Tactical Marines Vs Despoilers - Horus Heresy 2.0 - Age Of Darkness

[@razalfraz6618]

I just wanna say as an iron warrior player you’ve inspired a lot of my kitbashes mainly my rapiers as weapon teams and general tank set ups

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Thanks mate! glad I could provide the inspiration! If your on insta let me know your handle so I can follow along!

[@danielkochis5133]

The local heresy players in my hood stick to 1 dreadnought per thousand points.

[@jacksunaway8194]

My group does the same!

[@Instar_nine]

We do similar in nz 1 per 1k

[@abbadonslostarms-kbd1393]

Same

[@BearfootMiniatures]

tbh other than the game that shall not be named I dont see people going too wild on them (beyond 1per1000) round here really, but even 3 dreads is massive for the game I think

[@Mancboy2000]

26:06 Power Mauls are S+2 AP3, striking at Iniative. They're the best option if you're fighting Power armoured enemies or worse. They Instant Death T3 units, and wound marines on a 2+, no saves allowed. It's the only Power Weapon I ever consider besides Power Axes.

[@st.valentine9758]

The nice thing about Tacticals in Raven Guard is that you can infiltrate them to start the game so they don't have to move again and Fury of the Legion from the start of the game. It gives even smaller groups a surprising amount of fire power for just 100 points.

[@klasclaywood2667]

Loved this type of discussion

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Thanks mate! Really glad you enjoyed it, was nice to do a less cut and dry discussion format

[@padanfain7466]

Just a note on the Ultramarines here. Most of the time I play around the +1WS/+1 Charge part of the Logos Lectora right of war. Despoilers at WS5 are no joke. I go 2 to 1. So run 2 squads of tacs and 1 squad of despoilers just as a distraction from my other melee units. (i.e. Suzerain, Locutaros, Command squad, veterans, etc). 2 tacs to hold objectives and pew pew, one despoiler to charge up and take mid field objectives and cause a threat to other players tacs/despoilers.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Good shout here really: may need to add despoilers to my must paints for the ultras

[@ed8930]

I've been playing Alpha Legion recently and I pretty much agree with what you say, if you want extra melee you just steal an elite unit from another legion. Mostly I'm using Recon/Seeker and Headhunter units but I do take tactical squads occasionally, recently I have been messing around with several 10-20 man Inductii units for turn 1 fun, give them infiltrate with Dynat and move them within range of an enemy squad and unload on them turn 1, they cannot return fire. Then in their turn they can't shoot them either so have to move around them or charge them. Used it a few times to clear out Lascannon HSS and generally move block the whole enemy army.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

That’s actually a great usage for that inductii unit: alphas have such great little combos!

[@jarrydwroe706]

For Iron Hands a despoiler squad can take 3 grav pistols with a multi-melta on its rhino, it becomes a handy tin can opener or a unit to take care of those one-wound annoyances.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Great shout here; those buried grav weapons really help (especially vs dreads)

[@theemissary1313]

And like that, I prep some Iron Hands Allies into EVERY list!!! Also given their grav moritat, it makes vehicles and dreadnoughts very vulnerable...

[@abbadonslostarms-kbd1393]

The cc stuff tends to struggle for me,just for how good shooty legions can be with traits active in multiple phases and at range rather than just the charge phase / first fight phase. I put bayonets or chain bayonets on my SoH and BA because it just fits their brutality. I think chainswords being 5ppm is to push you into having a reason for despoilers. 3ppm would be abit more fair. I love breachers but they are just too costly for what you lose/ gain.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

agreed on all points really: as the shooty legions whittling down CC ones before the assaults hit is an indirect buff to melee anyway! Agreed on the points, and adding chainswords to the breachers I think!

[@MayhapsOmegon]

For Alpha Legion, I run both a Tactical and a Despoiler Squad, the latter is to act as a speed bump against melee armies. They’re also good for Smoke & Mirrors advanced reaction to move up further and get closer for easier charges. I’ve done the Inductii trick listed above to great effect too. One other combo I’m liking is Breachers with graviton to sit on an objective (usually opposite a Dreadnought) and make themselves -4” to being charged.

[@AndrewPeverells]

Again, I think you're missing out on potential TS combos. Despoilers with an apothecary in them can have two different arcana powers, and you can give them pyrae and pavoni. Suddenly you have a despoiler squad that has +3 movement (and ignores difficult terrain) and hammer of wrath 2, making them very flexible, mobile and even powerful in melee. That's potentially really scary. Secondly, even for tacticals, with an apothecary to give them both raptora and pavoni: you have a line unit that moves 10 and has a 6++ invuln (with the possibility of having a 3++ with the advanced reaction) and a 4+++ fnp within an objective range. This makes them very durable and arguably better than most other legions at holding objectives. I think overall TS can work really good with both, depending on what you need. They're a very tactical and nuanced legion, you need to think a lot on your choices beforehand.

[@jacekk3747]

With apothecary being pary of the unit, can you Have both minor arcana active at the same time?

[@AndrewPeverells]

​​@@jacekk3747 yup, you couldn't at first but it was faq'd then. Only "issue" is that you have to make the whole apothecary detachment the same arcana, so you can't pick a different arcana for every single apo. But you can take multiple detachments, so...

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I find TS a bit of a blank spot for me, weve not had any players in the area so ive only faced them once. I dont think theyre terrible, just have to rely on luck to pull off their bonuses (especially with it being effected by nighttime) Thats good to know on the apothecaries, saying that theres none atm were gaining two TS players so ill pass this gem along to them!

[@AltoStratusX1]

​@AndrewPeverells where was this faq? The apothecary is a character "If a unit includes more than one model with the Character Unit Sub-type then all those models must select the same upgrade from this special rule. No model may have or use more than one option from this special rule, unless another special rule specifically states that they can:" There isn't a specific rule saying apothecaries can have multiple arcana is there?

[@UntiltedName]

For Death Guard the Rad Grenades has had me tempted to try Despoilers. However, it feels like all it would really do is give me an edge vs marines in non-assault focused armies. Which I'd do just as well throwing 40-60 some odd bolter shots in their face instead. Rad grenades wont stop them from getting punked by a dedicated melee legion. But the conundrum is, with that rite of war, you can just run vets who have WS5 and rad nades so... idk, despoilers are a hard sell.

[@andrewsharratt2399]

You're totally right! Assault marines by far outshine despoilers in DG, reaping sucks for both units by preventing run and move reacts. Creeping death really let's the shenanigans take off.

[@UntiltedName]

@@andrewsharratt2399 Well, you dont get Rads in CD. Sadly. So there's nothing going for them aside from avoiding terrain rolls.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Maybe an assault pack command squad?! Despoilers defiantly have a tight niche as being just that little bit better than tacticals but not carrying the game by themselves.

[@myrar8708]

veterans are super cool and underused I wish my RoW would buff them I would def use them

[@Don_Juan89]

Nothing more fluffy, glorious and better than the good old tactical squad. Sad that they always suck so hard.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

agreed: changing fury to every turn is a nice buff but maybe bolters need breaching or something to reduce armour saves (or whatever really, cos they should be blowing people apart based on the books)

[@paulshaw3907]

In the lore Marines often complain about how bad chainswords and bolters are at killing marines. That and supply issues is why CQC because increasingly popular during the Heresy.

[@Don_Juan89]

@ barefoot: I agree. I think tactical squads when they are in rapid fire range or able to fury of the Legion should get breaching, to simulate the pure hail of armor piercing, explosive shells taking a tool on even the heaviest and thickest of plates. It's such a shame that horus heresy allways defends into this elite unit spam fest and the idea of these huge clashes of the massed lines of the Legions disappears

[@paulshaw3907]

@@Don_Juan89 Instead of changing weapons I think that for only for tactical and despoiler squads adding extra marines should be cheaper. 5 points each not 10.

[@Infernal_Puppet]

Great video mates!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Thanks mate! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@mikedewberry5833]

Interesting video and something to think about especially as an Iron Warrior player

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Glad you found it interesting mate: Im not gonna be putting loads of expectation into the despoilers armed like that but theyll be a fun unit!

[@AndyPaintsPoorly]

Iron Warriors always need someone to charge the breach I need to try some out

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Bring in the despoilers!! (After hordes of chaff/human auxiliaries obv)

[@jellydamgood]

Confirmed raven guards are worms.

[@andrewsharratt2399]

Great episode! Powerfist sergeants aren't as useful this edition as a lot of the things that a krak grenade can't deal with are WS5. Yeah it's great doubling out terminators and vets but only one of your swings will hit on the charge and they will likely have an invulnerable save to reduce your odds of a kill even more. I'd rather double down on bullying other similar units with the cheaper power axe. Against most units your serg will get called out for a challenge and mulched by a better equipped fighter anyway.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I agree, with the WS4 the value of the fists definitely gone down think but for me personally i do like the opportunity to squash fools

[@tomgardner2253]

I love Despoilers but I think they need to be in a big blobs, units of 10 just dont cut it imo. For White Scars, have run a unit of 20 with a Chappy (cyber hawk) and a apoth. As many power weapons as I can fit in with some success.The re-roll 1 to hit in combat, plus the +2 to charge is pretty nice.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I agree really, 15+ I think and my dislike of tac blobs at 20 doesn't really extend to despoilers! Nice little scars bonuses there really! Its a shame the inductii cant have a character added!

[@NobleNayrb]

As an Alpha Legion Player, I use tactical marines. I have a squad of despoilers for some cat and mouse/ counter charge. It does alright.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Glad we didn’t get a massive swing and a miss on that one then!

[@jamesespinosa690]

Thanks for another great video!! Not finished yet. But I wanted to ask you guys, how would you cost the pistols in HH?? I've always thought they were waaaay to expensive.

[@jamesespinosa690]

Also, you are 100% correct. Iron Warriors are not a "gun line". They are Siege Breakers. They are tied with Blood Angels and World Eaters for being the most aggressive and blood thirsty legions. Even the Wolves don't make the list (oddly). I really feel like their legion trait in 2.0 has let them down big time. I much prefer their 1.0 trait.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I think like 5pts for a plasma, 2 for serpent as really, you get one chance to fire them and ye you get an additional attack having a pistol and a cow but most SM units atleast have a pistol for that already so that price is already “paid” They’re in a bit of a wierd spot really as you fire them from an assault unit and your only really making your charge longer or suffering a return fire so they’re sort of odd one out

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@BearfootMiniatures Sounds about right to me. I was thinking recently. What if you could shoot pistols on units that are locked in CC?? Or maybe do something where you can use the your pistols weapon profile in CC for 1A (per pistol). I really want to see them make pistols useful and fun!!! Id love it if there if players had to make a serious choice on what kind of side arm to equip your guy with! Edit: Even making it some kind of reaction could be an interesting option! On the flipside, perhaps they could make it so you can overwatch at full BS with pistol type weapons!!! Which kind of fits their IRL tactical niche now that I think about it.

[@Swarzyc]

As the Talaskar player I just would like to say For the Khan!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

While I cant echo the words (only Iron Within) I admire the enthusiasm!

[@lonelysandbar]

So I need to run 16 + apothecary for word bearers!? :D Honestly blocks of 20 with corrupted of either is massive for WB due to just tar-pitting stuff.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

There you go, selling yourself on it!

[@abbadonslostarms-kbd1393]

Mate plays Sals. Poor guys need a boost. Only way to not get wiped easy is taking nothing but drakes,pyros and dreads

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Ye man 100% agree with you here really, outside of that it’s just the good generic units I see for them (no curveballs made good by their legion trait specifically)

[@theemissary1313]

Given a bolt pistol is worth 6 points and a chainsword is worth 5, together they are worth more than the marine wielding them...

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Nothing makes any sense anymore!

[@ero9841]

Ive been using power mauls on my Sargeants now. Been working pretty good. Stop bringing artificer

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Good shout tbh mate, with how wounds are allocated now I think the game flows better without sergeants with artificer (IMO)

[@andrewmarrington5654]

Great discussion. I think you skipped Iron Hands but I think the answer for them would probably be Tactical Marines anyway, right?

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Did we!? I actually think both are great for iron hands, the -S to shooting I think actually really helps armies set up for assault as you don’t weather the damage getting to combat

[@andrewmarrington5654]

@@BearfootMiniatures I hadn't thought of it like that... hmmm maybe I need to build some Despoilers after all! :)

[@glefic]

​@BearfootMiniatures It's Len from Chicago. Do me a favor I'm looking into Knights for Age of Darkness, if you know anything about them or have a buddy that does do a video on that subject for me. Thanks buddy looking forward to AdeptiCon hope to see you there

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Can definitely put something together (phils 'just' built a knight army and had some games so) can give our thought on their use after fighting them and phils experience with them definitely! 100% mate, trying to sort it to do chicago then seeing my sister (which is what I did last time) so should be on for the trip!

[@jellydamgood]

If you play Traitor World Eaters and run tac over despoilers.... Then perhaps its time to find another legion. 🙂

[@crwarren]

1 troop choice vs another = 1 hour video

[@BearfootMiniatures]

hahaha It was needed! Its such a big topic this specific one!

[@smellslikemachinespirit4255]

Im here for it

[@philipbirkmaier8320]

Power Mace is AP 3!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Don’t know why but it’s really stuck in my head as ap4, I had to edit it out of the elites vid recently

[@philipbirkmaier8320]

@@BearfootMiniatures It was in 40k of old and in HH 1, far better now.

[@fitnessandinjury]

Funny af

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Cheers mate!

[@crwarren]

Back off Phil... I am Alpharius

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Im Spartac.. Alpharius

[@MrKieras666]

🎉first