The Paradox of Time Travel Paradoxes

[@siraaron4462]

There actually is a paradox in majora's mask, because some of Link's actions carry over into subsequent loops, even if he doesn't do it again

[@acacacacacacaccaca7666]

Magic vs science. It's not meant to make sense because magic is not meant to be completely understood, otherwise it's sience

[@siraaron4462]

@@acacacacacacaccaca7666 I don't deny that, but Talebot claimed it was "so simple it couldn't possibly contain a paradox" even if you hand-wave it as magic that statement would be false.

[@JaimeNyx15]

I'd call that less a paradox and more expediency. The devs were likely well aware that having the player do every single thing over and over again would be tedious, so my impression was they let Link avoid doing certain "solved" things on subsequent runthroughs.

[@nehpets216]

You have the Mask that went back in time with you that IS that person's spirit, so since you took them back with you at the same time the stuff that you changed Has to happen even without Your interaction. So it does make a certain amount of sense if "Magic" can balance out paradox

[@siraaron4462]

I already said this once, but since that was an @mention I'll say it one last time for the rest of you. I understand that it can be justified and hand waved as magic, or a game mechanic - but the truth is the statement "so simple, it couldn't possibly contain a paradox" Is objectively false.

[@d1gitalsonder]

i always thought the idea of “just don’t change anything and it’ll be fine and you’ll return to base reality” really strange. that’s why i like rick and morty so much. because even if you are able to travel to the past or future or another dimension, and “not change anything”, you’ve already changed something by simply arriving. your arrival in and of itself is changing something because it wasn't supposed to happen because you don’t exist there in this form.

[@TheTaleFoundry]

Time travel is such a zany idea, period. Every time you think you're getting away with some rule structure for it, someone pokes a hole in it, it's just too easy Love your handle btw! Giving swamp witch energy lol -Benji, showrunner

[@d1gitalsonder]

@@TheTaleFoundry thank you!! love your channel

[@Watcher1134]

@@TheTaleFoundry In Marvel's What If? an alternate Stephen Strange loses his lover christine instead of loosing his hands. The story progresses similar to the OG Strange movie but after he defeats Dormamuu he tries to use he Time Stone to save Christine but it doesn't work. Because her death was an Absolute Point in time and started him on a path to learn magic, what ever he tried she died either from a car crasg, armed robbery or heart attack. This Could serve as a counter to the grandfather paradox. If you tried to kill your grand father or change the course of events in a way that resulted in you not going back in time, something would always get in your way.

[@XANSEM]

@@Watcher1134similar plot in the Time Machine Movie. After a mugger kills Alexander’s fiancée Emma, he devotes himself to building a time machine that will allow him to travel back in time to save her. After completing the machine in 1903, he travels back to 1899 and prevents her murder, only to see her killed again when a carriage frightens the horses of another vehicle. He realizes that any attempt to save Emma will result in her death through other circumstances.

[@darkgenics]

​@@XANSEM it's as if it's predetermined to happen, like the person's death is always meant to happen even if you try to change it. Even if you did they'll die through other circumstances

[@mollywantshugs5944]

So thank you for making me realize that Flashpoint is basically about the hero causing a grandfather paradox and then fixing it with another grandfather paradox

[@salamandersharp]

is that celeste from hit indie platformer madeline

[@AtaraxianWist]

​@@salamandersharpThe Town Inside Me intensifies

[@matthewboire6843]

What’s “flashpoint”

[@itsgeegra]

​@@matthewboire6843a DC story where the Flash travels back in time to prevent his mother's murder, but time travel in DC is funny, changing an event in the past changes events forward and backward from that point (comics hah) so when he returns to the present the entire world is different, Bruce Wayne was killed so his father becomes a violent, murderous Batman and his mum becomes the Joker, there's an animated film that condenses the story pretty well

[@itsgeegra]

I should add, the Flash can run faster than light (and has access to a thing called the Speed Force, which is a dimension that's the manifestation of speed itself, comics are weird) so that's how he can travel through time

[@brainstorm006]

I love videos like these. Time Travelling is so confusing and complicated, yet its so much fun to learn about them.

[@firestorm1088]

This is why time travel stories make for good one offs, but become a problem if you use them too much for extended universes. It breaks too many rules, and eventually, the audience stops being invested because they know it’s just a matter of time before a plot point or character development they liked is erased.

[@ShawnRavenfire]

Like what happened with the Terminator movies. The first one gave us a simple bootstrap paradox. The second threw that away in favor of an alternate timeline scenario. By the third one, they were just kind of doing whatever with the timeline.

[@ShadowPhoenix82]

Or, don't erase them lol. Thats what alternate timelines are for. 😝 I had a player in my DnD campaign use a Wish scroll to travel back in time, trying to fix what he saw as a major mistake. We had a blast, and the consequences were that one player is playing two copies of himself and the wish player is being hunted by his past self because he stole his Wish scroll from him after his attempt to fix the past failed. Embrace paradox 😅

[@acacacacacacaccaca7666]

I would like to see a story were it isn't about the protagonist constantly tries to fix the time travel mistake but rather it's not something that's fixable I think that was the original idea of samurai jack that the story wasn't about him going back in time but rather slowly change from every interaction he had with the inhabitants of the future and realize that he should save the future instead

[@MiiDev69]

I think the Soul Reaver games pull off the time travel really well. If I am remembering correctly, anyone can use the time chamber to travel either to the future or the past. If you travel to the past hoping to make any changes, you will not succeed, the timeline is fixed and anything you do in the past is inconsequential as the timeline will fix itself and the main events will remain unchanged. The only way to truly change the timeline is when 2 Soul Reavers come into contact, and even this is incredibly hard to pull off because the timeline will try to ensure no changes take place. If one manages to successfully change the timeline, then the future as we know it will be completely erased and replaced by the new timeline. Now add the fact that everyone in the timeline is bound to it, regardless of the illusion of free will, everyone will do what are are meant to do. The only creature that comes close to have actual free will is Raziel being both the vampire champion and the hylden champion. It's an interesting lore. You should check it out, I recommend a channel called Strictly Fantasy and another one called RainaAudron they explain in detail the lore of this games.

[@alexzero3736]

​@@ShawnRavenfirewhat? Terminator 3 followed timeline strictly, sky net arrived and end of the world happened.

[@rakusoverthecoals861]

I always liked the Prisoner of Azkaban's time travel. It was a rare instance of the time travel having already taken place during the first pass of events, with the characters not realizing that they'd already effected the changes they wanted so they were still motivated to go through the motions later when it was their turn. Quite brilliant, really. The biggest plothole is just the meta question of WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU TRUST A HIGHSCHOOLER WITH THAT POWER!? Everything turned out all right in the end, but there's so many instances where it very easily could have gone horribly wrong. But the answer to that could just be the same one from the time travel episode of Gargoyles. "You COULD, but you WON'T, because you DIDN'T... Time travel's funny that way."

[@marvelsandals4228]

Maybe Dumbledore via magic discovered that the sanctity of the future depended on Hermione keeping that time travel device. If he tried to take it away, he would be changing history in a negative way somehow lol

[@gamefoun]

​@@marvelsandals4228the point is that the time turners can't change the past

​@@marvelsandals4228check out HPMoR (Harry Potter and Methods of Rationality)! It's awesome!

[@ginnyjollykidd]

​ Dumbledore had to have traveled forward in time not just once but several times. That's how he knew first that two lives might be saved (which means he had to have traveled forward in at least 2 instances), second how far back in time to go. (three turns; three hours)

[@ginnyjollykidd]

Unless Dumbledore is an expert in scrying. (It was hinted at in _Fantastic Beasts Secrets of Dumbledore.)

[@Ph4ntomHourGlass]

Bill and Ted taking advantage of the free will paradox to help themselves out in the present by in the future going to the past is such a genius idea.

[@Roadiedave]

From the first time I saw it, I wondered if they actually had to go back and drop the keys since they already had them. You wouldn't have to remember to drop the keys there since you already dropped the keys there.

[@alexzero3736]

Senator McComb did the same in Time Patrol

[@CandyChaos7]

Excellent!

[@elfieblue3175]

@@Roadiedave Probably did have to remember. When they were breaking everyone out of the county jail Ted had lines like: "Remember the garbage can!" As a note to his future self to set up the escape plan after the fact.

[@sockatoo_]

my dad forced me to watch Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure a while back and it was genuinely the most fun i'd ever had watching a movie. i personally thins it's one of the best takes on time travel ever.

[@lolglolblol]

Primer and Dark have got to be two of the most airtightly written time travel stories ever.

[@iCarus_A]

Stalled is one of my personal favorite as well, though it does introduce some fantastical elements

[@danspector740]

Dark is on the next level of storytelling, truly

[@WarrenF19]

I was waiting to see if anyone mentioned Primer. It's one of my favorite time travel movies.

[@tylerdusseau842]

Thankkkkkkk you 😬😬 dark is my fav TV series of all time and easily the best time travel use I ever seen such a wild great fucking story 🔥

[@Albtraum_TDDC]

@@WarrenF19 yeah Primer is very good, despite the low budget. My favorite too.

[@t1mast3r7]

How am I not seeing more people mention how that animation of the robot hand reaching for an opening the book was SO good! That caught me so off guard how good it was and definitely deserves some talking about. What a raise in production value. lol

[@diegorincon4673]

Holy shit you’re right

[@intergalactic92]

I see it mentioned at least once in basically every video.

[@aiiiia9971]

It's been in a few videos now but it really does look so awesome

[@RTWLR]

You guys always know exactly what I need to watch. This was totally excellent because I’m trying to reinvent the concept of meddling with time in one of my stories. In this case, what I’m trying to do is revive a dead character without nullifying the tear-jerking heart and soul of the tragedy story they’re part. When another character can’t accept their death, they try going back in time to undo it and resurrect them only to find that it’s an absolute moment and they just have to move on with their life. Also, I don’t think you covered the concept of an absolute moment

[@ElliotFW]

One thing you missed: In the closed loop model of time travel, the future is also subject to paradoxes as the time traveller’s knowledge of it would either allow them to prevent it (which prevents itself, causing a grandfather paradox) or it would ensure it happens (bootstrap paradox)

[@NaoyaYami]

It's not how it works though. In closed loops, there's only one future path (usually) that won't come until certain conditions in the present loop are present (otherwise the loop will reset). So while there's a bit of branching futures, it's only for as long as the loop lasts and then it will either continue (loop is in the correct state at the end) or reset (some conditions are not met). No paradoxes here.

[@alexzero3736]

​@@NaoyaYamiwatch Donnie Darko, you ll see.

[@NaoyaYami]

@@alexzero3736 Jsut because there might be one work that includes a similar concept doesn't mean it uses typical time loop specifically. Of course in a time loop someone keeps remembering stuff, otherwise there'd be no point. Of course those agents do affect how the time loop plays out but again but that's almost always the point - to have those agents manipulate time loop in such a way that it finally ends in a certain state so that time can move on. If an agent can travel to a point such that they can prevent the loop itself it means they escaped the loop in the first place. It's a LOOP. It has no beginning or end. You can only break (out of) the cycle.

[@drtaverner]

Steins;Gate blew me away with its writing, artwork, animation, premise, etc... It's a work of art. It creates so much tension, and pays it off. So good!

[@TheRezro]

Best part is when one character come back from dark future to stop people who cause it. It find out that they were not super-villains, but weirdos who didn't know what they are doing. Lol

[@drtaverner]

@@TheRezro Just a dude with a soldering iron and a magic microwave.

[@kenmasters2025]

It basically rips off time machine

[@upanishaderna]

My biggest problem with the time turners in Harry Potter is not so much the resulting paradox, but rather the fact that this power exists in the universe at all, and in such an easily accessible form. In a universe filled with potentially plot breaking abilities, the time turner is the most powerful of them all. Anyone with a time turner essentially has real life plot armor - they can get out of any trouble by the fact that their looped back self will always be there to help them out, armed with the knowledge of what is going to happen and the certainty that they will succeed. And how is this power used? So Hermione can take extra classes.

[@ringo567]

I think the time Turner Hermione used has a 24 hour limitation. Also she had to get special permissions to use one. Since the wizards are still studying how time works, the time Turner are locked away deep inside the department of mysteries. Only the "unspeakables" are allowed to enter. Bad guys would have a hard time getting in.

[@maraudershields283]

This is my main gripe with time travel in fiction; essentially anytime it is introduced to a world that didn’t previously have it and not handled with care. Often times it get convolutedly removed from the story by way of “oh it got destroyed, and the guy who built it died, and all of his notes burnt” and just comes of as a lazy way of fixing things moving forward.

[@TheBladd]

If you die before you can use it it's pretty useless.

[@WaterShowsProd]

Dumbldore knew what he was doing when he allowed Hermione to have it. She needed the practice before being able to put it to the use he knew they were going to need. How he knew, that's another question entirely. Dumbledore also sent Harry his father's invisibility cloak (not explicitly divulged in the films, exposed in the books). One could argue that it was his by right, but still Dumbledore made that decision to give Harry something he could easily break rules with.

[@MrDaveWhitney]

The time travel in HP is the predestination form. The hint is when Dumbledore suggests to Hermione that perhaps two innocent lives may be saved. Buckbeak was already saved, but the kids (and the viewer/reader) don't know that. Dumbledore figured out what happened and then made the suggestion to Hermione to use the time-turner. Another hint was during the "first time around", Hermione hears the twig snap and spins around to just get a glimpse of her future self looking at her. So, I don't see the time turners as powerful at all. Any use of them already occurred and the user isn't changing anything. It's why nobody goes back in time far enough to just stop Tom Riddle when he was a kid.

[@InformantNet]

Chuck Berry wasn't on stage with Marty, it was his cousin, Marvin Berry, and Chuck was on the phone. In the "revised past," Marty was the source of the song, but Chuck still wrote it in the original timeline. So this wasn't really the bootstrap paradox.

[@bazzfromthebackground3696]

One of the best paradoxes is Fry becoming his own grandfather. It's a throw-away joke they casually call back to.

[@ma-moomoo]

Or causally call back to

[@Tom.Tomlet.T.Tomington]

⁠or casually call back to

[@LoneTiger]

This quote belongs here: Fry: _"It's impossible! I mean, if she's my grandmother, who's my grandfather?"_ Farnsworth: _"Isn't it obvious?"_ [Fry shakes his head.] "_You are!"_

[@cowabunghole]

He *did* do the nasty in the pasty

[@stm7810]

it's not a paradox, that episode has self consistant physics, all of them do, futurama is a deterministic universe we observe the same thing IRL in the quantum eraser experiment.

[@sinisternorimaki]

I really love the way Doctor Who handles all of this. For starters, most paradoxes work on the asumption that time is linear. But that's just the way we humans perceive it. Like the Doctor puts it, "it's more of a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff". So a lot of paradoxes are only paradoxes from our limited viewpoint and comprehension of existance. Then there's that time the Master builds a paradox machine from the Tardis in order to let a grandfather paradox happen. And of course, the whole thing about time being fluid *but* with fixed points.

[@italex827]

One of the most literal yet subversive examples of the grandfather paradox is in Futurama. Where Fry accidentally kills his grandfather and sleeps with his grandmother and becomes his own grandfather.

[@EndoScorpion]

And it's this event that causes the anomaly in his brain which explains why, in an earlier episode, he was able to resist the mind control of the floating brains invading Earth.

[@katherineheasley6196]

@@EndoScorpion his past nastification!

[@Gainoffuntion]

Came here for this. I did do the nasty in the pasty

[@Antasma1]

Or does this count as a bootstrap and/or free will paradox?

[@EndoScorpion]

@@Antasma1 Both I'd say. Especially where he stops Nibbler from knocking his chair and tipping him into the cryo pod... but then tips himself anyway.

[@Laplace089]

I recently had an experience with creating a temporal paradox and it was really fun, in my case it was in a tabletop RPG, in short the players went to a place where they could incarnate in the skin of a person in the past, they had to get an item that only existed in the past, taking that item to the same place they are now but in the past so that they can get that item in the future, it turns out that the things they did in the past ended up making the place they are gained the ability to travel through time, that is, they would only be able to travel to the past because they themselves created this place to go back in time in the past.

[@fedewyt]

My favorite time travel paradox instance is in Attack on Titan, where the protagonist doesn't physically travel to the past, but his dad in the past can see the memory of the protagonist being there in the future, since the protagonist entered his dad's memories (it's very difficult to explain, but it makes sense, that's what makes it so cool). It's not only a great way of "time travel" but the paradox ties in really well to the themes of the story itself that talks about never-ending cycle of violence.

[@aratakiittolover22]

Yesss! Aots time travel paradox is so cool imo. But I also think that it would fall under the free will paradox, or a predestined universe. Because everything Eren did in the story had to have happened, so that the future could be what it is now (hence Eren seeing what his dad did to the Reiss family when he kissed historias hand, while his future self being the exact reason why they’re dead)

[@alexzero3736]

That's too unreal, sounds more like pure imagination then travel.

[@Antasma1]

He performs an example of the bootstrap paradox and free will paradox

[@elfieblue3175]

I didn't know vul nut wine existed outside of the Discworld...

[@brandonlyon730]

I’m personally not big on AOT’s introduction to time travel since it just makes plot holes and makes Eren look really stupid, like the fact he was indirectly the cause of his own mom’s death.

[@Ivy-Tellers]

another game that has some kind of time travel elements is Undertale, The save and reset options are actually part of the story with only a few characters being somewhat aware that you can manipulate time, and other characters having sorta deja-vus of things you told them in previous playthroughs, the time travel is rather quite limited in its own unique way because only one person at a given time has that power and you can only go back either to a previous "save point" (which idk if it's just a game mechanic or whatnot) when you die, or you go back to the first time you gained that power in the first place, and it's also connected to selfishness because the more you use the power the more you see the people as "characters in a videogame" (yes there is another character in the game that describes the power in that way, but telling more would give some spoilers so i won't do that) and that really fits the theme of questioning your morals that Undertale kinda has.

[@freddypowell7292]

The "free will paradox" (which to be quite frank is pretty much the exact opposite of a paradox) is by far the most interesting to me. It's certainly the hardest for an author to pull off, since they have to keep track of all the potential consequences of each event, but if everything fits together in the end then it is incredibly impressive and highly satisfying. This is what you have in Tenet, and also in the tv series Dark.

[@ronarscorruption]

It's called a paradox not because the events themselves are paradoxes, but because the reasoning is a paradox. If you decide to change the future because you discovered that you changed the future, is that you deciding, or was that always going to be the case? It's a lot like a bootstrap paradox where information comes from nowhere: if you're making a decision based on knowledge you obtain in the future, is that your decision?

[@eliljeho]

What makes you think we have free will? Talk to Robert Salposki.

[@PedroTorres-ky2yx]

@@eliljeho do you trust your own reasoning? Or is it not your own? And if that's the case, who's is it?

[@PedroTorres-ky2yx]

@@ronarscorruption knowledge of one's own future limits choice completely, making the choice no longer a choice, but a determined fact, like past ones. So in that case I would say you no longer have free will, because ignorance about your future decisions are what give you possibilities to chose from.

[@Gnulcho]

Did my comment just get auto-deleted? well i'll try to not use words that might trigger it then; Dirk Gently's also has something like that.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Schlock Mercenary had a really good answer to paradoxes. To summarise: they happen, and it's not actually that big a deal. They don't make sense *logically* (because paradoxes are inherently illogical) but the biggest paradox is that the universe can't be bothered by paradoxes, because if it was, we wouldn't have a universe. It's honestly a fascinating take. And Schlock Mercenary is just *so* good.

[@TheRezro]

In non-linear Time Theory Cause may exist outside the timeline. The big problem in this case is that time travel make you separate from the time itself. Because your original timeline do not exist. This is usually good solution when show focus on the time travel plots. General rule of thumb is to not do time-travel if you don't have to, because even minor incident fundamentally change nature of the narrative. When it happen once, it become a option all the time.

[@johnchesterfield9726]

This is similar to a thought I once had. Basically, every worldview has to have certain facts that don’t have an explanation for their existence, otherwise, there would be an infinite regress of explanations. These kinds of facts are called *brute facts.* The existence of the universe may be an example of one. Those who believe in the existence of God would simply go one step further, but they would still think that the existence of God Himself is a brute fact. So, if brute facts is admitted into our worldviews, then why not something like the bootstrap paradox? In the case where Marty plays Johnny B. Goode because he heard it in the future from Chuck Berry, and him playing it in the past gives Chuck Berry the idea to create the song in the first place so that Marty can hear it in the future and go back in time to repeat the cycle, when the question is asked: so where did the song come from? The answer is this causal loop is just a brute fact! Marty hears the song that causes him to go back in time and be responsible for the existence of the song he hears in the future. The song really does just exist to be part of this causal loop, and that’s all there is to it. Sure, it _sounds_ strange and unsatisfying. But no stranger and unsatisfying than the fact that _the universe (or God, if that’s what you believe) exists at all!_ So why not can this strange causal loop be a brute fact of existence?

[@rocklee7737]

My favourite example of the Bootstrap Paradox is in Milo Murphy's Law. Basically while trying to return to the present in the future, a peach is thrown at the protagonists to be alerted to the presence of a patrol that they need to avoid. They keep the peach, and in a later episode they return to that same place in that same point in time, and use the peach to warn their past selves. The origin of the peach is so confusing that the characters take a moment to try and understand how they got the peach in the first place.

[@ptolemyhenson6838]

Then this concept comes back later in the show where Milo has to write his past self a note.

[@matthewgallaway3675]

That was my first thought too

[@axthelm]

I love how the cartoon Gargoyles did the Bootstrap paradox with the Archmage in the Avalon part 2 episode. He saves himself, teaches himself how to get his power, then tells his newly powered self to go save himself while the original goes forward in time. It is clean, wraps itself up, and a great way to explain time travel. His dialog to himself is "Do you know what you need to do?" "I should, I watched you do it."

[@Blessom]

I'm in the process of creating a novel and I started thinking about time travel within my novel and randomly received this notification.

[@JTZombiE]

the writer gods have bestowed you a gift of wisdom

[@Private-Potato]

@@JTZombiEthe writer gods have been generous today.

[@hunterwillis3775]

It knows...

[@Secret_Moon]

Are you sure someone isn't reading this comment, goes back in time and influences the creation of youtube algorithm so that it would give you this notification?

[@SÀN-D-MAN]

Coincidence perhaps,or a ....

[@charemchavrutah]

I think the Harry Potter moment works because of the character growth the Free Will Paradox facilitates in Harry. As a victim of abuse, and acute childhood trauma, Harry struggles with his confidence. He doesn’t believe that fighting off dementors is something he can do. When he realizes though that the timeline had decreed that he’d done it already, all his doubts in that moment vanish, and we get a rare glimpse of Harry’s true potential.

[@Warrior-Of-Virtue]

One idea I had for how you could "bend" the laws of time is that while traveling through time, you would temporarily exist outside of time until the moment you return to your proper time. This would make you exempt from the laws of causality so that any changes you made wouldn't affect you personally, allowing you to avoid things like the Grandfather Paradox.

[@ronarscorruption]

I think a lot of stories do this, and it's great. It's a lot like how Wylie Coyote doesn't fall until after he realizes he's run off the cliff. It's also why in back to the future, Marty doesn't cease to exist the moment he gets between his parents. It's like time has intertia, and it's preparing to change but isn't changing yet

[@heliumcalcium396]

"Ripples in the Dirac Sea"

[@tyranmcgrathmnkklkl]

So only when you return you die?

[@ShawnRavenfire]

@@tyranmcgrathmnkklkl I think when you return, you would be more like an "alien" to this timeline, where you remember your own past, but no one else does.

[@vergil1us]

Kinda like that Stephen King novel 11.22.63

[@aidenaune7008]

the "free will" paradox is one that I have never understood, or rather never understood why others cant understand it. just because the thing you do is already known doesnt mean you dont have a choice, all it means is you cant change your choice, or rather, information about your choice doesnt alter what choice you make. a good way to imagine it is to first change how you imagine time. instead of it writing as you go through it, imagine it as being prerecorded and you are traveling through it. after all, how could time be affected by time? how could it write at a linear rate based on the passage of itself? if you think about it this way, as all moments occurring simultaneously and you simply just experiencing them linearly, then it makes a lot more sense. any and all information your past self got from their future self was already existant in the future self before they went to the past, no new information can be passed along, and as such no new alteration can occur. you have free will because you get to make the choice, its just that the universe already knows what choice you made, because it is only you who experiences time.

[@christinatoo801]

I'm shocked by how barely anyone has mentioned Steins;Gate, since its time travel plot is quite complex. I watched it in 8th grade and remember having actual headaches trying to wrap my head around everything. It's an amazing example of complex time travel but sadly no one seems to recognize that :')

[@gabrote42]

Nobody mentioned Homestuck either. I would love to take a look at that one. Is Chaos;Head required reading?

[@PatelVishal1616]

​​​@@gabrote42 You can read/watch Steins;Gate without reading Chaos;head, though if you do plan to read chaos;head make sure to read the noah version with the Committee of Zero patch Edit: I watched steins;gate first and reading Chaos;head noah right now

[@loading3238]

I’ve watched Steins;Gate at least 5 times now and it’s still extremely enjoyable every time. On top of the amazing implementation of time travel, the exploration of the damage to one’s psyche is just icing on the cake. It’s phenomenal

[@donsolos]

Steins gate is a bucket of hot ass that's why nobody mentioned it

[@alternateworldline]

Seriously! Dark and Steins;Gate are truly my favourites.

[@grepgrok8735]

I really love the "outside of time" idea. It is often that there is one small space outside of time where people can meet across times and timelines. But what I always find so interesting about them is how certain characters just accept it as a fact of life while others are understandably bewildered as to how you can open a door, turn around, and find a once occupied room empty. The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern does some very interesting stuff with this (which is almost framed tragically given how you can often predict the truth before it happens) and The Magicians show has a few plot points related to it

[@MASTEROFEVIL]

What's the book about?

[@Feirho123]

As a man obsessed with time travel and the paradox and thoughts it creates I love this video

[@Bacon2000.]

The answer is the free will paradox it's the most scientific

[@The-Scaredy-Ghost-777]

I am so glad you took my idea to create a video! But I am sad you did not talk about the book I mentioned 'Time Travelling with a hamster'. Please mention it sometime. It's the best time Travelling book ever!

[@TheTaleFoundry]

We didn't take your idea. We decided on this by ourselves. :)

[@Vritzien]

Another really great game that deals with time travel and paradoxes is Outer Wilds. It’s a fantastic game in general, and I refuse to spoil the core story for you all, but akin to Majora’s Mask, the protagonist is stuck in a 22 minute time loop which always ends in the Sun going supernova (in which the only thing you retain is what you’ve learned) and must explore their solar system to unlock the mysteries within. While not about temporal paradoxes per ce, you have the ability to destroy the fabric of spacetime through such paradoxes, including the ability to have a conversation with yourself on the nature of the grandfather paradox. Fantastic game, straight 10/10, would experience the existential terror again.

[@AzureKyle]

One of my favorite depictions of the bootstrap paradox is the original Final Fantasy. It all starts with fighting the first boss, and goes until the end of the game, where you find out that the first boss, is the final boss. Because he was sent to the past by the four fiends, became Chaos, and sent the four fiends to the future to send himself into the past to become Chaos. The heroes break the loop by destroying the fiends in the present, finding the portal to the past in the Old Chaos Shrine, going back to the past, defeating the four fiends in the past, and defeating Chaos, which causes the end of the paradox, and time fixes itself to where none of it ever happened, and nobody knows the Warriors of Light, or what they did to save the world.

[@firegater8540]

I recently watched Tenet. The inverted time chamber is probably one of the most confusing use of time travel in any movie I watched because you can actually see your future self traveling into the past and interacting with the world in reverse. This is because from your POV, your future self is going backwards in time until you both go in the time chamber at the same time. Now that you are in reverse, you see your past self seemingly still going backwards in time but now the entire world is going in reverse. You will then see yourself looking at you from the past in the same way you did but in reverse. Your past self would appear as if he already knew you were there and after that, he would look like he never knew you existed until you find a new time chamber to pull you and the other you back in time. Creating a perfect loop of events 🤯 anyway, its a good movie. 😅

[@jantschierschky3461]

Good movie ? Well to me it is a very confusing, disorganised mess. Made no sense on so many levels

[@maraudershields283]

Did I miss something, but I thought it wasn’t a loop, but instead 3 instances of yourself; A and C moving forward in time, while B is A moving in reverse to become C?

[@jantschierschky3461]

@@maraudershields283 I doubt anyone can make sense of that nonsense. I believe the writers were on a crack binge.

[@LineOfThy]

@@jantschierschky3461orrrrr maybe you didn’t get it?

[@jantschierschky3461]

@@LineOfThy well I got it somehow, but is a crap movie

[@rarebeeph1783]

personally, i don't see the bootstrap paradox (and by extension the paradox of free will) as much of a paradox at all. or, rather, it's a veridical paradox from the perspective of the characters, a counterintuitive truth. although there never was a source of the loop, it exists, and is consistent with itself and everything else around it. one might question how the information in the loop doesn't decay due to entropy, but it's an empirical fact that it didn't, and so it doesn't. on the other hand, the grandfather paradox is much more damning without additional mechanisms: it is logically self-inconsistent, an antinomy. the simplest resolution to this inconsistency is that time travel inherently creates alternate timelines; another may be that grandfather paradoxes in particular create "twin" timelines in bootstrapped loops with each other.

[@apollohazelmyer4581]

Glad I'm early, just wanted to say that I really love your channel. Your voice plays the part wonderfully, and the creativity of you and your team is what keeps me coming back. Thanks for putting out quality content!

[@Wowreally42]

I absolutely LOVE finding channels like this. High, high quality! Thank you!

[@SagittariusSisyphus]

Dark also has an interesting take on time travel. And it's one of the few where the "fix" looks blievable

[@EvilAng3la]

Definitely - the bootstrap paradox turned to 11, and set up in a great way. Might be my favorite time travel story ever.

[@kevinnavarro402]

The bootstrap paradox is not really a paradox, if you look at it from Novikov’s self-consistency conjecture. Novikov was a Soviet physicist. I don’t understand why people act like it’s not something that can be taken seriously. Oh, it’s fine, some say, that we know it happens on the quantum scale, but when it clashes with their ordinary philosophical preconceptions on a larger scale, that’s where they draw the line? And that’s supposed to be pragmatic?

[@EvilAng3la]

@@kevinnavarro402 I would agree that it's not really a paradox if it's self-consistent. It's only that it doesn't fit our understanding and expectation of how time works. But any sort of bootstrap "paradox" does force a change in how we view time and the laws of physics. I'd also argue that there is a fundamental difference in the meaning of self-consistent cause-effect cycles, like becoming one's own ancestor, and origin-less constructions, like a book or a device. The former could be conceived of as just causal structures outside of our standard space-time expectations. The latter imply some sort of creative mechanism that exists external to the system, and is unaccounted for within the structure of the story.

[@kevinnavarro402]

@@EvilAng3la If your examples are taken from Dark, if I recall correctly, these may not be terrible spoilers, but the book and device both were constructed by people, however, they were constructed based on themselves, so they have no author nor inventor respectively, which is not fundamentally dissimilar to a part of a self-ancestor’s DNA, which was replicated from self-originating information. Whatever anyone believes, at some point, there needs to be something that self-originates or exists without origin, whether that’s the Universe or anything the Universe originates from.

[@EvilAng3la]

@@kevinnavarro402 The difference is that a self-ancestor isn't creating the entire DNA string from scratch. The processes of reproduction are understood and work fine even in this scenario. But for a completely constructed object, it's not the same. How would a well-written book, or operational mechanical device, just come into existence?

[@themustachioedfish5988]

I like how Kingdom Hearts handles it's time travel (outside of timeless river and when Sora said "file 1 loaded,") where it's similar to Harry Potter, but the villains are actually planning around it. Xehanort's whole scheme is several bootstrap paradoxes in a trench coat. At one point, two characters even ponder what happens when a book is written about the future, and then, using that knowledge, you proceed to change the future.

[@kaimagnus5760]

The Harry Potter example is what I like to call a "Closed Time Loop" where the future continues past the point where the loop started because the people who went back also went back to the same point and progressed forward. So the loop, rather than a paradox, is simply a point where Past, Present, and Future become briefly muddled but still loops back to liniar time after it recloses. This really only works when the time travel is a "one-way trip" so to speak. The video game Final Fantasy 14 ended up doing something similar at one point but it was less clean since the channel connecting the past and present is still opened due to gameplay reasons.

[@gabrote42]

Homestuck uses and abuses the notion dozens of times as well. I think those are just called Stable-Time loops tho

[@ringo567]

I was writing a story and when I explained it to my friend I also called the time travel a "closed loop" saying I took inspiration from HP

[@Will_Morand]

One of my favorite uses of time travel is in Re:Zero. The main character, Natsuki Subaru, upon being forced into a new world, is given an ability he calls “Return by death”, where when he dies, he returns to an earlier point in time that gets reset occasionally that lets him solve an issue with new knowledge of events taking place. Though some of these events do cause him to have to kill himself in order to reset everything, and it’s suggested in the second season that all these resets exist in a still-continuing timeline and the moral implications of killing himself in one timeline to make a new timeline that helps him achieve a goal he wants.

[@yuvaln.6592]

5:50 there is also a simple explanation, chuck berry created the song in the original timeline, he was about to create it in the new timeline and marty just finished the job chuck berry would eventually finish himself, in the new timeline the song is the same, only came out few months/years earlier It's like if someone throws a ball to the bottom of a well, younger me sees the ball in the bottom of the well, i go back in time, take the ball and throw it to the well, younger me still sees a ball in the bottom of the well, he doesn't know or care who threw the ball in the well, all he knows is that when he arrived there was a ball in the bottom of a well Younger marty doesn't know who helped chuck berry write johnny b. goode, he only hears the song and knows chuck berry sings it

[@ElicBehexan]

Time travel. I love time travel. I write, I've been writing since I was a teen and, since I'll soon be 70 (it is early Sept 2023) it means I've been doing/thinking it for over 60 years. I became a Doctor Who fan - I mean, it combines both time and space travel what's not to like? - I wrote a Doctor Who fan story (fanfic.) Well, actually I wrote a bunch of them, but that's another matter all together, it was called "The Phoenix Egg." It was one, short bit that, at the end turned out to be a paradox. In this case, it was a paradox that was sort of a Bootstrap, but... I'm looking for a copy of the fanzine it was published in to retype it and put it online, I know I have copies of it. My best friend, who normally didn't have a lot of trouble with Doctor Who, but apparently hadn't seen the ending coming, absolutely balked when she first read the story. She HATED paradoxes, but that is what I love about time travel. I'm of the opinion that if a person travels to the past and does something, then it was meant to be done. In fact, in my stories, my original fiction stories, the one I start with is set in the future. So far, all the rest are set 'current' day, I put that in quotes because my earlier stories and stories I set earlier, are set in either the late 1960s or early 1970s and proceed chronologically. Well, I have one that is at the end set in the future, but it doesn't disrupt the chronological order, it is just done out of time for a reason. I have my first 7 stories up on AO3. I haven't had a lot of readers, but they are looking for fan stories. So far I have 26 stories there and, at this time, only 8 do not also contain my people. I have a 9th that is waiting for 'Halloween' to be posted, I have given it to a friend as part of her Halloween challenge. I don't think it will actually be published on Oct 31st, but I don't know. None of my Doctor Who stories are mixed; some of my Man From U.N.C.L.E. aren't either. I know one doesn't look like it, but... hey, it is my universe, I can do what I want with it.

[@eloquentornot]

Doctor Who is centred around a time machine, but often just uses it as a tool to get to any historical or alien setting for a story of any genre, but sometimes it explores the concepts of the time travel itself and it's always really interesting and fun! The show has been going for so long and with so many spinoffs and different writers that there basically isn't really a canon timeline of events anymore, with part of that being justified in events like the Last Great Time War and the Big Bang having to happen again after the TARDIS exploded and destroyed time, and I'm sure that the overall story of the whole franchise is only ever going to get more complicated. Generally there's a rule of "time can be rewritten unless there's a fixed point in time involved" where time travel can change events in the past, with TARDIS crew remembering the original timeline thus subtly implying imo that they jumped to an alternate timeline, except sometimes that doesn't fit like there was one episode where the Doctor explained to Amy that she could remember people who'd been erased from history by the weird alien energy because she had travelled in the TARDIS but also when it happened to her fiance Rory she forgot him because it was such a big change in her own personal timeline for him to have never existed, but then again that was the weird energy of that storyline rather than anyone going back in time so maybe it doesn't count, and for the fixed points it generally does cause a Grandfather Paradox if they try to change them, sometimes bringing Reapers who kill anyone involved in hurting time (in one episode) and sometimes just breaking time entirely causing a weird bubble timeline (iirc this also only happened once) and so on, and the Bootstrap Paradox happens a lot and was even brought up by name in one episode, generally Doctor Who is a fun mess, definitely on the "don't think about it too much" side of things except for when the whole fun of the episode or season is thinking about it and working out what happened...

[@dragonballz5600]

Doctor Who has been running for so long that contradictions are impossible but most of them are explained using timetravel.

[@AlleonoriCat]

I do love that monologue Capaldi's Doctor are giving us through a fourth wall about the bootstrap paradox. I just thought about that while watching this video

[@furrystarcat]

"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it’s more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff."

[@alexzero3736]

In that context Quantum Leap series is much better example, main hero travels in time against his will and tries to change the past, kill Hitler, save Kennedy, etc.

[@dragonballz5600]

@@AlleonoriCat That was an amazing monologue.

[@ajumlas5401]

I'm a fan of Homestuck's time travel-ish system. Especially with Lord English, The Felt, paradox babies, and time players in general.

[@JaimeNyx15]

Glad Steins;Gate got the shoutout. Definitely still my favorite take on time travel, and a great story all around.

[@callumanderson6373]

Have you heard of the book Recursion, by Blake Crouch? It has a pretty similar style of time travel and I think it's a pretty interesting read

[@JaimeNyx15]

@@callumanderson6373 I haven't! Thanks for the recommendation.

[@callumanderson6373]

Thinking about steins gate and recursion is making me realize how much "expectation subversion" media there is and how hard it is to give a synopsis of it. I think the worst example is Doki Doki literature club, where there is probably very little overlap between the type of person that would enjoy the facade the game presents and the actual content of the game. But the actual content of the game is best when it takes you by surprise, so how do you sell someone on it without at least slightly ruining the experience? I'd argue that even seeing the psychological horror tag on steam and seeing the content warning when it boots up is enough to somewhat dampen the experience. This is kinda how steins;gate felt to me. Like I probably would have enjoyed watching it more if I was blindsided when things took a turn for the worse, but I also probably wouldn't have made it through the first 12 episodes to get to that point.

[@nise6699]

​@@callumanderson6373I watched stein's gate surprised the first time tbh. I think the best way to advertise it without spoiling it is using vague genres like supernatural and whatnot, giving them expectations that it's akin to time travel and then brute force them to watch it til they're invested. They will thank you for it. Difference between Stein's;Gate and DDLC is DDLC's main problem, the usage of the genre or the narrative. Stein's;Gate transition from amateur scientists experimenting to conspiracies with adverse effects from meddling with time is smooth and subvert expectations without ridding a genre. Unlike DDLC, where the dating part is out the moment the horror comes so it's just a horror game disguised as a dating sim. They should've at least made a few endings and few routes for dating, idc if it'd be a bad ending

[@MrRy4all]

@@callumanderson6373d😊 tr

[@matteste]

Sad no mention of Legacy of Kain given how important time travel and paradoxes are to the plot. And then there is the ending of Madoka Magica where the main character basically has to create a giant paradox to get anything resembling a happy ending.

[@OhBoyILoveTomatoes]

As someone who uses Nubula, it’s so worth a shot! The price is crazy reasonable, and there’s so much thoughtful content

[@balic07]

It was Marvin Berry, Chuck Berry’s cousin, who was there and heard the song. Marvin called Chuck while Marty was playing the song and held the phone out and said, “You know that new sound you’ve been looking for, well listen to this!”

[@garyboyles5762]

Gotta say, this new intro is phenomenal!

[@juanausensi499]

There is another way to avoid paradoxes, that i haven't seen used much. I'm calling it 'subjective timeline'. It's similar to the branching multiverse situation, but there are no branches arising from decisions, instead every observer lives in his own personal branch. When people aren't time travelling, their individual branches are almost identical so they think they live in a shared timeline. All the laws of physics are true for each observer, and consecuences always follow the causes. If one travelled to the past and killed his grandfather, nothing would happen from his own perspective (the only one he has access to). Because there are no 'ripple' effects at all, his existence wouldn't be compromised: in his subjective timeline, he was already born, and nothing can change that. You don't change 'the' past, you don't change 'your' past, you just keep having new experiences, perfectly ordered in time, it's just that when you time travel, those new experiences happen in a universe that looks, to you, like the past. The brother this person had, who is not time travelling, would not see nothing unusual, either. From his perspective, his grandfather is alive and well. In this model, what we know as the objective universe is, in fact, subjective (but ruled by ojbective laws), but that's only evident when time travelling. It is not known if a real objective universe exists, and if it does, how it works. It is not known if the grandfather in the 'present' and the murdered grandfather in the 'past' are the same person or not, and it's not even known if the question itself is valid.

[@TimPoultney]

My favourite form of The Freewill Paradox is the entire saga of Raziel in Soul Reaver -- the universe does abhor a paradox, after all, especially a walking one being flipped like a coin by up to around five other characters (Kain, The Elder God, Mobius, Vorador and the universe itself)

[@alexzero3736]

What they actually change?

[@TimPoultney]

​@@alexzero3736There's a lot about fate and predetermined outcomes in The Legacy of Kain; Things have been in motion for hundreds of not thousands and will happen as such no matter how hard you try to escape it. Kain finds this out the hard way I'm Blood Omen and devoted his unlife and rule to finding a way to escape his own ending. Enter Raziel, who is seemingly destined to kill Kain, so Kain goads him toward that outcome knowing Raziel will try to defy Kain out of spite. He manages to succeed, but then the universe itself changes to incorporate the change, which seems to terrify Kain, as if he hadn't ever considered something like that would happen. In the end, Raziel kills Kain, as was prophesied, but a picture only tells a moment of a story, and it wasn't the ending. It's about two opposing characters working toward the same end; to truly have freewill over their stories and how they end. Kain wants to be free of predestination and Raziel IS free of it (as noted by many characters) but ends up being pushed down the paths he could choose to not to anyway.

[@TheDeplorableNeanderthal]

You can’t time travel without space travel… a few seconds in the past to the same location would leave you floating in the darkness of space or hit by whatever now occupies the spot where earth was a few seconds ago.

[@TheArtofKAS]

"Paradoxes are just part of the fun" is probably the best way justify most stories that involve time travel in general. Most people in the stories will ask questions about whether or not they should actually time travel or not and those malls questions lead to the more compelling pieces of conflict that the characters could ever face even before they end up time traveling. With that in mind, many times I will stores could be seen as a type of psychological Thriller because of the fear of making a mistake or even possibly destroying your entire family lineage because you killed your grandfather or great grandfather

[@disguisedpuppy]

Doaremon does a pretty good job at explaining paradoxes sometimes, Accordingly, If a person travels to the future and see whats going to happen to him, be it as mundane as falling in the gutter, he might try to prevent it, but however In the process, trying to avoid any gutters, just might fall in one accidentally

[@dandyspacedandy]

homestuck has the most fascinating depiction of time travel in my opinion, where eventually the concept of time travel interweaves with the concept of moving back through the _story_ line rather than the timeline, creating canonical retcons that are somehow free from the messiness of paradoxes while being way more confusing. in a way it feels like a linear story's answer to a videogame like undertale treating saving and loading as time travel.

[@totallynotasupervillain9896]

Finally someone mentions Undertale I thought he was going to talk about it when he mentioned saving and loading but...

[@TheAyanamiRei]

There's 2 Ways to prevent Paradoxes: Ecery Change = Branch Universe (Back to The Future 2) OR Time = Loop (12 Momkeys) where trying to Change the Past, CREATES The Unwanted Future

[@nyperold7530]

The "Endless Eight" arc in The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya sees the main characters in a time loop of summer vacation. While the light novel The Rampage of Haruhi Suzumiya only shows us the final iteration, the anime expanded it to the first iteration and six others (out of over 15 thousand) in between, as well as the final. Comparing them shows us all sorts of little differences, like where Kyon and his sister are during the baseball game, the characters' choice of swimwear and yukatas, the layout of Haruhi's list, and so on. The main characters (except Haruhi) seem to sense impressions of past iterations... except (also) Yuki, who remembers them all perfectly. Of course, only the final iteration shows them doing what they need to do to break out of the loop.

[@vergil1us]

That blew my mind when Yuki just casually said the number of "times" they did almost exactly the same thing. No matter how people may moan about the anime (I know there is a light novel but my first time seeing the story was through anime) that this is "the same" episode made 8 times - it's one of my most favorite episodes of anime of all time. Thank you for reminding me this and maybe I'll rewatch it soon. Also I need to pick up light novels once again.

[@vergil1us]

Also, "Mirai Nikki" or "Future Diary" has a cool twist so I recommend it.

[@Michael-sb8jf]

​@vergil1us I don't know what would be worse Yuki reliving a 2 week period of time or Bill Murray's character from groundhogs day reliving one day

[@BobMcBobJr]

An interesting way to think about freewill and bootstrap paradoxes is this: If we copy a person down to the atom, with all the same memories, experience, personality ... etc. and put them both into a perfectly identical situation would the two make the same choice every time? The answer is yes, because they are the same person and nothing external or internal is different even their memories. This is exactly what happens with the freewill paradox (which is essentially a subset of bootstrap paradoxes) in the two people being replace by two loops of the one person. It may be destined to happen but, at the same time, it does not necessarily contradict freewill. Take the choice being examined as the choice to go back in time in the first place. Whatever the reason you had to go back in time, even if it was only because you knew that you WOULD go back in time, that same reason is still there for you to go back in time this time so you find your self in the exact same scenario as the version of you before you including, mind you, the knowledge that the version before you went back in time (provided either of you have that information). If you intend to be a contrarian and not go back in time then, well, the previous versions would have intended that as well and this situation wouldn't happen in the first place. The timeline is directly due to your choices it's more that you just already made the choice. By being the person that you are the world is as it is. in that regard it is the same as normal linear time. The world operates on cause and effect where a person's personality is both, forged by past experience and genetics and a driver of the future actions of that person. What you choose to eat for breakfast depends on your previous experiences of breakfast foods but you still choose what you want to eat. You will just make the same choice without any new experiences to go off of.

[@SpammingY]

I never thought I'd see Zelda Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask in a time travel paradox video, but it does make sense, and I'm all for it!

[@artblob]

zeldas lore timeline deeply embraces this concept. in case you dont know it yet, look up the zelda timeline

[@thatotherted3555]

The TV series of _12 Monkeys_ introduces a sort of _grandmother_ paradox in its concluding arc. It's pretty great.

[@jessi9435]

I see what you did there 😄

[@Master214.]

I heard that series has some similarities to Dark, which is also a really great show and handles time travel really well

[@swanceva]

Love that one

[@easilybored]

Great overview of time travel stories in general! Reminds me of one movie I'm not sure in which category it fits, I forgot the name. The movie is about a boy that had blackouts of memory loss growing up, which is why he started diaries. Later when he got older he starts remembering again by reading the books. He relives those moments and each of those moments he actually changes the present. I think it's a cool take on the time-travel genre.

[@heliumcalcium396]

"Butterfly Effect"?

[@easilybored]

@@heliumcalcium396 yes, that was the name!

[@harjitkumar917]

first time to watch in this channel. i was stunned with the intro's animation, it's so beautifully made. why in the world this channel's still below 1M subs is beyond me. kudos to the team who made these awesome vids happen

[@aliceDarts]

I have covid atm, and your soothing voice is helping the vertigo. I have been subscribed to your videos for the past 6 years and your videos have never dissapointed. Thank you so so much!

[@fryingpanda]

Final fantasy xiii-2 story is what got me into paradoxes haha it's really wild! I love that series

[@sgommerable]

Actually, the band in BTTF is fronted by Marvin Berry who calls Chuck on the phone to expose him to Marty's playing

[@TheTaleFoundry]

We're aware. It's a technical detail that would have conveyed nothing and made the script harder to listen to. -Benji, showrunner

[@sgommerable]

@@TheTaleFoundry I was just being of "those" watchers. BTW new fan of the channel

[@briez9648]

​@@TheTaleFoundryBULLS#!T. Its 100% relevant. Don't disregard your incompetence and call it a technicality. Its giving low key racism. You just called him a thief.

[@desiv1170]

​@@briez9648Yeah, saying they knew it was wrong, but decided that leaving incorrect information in the vid to make the point would be really bad. Basically saying sometimes they knowingly lie to prove their point. Probably better to just admit they got it wrong.

[@xanderbaskey9689]

It's always struck out to me that people always get split timelines and the multiverse confused, while different universes in the multiverse can have split timelines the two things aren't normally connected as you'd have an infinite number of people with an infinite number of variants that are the same and an infinite number of variants that are drastically different from one another, if you were to multiply every possibility together you'd fill infinity with the sheer size of it all

[@CogWeaver]

In my opinion, the current absolute best exploration of pretty much every time travel trope yet concocted in media by far has to be the show Twelve Monkeys (not to be mistaken for the movie of the same title and premise). In 4 seasons, the story covers and answers many of the issues raised with parallel timelines, time loops, "grandfathers", bootstraps, freewill, and much more, all while remaining coherent and satisfying to the viewer even if they were to start "overthinking" the potential paradoxes. Especially since paradoxes are an existent thing in-universe that are depicted in an intuitive way: as explosions of energy that can cause damage to Time itself in the same way a physical explosion can cause damage to physical objects in space. Plus the writing and characters are excellent, so even if you're not the biggest fan of time travel it's still a very fun and engaging watch that I highly recommend.

[@erikziak1249]

Never heard of that show, I just know the movie. I must check the show out.

[@casinodelonge]

yes, it was a really decent show, I sort of lost track of it a little towards the end though.

[@tfc1193]

I've always thought to myself this: any and all examples of a paradox are either hypothetical or some form of philosophical exercise. We don't have any examples of real life paradoxes. Which might be reality preventing it somehow. So if paradoxes could happen through time travel I'm thinking that reality would somehow not "allow" it, or it would just self-correct somehow. Like by you time traveling, you actually create a copy universe and interact with that one, not your own

[@nheimi99]

Back to the future is actually of the split timeline variety. Doc even highlights this on a chalkboard.

[@enderborn017]

I always though the solution to the Bootstrap Paradox is something along the lines of person A causes an event, which triggers person B to go back in time and cause the same event in their place, causing future person B to go back in time and continue the loop. Meaning Chuck was going to write the song anyway. Marty's performance just changed the circumstances of it's creation.

[@genericname42]

My favorite paradox is the phrase "keep moving forward" in meet the robbinsons. Because it has a solution to where the phrase came from the universe itself telling the characters to keep moving and don't fuck around in the past.

[@ShockArcl1te]

The problem with the grandfather paradox is that it tries to have it both ways. Either the chain extends to you going back in a time machine in the first place, meaning the trip was predetermined as was the murder plot and nothing will happen to upset that loop or the alternative is that it doesn't extend to you because you're an anomaly in the past. If you don't belong there, just showing up has already severed you from the chain of events, and killing your grandfather will only be one of hundreds of things you change by being there. You can't assume you can change something and *also* assume that change will chase you down. You're either part of a closed loop or you're not, you don't get to break the loop and also suffer casualty from the same event.

[@stevenwodstrchill4003]

Is there such a cool video thank you tail foundry you inspired me to write and work on one of my OCs that I’m still working on and this is so interesting

[@TheBlindDyslexic]

Granted it's Time Loop, but the 4th Doctor and 2nd Romana were trapped within a Chronic Hysteresis in the story "Meglos". Where upon the Only way of breaking it, was Repeating one's actions Prior to reaching the starting point.

[@TheGuy-gw1hc]

im surprised you didnt talk about the Legacy Of Kain series, i think it has one of the best tellings of time travel in media

[@justinsinke2088]

Part of the trick with paradoxes is that it also runs under the general assumption that time is a purely linear thing, and then getting quirky by being someone on the line you're not supposed to be. A generally reasonable assumption given our experience with time, but the nature of "what is a paradox?" shifts if you view the nature of time from a different perspective. If, for instance, the reality of time is that everything in reality has already happened, and time is just where our consciousness is at the particular moment (like reality were a movie that's already been filmed), then the free will paradox isn't so much a paradox as it is just how things work; the past included your future self because the future was already something that existed to go back and do the thing. Now granted I'll admit that interpretation of time is essentially predestination in that you can't change the outcome of anything because your learning of the past/future was already a part of the timeline and as such your reaction to learning it isn't a change, but the status quo. This in tern is contrasted by the spit timeline/multiverse approach, where in theory every decision that could ever have been made was made in some timeline, just maybe not the one you're currently in (Back to the Future 2 actually centered around that interpretation of time and getting back to their own timeline and off the created branch). So for any time travel plot, an author must also consider how they view time itself to work along with how the time travel is possible.

[@toastydream]

This video is fantastic. I really love stories that incorporate time travel because, as you said, it is interesting and fun. Chrono Trigger is another great game that does fun stuff with the concept, hard recommend to anyone.

[@yoonyiachang1390]

i have a dnd world which is entirely homebrew, i tried to make a interesting version of the egg theory and timelines and just how time works in general and i think what i came up with is pretty smart. There are people who are apart of the god (if you know the egg theory youll understand) and those who are not. When someone who isnt apart of the god goes back in time and changes something people that are apart of the god are replaced with a basically alternate timeline. so basically think of time as a really long pipe thats growing, you can damaged the pipe in a different area as long as it has been installed and if its damaged enough itll be replaced. i thought it was a fun way of showing the laws of time and how deals with gods that go along the lines of "i want my entire life to have been happy" (which was a wish of one of the player characters) would work without paradoxes.

[@Asodym]

my problem with a lot of time travel in stories is that, by its fundamental properties, it can't be used to (altruistically) solve problems. I'll look at this with the three main ways of doing time travel: self contained timelines like in Harry Potter, branching timelines like in Steins;Gate, and a variation of branching timelines where when a new future is created, the old future is destroyed. Video games with only one save file fit this description and also Back to The Future based on its ending (I'm not entirely sure though, that film was difficult to understand). Lets say the world is in peril and you want to fix everything. In method one, you can't save the world because you have already gone back and yet the problem hasn't been solved. In method two, you can create a new timeline where everything is good but that other timeline still exists and you abandoned it. Method three has the same problems as method two with the added touch of genociding everyone in the other timeline. I will add, however, that If an individual only cares about themself, then method two and three work completely fine. Determination in Undertale works this way and since it has this element of selfishness baked into it, anyone in the story who uses determination to solve their problems becomes more and more selfish with time.

[@alexzero3736]

You can't cook omlet not breaking the eggs. That's exactly what main hero of Steins Gate trying to do. Like most popular theme about time travel fix is killing Hitler, still a murder.

[@joshwokojance3790]

My problem with the way time travel is depicted is that usually the person going back in time basically pops up in the same spot where they left. The problem is that the earth is moving around the sun and the solar system is traveling around the galaxy. So chances are that the person traveling around in time would likely pop up in the middle of space.

[@Asodym]

@@joshwokojance3790 Special relativity states that velocity is relative so the whole thing about moving through space shouldn't be a problem. However, special relativity does not say the same about acceleration, which includes rotation, so that is a problem. Really, all of this can be solved by just saying the Time machine accounts for the rotation of the earth, which to be fair implies ground breaking momentum manipulation, but if the machine has enough energy to break causality, it probably has enough energy to screw with momentum.

[@alexzero3736]

@@joshwokojance3790 pfft, just add GPS to time machine.

[@joshwokojance3790]

@@alexzero3736 smh. Of course. Why did no one ever come up with this solution. So simple and elegant. Lol

[@dataweaver]

This is closely related to stories about prophecies or precognition, even though they don't actually deal with time travel _per se:_ bringing information about the future into the present creates the same sorts of paradoxes, and most of the same solutions. A Grandfather Paradox in this context becomes “what happens if you see visions of a future and then succeed in preventing it?” Why would you get a vision of the future if that future never happens? And conversely, what if the only reason that the future _happens_ is directly because of your actions in response to your visions of that future? That's the predestination paradox.

[@sleepykittyMMD]

I think sysfy’s 12 monkeys had all 3 of these that it confuzzled my brain at times. For anyone who hasn’t seen it, the spoiler free version is that at least one main character would not exist without saving their mother from an event in the future that sent them back to kill themselves without killing themselves… and none of that would’ve happened without that character existing to be able to invent and be one of the first to time travel due to their genetics being shared by their future, past, dead but alive in time travel self- WHAT!?

[@Master214.]

I haven't watched 12 monkey's yet, but I saw it getting recommended in a video I watched about Netflix's Dark which said it has some similarities time travelwise, and from your comment it sounds just as complicated o.o

[@TheSwiftFalcon]

In the very serious work "Red Dwarf", there was one time travel story which stuck with me: that of Dave Lister being his own father, travelling back in time to put himself where he was found as a baby. The curious thing about it, if I recall correctly, is that he created the loop intentionally, to ensure that some remainder of humankind would always exist within it. If so, that could imply that the loop was started by Lister changing the *cause* of events, rather than the outcomes.

[@whiskylover1973]

You are correct, he realizes he is his own father. Then he goes back in time to create what he describes as a "holding pattern" to preserve humanity

[@MrocnyZbik]

Movie "Predestination" was an amazing piece which whole story was based on Time Travel Paradox.

[@YanickaQuilt]

That one was something alright 😳😳😳

[@tabularasa0606]

Yes brilliant movie.

[@rinoakirova1548]

Steins;Gate fun fact. While not directly explained in the series, Mayuri's unavoidable death is simply a natural result of the time travel system they work with. Okabe's time machine lets information travel in time (be it a text message or someone's consciousness), which creates multiple story branches. But Suzuha's time machine transports matter through time and space, which is very different and doesn't allow the traveler to "move" between timelines. The reason Mayuri always dies is because of Suzuha's presence in Okabe's era. Their theory of time doesn't allow for cognitive paradoxes. Suzuha comes from a future where Mayuri is dead, so by staying in the "past" that timeline gets connected to the pre-determined future - There does not exist a way for Mayuri to survive in the present if Suzuha already knows she will die. Time paradoxes are very fun, but it's even cooler when time travel stories can make perfect logical sense within their established rules, that's why I love Steins;Gate.

[@istvankeri6688]

Holy shit that makes so much sense! While Steins Gate and Steins Gate 0 are my favorite animes, and after multiple rewatches I think I understand almost everything in a way that makes sense, I always just blindly accepted the fact that Mayuri dies as just some universal constant. But future Suzuha being the reason she dies makes so much sense and also makes the story better in my opinion.

[@rinoakirova1548]

@@istvankeri6688 Yes, I thought the same for a long time, but after playing the visual novel and rewatching the anime, it struck me as odd that Mayuri's death was the only unexplained event. I came to the realization because, to reach the Steins;Gate timeline, Okabe had to witness Kurisu's fake death - Because in that future, Okabe thought Kurisu was dead, thus if he never saw her dead it would be impossible to reach that future. It also explains the weird scene when Mayuri gets kidnapped and then Okabe finds a newspaper from the past reporting her death (which appeared like a minute after the kidnapping, clearly not long enough for SERN to even bring Mayuri into their base). Upon getting captured, Mayuri's fate was already unchangeable there, so the timeline changed instead. If you get the chance, I'd suggest watching the anime again with this theory in mind!

[@bloodystatic4156]

Time travel is one of my absolute favorite tropes in fiction!

[@stibiumowl]

1:01+13:00+15:18+15:49 Well said. 7:35 Good definiton of word "paradox" 9:22 Time loops not cause paradox is most interesting fact I learned about time travel so far. 10:00 He thought us how to actual time travel with any games with save-options. 19:06 Thx for encouragement of having own stories. Paradoxicaly, some of your Vids might inspire us, but I shouldn't watch to much of it as this might cause me of INVOLUNTARILY copy stuff I heard in your Vids. So I'll write only storys far from the last Vid I did watch from your chanel in the point of start-writing in time. Nontheless, learning that Timeloops are also Paradox-Free and I not have to assume timeline-split for Paradox-free into-past-travel could be very important.

[@thefisherking2268]

I’m surprised you didn’t mention Connie Willis’ Oxford Time Traveller series. It has a very interesting way of addressing time travel paradoxes, and a lot of its plots are about dealing with them and how deceptively easy they are to break

[@keithlehwald]

My favourite subversion of the free will paradox is in Beast Wars: Transformers of all things. The whole series follows descendants of the original Transformers who have been unknowingly sent back in time to a prehistoric Earth. In the episode “Code of Hero”, Dinobot learns that he is destined to save the ancestors of humankind at the cost of his own life, and then learns that the timeline is not fixed and the future can readily be changed apparently without creating a paradox. He then has to decide whether to die a hero or live and let humankind be strangled in its cradle. He solemnly chooses honour and duty, and proceeds to single-handedly fight and defeat the entire Predacon army while slowly breaking down. He finally dies surrounded by his allies and quoting Hamlet. Essentially, Dinobot is clearly shown to have had free will, and yet his own personal code of honour prevented him from making any other choice.

[@sebastienbusque2312]

I'm actually writing a fantasy series that has a time loop. In it, the fantasy world's history is in a bit of a time loop, with the different moments of a character's life being streamlined to a specific branch as the previous loops ended at that character's death. However, the loops grow longer every time, with the current story meant to be the very last loop. Currently, one character wants to break the cycle altogether but wants to do so by erasing it entirely. I wouldn't call it a paradox, but the video reminded me of it. The part that was a paradox was that an alternate version of the character - the one from the previous loop - tried to pull off a 'Grandfather Paradox' by going back in time, but not to kill someone in her family, but the person whose very existence led to the turmoil of the fantasy world.

[@TrueMetaPrince]

I ain't reading all at

[@Stickarms99]

Knowing you’re a Dark Souls appreciator, I thought I should point out that the Abysswalker DLC from the original Dark Souls would have fit this video perfectly! Its story entirely revolves around a paradox. Throughout the game, denizens of Lordon constantly recount the legendary story of Artorias the Abysswalker, a knight who, with his trusted wolf companion, Sif, traversed the growing magical realm of darkness known as the Abyss to stop its growth and save the town from its endless maw. According to the legend, he gave Sif his shield so he could escape, while he sacrificed his life to defeat Manus, Father of the Abyss. He’s looked up to as a hero by pretty much everyone who talks about him. But in the DLC, we’re taken back in time to the town of Oolicile during the crisis. There, we find that Artorias did *not* save the town; in fact, he succumbed to the Abyss before he could claim victory, and we’re forced to end his corrupted mind and body’s misery when we find him. We then save Sif ourselves, and finally we face Manus ourselves to succeed where Artorias had failed. Effectively meaning that the legend of the Abysswalker was actually about us the entire time, but no one knew. After we save Oolicile, we return to the present, where the legend of Artorias remains exactly as it was before we left. If we do all of this before we fight Sif, who’s a boss in the base game, we get a special cutscene where Sif actually recognizes our scent, understands that we are the ones who saved his life and avenged his master; and he howls at the moon in mourning, as he knows only one of us can leave this encounter alive. There are obviously time travel paradoxes galore in this storyline, but it doesn’t matter. It’s such an incredible, heartbreaking but also beautiful story. It feels so incredible, progressing through a world and learning all about this ancient story about this legendary hero; only to be taken back in time and become the hero from the legend. I’m almost a little disappointed that you didn’t talk about that at all haha

[@MysticalGoatKnight]

I think my favourite implication of Time Travel is from the Dragon Ball series. Like, basically.. While yes, the protag can go back in time and change the past, they end up forming a new timeline/universe instead of just altering the timeline they came from so.. Trunks' actions were, kinda, in vain.

[@marvelsandals4228]

Also, the version of Cell (a major antagonist in the series) that the main cast interacts with is from an alternate timeline (just like Trunks, the protag you mentioned), in which he stole the time machine used by the Trunks from his own timeline to travel to the same timeline Trunks did. Creating the time machine to "save" the past is the same action that put the past in danger. It also explores the folly of a time traveler feeling as tho they are an objective godlike figure who has all the information, when hypothetically other time travelers with more information than them are meddling behind the scenes

[@brandonlyon730]

It was probably doubtful this was what Toriyama originally had in mind (this is the same saga where he changed the main villains twice), considering Trunks when he first arrived, he tried his best to ensure that he would still be born which would imply his time travel would’ve directly affected the future and might prevent his existence. Course this would add a story problem where as long as his time machine remained intact there was nothing stopping him from going back to fix the Z fighters honestly really really stupid mistakes prior to that and remove any tension with the plot, so Toriyama made it now the parallel universe theory of time travel so such a thing can’t occur and ruin the story he’s trying to tell.

[@MysticalGoatKnight]

@@brandonlyon730 To be fair, Toriyama was the king of bullshitting his way through storytelling. Not much was actually fully planned out if planned out at all.

[@flynnryan]

with 800 comments it's likely been mentioned already, but it was Chuck's cousin that was there, and Chuck heard maybe the last half of it over the phone. But this was the alternate timeline Chuck, not Marty's original timeline which he left behind when his actions rippled forward.

[@FoxWithBrainDamage]

What about Pathfinder by Orson Scott Card? It embraces the paradoxes and has its own solutions to them. It’s a really good book!

[@zohn-yq6wx]

Time travel movies, Millennium, Back to the future, Doctor Who. But, what about Terminator 1 (1984) and Terminator 2 Judgment Day (1991). So why did skynet allow, let Kyle Reese to go back in time after the t-800 terminator in Terminator 1 (1984). Skynet could've destroyed the time machine immediately before John Connor arrived. Skynet knew that. It was never about John Connor or Kyle Reese or Sarah Connor. Skynet knew it's fate rest in the past. Skynet ordered it's t-800 terminator to allow itself to be destroyed on purpose, by Kyle Reese and Sarah Connor was never in any real danger from the t-800 terminator. Since the T-800 was programed, ordered by skynet to let itself be destroyed on purpose by Kyle Reese. And, as a result, found in latter times by Miles Bennett Dyson in Terminator 2 Judgment Day (1991). But who built skynet ? Miles Bennett Dyson only found the damaged cpu chip, he didn't build it, the cpu chip. He only found it. It was allready built. So who built skynet ? Did Miles Bennett Dyson or did skynet build skynet. Which one of these paradox can solve this riddle.

[@Riseofhistiry]

In my world it incorporates time travel freely, treating it as if it’s another timeline you can explore, not influencing your own. You become a sort of semi-god

[@humanmale1042]

WAS THAT JEREMY BEREMY

[@zvimur]

Yep. Bear in mind the ending of Season 2.

[@michaelmerrell8540]

The dot on the "i" breaks me.

[@zvimur]

@@michaelmerrell8540 What breaks Chidi, is the statement that bits of time exist separately from the general continuum. The line, while crooked, is continuous. The dot breaks the logic twice over.

[@seandremel337]

I’m also a huge fan of some of these once I found out what they were. Between the Terminator franchise of the Terminator inspiring the creator of Skynet in the past (and thus creating Terminators), as well as Doctor Who’s episode Blink, where the Doctor has to find people transported to the past to give messages to another person in the present to save him, and then the person gives the Doctor the information in his own past. Plus, we get the line “People assume time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a nonlinear, nonsubjective viewership, it’s more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff.”

[@marvelsandals4228]

Yep, the first two Terminator movies hinted at a ton of these paradoxes going on, like how John sent Kyle back in time where Kyle met his mom and became John's father, meaning if John didn't send Kyle back, he would never have existed. Also, "Skynet" (the AI responsible for the post-apocalyptic future) only exists because programmers found and were inspired by a computer chip from a machine Skynet sent back in time. Skynet only exists because Skynet established the seed that would lead to its creation via time travel. I will say I personally like to think Terminator 2 is the end of the story, since (by destroying all of the computer chips and associated data), the conditions necessary for Skynet to be created have been averted, and thus, the cycle has been broken, and the future has been changed once and for all. In Terminator 3 they suggest that the apocalypse is "fated" to occur and can't be prevented in spite of this, which is both illogical and annoying given it makes all of the heroes actions in vain.

[@Mastervitro]

There is no paradox because the past you travel to is actually your future

[@tasjourney7778]

I was thinking this!