Talking Death Knight Talent Trees w/ Atlas, Dorki, MuffinCookie & Taeznak

[@Cr4cK41]

I could listen to max and dorki nerding out about anything for hours

[@kail_6019]

Me too i don't play DK still watch it

[@Slippz]

The wounds system is the poor man’s combo points, except they cant carry over to a new target. I also think they should get rid of it and focus on either a pet-heavy or disease build.

[@shaunybonny688]

These class talent tree deep dives are awesome. Hope to see every class here on Max’s channel.

[@Neatherheard]

Didnt expect my man muffin here, but very happy that he is! :D

[@kail_6019]

I Very like that feedback for all classes, waiting for more

[@danielolah3671]

It is objective to say dk has too few baseline compared to other revealed specs. DK has 9 baseline, 2 of which are NEVER useful (rune strike, pale horse), while rogues have 17, priests 15 and hunters 16. All of them get baseline mobility/buff/utility/cc/interupt or all of them, if I look at rogues. Basically that is why Atlas said we need 3 more points, because DK has to make up for the barebone baseline first before thinking about any meaningful choices. Also in the tree Rogue gets 2 strong defensives and an improved sprint (which is baseline for them ofc), while we need to go lower for AMS and even lower for D'sA, not to mention that in no world can we take that wraithwalk under that useless avoidance node. At least 3 more useful baseline spells for DKs and we can start to talk (rogue gets 2 stuns, hunter gets a trap, and priest gets a fear, so even baselining asphyx would be fair in comparison, but AMS, D'sA are a must, but Death Strike is comparable to Crimson Phial or Exhilaration so that too).

[@Daki140]

And frost dks have DMG not like Rogues sub will be death in DF + Frost DK not forget perma Slow help tanks a loot too kite + 12sec on kick now like shamans

[@danielolah3671]

@@Daki140 That is just tuning, we know nothing about that yet, so your statement is invalid, the number and value of the baseline abilities are an objective comparison. Rogues are great damage dealers historically, almost always brought to MDI and high end PVP. DKs, while have their ups are a much more rare breed. In raid yea, grip is invaluable on some bosses, but 99% of the time you can bring a Blood DK and be better off. In nathria rogues sucked but than again in S2 sub was on top, and it is strong now as well, check mythic Halondrus logs, you will find ALL 3 rogue specs almost at the top. FDK raid damage ATM is mainly cause of the tier set which we will lose, and the huge amount of AOE burst phase bosses, if a frost DK faces a single target or movement heavy boss it will drop to the bottom instantly. Also FDK will never be brought to MDI whatever happens, it is too prone to failure even on the highest level and also the tank needs to pull around the DK like crazy, that is why only UH DK got into MDIs in BFA and in S1 shadowlands, but rogue were there even more so in both seasons. Lastly one of the rogue specs will always be fine, while DKs had times when both DPS specs were underdogs in every content, like in S2.

[@imAddictedtomymusic]

I can't wait to see one of these for rogue. Getting three cov abilities seems kinda nutty

[@h4ckybg]

There is vod in his twitch channel if you cant wait for it to be uploaded. Even tho i dont play rogue i very much liked the talk;)

[@BasedChadman]

Sad dk gets only one too

[@kevingoon7688]

For me I hoped with Unholy that they'd kinda have a few different builds focused on different things. A wound build exploding for mass AOE, a big pet focused cleave build revolving around dark transformation, and then a more single target focused melee summoner type spec revolving around Summoning tons of pets like demonology Warlock. Idk.

[@Arkilliez]

problem is you NEED dark transformation for the AoE wound build, the target cap currently holds it back drastically.

[@BasedChadman]

Feel like this breakdown is going to be solid and address a lot of concerns as well as the great potential that we have.

[@Nicolas-fo8qd]

As a DK main I haven't had fun playing the spec since Legion launch. Enough with the pruning

[@kjellannn]

I think the FDK tree shud be what every classspec had. Meningfull picks and not wastefull points

[@chinaman1]

seems like devs for DK actually do play DK!

[@Lmwpitt]

Regarding Unholy... > Weird to want Unholy to be a DoT spec. In fact I'd say that Blood would be a good candidate for a DoT spec, with mitigation decision gameplay. > The 45 second gameplay loop feels pretty great imo; summoning a wave of ghouls is feels really good for the necromancers amongst us. > The GCD-by-GCD gameplay loop could be adjusted though; festering wounds could be more interesting, or have reasonable choices for divergence.

[@morasch0170]

As someone who plays 2 handed frost, i love this tree. I am using the "dead" lego of Koltira's currently and i genuinely love the way it works. I will say, i may be going DW next expac but for Single target stray away from breath and do DW Obliteration if it works out. If not, i do actually like the way breath looks on this tree and i will give it a look.

[@BasedChadman]

It needs the damage buff to be useful imo (Koltira's)

[@WorgenDeath]

The one thing in this I feel noone pointed out was that the blood tierset talent isn't actually nearly as good as the tierset we have because it extends based on runes spent instead of heartstrikes cast, meaning it doesn't scale with your rune weapons to give you 3x effectiveness.

[@TheBrutalshock]

Yeah cuz Is a tieraet, maybe they can make it so multiple talent points give you that effect. idk really, I'm looking at all of this very cautiously, hope the coming expa rocks.

[@WorgenDeath]

@@TheBrutalshock I made the comment because max made an off-handed comment at the start saying you'll get back the current playstyle fairly easily when that playstyle isn't coming back. I'm fine with it not coming back, but it gives the wrong impression to people that might not know about the change.

[@TheBrutalshock]

@@WorgenDeath fair enough bro, didn't want to upset you, hope you have a great week

[@Sodacacik]

but you will also be able to get the rune resets from the general dk tree? so not as good but not giga bad either`?

[@WorgenDeath]

@@Sodacacik Well the main difference is that you can only spend 2 runes per global at a maximum, whereas before you would effectively cast 3 heartstrikes in 1 global, so even if you had infinite resources (you don't) you'd still only extend by 2/3 of what you would previosuly extend it by per global. The big reason uptime is so good right now is because for every global you extend drw by 1.5 seconds, so by the duration of a global at 0% haste meaning that if you have a solid amount of haste you can cast things in-between heartstrikes and still keep it up for over a minute if you play well. Since max made this video they have made some changes to this talent, so we will have to see how they impact things once people have had some time to play the alpha.

[@EgeDai]

53:00 man that summarizes how bad unholy has felt since Denathrius

[@Spenn35]

I know Max isn't a PvP person but could we get one person in for the PvP side of things would be awesome

[@anthippo91]

Yep I think mez would’ve be great for the pvp side

[@hvedrungi]

I hate how mandatory breath is, I like playing oblit frost but I cant stand playing breath.

[@tomklemp894]

Love it, keep those Skill tree Talks Up, got sth. to look forward to tomorrow =), thanks

[@chachalepacha7]

Make unholy a necromancer / solo army build. Bursting X wound summons a ghoul for X time. Remove permanent pet. Make summon ghoul --> summon monstrosity / abomination as a burst cd for unholy DK. Gameplay loop is to summon a small army to bury people alive. :)

[@GravityDAD]

id reroll UH DK for this for sure

[@James_Johnson79]

I’d love to see something similar to the torghast power that just gives you infinite skeletal archers and mages, just balance it in such a way that it can be used single target and doesn’t mean you absolutely have to pull all the trash on every boss. Edit in: like add it in as a proc to death coil - one ghoul per X many coils.

[@Dilllll26]

No thanks, many of us don’t like retarded pets. UH uses a big 2hander, diseases, shadowmagic and strikes also, it was never a necromancer

[@serge2cool]

Great video and discussion! I think you could do with listening a bit more Max and the same for encouraging their opinions a bit more, at least in the start. Still, thanks for the upload, very informative

[@FlavorDaveOne]

One major Problem is that Improved Death Strike (+60% healing -10 runic power cost) is baseline right now for Frost and Unholy. Meaning you lose a shitton of defensive capabilities if you dont invest 3 points there... That sucks. Big time.

[@bobisadrummer]

Every spec is losing stuff we currently have baseline. The trade off though is we have the ability to grab multiple talents from current talent rows. So even though we're losing utility or defensive capabilities as baseline with these new trees, you're given the option of going with straight DPS talent upgrades in favor of skipping defensive/utility talents.

[@hayleyberry3437]

One thing i hate about unholy is the design of its "Gain/spend mechanic", instead of using runes to put wounds on a target and use the runic power you get to burst those wounds both festering and SS both cost runes, its runic power is a separate gimmick Dot/Pet/Wound it doesnt mash up!

[@davidmartindale4364]

But they do mash up? Festering wounds being popped generate runic power and using runic power triggers runic corruption which increases the number of runes you get letting you pop more festering wounds. It is a part of what makes unholy aoe fun. Big setups or sweeping claws into tons of wound pops with dnd into tons of epidemic spam.

[@kylesmith987]

Nice break down on the trees. My one big issue with this current iteration on the DK tree is the first talent point on each of the tress. To me it is completely antithetical to the entire purpose of a talent tree to have a mandatory point that you have to spend just to progress. These spells should all be baseline abilities if they are mandatory picks just to progress through the tree. The purpose of a talent tree is to introduce choice and player agency in how to build their character based on the type of content they want to do or the play style they want to play. I also agree with Max on the DK class tree that it is too theme oriented and it does not offer enough options down the tree to swap between the different branches of the tree. It feels a little to consolidated for a talent tree and doesn't feel like it offers up enough variability between the directions you take in the tree.

[@JeccoGaming]

LOVE TO SEE MUFFIN HERE

[@jakeywaykey]

I hope that Obliteration build is more viable with a Koltira buff for 2h playstyle. It should have better rune generation for obliterates to lean into it so that single target 2h is just better but yeah right now dual wield is just better. Why go for it when the maths says you're worse off for choosing it.

[@TimmyCollingwood]

I'd love for a blizzard Dev to sit in these and hear their thoughts and opinions

[@elbardo_lux]

If you have the 2 charges of empowered rune weapon and you're with an outlaw rogue that reduces its cd, you could possibly get more than one instance where you use it twice back to back during a boss fight.

[@Malacine]

I was really happy when 2H Frost Death Knights returned, played it exclusively during my brief sessions with SL. I didn't do raiding or M+ content, but I'd still like to see it be in line with DW Frost. I definitely don't like the idea of having to waste a talent point to get 2 handers, because a much more elegant solution: is to just equip one and be good to go.

[@Frostingale]

that pick actually has a buff that most people haven't talked about. it guarentees procs from auto attack crits for 2h. meaning that there is a tangible reason to pick it.

[@sunnycyberbum]

I miss the Dark Arbiter build tier set from Legion that was fun tbh

[@Gynocopter]

The one thing about the trees that I think I just gaslit myself into thinking was going to happen was that they weren't going to 'make' you take 3 points in improved death strike for aboms limb. I think it's kind of a failing of a modern game tree that you can weave around A LOT more - finding more value in going horizontally then straight down is a choice because you won't always make it to the bottom (if it was properly pointed out) It makes sense for like ability changing talents to have a requirement - like D&D giving haste requiring D&D. But I don't see any bond between frost whelp requiring frozen pulse/avalanche, etc. Would rather see a web of choices rather than 3 vertical lines that sometimes overlap (which is the DK class tree)

[@itskhro]

12:45 And also for new players in leveling, and leveling in general. Still a very big part of the game that they have to think about, and VERY different mindsets to cater to.

[@georgelane7660]

Absolutely. They need to nail the class fantasy way more than they need to make the choices interesting for high end players. Hopefully, they do both, but fantasy comes first.

[@the_OG1893]

These talks are God tier. Any extra light on class feel/play/balance for blizzard from theory crafters and prominent players the better. It only becomes a problem when professional players whine and it causes changes that negatively impact the other 99% of the community.

[@carybirkbeck9613]

It would be cool if there was gameplay where instead of bursting wounds u would amplify a dot or something...kind of like how agony does more dmg later, could be ST then burst the dot for aoe? Idk game design well but would be more thoughts

[@drakedbz]

Frost DK is literally the only spec left in the game that I just haven't played in group content. I used to be able to say that about a number of specs (arms, enh, surv, bm, and a few others), but now frost is all that's left. I'm legitimately thinking about maining it in DF if it continues to look this strong. Also, bring back Necrotic Plague for UH, and make Festering Strike extend dots again instead of applying wounds. That would almost completely fix the spec for me. You could make some interesting decisions between wounds, diseases, and pets as the sections of the tree if they set it up that way.

[@vahdis]

Love this series. Gives such great incite and feedback into how these trees work and most importantly feel.

[@igbl108]

I think each talent tree would feel so much better if at every current level that you have a talent option while leveling - players are given 2-3 points instead of one. This would allow every player to level cap with 7-14 more talent points to spend.

[@Dantarn]

Breath BDK in WoD was the most fun I've ever had playing WoW. I wish it would come back :(

[@ItsJustLewisThings]

Surely the "it's the hardest weapon to obtain" will be gone if master looting is back in raid scenarios? Cause if it drops it's your unless you have those tanks that use them.

[@ajm365]

As an obliteration FDK, I think they should keep that a passive. It's crazy that in order to have potential gear balance we need to take a talent point.

[@neburatilucim919]

I wish that Ambo limb and remorsless winter would be of GCD

[@keetaroth]

tbh, make razor ice a passive, incorporate might of the frozen wastes into obliterate baseline and scrap the whole thing about needing a talent to play 2h, i agree that weapon type shouldnt dictate how you play, thats the whole idea of a talent tree, chosing your play style based on talent path

[@FelipeSantos-wu1uf]

They need to make Fortitute, AMS and Death Strike baseline, then you get 3 more points.

[@James_Johnson79]

Hot take. I’m totally fine with dropping empower rune weapon for any spec to avoid button bloat. Especially later in the expansion when resource generation is less of a problem.

[@PendlayRoe]

53:00 Idk, I think it feels good to use these powerful cooldowns with a GCD in between. Unholy Assault doing instant dmg and acting as a mega buffed festering strike is cool. If Dark Transformation had an instant dmg portion looking like Flanking Strike or Kill Command, it would feel much better to press even if that dmg is pitiful.

[@Lmwpitt]

Agree. I think Unholy feels pretty good with GCDs - i love it tbh.

[@EgeDai]

I had the most fun in SL playing venthyr udk, which was the covenant mdi players went with in keys. The more target u had around u the more rp u generated and for that duration it felt like a bottomless well of epidemics and u just smashed big undying packs. I kind of wished when you used epidemic you gained a stack and when that stack reached 10 u exploded the disease or smtn for mega dam or evolved the disease into something stronger etc… it was kinda stale to just build big and spend big, there could be more interaction there kinda like the destro tier kit atm. It could spawn maggots that explode and spread wounds for all i care. Nobody talked about how the target of dnd is disabling the true power of the bfa wounds build, cant pop that many wounds with a single gcd atm, and i think they secretly nerfed the wound generation rate of that ‘ur pets generate wounds’ talent. Venthyr udk was buried after s1 as they mainly buffed necrolord to deem udks a little bit more in line with the rest of the dps specs and to do that by buffing a single covenant ability and conduits instantly slaughtered the rest of the covenants.

[@TheMrsmartiekid]

the deaths advance talent shouldn't give you deaths advance, it should give you a buffed version of it

[@bongcrusha420]

the thing with all the builds people are making without abom limb is kinda silly because you would literaly only ever take abom limb OR mass grip if the fight required it. and its fucking pre alpha so we have absolutly no clue what the fights look like. as soon as we see the fights and there is a mass aoe fight or random add spawns that need to get griped gues what, you dk will be taking that dps loss and geting that grip

[@shedow2468]

Maybe it would be a good thing to take away the damage component of Abom Limb and only use the grip part and make it a choice note with mass grip somewhere in the general tree and replace Abom limb with something else completely

[@arforafro5523]

Abom Limb overall is prone to being super wonky right now. In PvE there's situations like Rygelon forcing DK's to either not use Abom Limb or cancel it out early if they dont want to mess up with add positioning while for PvP it can start breaking CC's off people when you only want to group up multiple targets. I think the damage and the pulling should be split, maybe make Abom Limb pure DPS and bring back Mass Grip somewhere else in the tree.

[@EtherPump]

0:31:49 I think its fascinating to hear people say stuff like "But gave up all the good shit, giving up Festermight and Deathrot feels real bad". Only seeing these talents as "this is just an 3% dps increase, this is pog/dog." Meanwhile someone else(me) only give a shit about spec altering talents, like Infectious Wounds(Fester procs more wounds) or Unholy Command(Coil reduce DT cd) that change how you play the class and things like Death Rot and Morbidity which you don't think or care about that just increase your damage are boring AF.

[@valkyrja1232]

They talked about some tier sets not feeling good, but still being fairly strong, and WW monk tier set is there, like i love windwalker cause it feels sick to play, its fun, and it absolutely cranks AOE, but i cannot wait for the tier set to go away, get forced to do any mechanic, and just cry

[@TwinerJack]

how about change to "Might of the frozen Wastes" talent, to give you ability to engrave two runeforges instead of one?

[@eneme0126]

Imagine tier sets granting us like 5 extra points for each tree.

[@LATHSPELL70]

Wraith walk and enslave undead should be flipped.

[@klosterdude]

How do you feel about Evokers having an AMZ on crack less? They literally took old AMZ, slapped a speed buff on it, and unironically said "This is great!"

[@brandoncollins3259]

Necro prot is the execute king right now due to the execute buff given to arms and necro increasing mastery and attack power

[@turnerrosser5191]

Man y’all forget 25 mally. 1st tier of dk and the first grip fight. I’m hoping dk is good thank you for doing talks like this.

[@mylittlepwnage]

you just earned a sub

[@2invidious]

Max, I agree 100% that blizzard needs lots of feedback. I'm sure you're going to cover all the trees, but please, please cover survival hunter. The tree seems to be such a mess. Most talents are just % increase to dmg and super uninspired.

[@DuskChill]

Frost DK has 45 points in their tree. Outlaw has 51. Survival has 58, with a majority either being a % increase or an actual dead talent (4% to proc a free kill shot for 3 points, or 3 points so your low damage Kill Command has a 100% chance of critting after resetting only during the 20 second duration of a 2 minute cooldown). It also needs a lot of placement and pathway changes, as there's talents in the aoe section, aoe in the middle section, and aoe in the ST section.

[@Mr91Jmay]

They already did hunter tree last night, sure it will get posted soon

[@DieB0bDie]

iv had pretty much the same build for frost since start of shadowlands, this is gonna take some adjusting but its graet we finaly have meanigfull choices

[@alexis1156]

I like the fact that they are making "really strong" options, in the end balancing is just number tuning, at the moment you think this may be too strong, because you are looking at things as they are now. But if everyone has access to what would seem at the moment "extremely powerful options", then you are not "too strong" You are just balanced. But the gameplay that you get from those options, that's the important thing. Do you really wanna play a game where you are always held back? Where you always feel like you could be more than just this? Where there is no real progression?

[@devincassidy114]

It would be nice to see PVP representation in these discussion.

[@Dekaide44]

Is there a site you can click through talent trees

[@Skulm]

Having a PvP focused DK in these discussions would take this "session video" to the next level. Some of the talents discussed in the video are analysed only from a PvE perspective, whereas they make sense with regards to PvP. At 1:07:58 Atlas mentioned Enduring Chill being mathematically superior to Piercing Chill. In PvP however, you rarely get full value/hits out of Chill Streak. In other words, Piercing Chill becomes a better choice in PvP, because you will realistically get 2-3 hits anyway, since good PvP'ers will use cc breaks, grips or other utilities to move away from Chill Streak bounce range. Also, at 1:11:58 there was a talk about 2h Frost. Obliteration is a PvP build which works pretty well, and from the looks of it the talent tree looks pretty exciting with regards to PvP. Breath might be superior in dungeons and raids but then again 2h Obliteration is the go to talent for Frost PvP. Anyways, thank you for organizing this type of informative discussion session.

[@ObscenumLoL]

Hey Blizzard, just a head's up for you guys... Now it's the time to listen to players feedback, not 10.2 or 10.3.... Just saying that listening and fixing the talents before 10.0 get's released would be nice.

[@viceviscera6952]

I think a lot of the concerns about talents are shared across the Druid, DK, and Priest tree so I hope these people don't just think these are DK problems but more of an overall design choice problem.

[@blackblade99009]

i am still a pusher of the idea that we should not have things taken away just to have them returned as 'choices' in a talent tree. they should remain baseline and be improved in some way via talents. for instance make mind freeze be altered slightly so it feels different for everyone but have it be in your base tool kit. for instance you can choose to either get runic power on successful interrupt, long silence on successful interrupt, shortened cooldown on successful interrupt, or it does a bit of damage whether it is successful or not. this gives four choices to choose and customize how you want to play. you need to be a big burster in a fight with interrupts? runic power on success. need to interrupt more in a heavy caster dungeon? shorter cooldown on success. a single mob with powerful casts? long silence. just want a little damage to stop the gap of dps? damage on use. 4 situations with only a little effort and nothing was taken away. this is more evergreen than what blizz has presented.

[@santiagomartini7814]

max back again with the great content

[@DieseNuesse]

as dk player since day 1 it is clear to me that every specc tree has to be seperated into all sources. example unholy: the dmg comes from diseases, pets or popping wounds/melee dmg. blizz has to make it interesting to master every of those 3 aspects seperatly. same for the other speccs. and yeah the baseline dk tree especially at the middle unholy side is really really weak. pvp is also a big problem. i have no idea if similar pvp talents return atm but if not there will be no reason to take a dk over a ret or war

[@JG_Parker]

why tf is frost strike a ability i have to spend a talent point on???

[@burkles4456]

I can’t imagine someone watching videos like this who is the ‘2h rp death knight’. If you’re watching pre-release systems and theory crafting I’d guess you would realize more dps is better and just play with whatever is best lol

[@calebfoy3289]

im confused as to why they think it's a "feels bad" for abom limb to be bot mid? It isn't like DPS dk ever really had it in the past and theyre now gaining empower rune wep as unholy which is massive... you can just take the limb as tank if it's needed for a fight. If it's too high up then DK would be too busted for PVP

[@Crazyphapha]

i swear max if you get us nerfed again...

[@ZorkusYT]

dk frost nerf

[@stean6957]

A pvp Perspektive wouldve been nice, wafflez for example

[@nicholasgraves3149]

Balance druid has to spend 3/3 in Umbral Intensity and Stellar Inspiration (both are SL conduits that are so bad that they've never been played the entire expansion) to get to juicer nodes like Soul of the Forest and Twin Moons and more. These two 3/3 nodes are basically within margin of error dps values on sims. Some specs have banger 3/3 nodes like Zoldyck and Scent of Blood, and some have nodes that literally do not do anything period like Balance, Spriest, and apparently DK. Shame.

[@KaX321]

Fuck yes no more wounds. I miss the dot based MoP unholy. Not gonna happen tho.

[@warcraftarenas8770]

Aboms limb as unholy RIPS... aboms limb as any other spec blows, especially since u cant take the actual Abom conduit that gives you a free 5-6k free damage as frost or blood (if u didnt want to play meta kyrian/night fae for both specs) so 10k abombs limb as frost, or 26k Aboms limb as unholy... what to choose what to choose lol

[@ziel4889]

OMG WHAT IS HAPPENING!!!!

[@pesigolles]

Good talk but for next one i think it would be better if you also bring someone from the pvp comunity, pvp is a really big part of the game too and they are gonna play with the same talents but have a different view on theme

[@ja17979]

I cannot wait for BDK to be so OP again that it won't be played cuz DH deals more damage in M+ and monk has a debuff for raid.

[@GravityDAD]

not to be that guy but Max you look great, new diet? new workout routine? or just a new shirt lol

[@BubasparksAB]

I have feeling Blizzard will screw DKs again.

[@James_Johnson79]

Wish they’d bring back the little abom talent from legion.

[@jeremyallen6816]

I would love to see Chains of Ice swapped with Icebound Fortitude. Having to select Chains of Ice just to get IBF is a waste of a point in most raid situations. It would also free up a point for Mind Freeze if an interrupt is not needed on fights like Skolex.

[@jinxero475]

Something that was brought up during this and Im sure other talks as well, is the disparity between what pve players and pvp players 'want'. Now, this could be the simplest fix in the world, but 'what if' pve and pvp had completely separate talent trees? setup what you want for pve, setup what you want for pvp, and call it a day. The only times the pvp tree becomes active is open world warmode or in pvp scenarios. This would allow designers to tune the trees separately, and while I wont say eliminate, it would greatly reduce the vocalization of the disparity between the two sets of players.

[@QPoily]

Why would you want this, though? I play a fire mage because I enjoy the playstyle it provides in both PvE and PvP. I'd hate for the playstyle to change dramatically between the modes. Not only is it confusing to newer players and older players alike, it just feels shit to have your skill not be as easily transferrable between the modes. The disparity between open world content and instanced content already feels shitty enough for no reason.

[@YunaxEU]

At the end of the day there will be 1 tree which every single player takes and then people will give you shit for taking anything else that isnt 'the norm' lol

[@delweisshouse7841]

Please, Blizzard, bring back different runes. Now it feels like combo points, not runes. I want back unholy, blood, frost and death purple runes. It was so great class fantasy with depth in it that made you think how you manage your runes. And it lead to MEANINGFUL CHOICES, cool combinations in different scenarios. New runes made me do not want to play death knight, it was my favorite class. If you agree with me, please provide this feedback to blizzard, so we can have more fun again. Not even talking about weapon choices, auras and hybridity...

[@WTF117drug]

Am I the only one, who liked wounds as kinda 3d resource?(

[@ookazzii]

delete wound popping plz

[@kooz-miester6245]

I'd say instead of taking away abilities to put in the talent tree why not have those talents improve upon those abilities, some of the bottom tree choices sure don't mind if they are abilities but practically DK's entire utility capability is in the talent tree instead of baseline as it should be and honestly kinda makes me salty for this new xpac God I hope they don't stick with this, death strike should be baseline as well as our ONLY interrupt mind freeze, chain of ice should be baseline, maybe swap mind freeze with dark simulacrum in talent tree? I wouldn't mind that lol 😆 idk right now as the talent tree is, its total cringe 😬

[@3XiL3d]

why not bring back castigator if they are adding shit like extra wounds rng fester shit, make scourge have a chance of poping just as many

[@richardjones8846]

51:40 unfortunately... blizzard hates DoT's and that's why basically no dot in the game matters.

[@SacuraShadowDemon]

Ugh I HATE bos. I hate having to worry about a skill that could fuck your dps in one swoop. I'm just going unholy again. lol

[@BobbuAlmighty]

They should give a mobility talent on the aoe side

[@shaunybonny688]

Being constrained to the lines connecting each node is a drag. If it was just open for whatever you wanted it would feel a lot better.

[@randomnobody660]

Haven't played wow in over a year now in favor of mechanically difficult-ish single player games, so perhaps strange take, but I think the dps-utility dilemma should be easily solved by actually challenging content that is alleviated by utility. Like great, you sacrificed all utility on your talent tree for damage and now your build, strong as it is, take 200 iq to play. Your rotation is convoluted af because you took 5 nodes that add complicated passives but nothing for qol, prepare to do 10 fight mechanics while spinning your plates. You have no defensive because you went full send on damage. Great. This mechanic is technically dodge-able but will debuff your based on how much damage you took should you fail, or you could dodge it while sacrificing dps uptime, but with a defensive you can realistically tank it. Even if dps is all that matters, utility can still be "needed" to enable dps. Perhaps dps nodes will raise a character's dps ceiling, while utility nodes its floor. Make a full dps build only realistically optimal for a slim minority of the playerbase, and let the average player choose how confident they are in their ability to perform.

[@themoreno2600]

Someone in chat said that 2h frost playets are like feral mains and I feel so called out bro it's not even funny and now I'm upset

[@Yumpa2k]

Dude 2h obliterate is just 🤌 2h frost was always better imo. If they aint gonna fix this 2h crap I am going rogue or ret paladin 😭

[@chrishopson5362]

Bring Necrotic plague back for Unlock and Make Defile Baseline for Frost

[@Bman24641]

God i hate breath.... but here we go again i guess

[@jonteguy]

Losing core abilities might feel bad for now but it's going to be better 100% because we have more options (stuff from other specs that were not accessible before) Having classes and specs being able to do different things is huge, not being forced to be a certain spec to do a certain thing because it's in the class tree is massive, this isn't that prevalent in the DK tree but in the other ones it is, this is *good.* I honestly think you guys are missing some of the intention with this tree. Too focused on numbers, numbers are not always better than utility, it all comes down to how they design the fights and game in general. We might see a shift here were just pushing straight up numbers might not be as important anymore but instead having the right tools for the fight and using it to perfection is more important and hopefully it varies what tools are needed in what scenario so that people can make use of the actual loadout system they are going to implement. Also please bring a Glad on for the next one for the love of God, you guys are talking as if PvP isn't even a thing. You said some stuff were useless when it is not for PvP:ers. More than just the triangle part at the top.

[@QPoily]

Mate, a lot of the abilities classes are getting access to again were pruned from them during WoD and Legion. Wtf you talking about "gaining access to more options" They're merely getting these abilities returned at the cost of having to sacrifice other abilities. "not being forced to be a certain spec to do a certain thing because it's in the class tree is massive" - instead now you're forced to be a jack of all trades when initially you just wanted to have a set role known for one thing. The problem you're not seeing here is that utility and what not does not reflect in performance meters. People like seeing numbers go up and competing on the meter. Utility does not reflect on these meters and therefore doesn't feel as satisfying. That doesn't mean utility isn't a satisfying thing, quite the contrary. When you're able to utilize your utility role to such perfection and still compete on the damage meter it feels amazing. This becomes nearly impossible though with these meters. The disparity between utility roles and pure DPS roles is only going to increase and make it less satisfying to optimally execute your supporty role in a fight. Honestly Wildstar had something similar to this and it just flat out didn't feel fun. You'd have people going full DPS build and you'd get recommended togo full DPS build and these builds would barely have any fun abilities in them because they were a DPS loss. Mobility? No. CC? No. Just damage. Other specs do what you do better so your spec's role is to sacrifice all of your fun abilities and become a damage bot. It's just not fun on either sides of the coin and it boggles my mind that people are praising the system which ultimately arbitrarily limits people's capabilities in fights and forces you to constantly swap in and out abilities through a bunch of menus. Since when did this become the pinnacle of 'fun'?

[@jonteguy]

@@QPoily More options doesn't mean more shit to press at the same time. Options does not equal buttons, options means OPTIONS. No you are not forced to be a jack of all trades, you can 100% go all in on something and another DK/ROGUE or whatever might go 100% on the other thing, people will need different specs loadouts for different things, this is good whether you think it is or not. Think about this, 2 assassin rogues with good gear apply for your M+ Key and it's a high key but you need 1 AoE and 1 ST, instead of saying "YOU ARE NOT SUB YOU CANNOT COME" You can tell them "You can come but *one of you* have to spec into AoE" and they can play the spec they *enjoy* still. *One* of the few things this tree does for players is that they are not forced to swap spec to do a thing that is needed, no one brings a fucking assassin rogue currently for high M+ keys because their AoE is so bad in comparison to Sub, a tree that gives you options can fix that, "Oh you wanna do less ST for more AoE, Okay here are some talents for that." instead of being forced to swap into Sub even though you might not like that spec. Will sub be *better* at AoE? Maybe, we don't know, but at least picking an Assassin now might be *viable* instead of flat-out denied. Forcing people to play a spec they don't want is bad design. People only like the meter stuff because the content is easy, people care less about meters if people are actually struggling to kill something, if content is hard and it's because mechanics and utility is an issue, people care less about meters. I can prove this to you by just mentioning expansion releases, do people look at the meter as much early on as late on? No, why? Because they haven't figured out the content so just *completing* it is enough, DPS meters only come into a penis evaluation once content has become repetitive and *mundane.* So having content rely *more* on people doing the right stuff in fights is better, how can we do that? Utility abilities and forcing people to use them better. Content should always be hard, not because you're not pushing numbers but because the thing you are doing is hard, Shadowlands was *not* like this. It was a numbers expansion. And last but not least, for class and spec *balance* this is MILES better than the other stuff we have had. Think about it, "Rogue needs to do 0.2% less damage" what do we do? Nerf a fucking node. Easy, don't have to ruin an entire ability for it. I'm not going to bother more than this because your comment is telling me you don't actually understand what was being said and why this tree was made. Just wait for the game and see, people will 100% like this system more than anything that's been in a past 2 expansions. Now obviously I can be wrong, but so can you. So all we can truly do is just wait, but the intention and philosophy behind this redesign of the tree is good.

[@Bloodbow]

I can't wait to see the very last one of the talent tree discussions on demon hunter, it'll be a banger video. Wouldn't be surprised if their is a lot of disappointment whenever it does happen.