Why Magic Systems don't feel Magical

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What even is a "magic system"? It's a word that gets tossed around a lot in the fantasy-writing and worldbuilding communities. It certainly has its uses, but there seems to be something much deeper at play, here. Something that questions the very nature of "magic" itself.
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[@_.-._.-Y0K0-._.-._]

I think the "It's not magic, it's waterbending" moment is another good example. Water bending is magical to Sokka, but reality to Katara.

[@FrarmerFrank]

And the reason Ty-Li Iron finger technique is "disturbing" is she can temporarily break the body's chi's connection to the element's "spirit" which is felt physically and mentally which is why Katara was afraid of Ty-Li for a while

[@Umlee-Kerymansrivarrwael]

I misread that as "it's not magic, it's waterboarding" which is a little different, lol.

[@01MEGABOB]

@@Umlee-Kerymansrivarrwaelthat’s CIA magic. Lol.

[@aqualust5016]

The Force is magic to some but just a higher understanding of reality to others

[@andrewramlall3560]

​@@Umlee-Kerymansrivarrwael "it's not waterboarding, they're enhanced interrogation techniques!"

[@IronDino]

To quote Clarke, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." To quote Niven, "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science." And to quote Pratchett, "It doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works."

[@mitchellzollinger1100]

Who among us apply this logic to smart phones?

[@seriousmaran9414]

​@Mitchell Zollinger my father used to apply this to a chess program. To him it was intelligent, to me it was dumb but could beat you with knowing the moves.

[@rikospostmodernlife]

The Pratchett quote reminds me of a House m.d. chapter where he treats a stage magician. The magician is a true believer in the art -something along the line of "reality is misery and only deceit is wonderful"- and has a discusion with House; House ends the discusion saying something like "if revealing the trick destroys it's marvel, maybe it wasn't marvelous to begin with"

[@Reddotzebra]

I guess the only one missing is "It doesn't stop being technology because you don't know how it works."

[@RamBam3000]

And to quote Benford: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."

[@starblade8450]

Full Metal Alchemist embraces this video's message pretty well I feel. Alchemy is just a form of science, no matter how magical it seems to the uninitiated. When Ed and Al were in Reole, watching Father Cornello perform miracles for a crowd, they saw alchemy that broke the rules, theorizing that it was done with a Philosopher's Stone, while the crowd saw divine will of their god.

[@matthhiasbrownanonionchopp3471]

I never had a time in FMA when I felt alchemy wasn't magic

[@christianlangdon3766]

​@matthhiasbrownanonionchopp3471 yea even the characters start to address this with the knowledge of how alchemy tends to screw with the perception of those who use it. Kimbly being of notable example. Becouse the knowledge of the system doesn't take away the cost of the system itself. One can't unlearn the truth.

[@batmeme9349]

Read witch hat atelier, it has one of the best magic systems by far

[@Xenothios]

FMA was great because it married both soft and hard magic. It was firm and structured on the surface, but when you broke past that and learned about the nature of alchemy itself, it became softer and more esoteric. Equivalent exchange, or even the implication of it is fine and all, and you see it working 95% of the time, but when it breaks down because you're talking to the locus of alchemy itself and you have to *convince* it that something is equivalent? Well all the rules basically go out the window.

[@PhoenicopterusR]

​@seraf8297 so what you're saying is that alchemy really runs on a bartering system.

[@ريّان-ذ4ت]

This is why I love how magic works in the world of the witcher, you get a sense that there's some fundamentals to it, but we never really learn those, and even still, there are stuff like curses which work very differently from spell casting, and even geralt struggles with figuring them out

[@kimhyunwoo8983]

Yeah I think a huge reason that works is because of how magic became a thing in their world. It’s not something native to the world and the main people who gained access to magic were women who were quickly treated as hostile and were hunted so of course most knowledge of magic/sorcery is hidden or not explained. But at the same time there has been like 1,500 years of time with magic so there are a decent amount of accounts of its usage but not enough to be broad knowledge.

[@kaizo4217]

Let me just say, the animation at the beginning of your robot character grabbing that book and opening it is one of the smoothest things I've ever seen, and your voice is so soft, i bet if you read a sad story id be 10x more likely to cry to it

[@kaizo4217]

Yep, i teared up when you started explaining the perspective of the kid for the rabbit,..it made me think of my childhood, you have what it takes sir

[@sourdface]

That was a really good animation. I wasn't expecting it and was pleased to see it.

[@hayond656]

It gives off a Certain vibe I don't know what it's called but I really like it

[@skamosthedestroyerofworlds]

Although I still miss the old intro, i completely agree.

[@aeginsilverblood2070]

An interesting thing in Brandon Sanderson’s books is that the characters typically don’t see what they can do as “magic”. To them it’s just a natural part of the world like electricity or gravity. It’s only when someone from another world shows up that has access to abilities they’ve never seen before that they consider something “magical”

[@carso1500]

Travel back in time to the medieval era with a cellphone and a apache helicopter and you will be considered a god

[@weedweeb9211]

@@carso1500 Basically what happened to the isolated island that starts worshipping the supply helicopter

[@fearedjames]

Stormlights actually very cool with this. Magic is represented as mystical to characters who do not know what they are doing, and science and technique to those that do. As they learn magic, it becomes less mystical and this change in perspective helps subtly change the story to fit the increasingly capable characters. So things like shards are always portrayed pretty much as normal shit, since everyone knows how shards work. Its why I felt Way of Kings opening with Sseths assassination of Gavilar as a huge drawback for the book. Really bad to immediately clearly define Lashings when later characters using them are supposed to be lost and confused, causing an awkward disconnect of the reader and character.

[@Grim_Bud]

@@weedweeb9211 then run out of fuel fairly quick.

[@tudornaconecinii3609]

@@fearedjames The one funny thing about the duality between "invested arts are magic" vs "invested arts are science" in Brandon's Cosmere is that when "mentors" impart "wisdom" upon protagonists, they don't do it like stereotypical fantasy wizened old men, but like budget Richard Feynmans. Like, you know the scene from Rhythm of War when Kaladin went to Zahel for advice, and Zahel basically gave him a physics lesson? I'd hate it if all fantasy was like that, but *someone* doing it is nice.

[@Sonic62920]

I think the best way for magic to feel both consistent and magical is to keep any particular type of magic consistent in its theming, but esoteric in its uses. For example, take fire. Fire burns, yes, but it can also bring warmth and comfort, and in addition is a common metaphor for emotions and their intensity. All of these can fall under uses for fire. Likewise, darkness. Mystery, concealment, and embodying the unknown. The dark is not just where monsters and evildoers lurk, it's the unknown, the birthplace of imagination, be it positive or negative. Consistency in theming, broad in application. And before anyone else comments, I have had absolutely ZERO exposure to Homestuck.

[@carlosalbuquerque22]

Basically what MTG does. And lovely take on darkness

[@tonoornottono]

@@carlosalbuquerque22 marjorie taylor greene? lol

[@seriousmaran9414]

Keep magic logical, unlike the Republican mindset...😂

[@Crowald]

It's why healing fire is very cool. That it can be used to burn, or that it can be used to mend. That the human body heals on its own, that must have looked like something truly magical to our ancient ancestors with zero understanding of the world around them. I can only imagine the fascination looking down at their hand and seeing a big lump of a scar where a gash used to be and thinking; "Why?"

[@windego64]

Basically Homestuck

[@thecluckster3908]

This is kinda why I love adventure times magic, it just does. It never gets explained, heck it even gets an entire episode dedicated to how there’s no science behind it, it’s great.

[@ussinussinongawd516]

i mean there is a hard elemental system in AT

[@thecluckster3908]

@@ussinussinongawd516 yeah but that’s like the one exception, and it’s still sort of vague cause it’s just “you’re born as one of the four elements and you can create a supply of that element, the end.” Not like a super in depth system.

[@InvaderZim897]

Which episode do you mean? I’m thinking of the one in which Princess Bubblegum keeps calling out how different “spells” work and demanding information from the vendor before buying a potion, etc, ultimately saying wizards are ridiculous and only call their craft magic because they don’t really know what they’re doing.

[@DaniAzakura]

I find this comment funny because I was about to say how Adventure Time does... the opposite. Well, that is from Princess Bubblegum perspective, as she literally explains this very video in one episode. She says that magic is just what lazy people call science. And even when Jake the "magic" dog asks her what he is and how he can do what he does, she says "you're a mutant" which he can't refute. xD

[@thecluckster3908]

@@InvaderZim897 yeah that episode

[@superheroesandaliens]

6:27 this actually brings to mind one of my favorite lines from the Disney series Gargoyles, when Titania refers to "the human magic that men call science." Not only does it imply that science is as strange and wonderful to practitioners of magic as magic is to practitioners of science, but that magic is on some level bound by laws and principles, even if we don't understand what they are.

[@Deathnotefan97]

All magic is bound by rules The rules don't need to make any sense (hell, a lot of the rules of physics don't make sense) or necessarily be compatible with physics, but there _has_ to be some self-consistency, otherwise you just have a case of "literally anything could happen at any time for no reason" and it becomes impossible to predict or harness, meaning there cannot be mages

[@SortOfEggish]

Yeah I guess, but science is literally just doing, observing, reporting, and redoing.

[@kyriss12]

Or it works by the Neil Gaiman principle. Reality is shaped by human will, when we believed in magic that was the guiding principle of the universe, and when we came up with rigid rules and structures that we were certain the universe had to follow that became the new paradigm. In a way that’s even more terrifying than what the fry do.

[@cykeok3525]

@@SortOfEggish Presumably, in an alternate reality where "magic" exists, the people there would also have to learn how to use it by applying the scientific method and engineering principles.. like you said, by observing, reporting, hypothesizing, analyzing, and then applying. There would be empirical research of what they are able to explore at the moment, and theoretical research into what they are not yet able to. They would not call it "science" or "engineering", of course, but it's the most efficient and effective way to explore it, and the greatest minds of that alternate reality would quickly come to the same conclusion. I notice it's a theme in a lot of fantasy settings, that it is set in a time that is "after a fall", where an ancient civilization was more advanced than the current ones. In this case, it is typical that the wizards/mages/sorcerers who did the original primary research are from long ago.. and the current magic users merely cast spells by rote without a proper full understanding. Some more advanced mages may find new ways to use the known principles, and they'd be aplomb to engineers. A few would delve further into the underlying principles, using experimentation to try to discover things that are not yet understood, and they would be much like scientists.

[@Bedburrito]

As long as the "magic" is bound by rules. Its not magic, its science. -dr stone proly

[@headrockbeats]

Lovecraftian Horror tackles this issue in the most effective way, I believe. Characters in Lovecraft's work are often scholars, who spend time and effort studying these things as though they were a science. However, while they can sometimes learn how to do an action to produce a result, they never understand why that happens. The forces at work are explicitly stated to be _unknowable,_ and any attempt to understand the magic leads, inevitably, to MADNESS. A great example of this outside of Lovecraft's own work is the Fallen London universe of videogames (Fallen London, Sunless Sea and Sunless Skies). Bizarre, utterly supernatural things are pretty much a daily fact of life within these universes; but there is almost _no_ explanation of how or why it all works the way it does. Once again, there are methods to replicate various outcomes, and plenty of science-minded people trying to solve the problems by studying them, but there are never any answers, only ever-increasing, life-threatening TERROR as one approaches anything resembling a "truth". In this sense, modern magic is essentially a mockery of science - it has the trappings of a "system", but any attempt to actually study it is futile. There is always a risk, and always a wonder, no matter how much you know.

[@travislyonsgary]

Eh to be fair in both Lovecraft and Fallen London things are not unknowable per se. It is more that to attain the perspective needed to understand, ones own being and perspective is alienated from what one once was. The Hours in Fallen London fully used to be humans, they arent now as the path to becoming what they are neccecitated their change. The cultist in Lovecrafts original work note quite often and quite liberally that the Old Ones will teach them new ways of being but by the very nature of their rituals the l protaganist already considers them mad. The key in both cases is specific rules may exist, but a knowledge gap is held both of potential antagonistic forces relation to those rules and the protaganist relation to those rules(mainly lovecraft for protaganist) A lot of the Fallen London setting is the journey to being capable of that understanding with actual showcase of what you lose along the way

[@RediTtora]

I often use Lovecraft and as an example of the more you know the less interesting it is. But the problem is if it's too vague then it's frustrating because it seems too convenient a lot of the times.

[@juliandacosta6841]

This actually applies to a lot of things in real life/science. The more mass something has, the more gravity it has. But scientists aren't really concerned with why it happens, they spend most of their time studying the intricacies of its effects. You can apply that to a lot of things, because if you keep on asking "why?" you eventually get to something that doesn't have an answer.

[@headrockbeats]

@@juliandacosta6841 That's not true. Scientists are extremely interested in why - and how - mass creates gravity. That is the study of bosons. And we are constantly finding answers to such questions that were once thought "unsolvable" - whether thanks to developments in mathematics/physics, or technological developments in instrumentation. The assertion that "you eventually get to something that doesn't have an answer" has been made many times in the past, and continues to be proven false _constantly._ By contrast, Lovecraftian Horror is specifically written as a criticism on the incessant search for answers, saying that not only will you not receive answers at the end, but will also literally suffer for the hubris of believing that there would be answers.

[@giggabiite4417]

ok, but hear me out. Irl science is just like this too. We're constantly learning new things, and the more we learn the more questions form. In addition, whenever we create or discover something new and powerful with our scientific revelations, it has the power to cause untold harm to our current way of life (which is always changing anyway but whose idealized version is oft considered the best way of life).

[@Supadurp]

I've tried to make a magic system as complex and interesting as Brandon Sanderson's but he truly has a gift for that stuff. Amazing writer, I love the mistborn series.

[@lostboy8084]

I tried to read his books but I always get a migraine after 1 to 1 and a half chapters. It is not like it's hard to read or anything like that and no other books have given me migraines when I read them. I tried different books he has written and it always happens. I wanted to read the Wheel of time he finished for Robert Jordan but I get a migraine every now and then also making it very difficult to enjoy. Great writer I am sure but gives me a headache

[@malcolmfletcher2659]

@@lostboy8084 Listen to the audiobooks then. It's 100%, 1000% worth it

[@galenschultz3239]

​@@lostboy8084Sanderson only co-wrote the last three. Some of that writing is obviously his (Mat povs) but most of it is difficult to tell. Some of it IS Jordan's and besides the final scene which was explicitly reported as his, I'd challenge you to tell me when it's Brandon writing and when it's Robert.

[@BookishEmperor]

Making full magic systems like he does is definitely very tough.

[@alexber8838]

Just do it, its very easy: Take a power concept, make a table-diagram with a docen variants of it, and establish half the rules as a guide. Write your story, bending the rules to your convenience. Dont forget to justify everything retroactively, as if it wasn't all invent bullshit... and done.

[@kaptinkanoodle5039]

This made me think about my experience with Sea of Thieves. As a new player, the world felt alive and magical, with adventure around every corner. The possibility of victory against impossible odds, or defeat when the encounter was in our favor was always possible. As I learned the mechanics, spawning and loot that each encounter had, the world felt less and less alive. It became more of a numbers game, and the reason I played switched from exploration and adventure to beating other pirates in PvP. I also noticed that when new encounters came in updates, I got that child-like wonder when I first encountered it, and did it over and over to milk that feeling until I learned the mechanics of the encounter and it became a numbers game.

[@BlockMasterT]

Same thing happened with Minecraft

[@hexipo2352]

Damn you've just made me realise why I get that moment of sudden loss whilst playing a game. At the point of understanding, thinking the way it was built, the magic fades.

[@kaptinkanoodle5039]

@@hexipo2352 and a lot of the time, we play to get better at the game, but the better we become the more the magic fades away. I guess that's the lifecycle of a game

[@Nikolas_Davis]

I think there's more to what Galadriel says to the hobbits than just that she understood the "magic". I don't recall if it's in the same excerpt, but I remember that the elves were said to be quite shocked that men (and hobbits) used the same word, 'magic', to refer to both the elvish craft _and_ the "machinations of the Enemy" (Sauron). One could say the elvish magic and Sauron's 'dark' magic are two vastly different magical systems: elvish 'magic' is art and craftsmanship freed of all material and technical limitations, achieving perfection through *natural* means, i.e. the nature of living and inanimate things. It is somewhat similar to the real world notion of 'natural magic', advocated primarily throughout Renaissance times. Sauron's magic, otoh, does *not* work _through_ nature but _against_ it, twisting and torturing it, seeking to dominate and coerce it. Interestingly, there's more overlap between the two than the elves would care to admit; indeed, the forging of the One Ring felt like an utter betrayal to them precisely because Sauron fused elvish with dark magic in forging it, therefore tricking them into participating in a despised craft. For all intents and purposes, it was a rape of their culture.

[@Ho1yhe11]

You forget it was all created in a song and the manipulations of the void were harmonized within.

[@vexaris1890]

It's also a difference in philosophy. Elves try to align themselves to the song of creation, whereas Morgoth and Sauron rebell and try to force their own will unto the world.

[@MrRenanHappy]

You're wrong in one point. The creation of all Rings of Power are twisted with the 'magic' from Sauron, its designs all come from him disguised. Although the Elves studied and crafted these to preserve their lands, that act itself was against nature, because the act of unnaturally embalming the natural world is inherently evil in this world. That's the sin of the Noldor Elves who remained in Middle Earth, to attempt to rule the Earth and yet try to recreate 'heaven' in it, or the closest thing to it they understood, that is Valinor.

[@citiaii]

i like to refer to horror whenever i write fantasy because i enjoy it when something supernatural is minimally explained. once the horror is understood, it can lose its fear factor, just like magic can lose its sense of wonder if it’s overexplained or has convoluted mechanics.

[@rodgerakiki2207]

Jujutsu Kaisen sweating bullets right now

[@fabiosilva9637]

Same as mystery, which is a cousin tone to sense of wonder.

[@canisarcani]

and yet, logically, it is inevitable that in any world in which magic as presented in most fantasy works of fiction exists: the inhabitants WILL attempt to understand it. BECAUSE of that fact that for magic to work it would have to be woven into the very fabric of their universe it would HAVE to logically follow a set of rules. the conceptual idea of the sense of magical wonderment from discovering something new that you dont understand is nice and all.. but trying to make an an etire world that runs off of that wouldnt make a lot of sense long term. 😅

[@migrak15]

Nah I would say is the opposite, you lose interest when it's poorly explained or you know no information about it.

[@Mialikesthings]

@@rodgerakiki2207JJK has a power system not a magic one.

[@aquamarinerose5405]

Admittedly I only just started the video, but I think there's a pretty simple reason that magic systems don't feel magical these days. A LOT of it focuses on the idea of magic as a power system for its characters to use to solve problems. The idea that a Wizard is an actually reliable part of the party rather than a strange outsider who disappears at the most inconvenient time when the soft, do-anything magic system could easily solve all of your problems. (As you can tell, that's a dig DIRECTLY at Gandalf.) As such, the idea of magic as something ephemeral and unreliable has somewhat fallen out of fashion in exchange for using harder, more specific, more reliable magic systems with more specific rules and spells as to facilitate this "Powerset" without breaking the story.

[@aquamarinerose5405]

Also, now that I'm further in. Another modern "trend" leansaway from that idea of wonder and impossibility because there's an idea that plot shifts that come out of the blue due to seemingly impossible magic is bad writing

[@BioshockDrill]

​@@aquamarinerose5405tell me you never read a LOTR book without telling me

[@aquamarinerose5405]

@@kori228 Yea, admittedly this is a big issue (and honestly an annoying one), but it's different from the question of whether magic ought to be "magical"

[@just4931]

I think this is the greatest explanation of the video, the video is defining magic as the unexplained, that it's only "magical" if the rules aren't clear , that let's you write in anything and can make for a boring system unless your wizard is a rare character or unreliable , Gandalf is a fantastic example since they have to basically write him out. I'd still call Avatar or FMAB "magical" even though the system are clear.

[@PwnEveryBody]

It's a mistake to label soft magic systems as "do-anything", because that's not what it's about. Hard magic systems can be equally "do-anything", it's nothing to do with the structure of it. Soft magic systems are just less structured. There can still be significant limits to what can be done, when, and how, even if the reader or even the writer might not know all the specifics about it. Figuring out even the basics of why something didn't work when clearly it should can even be whole plot points in themselves. Gandalf himself is actually a very good example of this. If soft magic systems were indeed "do-anything", why did he run from the Balrog, or even the goblins before that? Why hasn't he killed any dragons? Why doesn't he simply whisk the Ring away into Mount Doom? Why does he fear the Palantíri so? His magic is very clearly limited in numerous ways, and quite substantially at that. It's not something he can simply whip up whenever he wants or even needs. Had he been present earlier for the trolls Bilbo encountered, there'd still be precious little he could have done. He only appeared like a deus ex machina because the sun was rising and there was only a large bit of stone in the way that he could split. He did nothing directly against the trolls, it was the power of the sun itself that did them in.

[@katherinespezia4609]

I think the problem arises when you want your POV characters to do magic. You HAVE to explain it to some degree, because the characters need to understand enough of it to be able to use it. Galadriel's magic feels magical because we're not seeing it from her perspective. But if the story were written from her point of view, it would need to include a little bit of explanation of what she's doing, the same way as a story about hobbits need to explain the ways they use their swords to defeat a band of orcs. The plot doesn't make as much sense if you don't understand how they won the fight.

[@drdca8263]

Hm, I guess when Frodo does magic (not just wearing the ring to turn invisible. I mean what he does to Gollum), it is told kind of from Sam’s perspective?

[@herscher1297]

Its like becoming a magician in real life, the more you learn the less will be magical. But you will develop an admiration for the art.

[@tengun]

You don't really need to. There are many fan fictions of Harry Potter, and they don't need to explain magic. Everyone just knows Lumos would produce a light source at the tip of the wand and it's never explained how that works. And surely it does have a system, else how the did Snape invent a new magic spell. And even when you need to explain something, there are non-technical ways to explain it. For example, when Harry's wand caused Tom's wand to show the spells it had performed, it was simply explained that the wands are brothers. No real explanation was given, and that's still magical.

[@katherinespezia4609]

@@tengun You don't need to explain how it *works*, but even Harry Potter books explain how magic is *done*. They talk about how to say the right words and do the right wand motions and such. There is a consistent and obvious cause and effect.

[@alistairgrey5089]

I disagree. Even if a character is doing magic you don't have to explain the how or why, you can just explain what happens. Maybe it was the flourishing of their hands, maybe it was the mutterings of their voice, or maybe it was just willpower. The fact is, the audience doesn't always have to know why or how something works, just that it does. That's how a magic "system" can still feel magical rather than scientific. It's also the kind of system I use for storytelling quite often. I may know how the magic works, but if nobody in the story knows, why should the audience know? An example of this is modern technology. You know what it is and how to manipulate it but do you actually understand it? If you are an electrical engineer or a computer engineer, sure, but otherwise it might as well be magic. But we as the mages of this technology have lost our appreciation for how truly incredible this stuff is. You don't have to show that cynicism to your audience, you can keep the wonder in your world.

[@josephmichael162]

In a beautiful moment I had in my D&D campaign, I pulled a REALLY cool quote. "Casting a spell is easy. Creating magic is difficult because magic happens when the known meets the unknown."

[@Tyranid_Hive_Mind]

"Remember my sons, vocal components can be whatever you want."

[@Tyranid_Hive_Mind]

Your quote is actually pretty cool though

[@WHERE_IS_EURYDICE]

Ooh, that's a good one! I'll have to remember that for the future.

[@Taladar2003]

The thing I don't like about soft magic systems is that they present a huge temptation to the author to take the easy way out when they wrote themselves into a corner and just make up some sort of magic on the spot to solve a problem. I do like the creativity hard magic systems (and rules of the world they built in general) forces on the author.

[@rainy2063]

Yeah And this "soft magic" is being used only in few moments. But in other it seem not to work

[@rainy2063]

And those "bad magic" from HP This is bad and evil just because it break all story by realizing that main characters could make it everything much easier

[@alalalala57]

I mean, making up whole systems is a similar temptation. Down the line, you'd have systems after systems, expansion after expansion, and a few key exceptions to make it spicy. No good story starts with a full-blown system and never changes in those ways by the end. Soft or hard magic, it both could be deus ex machina easy enough.

[@RFDN0]

Both systems honestly have strengths and weaknesses. Both naritively and creatively.

[@acendiatmedia8747]

​@@alalalala57sure if the writer decides to retcon or maker things up on the fly. But every time creates a potential obstacle, while soft magic is completely prone to it.

[@ComfiestChair]

An interesting thing for me about Brandon Sanderson's work in the two currently existing Mistborn series (some spoilers ahead, be warned) is that some of the potential power that was available in the first trilogy is removed in the second. In the first series, there were those called Mistborn that could harness all the available attributes of the primary magic, and we follow one of them through all three books. In the next series, the Wax & Wayne tetralogy, there are no more Mistborn, and we follow a character who can only access one aspect of the magic and specializes in it, adapting to more situations with his relatively limited toolset. It was always fascinating to me while I was reading to see them reflect on that previous age, now centuries past, when there were effectively demi-gods running around leveling buildings and such with almost no effort. It retroactively gave me that sense of awe and wonder, yet at a system both myself and the characters already largely understood. It put the actions of the Mistborn characters in slightly more 'hobbit-like' perspective, using time and access to the magic instead of characters' limited understanding. Sanderson has a very good understanding, imo, of what makes the two extremes of 'magic as science' and 'magic as wonder' (hard vs soft magic, as he calls them) work, and he enjoys playing with how to achieve the effects of both, and slowly slide you along the spectrum from one to the other

[@poggestfrog]

Spoilers for the newest Mistborn book ahead, be warned!!! Lerasium is gone and pretty much faded in the later trilogy, since it was diluted after bloodlines. That's what created Mistborn. However, with Trellium and Harmonium you can see that it can be created again albeit via a big explosion, and Wax actually breathes in Lerasium from the air which is how he's so powerful. Which means we could get a resurgence of Mistborn in the third Era!

[@raizin4908]

​@@kitty.miracle Well, everything is boring to someone 🤷

[@escapetherace1943]

@@raizin4908 naw, Sanderson is overrated, vastly so in the same vein of GRRM tier overrated, nearly. Mistborn is actually quite shitty and the subvillain Zane was way more interesting than anything else and our best mistborn v. mistborn fight we got, which was also short as fuck. The twist about her earring was alright but the whole emperor thing was a massive drag. Waxillium was a much more fun character to read than Vin's drawn out series, and the short novel length actually helps the format. We got comedy, dynamic characters, and better fights in my opinion in Wax's series. It still had its flaws and allomancy seems weird in the early industrial age, but it's an enjoyable enough read. Can't say the OG mistborn series really stuck out, it's just generic despite it's own unique ideas, that's how it feels to me. Dull and gray, a lot like their world. Not looking forward to series 3, if he'll ever actually release it.

[@D4rK3sTsH4d0W]

The animations, the voice, the atmosphere you've built around your videos, then the intro animation with the books happened and I was blown away. That's magical. It's beautiful. I can't believe I haven't seen your channel before.

[@MrMeasaftw]

I didnt have time to finish this video, but i subscribed instantly and definitely gonna binge the channel later. I love creators who actually put effort into their content

[@declanashmore]

That robot rantsona perfectly fits the voice. Good stuff.

[@nameless_existence2001]

​@@declanashmore*

[@HappyElsen]

Exact same experience I just had. Just went from "Oh? What is this?" to "What a chill vibes voice" to "Okay, that's fucking sick" when the intro animation started, I'm so excited to binge the rest of this channel

[@guilhermeantonini1777]

That's why I love the Mage/Sorcerer divide. The former keeps magic from being unrealistically unexplored, while the latter keep it mysterious and awe-inspiring. You get both soft and hard magic in a same universe and show that they both have their ups and downs.

[@chronoatog5650]

I think DnD always has two parallels of magic Wizard/Cleric/Druid are more intelligence stat based (wisdom/intelligence) and based off devotion to beings or the arcane their parallels Sorcerer/Favoured Soul/Spirit Shamans is less about understanding magic but how you commune with the forces that be either yourself, the diety or the spirits of elements and nature. One is more the tool box being able to adapt and change their spells, where the other is less forcing it and is a natural thing it would be like us trying to grow another foot because we will it. They have less spells but can cast more since it's natural to them.

[@GeorgeDCowley]

My instinct was that it would be the reverse.

[@kamikaze00007]

Well, the word "magic" in itself is meant to signify something we can't explain so if in fiction it is written as a systematized and studied subject, it is no longer magic and is instead "science". In Japanese fiction they try to go about this subject by using different words like "Majutsu" and "Mahou", both of which pretty much refer to "Magic". Not to forget "Tejina" which is referring to the the stage magic type of magic. What they often do is instead have both Mahou and Majutsu exist in the same fictional universe, but one is a "science" which the current civilization uses within the setting, while the other refers to "unexplainable miracles" and other such feats.

[@ashutoshmohapatra7320]

Fellow Index fan, I see.

[@kamikaze00007]

@@ashutoshmohapatra7320 Not really taking it directly from Index, but it is an example.

[@Secret_Moon]

Supernatural power, psychic power, Ki, etc. They're all the same.

[@magnolia1253]

That's actually false. The word 'magic' comes from Babylonian 'mazja' and means "the way the world works"

[@lucariomew365]

While the modern interpretation of magic often equates it to an unexplained science, ancient cultures and myths depicted supernatural powers as governed by understood principles or possessed by knowledgeable individuals. In almost every culture across the world it was the exact opposite. In those times, magicians were revered for their wisdom. Dismissing these beliefs as mere ignorance disregards the profound understanding these cultures had of their own systems. Magic was never intended to represent a lack of understanding or an unsolvable mystery. And Clarke's third law is the epitome of an egotistical unimaginative worldview that stifles creativity from a place of hubris.

[@chickensky1121]

To be honest, I have zero qualms with making the magic systems of my universe and stories follow certain laws. That's almost part of the fun, to me; having certain societies see some force or object as supernatural when other societies understand it completely. If you took a gun or a smartphone and brought it 1000 years into the past, nobody would understand the science behind it, but that doesn't mean the science doesn't exist, and I'm fine with portraying magic the same way. Maybe I will just stop using the word 'magic' to describe the system at all, though of course the people in my fictional world are still going to call it magic because they don't understand it themselves. Other writers can evoke this 'magical' feeling with their work; that's just not what I'm trying to do. Edit: I was made aware that guns were actually invented closer to 1000 years ago than now, so just scratch that bit.

[@zenebean]

"It's not *magic* it's waterbending!" Worked for Avatar

[@Kyss111]

Yeah, I just called them power system

[@rommdan2716]

If you can understand it, then it's not magic

[@chickensky1121]

@@rommdan2716 I'm just calling it magic because most people hear the word 'magic' and understand that I'm talking about spellcasting and superpowers. It's for convenience, nothing more.

[@victorvirgili4447]

Pretty sure Allomants in Mistborn don’t even see themselves as magicians, not sure though since the only other series I’ve read in that universe is The Archive of Storms and their magic system isn’t really seen as magical

[@Mauricio0973]

This reminds me of this quote from Loki in a comic from Marvel: Magic is taking a thought and making it real. Taking a lie and making it the truth. Telling a story to the universe so utterly, cosmically perfect that for a single, shining moment... the world believes a man can fly.

[@chickensandwich8808]

I love magic systems only to creatively "break" them and create that sense of wonder even if for a moment within players at the gaming table.

[@ectior]

Pratchett’s magic has always managed to maintain it’s magical properties. A massive accomplishment for the number of books he wrote with it

[@stargate525]

I think that's because the rules themselves are so... playful. There's logic but it's at a slant to normal logic. L-space is one that comes to mind; books are knowledge, knowledge is power, power is energy, energy is mass, so -logically- a sufficiently large body of books creates a singularity.

[@cericat]

@@stargate525 yep magic in Discworld is barely restrained chaos, so while the rules exist and work the outcomes are like rolling a d20 with half the sides a 1.

[@Hup.]

Because Pratchett's magic incorporates language games and witticisms into the mechanics of his magic itself (when he reveals those mechanics). Thus even when you learn the mechanics, and close the gap in understanding there is a different type of satisfaction from understanding how the author's use of comedy and logic helped the story to arrived at the punchline.

[@martintoder2701]

that's because he never explains jack.

[@KOTEBANAROT]

@@martintoder2701 he literally does, all the time? his witch books are constatnly talking about the nature and laws of magic, and how witch magic is different from wizard magic, such as, if someone wants to light a hat on fire, a wizard would try to force the material to heat itself enough for it to burns into flames while the witch flips through realities and finds one where the hat just suddenly bursts into flames and then convinces the reality around the hat that the hat should be on fire right now. then theres the morphogenetic field, the Borrowing, the L-space, the sourcery, jesus theres a lot of magic talk in his books.

[@shawnlopez2317]

Anther great video! Would you say what makes Lovecraft so frightening is that his cosmic horror is sort of like a hard magic system in reverse, being a universe of science but one were the system in the edges is breaking down into the unknown? I would think that would be terrifying and maddening to those in that system.

[@DLockholm]

Not really, even Lovecraft says it several times, all the cosmical beings in this universe are incomprehensibly so advanced (both technological and biologically speaking) that their mere existence is magical, just look at the cultist and their rituals to invoke the powers of the ancient gods of the void, but it's still the same, hyper advanced beings that to us looks like good old magic. Sounds very similar to the video's subject.

[@soren3569]

Part of the reason for the rise of systemic magic over 'wonder' magic is that, after Tolkien, wonder magic tends to feel very much like a narrative cheat--to paraphrase Lucy Lawless, "Anytime you need something to happen, a wizard does it." The one place where such an approach to magic is most satisfying is in modern, updated fairytales, since most magic in those has some sort of internal logic, but no explanation beyond "This is how it is". So the movie Labyrinth, or the comic book series Fables, or the novels of Neil Gaiman, all draw upon that sort of approach to magic, and you just accept it. But it can cause issues. "Why didn't Gandalf just..." becomes a common refrain, since he clearly has the power to do a lot of things. Sure, he doesn't dare bear the Ring himself, but it seems like he should be able to whip up some sort of magical transportation to get everyone there faster. And if you explain WHY he can't do this or that, then you're on the first step of creating a systemic magic approach, instead, since delineating limits is part of any system design.

[@patrickbuckley7259]

This can be fixed with a modicum of competence. Doing things that you going to have to do even in a hard magic system. If you have a main character who does magic, establish what spells he can perform early in the story, set a basic rule on how much he can do before he's reached his limit. His powers have limits. If you have another mage show up, you can use basic writing tricks to establish what they know. Let's say this new mage went to the same school, so they know a lot of the same stuff as your existing mage. If you establish they are more or less skilled you can assume they may have a different knowledge pool, and thus know more or less spells, or maybe just a couple of different ones. So long as you don't significantly alter the plot with a spell that comes out of knowhere or that has a grossly different power level to waht has been established so far, like say stopping an avalanche whene all TK seen in the story so far has been nothing more than throwing smaller objects. Your pretty good. Even then it can work if you have established that a powerfull wizard lives up in the mountains with magic so grand it put's others to shame. It's when you have an established character pull a new spell out of nowhere, or a novice perform a feat that is on a vastly different scale from anything we have seen before without any good reason, that you have an issue. All of which can happen with a "hard magic" system too. Hell this can happen without even having magic in a setting. Suddenly a 5' twig of a man can just lift a massive huliking brute above his head, showing strength he has not even been hinted at possessing before, is going to ring just as hollow as the magical equivalent, if not more so. A good example of how to do this right is Star Wars, a good example of how to do this badly is Disney Star Wars. It's also kind of silly to assume defining any limits is going to cause the more hard "sciency" feel to show up. Stuff like the rule of three are certainly rules, but rules that feel mystical in nature.

[@dvillines26]

my way of thinking is that you don't explain whys and hows, but you do explain what it can't do. Like a lot of stories with soft magic say 'no resurrection'. or 'we can heal wounds but we can't cure cancer'. Or 'they can only cast this on a full moon while in good health'. Or the circumstances happened to align in an extremely rare way to allow a usually impossible thing to occur. but you may never get any sense WHY things can't be done. It can make stories involving magic compelling, where it seems at first like magic can do anything, and then the characters are smacked right in the face with its limitations. Sure, I can cast a fireball, I can fix a broken chair, I can talk to dragons. But I can't save my dying wife from liver cancer, so WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT? And not knowing why makes it worse. It's cosmic cruelty, it seems like. Fairy tales get a lot of mileage out of brutal arbitrary rules, and I think that's something to keep in mind writing more mystical fantasy.

[@soren3569]

@@patrickbuckley7259 First, I've got to disagree with you on Star Wars. The first movie does nothing to establish the power of the Force as anything other than a form of divination and low-grade mind-control. Second movie adds telekinesis, even though Obi-Wan never used it once in the first movie (Darth Vader does, of course, but really only for Force Choking, which could be argued to be an example of controlling someone's mind to the point where they cannot breath). Third film then pulls Force Lightning out of the Emperor's butt with no warning. In that context, I see no issues with astral projection or yogic suspended animation, which are the two primary examples given of how the sequels 'screwed up' the Force. But that example does get to my point--a LOT of times, 'mystical' magic is just interpreted as a Deus Ex Machina, which is why most modern fantasy authors prefer systemic magic unless they are very specifically going for the fairy tale vibe. I suspect a lot of editors and publishers nudge writers in that direction for that very reason.

[@patrickbuckley7259]

@@soren3569 Except every time we saw a new power it was either A. Introduced early in the film, (and he was struggled to use it to lift his lighsaber) as was the case with Luke's TK in Empire (This was also used as a stroy telling technique to show Luke had been training in the force between the two movies), or it was heavily implied that the users where possessed of great power. Yoda showing big TK, and Palpitates Lightning. Both where figures implied to possess great power, and Palpatine was clearly possessed of some darker power, and thus might possess abilities a Jedi would not. The Astral Projection was not the issues, it was being able to teleport crap with it, or Luke dying because he used it. The Leia scene was just executed really poorly, and it was not really set up Leia had learned much about the Force. Personally I think both powers fit into the mold quite well. My issue was the mass TK Rey pulled off despite being a novice. Or Yoda using Force Lightning to destroy the tree, or Palps blowing up a fleet with force lightning... The power level went from where even the most skilled Force User's where pretty limited, to novices pulling off DBZ level bullshit in like 2 movies with very little set up. I do think a lot of people where just being babies about the force healing, though it's limit's/cost could have been better defined and she probably should have learned it from Luke on the island...

[@GeorgeDCowley]

I don't tend to ask those things.

[@MaxFerney]

From the perspective of a software engineer, I feel what I do is magic sometimes in of itself. there are more complex things that I still percieve as wizardry (like PLC). The approach you describe here in the video is one that I've felt myself for years, and I appreciate that you have created this video. Thank you

[@BenjaminAlternate]

Yep! That's abstraction!

[@庫倫亞利克]

I think magic can both be hard and mysterious. It's hard because the author has it all thought out, and all of its manifestations will abide by the same rules--but only in retrospect, after the readers have been told (or better, after they've figured out) the rules. Meanwhile, the characters who don't have the same amount of information as the author and the readers are allowed to form their own (wrong or incomplete) theories about how magic works. And because readers are meant to connect to the characters emotionally, they will naturally share the characters' bafflement and wonder. I see no contradictions there. Nature is hard. Murder mysteries are hard (you know, unless specifically noted, that the murderer uses mundane means to achieve his killings. You just don't know how). Hell, stories are hard in that you aren't given the full picture at the beginning, but instead clues, foreshadowings, and exposition, yet the "full picture" is always there from the beginning. Doesn't make them less interesting in the slightest.

[@773Spair]

Yes, I agree. Complex and largely unexplained HM can be as mysterious and wonderous as SM is.

[@IrvineTheHunter]

Well not "magic" the game Braid is a pretty good example of this, it's a puzzler built out of the consequences that the rule set creates.... So rather than "solving" the puzzles it more often feels like I was understanding the world, and fixing my assumption.

[@mawinstallation6626]

I liked The Owl House for having one of its most important plot points be about how a Magic System is extremely reductive, flawed and oppresive (it was imposed by a human over the magic users, the witches, to make matters worse) so it's actively fought against, until it is eradicated and all witches are free to practice their magic without labels. So they live without a system because it repressed their nature.

[@skulldrac0]

One of the things I find that makes a magic system feel "magical" is when it's a system that acknowledges that it has rules, but those rules aren't set in stone but rather what's safest to the caster. Sure you can write out the runes for a fireball to cast it, but if you play with the shapes even alittle, suddenly things could get dangerously out of hand. It let's those constrained by the rules bend them in a moment of great need without it being an otherwise "impossible act only the chosen one could do".

[@throughcolouredglasses9300]

That's precisely what i like about the Dresden Files book series! While it's far from perfect and i can't ever recommend it to someone who isn't really into action heavy fantasy written by Men (TM), it's one of my favourite book series and 100% hits the spot when it comes to this balance of magic rules vs "breaking" the rules, introducing changes in the system, different powers to the ones of the protagonists which have different limitations etc. The protagonist isn't simply able to overpower all danger, he isn't even particularly skilled in most areas of magic. But he knows to plan and play to his strengths, make meaningful connections to characters with other abilities, and brings permanent consequences to his own life by breaking the rules of "safety" or "practicioner's common sense". Sometimes the sacrifices that will have to be made are known exactly, sometimes they are just a vague blob of "nobody would dare to risk with that". And it's usually pulled off pretty well! Most of the time each book leaves me with the feeling of "oh no we got through that but at what cost".

[@escapetherace1943]

that's kind of overdone too. Reminds me of Eragon, lmao, and as bad as the books are in retrospect the magic system was pretty cool and the consequences were basically immediate death for any fuck ups.

[@alexandercroft798]

I love the magic in Eragon because, while large parts of it are given explanations and clear mechanics, the system is never fully explained or limited. The largest part of the magic comes from a language, you cannot lie in this language, promises made are binding, and someone who knows what they are doing and has the correct talent can use it to command the world; however, we are never given a comprehensive dictionary of the language, simply told some of the ways to use it

[@theguileraven7014]

Eh, I never liked Eragon’s magic system. It always felt like something that tries to be versatile yet structured, and ends up limited in all the wrong ways. All the fights end up the same, first they fight with TP, then when one gets the upperhand they end it with an instant death word. Sure, there’s an entire language of things you can do, but only a few things that are actually practical. And equating physical energy with magical energy, to the point where you can’t magically perform an action unless you can do it conventionally as well, kind of takes the magic out of things. And I think the writer realized this as well, which is why he started writing so many loopholes.

[@Rubywing4]

Some years ago, I watched America's Got Talent with my parents, and the winner was a guy named Shin Lim, who specializes in card magic. As in... REALLY advanced card magic. In all of his performances in the competition, he kept wowing the audience, judges and us viewers watching TV. And I could not figure out or imagine at all how he did those tricks. Usually in card magic, the magician wears long sleeves, I think, which helps making cards disappear and appear and stuff. But Shin Lim wore short sleeves, meaning he could not use that kind of trick. Plus his speed is simply INCREDIBLE, he moves the cards so fast you can't see where they go, not in his palm or the back of his hand turning away. I think maybe also the tables he used did not have any tablecloths, if I remember correctly, so he couldn't hide them in any way with the table. But the SICKEST trick was the last performance he gave in the competition, where he was holding a card, and then IT CHANGED LIVE RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE! As if it was a screen, but it was just a card! I don't care much for musical performances like many competitors do, you see it all the time. But magic like this? Even his first performance was enough that I hoped he would win, and he did, which was awesome! I don't know how Shin Lim did his tricks, and I don't want to know how, because that is definitely the closest thing to real magic that I, and probably most other people, will have ever seen. In fact, I am ready to believe that what I saw was true magic, and that Shin Lim is a true magician. It was just so good. Maybe I should rewatch his performances, just to be sure that I remember it correctly, because I think even the judges said they couldn't figure out how he did it and that was enough to get a yes from them.

[@didifer98]

I love the hard-magic type of worlds because they deal with a power that can be wielded individually by people, although it does have a lot of rules and kind of mimics how science works sometimes, it still feels like a breeze of fresh air because science in most cases cannot be done entirely by ourselves and without proper equipment, but the magic in these worlds can be explored by a single person and reach stages unimaginable to most people at the end of the road. It deals with the feeling of being shackled by society in the real world, which doesn’t let you do anything without relying on someone else, and instead lets you imagine individuals who can wield anything in the palm of their hands.

[@ZarHakkar]

9:50 It's "sufficiently *analyzed* magic is indistinguishable from science", not "advanced". Small misspeak, but big difference in meaning.

[@cocolasticot9027]

I really like how Terry Pratchett builds it. No one really knows how it works, even the most eminent wizards. There's always some kind of apprehension when magic is used, which insures that sense of wonder, both for the characters and the reader. The fact that it most often ends up in a magistral failure is the cherry on top 😂

[@TheBearOfSpades]

I haven't felt genuine draw to magic since I recently rewatched Howl Moving Castle. The last time I watched it was close to a decade ago when I was a child. It truly felt magical and spontaneous, it felt like there was rules in the world, but still that it was unknown to me as the viewer, and it kept that spark throughout.

[@Violaphobia]

Miyazaki nails that sense of wonder in most of his works imo

[@lukewood7341]

I felt the same way watching Arietty a few years ago

[@christinabrock2893]

Thank you! So many people who write and teach about worldbuilding talk like hard magic is somehow obviously better because it "makes more sense," but I've always preferred soft magic because, to me, NOT "making sense" in that way actually makes my experience of the fantasy world much more magical. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so!

[@thespaceboy2986]

I admire this investigative view upon the relatively strong concept that makes a seemingly simple thing such as magic seem entirely and undefiningly enept as it is complex.

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

But that coming from are modern literature interpretation. But are ancestors seen magic as Framsynn and ofrskr magic to predict and see into the future and insights of distant Lands or other worlds. Thul you would learn arcane magic through words to enable to cast spells Shaman you would learn seidr foresee and spiritual magic. Gandr Hagvanda magic to control and manipulate the mind of people and creatures alike. Hamfarir you would learn shapeshifting magic able to change and alter your appearance or form as you please. landvættir spiritual magic to connect and manipulate the elements and land around Vitkar you would learn runecraft able to embu it to a person or objects to enchant power of that runes symbol. Rammaukinn magic to grant you enhance physical abilities. Ofrskr Gandr are user of magic through objects like totem, scroll and talisman. Onmyouji you would learn to summoning and control aberrations. Daoshi you would learn to use ofuda or paper tailman to cast spells.

[@vasylpark2149]

Before I start watching, I want to say something. I think I've said this before but the reason some magical systems don't feel magical is because 1) there isn't an air of impossibility to them, a feeling that it is something that anyone can achieve or do. 2) there isn't a air of mystery to it, that it isn't esoteric and difficult to understand that only the brightest minds who have studied and mastered this power can do. And 3) that it isn't grounded in some sort of reality or rule set, that the results of invoking magic is without limitations that the caster knows and understands and can do anything he or she desires. I think that is why when you build a magic system you have to set the rules, limits, and boundaries of the system and then the author must choose what to tell the audience. Much in the way a practical magician knows the trick and purposely does not reveal the secret. I think the beat way to present magic is a hard magic system that appears to be soft. Edit: 5 minutes in and I am dang near close.

[@Reddotzebra]

As Sanderson shows, you can also take a hard magic system and then keep adding new rules to it while pretending they were there all along. I guess that makes it a "Firm" magic system?

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

Are really world myths and the culture of magic is like a magic system. The ones he Invision are modern literature magic with all powerful and undefined and irremacciable. Framsynn and ofrskr magic to predict and see into the future and insights of distant Lands or other worlds. Thul you would learn arcane magic through words to enable to cast spells Shaman you would learn seidr foresee and spiritual magic. Gandr Hagvanda magic to control and manipulate the mind of people and creatures alike. Hamfarir you would learn shapeshifting magic able to change and alter your appearance or form as you please. landvættir spiritual magic to connect and manipulate the elements and land around Vitkar you would learn runecraft able to embu it to a person or objects to enchant power of that runes symbol. Rammaukinn magic to grant you enhance physical abilities. Ofrskr Gandr are user of magic through objects like totem, scroll and talisman. Onmyouji you would learn to summoning and control aberrations. Daoshi you would learn to use ofuda or paper tailman to cast spells.

[@ultimaxkom8728]

Good and helpful points.

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

@@ultimaxkom8728 I just wonder why people get upset when magic able to be define, an energy source that's mama, chi, aura, Chara or others.

[@ultimaxkom8728]

@@majesticgothitelle1802 Who's upset with defined magical energy sources? I never heard of them.

[@RaisinDtere112]

One example I would think fits this video is the Fate series from TypeMoon. You may think magecraft and magic is the same but in that world, it is two different applications. Magecraft is what human mages are capable of, stemming from mysteries and myths of the ancient. Magic is miracles, ones that cannot be explained, the system of its magic is there is no system for that branch because it is the root of the original. I love how they also use concepts to perform magecraft and not the basic elements.

[@manumudgal4988]

Magic is real s**t while magecraft is trash copy.

[@lolproo]

Well, the problem is, as far as I know, magic only cannot be understand for normal ppl. I know that the root is a thing that not even superior beings to human in fate can't understand, and in fact every single word to describe that true nature of the root will be always wrong and describing other thing. Again, idk if i'm wrong but just saying

[@misterright4528]

Never really cared for Sanderson's hard magic systems and philosophy. While I'd agree that the magic of the story need some basic rules, I prefer most of how it works to remain behind the curtain.

[@Antasma1]

An interesting thing to look at in this topic is the concept of potions. On one hand, potion brewing can just look like normal medicine making but when you add arbitrary things like live frogs and hair of an old woman, it feels like magic without any scientific explanation. Often potion brewing could just be the process of harnessing the magical properties within, but like I said, the reasons could just be arbitrary

[@IzzyMartinez01]

Interesting. With my magic system I think I get lost in trying to explain it I forgot that magic could simply be unexplainable. Like I could know how it works while the people don’t.

[@theerrorboy12305t]

Nah its just a atom nano magic like system from type 3 civil.

[@carso1500]

Honestly i think thisbis the best approach, there can be and infact i think there must be rules, even LotR has clear limits on their magic, but if you really want to mantain a sence of mystery and wonder keeping those details to yourself is the best way It could be fun to hide certain details that hint at the inner workings of the magic system so that those trully dedicated can piece it up but leaving enough holes so that people can wonder

[@i.cs.z]

If you have to keep details for yourself something allready gone wrong. Just don't explain them even for yourself, it's not needed.

[@comet.x]

remember in worldbuilding, you don't need to keep the real laws of physics in-tact. or have them exist at all you could delete atoms and elements and replace it entirely with alchemy you could seperate space and time, and introduce the 'ether' element the rules you make up just have to have some sort of consistency, but they don't need to fit within real life physics. Actually, why even have real life physics? We don't need them. Make your own physics! go nuts!

[@depressedrocksenjoyer9472]

Another two good examples of well done magic systems are from Witch Hat Atelier which is essentially a more better version of Harry Potter magic with Enid Blyton-esque fantasy elements and A Certain Magical Index whose magic is based on real world religion, mythology and occult practices

[@cyrusmann5443]

a certain magical index actually has two magic systems, with the second one being psychics which have this field where reality can be what they wish, but only in one way, giving specific powers like electricity, vector manipulation, etc.

[@GusbeeCh]

It is great that someone mentioned Witch Hat Atelier, which for me is a series that encapsulates all that Tale Foundry was talking about in this video. Honestly, I was going to write a huge comment on the intricacies of the magic in the story, but I don't even know if it is going to be read. So I'm going straight to the point: I agree with TF on the aspect that magic can be a matter of perception/perspective and a, for the lack of better words, "otherworldly unpredictability". But in the Witch Hat Atelier series we see that there is something even beyond that. Even with a defined set of rules, even after knowing the trick, magic can still be... magical in this world. There is something about MAKING magic and seeing it happening that creates this sort of awe, this feeling of something truly fantastical. And personally I felt this, many times so far in my life. Because you see, magic in Witch Hat Atelier is all about drawing it, so it is also a story about the act of drawing. And to me, as someone who is studying illustration, whenever I draw something and see it becomes just like it was intended, it is a truly magical feeling. Realizing I was capable of doing such a thing, creating an illustration with just my work and a pen it is amazing. So to me, drawing is something really magical, not like in Witch Hat Atelier where runes create water out of thin air, but at the same it is just like that. In the end I wrote a lot, but at least I didn't explained the whole series as I was going to do first lol

[@depressedrocksenjoyer9472]

@@cyrusmann5443 that's the esper system buuutt you could say espers are close to being magic but that goes into massive spoiler plot twist territory if you haven't read the novels

[@Dave102693]

@@cyrusmann5443 and I love it the most

[@yondaime500]

I'm going to bring up Equestria Girls: Friendship Games again, because trying to understand and analyze magic like a science is exactly what gets Twilight in trouble in that movie. In fact, almost the entire series is about humans experiencing magic from a foreign world, that they're not psychologically prepared to deal with. They have no trouble understanding what it does, for the most part (sometimes it even comes with instructions), but the sudden expansion in perspective of what is possible, combined with the vulnerable state these characters find themselves in to begin with, causes them to make some pretty regrettable decisions. It's sort of like the Ring of Gyges.

[@Blobby90]

Eragon's magic system is to me, the gold standard. It has heavy costs that discourages beginner mages from attempting dangerous experiments because if you cast a spell then you can't stop it midway. You need both an understanding of the Elvish language, the language that magic is spoken in, and an incredible understanding of how the world works aka, Science. Eragon himself almost dies trying to turn sand into drinkable water.

[@SkyMurphy77]

As an eragon fan, I totally agree.

[@loofy530]

There's also I think, this space in between where characters know how a magic system works but don't understand why it works. A force which can be manipulated in very precise ways through defined actions, but a force that in itself is unknown.

[@rougheredge6705]

"Magic as a black box" I think is the best middle ground. It's the one I use most often. Another good approach I think, and this is going to sound weird, is Stands from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Now initially as its presented, there are set, hard rules that are never broken..... except we repeatedly see throughout the series that this isn't actually the case and the characters are just speaking based off their own experience and what they've been taught..... and they always eventually run into an enemy with a Stand that breaks one of those rules or bends it. "This or that always works like this (except for when they don't.)" In short, the approach of "Science has rules, magic has conventions. If magic MUST be compared to science, then we must never forget that almost every single scientific breakthrough always begins with someone saying "Uhh.... that shouldn't be possible...... UNLESS-" Hell, we still don't know quite what to make of black holes for instance. Mathematics, one of the most powerful tools humanity has, completely break down once you get inside one.

[@sleepydruid100]

To be fair. Some stuff my math teacher did was essentially magic to me.

[@angeldude101]

Much of the math I've learned has appeared more magical _after_ I understood how it worked. This usually comes when you stop seeing the math as just numbers and instead you're now adding things that don't seem like they should be capable of being added, like unperformed rotations. What do you get when you add a 180° rotation to a 0° rotation? A 90° rotation! Or literally adding the color blue to the color green to obtain cyan.

[@sleepydruid100]

@@angeldude101 me: *bows before the mighty wizard*

[@drdca8263]

@@angeldude101 huh? When you say adding the rotations, do you mean composing them, as in taking one after the other, or do you mean like, taking a formal linear combination? In either case, I don’t see how you are getting a quarter turn by adding a half turn and a 0-turns ? If composing, then a 0 radian turn composed with a pi radian turn is a pi radian turn, but, in the other case, you would get, well, just the linear combination, but if you wanted to make that into one transformation I guess it would be scaling things down to 0 size? I’m unsure what you mean?

[@angeldude101]

@@drdca8263 Linear combination. Composing would be multiplying. As for 180° + 0° giving null, that's what would happen if you naively treated them as arrows on a graph. In truth, there's an angle doubling, so 180° is an orthogonal vector to 0°. As for why there's an angle doubling, there are many reasons that I've found, the simplest of which is that a 180° rotation around one axis is not the same as a 180° rotation around another, so they can't both collapse to a scalar.

[@Commander_Skullblade]

Magic is science we don't understand yet. I like the idea that as you start learning magic, you feel absolutely lost and don't know where to start. You grasp at basic concepts, but are still bewildered by the big picture. But eventually, it all slides into place and makes sense. If it's chaotic and uncontrollable, can one really master it? And is something uncontrollable really worth using?

[@allentayoto7387]

The Irregular in magic highschool immediately popped up into my mind. It's a tricky anime/light novel series that somewhat explores what it'd be like if Science becomes an integral part of using magic. Magic certainly exists, there are even some characters who use an "older method" of casting magic such as using charms and things. But, it does stop feeling like magic once they start explaining how the magic works in theory. They use terminologies that makes the magic confined in the laws of physics, with the only magical thing being that "only magicians can draw from what allows these phenomena to occur". It's certainly an amazing series with cool magics but really, it feels more like a science-fiction most of the time than this fantasy magic story.

[@BrBobMackeSJ]

To quote Girl Genius, "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!"

[@Roxor128]

One of my favourite things in fiction is what TV Tropes calls "Doing In The Wizard", where the characters figure out how the magic works. There is something incredibly satisfying and gripping about that journey of discovery that sucks me in.

[@_Stray]

I think a lot of authors are aware of this, Hiromu Arakawa refers to alchemy (the magic system in fma) as a science through the characters that use it

[@JonaxII]

I love the Name of the Wind for having two magic systems, a hard one for my inner nerd who wants systems and rules and mechanics, and a soft one for my inner child who just wants to see fantastical magic.

[@Auri-u6q]

I love the book for so many different things, but that is certainly one of them.

[@krabkake3544]

This actually made me rethink how magic works in my story, the reason I like fantasy so much is because of how removed it is from reality. By deciding on hard rules for my magic system I removed what made things fantasy and made it just reality with a few differences. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s not what I want and I didn’t realize it

[@rainedans8684]

I don't know if this'll help, but personally I like to emphasize that the magic system that I'd made is just an concept. Just humans trying to comprehend and classify Mother Nature's blessing. That is also why I like to insert a miscellaneous category in it too, like Ancient Magic (Used but not understood completely) or Dragon/Etc Magic (Magic used by sentient beings in an incomprehensible language). Heck I'll even put in Black Magic as a label the Government use for forbidden magic (whether for good or evil, we'll see) just for creativity

[@brs121094]

I had a similar experience with my own story. My solution was to expand on the possibilities of what *could* be done, while hiding *how* they were done unless the reader needed to know (or if they went looking for answers themselves), which gave me more creative ideas to work with while letting certain aspects of it stay magical. Sure I wrote down the physics of how "magic" cools or heats the molecules in the air to create ice or fire, but also planets are alive and emotions have their own magical properties somewhat. I guess one way to look at it is that there can be tiers of magic in your story. There's basic magic that wizards spent their whole lives studying and solving to a point where it's more of a science, there's mysterious fairy-tale magic that exists in the dreams of children (the power of friendship is a common example), and there's divine or cosmic magic that holds the universe together and can do just about anything to break reality to create an "impossible" obstacle.

[@toggerz7487]

You could have two magic systems. One for the hard rules stuff, and one for the 'impossible' stuff.

[@iota-09]

Pretty much what everybody else said, there's also stuff we cannot figure out irl after all but that maybe we will one day: "what was the universe like before the big bang? How did it actually happen? What happens to consciousness after death?" Things that, perhaps, as beings living in a 4d world or something like that we might actually grasp, but as things stand now? They might as well be magic, same goes for dreams for example, which we only barely are able to explain scientifically. Find stuff like that for your magic systems, things that *might* make sense, but that ultimately have no way to be explained due to their very nature as magical and beyond comprehension. You becoming a squid at the end of a certain game is one such example: it makes no sense, everything else to an extent does... But that's exactly the point, and eventually you just accept it for what it is: incomprehensible. (It's obviously much deeper than that in that case but try as you might, you will mot find an explanation to HOW it happened, only on why or on what it means)

[@Yggdraseed]

One of my favorite depictions of magic comes from a series called The Ancient Magus's Bride. Part of why it feels so fresh and interesting is that, for the most part, it draws heavily from old, old European folk magic. Stuff like how a ring-shaped stone from a riverbed can protect you from the allure of faeries, or how faeries will often exchange gifts with humans in the form of performing magic for them in exchange for some food, a flower, and things like that. There are rules, but a lot of those rules have more to do with how humans interact with the Fae. Lots of depictions of magic, I've found, really pull more from alchemy or ceremonial magic of the kind Aleister Crowley and his contemporaries developed. Given how alchemy was a precursor to science, and given how ceremonial magic (Thelema, et cetera) arose in the same era as modern science's rise to prominence, it's natural that a system which pulls from these will be colored by the same assumptions that underpin Western science: that all observable phenomena are governed by absolute laws that are the same everywhere and through time, and that humans have the power to directly observe, quantify, and utilize those laws and their outcomes. Not to say that such a system can't "feel" magical. While the magic system itself isn't especially magical or based on this science-magic, Jujutsu Kaisen does have a very rule-based magic system in jujutsu sorcery, but nevertheless introduces characters who give this feeling of awe and wonder at what they're capable of through sorcery. There are a handful of characters who have this insight into and mastery of sorcery that barely even resembles what sorcery looks like through most of the series; they're less like humans with a special power and more like gods made manifest that are just experiencing the joy of using their power. I think you could definitely do something with that, where even if the system itself may not feel magical, the masters of using that system can invoke that feeling of wonder by using it in wondrous ways.

[@whatisthisayoutubechannel]

Old European folk magic still had plenty of rules: like produces like, action through contagion, et cetera. Sure, a lot of it was practiced by laypeople who did something because their ma taught them to and probably never thought too hard about why, but when it came to the more dedicated practitioners, your wise men and women, they absolutely rationalized and came up with all sorts of rules to explain why they did what they were doing. And this is true of every magic system in every society everywhere. Belief in consistent laws of nature isn’t some kind of modern invention, it’s human instinct - you don’t need to understand how planetary orbits work to wake up and expect the sun to rise from the east, you don’t just think “hey, maybe it’ll come up in the west today, who knows.” Magic is a tool; people use magic because they want something, a good harvest, good health, return of a loved one, whatever; and tools can’t work on the principle of “shit happens”. All magic systems are hard magic systems under the hood, especially if they’re supposed to actually work, because you have to have _some_ kind of ontology. IMO people who like soft magic systems because it “feels more magical” are mixing up two perspectives: that of the layperson and that of the practitioner. They want to be amazed and bedazzled by mystery, which really has nothing to do with magic per se and more to do with “cool thing I don’t understand” (the same effect can be achieved by watching videos of cool physics phenomena), which can only come from the perspective of the layperson; but they also want to see the perspective of the characters who actually use magic, which is paradoxical, because in order to use magic they have to understand magic and thus break the illusion. So to fix that they turn to “soft” magic systems where there are no apparent rules, things just happen according to the needs of the plot, and even the practitioners can’t predict what’s going to happen next - which is unlike any actual magical belief system that has existed in human history.

[@Yggdraseed]

@@whatisthisayoutubechannel I guess I shouldn't emphasize things as being totally unpredictable. More like... to go back to my example of The Ancient Magus's Bride: magic isn't totally unpredictable in that series, but it's not fully under the control of its users, either. Whether they're channeling these natural forces through magic or seeking the aid of some faery or spirit, there's an element of uncertainty. Mages understand part of, but not the entirety of the rules; they work with the Fae and make agreements with them, but the Fae in that series are fickle and very emotional, which can sometimes result in unintended consequences. The Fae will often deliberately interpret requests in highly literal ways, or in ways a human wouldn't due to a difference in values. And to use your example: people throughout time have relied on the knowledge the sun will rise, but they couldn't tell you every single gravitational detail behind why it rises, or the chemistry and physics involved in why it produces light and warmth. Some rules are reliable, and some aren't; some are known, and some aren't. I think that's where the excitement comes from, when the known comes up against the unknown, and an unexpected result can come from a brush with the unknown.

[@Leonlion0305]

Really love this video, really helped me rethink a lot about anime. A Certain Magical Index and The Ancient Magus' Bride specifically. Index has both traditional Magicians and Esper. Esper originate their power from scientific experiments/development where everyone has a unique power and level. On the other hand, although magic is explained as a separate rule it is viewed by the magicians as "a method to achieve the talented can naturally do" (not the exact quote, but IIRC that was the idea). Unlike the common magic system, Magical Index uses references from religions, folklore, or epics to structure out a method to produce a supernatural occurrence (e.g. conjure fire) that can be used by anyone. It is not specifically made for the naturally talented (like Esper) so Espers who use them might die and even magicians overuse them can fry their brain. It is simultaneous less structured (not simple like fire, water, wind, and earth) but also more structured (every magic has a source reference). This magic system is still very magical, at least much more magical than regular common elemental magic systems. As for Ancient Magus' Bride, they differentiate between a Mahou (Magic) and Majutsu (Alchemy*). Mahou is borrowing the power of faes, spirits, ghosts, or demons to affect the law of nature. Majutsu is a science that study on turning one's internal energy to mana and produce similar results that magic would. I am not sure why the English translation is Alchemy but I guess there isn't an equivalent word for it in English. Mahou is the traditional way, having to communicate and, at some point, negotiate with supernatural beings in order to do what a mage wants. It is more powerful than Majutsu but also very talent dependent. On the other hand, Majutsu does not need to interact with supernatural beings, less powerful, but not as talent dependent. Mahou is very magical in the sense that it lacks a lot of the rules (mainly just negotiation and will) in this series. It really captures the magic of "Magic" (ha).

[@GUNDAMURX73]

I think this is an excellent description of why I like "soft magic" systems more than "hard magic". To truly feel magical, you need to know *less* about how it works rather than more. Because the more you know about how it works, the more you understand what it can and cannot do. But in fiction, I feel a true feeling of magic is the idea that "anything is possible". Anything and everything, unbound by explicit logic and rules. Often I find that when you focus too much on how magic works, you lose the essence of it.

[@hyper_lynx]

I feel that soft magic works really well for gods and creatures that are helping or hindering the protagonist, but is usually not satisfying when the protagonist has it. If the protagonist just has an infinite get out of bad situation ability with no known limits, there is no way to challenge them meaningfully -- or at least, there will be a doubt that they can be overcome, which kills tension.

[@Carewolf]

But it makes for terrible writting. Anything can be solved with a deus ex machina with soft magic. The hard magic is meant to enforce rules to establish stakes, problems that needs to be solved, instead of just being a fanstastical story that doesnt' make sense, and doesn't have any stakes. soft magic onlt really works if rare, once you have a high magic world it needs to be hard, or the story only for children.

[@pn2294]

@@Carewolf that sounds boring

[@Carewolf]

@@pn2294 It is matter of taste. Generally soft magic is considered acceptable for children's stories, where grown ups tend to like things that make sense internally. But there is nothing wrong with liking childish things, just keep in mind why some might look down upon it as simplistic.

[@pn2294]

@@Carewolf you say that as though soft magic systems can’t make sense internally Harry Potter and Magiranger have soft magic systems but their logic is easy to follow

[@christoferguson]

As much as I love doing philosophical analyses of fiction and media like this, I really hope the discourse doesn't turn into an argument over definitions, or placing value judgements on stories because "boo hard magic equals bad" or something similar. My thought is that if the magic, whether hard or soft in structure, serves the narrative, then it's doing its job. Narratives can have all different kinds of experiences, including feeling lost in a "magical" world or feeling empowered by coming to understand the magic in the world. But if readers are enjoying a story, and then get caught up in "Well, can I call it magical if I understand it better?", then I think we're detracting from what fiction is all about. The goal of fiction, at least for me, is to wish something were real. No matter how well I may come to understand Sanderson's magic systems, there will always be some point where I will simply have to accept that it exists in the Cosmere and not in the real universe. I will eventually have to accept that there are no more answers and that it simply is. So, to some degree, it is magical according to your definition. But now I'm arguing definitions--see how easy it is? My point is that no matter how magical or scientific a story is (if you adhere to that dichotomy), if we're willing to suspend our disbelief, engage with the story, and wish it were real, then the story has succeeded.

[@Leandro-vy7nj]

This is also described in Rothfuss's Kingkiller chronicles. As Kvothe learns about the academically applied "magic", the more he learns, the less he regards it as magic and becomes bored with it as a result. Which is why he becomes a lot more interested in the naming of things, as it really represents a more intuitive and irrational type of magic that is impossible to understand.

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

I loved the part too about how alchemy is magical to him through he doesn’t consider it magic. It’s a system he just does not grasp though others can and he also has no interest in continuing in. The scene is a friend comes up with an alchemical solution to something, and Kvothe protests saying that the components together would be dangerous and opposite to what he wants. But then it works and Kvothe’s response is along the lines of: “Apparently, I really don’t understand alchemy.”

[@louismaciver8262]

​@@toodleselnoodos6738HOW CAN SOMETHING WITH WATER IN IT BE FLAMMABLE??? Repeat after me: I know nothing about alchemy

[@pyropulseIXXI]

I think only fools get bored with something when they understand it better. Things only get more mystical and wonderous when you understand how things work, because it is a miracle that can happen at all

[@katokianimation]

​@@pyropulseIXXIi think it is closed minded to think that the only reason is why people feel the way you don't like it is bc they are fool. Also no way you can prove it...

[@KikaNinja]

I LOVE THAT SERIES SO MUCH

[@j-motions9894]

My and my friend had a discussion about the line between “science” and “magic” and my like starting point was that if magic was real it wouldn’t be magic, it would be science. Our consensus ig was that if we can fully explain something and how and why it works it’s “science”, but if we don’t know the how or the why it works but simply that it “does” then it is magic.” Something we argued was that what about the beginning of the universe, we don’t truly know how or why but rather that it happened and he said then it might as well be magic (within the space of topic) but if we could make fire out of thin air with our hands but be able to perfectly explain it then it would be science. I haven’t thought of that convo in a while and this video just happened to remind me of it and I appreciate that

[@josephedmondson1969]

In a series I'm working on, I created a mage whose main power is control over plant-life, even has little plant-like familiars that aid him. However, if he tries more complex spells, it shortens his lifespan. So in my case, I guess I'm playing with both soft and hard magic. Side note: Those little Tale-loids at the end are so darn cute! ^_^

[@muntu1221]

The complex spells would only be soft magic if the audience doesn't know what they do. If we know he can make an entire forest get up and march, but it'll shorten his lifespan, then it's hard magic. We know its effect and cost in specifics.

[@ravenclawfairy3648]

I really enjoy your channel ❤️ Your voice is so soothing to me and I've been watching a lot of these videos lately to help me calm down from my stressful week. So thank you so much for being here ❤️❤️

[@locustofchiron]

I like to point back to the Young Wizards series as one of my favorite Hard Magic examples. In the second book the main characters are taking some people to the moon, and their passengers are confused as to why they have to worry about things like calculating the amount of energy needed for the 4 of them + Oxygen to reach escape velocity if it's magic. The response is that ultimately magic is just another way of manipulating energy, they just get that energy from places that we don't understand and utilizes mystic principles (bring along a moon rock because it remembers the way back to where it came from) to keep it from becoming too bogged down in itself and making magic still feel magical. I read Young Wizards around the same time I read Harry Potter, and I was almost so much more enchanted with Young Wizards because I felt like I could be a Wizard if I could somehow learn the Speech.

[@lazylazerrsp8781]

My favorite system is a hard and strictly defined ruleset of magic. The reason being that the more rules the world follows the more tools I have to work with and the more stable of a foundation. Nothing upsets me more than a character suddenly using a "I win" card, not because of a hither to unknown facet of the world but because the world was never defined enough to set it up to be reasonable. To me, the vagueness just screams an unfinished system like a wonderful tapestry where looking too close or far reveals nothing but frayed threads that was never worked on. It's probably the main reason I love isekai stories, since it brings a more scientific mind to explore a world of magic. A character discovering the hidden mechanism behind the supernatural doesn't erase the magic to me but creates a layer of believability to help bridge the gap from reality that would otherwise just remain akin to dream logic.

[@St33ldancer]

I love both soft and hard magic. They both have their places, and i adore both.

[@thedragonknight5194]

Honestly, for me it's more about the result. I love to know about how a given magic system works, and it doesn't stop being magic because... Well, you can throw fireballs, you can shoot lightning, you can fly through the air unnassited, you can turn invisible, etc. Knowing how magic happens doesnt make it less magical to me because what is happening is still awe-inspiring.

[@libbyford6765]

A book I cant recommend enough, the night circus, explores this gorgeous dreamlike soft magic the best I have ever seen, its truly transcendent and beautiful

[@TheNeonLynx]

As far as story telling goes I think that "wondrous magic" is something that can never be performed by the characters from which perspective we see it and it has to be something they cannot experience on a regular basis. So I think it is something that has to be used very differently than systematic magic which is usually something far more accessible watching Baba Yaga casting a spell in a world that mirrors our own is wondrous magic. A cave man figuring out how to create fire for the first time is systematic magic. From the perspective of the character these 2 things both seem unexplainable, however one can be repeated while the other is something they cannot recreate. So I think both version have their usage it is just weither you want your character to simply experience magic or to explore it.

[@groofay]

One magic system I love is the Warrens from the Malazan books. They're volatile and have a will of their own. You can open them for a magical effect, if they're willing; you can travel through them, at your risk; they might possess you, drive you mad, turn you into an agent of indiscriminate destruction. There have been attempts in the world to categorize and map them, and they have names; but they are entities unto themselves, older than mortal understanding, and defy such things.

[@ChaosXcrusheD]

One of the things that made malazan so good. Despite how long magic had been around, people were still trying to understand it...with apparently no one coming as close as quick ben (albeit which is why he was so good at it)

[@EricMcLuen]

Malazan also has multiple systems - warrens, holds, the Wiccans, blood, whatever Azath are, etc.

[@bearieroblox6451]

I’ll put it this way, we don’t have monsters in real life because we call them animals, we don’t have magic in real life because we call it science. Think about that the next time you’re wondering what happened to your magical childlike wonder of the world.

[@yishnir]

The authors who best captured the 'feeling of magic' for me were Andre Norton (Witch World), Jack Vance (The Dying Earth), Ursula LeGuin (Earthsea), C J Cherryl (Rusalka), and Susanna Clarke (Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell), though the 'Magic' children's book series by Ruth Chew captured that feeling pretty well, too.

[@AMcGrath82]

I completely agree that the term has become so conflated it's in danger of losing meaning. But I can proudly say that, in the setting I've created, the word "magic" breaks free of the obstacle warned of in this video. The more you know about it, the more wondrous and unpredictable it becomes.

[@sillynapalm]

Your animation reminds me of an old movie I watched. It's called 9. Something eerie yet comforting about it.

[@trustymccoolguy4259]

I like when stories do this, I like thinking of magic as “unlocking what’s already there” or “all magic is just science we don’t understand yet” I look at magic as science fiction. I absolutely loved Doctor Strange’s explanation of “magic”

[@mezla_]

This is why Malazan has my favorite magic of all time. It’s actually magical. When you turn magic into fictional science it can really take all the magic out of it. (See rhythm of war)

[@inzanozulu]

This is why "The Ancient Magus' Bride" has really captured me. It feels like watching Harry Potter for the first time. Or Pan's Labyrinth. Magical magic

[@Mx.muffin]

I like explaining things in great detail in my stories, but I also just like chalking up things to "it just happens." A good example of mine is how I deeply explain what happens when someone dies, but why those things happen are just chalked up to "The Universe simply wanted it to happen." A person can become a ghost, but how they are a ghost is just because they can. A grim reaper can conjure up any weapon they want, but how? They just can. An item can contain the power of an element, but how? It simply is. The combination of hard magic and soft magic is interesting to me, and I use it a lot.

[@quackermanz2897]

There are 2 of my favorite renditions of magic, one is Wild Magic which adds a more natural uncontrollable element to magic which to me makes it seem so truly magical in a childlike sense, plus it spices up DnD. The other is type the Fullmetal Alchemist's version of "magic" where it's all science, and I've seriously come to appreciate it more since I started watching Dr. Stone, it really appeals to my logical sense of discovering how magic works.

[@brittahasnofilter]

my friend is playing a wild magic sorcerer in our campaign and it is SO fun. I love how many silly little problems it gives us, plus the genuine fear of being fireballed at any moment really adds to the unpredictable nature of magic

[@Blazingstudios882]

You’re the most underrated channel I have ever watched

[@zenotaddei]

That's why I love transistors. There is no explanations on why they work and none is required, they just work!

[@steeldarling5116]

One of my favorite magic 'systems' is the one used in Pact and Pale by Wildbow. It's based on old folklore, and somehow manages to evoke both the wonder of Tolkeinesque soft magic and the desire for the characters to use it in a clever and interesting way. Forswear lies and broken oaths, let your word be bond, and the very world will listen when you speak.

[@justincribbs1108]

'Bow is a beast and a wonderful author 💙😁🙌😎

[@steeldarling5116]

@@justincribbs1108 Ayo, a fellow aficionado in the wild!

[@laundmo]

oh yes i just commented something similar. much less eloquent and more rambly listing things about it.

[@saikithepsiioniic1358]

That's why I find some of the best magic stories as ones that have a thorough magical system, and then later on a few people show up with a different kind of magic that completely breaks it and should not be possible at all. Those people feel truly magical as you've already accepted the normal magic system.

[@specialknees6798]

My favorite type of magic is probably hard magic that has to be discovered by the main characters over the course of the book or series. It's one of the reasons why I prefer the Stormlight Archive's magic over Mistborn, despite the latter usually being touted as the best system out there. In mistborn, Kelsier and his crew sort of just explain everything to Vin as soon as she's discovered as mistborn. Much of the mystery is taken away. Contrast this to stormlight where for the first book, we learn very little about the magic system, because it's been absent from the world for centuries. So when weird shit starts happening to Kaladin and Shallan, we just have to figure it out with them as the series goes on. Lightbringer is another example where the system is explained to the reader in small doses. So while those in the world know how it works, we don't. This allows for a sense of logic and continuity within the world while also maintaining the mystery of magic.

[@chenoaholdstock3507]

The Magnus's Bride does an excellent join of keeping magic magical, no matter how much we learn about it

[@dvillines26]

that's cause it's all about contracts with fae folk. few things as awesomely alien as well-written fae type characters. I also kind of never want an explanation for what the hell Elias is.

[@gregorysandy2960]

​@@dvillines26 it's more than just that though, Magecraft is contracts with fae folk, but there's also sorcery, both the innate spell casters like dnd and wizardry with is also considered sorcery. Then witches with magical hexing, which also differs from sorcery.

[@GeorgeDCowley]

Is that the Chess crossover?

[@chenoaholdstock3507]

VDX it's a romance anime where a big skull monster thing adopts/buys a magic girl to learn how human emotions work

[@ronaldcounterman5812]

Your insights into Galadriel's words ARE amazing and profound. I now see it more deeply than I did while reading it. Thanks.

[@Silly_Andres]

I love how every comment is talking about completely different magics or magic systems from different books, games, shows, etc Love how everyone could apply this video to what piece of media they are into and just share with everyone else

[@amyloriley]

To me, magnetism is the closest this world comes to magic. You can explain it to me, you can elaborate on positive and negative poles used to attract and repel. And sure, I can understand it. But every time I see one magnet repelling another, or when one magnet yoinks the other magnet from my hand when I keep them centimeters from each other... that moment is still magic to me. To this day, I cannot believe my eyes playing with magnets, even with all the knowledge of them. Magnets break my everyday physics every time.

[@grantwilson4506]

Plausible progression is a nice way to keep magic engaging for children and adults. If a character performs a magic act that is more powerful or different from what they've been shown to do before but is connected in some way, it feels like the system has some sense to it. Otherwise, it is hard to feel like the story has any stakes. If a magical character can presumably do anything, it makes it suspicious when they do not.

[@andromedastormcrow3288]

I really want to write a story that actually makes use of the magic turned scientific thing. A story about a small group of soldiers in a war where the enemy is using industilized magic, mages are a branch of their enemy's military. Their captain carries a pamphet that has various arcane movemnts recorded so she can figure out what enemy mages are casting. These soldiers are mostly ordinary people, they might have a medic who knows how to make healing potions, and cast a few simple spells, thier capatian has her own strange magic. But nothing they do can compaire to the power of these mages they are up against. I want to write a "ww1" story set in a high fantasy setting, where magic has become the machines of war.

[@john80944]

I think you're underestimating what a "system" can do. You can make a system, which is made by humans who tried to break down the ineffable of "magic", then you can create a dilemma that you absolutely need a system to convey meanings, but all the meanings you're conveying might be wrong, or only suitable when languages are spoken. But how many magical life forms and forces don't speak human language? That's how the Otherverse system of Pact and Pale works: it doesn't work, but it's necessary that it works, so human MADE IT WORKS, with *spoilers*. Is magic defined by humans, or by Others? That's one of the questions this system can make. I'm surprised that you don't know this kind of system can exist in wide fantasy genre. But consider you might not read web serial, so it might be WAY out of your league.

[@alagaalaga9217]

That's a really interesting point

[@TheTaleFoundry]

How can it "not work" if humans can "make it work"? That just sounds like the beginning of a scientific study to me. -Benji, showrunner

[@john80944]

​@@TheTaleFoundry If you observe anything long enough, everything and anything can be part of science, however, this is just putting the function of demystifying onto "observation", so if your subjects can't be observed by nature, all you can do is drawing its possible outline. And that's one of the ways how human forced magic/Practice to work. Because outline is drawing, sketching, describing, and those techniques can be pass down and developed. The magic and supernatural become something solid and predictable, in certain limited view of universe. The ineffable can be still ineffable, but it is effable... in some ways. If you want to name it science or some fields of research, I will argue that terms and languages academia uses are every often, superficially, looks just like spells and mystic bullshits. And if your general field is large enough, a different set of Practice will look like bullshit. That's part of how magic systems in Otherverse works. But an enchantress still can be fucked by a strange Fae from strange court. A dream runner still can be blindsighted by whimsical laws of dream land. And if you want to check out how the author, Wildbow, danced between the non-rational mysticism and systematic science, and to see how language can binds and liberates images at the same time, you can just go and read. Every material is free: Pact and Pale and Pact Web Serial Wiki are all free to read. I just don't think magic system as a way to portray or invoke the feeling of fantastic is so limited as you think.

[@savethebees2574]

I think about this a lot, especially when I look at really complicated things here in the real world that have a scientific base, but are basically magic to 99% of people (think quantum mechanics or the complexities of radiation)

[@infinymagnus]

Personally I prefer magic to have rules of some kind. Things it can and cannot do. For me if the magic in a story can seamingly do anything then there is no narritve tention.

[@sansventura7199]

It’s a fundamental rule of the universe that the universe has rules, even if we can’t understand them or are incapable of understanding them. Just because it’s an unknown or unknowable quantity doesn’t mean it isn’t without some guiding principle, much like our own universe and sciences, we know everything is governed by a set of rules but we are still learning all the ins and outs of them is all. Some magic systems just choose to leave it purposely vague so the reader can fill in the blanks, some give a hyper detailed scientific understanding of their systems so you can experiment and tinker around with them. Magic is the science of the worlds they spawn from, no more different than our own, even if we can’t understand them in their entirety within specific stories doesn’t mean that theirs not some governing principle that binds their world together. Even in worlds where the point is that there are no rules, and chaos is the only thing that matters, that in itself is a rule and a way of understanding the universe. Magic is simply the manner of which whimsy and fun meets terror and violence, each fictional world that uses it simply balances each side out and divides it up at their creative leisure. Just because it can be explained through our Lens of science doesn’t take away the spark that makes it fun, it just makes it easier for us to grasp. Even without that understanding, it doesn’t take away the universe rule of rules.

[@MikaelaKMajorHistory]

I really like this. I made my magic system more like science in my world. The two go hand in hand, but to those who don’t use or study it, like some science, it’s absolutely fascinating or terrifying. To those who use it all the time, it’s definitely cool, like a scientist who’s made a breakthrough, but much of it is just a process they regularly do day after day like a scientist going through the scientific processes (and trials and errors) in order to make a breakthrough

[@JubulusPrime]

Personally I love detailed magic systems, I like when things make sense, Magic systems are like the laws of physics but 100x cooler and allows the characters to do cool stuff. monsters with magic evolved into them and magic tools are also really cool which I like a lot more then "It is magic, do not question it!" Like I do not see why logic must be removed when you have magic, if magic is simple and doesn't give an explanation then it is just nonsense and I have no reason to think a dragon breathing fire is cool because duhh someone just thought about it breathing fire so there is no cool reasoning on how they could do it and why fire, magic without explanation is just meaningless to me imo but I do see why a lot of people like it (they just want to see the cool attacks and do not care about how it is done)

[@smarmydude3019]

I don't think that's the moral of the video; I believe the point is that magic, when easily explained, risks no longer being magical to the audience, and it's important to preserve that wonderment. I think the best approach is to tell them what the bare minimum is to suspend their disbelief, and no more. The audience doesn't need to know that dragons breathe fire because of a complex gland that interacts with magic and mimics spells, but a drop of dragonblood being an important ingredient for fire elixirs might be necessary information under the right circumstances, and just knowing that won't suddenly rip away the magical feeling of the magic. I also like hard magic systems, but I think going forward, my stance will be to make my systems justifiable to myself, and always internally consistent, but never share the inner workings with anyone, except for the occasional necessary brief glimpse.

[@ninjabgwriter]

Ok I'm very interested in this video and haven't seen it the whole way through yet, but my jaw dropped at that gorgeous animated intro, absolutely subscribed.

[@ninjabgwriter]

I was right, this was straight up my alley. In addition, I actually have a fun instance of science FEELING like magic in an inherently magical world. I'm writing a campaign setting for a TTRPG that's basically my LotR meets Treasure Planet take on Spelljammer, an old D&D setting for 2e that was recently re released for 5e. I've homebrewed a now extinct alien race that's very much sci fi, with very specific and highly advanced technology based off of an understanding of science and physics that surpasses our own in the real world, and most certainly surpasses the understanding of those in universe. That's because their technology is heavily based off of magic. For instance, some people have things that are basically microwaves, but are run by brief bursts of portals opening to the Elemental Plane of Fire to cook food. But it's still run off of magic and fantastical laws, and in my setting, magic is partially based off of belief or suspension of disbelief. It's part of how I have slightly different magic systems across different worlds, because the inhabitants BELIEVE it works that way. More or less like magic is a malleable force that is shaped by the perception of a sentient creature. It's as immutable or rational as it's perceived to be. Kind of like how quantum physics change when observed. So their magical technology lends itself well to replication. If you know exactly how the people who used it before thought it worked, great. But if you rationalize a way that makes sense to you and truly believe it SHOULD work, it shifts the way it functions to accommodate that perception. This scientific technology doesn't do that. It functions the way it was built, and only that way. It works for the reasons it works, not because someone believes they understand it. And THAT is the most confounding thing to the people of that world. This technology has a rigid, immutable system that is based off of an entirely different technological path than theirs, and they don't remotely have the foundation to even begin understanding it. So this science is flipped on its head to feel like magic! It can't be replicated or understood by the modern people, so they're mysteries and finite resources. Part of why I did this is there's sort of a... 'Pandora's box' for mixing fantasy and sci fi that I found while trying to develop this world. If you lean too far into sci fi, it no longer feels like fantasy. For instance, Avatar the Last Airbender felt very magical to me. Korra did not, it felt like early 1900s with bending. The airplane and radios and electricity really broke immersion, and I think it's hard for people to imagine how a society of comparable technological advancement to the current day would function aside from just... copying the real world. And for sci fi, does it matter if the Enterprise is run off of 'warp nacelles' or 'runic drives' if it's still basically Star Trek? Keeping the well understood and commonly used technology more firmly rooted in fantasy, and having the sci fi elements be rare, irreplicatable, and incomprehensible kind of preserves the vibe I'm going for while still allowing the genres to mix, and ironically making them feel more magical.

[@ratdealer_]

I really like this because I think this concept also fits with our idea of aliens or magical creatures, I feel like many of the modern day animals we have would be alien to anyone who’s never seen it before like a frog or a scorpion, and I remember hearing that this same phenomenon may have happened in the bible with theories that the behemoth was just a hippo and the leviathan was an aligator, if a real extra terrestrial came to earth then to us it would he alien, but after only a few generations it would just be another animal

[@carso1500]

I mean extra terrestrial just means "from outside earth" so something wouldnt stop being extra terrestrial unless it has mixed soo much with the local fauna or flora that it has become part of the ecosystem (which may be imposible btw, diferent compositions, evolutions and posibly even biochemistry would mean that the extra terrestrial always remains external from our ecosystem, incompatible, alien)

[@yourmum69_420]

I had this same thought but with "monsters" rather than "aliens" Just look at a 3 meter long, man-eating tiger and tell me how it's not a monster