What is an Anti-VILLAIN?

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We've all heard of Anti-Heroes, everyone's favorite unrepentant "good guy". But what about their opposite? What about everyone's favorite "bad guy"? They aren't talked about nearly as often, but there is a word for it. They're called: Anti-Villains.
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[@TheTaleFoundry]

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[@rudiogalfrednielsen7467]

Hi :)

[@eyalmeirbarnea8706]

Look , i am a big fan of your channel and that is partly because of your skeptism and your ability to jidge characters from different perspectives . Let me offer you my own perspective : i think that the perfect example of anti villans are villans that trying to be evil or scary but can't succeed and allwase getting beaten up by the good guys in the most homorous ways . Anti villains for me are a pathetic villain that insted of causing problams to others he accidently cause problams to himself , even go as far as asking the heroes for help and enjoying their company before going back into pretending to be an evil villain. Examples for ACTUAL anti villans whould be : the ice king , plankton , doctor doofenshmirtz , gru , hater (wander over yonder ), mega-mind etc ... I know that you look at these villains and say : these are not anti villains , they are the perfect steriotypes for trying to be the most redicuesly evil as possible . and you are right to think that being redicuesly evil in parodies or children cartoons don't live any place for personallity or something different , and when it's a childish drama then these type of villains whould remane recuring antagonists with no personality . but when you use these types of "redicuesly evil" villains in less dramatic evil and more philosophical comedy , you find moments where these villains are not evil , and even doing good . Perry the platipus and dr doofenshmirtz are protrayed as the best friends in the show "phinias and pherb" and if you saw them when they are helping to save the world tougether , you whould guess that one supposed to be an evil scientist and the other the agent who sent to stop him . Whould you really call characters like him villains ? Whould you really put them in the same category as the joker ? Good moral or bad moral ,your version of "anti villains" stay the same , a terrfiying character that succeed both at doing bad things and make the good characters realize it is something to fear from and fight agianst . Think outside the box

[@zachshirley4806]

All of this talk about heros, anti heros, villain, and anti villain made me think of series called Worm by Wildbow have you ever read or looked into it? It could be said to be mix of Marvel and DC but with strange realistic twist/explanations on why things work the way they do in hero store. In this story they have the unwritten rules a few being no guns, no killing of other powered individuals, no attacking people at home or out of costume, no sharing attempts to find out someone secret identity. This all based on if you are at top or bottom of the world in power as those who make the rules don't have to obey them.

[@TheOnlyGuyInQC]

I think you put your add twice in the video

[@alejotassile6441]

I actually didn't watch harry potter so it's like being in a coma since 2005 lol

[@NoNo-zk1rx]

I think Dr. Doofenshmirtz from Phineas and Ferb is a textbook “anti-villain.” Only technically a bad guy, but is still a caring father and best friends with Perry the Platypus. Whenever a real threat comes around, he’s almost always on the side of good.

[@kengored_alt]

Was about to say the same thing

[@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868]

"You've done more damage trying to be good than you ever did while evil"

[@InfernoVor]

With the explanation my first thought was him lmao

[@diablo.the.cheater]

You see, he soo incompetent, that by being in evil side, it makes the people on that side less competent overall, so he is actually a hero, an unintentional hero.

[@MysticMylesZ]

Yep, his goals are bad, often succeeds in committing at least 1 crime, but always fails, never does significant harm, or anything that could really be considered evil 😂 And has ethics, even when another version of him does take over the... (I forgot if it was world or country) he still ends up going against that.

[@gyiouss]

I absolutely love the "polite villain" - someone who you meet at first doing some good thing, saving a kitten, whatever, then at some point their actual goal becomes clear.

[@rickrose6881]

One of my all time favorite anti-villains has got to be Smee from Peter pan. In almost every rendition, he's upbeat, friendly, lovable, but ultimately very loyal to the pirates, specifically Captain Hook. Really, it's just his loyalties that come across villainous. In the Disney animated version, when Captain Hook is trying to trick Tinkerbell, he suggests he will simply sail away, and Smee is immediately on board with that. No desire for revenge, no need for conflict. He's just Smee, and he's there for his buddies. Who, it just so happens, are bloodthirsty pirates.

[@yurisich]

My favorite polite villain is Adrian Veidt. Surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video.

[@yurisich]

My favorite polite villain is Adrian Veidt. Surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video.

[@r4nd0mguy99]

I absolutely hate a certain polite villain: Aizen from the anime "Bleach". When he was introduced, he was the nicest one out of all the commanders, but it turns out that he just hypnotised everyone. His weapon enables absolute hynotism and the worst part is that that's probably possible without even unlocking the weapon's potential. Bleach's weapons are called "Zanpakuto" and have two forms: Shikai and Bankai. The Shikai is the form they usually fight with and it's essentially just a magic sword. The Bankai is the true form of the Zanpakuto and usually involves summoning a huge something. What I'm trying to say is that Bleach's powerlevels are fucking worthless. Aizen can just make you stab your allies.

[@ayudameporfavor1146]

@rickrose6881 captain hook wasn't ever really any more a villain than Peter Pan himself

[@WhaleManMan]

Anti-Hero= Someone not so heroic who is still on the side of good. Anti-Villain=Someone not so villainous who is still on the side of evil.

[@filipvadas7602]

Dreadwing from TF Prime immediately comes to mind. He had all the qualities of an autobot, but who just happened to be a Decepticon.

[@TnS260]

Examples: Anti-Heros = Robin Hood, Jack Sparrow, Wolverine, Deadpool, Catwomen, Sandman. Anti-Villians = Yzma, Loki, Agent Smith, Dr.Doofenshmirtz, Harley Quinn, Mega-Mind, Snape. I change this list because people seem to get offended of it 🤣

[@NoOne-wz2ht]

​@@TnS260 wasn't Snape revealed to be a spy for Dumbledore

[@flamesofchaos13]

@@NoOne-wz2ht Loki at least his variant became good in the Loki show. I'm thinking they're Anti-Villains that transitioned into Anti-Heroes. Or they're right in the middle between them.

[@TnS260]

@@lilglitchboi7259 Not really, he start cooking meth to make money for his family before he died of cancer, however people and bad situations eventually got in his way leading to him having to kill people. Gus Fring has done some evil things throughout the series, and has not done much to redeem himself. He has sold methamphetamines which have ruined many lives, is responsible for the death of many innocent people, and is a drug kingpin. All of these traits show that Gus Fring is not an anti-villain. He is purely a villain.

[@Satan_The_Mastermind]

Anti-Hero: Acts like a Villain but is ultimately a hero Anti-Villain: Acts like a Hero but is ultimately a Villain

[@haku7335]

I still dont get the concept how you csn do good without wanting to achive good.

[@ragnarokaeon8242]

@haku7335 The trick is that they want *do* to achieve good to the point that sometimes their actions become extreme. The difference between anti-heroes and anti-villains, is that anti-villains are either mistaken about reality or they hold very different values that goes against the audience's. Both anti-heroes and anti-villains have qualities of both heroes and villains, and their designation comes down to their goals at the end.

[@KryptonicR]

​@haku7335 Consider this: The Villain: "I plan on taking over this city and putting these people under my control!" Hero: "So you plan on forcefully asserting your dominance over the cities laws and people?" Villian: "No, I'm running for City Council"

[@Raviollius]

@haku7335 Lex Luthor building an orphanage for better optics so he can run for mayor to consolidate political power with the ultiamte goal of defeating Superman

[@haku7335]

So yall r saying an antivillain would for example save 1000 people just to get a chance to get promotdd to dictator to rule the world. Essentially nice guying your way ro aorld domination?

[@yokokurama5174]

"Oh you are a villain alright, just not an ANTI one!" "Oh yeah? And what's the difference?" "INTENTION!!"

[@msk-qp6fn]

😂

[@muhammadalifto8076]

I think the right word is "MOTIVATION". Cause that almost rhymed as "PRESENTATION".

[@Rekhan4242]

Love the reference!

[@Satan_The_Mastermind]

@@yokokurama5174 *Welcome to the Jungle starts*

[@agadhrp6772]

"I got that reference!"

[@Grumpy_old_Boot]

Magneto in the Marvel comic universe, kept flipping between Villain, anti-villain, anti-hero and even hero in a few stories. A wonderfully complex character in many ways.

[@CuriouslyWatching]

Yea, I was hoping to see him mentioned here

[@Comicbookguy226]

Same with Venom

[@Xamto7]

Doctor doom in the comics is actually an anti-villain too, he wants to rule the world because he believes he can make it better

[@davidlucey1311]

He’s the first one I thought of

[@sakuseihuoshen]

​@@Xamto7And he's right

[@GlacialSkyfarer]

I don't know if he's mentioned here, but Bowser is literally only evil if he's the only threat present. Even then, he's happy to play sports and race with people. As soon as any bigger threat comes along, such as the shroobs or cackletta, he's immediately on the side of the Mario brothers.

[@blueberrimuffin6682]

He's smarter than people give him credit for. I genuinely think he just kidnaps Peach for fun at this point, like a sort of "Hey Mario, come check out my radical obstacle course!"

[@Nin-Saber]

More like begrudgingly on their side but yeah. If anyone's gonna conquer the world, it's gonna be him and him only.

[@cellbuilder2]

In Paper Mario: The Origami King it was Bowser's minions that were turned into Folded Soldiers by King Olly, plus Bowser's castle-island was wrecked. Not to mention Scissors sliced up Bowser Junior, which at that point made Bowser's revenge personal. So he sided with Mario as the best way to get it, as he knew Mario also had some scores to settle with Olly. He even tells Olly that if even he, the Koopa King, couldn't beat Mario, then there was no way in hell Olly would win.

[@TheAwesomeCouch]

Hero: "you're helping us!?" Villain: " well yeah, I can't rule the world if there isn't one there."

[@t.rickee]

@@TheAwesomeCouch This reminds me of Eggman in some games

[@JackbenImbel2274]

Damn you @TheTaleFoundry, I pride myself on being able to stop watching videos whenever I want, but you keep on making really enticing videos that I feel will make my stories that much better, and so I keep clicking. Damn you, thank you.

[@aquilliusranger2137]

Another great example of an anti-villain is Megamind, a “villain” who’s former backstory is pretty tragic knowing he basically coped with being ostracized along with his fish friend for being literally different from his classmates, and that makes me relate to him more immensely. Him becoming a predicted “villain” was one thing, Megamind becoming both a hero and an anti-villain is something else entirely. I love that about him.

[@selfimprovement5873]

For me he can't really be an anti villain. He tried to destroy Metroman and proceeded to terrorize the city after he was gone. Once he was bored he created another villain in hopes he could have a new playmate. All he did was clean up his own mess by the end of the movie. It was a good movie I just think calling him an anti-villain is a bit disingenuous.

[@aquilliusranger2137]

@@selfimprovement5873 You forgot one key arc of Megamind: his “accidental” journey as a hero. Because he was a “villain”, he struggled with the idea that you can just be evil without a hero fighting you all the time, further diminishing the fact that he isn’t as bad as he seems, another thing that throws off his villainous persona further was the supposed love interest of Metro Man, Roxanne, who not only is disgusted by the disappearance of Metro Man (who, BTW…had his OWN personal journey), but was undeniably making Megamind more and more like a normal, breathing being who’s just misunderstood and coped with being the “monster” of the story until she showed him a different side to life while he was under disguise as a regular human being, further conflicting him of the fact that at the same time he is mentoring the “hero”, except this hero, for a lack of a better word, was an incel who was harassing Roxanne unlike Megamind, who just disguised himself as someone who he, yes, MEGAMIND, HE subconsciously yearns to become: a normal guy, rather than obsessing over a girl like the so-called hero he was mentoring. All that changed when the hero he was mentoring becomes a villain of the story by kidnapping Roxanne, and he’d had to track down not just Roxanne but Metro Man to see if he can stop the villainous “hero” chasing down Megamind and destroying the city out of pure rage of rejection by Roxanne, it didn’t worked out in both Roxanne and Megamind’s favor, obviously, as Metro Man had already left that life behind. Yet, Metro Man made that exact same dilemma to Megamind, but absolutely plainly, to be the balance of the story, you must heed the call of a turn of the journey regardless of your past life and your past “mistakes” (because sure, Megamind was lying about his identity to Roxanne, he was tricking a guy into being a hero of the story and let a villain loose instead, but I can’t lie, him just wanting to fix the problem instead of letting it loose was a real positive trait of his), in a way, it’s an amazing twist of fate that Metro Man was basically like a longtime friend to Megamind, knew of his wrongdoings as kids and tried to reconcile HIS issues, despite how selfish their relationships were. In the end, it’s not about whether or not you like somebody or deem them as worthy of fault in every single corners, but rather, respect their integrity to push through the journey not as a stubborn fool who clings to the past and blame everybody else but their own, but to grow into the future as a better person who knows that their own actions DO in fact have consequences and must LIVE UP to it, if that type of anti-villainous journey to redemption isn’t inspiring, then I don’t know what is. The only thing an anti-villain looks up and see, is their own distant stars, and Megamind sure as hell made a grand entrance with that!

[@ishma2100]

I was going to say dr. Evil from Austin Powers

[@Tribalfan88x]

Megamind is merely a victim of bullying. He was just unlucky to be picked on. Metro Man could have suffered a very similar fate, he was just lucky enough to be liked for his being-different.

[@aquilliusranger2137]

@@Tribalfan88x Exactly, I wasn’t letting both Metro Man AND Megamind’s responsibilities and actions go unnoticed, good or bad in others and theirs perspective, especially Megamind who “allegedly” was able to kill Metro Man and get away with it within the entire city’s eyes, but that’s the thing, Metro Man ISN’T dead and Roxanne was probably the news reporter that alluded the public thereafter Megamind became a hero, to the fact that Metro Man really isn’t dead after all, just retired, but we never get a further explanation other than Metro Man becoming an actual civilian like Superman as Clarke Kent. For Megamind, sure, people don’t want to think that his position was rightfully earned after he “killed” Metro Man, but if the city public had a choice, I’d think they rather take a former villain who reformed themselves into heroes than it is a “hero” who ended up being the villain that threaten the safety of everybody, it really is just that straightforward, even if people had the absolute right’s to distrust Megamind and his actions.

[@iamsushi1056]

I feel like antihero, and even more so, antivillain, are missing pieces that make up "middle steps" between hero and villain, and once you consider all four you start to see it more as a spectrum

[@barrytheflashallen3941]

I feel for the anti-villains, they are overlooked.

[@shenotski]

It's what character is right for the story the 'no good or evil' view on writing is a limiting one. And Thanos sucks because his entire thesis to solve his issue is flawed because god forbit he make a universe of plenty with god powers.

[@MD.Akib_Al_Azad]

​@@shenotskiWell, he is a Titan or whatever the deformed eternals are called

[@kstar1489]

Eh, they aren’t really useful for morality, they are just terms for story archetypes

[@barrytheflashallen3941]

@@kstar1489 They are useful, its just people are so high on antiheroes.

[@Altsncro]

Anti-Villians and Anti-heroes are by far one of my favorite tropes solely because of how these charachters can easily flip and change roles while forcing a audience to question their own morality alongside the charachters. The most important bit is that these charachters create a difficult challenge for the Protagonists, the question of "What if we are wrong" that is exceeded by the catharsis and possblty of a twist revealing that the Protagonists were in the wrong.,

[@pukooox]

I think it's because anti-heroes and anti-vilains are close to what heroes and vilains are to 'grown humans'. When we're young, we tend to see the world in two ways : Good and Bad. It's either black or white. But we never question if Good, is truly that Good... Or if Bad is truly that Bad ? And when we grow, we discover things. We learn from people. And most people you will meet, will make you realize that they weren't as bad as you thought they would be... just as people you expected to be good, were, in fact, not that gentle or kind. Show to a young men Deadpool. He'll see him as a crazy dude who kills people, and has no moral. Wait for that young men to grow, and he will start understanding why this character isn't that evil deep down.

[@msk-qp6fn]

They represent the real world, I say. Sure we still have the whites and blacks, but the real world is full of various shade of grays, so to say. It's probably why the audience become more intrigued by their story more, even if they do root for the morally good hero. They also serve as challenges for our heroes as many would agree, on a fundamental level and this is just a very interesting story no matter which way it goes. Personally I like it when antivillains (or antiheroes) become the hero's mentor or guardian in some way, similarly how long john silver became a semi father and mentor figure to jim hawkins in treasure planet.

[@Briselance]

​@myu1419 "He isn't that evil, deep down"? In the movies? Eh, maybe. In some comic? He is. Period.

[@ambertypereiraty3627]

I love this channel!!! And being a frequent reader of the wiki Television Tropes and Idioms in my youth, I'm loving your explanation of common and uncommon story tropes. ❤😍🥰❤

[@Old_Jack_Ketch]

Here in Australia we had a famous gangster named Mark Brandon ‘Chopper’ Read, who fits the notion of ‘likeable villain’ perfectly. Undoubtedly a bad bad man, he was also charming and hilariously funny. Even police detectives who knew him well over many years could never be 100% sure when he was pretending to confess but just joking, or pretending to tell a joke that later on turned out to be a confession.

[@C0ldIron]

I would think Ned Kelly would be the first to come to mind for Australian anti-villains.

[@invisibleman4827]

And he only seemed to target other criminals rather than innocent people - or at least that was the image he created, so that gave him extra brownie point in the public eye.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

This makes me think of how certain criminals, particularly bootleggers and bank robbers, became folk heroes in North America during the Wild West, Prohibition, and Depression eras. Billy the Kid, Jesse James, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, and the Black Donnely family come to mind as villains and outlaws who were notorious, but whose exploits were loved by the public and press. Even in high school in the 1990's, I had a friend who was proud to be a descendant of the Black Donnelys, some of the most infamous rumrunners across the American border to our south in the 1920's. Sometimes people just love an entertaining bad guy if their crimes don't harm too many innocent bystanders.

[@idkwhatthisis5381]

I think a great example of an anti-villain is Suguru Geto from the jujutsu kaisen movie. He helps his followers with their troubles but in the end is using them to collect curses from them and kill all the non sorcerer humans. This fits either the well intentioned extremist as he is trying to make a world where sorcerers live without fighting to save regular people after witnessing the death of all his friends.

[@Crystals1297]

YES

[@rodrigoandorinha9259]

Yeah , but it would probably be better if he had more time to show us what he is willing are is not willing to do to achieve that goal We know he is willing to kill a student sorcerer to get a powerfull curse But would he try to kill someone he wants to protect if that person didn´t let him achieve hes goals?Like gojo or even shoko But its to late to get those questions

[@keithchristianmacaspac1149]

by his goal of collecting curses or money (evil purpose/intent) while helping his followers (good deed) he is an anti-villain but by his overall goal of sorcerers having a better life (good purpose/intent) by colllecting curses and killing all non-sorcerers (bad deed) then he is an anti-hero

[@atmostfeareric205]

L take. maybe the whole extermination bit is being over looked?

[@Muhsin-ox1vj]

Or someone like Magneto

[@biancap3305]

I’ve only found this channel until recently but I already love the production that goes into videos, plus the topics are always so interesting

[@LivingShdw]

There's another version of anti-villain that comes to mind for me. A character who commits good acts that intentionally result in something evil. Something like: Person fixes a road between two cities which results in better trade routes between them (and also diverts trade from the hero's city to weaken their fighting capacity). This creates a dilemma for the hero, because they can't really go after these people without coming off as a villain themselves. However, they are actively causing problems in the world that are side effects of otherwise good actions.

[@sarowie]

and you can deepen that when the villain offers to improve the road to the hero city, knowing full well that the economic effect for his conglomerate and political position situation benefits more from the transaction, then the hero city. But at some point you need to ask: Is it a villain or a misunderstanding? Antagonists are not villains. Having different goals that can be seen as good can make people political antagonist - that is literal politics - but showing the other political force as antagonist, let alone villain is wrong.

[@LivingShdw]

@@sarowie The Villain vs misunderstanding is part of the point of this. The villain is operating under some sort of plausible deniability. Since it's a story, you can clarify by writing about the motivations from the villain's point of view. Another good example that I had read a while ago. A "Hero" character defeats a dragon that was causing problems. However, in doing so that dragon happens to turn into a dracolich and starts poisoning the water supply being an even worse problem than before. In the case I'm thinking, it wasn't done on purpose. But if we were to want an anti-villain, the dracolich thing would have been intentionally planned.

[@nightshade4873]

​@@LivingShdwa third party on that last part would have to be involved, or atleast the hero would know of it, as a means to do the ol switcheroo of poisoning the well and having the cure which the hero would leverage to become a ruler, with the facade of a good person but has a hidden insane nature

[@LivingShdw]

@@nightshade4873 Yeah, if the "Hero" knew that defeating the dragon in a specific location/method would cause it to turn then it could be played in that direction. And, as you point out, it also creates a new problem for them to solve (and thus gain more notoriety).

[@raziel710]

@@LivingShdw I'm guessing the dragon thing is from anime Rising of the Shield Hero. The Sword Hero slays a dragon but doesn't dispose of its remains and it ends up becoming undead and creating a miasma that causes a plague in the surrounding villages. Honestly the Sword, Bow, and Spear heroes from that could all be another type of "anti-villain," I would call it the "villain by incompetence." An arch-type of a character that tries to be the hero but in the end they make everything worse due to their extreme negligence, incompetence, and/or ignorance.

[@partysnax1984]

Zuko is a good and bad example of a “villain we feel sorry for.” He starts out as a villain, but his character is a representation of growth, maturity, self reflection, chosen family vs. birth family, and how a person with a good heart can overcome all of their past wrongdoings. Book 1 Zuko is certainly a villain we feel sorry for, but we quickly learn that it is actually a setup to make us like him even more later for being able to see the light and truly change.

[@galacticlava1475]

True.

[@L3monJuice]

Beat me to it. but i agree 100% Zuko is one of my favorite characters in ATLA just for his representation of growth, i just love how hes written!

[@Nazuiko]

Thats more Heel-face turn than anti villain though. Zuko's villain motivation is to win Ozai's approval and, presumably, ensure his inheritance to the throne when Ozai passes or abdicates.

[@aquilliusranger2137]

@@NazuikoNo, he’s considered an anti-villain even in TVtrope, remember how he SAVED his own men that Iroh and him have recruited on their own ship? He *isn’t* as bad as you might think he is. Yes, he torched a village where Aang was held, stole an ostrich horse, and even betrayed Iroh and turned his back on the Gaang, and eventually conquered Ba Sing Se with his sister who turned him over back to his nation, even when he had a chance for redemption. Honestly? This only fueled his desire for something better, and betraying the compassionate Uncle Iroh and going back to his abusive father and manipulative sister just ISN’T and WILL NEVER be a good thing for an already developed Zuko, so no, he definitely fits a very flawed anti-villain, it’s still morally grey y’know.

[@aquilliusranger2137]

Zuko is one of my all time favorite anti-villain redeemed, which is weird how he’s sometimes behaves like Raphael from TMNT whenever he’s in the Gaang, I suppose habits die hard. You don’t want to lose your villainous edge until you realize you’ve lost your own goal and a will and passion to drive it. Now you just gotta find that fire in you again elsewhere.

[@tamasolah3877]

So technically almost all of Korra's antagonists are anti-villains. Most of them have good intentions, visions or goals (at first) however all of them turned to evil methods and in time all have lost sight of their original goals at least partially and have been succumbed to do purely evil things

[@markborsos646]

unlike a lot of people i really enjoyed TLoK, mainly because of the villains

[@tamasolah3877]

@@markborsos646 yes, unlike Ozai, who was inherently evil, a "born villain", the main antagonists of Korra are all complex, have secrets, hidden or long forgotten motives

[@kingofhearts3185]

That's probably the strongest aspecrt of the series, although season 2 is somewhat lacking with how overtly evil the villsin ended up being, losing most of his nuanced qualities (to me anyway).

[@tamasolah3877]

@@kingofhearts3185 absolutely. Even the series itself made fun of Unalaq :D Anyhow he was the weakest link, but the season made up for it in the double episode of looking back to the origins of the Avatar

[@FrostbiteDigital]

Too bad Amon's character was completely undermined when it was revealed he was a water bender...

[@Golferhittingwheelchairperson]

Billy Butcher from the Boys is an antihero 0:11 and Homelander tries to be an antivilian

[@acetofresh1]

Homelander was a villain that turned into a sympathetic villain, to possible anti villain while Butcher was an anti hero who becomes the villain

[@callmev3531]

Currently, Billy Butcher is more an anti-villain than anti-hero, while his counterparts are closer to regular heroes in how they represent more traditional heroic qualities of compassion, humility, honor and justice. He is against Homelander and other villainous supers that seek to install an oppressive regime, but he is also now a threat to not only villainous supers, but *all* supers. He has logic in his motives, but his methods exclusively demanding destruction, no subtly, no attempt exposing Vought even when they had the evidence to, this is what makes Billy a villain, the fact that he's in the wrong for how he's going about doing something that otherwise should be good.

[@benjaminjane93]

Best anti villain I’ve seen done is probably Mr.Freeze from 90’s Batman series. Some versions of Magneto also may apply here, the best written versions of Magneto really makes you understand his pov

[@Nami8302_OwO]

MR. Freeze is kind of a middle ground He does bad things for good reasons - Anti Hero But he VERY often gives into desperation and feigns good thing for the worst reasons - Anti Villain

[@benjaminjane93]

@@Nami8302_OwO those things should be flipped. An anti villain can be encapsulated by the statement “Don’t you understand? I’m doing this for the right reasons!” For Mr Freeze it comes back to doing evil things like stealing and killing to save his wife Nora. An anti hero comes down to doing the good thing not out of an expectation of doing the right thing, but because often an outside attachment forcing you to do the good thing that normally would be against your nature. Think Mad Max.

[@G.F.SF55]

This reminded me of the head of Ghost spiders from H×H, he's so calm and soft spoken, is always polite and gives genuine answers to an interested girl, he cares so deeply for his fellow spiders, mourns their deaths, yet still goes on committing genocide on an island just for the money and reputation and orchestrates massacres in one of the densest populated cities, and so, so much more

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

Chrollo? Yeah. He fits. Especially knowing his backstory.

[@bichiroloXP]

HxH is just full of anti-heroes and anti-villains.

[@Mooglatan]

"Ghost Spiders" bro read H+H

[@trajectoryunown]

​ @bichiroloXP Everybody looks at Gon like he's this bright-eyed, passionate, good-willed boy without realizing he's completely amoral in the grand scheme of things. He literally watched Killua rip someone's heart out of their chest with an honest to God smile on his face.

[@oneangryboi408]

@@trajectoryunown The thing with HxH is that its thematically about nature vs nuture. Gon was raised decently by his aunt and loved by everyone, but he shows a strange willingness just to destroy the entire world around him for the sake of his few friends. We're supposed to see him as a honest to goodness protagonist with a strict moral stance like every other generic shojun plot has. But no, we figure out much later. Killua, on the other hand, was raised and tortured by his own 'loving' family of dark hearted assassins, but he shows his affections towards people and forced himself out of that life he was built for. The story is gonna be sad if Killua and Gon end up having to fight each other at the end.

[@keesh2736]

The character of Bondrewd from Made in abyss is how he is evil and a horrible person yet also has a kind and loving personality throughout which just adds to how terrifying he really is

[@radikaldesignz]

It's more complex than that, imo, but you're right. There's a reason why "bondrewd did nothing wrong" is a sentence that exists. He's clearly an unfathomable monster. One with noble goals juxtaposed with irredeemable methods. And he's a bit of a paradox, genuinely loving and empathizing with those he sacrifices or makes use of. While the abyss itself is a uniquely cosmic horror setting, he is the perfect representation of a villain in line with that setting. Probably one the best written villains in all of fiction, tbh.

[@_TreeDragonFury_]

Very glad to See there are Made in Abyss fans in this comment section

[@soumyaranjankanr306]

​@@radikaldesignzyeah, man Bondrewd was really interesting. I was already intrigued from the opening of the show, while the show only showed his doings and effects, the movie did brought forth how he really was... really interesting. I wonder tho, is the second guy also an anti-villain?

[@8HaveSeen8]

What about "Stain" in (MHA)

[@The_Blazelighter]

The antagonists of made in abyss are special. None of them quite fall into any specific trope, as the abyss adds some sort of eldritch twist each time. First, there is Ozen. She plays the role of mentor, but her irredeemable personality and ill nature born of the abyss has her come across as a villain. Even after it is revealed she was testing them, she is still not a good person. It is only her ties to humanity through Marulk and Ozen that keep her from villainy. Then we meet the first truly evil villain, Bondrewd. And yet, he preaches of love and families formed by bonds. He is friendly to our protagonists, congratulating their accomplishments, marveling at their ingenuity. He has become another eldritch horror of the abyss, harboring no malice, but terrifying all the same. Faputa is driven to destroy by her very nature, to bring vengeance upon those who defiled her siblings and mother. At first, it reveals itself as unquenchable rage, causing her to harm both herself and even those she loves most. Once everything is stripped from her, and she inherits the memories of the villagers, her new perspective allows her to fulfill her duty out of love and respect, turning the antagonist who fought our heroes into a protagonist who joins them.

[@Blu_Jay_Wcue]

I love this, it reminds me of my own character that had a pretty traumatic backstory and does morally questionable things to survive but never steps past that. She hates heroes and blames them for her problems, yet hates villains and their unreasonable destruction. The lens perspective is so cool! One could look at my character strolling the street, happy with her partner, doing anything in her power to keep them safe and think; that's a hero. But when one looks deeper into backstory they can see a villain, an antivilliain or an antihero, it's so fascinating what perspective can do to a character

[@indiecrowarts]

I’m already two minutes in and I’ve subbed, the character design, the animation, the artistry in your teams demonstrations, the cadence in the voice actors performance- excellence, pure excellence. I can’t wait to add these videos to my storytelling repertoire

[@NeostormXLMAX]

They got 400,000 extra subs in a few months damn

[@ogot344]

Same

[@CartoonCrossovers]

same like- i didnt even get that far it and im already subbed as well. ive seen so many of their vids floating around that look interesting and really good :D

[@elementxxrider]

Anti-hero example: Stain (though it's a far fetch) Anti-villain example: Mr. Gentle

[@BradThunderCuck]

The second i saw the intro and how passionate the creator seems im all in

[@krusk3544]

Not nearly enough appreciation goes to Anti-villains. If you've seen enough spy thrillers, you'll be very familiar with the trope Like Michael Weston said: "Being a spy you have to get comfortable with people doing bad things for good reasons, doing good things for bad reasons."

[@IsaiahRichards692]

Honorable villain trope, e.g. Thanos!

[@KryyssTV]

Even then you rarely see anti-villians done to their extremes. A charqcter who seems to be a self-sacrificing hero until you realise what they want. Wilson "Kingpin" Fisk from Marvel nearly fits this trope as he presents himself as a philanthropist and upstanding citizen but maintains that front because it gives him lots of political and social influence which he uses to advance his own wealth. Megamind however is a prime example of a character who is an anti-villian for much of the movie. Due to him wanting to return to an exciting life of super villainy, after the apparent death of his heroic nemesis, he sets about a plan to create and train a new hero to be his new nemesis. Good methods, evil motives.

[@fist-of-doom487]

@@KryyssTVI feel like Dr. Doofenshmirtz is a great Anti-Villain because in spite of how nice and charming he still wants to conquer the Tri-State area, tries to kill large groups of people for petty reasons (and tried to blow up the sun that one time to help out an old friend)

[@V01DIORE]

Kira... ? Some people debate the morality even today no?

[@ggexgaming6020]

Makima is probably the best anti-villain in fiction

[@vortraz2054]

1:10 I can already see it. The most complex thing about these characters has to be, convincing your audience that their good deeds were genuine and not just tricks from a Villian.

[@DDdreamer90]

Bondrewd from Made in Abyss is a fantastic anti-villain. He's unfailingly polite and cheerful towards everyone no matter what, but has made a career out of nightmarish scientific research built on the pain, suffering and death of countless people. Even so, his research is immensely beneficial to the world as a whole, and he feels nothing but love and admiration towards those he's sacrificed in his pursuits.

[@CiciChess]

light from death note

[@ajente2o254]

​@@CiciChessNah, he is just crazy

[@CiciChess]

@@ajente2o254 my point is the methods he uses seem like he is doing good but he is evil.

[@ajente2o254]

@@CiciChess Oh yeah, good point

[@AngryCoward]

Yes. And I really like the fact that he's sacrificed even his very original self for his own purpose. He's so determined and consistent.

[@Sovreign071]

In regards to how perspective changes Anti-Heroes to Anti-Villains, and vice versa, the difference between the Harry Potter books AND the movies is a good example. There are plenty of people who have only seen the films, where a lot of Snape's crueler tendencies were omitted. Threatening AND attempting to poison Nevil's toad, allowing Malfoy to injure Hermione with a tooth-growing spell without repurcussions AND mocking her. And one really big detail, he tried to convince Voldemort to spare Lily. Not Harry. Not James. Lily. He was fully willing to let two innocent people die for his own selfish happiness. The films omit all of this, and when you combine that with Alan Rickman's charm, he comes across as a lot more heroic.

[@acecashman1237]

yeah, Snape only turned on Voldemort because he betrayed his trust in not killing Lily. If not for that, he'd still be a full on villain. Once Harry then became the only piece of Lily Snape had left, he became concerned for Harry's safety, but still would shit on him because he was also a part of James.

[@SOM3BOZO]

Oh, and let's not forget about how he outed Lupin as a werewolf in retaliation to not getting to hand Sirius over to the dementors, even after learning about his innocence. I'd say Snape is still a good example of an anti-villain because he's a terrible person who teams up with the good guys not out of any growth, change or conscience, but a personal grudge against the dark lord.

[@vulcanhumor]

I'd say at least 85% of what makes movie!Snape likeable is Alan Rickman, the rest is the writing and the various omissions from the books. Book!Snape is honestly pretty awful, even after the twist is revealed. Snape and Lily's friendship wasn't all that healthy even when they were in school, and as far as I remember he never even expressed genuine remorse for using the word "mudblood" or for joining the Death Eaters. His own choices drove her away, but he never owned up to that and just resented James for "taking her away from him." Like you pointed out, book!Snape only begs for Lily's life to be spared, not caring at all about the family she loved and that made her happy, something that causes Dumbledore...a character who's done some very questionable and self-serving things himself...to straight up say "You disgust me." During the "Always" scene, when Dumbledore suggests that Snape has grown to care for Harry, book!Snape vehemently DENIES it before he casts his patronus and reveals that it's the same as Lily's. He never grew or learned from what he had done, never tried to actually atone or become a better person...he just wanted to do something in the name of unrequited love for a dead woman. But even then, that one seemingly redeeming quality isn't all that redeeming. He didn't really love Lily. He was just obsessed with her. She was kind to him, and he wanted to possess her. That isn't genuine love. If he HAD grown to actually care for her son, or had recognized what a jerkass he'd been, or renounced some of his beliefs, then maybe book!Snape would have been a grayer, more anti-heroic character. But he didn't. He was pretty much a spiteful incel who was only begrudgingly on the side of good.

[@SeanWilliamGeorgeBuc]

So what you're saying is the author wrote a poor character and then the movies improved the characterization? I think that an important part of book and movie adaptation that gets lost: book is NOT always better. The details you included about Snape's cruelness illustrate this. Those are details written into a book to show how "mean" a character is. The movie's present a much more nuance picture that is genuinely compelling l.

[@MaleusMaleficarum]

​@SeanWilliamGeorgeBuc the author wrote a character... who served hos role. There was no need for character growth. That does not make him a poor character... not everyone has to change in order to be compelling

[@YodaOnABender]

Gus Fring is probably the closest thing I can think of as an example of this archetype. He’s pretty evil but he also donates to an orphanage and takes care of his legitimate business’ employees

[@cajunguy6502]

Dr. doofenshmirtz, that's who came to mind for me.

[@CastleMiser]

How about Johan Liebert or Yoshikage Kira?

[@No.1RatedSalesman]

There's also "Queen" from delatrune, also known by her true name "Q5U4EX7YY2E9N" She is by all means an evil tyrant, capturing people, planning world domination, plans on turning someone's face into a robot one But it's all stemmed from her wanting everyone to be happy "Kris, I just want everyone to be happy" And if I have to become an evil villan to accomplish that, is that" "Bad?" Everything she does despite it being wrong is all for the sake of making people happy, like playing video games with the fun gang, goofing around with them, even opening fountains and causing the end of the world was done purely out of ignorance and the urge to bring joy despite her ignorance Potassium

[@YodaOnABender]

@@CastleMiser literally never heard of either

[@gjmguy7994]

He’s also playing into his community loving philanthropic chicken man façade as he hides right under the DEA’s nose.

[@CobaltianEmpire]

so as a newbie indie game dev making my first proper game I found a new interest in videos like these looking for inspirations to draw from and such, but this video gave the spark that kinda set the foundation for a whole story not just my big bad guy or whatever, so thank you, definitely earned my subscribe and ima check out the rest of this channel for sure

[@jessecrafts2630]

I looked up what Anti-Villains are used for and it said Anti-Heroes are to make a character complex while Anti-Villains are meant to make people question their morality. Like if a Robin Hood story was from the perspective of a knight Robin Hood would technically be an Anti-Villain, he's breaking the laws and is not above killing but he has a code and gives to the poor of a corrupt system so it would make the Knight and possibly the reader question on if they're really doing the right thing

[@retsopmisv]

good

[@KopperNeoman]

Not true. A real knight would be a Merry Man, because Robin Hood never actually stole. It was the usurpers Prince John and Sheriff Nottingham who were stealing. Robin Hood and his Merry Men were just acting on King Richard's behalf by seizing the stolen goods and returning them to their owners.

[@albino478gaming5]

A dynamic i want to see more often are Noble Anti-villain with a line he refuses to cross and an Anti-hero who is willing to cross any line to schieve his goals. The villain retaining his Humanity while the hero tosses it away

[@MasterMask14]

Tales of Berseria almost has this setup. You play an anti hero and the antagonist is an anti villain from what I remember.

[@MunchDDonut]

Gon and Pitou

[@Gage-bk7cn]

Anderson and Alucard from hellsing

[@NendoDeluxe]

Metal gear

[@Adonis-m9b]

Wamu

[@honeyjuice219]

when they mention the idea of a anti villain, I immediately think of dr. doofenshmirtz. he's a person with evil goals but he's actually a pretty nice guy who loves his daughter and actually cares about parry the platypus even though parry always screws his plans.

[@devinn5493]

WTF WHY IS THE INTRO ANIMATION SO GOOD!?!?

[@joseph-fernando-piano]

I think one of the best examples of a true anti-villain would be Uncle Iroh from Season 1 of ATLA, despite being one of the wisest and most beloved characters probably in all of television, in that first season he's still working with the Fire Nation to try and capture the heroes, track down anyone who's helped them, and lay siege to the Northern Water Tribe in the last few episodes...

[@dataexpunged4784]

Not to mention his own past as a ruthless up-and-coming Fire Lord who almost successfully took over Ba Sing Se, and would've continued the dark conquest of the Fire Nation had his son not died. In a way, as horrible as it is to say, the death of Iroh's son was probably the best outcome for the Avatar world, as it delayed the Fire Nation's ambitions enough for the Avatar to reawaken in time to stop them, and it made Iroh reevaluate his life and set out on the journey that would ultimately lead to his redemption and allow him to become the best version of himself.

[@aquilliusranger2137]

@@dataexpunged4784Tragedy springs change, that’s why winter must always come before spring. You must face difficult moments before you finally learn to let it go for others to rise up with your guidance or not, don’t just be like the bigger tree that sits in one spot, be the sun that guides everybody, even when you’re the lonely one suffering quietly. 😢

[@fatdinosaurfood8059]

Technically he only throws one attack at Aang throughout the whole show

[@hoborg98]

I think Giovanni Potash from Epithet Erased (KZbin series) would count as the "noble anti-villain". He's an aspiring, if bumbling, criminal who aspires to be a super villain, but he's fiercely protective of his minions and has a great moment where he helps another character work on her self-confidence issues (so she can be a better minion for him).

[@LoverOfStuff]

Giovanni is just a silly guy who wants to prove that he can be something. If it involves joining a villain-based pyramid scheme, he’s gonna do it! And gosh dangit; he’ll treat everyone with the kindness they deserve while he’s at it

[@liawatson5789]

Deluded Anti-Villain

[@codebracker]

He is clearly just an antihero tho, while things he does are illegal he always does them with good goals in mind

[@sukaisage]

giovanni is an anti-hero. spoilers from anime campaign below! NAVEN NUKNUK NAVEN NUKNUK HE IS LITERALLY THE TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE OF THIS IDEA HE'S NOT EVEN LIKE, HIDING AN EVIL MOTIVE! HE'S A GOOD PERSON! TRYING TO DO SOMETHING GOOD! IT'S NOT AN ACT! BUT STILL THE MAIN ANTAGONIST BECAUSE HE IS TOO RADICAL!!!

[@hoborg98]

I wouldn't call "becoming the world's greatest super-villain" a good goal, but whatever.@@codebracker​

[@GMsGarage]

Honestly, the one that comes to mind for me here is Dexter. He's likeable in that he has a "degree of relatability" to him. He cares deeply for his sister, and those close to him (granted in his own way). He has a strict morale code that he adheres to that makes it easier for you to get on his side in the show. But at the end of the day he is a serial killer who is doing it to satisfy his dark passenger. He is a cold-blooded killer.

[@RockinRocketScience]

Huh? There's no way a kid's show has a boy literally kill people as the protagonist.

[@feelfreetoscreenshot715]

he means Dexter from the 2006 crime drama “ Dexter”, not the cartoon

[@IAmGun.]

@@feelfreetoscreenshot715 I refuse to think of this as anything but Dexter's Laboratory.

[@Andre-vt4np]

Dexter's laboratory?

[@Deadbeatcow]

I thought you meant the serial killer TV show and then Dexters laboratory and THEN back to the show 😂

[@MazlumÖzer-i5s]

I have a character nicknamed Regular. He's one of the normal people in a world of super abilities, but what sets him apart from other people is his way of thinking. He has a way of thinking that can understand whether someone's actions will serve evil (for example, Sherlock Holmes does not know that the earth revolves around the sun, but he is good at finding criminals, this is thanks to his way of thinking). Since he can only sense evil from people, he has never believed in goodness and has harmed his environment since his childhood by committing simple crimes such as wasting water/leaving batteries to nature/hiding signs/encouraging theft/smoking near someone with asthma. Phantom, one of the main characters and the leader of an organization like the Justice League of the universe, is a medium who can see the spirits and the intentions of the spirits. The Phantom is the only person who can see the body of evil within the Regular, and it is impossible to count his actions as a crime even if it is proven. Therefore there is a cold war of sorts between Phantom and Regular

[@Pizzapieeye]

This channel has inspired me to start learning more. I used to not enjoy learning as much but it’s actually great finding knowledge on your own and just absorbing great stories.

[@IdentifiantE.S]

You’re not the only one its so interesting !

[@Twiddle_things]

Learning is amazing! It's just that school does it in a poor way. So poor to the point where you hate it, or think you do. I was shocked when I realised that I LOVE to learn and study!

[@lemonace6695]

I think Luke Castellan from Percy Jackson fits this trope very well. He has an altruistic objective to ensure a better future to half-blood kids by making sure they stop being the god's playthings and that their god parent is actually there but both his goals (defeat the gods with Kronos and bringing the second titan era) and his methods (sacrificing and manipulating other half-blood, most that are kids) are evil.

[@It_Is_Oylenox]

Isn’t that an anti hero?

[@lemonace6695]

@@It_Is_Oylenox no because the end goal is objectvally bad as well as the means, he has good intentions but that's it.

[@joeligma4721]

thats an antihero, someone with a good cause and does bad things to get it an anti-villain is the opposite, they dont act evil but their ultimate goal is still evil

[@TherandomshitstormerCXVII]

@@joeligma4721he’s an anti villain, his end goal is to cause the second titan era by starting ww3 between the gods with the help of Kronos and manipulating the halfbloods, his intention is to save the half bloods, but it’ll doom humanity to endless squalor and suffering bc in the era of the olympians humanity was able to progress and better itself, that won’t happen in the second titan era nor the first, it’s only good for the half bloods bc they’re just better than the other humans

[@DigitalTheAlchemist]

Dr Maruki from Persona 5 Royale is a good example. His goal of taking away free will from people makes him evil, but his reason behind it is to make a perfect world where everyone is happy. The player even gets to see the phantom thieves and other npcs as happy as they ever will be. When told the truth, they realize that having no free will is not how they want to live, and go to fight Dr Maruki

[@dellbrrokvince3700]

Exactly what I was going to say, the literal definition of anti-villain

[@evilevilcritter]

blud thinks he's YHVH😭😭😭

[@b1tchb4by3]

He also works as a twist villain too. He wants to help out everyone, and he seemed so unassuming at first, but makes perfect sense. He is also a traveler of the meta verse like Akechi. On the topic of anti-villain, he had someone he loved torn by a traumatic experience, and so he erased her memories, wiping the memories spent with him in the process. Normally, people would be shocked or ashamed, but he had strength. He had the mental strength to go “If that’s how I can fix people, then so be it.” He was completely willing to let himself be erased for the betterment of society, but his actions were wrong. If only he used the powers he had for good… and not the “feel good” crap he gives everyone.

[@tobias5968]

Exactly what I came to comment. I actually struggled to accept the true ending because I totally saw where he was coming from.

[@CelestiaLily]

Rank 4: "On my way to school this morning, I spotted a kitten that had gotten itself stuck up in a tree. I tried rescuing it since I felt bad for it, but I ended up with the clawing of a lifetime for the effort. I had no idea a cat's claws were so sharp... But I was able to rescue the kitten, so all's well that ends well." In almost _any_ other antagonist this kind of cheesy "save the cat" anecdote would be remarkably eye-rolling and stretching believability. But for P5R, looking back on that moment like "oh........ we're like that cat aren't we 🥲" was the perfect way to contextualize the conflict at play here. Someone with enough compassionate drive to go out of their way for everyone else's benefit...... but also enough ideological hangups that no matter the safety awaiting us, we'd end up clawing our way out anyway >:3€

[@sirnilsolav6646]

I disagree that the goal is what differantiates the anti-hero and anti-villain. An anti-villain mostly wants something good. To the anti-villain, they themselves are the hero. Ozymandias wants to prevent nuclear war, Thanos wants to prevent exctinction etc. What makes an anti-villain into an anti-villain is that they fit the saying ‘the road to hell is paved with good intentions’. Their intentions are good, but through their methods they do villainous deeds which go too far. The anti-hero on the other hand usually has selfish intentions. Their methods can be brutal too but the anti-hero’s opponent is the villain and by stopping the villain they do something heroic. Catwoman’s goals are ultimately selfish. She wants riches, money and pleasure. However, in the persuit of these things she ends up fighting badguys like Penguin, Harvey Dent, Joker etc. and she ends up teaming up with the hero, Batman. The anti-hero can find themselves on both sides of hero and villain. Catwoman could easily be the villain that Batman needs to take down, but since she is not as evil as the other villains and these villains come in her way, she finds herself on both sides of good and evil. The anti-villain does not do this. The anti-villain does not join sides with the hero on occasion, like the anti-hero does. This is because the anti-villain serves the role of the antagonist and villain. If they joined the hero they wouldnt be a villain. Even if they were to join the hero for a short while it would be functionally the same as if the villain did so, like Team Rocket sometimes helping Ash. So the anti-hero becomes a hero by their opposition to the villain, while the anti-villain becomes a villain through their methods either going too far or having unintended bad consequences.

[@dannochoa2]

Dann, I forgot Ozymandias being the best example of a anti villain. They have good intentions, but they will do everything that is necessary to accomplish that goal. Even though if they have to do bad things. Once Lex Luthor was a good example, too. His purpose was to demonstrate that Superman is dangerous because all what he is capable of and if he (Superman) uses that against humanity we are doomed. All he wanted is that people stopped relying on him and better trust on what humanity can do with science and technology. That's why he always test Superman morality. But all that was thrown into the trash when they changed that argument to a Lex Luthor who is jealous because Superman is more popular than him.

[@SpoonAtNoon]

I do remember one time Thanos helped a old lady cross the street, he delayed a bus, this caused a chain of events that WOULD have happened to not happen instead. A girl named Stephanie's life would have changed the entire world with making true equality, world peace, and curing all diseases, and eventually, she would have saved the entire universe by doing so, making the whole universe a wonderful place to live in, all because she would have met another girl that would have encouraged her to help make the world a better place. Ofc, this all did not happen because the bus was delayed thanks to Thanos helping an old lady cross the street.(At the end Thanos showed her what her life would have been like on her death bed, she died with a horrible realization, that he stole her life, and everyone elses as well) I feel like this is a perfect example of a villian who does good things for bad reasons.

[@sephikong8323]

I completely forgot about that one lmao This issue made Reverse Flash look not so petty in comparison to Thanos, the fact he just went to show her what her life could have been was just unnecessarily petty and for no god damn reason

[@veriser6175]

Comic thanos was almost as petty as reverse flash compared to the MCU version they are like 2 diffirent charracters

[@joseruizdiaz9622]

Oh man, that sounds so awful...from the girl that is. It's not like Thanos caused continuous roadblock for her for years, yes? She had the potential of literally improving the whole universe, but never did because she never thought about it? And she even feels sad from knowing what could've been. What's she sad about exactly? Is it really the fact Thanos made such an insignificant change to "ruin" her life? Or is it because she was as stupid as to actually never try to do anything good because of said insignificant change? If not the universe, she had at least the power of improving her personal environment. Thanos didn't steal shit from anyone; sorry, but that's a stupid way to handle alternate timelines.

[@Zulk_RS]

@@joseruizdiaz9622 Your comment makes me think about something I once heard about the Trolley Problem. Basically it was that the problem with the Trolley Problem is that it assumes we know the outcomes. If you pull the lever, only one person gets run over. If you don't pull the lever, 5 people get run over. However, you can't really know things like that in the real world. What if instead of running over 5 people, the trolley hits the brakes and harms no one? What if after running over the one person, the driver gets out and shoots the other 5 guys? What if because you pulled the lever and had 1 person get run over, they were unable to get to their job at the nuclear power plant and caused Chernobyl 2.0? The point, I think, was that in a more practical sense, you can't really know the full outcome of your actions. You can only do what seems like the right choice based on information you have available. You save a person by grabbing them right before they could walk forward and get run over by an oncoming truck. This is the right thing to do (if you are able). If that person then goes on to become a serial killer with a body count of 100, your choice to save them doesn't automatically become the "Wrong" or "Bad" or "Immoral" choice because you didn't know they would become a serial killer. As for the Thanos example being a stupid way to handle yeah. I mean I think the reason Thanos is a bad guy here is because he delayed the bus KNOWING that it would "Rob" the universe of its future savior and rob the girl of her greater life and then he gloated it over the girl on her deathbed for no reason? But if that's the case... this raises a lot of questions that I don't think have a good answer other than "Plot Hole". If delaying the bus caused a chain reaction that led the girl to not have the greater life, then what exactly is the nature of Free Will here? If it is all predestined, then wasn't Thanos always supposed to delay the bus? If it wasn't predestined and each decision caused a different outcome, then doesn't Thanos's action just not do anything in the grand scheme of things? Like wouldn't there always be a universe where the bus got delayed? And if it is more like "This one action pivoted everything" then wouldn't every action have wide reaching consequence on every other universe? I don't think there's a proper, satisfying answer to this. And if decisions do matter, why is the girl sad? In the end, forces beyond her control dealt her a hand and her decisions took it form there. Yeah you're right, this is not a good way to handle multiple universes.

[@EpsilonRosePersonal]

@@veriser6175 They are two completely different characters, with fundamentally different motives and end goals. The only similarities are their titles and their fondness for the infinity stones.

[@LilithLonelyHeart]

Interestingly enough there is a very specific trope that would consistently fall into the anti-villain category, the "Magnificent Bastard", would be lovely to see your take on this specific trope

[@danielemms2704]

I feel like Talebot should make an episode based on the nature of Corvids (as in crows, ravens, and magpies.) in fantasy. Especially since in the real world they can talk like parrots, and are more than likely to band together to attack anyone who dares to harm a member of their murder.

[@kingofhearts3185]

There are some interesting videos on their abilities to solve puzzles, create tools, understand mirrors, and long term thinking that place them on par with 8 year olds.

[@juanmanuelpenaloza9264]

"Nevermore!"

[@JoeMama-me5wp]

I can see a "anti-villan" in the form of city wide parasite that give a lot of benifits but their goal is to cunsume the whole city using the people that it gave benifits to while making everyones lives better weirdly in the proces

[@BlackGuard-l7d]

You've heard of "anti-hero", now its time for "anti-villain"...

[@fire_ii9550]

and now anti-plot

[@supremeking2020]

​@fire_ii9550 we have that already, it's called bad writing

[@AjenjoAnejo]

​@@supremeking2020We have it in spades sadly.

[@IdentifiantE.S]

@@supremeking2020Right 💀

[@th3_r0ckstar_f0x4]

Among us

[@KiernanFay]

the "I won't let anyone rule the world but me" mentality really tends to blur the lines between anti/villain, then you also have the whole 'survivor who has to kill everyone to make it out' trope which blurs anti(hero/villain) in a veil of neutrality. I think my favorite antivillain would be Dr Doom, because the one time he actually takes over the world, he turns it into a utopia.

[@MIXTAPES333]

Yea I mean magneto can you not feel bad for him having to watch his dad get shot, having to kill his kids, best comrades leaving him, governments being racist to him, I mean the f4 literally left dr doom to die

[@bob7975]

He is a genuinely beloved and benevolent leader in his own country. One of the reasons the Fantastic Four are reluctant to assault him in his lair is the certainty of having to fight their way through rosy-cheeked children and grandmas in babushkas.

[@Briselance]

"I won't let anyone rule the world but me"? Eh, just sounds like some excuses for dictatorship.

[@Briselance]

"Survivor who has to kill everyone to make it out"? How is that anything else than villain?

[@Briselance]

He turns it into a utopia, yeah. That's how some cults and sects act.😅

[@Davidthegreat93]

I personally think that 343 Guilty Spark from HALO is one of the best anti-villains in media, he's so polite and even genuinely believes that he's on the side of our protagonists, he just doesn't understand why it is that the protagonists like the post-schism Elites and Humans want to live instead of follow the protocol for destroying the Flood set by the Forerunners that made him. Despite the name of the level making you think so, he isn't even really "betraying" Master Chief and Cortana by trying to kill everyone in the beginning of "Two Betrayals", he thought that's what everyone else wanted as well. "Protocol dictates action" means that he helps the protagonist "every step of the way" up until the very moment that the protagonist does something against protocol which means a swift laser to the chest and a "gun pointed at the head of the universe".

[@MORILLA_monkey]

I love how it showed zuko from atla when they are talking about woobie villains😂

[@dracone4370]

David Xanatos from Gargoyles is a Magnificent Bastard, a character you know to be a jerk but still can't help liking because of how charismatic he is. Still, for most of the series run, he's also a Noble Antivillain; he actually won't allow people to die; it's because he likes to pit his considerable intellect against others. He doesn't want the game to be ruined by a player being lost through that sort of means, but he has the very selfish goal of achieving immortality for himself (and later his wife as well) because he wants to stay in the game and do more with his wealth.

[@brodericksiz625]

Xanatos is one of the most enjoyable villains ever. Gargoyles was such a good show, it's criminal that we never got to see the ending that the authors intended in animation.

[@lifeiaskedfor]

i think the game "Tales of Berseria" is a perfect example of anti-hero vs anti-villain. Velvet wanting revenge/take down to the Artrorius, while she seems kind of like a bad guy at first and even does alot of bad things to get what she wants, she still goes out her way to help people around here showing while she acts like she doesn't care she really does. On the surface Artrorius does good deeds and helps plenty of people all around, but the reality of it is his goal is to mind control and take away everyone of their own free will. While velvet's motives seem evil and selfish she later realizes she needs to stop him cause what he's wanting to do is wrong and realizes the people he's follow have been corrupted into believing that Artorius is saving them

[@eminemfan50098]

Holy shit the timing, I literally just started that a few days ago

[@Chudpope]

Not that Velvet sees herself as the hero. Most of the game, she didn't think herself the hero for going against Artorius. She just thought her revenge was worth it even if it made her a villain too.

[@Yothlan]

I believe that the *hardest thing is to write an interesting regular villain* (bad goals and bad methods). In the novel East of Eden (J. Steinbeck), the character of Cathy/Kate is a masterpiece example of a character of pure evil which retains a lot of depth.

[@DarthRadical]

The Joker (not counting the titular movie) is a pretty good example of a great pure villain.

[@austinreed7343]

Which is why regular villains tend to prevail more in audiovisual media.

[@falinestixiaolong9691]

Handsome Jack from Borderlands is also a wonderful example of a straight-up pure evil villain.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Thing is, evil doesn't have depth. All it cares about is itself. It isn't hard to write a narcissist, it's just hard to write a narcissist that people actually want in a story; there's a point when even rooting AGAINST the villain isn't enough to justify the negative feelings that arise from them being in the story.

[@pendotxl822]

Its actually pretty "easy" to make an interesting regular evil villain, you just need to make him charismatic.

[@TerraKing]

I adore your channel. Your channel is informative to what I’m creating currently. I’m writing a fantasy novel and with this knowledge, I’ve created a gritty anti-villain antagonist based on his religious group’s intentions and backstory, which the main protagonist also focuses on. The main premise is throughout this saga of around 4-5 novels of the protagonist against another religious group. Both people who follow these religions are competing for each other in a crusader style manner because of their gods having a quarrel thousands of years ago, and still occurs to the very time of day the novel takes place. I have this titled as “Nova Chronicles” for now.

[@karky3755]

One of the best anti-vilain I've ever seen is Silco from Arcane. The guy makes some horrible things like killing people and controlling all of the criminality from Zaun. But also he hasn't a bad purpose because all he wants is the liberty for the residents of his city. And more of that, he truly loves his adoptive daughter Jinx for which he was ready to give up everything rather than abandon her. All illustrated by his last words : I never would have given you to them, not for anything

[@CastleMiser]

I guess a similar villain would be Enrico Pucci or Funny Valentine. Enrico made a fatal mistake of indirectly killing a person he loved and met the wrong person, which influenced him to "achieve Heaven" which would kill many in the process all so that they can forsee fate. Valentine is a US president who wants his country to prosper with the use of the corpse of a dead saint. He is arguably an antagonist instead of a villain as his goals are way more noble than the protagonist (protag want leg move)

[@danielnidhiry5796]

@@CastleMiser what bout the time fv almost become edp

[@mime514]

Was about to comment the same thing :0

[@poprocket2342]

Comparing anti heroes and anti villains is another way of looking at the old saying "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter"

[@alexegbert7274]

I think a good example of an Anti Villain is Kars from Jojo's pt 2. He is a pillar man who wants to become the ultimate lifeform in order to shed his weakness to sunlight and rule over the world. His Antivillainy comes out in how he treats animals and most interestingly his subordinate. When we introduced to Kars, Wham is kneeling down, waiting for instruction, and when Kars walks past, he sets foot in Wham's shadow, and Wham reflexively kicks him in the face, then resumes kneeling and waits to accept punishment, and fascinatingly, Kars just laughs this off, saying he should've remembered this particular quirk of Wham's, letting him off the hook.

[@PlayBoiKami]

A better example from jojo would definitely be either Pucci or Valentine

[@danielcristianescobar8157]

Wamuu i think is better example than Kars. As he is very noble

[@helpmeplx1739]

​@@PlayBoiKami most definitely valentine

[@McCaddarn]

@@helpmeplx1739 really? With the crimes he committed? Poor Lucy 😭😭

[@purplelionpoliticsandhisto5025]

Incorrect, he just has some good moments- but that doesn't make him an anti-villain, there's no good motivation, method, or goal, or even overall personality, at least ONE thing has to be good, as other stated- Wammu, Pucci, and Valentine would be proper and legitimate examples of excellently written anti-villains.

[@Lionsnap1]

I find it interesting that as stories have evolved there is actually quite alot of anti heroes, anti villains possibly more then just hero's or villains

[@zerofreakshow7612]

In my opinion, Issac from Castlevania can be considered an anti-villian. He was polite and gave people a chance to leave him alone. When they continued to challenge him or refused to let him pass through the city, he would kill them or reanimate them as monsters. His goals did change later.

[@biswajitnath804]

My thoughts exactly.... What's your thoughts about Father Anderson from Hellsing ultimate.?

[@narusoegaming3619]

I think pucci is a really good example here. He strives to reset the universe to make a new one and everyone in that universe would be able to see their whole future. But not only did he kill multiple people to get here, He killed countless people in the universe reset and intentionally tried to killed Jolyne and her crew.

[@runningoncylinders3829]

He established his goal as his idea of heaven, but it didn’t make much sense to me and probably many others. Foresight is the one factor that makes destinies feel more hopeless compared to the choices in the moment way of living. I’m sure poking his brain would do a number, yet sometimes something simpler like a world of only prosperity and no strife, putting him closer to Thanos, makes him seem less bonkers.

[@MagicCardboardBox]

Nah, doing evil for the right reasons is antihero, imo...but there is a lot of crossover

[@AGuyYouMostLikelyDontKnow]

I have to say Wakfu has an amazing antivillain. Nox's whole story is so good and tragic, but what he does makes so much sense. At the end of the day if he succeds, nothing will matter and then he would've gotten what he wanted. His family back. So technically everything he does is justified if he makes it. I'm being vague not to spoil anything if anyone might be interested in Wakfu. It's a great show and I recomend everyone gives it a watch.

[@nikosaurus4238]

You could say the same for Quilby and Oropo too.

[@madeleinedartois4689]

Not for Quilby. If he succeeds, good for him and the Eliatropes, but all of the World of Twelve will be annihilated and nothing will change that. Unlike Nox, who tries to rewind time.

[@autumnson]

Nox might well be my favorite "vilain" in all of fiction. Just a man dealing with his grief (in obviously wrong yet deeply understandable ways). And the Ghibli animated backstory, chef kiss.

[@shiugycaldwiff6643]

I'm glad that i didn't had to search for long to find a comment about Nox.

[@nikosaurus4238]

@@madeleinedartois4689 But his backstory is tragic enough that it makes you symphatise with him and understand his descision to do so. Imagine knowing everything there is to know, having done everything there is to do and essentially living through the same things for an eternity while slowly the people closest to you stop reckognising you therefore leading to further isolation and depression. Thats essentially what Quilbys life was before the events of the show so I understand why he didnt want to live through that again.

[@windtiger004]

How i imagine it, if you know the alignment chart : You divide each corners in triangles, you have the Hero standing in the lawful good corner, the villain on the opposite side. The Anti-hero stands in the Chaotic good and anti-villain on the opposite. The middle area would be the NPC/bystander area.

[@cristichifan4453]

So happy to see this subject brought to light! I felt like no one ever was mentioning it and I started to believe that I made up the trope even if it was so clear to me that it existed for as long as I can remember

[@AstroAngelofficial1424]

I love how (as a writer myself) right when I have been questioning what makes a villian a villian this video comes out, lots of help btw so thankful for this channel😊

[@michaelgum97]

8:35 One example that came to mind is Shelly de Killer, from the Ace Attorney series. He's a professional assassin who'll always make sure that the target is dead, along with making sure that his client is safe. But if you betray him, then you’re the next target.

[@sharkwaffle1582]

Shelly de Killer has got to be one of the best characters in the series because, sure, he's definitely not a hero, but he's just so darn polite about it. The epitome of "You are bad guy, but you are not bad guy." more detailed spoilers: We see the best of de Killer in AAI2, where he's not actually the one responsible, but instead an involved third party who actively helps Edgeworth throughout the game; most notably threatening a guard's life to ensure that Edgeworth is allowed to investigate a crime scene, and then goes off on his merry way once he learns what he needed to. Later on, he has a chat with Edgeworth one-on-one and gives *him* information about what he knows.

[@Mirkriov]

i just realised that griffith being an anti-villain and guts being an anti-hero is probably the reason why berserk is such a fascinating and complex story.

[@aidanmortimer7288]

I've never known what an anti-villain was until now, and it's almost scary how easily it is to change from an anti-hero to anti-villain just from a different perspective. Also thank you for this video because I never thought of Thanos as an anti-villain.

[@TheAniSi]

The perspective between anti hero and anti villain is fascinating. Miguel O’hara from across the Spiderverse is a great example. He has an altruistic goal but is willing to let people die to full-fill it. In some ways he’s actually doing what Thanos is on a much smaller scale.

[@teetotee]

You think Miguel O' Hara's an anti villain? Edit: yeah that makes sense, I'm still a few minutes into the video so the terminologies are still swimming around in my head

[@Daniel_Zhu_a6f]

can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. historically, any noticeable political change, good or bad, required many people to die. social "evolution" seems to mostly be a school-level textbook myth. this makes anti-heroes and anti-villains so much more believable, than their "traditional" counterparts

[@flamesofchaos13]

You got it...Miguel O'Hara was an Anti-Hero (that is literally his default Canon) that transitioned into an Anti-Villain by the end. His pov on what it takes to be Spider-Man and complete irrational hostility towards a 15 year old child claiming they shouldn't even exist is crossing lines that no hero would. Meanwhile Miles who's default Canon was Pure Hero has fallen to the ranks of Anti-Hero. Because even if he's proven right he's still Selfish and willing to risk the destruction of the entire Multiverse...But he ultimately just wants to save his father and has reasons to believe the narrative is flawed. While the Alternate Miles is something altogether different a pure Vigilante...That could literally be any shade of grey one could think of. He's most likely an Anti-Hero. Gwen started as neutral a Failed Hero then transitioned to Pure Hero by the end...But the nuance is she's motivated purely or mostly by Love for Miles (Selfish Desire). They're all some kind of grey...Which is how they subverted everything someone came to suspect from a Spider-Man storyline that usually depicts them as Pure Heroes. Everyone loves it too it makes them more compelling and realistic (even though everything is getting meta). Narratively proving Miles right...Nah Imma do my own thing.

[@hamster2510]

Same with Ra's Al Ghul from Batman comics, games and films. He wants world peace, but his methods are bad (killing people to make survivors survive as peaceful towards each other community).

[@flamesofchaos13]

@@Michael-bn1oi Incorrect. Very incorrect...You haven't looked up the facts nor payed any attention to the film itself. He's Morally Grey and Logical he's the "Hero" of that world. The Prowler is NOT Evil...There's two fan favorites already in play that are Prowler's themselves (not talking about the Miguel theory). You can look up the lore or you can wait until Beyond the Spider-Verse (Spider-Man) where it'll be directly showcased. Darkness isn't Evil. There's a distinct difference.

[@MrSleepparalysisman]

I do not believe that take foundry can make such good videos in less than a week

[@safyullahjawid8592]

Must be the Genius of the Tale-Bot

[@r4nd0mguy99]

On a different note...What the fuck is up with KZbin right now? I tried to target a comment above, but my answer always ended up below your comment. Reloading the page helped, but still...

[@MrSleepparalysisman]

@@r4nd0mguy99 yeah I don’t know what the fuck is happening

[@Theguy-l2b]

I have a character who’s a villain but all he wants is a world where everyone is happy. But he does that by killing the people who are sad depressed and haven’t appreciated all the happy things that are in there life. What type of villain would that be?

[@OriginalCharacterOc]

Villain.

[@paparobinsbizmrblack2903]

Probably A Well intentioned Extremist

[@d1noc]

Madara Uchiha

[@oZhev]

amon was a great character. it is too bad he was only given one season. i felt like i could relate to this guy in every perspective he was given.

[@RaraZeCat]

Honestly the equalists should have been a lingering threat that appeared a cross all seasons

[@kr4547]

​@@RaraZeCatyeah it would be kind of nice if after effects of it were still shown. But I guess anyone involved just dipped out once they realized their leader was a bender, and therefore a fraud, all along Took away whatever genuine argument anyone could put up

[@Suegiclah]

I saw "Amon" and I had flashbacks to Yakuza.

[@Oneiroi0]

Amon? *Raise Monocle*

[@SusanooMain]

@@Suegiclahwait, is that a pair of glasses?

[@swoozie]

Great vid- also the thumbnail is BOMB

[@TheTaleFoundry]

Thanks so much! Kinda wild to see you in our comments section! -Benji, showrunner

[@drawingdoritu]

I agree. Also, you are verified, but this isn’t a top comment yet🤨

[@w_zizo]

HOW DOES THIS HAVE ONLY 8 LIKES YOUR SWOZIE FOR GOD SAKE

[@davidarvingumazon5024]

@@TheTaleFoundry Is Johan Liebert a Villain or Anti Villain? Try *Monster* (Anime/Manga) I won't spoil you.

[@micro_seekers]

Maybe Berserk holds a good example since Guts and Griffith respectively seem like anti-hero and anti-villain up against each other in one story. You should talk about it

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

Nay. Griffith is irredeemable. He's the evil hiding behind a beautiful face archetype.

[@JohnnyElRed]

Yet he created a paradise kingdom where everyone could live save from the horrors he unleashed upon the world.@@SergioLeonardoCornejo

[@kalebburke8276]

@@JohnnyElRed Which was done becuase of his own selfishness though

[@siluda9255]

​@@SergioLeonardoCornejogriffith is literally the best exemple of a anti-villain but berserk fans keep listening to reddit opinión and don't think about what the manga really is about

[@siluda9255]

​@@kalebburke8276the horrors alreasy existed in fact you could say the pre falconian nations were even worst. You won't listen😊

[@vsg297]

The concept of anti-villain and anti-hero reminds me of Griffith and Guts from Berserk.

[@cauetgamer1144]

I think Mr.Freeze is a good example of an anti-villain, he just want to save his wife, but he still put innocent lives in risk and doesn’t have remorse

[@docproc144]

I think Soldier Boy from The Boys Season 3 is a perfect example of a good anti-villain. He’s likeable as a character and agrees to fight Homelander, the main villain, yet is still ultimately out for personal gain and will use questionable methods to achieve his goals. Walter White from Breaking Bad is another example.

[@persona8152]

He is an anti-hero, not an anti-villain. There's a difference, the top comment explained it well

[@StarionVR]

Damn, I just made a comment about homelander but didn’t think about soldier boy

[@benvictim]

Walter white is only a good example from earlier episodes. He slips from anti-villain to straight villain.

[@damonedrington3453]

What I like about Walter is he starts as an anti- hero, transitions to an anti-villain, and then just becomes a full on menace, before finally becoming the hero again

[@wackjack5667]

🍿

[@joendeo1890]

I personally think a good example of Anti-Villainry is actually some iterations of Lex Luthor. His end goal is usually baseline human supremacy and the destruction of Superman and other meta-humans, which is morally wrong. But he often does this through non-evil means and most iterations of him he is genuinely very concerned for normal humans survival in a world full of powerful beings like Superman. These versions of Luthor often use good (or at least not bad) means and good motivations, but his intended ends are morally bad.

[@maryanntoner4520]

I wonder where another DC villain, The Shade, would also fit into this paradigm. He was a member of the Injustice Society of America, though less of a megalomaniac than some of his ISA cohorts. As I understand it, in the comics, he saw himself as the protector of his adopted home Opal City, even serving as its legitimately elected mayor for a bit. While he’s certainly not averse to killing, there are moral lines he won’t cross; and he’ll occasionally work with the good guys to take down a bigger bad (if it aligns with his own interests.) Of course, some writers (like Geoff Johns) have portrayed him more as an antihero; and by the final episode of the “Stargirl” TV series (which was co-created by Johns), he seemed to be a full-fledged ally/mentor to the JSA 2.0, if not an actual hero. (Though I suspect that if the series hadn’t been canceled after 3 seasons, he would have remained more of gray character.)

[@SergeantExtreme]

Buster Scruggs is also a great anti-villain.

[@AceLong-rp9ny]

Yang from sifu is a good example of this. He is supposedly healing people with the one of the talismams but they also fight for him. He killed Sifu and an entire dojo over vengeance and a little bit of nobility but he still was evil.

[@minimaddu]

The Imp is one of my favorite [mostly] lighthearted anti-villain stories. She wants to treat people well, and she's tried to trust many times (and her luck does improve), but she also has good reasons for treading that line and playing up her villain role. (Imp is a character in a series of stories with the same name, by Morpheus)

[@centurion7744]

I shall read this

[@DavidGonzalez-zl3dz]

I fully thought you meant Imp from Worm and was kinda surprised that, yeah, she's kind of am anti-villain

[@PasgetiRBLX]

The amount of effort that must go into these videos astounds me. I love how Amon is used as an example for an anti-villain, he really doesn't get enough attention in my opinion. Keep up the great work 👍

[@Themightystar5000]

Well, I don't think Amon is really an anti-hero because he was a fraud

[@PasgetiRBLX]

@@Themightystar5000 That's... why I said he was an anti-villain?

[@FoodKingWolfie]

Hank Scorpio from the Simpsons comes to mind. Straight up bond villain- but treats his workers like he genuinely cares about them, supports his community, and has a wonderful sense of humor.

[@tymgames8307]

One of my favourite simpsons episodes. His character is unforgettable for me

[@tinapenafiel8174]

Me every time I get a new goosebumps book 1:09

[@Arturius01]

One of my all-time favorite characters in fiction is the anti-villain Kreia from Star Wars - Knights of the Old Republic 2. Her ultimate goal is to kill the Force so it can't exert its will over all living things. Not a bad motivation, but killing the Force also kills anyone connected to the Force, which is almost every living thing.

[@kidprime6863]

Everyone and everything in the whole galaxy would die, including her. I can understand her motivation as both the Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same coin. Light isn't always good and Dark isn't always evil. However like you said, her plan is not without catastrophic consequences.

[@verilyheld]

There's a science-fiction short story in which the two main characters become the hero and the anti-villain. The two men are trapped within a star vessel. Rescue is coming, but by the time it arrives, both men will have died from lack of oxygen. However, should one of them die within one hour, the other will have enough oxygen left to live. The story concentrates on one man, who eventually kills himself to save the other's life. That man is the hero, the one who will be held as an example of heroic self-sacrifice. The other is the coward--- wait. The one who lives correctly pointed out that whoever is left alive will for his life deal with the fact everybody he meets will consider him a coward. So, choose heroic death, or live for years being treated as a coward? The hero chose death, the anti-villain accepted a life in which he's treated as a villain.

[@mirfennec]

I'd say the one who survives can't be called an anti-villain. What defines hero or villain is their goal. Basically, hero saves others, villain harms others, and side characters are just there to show who is a hero and who is a villain. The survivor's goal was to live, and if he didn't play mind games with the hero or directly harmed him then he's just a side-character who happens to be a coward. At least that's how I understood the story from your words. By any chance you remember what it was called?

[@tsm688]

Sounds rather overwrought. My reaction to that would be "screw this, draw straws, get this over with"

[@cuileth3369]

Grand Admiral Thrawn is another good example. I‘d argue he starts out (in Legends, technically) as a hero, then makes his way to anti-hero all over to anti-villain. Cool video, thanks!

[@christopherpoet458]

I am honestly willing to debate he never settles on either anti-hero/anti-villain. He is more or less in between them both and all that matters is if you are with or against him. My understanding of Thrawn is that he dispised a lot of the political practices that plagued the imperial military, but valued its overall strength and formidable power. He wasn't for the empire, even in current cannon. There is a line in the third book Tim re-wrote where he openly admits indirectly that if he had to choose between the Chiss and the Empire, he would return to the Chiss and according to the start of the book, he was intentionally sent to be found by the Empire to judge it as a potential ally against much darker threats in the Unknown Regions. Through the Novels, despite serving and aiding an otherwise villainous organization and emperor, he still values the contributions of people beneath his station. He will do what he must to serve the empires needs, but he will do it with the least amount of unnecessary damage possible. He isn't seeking fights or destruction for entertainment or power, he is only acting as an enforcer. Idk what the Ahsoka show will do with him now that he doesn't have to worry about the Emperor seeking out the Chiss, but I admit I am afraid they are going to take this otherwise complex character and boil him down. I would love to say I have faith in Dave Feloni, but he also kinda dumbed Thrawn down in Rebels and I'll be honest I was not enthused.

[@Master_Of_The_Universe]

A great example of an Anti-Villain is Ray from Mr. Inbetween, he's a hitman trying to be the best father he can be. He attempts to help people as often as he can and will defend himself and others often but he's still an assassin at the end of the day. That's one of the best examples I can think of.

[@leucistic]

This channel is awesome, I remember finding it with the Yellow King video about a year ago, and staying up to date for a while. But then, unfortunatly forgoting about it. But now, rediscovering it, it's awesome to see you guys amassing over 800k subs, and being able to do the stuff you love with Nebula.

[@LuciferMorningstar-hk4ck]

I would like to mention that an analysis of guts from berserk as an antihero is a downright beautiful dance of light and dark, an almost irredeemably trashy character who becomes very likeable in just the course of a few chapters. Guts and Griffith have one of the most beautiful anti-hero and anti-villain dynamic, griffith being the worst most vile person alive (i wanna rip his guts out) and guts being just a struggling soul wishing for happiness.

[@gabrielbruce1977]

Guts is the kind of hero you just want to have a single good day in his life, ever.

[@udonnauchegbu2018]

It's quite the interesting dynamic. As we progress through the story in some ways it seems as if their roles have become more fluid. I mean think about it. Gut's goal is to avenge his fallen comrades and maybe to defy fate. But when you see the Empire that Griffith has established, it'll all fall apart when Guts kills him. His quest might spell doom for the whole world. Then there's Griffith. We know what's he's done, but we can't deny the good that he's established. Housing, employment, education,etc. Some might say that the ends justify the means in such a case. But you also have to realize that based on what Guts says, Griffith won't just stop. He'll keep aiming higher and higher. That can only mean that the bloody sacrifices that already got him where he was will only continue to increase. It wont mean much to anyone because at the end of the day, Griffith chose his dream over all else.

[@LuciferMorningstar-hk4ck]

@@gabrielbruce1977 of course, I wish they give the manga a fitting end

[@LuciferMorningstar-hk4ck]

@@udonnauchegbu2018 Griffiths idea was never to "do good" (not saying you said that, just conversing) but instead to fulfill his selfish goals overall, in the recent chapters Griffith seems to want to go a step further already, proving that what guts said about Griffith never stopping was true, not to mention him establishing falconia is a double edged sword, sure he made the safest place on earth but he also made everywhere else unsafe beyond repair (I assume), everything he does is to benefit himself, even letting the families of the dead meet with their deceased relatives was only to make him look angelic and good, instead feeding them to the big ass hell tentacle.

[@hanspeter731]

Griffith is interesting to me because you could make the point that his destiny was manipulated by the godhand to fulfill their goal of bringing suffering to the world. Griffith as a human already was no hero, he was willing to sacrifice his men in the pursuit of his dream, even if it wasnt so clear to him. He was shown to be empathic and caring towards his friends. And even tho he said he could never accept someone as his friend if he doesnt consider them an equal, you could make the point, that he only said that to leverage his chances with charlotte. In the end, hes a very manipulative guy, but still human. He still feels and suffers like everybody else. The loss of his best friend led him to make choices that would be highly untypical to him and could be interpreted as a way to cope with the pain/shock of not only losing your best man to reach your goal but also being beaten, his uncontested place at the top was now in shambles. For griffith, that was like a world crumbling in itself, which could explain his following actions. The man was not only broken by that, but also tortured for over a year. He lived through hell and was stripped of every possibility to ever become the man he invisioned himself to become. It was over, everyone that looked up to him could now beat him. He wasnt at the top anymore, he was nothing more but a burden to everyone. And at the lowest point of his existance, near death, losing everything he ever wanted, after being so close to it, the behelith appears and gives him a chance to achieve his dream. *cough* Godhand fiddling with destiny *cough* Dont get me wrong, i still hate that guy, but given all the context ist becomes more clear/understandable why he made his decision. If it werent for all these small things that changed his destiny, if it werent for losing his friend, if it werent for his torture, if it werent for Godhand manipulation, i believe theres a point to be made, that he wouldnt have made the decision. And after that, he wasnt human anymore. Femto, or post rebirth Griffith isnt human. He doesnt feel anymore. He is a demon in Griffiths body. The Human in him died when he became Femto. So all "Griffith" does past that point, i believe, isnt representative of how he wouldve acted before his transformation. So, to bring this to an end, i think we can all agree: Fuck that guy.

[@REIN-carnation]

I think a really good example of an anti-villain (the first one that comes to mind for me) is Tsukasa from Dr. Stone (at least during a good portion of seasons 1 and 2). He’s shown to have a pretty decent objective, and to be a pretty decent guy, to the point that if the story were told from his POV, you wouldn’t question it, but since he isn’t the protagonist, he just happens to be the villain.

[@danielchmielewski8568]

Heroes and villains do a stand-off from two, opposite sides of the store. Anti-heroes and anti-villains rather bump into each other on accident when going to the checkout. In other words villains and heroes usually have direct encounters, their anti versions not so much.

[@ManuraAriyathilake]

So happy to see Amon get some appreciation, Zaheer from season 3 also falls under the same category

[@jedimasterpickle3]

...does he? I don't remember Korra S3 very well but wasn't Zaheer just an anarchist? The Red Lotus seemed to exist just to tear down the pillars of society. Kuvira I think is a better example of an anti-villain.

[@satansjihad6353]

​​@@jedimasterpickle3the point is that anarchism is not about tearing down society, it is about building communities that organize by themselves without the need for government, pretty much like the kurds and the zapatistas do. Zaheer is a hypocrite who claims to fight for this sort of liberty but imprisions people, he's not a very good anarchist at all.

[@LightningAlchemist13]

​@@jedimasterpickle3idk if fascist high ranking military official is an anti villain. If anything Kronk from Emperor's New Groove is an anti villain: nice guy who just happens to work for Yzma

[@ManuraAriyathilake]

@@jedimasterpickle3 Zaheer is also a well intentioned extremist, like Amon he believed his extremist actions would cause good

[@controlman7490]

​@@LightningAlchemist13Well, when you look at Kuvira's goals they are in truth good objectives. She simply wanted to unite her entire country and provide her citizens with wealth and technology that's never been seen before. Every world leader would agree that's a good thing. The problem is Kuvira was a savage brute who tried achieving her goals by literally vaporizing people and invading sovereign cities/nations.

[@sevensatori1249]

Glad to see anti-villains getting some recognition as a trope. It’s really complicated to pull off, since you have to have a perfect balance between villainous goals and soft heart.

[@frostyobilivion8365]

Depends on the point of view. Making a anti some thing is easy. But the view in the story must be either villainous or heroic. Later in the story showing it's goals make it anti. Or first show a goal of that person. Than make an villainous or heroic story to make it anti. So making is easier than you think. But to make the view of it al in a good story that people like thats the hard part.

[@DS-jy6rl]

The talk of villains and heroes makes me think of Handsome Jack from Borderlands. The hatred I felt for the guy after he killed Roland, the way he spoke and everything. Yet it was complexing at moments as he did just lose his daughter from our actions, and he had a goal of reshaping Pandora (although with other motives of finding the vault). The whole planet of Pandora being a sort of jail for psycho and bandits, and that if you think of it our characters aren't exactly the embodiments of good; rather good but in a very chaotic and non lawful way. To where the Pre-sequel actually made me feel a bit of sympathy for Jack (but not a lot).

[@sorrow6680]

Honestly, considering all of those bandits are basically all more or less insane murders rapists burglars and many more types of criminals, I kinda want to side with Jack. You can't say he is evil because he sincerely wants to make the world a better place yet his methods are rather radical. Reminds me of Punisher from marvel comics: a good guy who lost his family and doesn't want anybody to live through the same experience. That's why I think Jack is an anti-hero and sympathise with him. If you think about it all of the playable characters(in bl2 at least I don't remember pre-sequel that good) are wanted criminals on a galactic scale and that probably hints at the fact that we arent the good guys either. Rather we are just bounty/vault hunters looking for something to satisfy themselves, more than heroes protecting the justice or something like that(e.g. Zero wanted a challenge, Axton probably wanted fame, and so on). But even considering everything written above I think it's not so much about heroes and villains in borderlands but about good people and bad people which is a line that's individual for everyone. There are lots of characters whose actions are good or bad depending on whose side are you watching from. Just like in real life we don't have heroes or villains we just have people with their needs and perspectives. p.s. terribly sorry for my punctuation haven't learnt it yet

[@Unsavouryflint]

Handsome hack was done so well it is hurting the borderlands franchise because he's a mass murdering fuckhead, but he's trying to save his daughter and he only spiraled down that path through a serious of unfortunate events. If you "play" tales of the borderlands, Jack admits to erroneously murdering his staff just because. You also can't forget that he isn't just killing people expediently (meaning pain free), he also tells a story about scooping this guy's eyes out with a spoon in front of his kids.

[@PeCoDEMIXEPHYR]

I will always, and always be in live with that intro. The animation is smooth, and something about it is soothing, comforting, even calming, in a way.

[@johnwaggner9143]

Alex Mercer from the Prototype series (specifically the first game) is a really juicy example of the intersection between Anti-Hero and Anti-Villain. 1) He has amnesia at the start of the game, so as we play we learn more about who he is - and who he WAS - and then have to come to our own conclusions about where those two versions intersect and diverge. 2) His stated goal is he wants to find out how he got these powers (a Neutral goal), and then both stop the infection in the city (a Good goal) and kill those responsible (an Evil goal). But then mid-way through the game, we realize that (Spoilers) the only way for him to STOP the infection is to take full command of its Hivemind and become its leader (making the method to accomplish the Good end Evil), all the people responsible for the infection are murderers and fascists who intentionally made it this deadly and destructive and they need to be stopped (justifying the Evil desire as having a morally Good result) 3) In the end, Mercer gave HIMSELF the powers unintentionally (Neutral) by intentionally releasing the virus HE had spearheaded the creation of (Evil) not knowing what it would be used for, and when he found out he contacted his investigative journalist sister to blow the whistle on the bad guys and only took a sample of the virus as insurance so he could get out of town, (Good) which the bad guys did not allow. The engineered a Deadman switch situation and the bad guys called his bluff, willing to risk an outbreak and needing to nuke the city rather than letting one man live with knowledge of their plots. Does this make Mercer an Anti-Hero? Or an Anti-Villain? The more you find out, the murkier the waters become.

[@syntheticant8172]

Good to see Prototype mentioned - that game was really fun!

[@amoltov496]

I think, Blacklight is out of these categories. Blacklight in Mercer's body is total tabula rasa became conscious very first time. His knowledge about the world are limited to knowledge of consumed people and what he sees by his own eyes from moment he wakes up. He looks for answer to very basic questions like "what am I?" and "what is my place in the world?". He uses the answers he get from consumed people, like, he is Alex Mercer, he has close ones, he has enemies, etc, so Blacklight tends to act as human at first, because it's everything he knows. So that's why he rescues Dana and seeking vengeance against those, who's guilty in Mercer's death and creation of the virus. Though, vengeance may be not only human intention, but also intention of virus nature, because it definitely feels not okay to be engineered to be just an asset for human military. An asset that they want to destroy now. As for Mercer, I think he's definitely a hero. He supposed, that he just will show flask with Blacklight sample and everybody will shit their pants and that will assure enough time to compromise Gentek and then surrender to police. He didn't know that Blackwatch will shoot him without warning. The statement, that he intentionally droped the flask is absurd and mere an interpretation of events given by other characters.

[@cotocoyerakson8195]

You know a lot about Alex Mercer. He wasn't good because he didn't care about casualties such as letting a couple of people die to achieve his goals, but he didn't choosed to kill people just didn't bothered if one or two ended up killed even though he wouldn't feel any satisfaction on it. He didn't want to let the city got nuked, maybe because he didn't want the people to get harmed but I believe it was more because of the next reason. Alex didn't care about no one except his friends. Alex suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder and Sociopathy, and different from psychopaths, sociopaths can actually feel stuff and work with emotions... they are unstable and can usually snap and behave by impulses. Borderlines are naturally emotional codependent, and so was Alex. He loved his girlfriend, and his sister and respected Ragland... He also wanted to save Greene from the Gentek's hands. He is capable of empathy and caring, but he does not do that for everyone just for those he likes. He does not care about the average Joe here and there, but he cares about that guy who always bring him coffe and complains with him about their job, talk about random stuff and laugh everyday. So he is more self-centered, he does not care about people enough to save them, but he also does not care about people enough to fuck them up intentionally, if someone gets to be in the middle of the crossfire is on them, he will not get out of his way to stop a monster to tearing someone apart... Or maybe he will... But that's only if the person in question reminds him somehow of Dana, his girlfriend or whatever. So Alex wouldn't mind seeing a pregnant women getting eaten by a hunter, but if he saw a boy getting in between a Hydra and his younger sister that would immediatly trigger his "I shall protect Dana!" button and so like he used to protect his sister when they were kids he would jump in front of the kids and throw a car on the Hydra to protect them because it reminds him of something personal... He only cares if it's personal...

[@The_Real_Alpharius]

I'll try to simplify what you said. Mercer was a morally grey guy, killing anyone and anything that opposed him, but generally leaving alone anyone who helped him or didn't interfere with him, except his sister who he cared for immensely, even saving her from the alpha hunter. On the other hand, he also murdered his completely defenseless ex who posed no threat to him he also cared for for selling him out to the military. Regardless, his plan was twofold: 1. To re-learn who he was (good) 2. To kill the ones responsible for the Blacklight outbreak in Hope and Manhattan and therefore save Manhattan (kinda bad but also good?) He tried to do these two things by terrible methods, but ultimately his goals were good. He was even willing to sacrifice himself for the city. In my mind, he's an anti-hero doing horrible things for a noble goal. Now Prototype 2 is a different thing entirely, let's just ignore that... Also, very glad someone mentioned this gem of a game.

[@crisiswanders1947]

Yeaahh this game was so good i wish they make prototype 3. But prototype 2 was not really fit for my liking. The new abilities were cool tho

[@Aleafplayz]

To be honest, anti hero sounds like some hero with the power of evil and the same for the anti villain

[@LateBoomer-sl1dk]

Welcome to non-dualism

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

Haha. That would describe a lot of my characters, then. I love having magic systems that are CLEARLY black magic be used by the good guys. Just, casually. Like, they don't have to sell their soul to get it, but they're using shadows, hellfire, and insanity to get their job done. And they just don't care. They usually do recognize that their asethetic does not match their morality, but they don't usually care.

[@battlesheep2552]

Ah yeah, I like that whole trope where the villain can go forward with their plan because the magical macguffin sees them as pure of heart

[@IdentifiantE.S]

Nice resume 😅

[@star-du6vp]

I don't like that version of anti villain I think a better version of anti villain from the TV show show boys because the guy was Superman's powers definitely has no real goal of good and all these anti v could be considered anti-heroes if you want to argue it the anti-villain cease talking about have adjust goal doing bad stuff to get it done

[@KRIMZONMEKANISM]

For a masterclassed Anti-Villain, go look up Plague of Gripes' video: "Villains" He first explores the villains and many concepts around evil, and then ends the story with what is likely one of the best written anti-villains of all time. I won't spoil it for you :p

[@ChemicalXII]

"A well written anti-villain is A-Train from the show 'The Boys'. A villain sometimes doing good, but mostly does bad = anti-villain. A hero sometimes doing bad, but mostly does good = anti-hero.".

[@kauaichan]

Before there was Thanos, there was….Ozmandias, from The Watchmen. One of my favorite depictions of an anti-villain 💕

[@Devils_Lair_Comics]

In a cinematic sense, you're right but Thanos actually appeared before the Watchmen book was released

[@firstname4382]

Didn't comic Thanos just wanna bang Lady Death *real* bad though? "If i kill half the universe, then she *has* notice me." The anti-villain of the Inifinity War is very much a different character. He was closer to Ozymandias in belief than comic-Thanos, at any rate. I'm oretty sure. I think. Maybe. Been years since I've read marvel.

[@kauaichan]

@@firstname4382 I honestly feel caught in a web every time I try to revisit my comic book memory vs the marvel….universe thing lol but yes, it was all for Lady Death. But his ultimate love rival was….dun dun dun DEADPOOL!

[@olivercastillo4843]

Nah ozmandias is a anti hero

[@kauaichan]

@@olivercastillo4843 even an anti hero wouldn’t willingly and happily kill MILLIONS, even if to save billions. That’s not heroism, that’s a calculated strike.