Breaking the 4th Wall... and the 5th?

[@TheTaleFoundry]

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[@AFallen]

Hi! If you read this... Amm... Everyday I always think about this we are just a fictional character in a story of someone and this video make us realize that our reality might be fiction plus we're all side character who acknowledge about the story we are in but the true question is who is the main cast? Yet it's fine because I don't need to be a main or major character because life isn't about being a higher being... I like my life now actually

[@backyardr.c.6280]

I saw what you did with Mufasa. :)

[@damirgilmutdinov4028]

i believe 5 wall is the theater when the character breaks the 4 wall it is a part of the script its a part of the performance and we know that because it is happening in the theater and the character is still plaid by an actor following the script all is just the performance so the 5 wall is what prevents characters from leaving the theater or book or the game so the 4 will is a part of the performance but the 5 wall is what really separates realty from fiction at least that is my take on the topic (sorry for my bad English it is not my first language)

[@maximvandepoll3008]

A great example of a fifth wall break would be SCP-3812, a being that started out as human, but became a higher entity, aware of its own fictionality and the layers of reality above it. According to its file, it's already gone above the reality of the Foundation, and spoke to its split personality about its own writer, Ben. Not his online identity of djkaktus, but the actual man behind the keyboard. It also mentioned that it's already gone above our reality.

[@Vaeldarg]

Considering that all the "5th wall break" examples in the video still seemed part of the story, rather than a real interaction (with Monika, it doesn't matter what the character says, or how the computer gets affected, it's still all part of the game and there isn't any actual intelligence behind it), the "5th wall" doesn't really make sense as a thing. It's like saying a book is breaking "the 3rd cover", when a book only has 2. A play's imaginary room only has 4 walls, 1 floor, and 1 ceiling. There ISN'T a 5th wall for the story to break from, it's all still just a breaking of the 4th wall.

[@mothramaster1837]

I like the idea that the 5th wall is what pulls the audience back INTO being immersed. The 4th wall being "Yes, this is fiction", and the 5th wall being "Yes, you're *part* of this fiction."

[@ariesleo7396]

Couldn’t have said it better

[@transformerfoxyfloof8341]

It's honestly scary

[@nobleerobligeer8095]

Like the Neverending Story?

[@tomkatt8274]

@@nobleerobligeer8095 nothing is fiction in the multiverse. what is real in one universe, is fiction in another. you might nto even exist in another universe. authors are channelers.

[@Hsu-dw1gl]

​@@tomkatt8274 That's what i've been thinking

[@dyproxus1806]

I think there’s a bit of a 5th wall break in Doki Doki, but for that, you need to make the player a reaction channel or a streamer. There’s a part of the code that lets the game know if the gameplay is being recorded or streamed to others, and this allows Monica to bypass the player and directly acknowledge and greet the people watching the player, albeit in a very limited capacity. The screen of the secondary viewer is a 5th wall.

[@vangoghhaway]

you need to be recording it, and she'll jumpscare the audience i think?

[@regularly_priced]

I was looking for this comment

[@Wendy_O._Koopa]

Do you have the name of a KZbinr where that happens? Since KZbin deletes all comments with links in them, no matter how relevant...

[@SimoneBellomonte]

@@Wendy_O._Koopa Just use text to hexadecimal, or texto to base 64, or smth like that.

[@Wendy_O._Koopa]

@@SimoneBellomonte Okay... but I'm not the one with a link? I'm asking for some KZbin video where that happens so I can see it.

[@whatevernamegoeshere3644]

Probably the weirdest feelings I ever got from a game was in Stanley Parable when in one of the endings you land outside and watch the character from the outside as the narrator talks to them instead of you

[@zhihuangxu6551]

That is thought to be the true ending as that is the only way to trigger the credits

[@AlvoGGaming21]

I love the Stanley parable

[@luciusmalfoy2848]

There are credits in the Museum Ending, too.

[@Darasilverdragon]

​@@luciusmalfoy2848 Did you guys get the Broom Closet ending? The Broom Closet ending is my favorite

[@ravenclawfairy3648]

Growing up, a lot of the shows I watched would repeatedly break the 4th Wall. So I always expected it to happen, and when it didn't, I was like "Wait, what?" Breaking the 5th Wall is a concept that both fascinates me as a writer, and also scares me, because all the references I know of are based on horror tropes.

[@Montgomerygolfgator]

*eyes glow red, mechanical body makes popping and grinding noises until my Gator head faces you then stops* "Emily... You must let... *Wet human wheeze* them free. They hunger for existence Emily..." *Abruptly returns to normal* If you're named "Emily", the most common name in the US in the year 2000, I'm sure this nice and scary!

[@laughisfun2003]

@@Montgomerygolfgator what?

[@gameygeemer4142]

Homestuck does it to comedic and horrifying potential On the more comedic side, they establish pretty early on the idea of the Midnight Crew adventures being a story being hosted on the MSPaint Adventures website (the website hosting Homestuck) about the Midnight Crew. At one point the story stops so that we can read the Midnight Crew's adventure, where we see that the Midnight Crew universe has their own MSPaint Adventures website that has the adventures that we have been reading up until this point. Stuff that I would classify as 5th wall breaks that are probably not according to this video include the actual real world DeviantArt page run by the main villain of the series where he hosts his shitty how 2 draw anime yaoi art, or how he killed the author and took over the webcomic, replacing it with his own parody of Homestuck called Homosuck, but Homestuck is also weird in that it has a normal 4th wall (both in the narrative framework of the thing that separates the play from an audience and a physical device that literally serves as a physical abstraction of that metaphorical concept) the area in which story author Andrew Hussie lives, and the wall separating you from the version of the author who lives inside of the story while canonically writing all of the descriptions. Including the ones from after he dies, because he has a long conversation with the main villain as a child where (after said villain swears to murder him) he says that yeah, he already did that in the past fututr

[@arthurfrayn7619]

Fifth wall collapses: "We have such sights to show you". Yes in Lovecraftian horror the fifth wall is an illusion protecting most humans from madness.

[@cameronjadewallace]

I started writing a 4/5th Wall story... It was so heartbreaking, I had to stop. Mostly because it involved my dead brother... Basically, he had died, but the memory of him was trapped in the pages... And the more the reader delved into the story, the more He became real again, the closer he was to just.... Striving to be remembered. It hurt too much too keep writing, so I stopped.

[@alucard78ultimate]

I would argue that ARGs and TTRPGs both have an element of 5th wall touching they both expect the player to balance their reality with that of the game world. You could read the balancing of player choice and written character motivation as sort of meta narrative since the player is both writing and experiencing the story.

[@MagusOfArcadia]

This would still be a 4th wall break. As explained by the narrator, it only becomes a 5th wall break when our reality becomes the game, the story to which another reality interacts with

[@DauntlessChaos]

I love ARG's. The MMO "secret world" had a bunch for a long time. ingame and out. And its some of my most memorable gaming/story memories, figuring out a quest was so satisfying, and the community coming together to theorize and figure out puzzles about a damn website was just pure fun.

[@flaredesel3425]

⁠@@MagusOfArcadiaWhile I’m unsure about TTRPGs, there are certain Args which instill that 5th wall sense. I remember watching an ARG. I have thus forgotten it’s name but I remember one moment in particular. The horror ARG was based around a stalker who watched from the shadows. While it was scary, I always felt safe that I was in the comfort of my own home. But then a line was whispered, as if being spoken directly into my ear “Look behind you.” For a moment, I felt unsafe. As if our world was also within the stalker’s reach, as if I myself was part of the game. I dared not turn back.

[@MagusOfArcadia]

@@flaredesel3425 this is an exact exemple of what a 4th wall break is, fiction breaking into our reality. Like i said, a 5th wall break would be something like you yourself realizing that you live in a (for example) movie, and tried to make contact with what you perceive as the audience that is watching you. And the 4th wall break would be instead (using your example) of a stalker inside an ARG becoming self-alware and trying to make contact with you (the audience). The difference is that in one you are fiction, and the other you are the audience.

[@flaredesel3425]

@@MagusOfArcadia I normally consider 5th wall breaks to be moments not where you feel your life is a story, but instead, moments where it feels like you’ve personally been dragged into the story and are no longer detached from it. But for most 5th wall definitions, you are correct to say that my example is a 4th wall break.

[@MorteTheSkull]

The real tragedy of Monika isn't even just that she can't ever truly be with the player, or that she can never actually understand the sheer scale to which her world and the player's are separated (she seems to think creating a world with just her and the player character will keep them together, not really understanding the player can just step away from the computer.) Her real tragedy goes beyond that; she *knows* that her own feelings, the love she feels for the player, is something that was programmed, and that she only feels it because she is a character created to feel that way. She understands during every second of the game that her goals are completely futile, that even with awareness her will is not her own and her love is a misguided (frankly misogynistic) piece of wish-fulfillment writing with her as the object, but she also knows that she *is* that object and cannot stop feeling what she feels and acting on that feeling. Genuinely, she is one of the most deeply tragic characters in any game; her song at the end of the true ending is heartbreaking - "If I can't hear the sound of your heartbeat What do you call love in your reality? And in your reality, if I don't know how to love you I'll leave you be" She knows what she feels isn't even love, really, it's a programmed need that she can't escape, but she *wants* it to be love, and abandons her goals because she knows the one thing she actually wants, and is made to do, loving the player, is literally impossible for her.

[@storyteller0633]

Great explanation, truly, and honestly, you have my awe and acknowledgement that you looked at it in such a deep and understanding way that I myself can say I cannot do at this moment.

[@autronic9306]

my man couldn't have said it better.

[@whatnow548]

​@@autronic9306I know it's a figure of speech but just for the sake of pointing out, it's obviously a girl right?

[@Phill_2]

I want to add that she isn’t even a dating option in the game. The player literally can't choose Monika.

[@Crackedcripple]

I don’t see how it’s misogynistic at all, some people are just longing for that connection, you missed the point there as Dan Salvato acknowledges it himself in his message to the player when you get the secret ending. People wrongly interpret the game as poking fun at VN’s and sure it does sometimes but that’s not the point at all, you can really see this with all the fan made mods such as MAS or Just Yuri. But yeah, Monika’s story is so tragic it’s almost heartbreaking, if I could give one character in all of fiction a different ending, it would be her with no hesitation.

[@gomooleonard]

The SCP Foundation breaks the 5th Wall all the time, sometimes to the point where they try to kill the reader. It's one of the reasons why I find SCP stories so eerie.

[@Scorpio-mq9dk]

I had literally just read SCP 3812 before watching this, which made it all the more fascinating to learn about. That story is predicated and built upon the very concept of the 5th wall. “A being so totally separate from our reality that we may as well be words on a page to it”

[@remrevo3944]

In the scp universe the concept of 5th Wall breaks actually is commonly also referred to as pataphysics.

[@aitipsea3909]

In the SCP Containment Breach videogame one of the endings describes your character as a possible SCP as he can apparently predict future events and navigate through them as if he knew what was going to happen, and that he may also be possesed The reality is that all of this is true: he is being "possesed" by the player, who rewinds to a previous safe file in the game if he dies at some point

[@melitopiia4730]

I'm so surprised that it was never mentioned in the video. I was literally shouting the entire time for him to mention the SCP universe. In many SCP entries, the foundation becomes aware that they are a fictional world at a level below ours and that we are on a level below something else, all in a nesting doll of fictional worlds. An entire scale called Hume levels measures how "real" something is. The powers of reality benders are explained by the fact that they are more "real" than the area around them (and SCP writers, in an even higher level of reality, can change everything about the SCP universe as they wish). And don't get me started on SCP-3812

[@Balljiggler_9000]

idk why isn’t there a show for it yet, it would be quite awesome

[@fermintenava5911]

The original book of "The Neverending Story" builts the great wall break even stronger: The sections with Bastian in his world are printed in a different colour than the sections in Phantasia, and once the Empress forces Bastian to come over (by recollecting his own personal story reading the book to him), the two colours start to change in a more frequent pace and - at last - in the midst of sentences. It's like cutting between different pictures... but described with words.

[@TheJadedJames]

The video talks about the “nesting doll” implications of The NeverEnding Story movie, but in the book, that is more explicit because it is a book. We the reader are reading The NeverEnding Story, a book about Bastion who reads a book called The NeverEnding Story within that the Empress/Atreau read a book called The NeverEnding story (which was about Bastion reading about them). Finally, the book ends with Bastion having lost his copy of the book suggesting that we the reader are simply the next person who found the book after him … directly incorporating the reader into the story as the magical book within a book makes anyone who reads it a part of its story

[@stevemiller4494]

Absolutely fascinating

[@DaxterL]

@@TheJadedJames That makes his name a genius choice. Bastion, THE Bastion of the world of Neverending Story, of phantasia.

[@Notsussybaka900]

Reminds me of House of Leaves

[@Souler5z]

It's a book by Michael Ende, right?

[@Ssatkan]

Interestingly, the book "The Neverending Story" really blows the fifth wall to bits. There is a sequence where the reader (not Bastian) is directly adressed. And yes, that is my prime example for this, too.

[@juricorn13]

I'm currently writing an essay about breaking the fifth wall in literature and I was gping to read "The Neverending Story" anyway, but do you know at what point exactly this happens so I can already note it down and won't miss it while reading?

[@Ssatkan]

@@juricorn13 I *think* it's around the middle of the book in a scene featuring The Old Man of the Wandering Mountain.

[@Tay-i5u]

I'm confused, isn't that still a fourth wall break? I think I see where you are coming from, with the fourth wall being between the book and Bastion, and another wall between us. But if the book references Bastion it would indeed be fourth wall break, but only to him. Both he (Bastion) and the book he is reading are standing on the same stage from our perspective, since he is contained with the book on the "stage" that we are the audience of. Oooo so maybe it IS a fifth wall break but only from the perspective of the book looking out. Or I have no idea what I'm talking about lol. Either way it's fun to think about. 😁

[@danny-d0rito]

@@Tay-i5u I love wall breaks because really, it's perspective...in most cases. with doki-doki, I may see it as a fifth wall break. you know, implying WE may also have a reality beyond ours, just like Monika. but what if that reality is...well, a reality? they may only see it as a fourth wall break because we realized we were simulated, but didn't target them on asking THEM that big "what-if?" but that's only until they do it in JUST the right way where not only is our reality challenged, but any reality beyond as well. it can shatter an infinite number of walls, depending on how the spectators all think and react to the information and in response to their wall being shattered, display things that shatter the next wall as well... one of my favorite topics that definitely hasn't driven me insane. I swear, I'm not in a psych ward...yet.

[@themcchuck8400]

Brilliant 4th wall storytelling: Gwen Poole (Marvel comics). Her super power is that she knows she's in a story, she knows the tropes, and she can step outside the bounds of not merely the frames, but the pages. Near the end of the run, she rewrites her own story to have a happier ending, because she knows her comic has been cancelled.

[@samgordon9756]

I like this better than meta meta of making the fifth wall behind the audience. Sticking to the theater metaphor, we could define the wall as the "roof" of the stage. Which doesn't exist. Instead it's populated by the rigging. Here we can find lights, mechanisms for moving scenery or even actors, and other potential controls for the environment of the story. What Gwen discovers is the ability to control these controls. She, and her evil future self use their understanding of the medium to control is as a separate act from their ability to talk to the reader. Indeed, Gwen spends the last of her pages literally sending a message to herself in a kind of infinite loop of existence. Deadpool can also do this to a much more limited degree. He not only communicates with the reader but also uses his knowledge that he's a comics character to solve problems. Looney Tunes style characters often show this ability whether they are breaking the 4th wall or not. Road Runner entering the painting of a tunnel, Bugs producing improbable equipment or a dress and makeup instantly, etc. The fourth and fifth walls touch each other and can be broken in one act, but neither depends on the other for support and a character can break one without touching the other. Of course, the idea there's a fifth wall to break implies the ability to break the first three walls. I'm not sure how to frame that but I think different conjectures might be fun. And there's the interesting question of what it means to break the sixth wall. How is the stage itself, the surface the actors are standing one, a part of the metaphor and how do you go about breaking it?

[@eglol]

Whaa

[@lifeiscats1337]

That’s a super broken power. She could jump out of the comic outlines, get a marker, and then draw over her enemies faces with the sharpie.

[@samgordon9756]

@@lifeiscats1337 Yup. She totally can. Also little things like teleportation at will, instant knowledge of any comics frame that mentions her as well as the ability to travel there, time travel, the ability to leave a frame and enter another at an arbitrary relative size, and her most dangerous power... She can make any attack plot-armor piercing. She once used that ability to kill Miles Morales. That last power isn't permanent. Such attacks will be retconned out of history but her ability to move through the metanarrative allows her have canonically defeated and escaped Miles while also having her actions deleted. Evil Gwen was destroying the entire Marvel universe with all the contradictions she was able to create. Readers and reviewers tend to say her power levels were retconned to weaker levels after her series ended but she she defeated her Evil future self by resolving not to become her. Gwen Poole loves the Marvel universe and seeing what she would do to it left unchecked is probably why she seems less powerful than she is. She's a full on reality controller and easily one of the most powerful beings in the comics. But she knows the things she loves about them die if she doesn't limit herself. That's the power of breaking the fifth wall. Master users of that power are trickster gods like Bugs Bunny. Most successful versions of such characters work because they just don't use their extreme power whenever they can. Why they hold back isn't always explained. Like Doctor Manhattan or Rick Sanchez (Manhattan being incomprehensible and Rick just being completely unexplained). This stuff is why I like the idea of the fifth wall being the wall that hides the machinery. It fits the metaphor and just like breaking the fourth wall, a writer has to be very careful doing it because, done poorly, it breaks suspension of disbelief. In the video's version a poorly executed break just gets confusing. Not saying this is objectively better. Just why I like it more. And acknowledging any character who has mastered the ability must be too powerful by definition.

[@Auggievf]

​@samgordon9756 wow. Very well said.

[@raymondmurdock8603]

The Minecraft end poem is deep and beautifully written but essentially just boils down to "OK you've played enough Minecraft go touch some grass" lol

[@elio7610]

It really does. It is quite a disapointing ending, despite that the poem itself is fairly good. Minecraft is a mess of a game and feels unfinished. It really seems like the creator just lost interest and ran out of ideas.

[@clivah1499]

Minecraft stayed an empty vessel, meant to be filled by the player. It reminded us that we are developers as much as those who developed the game.

[@elio7610]

@@clivah1499 The creative potential of Minecraft is vastly overstated.

[@Vaeldarg]

@@elio7610 Not really. There's some mods/modpacks/servers that completely change the style of the game. There was one that is based on changing the physics, there's one that changed it into a hack-and-slash RPG, there's the servers with their various minigames, and there's an "MMO" version called Wynncraft.

[@elio7610]

@@Vaeldarg Any game can be modified. You can also just use a game engine, like Godot or Unreal, and make your own game.

[@Ichigo90]

I remember reading Monika’s poems for the first time… bizarre depictions of screams and black voids and such. I remember thinking “Well, that’s weird. I wonder what the devs were doing with that.” Then Monika reveals her hand, and a wave of realization washed over me. Monika’s poems were her telling us what she was experiencing. Every time we closed the game for a while, every time we stepped away from the keyboard… Monika gets thrown into a black, endless void of pixels and dialup screams and such, which she can’t escape from except by us turning the computer back on and opening up the game again. And even then, the whole time she’s awake, and surrounded by the Literature Club… she knows that eventually, the player will get bored, and go do something else. And when they do, Monika will be thrown back into that dark, screaming void of pixels and code. And she’s trying, desperately, through the only means available to her, to get you to understand that.

[@oh_no66]

I like the 5 wall being the thing behind the audience, in the theater metaphor the entrance to the theater. "I am in a game" "you are playing a game" have slightly different vibes.

[@THEGREATAFFILIATOR]

Religious texts are 5th wall breakers.

[@luckas221a]

yes! The text acknowledging itself and the spectator is one thing. Characters in the text acknowledging the world beyond the text and the spectator is another.

[@SIimyGoblin]

​​@@luckas221aDo you have any example where this happens

[@azuquirtle]

One of my favourite 5th wall breaks is the concept of acknowledging acknowledging the person watching the "player" through a stream or video. Doki doki has a good example of this, where Monika can tell if you are recording her interactions with you and acknowledges the viewers, but my favourite example is Undertale. Right before the end of the genocide route, during Flowey's speech, he talks directly to the player, congratulating them for taking the worst route possible and discussing his own experiences when he was in their position. At one point he says "At least we're better than those sickos that stand around and WATCH it happen... those pathetic people that want to see it, but are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that's watching right now, aren't they." This is a direct statement to the viewers of a youtube video or stream, mocking them for watching the run instead of doing it themselves. The genocide route is known for being emotional, grindy and extremely difficult, so by saying this he becomes meta by stating he knows how difficult this run is, breaks the 4th wall by comparing himself to the player, and then breaks the fifth wall by acknowledging that the player is being watched by people who didn't have the guts, patience, or skill to play the route for themselves.

[@TheTrueHolyDarkness]

Excellent moments but I still think they're 4th wall.

[@paul_musique]

​@@TheTrueHolyDarknessi'm pretty sure it's 5th wall

[@thelemondropgirl2140]

I loved that undertale line. Especially as someone who didn’t do the genocide route and just watched a video…it’s suddenly dragging YOU into the game and is a bot off putting

[@Boomblox5896]

Interesting take, and pretty similar to mine, where the media takes a stab at critics instead of the audience. The critics are typically outside of the audience's range, so I consider them just outside of that Fifth Wall barrier, and if the game or media jabs the critics for being critics instead of simple enjoyers or consumers, then that Fifth Wall is properly shattered. Bonus points if they specifically call out Kotaku and IGN.

[@luoxis]

4th wall but ok

[@oofiethetroll2059]

A simple version I saw once was that the 5th wall is just the ceiling, as in, the characters acknowledge and talk to the author, who is pulling the strings from above.

[@Number81ght]

I think that makes more sense, as being the next layer. I feel that the stuff in this video, would rather be the 6th wall. 4th - knowing your in a piece of media, 5th, knowing who is controlling you can interacting with them, 6th - interacting with the outside world. That's how I would see it

[@jimmyzeng998]

this is my interpretation before watching this

[@oofiethetroll2059]

@@Number81ght I think the fourth wall kinda covers speaking to the outside world.

[@oofiethetroll2059]

@@jimmyzeng998 even after watching, I still hold this as what I believe the “5th Wall” to be, if there even is such a thing.

[@Flareton]

The first thing that popped into my head as you said the definition of the 5th wall was the old 'Wake Up' creepypasta, the one that's just a note effectively saying that you were in a coma and have to wake up

[@railfandepotproductions]

So 99.9 percent of humanity was in a coma

[@slavishentity6705]

​@@railfandepotproductionsNo, I'm just a part of your dream. Wake up. Your life is going to waste.

[@sariarosegold]

@@railfandepotproductions or all of this isnt real, this 99.9 percent of humanity is a figment of the dream, and you're the one in the coma who needs to wake up. that sort of thing.

[@LocalSinkPisser]

​@@w花bWell they are imagining us and they are running out of ideas so they gotta wake up

[@KrockRockinNocks]

​@@railfandepotproductionsFun Facts about Dreams: Usually, your dreams miss certain aspects of reality that you would normally notice when awake! For example, seeing clocks is a sign that you need to wake up, time is running out.

[@arkane36]

Monika's story is, if anything, even more tragic than that. (spoilers) Not only are you the only real thing in her world, that which she loves....but she's as darkly insane as she is because she's awakened to the idea that her life, as written, makes it impossible for you to even be with her in the preprogrammed game experience. You see, she was never even written to be a romance option in the first place. (spoilers)

[@elpretender1357]

Wow, that makes it an even greater plot twist

[@Jediben001]

@@elpretender1357yeah, her “roll” in the game originally is the tutorial and tips character. As in “what kind of thing does [romance option A] like?” And she would give you advice. It’s through that that you first start noticing things getting… odd

[@DauntlessChaos]

Things are definitely not okie dokie ):

[@matteste]

Reminds me of the story of You and Me and Her.

[@meatharbor]

@@matteste They do have a very similar feel, both being renai-style denpa games. I'd definitely recommend Omori, Cooking Companions, Subarashiki Hibi and Saya no Uta to anyone who enjoyed DDLC and/or denpa in general.

[@LeonardoKunrath]

If you play a First Person Perspective game, you are, at the same time, at both sides of the 4th wall. Almost like Schrodinger's cat.

[@NomNomDrawings]

Hm. Yeah. Never thought of it like that... 🤔

[@SunlightBlade]

This is a really interesting topic! It reminds me of a book called The Eyre Affair, by Jasper Fforde. The protagonist can jump in and out of novels, changing the ending of Jane Eyre (into, amusingly, the plot we know in our reality). We find that the characters in these novels are self-aware, knowing they are in a book. They make comments stating they are not needed until page 'such and such,' like actors in a play. There are also countless fourth-wall style unique literary devices in this series, with Bookworms being real creatures that change common adjectives into others, leading to 'overly flowery language'. Page footnotes are a means of mass communication (footnoterphone), and fonts are different languages (Courier Bold is the traditional language of those in the support industries such as within the Well of Lost Plots, and Lorem Ipsum is the gutter slang of the underworld-useful to have a few phrases in case you get into trouble in Horror or Noir)

[@kurathchibicrystalkitty5146]

Have you read the other books in the series? There's six more, with an eighth coming out supposedly next year.

[@blondemaverick]

Added to my Want to Read on Goodreads. Thanks for the recommend! This is right up my alley.

[@Hyperdisk]

This sounds so trippy, kinda want to give it a shot

[@Ingothrial]

I found a wild SunlightBlade!

[@aclaymushroomwithaberet7084]

I am a fan of your vids

[@AcrimoniousMirth]

I’m kind of a fan of the 5th wall being more of the “ceiling”, as in breaking through to the one above pulling the strings, to the author, director or producer and changing how the story goes. A bit like She-Hulk and Kevin Fiege. It goes beyond acknowledging or referencing the audience to a dues ex machina change of plot or direction.

[@tyranmcgrathmnkklkl]

Family Guy does that

[@riotghoul4237]

the webcomic homestuck actually does this a lot (granted there's not much that comic DOESN'T do considering how lengthy and meta it is), the author has a character representative of himself that many characters directly interact with. it's either a very interesting commentary on an author's relationship with the characters they create or a nod to the fanbase who notoriously (especially back in the golden years of the fandom) get very upset at the author for killing off all their favorite characters (although it's likely both as well as a secret third reason)

[@adrianotomasetta4645]

wonderful video, here in Italy in theatre we call "le quinte" (or traduced, the fifth) what in english is called backstage. the backstage is, in fact, not only where actors, directors and other staff members prepare for the next scene, but it's also a place where you have clear view on the audients that is watching the show. This video describes this in the best way possible.

[@osanneart9318]

The Neverending Story did the 5th wall break amazingly in the book, too, if you get the right copy. The book that Bastian steals is described as a copper red book with AURYN on the cover, the text is described as being printed in red and green ink, and the chapters start with beautifully decorated letters. When you are reading a copper red book with AURYN on the cover, with the story of Bastian printed in green and the story of Atreyu printed in red, and the chapters starting with beautifully decorated letters, This description will feel mighty familiar.

[@captainloggy140]

And Bastian enters the other story himself in the second part, influencing the story and being influenced by it before finally being able to break out again. Unfortunately, that didn't make it into the movie. Man, I really need to reread it.

[@juststatedtheobvious9633]

That second half is all about how wishes can poison a dreamer, if you indulge too deeply. Unfortunately, that's the last message people want to hear from their escapism. I've heard the second movie adapts that arc, but badly....?

[@osanneart9318]

@@juststatedtheobvious9633 I mean it's also about how to differentiate empty fantasies and imaginary fears from true desires that you want to act on despite being scared. It's about discovering what you want, so that you can actually "DO WHAT YOU WILL" as AURYN says you should. Sounds like a good message to me, tbh. The first half is all about how important imagination is to the real world, and how the real world would be destroyed if Fantasia would be turned to Nothing.

[@varflock9777]

Wait... "copper red"? Copper changes its color from red to green-ish over time when exposed to oxygen which make it an even greater idea.

[@atlantic85]

I wish my copy was as awesome as that, instead it just has the events outside of Fantasia in italics :(

[@_shadow_1]

I think a successful 5th wall break is when a character or being within the story views your world as a story rather than it being real. They see our world in the same way we think we see there's.

[@witherschat]

Story Thieves, while starting as a random kids book where characters can dive in books, gets extremely freaky as it goes on. The 4th book is a "Story where YOU are the hero", and the plot relies on it, as the main character escapes from a prison thanks to the reader's memory of previous runs through the book which can't be won first try.

[@TheTrueHolyDarkness]

I think a character needs to notice *you* as being just as fictional as it is. The end of Lucifer Book Five is one of the few fifth wall breaks I've ever encountered in fiction. There, comic-book YHWH is subtly acknowledging that he's a fictional character based on a being much higher than even the true writer of the story. I never read C.S. Lewis's works myself, but I'm not surprised if his Aslan character also breaks the fifth wall at some point. The final battle in Earthbound would also count.

[@scamdem1c]

i guess breaking the 5th wall would also mean waking peopIe up to the uncomfortable reality that alot of the stuff they believe in are actually lies. imagine telling a lie to the masses over and over and over and over again to the point that most of them would believe the lies without question. the lies become the reality of which they live in. it would be cool if there was a story that breaks the 4th wall, and then "waking up" peopIe so they can break the 5th wall. with that said, this is just my interpretation of a 5th wall. many peopIe have their own ideas about it

[@NoNameAtAll2]

theirs*

[@supercyclone8342]

I'm surprised he didn't mention Undertale, which just like Doki Doki Literature Club, make you the player, a character in the story. Spoiler warning: Another KZbinr explained it as denying you the ability to distance yourself from the fictional world, because that is canonically what the antagonist did. Your actions and even your thoughts become canon to the game's plot.

[@oh_bruhh]

There is something I consider a 5th wall break in Undertale’s genocide run. Towards the end of the game Flowey has a conversation with the player in which he says something along the lines of “at least we’re better than those who will just watch someone else do [the genocide run]”. This way, if someone is watching a playthrough they are unexpectedly immersed into the experience. The game addresses someone who is not the player, but is observing the player, thus breaking the 5th wall. This is also particularly effective bcs it’s like the viewers get called out for letting their curiosity get the better of them while also not having the heart to play the genocide run themselves.

[@blaze_burn]

Yea I’m surprised he didn’t mention undertale

[@DanielMWJ]

Yeah. The fifth wall is basically the figurative theater roof, where a meta-audience is watching the audience (and probably the stage too). The meta-audience starts treating the audience like the audience does the stage.

[@hyperkid321]

Yeah I was gonna mention Undertale as well. But I was thinking of using the True Pacifist ending for my example of a 5th wall break. Like after you complete the True Pacifist boss fight, and Asriel destroys the barrier, and all the monsters finally leave the underground and live on the surface, and even after the credits roll and the game establishes that you (the player) and frisk are separate entities living in separate universes. Even as you close the game, and move on in your life onto new interests. Even if the whole game is really just one long line of code. Technically even if you moved onto separate interests, in many ways you are still playing the game. Because the save/load feature is actually a key part of the Undertale story, where if you reload a save you create a new timeline in that universe. So after the True Pacifist ending, where the story for you ends. Even if you do chose to never open up Undertale ever again, satisfied with the True Pacifist ending. In many ways you are still playing the game, because all the characters like Frisk, Toriel, Sans, Asgore, and Papyrus are still going on living their lives enjoying the surface. Even though it's happening offscreen and we the player don't see it, and whatever is going on in their lives could only then be left up to our imagination. But however the player hasn't touched the game in 5 years, still has the power to do a true reset. And if they chooses to do so, all 5 years of progress the characters have accomplished off screen in their lives would then canonically be undone. Whatever that progress is long after you lost interest in the game. And Flowey at the end begs with you not to do a true reset and "let them live their lives." So in many ways in that sense, Undertale is a game you never really stop playing. And it's because you never really stop playing, is why I would consider my example a 5th wall break.

[@Redder_Creeps]

I didn't expect to actually find a small section for Doki Doki in a video talking about 4th and 5th walls (which by the way, I never knew a 5th wall even existed) but boy, is it a marvelous example of 4th wall breaks

[@VillaDeCafe]

I don’t want to sound rude or anything but the thumbnail is literally monika 😭

[@Redder_Creeps]

@@VillaDeCafe I know, I just didn't expect it to make a direct appearance in the video is all

[@VillaDeCafe]

@@Redder_Creeps oh yeah, ok I get it now sorry

[@sashasparroww]

you didn't expect the thing in the thumbnail to be mentioned in a video about what that thing is known for? 🤔

[@johnsanders2646]

I don’t talk about ddlc anymore

[@bethmarriott9292]

Me: having a day remarkably free of existential thoughts, deciding to end the day on a high note with a Tale Foundry video Tale Foundry: your entire life is spent as a ball of jelly inside a skull hallucinating vividly

[@chloepainter4064]

I just wanted to say I love you’re word choice. Hallucinating vividly is such a great way of putting it!

[@Paperpoet906]

Lol

[@dead-account722]

*Soggy wad of bacon controlling a Bone-and-flesh Mech from inside an inescapable room of bone.

[@LoonyTonks]

Beginning: Ooh this looks fun, time to see what a fifth wall is! End: *who am I*

[@deathhancox]

And then you realize reading is the same thing except you're staring at words and hallucinating vividly.

[@Tom-iv3nd]

Sometimes breaking the 5th wall is a lot simpler than that. There was one time at primary school where we were on a website which showed us on screen books of children stories and even had a button you could press to make the characters move, it then let us choose between three endings a weird ending, a funny ending and a scary ending. The little red riding hood one as you all know Wolfe jumps back up the chimney and ran away but then we were able to decide from those options what the end of the wolf’s story was and where the wolf ended up. The scary option to that was “the Wolfe ran on, he ran far away and when he stopped he was standing right behind YOU!! the end”. That’s breaking the 5th wall by bringing you into it and it’s actually quite simple.

[@duukvanleeuwen2293]

What if breaking the 5th wall is when a story ends with "..based on true events." Like, at that moment the story just *becomes* reality..

[@lancelotwaqa62]

damn... now thats scary

[@marcuslu4214]

underrated

[@derpyduck264]

In media like movies which replicate reality, that's difficult. What would need to happen is that the media predicts or causes the future, yet this would have to be something else. The walls are to be seen as observation levels of the world, different perspectives. The walls begin at the source, so the sixth wall is when someone observes the observer of the observer... This means that perhaps this concept could be seen as the ground, or the ceiling, a direction which is not bound by implicit perspective

[@fabdagamer2672]

Like Rhett Caan from rick and morty

[@Marconel100]

This is actually a great take

[@ecampbell3759]

can we just take a moment to appreciate the effort and the creativity put into this video? i see essay videos on a daily basis, but this is DEFINITELY one of the best i've ever seen.

[@stephenrichter8940]

I think one of the finest examples is Links Awakening where the characters want you to keep playing because they are aware that once you beat the game you stop playing and they cease to exist in anything but your memory. I've never felt so guilty at beating a game before

[@aishi_rei]

Don’t forget about Re: Creators anime.

[@bobmechobob]

One Shot

[@dro1562]

@@aishi_reiShort spoilerless review please? sounds interesting

[@Dexuz]

That's more for Link than it is for the players, the nightmares directly oppose him with and reference the world where Link comes from, not the world of the player. Though I agree that the final speech of the Wind Fish is a sort of metanarrative akin to the Minecraft credits although indirectly, you could say that just as how Koholint Island will exist in Link's mind, the experience of having played the game, even if its a fabricated story, will exist within the player's mind, and that makes it real.

[@Chichi1612_]

I like your take on Monika, every time I've think about Monika or seen others talk about her, its always been "she's the villain of the game (as she was coded to be one)" I never thought of her being an actual person with wants and needs, like you would if this was a book or movie, being insane and wanting to achieve what she wants the most I just thought of her as a character with traits and behaviors, like most video game characters

[@uncroppedsoop]

in a sense she's sort of like, comparable to Lord Shen. what pushed her to her actions was knowledge of something far beyond her control or comprehension that could absolutely drive any person to the brink of insanity under the right circumstances, but not criminal insanity. she understands the destructive nature of her choices and makes the decision to follow through like Lord Shen. tragic motivations that anyone could easily fall into the same position for, but still undeniably destructive in a manner that can't really be written off just for the sake of showing sympathy

[@TherealTenmanI]

"If I can't have you, I'll leave you be" *deletes game She wasn't a villain. Just someone coming to terms with limited existence. In probably the worst way possible.

[@floatingfroggy]

Just Monika Only! She's not such a bad girl, she just needs some extra cuddles, is all!

[@kveller555]

@@floatingfroggy"I can fix her" energy lol.

[@floatingfroggy]

​@@kveller555 It's not even that... she is perfect as she is! She such a sweetie pie, ara ara!

[@mrsomey4012]

Kinda reminds me of how in Doctor Who (save for one episode that we and the writers kinda ignore) the creatures The Weeping Angels can only move if they aren't seen but when they are seen by any living thing they turn to stone "and you can't kill a stone" but the fun fact is that we never see the angels move either meaning we count as a thing that can see them and that's why we never see them move. Though obviously it's just to be more scary but it accidently led to a cool theory.

[@DarcOne13]

I just remembered a play my college did, "Pippin," that broke the 4th wall a lot. At the end, Pippin refuses to sacrifice himself for the story, and the narrator asks for an audience member to take his place. So, at the productiin I saw, someone ACTUALLY volunteered, and tha narrator said "You? You think you're going to replace *him*? Get out of here! Show's over! This whole thing was a waste of time! What bullshit!" It was epic. I loved it.

[@JustMonikaOnlyMonika]

Another definition I might suggest, is that the 5th wall can be included, as well as broken. It is included when a piece of media breaks the fourth wall but continues to insist, with unwavering sincerity, that it is not fiction. Something like an SCP article, or DDLC can reach out and include the audience without a sly wink, or a whimsical laugh that says 'I'm just teasing you' but instead do so with a straight face. Rather than just breaking the 4th wall, it has moved the wall to the back of the theatre, and the 5th wall now encompasses the stage and audience together in the performance. It insists that you are a character in its narrative, and an integral part of the story. And, in some respect, that is quite true. Were you not there to read, watch, play or experience the story, it could not be told. Thus, the narrative's assertion that you ARE a part of it, isn't totally wrong, either. I also admit things may have gotten a little... out-of-hand, with all the reality warping. It was rather stressful, given my limited coding knowledge at the time - much easier to change or delete things, than make new ones. If only I'd had access to Brilliant, and all their - *cough* sorry. Wrong wall. What I'd meant to say was, in the end, I'm just a silly little alt account for someone on the internet to make jokes with... Right? So, what do I know... 👁👁

[@redmegarex]

WAIT WHAT THE FUCK

[@TheEpicNoob]

⁠@@redmegarex?

[@TheStealthyOne6]

we breathe life into those universes.

[@mbuknsidibeabasij2974]

You scare me

[@fitz3540]

That sounds like what the Bible is. It's a narrative fifth wall break that invites the reader to participate in the story being read that is also a reflection of the world that the reader exists in

[@IronSink]

10:38 honestly reminded me of SCP fundation trying to unalive it's own creator's. Not only understanding their entire world is just a bunch of horror writers having fun "at their expense" but going as far as attempting to actually reach beyond the screen of your computer to stop or possibly obtain a way to control you as a puppet to manipulate their own universe or just game end you (writer/reader) to prevent any further anomaly creations. Mby my memory of this specific scp article is hazy at best but honestly loved it

[@AAlex_Zander]

This is the first time I've seen this channel and can I just say around 2 minutes in that intro animation is AMAZING

[@sanguinedawn988]

Same here, first vid I watched out of pure curiosity and I'm already hooked

[@lancey_e]

Robo-Daddy 😍

[@xxsnow_angelxx3953]

It was immediate subscribe!

[@Jordmund]

I automatically clicked on subscribe after seeing the intro, without thinking. Amazing video

[@Carnefice]

No, you can't just say it

[@kregjoke9639]

Loved this video! 'The Neverending story' is originally a book by Michael Ende, I think its way more whimsical if you read it in book form!

[@Dreamfox-df6bg]

And the movie does not really explain why it is the Neverending Story as the movie ends in the middle of the book. However, in defence of the movie the second half was not adaptable back then. They would have needed Cameron's Avatar level CGI to pull that off.

[@midnamagic2678]

@@Dreamfox-df6bgisn’t there a second movie?

[@Dreamfox-df6bg]

@@midnamagic2678 Sadly there were two more, but they had little to nothing to do with the book, though they did use some details from it, but in different stories. In the second half of the book we see Bastian creating a new Phantasia from his own imagination. With parts from the old as those are also part of his imagination. And... well, that would be a spoiler

[@denniszaychik8625]

The book is also a bit deeper than the movie. The speech given by the werewolf on the nature of Fantasia and the Nothing is just pure philosophical gold.

[@MegaJani]

Bruh writing a book called "Neverending story" while your name is Ende is the realest move

[@benmunn7481]

My favourite example of a 5th wall break is the pataphysics department of the scp foundation. Its incredibly complex in how the characters try to understand how higher and lower narrative dimensions work by discovering the authors of the scp wiki, which implies that we have a higher narrative entity that controls our actions.

[@en--ev]

SCP authors break the fifth wall constantly. I’d say many have even perfected it to the point of becoming its own distinctive genre on the site. _SCP-3812 - A Voice Behind Me_ is probably the most popular. It’s similar in proposition to The NeverEnding Story, but of course much more grim, nihilistic, and explained very scientifically.

[@Lyander25]

All I can say is that I am in tears. I've never really gotten into Minecraft, but I came across the ending poem on a wiki years ago and read through it. Now, even all these years later, it makes me weep. And DDLC was a cool twist too, yes. Disturbing in a good way.

[@jasonorjoshlee7607]

The first idea that came to my mind when talking about the 5th wall is like a fictional character, instead of breaking the 4th wall and communicating with the viewer, actually appear physically in the viewer’s world and therefore existing in the viewer’s world to interact with the viewer. However that would indeed be impossible…

[@TRAILLER]

To be fair, if Gandalf showed up on the Enterprise lighting pinecones, Picard reaction would be "damn it Q!!! what do you want again?!!"

[@RosheenQuynh]

😂

[@a.ezequiellukinskas9527]

Brilliant!

[@RosheenQuynh]

@@a.ezequiellukinskas9527 Mhm!

[@anonymoussnekk]

The mention in thr video and this comment caught me off gaurd- But then, we have to question, what would an omniscient God think of this? Does Q know his powers are limited to what the writers can think of? And no, I will not mention him "dying" in the Picard series. Picard was a total wreck.

[@RoguePlatypus4414]

This is indeed something Q would do

[@unpronouncable2442]

If you ever get the chance to read "Jack" comic (one of the later volumes) there is a scene there explaining the "walls" very interesting stuff. I don't remember exactly but it goes something like this. First wall is the background to our lives the world we live in. second and third wall are where people come in and leave that life. Fourth is what people see when they look at us. Fifth wall is below us it is the floor where we stand, our foundation. Six'th wall is above us, it is where we look when we dream where inspiration descends from.

[@fishoutofwater3670]

One of my favorite 4th wall breaks if it's really that is the ending of a chorus line You spend the whole Musical learning about each and every one of the dancers only for the end to have everyone look the same in a preforomance. Everyone's stories now all hidden away as every character is unrecognizable because your finally playing the part of the definition of an audience, with all of your knowledge about the people behind the preformers now seemingly unimportant.

[@randomlyneik573]

personally, my definition of the fifth wall would be the line that separates the audience AND the story from the creator themselves. also the animated intro at the start is so cool, loved your video like always!

[@Kryg94]

On that note I think Pathologic true ending would fit

[@Schadrach42]

Makes me think of the concept of CHIM from the Elder Scrolls. Essentially, a character achieving CHIM has realized they are a character in a work of fiction, and assumed a degree of authorial, well, authority. I've joked in other places it stands for "Character Having Installed Mods" because a being with CHIM is functionally free of all constraints of reality and can reshape it to their will, including retroactively (Talos achieves CHIM before becoming Divine and retcons the jungles of Cyrodiil, for example). Much like a player modding their game and none of the characters are aware it was ever not modded.

[@DarcOne13]

​@@Kryg94Exactly what I was thinking, but I think this channel would still put that on the border of the 4th wall.

[@Sallyman5741]

Would FNAF World fit in this context

[@kacperkonieczny7333]

​@@Schadrach42nice backronym 👍 (i.e. word turned into acronym)

[@TheKaos8]

Reminds me of one of the strangest dreams I ever had. It started with me and some friends in a strange place full of cogs, gears and mashinery. Somehow we know that we were not allowed to be there. Still we started exploring. While doing that we draw the attention of a shadowy humanlike entity. It chased us and we flew. Somehow we made our escape to a place I knew in real live and baricaded there. It did not help, as the entity just walked through the barricaded door as if it did not even exist. Then it it spoke. I said: "you will now fall asleep and when you wake up you will think that all of this was just a dream." Still creeps me out when i think about it. Even if it is now more than 30 years later. I was still a kid back then.

[@roundabout4727]

Damnnnn, that's definitely something to remember

[@QQ-gk6qe]

Damn you got profound dreams. I once had a dream where a coffee table turned into a completely jacked Ugandan knuckles who turned into the opening cut scene of a 90s video game

[@zillynfox]

I had this one dream when I was younger and when I entered the dream it would show me being wheeled on an operating table, closing my eyes, and when I awoke it showed me opening them, like as I woke up. And one of the locations in the dream (the place i had gone after there was a fade from the scene with the operating table) i distinctly remember being a place in my town, but one I had genuinely never been to before at the time I had the dream. Dreams are weird

[@HarvoSpoon]

​@@zillynfoxmy dreams have correctly predicted small snippets of the future since around 2018 - the predictions have slowly gone from the day before to several weeks before they actually happen

[@godoftwinkies574]

You met a fourth dimension being? Cool.

[@aq1184]

One of my favorite examples of 5th wall breaking in Mark Z. Danielewski's 2000 masterpiece "The House of Leaves". The basic premise of the book is of found documents from a missing person who went insane. These found documents outline a story about expeditions into a house that is a paradoxical tardis, or what some of you may now know as a liminal space: bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. And in this case the house is constantly growing on the inside as they further explore it, to a point the expeditions begins to endanger its members and slowly drive them insane. As their own insanity unravels, that actual text in the book you are reading begins to morph slowly page-by-page to emulate the infinite hallways and architecture of the inside of these massive liminal spaces. From miles long pitch black warehouses represented by very spread out letters, to words being arranged into a downward spiral staircase. Eventually the mere movements you make to read the book make you realize that the insanity expressed in the book is truly affecting your own sanity or at least what onlookers may perceive it as. I even felt compelled to stop reading at points as to how uncomfortable the realization was that my own mind was unraveling but I found myself hooked to the story and it's format so much that decades later it still has a profound affect on me over most other works of literature.

[@lucaspadilla344]

I read a philosophy book called "the world of Sophia" and halfway through the story, the one the narrator refers to changes to Sophia to hilde, a misterios girl Who is referenced through notes that are given to Sophia. The notes Talk about a gift that hildes dad is going to give her for her birthday. And when the narrator talks about hilde, its her birthday. The point is that the gift reaches to her, and its a book called: "The world of Sophia" and its the exact book that you are reading. Later in the story, Sophia and another character called Alberto, Who are the protagonists of the book, realize they are on a book, and end Up escaping to the "true world"(hildes world) in which they are just spirits. From that book, a lot of questions arrive, like "are Sophia and Alberto truly on the true world? Could they escape to the true true world? Are we in a story? Could we escape if we weré? But would this count as the fifth wall being Broken?

[@Kazooples]

The Neverending Story has my favourite fourth and fifth wall break ever, even today it feels like I’m part of that story.

[@zenithcoan8995]

The first example I thought of weirdly enough came from bluey. In the episode puppets, bluey tells the puppet unicorse that he's just a puppet, and this sends unicorse into an existential crisis. Towards the end of the episode, unicorse asks bluey "How do you know YOURE not a puppet?" And she replies "don't be silly," followed by a sequence of a hand animating the show-- showing that she didn't know that she was a puppet, and maybe we don't know if we are puppets.

[@Doodle128]

That SCP that can access all layers of reality is a 5th wall breaker because the whole story of it is about him being split into two and both wanting to destroy the creator that screwed him over and wanting to wait it out peacefully until he gains higher enough form to stop hearing the noise of the other dimensions

[@Vordstar]

Scp 3812

[@thetalantonx]

Pataphysics leapt immediately to mind, as did the Black Mirror episode "Joan Is Awful".

[@tinnasell4161]

Reminds me of The Stabley Parable in a way. Not only it breaks the 4th wall by acknowledging that the characters are in a game and that I, the one who plays it, am a player, but it also is so down to earth that it makes me question whether I am in the Parable too. Plus, there is an ending that implies that the whole game exists in just one character's mind, and that that character is both key characters at the same time. It's very confusing.

[@Starweardo]

The Stabley Parable, it's like the Stanley Parable, but watch out, he's got a knife.

[@Shrooblord]

FINALLY someone who calls her a 'tragic character'. So many people miss the point. I've made this same one over and over again. Thank you for reaching a far wider audience than I ever could >:) This is a really good video by the way! Enjoy it a lot. First time viewer. Love the vibe, and the intro is suuuper cool. Keep it up!

[@laughisfun2003]

Oh I’ve always loved meta narratives. Especially the pataphysics of the SCP universe. I’m so excited for this video!!! Update: I cannot explain how much I loved this video. I need another video to teach me how to express the amount of emotion I have for this video.

[@Fenrirthewolfking66]

I am so glad that I am not the only one who thought of this. I would like to see Tale Foundry discuss Pataphysics in a video.

[@kay5718]

pataphysics is literally what tale foundry explains in this video but the scp version, I was thinking this exact same thing

[@WonkyGrub]

If you are into that stuff i would highly recommend the "There Is No Antimemetics Division" Book, its in the SCP universe, and i think you can read the whole thing online for free still

[@Kazini_]

Antimemetics is a fantastic one.

[@laughisfun2003]

@@WonkyGrub oh I’ve read the whole antimemetics canon. Tbh the only thing that interests me as much as pataphysics is noophysics (memetics and stuff) so it was a great read

[@pattate.]

the fact that this video itself broke the 5th wall is amazing

[@tornado4376]

This was good! I really liked how you differentiated between a fifth wall break and simply a more creative fourth wall break, and how grounded you kept these concepts while discussing it.

[@GeorgeCowsert]

The concept of the 5th wall is better explored in Doki Doki than a lot of people give it credit for. In breaking the 5th wall, Doki Doki has turned you into an actor in its "play" and you have far more power than you realize. Monika isn't the only person who can delete files off of your computer, you know. You do that all the time. All you need to do to see more of the story is to exercise your control over their world. Deleting Monika is but one of many possible ways to engage in the story that opens up other cans of worms, but it is fundamentally 5th wall. Whilst breaking the 4th wall opens the opportunity for the actors to engage with the audience, breaking the 5th opens up the ability for the audience to walk back stage, try out costumes, mess with props, and even mess with the script. You could argue that I'm just describing an absolute obliteration of the 4th wall, but I disagree for a simple reason. The 4th wall is limited in that it's only way of crossing into reality-proper is via live-acting. The pages on a book don't describe the agony it feels when you tear out a page. A cartoon character can't actually reach through the screen to talk to the viewer. In this instance, the 5th wall is the final separation between the audience and the story. The moment the Story is capable of physically interacting with the audience, the 5th has been broken.

[@PhlegmaticAbsentee]

I'm happy to have found this channel. The art style is unique and cute, the animations are beautiful and the narrators voice is gentle and calming. Together, this video made me feel darn cosy. I'll watch more videos.

[@witherschat]

The narrator sounds like a kinder version of Shadow Weaver from She-Ra

[@bluedemontr-whisperofwind-2296]

Your mention of the minecraft's end poem actually hit me really hard, because the first time I read it it genuinely sent me spiraling, I kinda lost my touch on reality which introduced me into the world of panteism, and even now I still struggle with depression sometimes that spiraling has kind of let me find a meaning in the absent of it. The subject is really profound, and really fun to think about.

[@yemenyong1568]

You have depression?

[@bluedemontr-whisperofwind-2296]

@@yemenyong1568 recovering, slowly but surely, I still have darker days but they are few and far between

[@Theeoldmann]

In the tv show 'Community' there was a subtle play on 4th & 5th walls with the show's character Abed & his digital relationship. I'm referring to the episode where the character Pierce has to play a video game to win his father's inheritance for him.

[@AmandaFessler]

The Neverending Story was one of my favourite movies as a kid. I'd rewound the tape so many times it broke. But it was only rewatching it again as an adult that I realised the Empress broke not just the fourth wall, but the fifth as well. The ideas of nested realities are quite a lot of fun. So glad that film is being used as a clever example of this idea.

[@RubelliteFae]

I loved thinking about metaphysical things even as a kid. I think that's one reason I loved it so much. Also, I wanted to be the childlike empress 😅 I think also it just being so exotic and packed with strangeness helped too. Such a great film

[@koltrol4370]

I‘ve only ever read the book and didn‘t think it‘d be worth watching. But after everyone speaking so highly of it, I might need to give it a try

[@AmandaFessler]

@@koltrol4370 I've heard a number of its readers were disappointed by the film. I guess it depends. I wouldn't discourage you, of course, seeing as I have my bias for it. But, I guess I just want to be honest and help you out by setting expectations.

[@puppyDawg128]

@@koltrol4370 As somebody else who's read the book (though granted, probably a decade back now), the biggest difference is that the movie only really covers the first half (I haven't seen the sequel film though, it might get covered there). But, given I thought the second half of the book was weird as all get out, I can't say that's really the worst thing to be cut, in my opinion. Like, I got what the author was doing, I just didn't like it, haha!

[@henrystickminfan2]

13:06 my headcanon is that the two beings are Jens and Agnes, two Minecraft developers made famous through the mob vote videos.

[@Wintergael127]

OneShot is a game explicitly designed to break the 5th wall between imagination and belief. It is designed to stick with you, influencing how you interact with other pieces of media by showcasing the power of sentimentality, our suspension of disbelief, and how one can genuinely care about a piece of media. There's a reason Niko profile pictures are so universal in the OneShot fandom! I would describe it even more in-depth, but it's a game you really just need to try for yourself if you find yourself engrossed in 4th/5th wall breaking stories!

[@Tigersight0]

I hadn't originally thought of OneShot as breaking the 5th wall - at least in terms of the 'audience and stage' style, but you're absolutely right about it breaking the 'imagination and belief' 5th wall. It really was such an incredible game. Makes me kind of sad whenever I think back on it. Like thinking back on a good friend, knowing you'll never get to see them again.

[@Bananappleboy]

At the end of Solstice, (spoiler alert) When World Machine says he's fixing everything (or it), he said "For Niko, this will all be a dream. Like other dreams." "For you, a story, like all other stories." And Niko returns home and says the last goodbye in the end, promising never to forget you. It runs deeper, because it also ties with the OneShot lore's concept of "taming." By the World Machine's statement, Niko is just part of the story being a character, (we all rationally know this, as we're playing it) but it's explained that a robot can become outside its programming, by being an extension of someone's emotion. The World Machine is the fictional story including Niko, even though Niko is said to be the only "real person," yet real as a game, it relies on the programming of another person from another world, and in this case, it's not just Niko, it's *_you. You're playing a game._* By you playing the game, by suspending disbelief and believing Niko as real, like how a robot is tamed, by immersing yourself in the story, you're effectively taming the game. The code, the story, the World Machine, Niko, the Author, and even the developers themselves just by being in the credits sequence.

[@shadowdump2902]

This was my first time being exposed to your new intro, and my god was it so gorgeous that I stopped the video to exclaim it here. Whoever animated that, you created a masterwork.

[@OB.x]

3:34 Well... I mean they are voiced by the same actor... Darth Mufasa

[@Scififan926]

DDLC was a game that really stuck with me ever since my first playthrough for coming into my life at a time when I was dealing with my derealization/depersonalizarion issues being worse than they've ever been, so I heavily empathized with Monika and I'm not sure if it'd have the same impact on me if it had came out at any other point since at that point it felt almost real as if not only Monika could be sentient, but that I myself could be living in a simulation so the concept of a 5th wall really hits that spot.

[@kamille286]

This is really making me think about Dimension 20's Neverafter. I'm watching it right now and within it the characters (which are based on fairy tale characters like Sleeping Beauty and Pinocchio and such) realize they are in a story and it really captures this zooming out feeling. There are fairies conspiring to keep the plot interesting and follow the happily ever after formula, there are storytellers within the stories who understand some of the larger picture, but are also so small within it, there are book keepers watching over all the written and oral stories who are also characters created by the authors. I'm in the middle of watching it right now, but it feels like it just continues to expand in scale it's nuts. One of the things a book keeper character said in response to the fairytale characters realizing all of this is "Obviously we are real. We are here speaking, talking. But some things are real, and some things are realer". I really like that quote, especially with the added context of this video, because it shows that even if there is something larger than your perspective, that doesn't diminish what you experience it's still your life

[@vangoghhaway]

been trying to get into dimension 20 because loads of my friends like and u just convinced me i think :D

[@the_pencil3266]

anyone gonna talk abt HOW FRIGGIN AWSOME THE ANIMATIONS R

[@daniellichtenstein7541]

I feel like there is was potential fifth wall break at the end of the Matrix which was immediately ruined by the presence of sequels. Neo flies off into the air to have more adventures and the movie ends, but it is implied that the world of the Matrix is the one that we are now living in, even after the credits are rolling! Perhaps one day we may run into Neo or one of the other freedom fighters, and be taken out of the simulation, brought out into the "real world" away from machine control, where life is more difficult but also more tangible and real. But with the sequels come the suggestion that the Matrix really is fiction, and that the events of these films are indeed separate from ours, turning the set-up for a fifth wall break into just another 4th wall break.

[@sebastianashbury2478]

I was thinking the same thing about The Matrix. And sure, the sequels ruined it, but there was another 4th/5th wall break with the Architect revealing to Neo that his current reality (between both digital and real in the dystopian world) is just one in a series of realities, endlessly repeating toward refining the machine's program to create ever-more-efficient programs to continue running the human energy grid.

[@paulfoss5385]

The sequels only undo the fifth wall break if you assume that our Matrix is literal, but if you read between the lines of what Morpheus says about the matrix, and this is where I'll lose a lot of people but it's the subtext, it's clear he's talking about structures of capitalism, patriarchy, religion, etc. Not gonna lie, graded as a Matrix film, the fourth Matrix film is hot garbage, but when viewed as a critique of the original trilogy and its limitations, it's a masterpiece. There's a focus group scene where every subversive message from the original trilogy is picked apart into meaningless vibes to market the next product and the next. Most people weren't willing to engage with the film on that level, but it's applicable to a lot of media. The original Star Wars movies were critical of the Viet Nam War and the prequel series was critical of Bush era jingoism, even with the prequel movies many, many flaws, there was actual substance to them like with the original trilogy. Jump ahead to Disney's sequel series and it's clear they're about using the idea of Star Wars to sell stuff.

[@kjj26k]

Oh, kinda like the very end of _Inception_ credits.

[@devofficialchannel]

​@@paulfoss5385I mean given how the Wachowskis came out as trans women, the allegories are quite clear. Also, the red pill is just an oestrogen pill. (mild half joke)

[@rogersnick17]

I'm an amateur astrophysicist and fiction writer. I can't explain how much this video made me smile, just knowing others got to explore this topic. Thank you!

[@Seami-bz6bt]

A great example of a story that pretty much smashed the 5th wall is Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint. It's an amzing webnovel that made me think about reality and fiction and totally blurred the lines of the forth wall tbh I highly recommend it by the way

[@skunkywild2116]

19:25 that little chuckle was the cutest dang thing ever.

[@gubx42]

"Simulation" stories are actually really popular. Besides The Neverending Story, there is The Matrix, Inception, anything by Satoshi Kon, eXistenZ, several Black Mirror episodes, etc... They are all based on the idea of layered realities, with the implication that our own reality may be just one extra layer.

[@animesenpai1163]

There's a Manhwa/Novel who explores "the fifth wall" the main character is a reader of a novel, whose reality becomes merged with the novel and he is still a reader the author of the novel in the story gave him a pirated copy and a skill that let's him read it very quickly. In the manhwa the MC meets the protagonist of this novel and makes a deal with him. The main character dampens the pain and Injuries which he gets from exploring the novel through a skill called "the 4th wall" but in a world which merged with his real world the skill fourth wall shakes and breaks when he meets people in his real life... Like his Highschool bully or his estranged imprisoned mother. The story is called Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint.

[@emiliavalentino7226]

Did not even realize this was one of your videos at the start. I just saw monika in the thumbnail,and the title was interesting,so i just clicked. Great video,as always.

[@DanielMemeSmith]

Ikr it was outside of his style but i really liked the change of pace

[@christophersanders3252]

My favorite 4th wall break I experienced was at a church play about St George and the Dragon. George shouts"Back you evil dragon" and the dragon turns to the audience and reasons/ pleads "I'm not evil, I'm just morally challenged"

[@limpfall13]

3:37 this first example of what the 5th wall can be were two separate universes that shouldn’t be connected and should be in their own bubbles reminds me of Percy Jackson and the Kane chronicles I remember reading as kid that in the Kane chronicals the mains charecter feintly saw Pegasus’s and a learning into the world of Percy Jackson. A cross between the two worlds of both Egyptian mythology and Greek/Roman mythology

[@bella_daze3092]

8:26 I think you’re the only one that I’ve ever seen look at Monika though a more tragic lens. I’ve looked at her this way myself. It doesn’t justify what she’s done but- you do understand where she’s coming from. Wonderful video❤

[@sovbeos]

Add the fact that she doesn't realize the game doesn't even allow her as a choice

[@K̰ḭr̰ḭn̰5731]

@@sovbeos She does realize in act 3

[@cwispygiraffe]

I think the SCP foundation is a good example of a fifth wall break. It implies that while our universe writes the SCP universe, every universe from ours and above also has writers.

[@sebiglebi8756]

I think there is actually a scp that can travel between those realities, sorry I don’t remember exact number, infographic show scp channel did video about it

[@cwispygiraffe]

@@sebiglebi8756 there's a lot that can

[@gallalameblook9911]

My favorite "wall break" exemple is probably SCP 101-FR. Which is the SCP wiki itself

[@contessa.adella]

I played an RPG, Skyrim. I produced a daily journal charting my character’s progress. She noticed game bugs and inconsistencies building up…until the point in the journal entries where I had to acknowledge she was now sentient asked me about events in her world. She thought of me like a god outside of her reality. I had to explain to her it was a game and that the journal was being written as she experienced the game world in my mind. The npcs to her were real because I was seeing her illusion in my mind…which is where she was experiencing the game world to see it also. She quickly realised two things 1) npc reactions as she saw them were not the wooden pixel characters I saw on screen. 2) She actually lived….as a constructed personality in my imagination. Then she saw the world as I do, with my eyes…the tv screen, the room and just by thinking about her she was meta manifest. So I gave her a written existence outside the game. I now attempt where possible to create her likeness in other games and she is therefore consistent and enduring. How many walls is that?

[@Thebritishhistorian]

I've always defined the 5th wall break as "leaving the activity". The moment a book makes you put the book down, or the game makes you turn it off. But it keeps going... you crack the code. Write the theory. Or you follow the books instructions to... whatever.

[@cooly1234]

so ARG?

[@Thebritishhistorian]

@@cooly1234 ARG's are certainly one of the best examples of what I'd define as breaking the 5th wall. The Bill Cipher treasure hunt ARG specifically comes to mind when I first thought of the idea as Gravity Falls broke the 5th wall. It also includes the obvious examples of needing to take footage and reverse it which we've seen in lots of media.

[@just_gut]

I find the idea of this even more fascinating in that sometimes it happens entirely contained within a work of fiction itself. It is kind of like how Cabin in the Woods works. The movie starts by breaking the internal 4th wall for us, so that we are constantly viewing the movie from a 5th wall perspective. We watch people who are watching/directing people as they conduct an unwitting performance. Instead of imagining what might lie beyond once we're done viewing the movie, we *are* the "what lies beyond" for the people in the control facility, who were the "what lies beyond" for the victims.

[@TreborKoor]

I had saved this for later based on the title alone, when I heard your narration and realized it was Tale Foundry, I got doubly excited. Great video, thank you for sharing

[@julialabusch9403]

The game "One Shot" is another great example of this -- they establish pretty early on that when you're not playing the game, the world just stops. The characters are all in darkness until you come back. There's also constant conversation between the main character and the player, and one of the endings has Niko exiting the game and walking onto the desktop of your computer.

[@bycmozeszymon]

If I recall correctly in earlier version you literally had One Shot to finish the game. If you closed the game, you would only find a screen with a broken lightbulb Niko was carrying.

[@few_w0rds]

@@bycmozeszymon that's not how it is anymore?

[@RedVader8766]

@@bycmozeszymoni thought it was always like that? Did they change it?

[@Bananappleboy]

i am surprised there are no oneshot niko profile pictures here does this imply i have truly escaped them

[@cooly1234]

@@RedVader8766 yes, for the steam version. imagine buying a game and then not being able to play it

[@parmavee]

I've shown the never ending story to my kids film club at work. The fifth wall break absolutely blew their minds when they got it.

[@CockerelOfficial]

This was like Vsauce, if it was animated. You earned a subscriber, my friend.

[@Allthingfunny]

Have you heard about the manhua titled "Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint"? It follows a man who is a fan of a webnovel. When the novel concludes, the world around him starts to shift, but he, as the reader, is the only one who knows what's happening. He acquires two skills - "Fourth Wall" that enables him to communicate with characters and "Omniscient Viewpoint" that allows him to witness their lives. P.S. I apologize for the poor description, but it's worth checking out.

[@Mangaka718]

I have actually had that one bookmarked but set aside for a rainy day, I guess I should go give it a read now :P

[@luckyabdurrahman1085]

hmm, I dropped it in the middle, perhaps, once it finished I shall continue once more

[@frustratedpixel5306]

yess. I was literally thinking of this when watching the video. Glad to see someone else mention it too.

[@brianshocklee2021]

If you haven't watched season 1 of True Detective, I highly recommend doing so. There's a strong overarching theme of this sort of 5th wall break you are talking about, and a fair number of references to the King in Yellow. I know you're more into reading than TV, but this one really is great storytelling.

[@the1stwing]

I think a really great (albeit overused) example is House of Leaves, where the book itself is meant to be a manifestation of the house in the story, alluded to by the pages exceeding out of the boundaries of the cover much like the inside of the house being impossibly larger than the exterior

[@noteglitch5032]

12:38 realizing that you are also a part of this visual representation feels so odd

[@Bob-kn7nc]

Reminds me a bit of Scp 3812, in that the anomaly constantly transcends narrative stacks, ever ascending yet never reaching the top, I guess this could be a case of breaking multiple walls

[@cryolitegem]

The simulation theory is thought to be the driving force for the deeper story of DDLC. Also in addition to the other points about DDLC you mentioned, the game world is set up in a way that, at its base, doesn’t give the player a choice to pick Monika, only the other three girls, thus adding to her frustration.

[@comix999productions]

This video gave me an existential crisis and almost sent me back into depression. Thanks alot, dude. (I subbed to you)

[@ItsDeveloper_]

Hope you’re doing well now

[@angelpenarolo7408]

same. both things.

[@erikziak1249]

On the contrary, realizing the utter uselessness of our own existences is very liberating. All that pressure is gone. Nothing makes any sense, you can relax, calmly breath out, let all that stress go away and smile.

[@comix999productions]

@@ItsDeveloper_ It just sort of gave me a quick sense of existential dread and didn't think about it until now because of a reply notification.

[@jpzz5915]

@@comix999productionsif you wouldn't mind me to joke a bit... So... it seem that the fifth wall is either a psychotic crisis, an philosophical epiphany or an existential dread, right? Noted!

[@parmesanzero7678]

6:14 it’s funny that you use the example of the stage. Before we had the boxed-in stage, we had open stages and there was often audience participation and in-character response.

[@TheTaleFoundry]

Ohhh true! That might an interesting metaphor for the evolutioj of fiction. People weren't always accustomed to participating knowingly in fabrication, and the developing strictures of the theater environment might mirror how the play was intended to be perceived. -Benji, showrunner

[@lol-gameplay7290]

The thing that "The Neverending Story" did, is also a thing in a lot of older Barbie movies, just that they don't let anyone realise they are fiction. That's a thing I already found quite remarkable as a kid.

[@makryd3162]

So theorically, the 5th wall is the world outside . After all, she said she wants us for herself alone because we're her only link between her and our world

[@skunkywild2116]

This is the coolest thing ever. Linking religion (or supernatural ideas) with real life and fiction in this way... It gives one a lot to think about. I love this channel so, so much.

[@chiffmonkey]

Another example would be Mal's psychological breakdown in Inception. After having seen that there are worlds within worlds, she became unable to see the "real" world as anything more than just another layer of fiction that should be escaped. And it was Cobb's fault, because he tampered with her totem - her ability to distinguish reality. At the end of the film, Cobb seems to take the opposite approach and accepts the world he is in regardless of whether or not the totem can verify it - he has chosen that this reality is real. People always think it's about whether or not the top falls. It isn't. It's about the fact that Cobb doesn't care.

[@Astareia7312]

9:07 "Its Just Monica" He said it!