Inside Tabletop - What is the current state of the Wargaming Industry? (With Adam Loper)

[@mylesbuck1961]

This collaboration is the equivalent of the time Dillon met Dutch in Predator; a more powerful duo hasn't been seen since then.

[@danielmiller1826]

Which is which?

[@Smittumi]

What's the matter, Adam, Games Workship got you pushing too many movement trays?

[@danielmiller1826]

@@Smittumi LOL

[@ClaudiosCollection]

Couldn't agree more!!

[@kaibe5241]

@@Smittumi LMFAO!!!

[@Riley-uy5pe]

the tabletop dad levels are off the charts here

[@brenthartman502]

I represent this :)

[@ericfarrington366]

"People who love to play in worlds" vs. "playing in your own world" really resonated with me. Perhaps that is why I love to play "Dead" games and/or just make my own.

[@metalman895]

Absolutely! I love marvel but I’m not super interested in playing a tactical combat between established heroes. But if you gave me the tools to play out superhero stories that may or may not include marvel heroes I’d be super excited!

[@dannyslag]

I know a lot of people in their 20s who love the 40k lore and would want to play, but when you have a student loan payment larger than a mortgage and a doctor visit costs you $400 out of pocket due to the private insurance scam, and wages are down 30% from the prior generation, and GW minis now cost more than their equivalent weight in silver, there's no way.

[@bigmuthatrukka]

Perhaps people should look at historical wargaming. The figures and path to entry are way less, the Lore (we call it history) it's far more brutal than anything GW can dream up and actually happened. For the past 5000 plus years mankind has been murdering each other over land, resources, power, control and sometimes just because.

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

Time to move to the U.K., get some free healthcare and spend the money you save on one of our biggest industries - GW!!! Haha

[@liberalhyena9760]

In the interest of transparency, you should add that the potential immigrant to the UK will likely have to spend upwards of a year in uncomfortable temporary accommodation while their application is assessed and may end up being extradited to A Commonwealth country (and probably not their first choice). They will, of course, be free to spend as much of their capital on GW product in the meantime, while being prevented from earning a living.

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

@@liberalhyena9760 haha, yes there is indeed that. I work with asylum seekers and the whole system is some 40k level batshit bureaucracy.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

$400 for a visit to the doctor? 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

[@jamesmaas7244]

I'm in my own KZbin haven. So cool to see two together ❤️

[@cynthiamiller586]

You are absolutely right about how players of miniatures agnostic games seem to want guidance on what miniatures they "should" use. Even though in my company's game, Urban Manhunt, you can create your own hunters, we still have people asking if they could use such-and-such miniature.

[@sidewinder3694]

Really enjoy the perspectives from two OG's in the scene, many lucid points by both of you. would dig for you guys to do a state of the industry talk every few months or so if feasible

[@jgodwin17]

Great conversation from two of the best in the gaming community. I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned how hard it is for new people to get into the hobby. I am part of a huge Alpha Strike community in the Twin Cities metro, and at our store alone we have had 4 new players in the last few months who had attempted to get into the hobby through GW to find that their starter set was only a fraction of what they needed to play, and after trying the game with just the starter set they found it lacking. They all ended up up gravitating to Alpha Strike after talking to various people because the buy in to try it WITH A FULL ARMY is 70 dollar starter box. We essentially play a format where we play 250 points per scenario, which you select from a 350 point total list. You can build a complete 350 with the boxed set. If you want to change it up all you need to buy are a couple blisters of vehicles, maybe a stand or two of Battle Armor, and maybe another box of mechs. All that you can get for around 50-65 USD. Wish more of the games out there had a more accessible way to get started for new people. I really like that Catalyst and a lot of the smaller Indy games (the Relicblade starter springs to mind as a really well done one) are making true starter sets for new players, it’s just a shame that more loca stores don’t give Indy games a chance.

[@jgodwin17]

Also super excited to see what the new Snarling Badger game is!

[@AlxParrish]

Battletech is the future! Alpha Strike is the future! Wolfnet 350 is it!

[@jgodwin17]

@@AlxParrish for sure! It's really easy to get into, you can play competitively, casually, or narratively just as easily, and the Wolfnet 350 community is fantastic and welcoming. I've made so many friends through it that I do stuff with beyond Battletech.

[@brians4016]

We need the both of you to do more shows/streams together - two greats of the indie game scene coming together. Your energy with each is just fantastic!

[@danielmiller1826]

Great discussion. There's another aspect to miniature agnostic. Like you go into a shop, buy a bunch of GW miniatures you like, Buy the rulebook and start reading the rules. Realise the models you like and want to paint suck for actually playing the game. So I think it is nice to de-couple the hobby side from the gaming side somewhat, while still keeping some WYSIWYG.

[@cory7328]

My favorite two old guys of war gaming.

[@RozzCraft]

Hey, 25yo here that jumped in at 20 in 2019. My LGS had just heard GW changed from a minimum order to a minimum stock, and jumped in to try to nurture a Kill Team 2018 community. They got their demo box assembled and I dipped my toes with a box of Orc Boys. Then Warcry happened. They popped an original box to demo with, and the system was so smooth and models characterful I fell in love. It wasn't long after I had a better job that let me spend more, diving deeper but still leaning on the store's terrain and cards. During its life cycle, I eventually bought all 3 big boxes of WarCry 1.0 because my LGS provided a low-cost gateway experience, the initial box's value was undeniable, and a collection was obtainable. I have since fallen off of Warcry since it's become laden with what feels like big box churn. To tie it back in, as Ash is saying, there isn't an achievable, momentous product in the line anymore. I can't say "if you want into the hobby and are uncertain if you'll love it, this will at least be a weird board game you can break out every now and again with enough varied terrain you never need more." What's replaced them is Kill Team's junk piles and barricades Starter Set, Crypt of Blood's fences and 2 walls, then the ghosts of Big Boxes past in the 2 Bands + 1 Piece of Terrain sets. Nothing GW produces, save maybe Blood Bowl S2, look like a real game, let alone a real battle. For Warcry, while they look rad, the Gnarloaks were a mistake because of how much real estate they took up on sprue and how fiddly they were to assemble, which has led to where the game sits now. As long as GW is still leading as the face with the product formats they are, it's gonna be a hard sell to get folks in who can't put up the change and don't have folks aroud who can support what they lack. PS. This year was also my first Adepticon. Saw you in the distance Thursday but didn't have my vest I wanted to collect autographs on at the time. Cursed when I saw I missed ya. XD

[@manofaction1807]

Warcry is the new Mordhiem. The greatest game GW has made this decade, but abuses like a government mule.

[@explody7836]

I think a lot of the age stuff you're noticing is just the way the economy has played out for younger generations. I'm very fortunate that my wife and I could afford a house, but when we were renting, we kind of based out lives on the assumption that we might have to move in a year. I'm not getting into a hobby with build-in storage and workspace requirements if I'm going to have to pick up and move in a few months. I'm certainly not getting into something at GW's price point at that stage. Even though I've been able to afford to get into the hobby now, I still can't fly out to Adepticon. I can barely afford to take the time off at this point, much less drop the money on a flight, hotel, and pass -- and if I'm spending that kind of money, I'm spending it on something my wife and kids will enjoy, too.

[@darnokx9277]

I wanted this to be a thing for a long time - now it finally happened. AND I NEED MOAR OF IT!

[@12neef]

Awwww bleep! My two favorite content creators!! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🤩

[@Slurgical_3D_Terrain_Channel]

I know, this is absolutely brilliant.

[@AlexAttemptsTabletop]

I see you have good taste 😜 👏

[@Sammo212]

Adam’s conversational voice is so much deeper than his edited videos for his channel :D

[@TheWhizzard]

Probably a podcast setting for the audio processing wich boosts the lower end of your voice for easier/more pleasant listening. Although it could just be his voice is shot lol

[@AnarchicGoose]

Listening to the talk about being 'overfed' and the churn in armies is interesting. Dave Sirlin is a game designer who wrote a fascinating book about competitive play experiences and how the core of a good competitive game is that the rules don't change - or at least don't change quickly - so that players have the opportunity to develop mastery. All tabletop wargames evolve over time which prevents that to some extent, but I feel like Games Workshop products in particular suffer from trying to chase a competitive playerbase for a game which is fundamentally antagonistic to a truly competitive mindset.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Sirlin’s books are great. Excellent design reads even though they’re video game oriented it mostly translates experientially.

[@sentaijustice9207]

The depressing part about this is that GW (and other game companies) keep being pushed by a part of that competitive playerbase that is very vocal on the internet about how a game must be balanced and updated as fast and often as possible. I came to wish for the games I play not to be updated before a couple years, like the time of old GW. Pun intended with The Old World project now, but I genuinely came to wish game designers pause for a longer time on that trend.

[@Anarcho_slimer]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Sixth edition Warhammer is considered one of gws greatest hits, there is a huge amount of nostalgia for that time and those rules and it's interesting that sixth edition lasted six years. from gws position they considered this period stagnant, they didn't feel they were moving enough product, they felt they were in trouble, so this is probably where the crystallised 3 or 4 year game lifecycle came from. But that "stagnancy" led to a golden age for wargamers where metas developed naturally rather than being essentially being pushed down from above every 3 months. I don't know the best way to handle the introduction of new rules or rebalances into a games ecosystem, but I think at this point it's fair to say gws current method isn't good.

[@sentaijustice9207]

@@Anarcho_slimer I honestly think the competitive scene is eventually going to kill the game, like they did in Warmachine / Horde or even with Guild Ball. Indies definitely aren't immune to that phenomenon, we can also see that in Mantic Games' Kings of War where the push for competitive scene and need for "balance" is taking more and more time from game designers. Corvus Belli and Para Bellum too. And when you try to talk about that on social medias, more often than not, people advocating that balance is the only thing that matters for being "a good game" are definitely more vocal than the others - and try to silence other voices by saying they're "in the minority". It's really a vicious cycle, IMHO. That's why I totally understand Ash when he said he hopes competitive scene will not be taking over The Old World - and sadly, what I see on my TOW group, that move is already trying to happen from old Warhammer Battle tournament players.

[@ClockworkAnomaly]

@@sentaijustice9207 As a game designer myself, I would say you want 10-15 years. Let games be generational, as opposed to episodic. Add new stuff rather than changing rules. Be more thoughtful about the rules in the first place, or tell people to stop caring about the rules and give them better ways to play stories instead. The current "Objectives with points" based games really don't do stories well at all. It all feels so empty of meaning. Yet Campaigns are near impossible to get going. We need something different on that front for sure. I think the reason people push more changes faster is the search for the solution to this emptiness. Perhaps something similar to the lifepath roller on some RPGs, but for battles, whereby you get a detailed (not 3 step, like : mission/layout/submission, but rather "Army A is [low on supplies] due to [dire wolves] but must [attack]. Army B [Has an incompetent commander] who [says we must counter charge rather than holding the defenses]." This is a much better and more "living" way to set up the standard "Meeting Engagement" whereby you now now what is happening and why to some degree, and so you can actually have a narrative game at the table without needing a gamemaster with 10 hrs on hand to plan it.

[@BeastWreck]

My 13 year old son has gotten HEAVILY into Warhammer over the past two years, and we both went to Adepticon for the first time this year. He loved it, and it seemed to further solidify his interest in the hobby. We didn’t see many other young folk there, though. He’s even hesitant to try and get his friends into the hobby because he realizes how expensive it is and he doesn’t want to saddle them with that money drain. 😅

[@gideongallant1185]

If he's interested in 3D printing there's that option. And it will teach him new skills along the way to collecting a Warhammer army Alternatively your son could start with Kill Team or Stargrave or the like. Something with a low model count so it would be easier to get friends into the game or to just have multiple forces

[@joken-actual]

Lovely conversation. My little group, ‘The Three Musketeers’ (clue’s in the name), were pleasantly surprised that we could get Silver Bayonet Egypt at the Salute London show in April 24 (6 weeks early). Our first game, with painted minis, terrain and monsters will be next month (October). That is a real life gaming cycle for just three gamers. GW and others, release products faster than even Contrast Paints can cope with.

[@JRufu]

This is such a great conversation. I wish these guys had more content together.

[@falconashek8913]

My two favorite miniature war gamers at the same time. I don’t even play miniature games, save for X-Wing miniature first edition, Mage Knight skirmish game and HeroClix. I play with friends, not competitive at all. I can just sit, watch and be so drawn into the great content created. Amazing episode!

[@glennguimond1323]

You’re right about the age of people playing and going to conventions. I think that Atom is right, it’s money. Prices, at least in the USA, have increased while salaries have remained static.

[@misomiso8228]

23:51 thing is a lot of young people just have no money now. Warhammer and miniatures are so expensive as a hobby that it's just not viable anymore. Crafts as a hobby generally are expensive next to the digital. Also video games are now SO GOOD at scratching the competitive 'high math' turn based itch. A lot of the people who WOULD have gone into the hobby now just stay in video games. Not only do you have great Indie's like Slay the Spire and Into the Breach, but also the Big Boys like Team Fight Tactics. 28:49 an Irony about starter sets, is that the older sets may have had simple models that all looked the same, BUT that meant you got a lot of them and got to practise! Some of those warcry models are bonkers! Starter set with simple models please GW!!

[@ClaudiosCollection]

Such a blessing and treat to see Adam on your show, Ash. Love both of your channels, and this was such a great conversation between two legends of the industry! Cheers!

[@coreysullivan422]

on the topic of licensed games: I developed Mobile Arms to be the quintessential "Armored Core" experience on the tabletop. We developed it and BSS ran the backroom to fund it in 2023, and about a month and a half before Adepticon... the tabletop rights for Armored Core 6 went up for grabs. I'm excited to build out an original setting, but it's always interesting to think about the possibility if we had held off development by 6 months.

[@MidnightSkyGames]

This discussion about the industry and bringing business and money into this thing to keep it alive was enlightening and eye- opening for a guy looking to leave the grind and go into games industry full- time. You guys are great!

[@M.Melnick]

Super happy when this appears on my feed! I really enjoy the videos both of you do. Thanks for doing this together, it's like a crossover episode.

[@Slurgical_3D_Terrain_Channel]

That is one thing I’m working towards, having a storefront and gaming area with 3D printers in the back to sell my terrain, terrain from other designer and print on order for local players.

[@timothyyoung2962]

What got my son into miniature games was my Heroscape game and all the miniatures I had collected for it. That was a great game. Preprinted minis, cool geomorphic, stackable game board pieces, nice terrain, character cards, and simple rules with some dicey goodness. Him and I played the hell out of that game. From there, he got into This Is Not A Test, and then 40k. Now we play Stargrave, Reign In Hell, Space Weirdos, and The Doomed, to name a few we love. Still have Heroscape, and we crack it open now and then just to play it like when he was 7. It's still a fun game.

[@knoxhobbylife]

This collaboration is such a breath of fresh air. Hearing from two individuals that I respect greatly for their bravery and honesty in content creation and advocating for this wonderful hobby.

[@TheInquisitor7]

this was great. i have hit the point of "i have too many miniatures, what else can i do with them" and have dipped into the min agnostic realm. OPR has been the gateway for me since I have such a mob of different TTGs i like to play.

[@bassistcz]

Two of my all time favourite hobby heroes chatting. Solid gold, love the video, love this series.

[@tabletop.will.phillips]

This was a really spectacular conversation. FTW it's worth, I absolutely resonated with the segment about release cycles and the time it takes to complete (larger) projects, i.e. the big GW games. It's one of the reasons I've pivoted to other rule sets... and am glad I never got around to actually assembling that Drukhari army I started to pick up boxes for in 9th. Most of that army would have been unusable at this point.

[@AlxParrish]

The thermals are fucking fantastic. Good shoutout. Also Battletech fucking rocks.

[@piotrjeske4599]

I know one thing . In the 90s the hobby was SUPER expensive (our parents nade 100-150$ per month), yet we still played. Games grew, stuff changed , more games and game companies came. What l noticed now , all across my country, is that there are no kids, no teens. Gamers are mid 30s , early 40s. It is a miracle to find a 20y old. I have no idea, how the hobby is going to look here in 10 years, never mind 20.

[@matthewf20]

Our "one thing" that we landed on recently was just to stick to One Page Rules, sometimes Fantasy, sometimes Skirmish but just more fun than the treadmill of AoS.

[@itsallfunandgames723]

I didn't realize Uncle Atom got into the hobby at a later age, but I went to most of the US Games Days in Baltimore through the 90s, and I can say first hand that a very large proportion of the attendees were young people. A large number were teenagers, let alone 20-somethings. For there to be hardly any young people at these conventions hanging around GW's booths, is crazy sounding.

[@stephenoshea3471]

This was one of the most intelligent, well-informed and insightful conversations about the hobby I've heard. Great video. Please consider a podcast with both of you

[@ryanstephens5972]

My first wargame was One Page Rules' Grimdark Future. Very simple to learn and you dont need to drop hundreds on minis. Then, this last year (age 32) I got into Battletech. And just now am getting into Fallout Wasteland Warfare

[@n3dstark]

When you talk about yourselves as veterans of the scene, with underappreciated wisdom, I'm reminded of one of my favourite Horus Heresy characters, Iacton Qruze, 'The Half Heard' who was, like your good selves, just awesome.

[@vocenoctum2046]

You mentioned the improvement in the mini's for Conquest, it's because they switched to Archon Studios (in Poland) making their stuff. Very good quality.

[@catherinedalzell3183]

I would love to see Conquest do well. I love the minis, it's not GW and it's not licensed.

[@nathanmcgowan5198]

Very interesting conversation about wargaming and the companies. You made a comment about the midsized companies and although it doesn't look like they're in the fantasy and Sci-Fi space they do exist in the Historical space. I don't know if Warlord are Large or Mid sized but companies like Perry Miniatures and Victrix are both sitting rather comfortably in that space and for with multiple ranges without being all things to all men. Maybe that is because people like me who got into 40K 5 years ago and hit that point in our hobby lives where we want to try New things and new games do move across to add historical games into our gaming rotation.

[@televiper11]

Glad Battletech is having a big resurgence

[@kitbashkingdom]

really fun watching this as a single sculptor making minis!

[@finnianjoyce-velez8079]

On behalf of the college age crowd, skipped this year because of life and money but the last 2 years I’ve left class on Wednesday/thursday afternoon and drove a couple hours out for adepticon. Don’t know how many people this represents but definitely met a few groups in their 20s. The guys who are doing mordheim and the grim dark stuff stand out, a bunch of guys in their late 20s pushing their art and the style movement. Had a great chat with them, everyone was super kind and passionate. Had the vibe of a punk show/merch table

[@mypipeaccount6575]

Got me at 54:00. We just started an FLGS that is intimately intertwined with 3D Printing, both in FDM and Resin.

[@kennethp1423]

Awesome combo of leaders in the industry

[@microforgeminis]

Loved this episode although you guys missed the best game from GW that is a licensed product - middle earth SBG. It’s the best game that GW produces and largely because it sits outside of their aggressive release schedule. The game is balanced and fun and works well in narrative and competitive modes

[@johnweibel1128]

I played GW. 40k, WFB, WHFRP, Blood Bowl, Space Hulk, back in the day. When i got married, tried to keep up. Couldn't. When I got back into the hobby I consciously came back to Historicals. Focusing primarily on WW2. Now have Black Seas, Victory at Sea, and multiple rule sets to choose from. When you get older, you realize trying to keep up is dumb. My figures are good forever. That means the only FOMO I am susceptible to are rule sets. And that's far less money then 1000 pt armies.

[@grimskald]

The exhaustion and product churn is real

[@gerunding]

Adam's mention of The Thermals makes me understand him as an artist completely now.

[@Bobyoudontneeemyname]

Right? Great band.

[@grendelb3298]

Great video! Have you guys noticed that Total War Warhammer 3 is getting better release vs play schedule than the models and tabletop games? I can actually play Old World in the video game, but I can’t play my factions on tabletop.

[@rDunfee]

Two of my favorite folks in the tabletop space having a chat. Couldn't ask for a better video

[@kaibe5241]

I think Uncle Atom comes across way cooler and more human in this format. Nice to see. haha

[@mikemartell365]

My two favorite KZbinrs in one place! Awesome 🤘🏼🔥🔥🤘🏼

[@beatjunky101]

My two OG youtube sources when I got back into the hobby...love it 😎

[@TommyG_love]

Awesome chat guys. Loved the analysis of the industry.

[@HB2K-h8m]

Another interesting discussion. Here in the UK we just had UK Games Expo which takes up 3 halls of a huge exhibition centre. Lots of retailers and manufacturers large and small. Super cool. What was interesting was that GW did not exhibit at all. Last year they had a big stand and ran demo games of 40k 10th edition which was due out several weeks later. This year, despite the imminent launch of 4th edition AOS and even though there was no Warhammer Fest this year, nada. Thought that was very interesting... Also, half the star wars stand was given over to demos of a new card game (? I'm not card player). And Battle Tech was getting a lot of love...

[@thedisgruntledorc]

Two of my favorite content creators in one place!

[@frederickrose3967]

don't normally get into these long form streams but this was good. I'm a lifer gamer Grognard and have been at it for 40 years. Your discussion rings true.

[@danielhall5554]

Great talk. This is definitely the content I need. I guess after being a store owner you never leave the industry mindset.

[@djtoddpharris9565]

It is a red letter day! Ash and Uncle Atom on the same show, awesome!

[@gabrielwannes9220]

This is like a marvel crossover with DC. I love it!

[@tbcross117]

This would be a great weekly podcast

[@Dun_Grizzly]

Imagine this being a regular. Maybe just like... once a month. These two titans with an occasional third guest person. Doing a deep dive "we were soldiers" talk. Daaaaaaaaamn.

[@aaroncrisp4690]

That's one big reason I love Malifaux so much. Just pick a boss box and your ready. It's very simple to build your force compared to bigger game like warhammer

[@matthewkimber4513]

After years of AoS I've just got into Malifaux and I'm loving it. Though I've gone a bit crazy buying different crews!

[@marcusanderson2157]

Where do you think Malifaux sits in miniature gaming world? I use to be big in my area but has dropped off a lot

[@aaroncrisp4690]

@@matthewkimber4513 me too. I have a goal set of focusing on the bayou. I'm gonna try and collect the whole faction over time

[@crann777]

​​@@marcusanderson2157Malifaux is perpetually that "in between" game that people pick up toward the end of an edition of their main game when they need something new, and it immediately suffers a quick death as soon as a new edition of said main game releases. It took Warmachine and Guild Ball's market niche in that regard.

[@Deabru3]

AMAZING VIDEO! My two favourite wargame youtubers together at last!! it is a delight to see you talking, you share very similar perspective and passion of this hobby. It would be great to see a video like this every month. Ash vs Adam! Guerrilla Minions

[@philiphale2785]

UK wargames shows are usually well balanced with families (typically father son, but not restricted to this this) as well as the older types (which sadly im slipping in to!).

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

Agree, tend to see a lot of kids in GW shops, Warhammer world and element games as well. Plus lots of families playing at our local club, in some tourneys like AoS and Blood Bowl.

[@mikebaker6804]

It's important that games and players put themselves in the public.

[@lukagarma674]

You two are some of my top 10 personalities to listen to on my commute or during painting. This video was dynamite. I'd love to see (hear? lol) more y'all chatting about anything tabletop!

[@tmorton42]

That is such a good discussion. And parallels my entry very closely. I started with xwing (prepainted!), tried runewars minis, couldnt get a game and got "squatted". Then said:"self, what is the biggest faction of the biggest game?" Ultramrines, 40k..so that's where I went. Pretty indie/skirmish gamer now with our little group, but really, to a newbie, 40k is the elephant to this day.

[@BartoszDebski]

Great chat, must agree with pretty much everything said.

[@marccaron6008]

I use my GW, TT Combat and Corvus Belli models to play agnostic rule sets like Fistful of Lead by Wiley Games. They've made sci-fi, post-apoc, fantasy, Battle suits Alpha, and other variations.

[@MichaelKloepfer68]

I played MTG in the 90s and that was what made me crazy is that by the time I built the current cards to a point of playability they changed the arc

[@eringrider]

This was an amazing conversation to hear really enjoyed it.

[@krzysztofmathews738]

This is a great conversation. Really glad to hear your insights and observations.

[@artistpoet5253]

I think it was very generous of Adam to sit for this video.

[@bayardbray4490]

I have found a really good near beer. I still enjoy a good beer with friends. The na beer has no alcohol yet the hops seems to give me an altered state of mind. There is such a large variety of alcohol free beers,I don't feel like I,m really missing out on a fun time. Cheers,your friend in Cheyenne, Bayard Bray.

[@MrGodzillafan801]

Loved the episode. I will say that where MTG and 40k will be played just about everywhere, the indie agnostics are the compilation punk albumns. Very reasonably priced, you get good content, and you can skip or replay the tracks you want.

[@Mikey__R]

The problem is, pocket money doesn't buy you any Warhammer, at all. If you're a teenager, you might get one squad for your birthday, or one vehicle for Christmas, and that's it. You can't grow a collection that way. GW price rises combined with the increases in cost of living, and almost unaffordable housing, both sides of the Atlantic, are shutting out younger players financially dependent on their parents, and slightly older players working two jobs and just about able to cover their rent. Warhammer is really for guys like me, in their 40s with a decent amount of discretionary budget each month; but even we're moving onto other games like KoW, Malifaux and Infinity. Warhammer is exhausting.

[@richardpearce4988]

In my v.early teens, a blister pack of 5 (!) lead models was £2.50, which rose to £2.99, and something like Skeleton Horde with sprues for 30 plastic models and loads of spares and scope to model and improv was £5. As a teenager I could play. My understanding now is that a plastic model as part of a box set is about £5 ($7-$) each...

[@thevuntzer]

two of my favorite content creators. awesome chat.

[@jakec5550]

This was a very cool discussion! It's great to see two of my favorite tabletop youtubers have discussions like this. Maybe next time you could play something that you both play. (Maybe Ash can show Uncle Atom the wonders of Infinity, or not it's cool) But, I hope this is the first of many meetings between you guys. This was fun.

[@BwfVid]

Great discussion guys! I agree with a lot of what you all were talking about.

[@leew6537]

All out war is still for me was a brilliant starter set. They even undersold it by not mentioning that a paper playmat came with it.

[@donjardine8734]

Brilliant vid guys. Love battletech from the first release (69 yo) the lore is complete to the game current date, so the original novels are as valid now. The best game I ever gamemastered my friend came to me at the break mid game and said "we're not playing Gangster are we? We're playing Call Of Cuthulu." I'm now enjoying discovering the Fallout universe.

[@threeohm]

I tried to get back into 40K after a long absence, but the conveyer belt of new releases was just too fast. I could get going fast enough to climb aboard. I settled into Battletech. It's rules products don't go obsolete the same way GW's do and the release cycle is a reasonable pace to stay interested without drowning. I did find an old copy of Space Hulk I bought for some 40K flavour, I grabbed a reprint of Rogue Trader for nostalgic feels and I think I am going to get into Necromunda. GW can't get releases to the Underhive quite as fast!

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

I feel like you can comfortably engage with their products if you’re doing it for your own gaming purposes and not follow along with the releases as much!

[@DukeTodd100]

Very good conversation. Two of my favorite personalities. Should do a battle report together for example Last Days.

[@AF-kj2zl]

I enjoy hearing your thoughts and the interesting people you have on. I love this format you're doing!

[@christopherdilloway4836]

I have some of the original Battletech TROs and even the rule book...and it's still usable. They've come out with new stuff, new models, new weapons...but the older stuff is still good and the rules haven't largely changed...unlike the constant churn of new rules and new content and new material with GW games where the rules, weapons loadouts, books, etc all change every two years and you're stuck with stuff that just doesn't work anymore. :( I also found myself nodding along with the conversation that there aren't many younger people entering these kinds of games and hobbies these days. I've been to events or shows where I'm one of the younger people and I'm in my 40s. I always liked building and painting and coming up with characters and stories and then playing with models...pretty much in that order but I don't see my kids having those same things...they prefer having stuff beamed into their brains rather than create things of their own and a lot of that has to do with their own social circles and friends at school. They're doing what's popular to have stuff to talk about and I think that's part of why there's not as many younger people in games these days...and things just change so fast and so much, it's almost a full-time job to keep up with media these days but for me, I prefer to have a slower pace and do my own thing not just what's popular for this fifteen minutes.

[@jasoncrutchfield1443]

This was great content and a great temperature of our hobby great job and thanks to both of you for making this happen.

[@jonathandavis4819]

Awesome episode. Love seeing you guys talk about a space you love.

[@Frozt001]

This was interesting to listen to. As to why there isnt alot of younger people at adepticon, there's a plethora of possible reasons. Part of it is a slow growth of interest into the hobby of assembling, painting, then playing, then you have the competition for attention with KZbin, Tiktok, and gaming, on top of overall cost of entry and the problems with economies in USA, Canada, and the rest of the world.

[@cynthiamiller586]

Best KZbin crossover EVER!

[@JasonCookingham]

Thank you for the video. It was interesting for someone not in the hobby. As a board gamer and rpg'er, I know myself and some others would be interested in skirmish/wargaming--- but there is little interest in building or painting miniatures. 3d printing and etsy have made the building part a bit better-- but the painting issue is still there. Lots of blobs of grey on a battlefield isn't too fun.

[@mattgroditski3547]

Gooooooooo!!!! This will be legendary

[@iampetewyse]

Starter set topic... I would add Mantic's "The Walking Dead: All Out War". Everything you needed in the box, a good price point, and a well known IP.

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

Blood Bowl is another good shout (any edition), or the LoTR SBG, or even the recent Warhammer ToW release.

[@iampetewyse]

@@PRAISE_HASHUT GW isn't what I would call affordable :-)

[@ant6227]

This was a great discussion, wish some of the larger companies out there were listening. Mantic is probably the company I think could use this advice most, they make a competitor for every game GW makes and when they're not doing that they're taking on another license, Hellboy, worms, Halo, etc. wish they would just pick one or two of their games and focus on them. Deadzone is in my opinion the best skirmish game on the market but it gets about two releases a year because Mantic is so busy throwing another dart they hope will stick.

[@JoeyJoJoJoestarJuniorShabadoo]

I'm not gonna lie, years ago for a little while I thought you two were the same person with multiple youtube channels.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

You’re not alone

[@Kevin.Mitchell]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames Technically, we've still not seen them both in the same shot... that could have been anyone's left hand.

[@tomwisniewski8988]

​@@Kevin.Mitchell It's Jay's hand.

[@TheBjarkow]

Notice, they are never in the same shot together. Coincidence???

[@darnokx9277]

@@TheBjarkow The magic of video editing is a pathway to things some would consider to be unnatural.

[@robbyv101]

" You and I are very much alike. [game design] is our religion, yet we have both fallen from the purer faith. Out methods have not differed as much as you pretend. I am a shadowy reflection of you. It would take only a nudge to make you like me, to push you out of the light." - Ash Belloq

[@redviego6714]

Fan of both channels. Been watching since I started wargaming back in 2021 (3yrs now) and currently 27. The biggest issue to wargaminh from my experience has been trying to find space and time to play. For stuff like dnd, we were able to transition online to maintain weekly games. But wargames need people to meet in person and depending how far you live from each other, it becomes tough to enjoy. In my group, I'm the main one with table space and well room to play and host wargame hangouts. But some people live 30min - 1hr 30min apart from me so they can't come regularly to game. And as we became older with jobs, when we meet up, some people just wanna chat and play some video games since there is only 2s set up and you're good to go, where as a wargame is 10min setup and 1hr for one game.