Talion, the Kindly Lord won a tournament so lets do a deck tech

[@kennethritacco6959]

The Brain Freeze is in the deck because it can kill your opponents in combination with Bloodchief Ascension with 3 counters on it. In combination with Praetors Grasp to go get their Underworld Breach and then you can use the Breach to recast Praetors grasp to grab the LED. The brain freeze makes the deck over LED because it has more potential and synergy and allows you to fill your own yard rather quickly to set up the grasp stealing breach play.

[@craigrgriffin]

We added LED for the next tournament. You cannot pgrasp an LED to combo off. You have to use your own lotus petal or LED.

[@jimmyc1510]

​@craigrgriffin do you guys have a discord for Talion or brewing? I'd love to learn her!

[@Nooorrriii]

The top 4 of that tournament had 2 Talion’s it’s grossly underrated as a commander outside of certain circles who are woke to it. Congrats to the man Craig, tbh happy we did not play the finals lol. As a K’rrik player I have been enjoying it, especially since it channels a side of me people did not know I had. (I played exclusively control/midrange before I started playing cEDH last year)

[@cedhtv]

Yes! I a lot of the bad Talions are early performance. Like the first 10 entrys sarted Talion low. Now it has started to climb up more and more. And I think that because of skill. People are learing how to play Talion.

[@craigrgriffin]

For the record this was the other talion player in the top 4. And I think a lot of people grazed over that detail!

[@Nooorrriii]

@@craigrgriffin decks are similar but slightly different. Mainly mine involves a 1/3 flying rug 👀

[@craigrgriffin]

@@Nooorrriii I know I'm thinking about the rug tbh

[@Nooorrriii]

@@craigrgriffin the rug does work! It’s also a 1/3 flyer. I 100% have just swung the rug on a player I wanted to bleed out a little slower than the rest lol.

[@jinjagaming1719]

sakashima is one of the best cards. copying a talion and choosing a diff number (1 or 2) is almost a sure win as it really is a rhystic study in the command zone then

[@omeganova4332]

Yeah...but it costs FOUR 😂

[@rangodash]

Great analysis Mons, thank you. I definitely think this is more where dimir wants to be long term rather than very proactive strategies

[@renato_n.n]

Thanks for the video Mons. That meat hook reminded me that it would be cool to have a "boardwipe" tier list in cEDH. Usually people play just one or two boardwipes, but depending on the commander you might need more. I was thinking on testing meat hook in my Sauron as an additional way to clear enemy blockers

[@cedhtv]

meat hook is a decent card!

[@Nooorrriii]

I play Meathook in K’rrik. It’s my own secret sauce that I really enjoy (Tbh KntrellCL is the first to do it but he cut it)

[@PubStompMTG]

What do you think of Talion as a card in the 99? I've been testing it in my Atraxa and Tevesh/Kraum midrange deck. Though they're not tournament results, I feel like it's a great 99 card from experience

[@cedhtv]

I think Talion inside the 99 could be great. I don't know how good or so but I think it should be good.

[@nomad6174]

Lol, just sleeved up Talion a couple days ago. Guess its a good time for it!

[@cedhtv]

Perfect Timing.

[@the_breakfastclub]

Control Winter! 😁

[@craigrgriffin]

Thanks so much! I watch like all your videos!

[@craigrgriffin]

First reply, I copied the decklist from someone else (see deck notes, it was the lotus con list) and my list for this weekend does not include Vendillion Clique lol

[@craigrgriffin]

Counterbalance is a other card I'm sus on. I defend the malevolent hermit though. In long control games I like to play to the board more, and the backside just wins the game for you. A lot of other card choices are still in contention as well. Never played the deck before this weekend.

[@cedhtv]

First off: Big Congratz! I am happy to see Talion getting somewhere. malevolent hermit: I like that card to and I would like to defend it as well. But the problem I think it has is that. The good side is when it is casted from the grave. The front side isen't what you want. Like the backside is busted. So you need a way of getting it to the grave. Like discard it or whatever. And this commander dosen't naturally have that. Or well you can overdaw (that happens with this commander a lot I guess (Might change my mind now suddenly as I write this)). I would love to hear your thoughts on brain freeze. When I saw it I remeber you had praetors grasp. And then I thought you would have lions eye diamond. But you didn't. any comments? I am just curious.

[@craigrgriffin]

@cedhtv again I copied the list. I usually play like rog/tev or daretti turbo stax, so I was already 100% aware of the strength it poses for mulligan smoothing, and it's something I'll be trying out at ccs for sure. Between Mnemonic Betrayal (stuff their Breach line, make it mine), and p grasp (just take it early and play it when you have a window) lotus petal felt like enough (and it has been) but there is very little downside to playing LED. Brian freeze itself, I treat it less like the combo piece and more like a top deck tutor hate that I can win with later. I usually cast it on a tutor and let it sit in the graveyard. Everyone forgets it's their then I take a Breach and go off.

[@cedhtv]

I see. I will agree to that. Like brain freeze isent a dead card it is just not a great card.

[@Teknomahge]

Great video, I will use this to tweak my Talion build

[@kennethritacco6959]

Also, Muddle the Mixture is in the deck as a hedge to stax decks, more particularly Rule of Law effects. It allows you to tutor without using a “spell”

[@cedhtv]

This is true!

[@remy333]

Congrats Craig. Rad! 🎉

[@craigrgriffin]

Thanks!

[@Lesobix]

I'm running Vclick. It helps you hand check and remove interaction opponents. It helps you land thassas more consistently

[@omeganova4332]

I never liked it that much, but it's a cheeky combo with notion thief I guess

[@TripsAhoy]

Always love these videos. ❤❤❤

[@big_MONDO]

Hey Mons, love these videos! Just curious, what are you using as you null hypothesis for calculating the p-value?

[@cedhtv]

the Null Hypothesis (H0) states that there's no significant difference in average winrates between two player groups: 'WINS' (players who won games) and 'LOSS_DRAW' (players who lost or drew) in tournaments. H0 assumes that any winrate differences are likely due to random chance, not a real advantage. TWe try to statistical test checks if the data supports rejecting H0 and concluding a meaningful difference in winrates between these groups.

[@aaronwindham6065]

I'd be curious to know the win rates for decks that had single target removal, if you had to do it for each color maybe like three of the top single target removal, it at least be good to see who wins more with what

[@BAdCommander]

Dimir good stuff. Its strong. Faced it twice in path to the peak

[@lvletal]

The hardest thing Talion has to deal with from my experience is the actual tournament setting itself, I.e. tourneys at 75 min no turns is very difficult if you are seated with other reactive decks. It’s still new like you said so there is definitely a niche that is getting smoothed out

[@cedhtv]

This is were true! Controll decks in generall suffer from this.

[@Dubbios]

I think it will be interesting how this numbers looks now that 3 months has passed; and more people are trying Talion.

[@Vaderoid]

Mnemonic Betrayal has the added bonus of triggering an active Bloodchief Ascension. Wonder if it's worth exploring adding a Mindcrank, as you mentioned... but that's probably a dead draw most times

[@omeganova4332]

Yeah, mindcrank isn't great in the list

[@Bread_and_Roses]

Do you have a link to any of these stats? I would love to read through this spreadsheet or whatever you have

[@cedhtv]

I do post it on my discord for patreon onlys. But is there anything you want to know and I can look into it.

[@vatarants]

Why sheoldred ?? Is there any combo with it?

[@cedhtv]

No. It is just a hatebear.

[@Nooorrriii]

No, it’s just your opponents start having to make decisions to hinder their game plan/drain slowly just from draw for turn. Talion + Sheoldred + other drain (Rug of Smothering, Bloodchief’s Ascension, Bowmasters, copies of either the Talion or Sheoldred) oppress your opponent from casting spells and drawing excessive amounts of cards. Not to mention you’re drawing cards, you can drop The One Ring, Bloodchief’s on, you’re gaining life. The deck is really all about sitting behind a hand of interaction and draining your opponents. Usually your game plan is not dropping a fast Thoracle/Consult. One of my opponents in my semifinal pod told a guy after the game “She systematically tortured us the entire game” and this is with my Talion being draked, then Sheoldred, then another player Draking the Sheoldred after I got it back. I had to Otawara my Sheoldred back to my hand off his field in order to ensure he died before he got another turn.

[@Spluaks]

@@Nooorrriii Damn, I'm building a Talion cedh deck with the help of a friend to start on cedh and you overflow my hype with that haha. Now I know I got the right commander

[@bobthor9647]

Which number to pick with Talion ? 1 or 2 ? 🤔

[@cedhtv]

Mostly 1 but 2 sometimes.

[@RobertoBlanco232]

Can you look at The Ancient One? A 2 CMC Dimir Commander who, if you play an Eldrazi in the deck as discard fodder, wins you the game with infinite mana, surely has something going for it

[@cedhtv]

It definitely deserves a card review!

[@jelkojerbic7051]

How does that combo work?

[@cedhtv]

you can loop your deck. draw and discard a card with a eldrazi means you can draw the same cards over and over and cast the same spell over and over.

[@crossr1984]

Mons, sometimes it's like you read my mind. I got a Talion last night, and since then I've just been wondering, can I put it together? Let's see if I have the cards.

[@MrPhantomPC]

Counterbalance is pretty back breaking in my Shorikai humility list, I can see it being good here as well.

[@omeganova4332]

I have found it to be pretty bad in talion

[@Nooorrriii]

Personally imo you don’t need stax like that for Talion, things like Grafdiggers and Cursed Totem are all you need. You want your opponents to have some mana and put spells on the stax. The way I play it I punish my opponents via card draw, casting spells of (usually 1 or 2 cmc), creatures of that P/T, and just a lot of spells. I also punish people for not putting enough permanents on their board with things like Liliana’s Triumph, Dystopia and Sheoldred’s Edict. If people are not putting spells on the stack or tapping their mana, you’re not getting Talion triggers, you’re not triggering rhystic or mystic, you’re not doing Rug things, etc. you got to know how to give your opponents a short leash to let them have their own demise.

[@bgeda]

Another great video Mons, so glad we have you in the community to provide these breakdowns.

[@cedhtv]

Thank you! I is actually really fun doing this.

[@tefin420]

In normal edh the answer is basically always 2 when you cast him. Im curious if theres a number thats super strong to pick in cedh in general and if its close to the same.

[@dave_8600]

I could see 1 putting in work if there’s a lot of Green at the table and you get a t1 talion opening draw. Also, statistically I think 3 shows up enough in P/T to be a consideration for a later Talion. 2 still has huge edge tho.

[@om3n430]

Sound a bit under the weather..feel better mons! Best magic content bar none.

[@cedhtv]

You got me. I have had covid. I have started to feel better so I dicded to make this video. But now it dose hurt again.

[@psychevolvexrp777]

always choose 2

[@moxknight]

I am kinda dissapointed you just skipped aboleth spawn... the ability to flash it in, copy thassa's trigger then cast your own tainted/ demonic seems like it would be a point worth mentioning.... is it because you are avoiding theory in your video as it DOES inject some interpretation?