Talking with Vivienne | Dragon Age: Inquisition

[@Markiemedes]

"That woman waste no words" - Cassandra

[@AlleluiaElizabeth]

Man, I still love this woman. I'd be so happy to get a cameo of her next game.

[@guitarwhelp]

For all the hate vivienne receives, she has excellent dialogue. In fact, she's one of the only people in the series who actually has great points as to why the circles are necessary. I dislike her, but I recognize her excellent writing and character

[@ephemeralhowl5876]

Good on you for being mature enough to see that, darling. haha

[@Dyrssen]

I stand impressed too, my dear.

[@jaredkidd1]

+guitarwhelp Yep. I do Dislike her however she is a well written character. I don't agree with the circles but she does make a good point.

[@jaredkidd1]

+guitarwhelp I there must by a some kind of Organization to regulate Mages and magic use, then let Mages be a part of it. Who knows the dangers of magic better then a Mage? And it would also help to stop oppression of Mages

[@JeraldLee]

Sometimes, when I listen to hear about the importance of circle I....I think I understand why it was built in the first place. But things are changing and bringing back the status quo would not work.

[@MGJ182]

I love her. She knows what risk being a mage is and she is not shy not involving herself in that party. Magic in this game is dangerous and it should be kept under control, but I like how she believes templars are not the best option for that. She dreams of creating a better circle, and circles are needed here, very much so. Mages are simply different... there is no warranty to their volatile nature.

[@tylerwade3498]

And we wanna scold wynne smh

[@MartinToms]

Actually, when you talk to her as a mage and ask her if she is a risk, she says that both you and her are absolutely a risk and basically says that it's stupid to think otherwise.

[@horclynedott1259]

Oh my god I love her.

[@Veyron722skyhook]

I don't know if anyone else thinks his, but I've certainly come to notice she's almost similar to Wynne in a way. Anyone else think so?

[@mezzki1]

Veyron722skyhook Yeah, in her wisdom.

[@GenericUsername-qp1ww]

Veyron722skyhook Well Wynne is less hypocritical and a lot more attractive.

[@optimaltt6070]

Nuanced, wise, experienced, knowledgeable, pro-Circle, and almost motherly if you show a bit of vulnerability in a one-on-one conversation(like expressing self doubt about your goal, worth or achievments).....yep. She and Wynne have a LOT in common. Despite that, I think Wynne wouldn't get along with her too much, but knowing Wynne, she'd still try to understand her(because she is a precious, beautiful woman, may she rest in peace).

[@jimstoesz3878]

In the uncharacteristically wise words of Sera: Vivienne's a bitch, but she knows.

[@tylerwade3498]

I swear they wrote wynne off before she could do anything for this a mage vs templar war with spirit possessed hero of fereldan with soooo much sway that she could have become divine literally wynne as divine could have solved soo soo much

[@ColdCoalTV]

I think different people have different needs. But if you start treating people less than then they'll give less of a fuck about the people that didn't give them any.

[@micahbohannon4823]

I think Vivienne has excellent points about how to maintain safety for the mages and basically reforming the circles. The problem, and I don't mean to speak for everyone, that I think many have with her is her obvious brainwashed view on spirits. She shows absolutely no open mindedness towards them, and lets her fear of them keep her from learning more. Truly that's my only problem with her, not really her idea on helping the mages maintain some semblance of freedom in a world with magic. She never even calls spirits, spirits... they are all demons to her, which coincidentally is one way demons are created.

[@barbiecore_]

You know you're wrong, right? I don't understand how the fandom has SO much difficulty understanding Viv character. It's like she's too complex for most people to understand and they end up having some problem with her.

[@PKFl4sh]

Her banter with Cole is quite revealing. It's not that she misunderstands spirits - it's that she's *afraid* of them, as well she should be. But in his case, she is eventually able to overcome her fear, but still acts cruel to him because she believes that expressing concern over another is weakness. Cole (talking about protecting him from binding magic): "You were worried." Vivienne: "I was concerned *about* you, demon." Cole: "No, you were worried. The part of you that forgets I'm *me* cared. You want it to go away; you think caring makes you weak. Don't worry, I won't tell anyone!"

[@MartinToms]

I mean... She's not entirely wrong. If Cole gets corrupted, he'll become an extremely dangerous demon in the form of a human, possessing the abilities of a fear demon, and the ability to walk around unnoticed.

[@theemperor3497]

Vivienne is something of a contradictory character. She's a mage and believes in mages being allowed in the Chantry, but her disposition with magic is... table-turning, for lack of a better word. I agree with her about the Circle because it is necessary for mages to practice their magic so they won't harm other people. She is right about magic being dangerous, but it seems like her views of magic stand on that principle. In my opinion and what I've witnessed by playing the games, magic is truly dangerous when a corrupt mind uses it. Look at Uldred, the White Lily Killer, Anders, and even Alexius. Still, magic is dangerous if not used for beneficial or benevolent purposes, not because it just exists. Or maybe Vivienne's views on magic stem towards her trying to gain a stronger status. Still, my position with Vivienne is a love/hate kind. She may have wisdom, but she's too condescending sometimes.

[@xell6834]

You forgot the boy that destroyed RedCliffe if you leave it for to long in Origins. He not only got possessed but also summoned the dead. Add on to that his mother was at fault with it. Vivienne isn't being contradictory she's being real with the situation. Magic is dangerous without knowledge which is why circles are needed. If mages get to out of hand Templars are used to destroy. The line between mage and Templars was crossed when Anders decided to blow up the Kirkwall chantry just to 'free' mages. Also Vivienne does agree the Circle and Templar should be reformed but rioting and seperating from the Chantry JUST AFTER THE FACT Anders blew one up just made everything worse.

[@DarkKing009]

Vibe Checking Gods is every mage's responsibility. Gotta keep those bastards on their toes.

[@alexl7213]

I loved Vivienne's character, and I think her thoughts about Mages are on point. Of course, Mages wouldn't agree. But it's as simple as this: Mages tap into the Fey. Fey is home for spirits and demons. Not even good intentions can keep a Mage away from the influence of spirits and demons. And since pure spirits can turn into demons by the result of twisted actions, any Mage can eventually be possessed. So, yes, Mages need Circles to train, to learn how to deal with the Fey. And countermeasures must exist for the eventual possessed Mage.

[@Spiralpaladin]

Your points are very valid, as are Vivienne's. Yet at the same time, the system of the Circles was drastically flawed. Especially in Kirkwall. That place by itself was a powder keg waiting to blow with how horribly their mages were treated. And when it did, the entire world was thrown into chaos. When a mage's only options in life are to take the Harrowing, risking themselves against a demon they may not be even remotely prepared to fight, or being made Tranquil thus becoming little more than an imitation of life, it's downright cruel on one hand, yet on the other it's a necessary evil to see if a mage can truly resist temptation. Vivienne understands these harsh truths and doesn't hide how much she agrees with their necessity in the world they live in.

[@medallionvaliance5349]

She’s not wrong in a lot of ways, but she’s definitely not always right. Mages ARE different, they DO possess innate powers that can and are sometimes used to abuse people. However, just because it CAN be used to tyrannical ends doesn’t mean it always will be; there are mages who just want to use their magic to cook snacks or chill their beer, who have NO intentions on chatting up demons and sacrificing people for power. You can’t lock up nine people just because one is acting like a monster, but if you don’t lock up that one in ten, dozens may get seriously hurt in the chaos they make. Vivienne is right in the way that you can’t always see who the one in ten is, and thus containing everyone seems logical, until you realize that this breeds contempt and a desperation to escape injustice that sometimes employs ugly means to escape this end. The one in ten becomes two, three, four, five out of ten, and thus you have a bigger problem than what you started out with. I’m pretty sure this resentment and desperation for freedom actually is what drove Jowan in the mage origin of DA:O to blood magic in the first place. The other issue of course are those who have every intention of being responsible with their magic, but who don’t know how to do that, and thus they hurt themselves or others with their magic by accident. Training is DEFINITELY neccessary here, but lifelong imprisonment? That just creates more problems, and that’s why I think here the Dalish have a bit of a better system (barring the awful fact that they throw out their young mages when they have too many in a clan. In these cases, maybe a boarding school where you stay to control your powers for a time before leaving can help?) Dalish Keepers train their mages and ingrain a “No demons, no blood magic” policy, and while this doesn’t always work (*Merril*) it seems pretty effective for the most part considering the lack of Elven abominations in the woods. The thing is, all of Vivienne’ points ring pretty hollow coming from a woman who is more free and privileged than her fellow mages. They are *begging* for a sliver of what she has. She can keep a lover, she owns property outside the tower (and is free to romp around besides), and she holds many powerful titles; she is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. She needs to realize that before her advocacy can be seen as valid and valuable.

[@barbiecore_]

Vivienne is not an exception, there were many other "free" mages like her. Most players don't know this, that's why she is the most misunderstood character in the entire game and many players hate her or think she is privileged. "Vivienne: *"Most Circles allowed mages to live away from the tower, either on their own or in service to the nobility. All that is required was the permission from the First Enchanter."* And of course, she holds a lot of titles among other things, but she got all these things because she's an AMBITIOUS mage, not because she is privileged or something, she struggled to have the privileges she has. The only privileged mage in the game is Morrigan and that's why Viv hate her. Morrigan is just free as Vivienne is or even more, the difference is that Vivienne lived in two Circles of Magi and she is the youngest mage to live in a Circle Tower, while Morrigan was free and living with her mother, Vivienne navigated through the Circle politics and played the Game to create her own opportunities and become Enchantress of the Orlesian Court and Morrigan had her position handed to her. "Cole: Uncultured barbarian witch. Vivienne: I beg your pardon, demon? Cole: Jaws ache, dress stiff, binding. *Years of work* , favors fought, deals dealt, and the witch usurped my position. Vivienne: Remove yourself from my head. Cole: You're angry at Morrigan. She took what you had *without working* . Vivienne: She took nothing. If Empress Celene wished the counsel of some untrained witch, she was free to seek it. Cole: Celene did not make you go away. She respected you. Vivienne: She feared the consequences of angering me."

[@medallionvaliance5349]

@@barbiecore_ I think your point is completely fair in that to Vivienne, Morrigan WOULD seem quite spoiled and privileged, as she was born into freedom rather than almost immediately being given up to a Circle. But Morrigan DID have to fight for that freedom every day to survive long enough to get a position in court, similar to how Vivienne had to train and earn respect in the Game to survive long enough to be as respected and feared as she is. I think what most people are upset with Vivienne for is how little she touches upon or validates the experience of abused mages. She never had to suffer the worst of these firsthand, and neither did anyone she was close to it seems, which makes her inexperienced and in turn very dismissive of these very common struggles. She also doesn’t seem to offer much alternative rather than “kill everyone we cannot fit into the same broken system as before.”

[@barbiecore_]

@@medallionvaliance5349 Of course the Morrigan fought for her freedom, she is a mage after all, but she never suffered like the Circle mages did, so don't compare Morrigan's fight for freedom to Vivienne's fight for freedom. Morrigan is the privileged one when compared to Vivienne. Morrigan is a thousand times more ruthless and cruel than Vivienne and *has never moved a finger to improve the lives of the Circle mages* while Vivienne has dedicated her life to improve the mages' lives and reputation as she could. The truth is that Vivienne didn't just join the Inquisition for power, she joined the Inquisition because she would have enough power to shape the future of the Circle and the mages for them to have the same opportunities she had, and that's what she does when she becomes Divine or Grand Enchanter. "Solas: Do enjoy this time, Enchanter. You may miss your freedom when you lock yourself back up in some tower. Vivienne: Imprisonment is largely a matter of who holds the keys. What Vivienne meant: If *I* become Divine and hold the keys, mages won't be imprisoned again. Solas: You so often come out on top. You play the political games brilliantly. Vivienne: A compliment? Although you speak it as a curse. Solas: You could use those skills to improve the lives of your fellow mages. Instead you have done nothing, save consolidate your own power. Vivienne: What if keeping my power might in fact improve the lives of my fellow mages? What Vivienne meant: I am a feared and respected mage throughout South Thedas, I was the only Circle mage to volunteer to help the Inquisition restore order, I remain loyal to Chantry and I am the first Circle mage to hold political power. I don't have enough power to make changes but I use my power and influence to show everyone that we mages can rule and hold positions of power. I use my power to help my fellow mages and if I become Divine I will have enough power to help mages. Solas: You honestly believe the world is better off with you setting its course? What Solas meant: Do you really think you will make Thedas a better place if you become Divine? Vivienne: I need not be in spotlight. But after watching others try and fail, why should I not have a turn? Solas: Then Enchanter, I leave you with the greatest curse of my people. Dirthara-ma. Vivienne: What rustic elven curse is that, apostate? Solas: "May you learn." "I think what most people are upset for is how little she touches upon or validates the experience of abused mages." "Inquisitor: What was it like to live in a Circle? Vivienne: My dear, your question is THE ROOT of all problems with mages. I cannot tell you. Every Circle was different, their templars were different, their politics unique.. And every person within each tower had an experience of Circle life UNIQUE to themselves. Some people suffered and some were content. Some were cruel, some compassionate and some indifferent." "Vivienne: Some Circles were harsher in their restrictions. Kirkwall was the worst but it was the exeption. Most were quite permissive." (btw she fixes it when she becomes Divine.) Vivienne knows her experience in the Circle is not universal, she is aware of Templar abuses and she does not agree with it. "She never had to suffer the worst of these firsthand." "Vivienne: Having opinions about templars, my dear, is exactly about having opinions about mages, or Nevarrans or men. I've known some who were impossible to endure and some who were utterly charming. I've suffered insults at the hands of those in the armor, but no more than I endured from nobles or tradsmen in Val Royeaux." "Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will control me ever again. (The demon) Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I’m me. Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them. Vivienne: Delightful." She lived in two Circle towers: Ostwick and Montsimmard, two completely different Circles, she suffered abuse and insults from the Templars like any other mage and she almost was killed on her Harrowing. It's funny how most people see Vivienne ONLY as a noble and forget that she's a Circle mage.. And most importantly: They forget that Vivienne is THE FIRST ENCHANTER of her Circle tower, she still have to go to the Circle, she just doesn't sleep there anymore: "Iron Bull: I assume that... between living in the Circle and... wherever you live in Orlais, you don't get out much, ma'am. Vivienne: It is somewhat uncommon, yes." "Varric: So, Enchanter to the Imperial Court? That's a fancy title. Vivienne: How very observant. Varric: Why aren't you holed up with the Empress in Halamshiral? Vivienne: Grand Duke Gaspard laid siege to the city *while I was attending to business for the Circle.* " And let's not forget what Vivienne witnessed returning to the Montsimmard Circle AFTER the rebellion: "Cole: A sour smell in the Tower library, rotten meat and ashes. Too quiet *without the apprentices.* Something crunches underfoot. Burned finger bones glitter in the ash like pearls. Ice in my veins. *The archivist* ... what was her name? Vivienne: Get. Out. Cole: Why did they kill her? She was just like them! Vivienne: They "helped" her. Just like you did. *Anyone who wouldn't fight for freedom was "freed" by fire and lightning.* Stay out of my thoughts demon. My memories are my own." "She also doesn't seem to offer much alternative rather than kill everyone cannot fit into the same broken system as before." Morrigan wanted to let all the mages in the Ferelden's Circle DIE for the simple reason that she didn't agree with them submitting to the Chantry and no one seems to care about it. 🙂 Btw, when Vivienne is Divine she reforms the system. The fact is that when a white woman is rude, power-hungry, and ruthless, no one cares because they think she's just being sassy. (Morrigan), Or when a white woman says that mages must stay inside the Circle and doesn't move a finger to improve the system, no one seems to care either but they respect her point of view. (Wynne) But when a black woman is rude, power-hungry and ruthless, people think she's being a bitch.. and when that same black woman says that mages must stay inside the Circles and uses her own political power to fix the system that was broken and give the mages a better life, people treat her as if she were Hitler. Curious, isn't it?🙃

[@MichaelJohnson-ky1go]

@@barbiecore_ You had a pretty good argument until the last part. Just where the hell was Vivienne's race even mentioned at all? That came out as so stupidly unnecessary and took the discussion in a direction it wasn't even heading towards to. If you need to race bait to defend a character that was *written* to be divisive, hate to break it to you but you're already a lost cause. I don't like Morrigan in Origins, and I shouldn't be forced to like Vivienne because otherwise I'm apparently racist if I don't. What's it like being that shallow?

[@sage94]

I think a lot of people miss the fact that a mage doesn't necessarily need to have bad intentions to do harm. Magic can be volatile and unpredictable, especially in the hands of the untrained. The Circles are sorely needed, but the Templars not so much. The Harrowing, Rite of Tranquility and extreme itolationism can get in the bin. Circles should be institutions where mages can mostly govern themselves in a safe environment, not prisons which only exaggerate mankind's fear of magic

[@pka_connor8592]

I don’t understand how people can disagree with what she is saying. It’s definitely unfair that mages have to be controlled, but if they aren’t, is it fair on the victims that get caught in the mess they make?

[@NM-gv3mu]

The problem is that that system that controls mages also creates victims. A huge problem is that you aren't allowed to properly disagree with Vivienne, that your dialogue options are so limited and simplistic that you aren't allowed to bring up actual points against Vivienne's arguments.

[@pka_connor8592]

Those points being?

[@NM-gv3mu]

@@pka_connor8592 Vivienne: "It must be a great comfort to the common folk that their survival is trivial compared to our freedom." Answer: "No, because mages don't want uncontrolled anarchy, they want a system that works for them that doesn't oppress them. They still want training and they still want a community. With the Circle system, a mages life is considered trivial, and lack of freedoms result in higher suicide rates and/or killed by templars." Or Vivienne: "Cullen doesn't have enough templars to handle incidents. Some of the rank and file need to be trained." Answer: "The 'rank and file' didn't sign up to be templars when they joined the Inquisition. We'll have the free mages focus on a curriculum of anti-magic spells, mana alteration spells, and general combat skills so that they'll be able to handle incidents in house without creating more lyrium addicts. In fact, putting the mages under the same stressful and oppressive circumstances they were under before may lead to more abominations." Or Vivienne: "The fact that there remains no cure for an abomination except death." Answer: "A demon can be exorcised from a mage abomination with the appropriate ritual by sending a mage into the fade to fight the demon." Or Vivienne: "People don't learn the fear of magic at chantry services, my dear. They learn it from us." Answer: "They also learn it at chantry services though? The chantry doesn't help the common people understand mages or magic. In fact, the common people will rarely ever even see a mage because they are kept locked in the Circle, with only a small amount of mages called to perform services for the chantry or act as a pet/accessory for the nobility. Which results in more animosity towards mages instead of allowing the chance for understanding." Or Vivienne: "You told me you would see the Chantry restored (I don't ever remember choosing this, but whatever). What about the Circle?" Answer: "Mages should create their own secular organization that trains mages and acts a community and guild for them, but ultimately doesn't take away rights away from them or oppress them. Basically, the Circle without the Chantry or templars. This should be done with the cooperation of the respective kingdoms each "Circle" is in." Just stuff like that. It actually introduces nuance instead of stupid things that are basically binary choices between oppressive order and pure chaos.

[@pka_connor8592]

@@NM-gv3mu They are all valid arguments until you take into account what giving the wrong mage the wrong power can actually do. Perhaps they could have given you stronger rebuttals (i understand that if you disagree with vivienne the game does make you feel stupid) But even then I still think Vivienne talks a lot of sense and offers a different point of view. A view point that when properly thought about protects the most people.

[@ColdCoalTV]

@@NM-gv3mu Wait a mage can just... go into the fade to fix someone's abomination issue? I will also say that maybe the writers/devs were banking on the main character not knowing the information. Though their gamers across 3 whole games would. (Well some of them anyway). Maybe they could've added these points if the main character was a mage(apostate/circle) or a templar. Or even if you learned anti-magic stuff from Cullen/Cassandra OR as a specialization. I do like the concept of seeking to understand instead of finding reasons to hate.

[@fuehnix]

Ahh, I skipped out on recruiting her and I regret it now. I should have recruited her, just so I could piss her off with my pro-mage support.

[@GenericUsername-qp1ww]

why? why must you forsake us, murder knife?

[@AM-pb3iv]

Im replaying, bc quarenteen, and i still dislike her the most.

[@williamwatson4354]

Though I use Cassandra in most parties, she's my least favorite character.