Tank Refitting Got "Fixed" - It's Really Good Now - Hoi4

They fixed tank refitting to have a proper cost like navy does, but it's super easy to exploit. Produce more tanks with less resources using magic.
Twitch.tv/71Cloak

[@mimile4462]

They just improved the already existing exploit of creating an empty tank (put the cheapest turret on it) and then use the 80% conversion bonus. It was already worth it and saved ressources before this patch. There are some new, much more spicy, exploits with the refit mechanic though.

[@xrnmx]

Not completly true, but yes, its improved and exploitable. But u cant just use the cheapeat version any longer because of an added "gun tier" resource cost and gun "Convert cost". I have a comment under this video you can read for further explainantion.

[@mimile4462]

@@xrnmx You would still put a cheaper turret on the tank you are converting from right ?

[@xrnmx]

@@mimile4462 yeah, but the cheapest tier light gun is 0.5 in cost, while, the cheapest tier medium gun is 3.0 in cost. So if u are making Medium cannon (tier medium), u want to use the medium tier gun to convert from. So the cost difference is not huge, at the same time the convert cost of that medium cannon would be 5. So they have tried balancing it, but kind of made it better, but more complicated.

[@xrnmx]

Fun fact!: Improved rocket launcher gun has an cheaper convert cost than the original cost. (4.5 vs 5). The conversion cost is calculated by taking 20% of the chassie cost (the base chassie cost - the turret cost) and adding the cost of any module that is different from the base (old youre converting from). The catch is that most guns have a own "convert cost" wich is usually higher than the orignal cost. for example a medium cannon cost 3.0, but when converting to a model with that gun, its cost is 5.0. As long as its the same tier gun (light, medium or heavy) the resource cost is just a subtraction from the tank youre converting to and base. If the gun tier is different tho, an extra resource cost (equal to the guns resource cost) is added after the subtraction is done, meaning you always pay for this cost. This is true for every difference in gun tier, like light to medium or heavy to light. I made an excel sheet trying to calculate the most optimal setup. It seems that using conversion of tanks of same gun tier saves you resources and produces more tanks. The values I get show production per resource is about double than if i didnt convert (this is dependent on type of tank conversion and amount of factories I guess)

[@mimile4462]

So if you are converting a medium canon 1 to medium canon 2, you have to pay extra IC ?

[@xrnmx]

@@mimile4462 yes and no. Yes it cost extra IC to make the medium cannon 2 than when not converting, but u also saves IC because u only pay 20% of the chassie cost. So in total, it is cheaper.

[@endsiegendsieg8971]

Also you can exploit it even harder with the resources and the way you save them with mediums and heavies. So I usually get my heavies to only cost chromium as Germany which means no steel or tungsten needed

[@JordanKD94]

Can you explain how to do that?

[@ganegui1753]

Dang! Super video as usual long or short they are always amazing! Would rly not want to fight you in a mp game ^^ You should try to make videos of that could be nice to see you running circles around the opposition with ur knowledge and strats ! Anyway super content !

[@nodamiaen]

oh amazing! finally i won't hold out on waiting until i get my perfect modules

[@FLUX.2226]

Tbh they should just get rid of the conversion tech, just like what they will do with flexible air wing sizes. Just makes balancing a hassle. Refitting will either be too weak, or exploitable.

[@honeybadger6275]

I think they need to quit worrying so much about balance.

[@PeterBarnes2]

Well, it's exploitable, yes, but numbers like these, 6.5/7.7, don't seem worrying to me.

[@FLUX.2226]

For me it's not so much about it being op, but about the "you need to do an inconvenient double production line to be the most efficient". It's like grinding commander traits to 95% and then stopping to avoid the XP penalty: Not necessary to do (in singleplayer), but you're weakening yourself by not doing it. It adds nothing to the game.

[@PeterBarnes2]

@@FLUX.2226 I mean, I already started using smaller duplicate lines for conversion so that I could continue to increase the volume of materiel I had while still bringing outdated stuff in line. (Which is maybe the obvious intended use.) This would just be that without making the main production line use equipment that's not to be used. Actually, the micro gets worse than you're suggesting, though: It's probably important that you turn the intermediate equipment off in the divisions, if the tanks you make for this are so cheap as to be actively bad in combat. Every division template, separately every time you get a new chassis/gun combination. (Unless you don't mind an 'Outdated Equipment in Production' alert flashing at you, and if you don't use that alert to help you manage the dozens of other equipment lines you need for an army. Then you could just mark the bad stuff outdated, and you'll get mostly not that on the front lines.) I think it's possible to make use of this knowledge without doing that much micro. Just produce cheaper but functional versions of the same tanks and upgrade them with conversion lines. Honestly, extra tank lines for conversions isn't much micromanagement, especially cause you can just select tank lines alone in the production menu.

[@MrNicoJac]

Due to lost production efficiency when switching over, it does not matter that the pure production number is slightly lower - it will _still_ take you more days to field the same amount of tanks (for the first X months, I haven't done the math). Nevertheless, I'm totally fine with ~900 upgraded tanks than ~1000 extra shitty tanks :)

[@marthvader14]

I wondered if it would make sense for Japan to first hire the Coast Defense naval designer to build cheap moduleless ships, then before the war switch to the Pacific Fleet designer and take the Refit Yards as naval spirit for a faster refit speed and then refit your fleet into good designs. Does this spare you production cost and let you have more quality ships?

[@marthvader14]

@Omar Khurshid Have neither Man the Guns nor No step back at the moment, so I can't test it myself 😅

[@martinnimcevic565]

In my opinion it's only worth the hassle if you have the hull researched but not the guns/torpedoes/radar etc.

[@tu35d4y2]

Can you do a video on naval refitting in 1.11.11? I've been watching all your videos after taking a long break and picking up NSB, and in earlier videos, you suggest that using Coastal Defense Fleet designer to make cheaper ships then refitting with Naval Refit Yards and a better designer is the optimal strategy. Is it still viable with the refit changes in 1.11.11? Thanks, and keep up the great work.

[@MrNicoJac]

Pretty sure I won't exploit, because it takes research time, and I usually have a few additional factories to spare. BUT it is GREAT that you can now start making tanks _before_ you have researched everything you want/need, _without_ wasting a lot of equipment! (that'll just clog your inventory in the mid and late game) VERY useful ^^

[@parkerwalden6614]

I had no idea that the conversion tech also affected production. I thought it only affected factories. Does it also affect naval conversion?

[@artmaker123546]

It doesn't affect construction at all lol

[@71Cloak]

It doesn't affect construction nor does it affect naval refitting. It only affects refitting tanks or planes or such.

[@Ruvaakdein]

@@71Cloak Why the hell did they put a factory icon on it if it doesn't affect factory conversion at all?

[@mainman879]

@@Ruvaakdein It's Paradox, when do they make sense.

[@AtlantiansGaming]

@@Ruvaakdein because IT IS A PARADOX!

[@extraordinarilycanine]

Something else to know about conversions that I only found out a little while ago, apparently they might be worse than once thought? Not sure how to explain it, but if your maximum conversion rate is 100 planes a day then you can only convert 100 planes of the _same type._ This means that if you have 50 convertible planes from Nation A and 50 convertible planes from Nation B, then you'll only convert 50 planes a day from *only* Nation A or Nation B until you've converted all the equipment of the same type before moving on to convert other equipment. Can you do a quick test to see if this is true or not and if I'm just seeing things?

[@MrNicoJac]

I think I've had the same happen. It just converts stuff in alphabetical or tier order. So when I had 100 captured French tanks and 10 Czech ones, if the French ones were higher in the list (for whatever reason) then it would first convert the French tanks into mine, and only then the Czech ones. (note: this was pre-NSB modular-tanks, and I was probably converting older medium tanks into SPGs)

[@zoroasper9759]

That's great, even if you don't necessarily use the increased production at least it wouldn't feel useless

[@derterwerteryt4224]

On what dc youre playing hoi4 mp?

[@Priorix1889]

Resource requirements are busted tho. Sometime converting a tank takes more resources than building them completely

[@guncolony]

Does this work if you make a "chain" of refitting as well? For example if you make a base tank with 9 engine/armor that only costs 2 steel, then refit with max armor upgrade (additional 1 steel + 2 chromium), then refit with a cannon (additional steel and tungsten, then add a squeeze-bore adapter etc, does that mean you can pay even less resources to get the same resulting tank?

[@Schmeethe88]

Yes and no. The only way to make that chain work would be if you did a set run of your original tanks, completely scrapped the line, refit into the next model, scrap the line etc. All the tanks you produce enter into the same category for further refits, so if you have 5 different runs of various tank types all in production at once, they'll all be grabbing models from among all the different ones you have set as outdated.

[@endsiegendsieg8971]

It is so so powerful has been and always will be

[@haruharii]

Oh my god thank goodness

[@bretthuff8971]

Does this no longer work? The IC cost of producing the old variant + the refit cost is greater than the production cost of the end tank.

[@erloriel]

World Ablaze has a much better system. It is similar to the old one, but does give you a few options. And is less easy to exploit.

[@ZiePe]

Very cool!

[@TheyCalledMeT]

noice! EXACTLY the difference is too good tbh .. i would've said refitting is extra work than building it from scratch .. so lets say 1.2 times the difference would make sense BUT .. i like the change! finally not drowning in outdated crappy tanks

[@ThomasTang-ky9zb]

I think air refit is currently having some problems with the new dlc, the cost seens to be the same as producing new planes.

[@lahrgago4742]

Is it possible to do that with captured Tanks?

[@javierperalta7648]

I never had any issue with producing enough tanks. It's just that you don't really need that many tanks in the first place, unless you are fighting in many different theaters where tanks are actually useful. Which isn't very common.

[@javierperalta7648]

@Omar Khurshid yes but they are so good that you don't need that many

[@MrNicoJac]

@Omar Khurshid I don't need more than 10 _amazing_ tank divisions. I usually go up to 20, by the late game. But by then I've already won, really.

[@raizors1331]

@Omar Khurshid Yes, best at winning harder. Just go infantry with cheap light tank recon + flame tank, not like AI can win that :)

[@krystiannona7141]

I think its no longer work definitely in pop up information price is bigger when you sum base and conversion. also tech is apply. but you can check maybe its bug.

[@SkYHawK2600]

How feasible if I just keep producing latest tech while convert old tech to new tech in the same time so I don't sit on my ass with 2k light 2

[@SadisNic]

Guy, 977 hours and I had no idea refitting was a thing. I love your videos, I love that you're being pushed on my home page so hard, and I hope you get out to more people because you've got some quality content my dude.

[@marthvader14]

I think you need the Death or Dishonor DLC

[@SadisNic]

@@marthvader14 I've had every DLC since I bought the game back in 2019.

[@MrNicoJac]

How can you miss a new button appearing in your production screen all of a sudden, for 977 hours straight? xD

[@SadisNic]

@@MrNicoJac I know how to use a Navy, I think that took about 900 of those hours lol

[@MrNicoJac]

@@SadisNic Hahaha, I feel ya... I spent _many_ hours running multiple setups and trying out different things. And then Man The Guns overturned all of it 😂 And then I did it all again, only to find out eventually that the best navy is Sub 3s with naval bombers 🥲

[@warrick1280]

Is this still working?

[@rdywach24869]

Which dlc to get the conversion tech?

[@71Cloak]

Death or dishonor

[@rdywach24869]

Thank you.

[@Aqueox]

I really wish production was different in this game. Germany produced more Stuggybuggies (the tanks with no turret, for the non-wehraboos) than any other armored vehicle in their arsenal. Try doing that in HOI4 and you'll be crushed. Tank variants are useless and the tank designer just exacerbates that viewpoint. There is no reason to create tank variants other than the most meta main battle tank. SPG? SPAA? TD's? Not worth the production sink and the awkwardness of trying to implement them into divisions.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

to be fair that was more because the Panzer III chassis was just a really easy chassis to build than the germans wanting the Stug, seriously they didn't choose the stug life, the stug life chose them. it took 150 000 man-hours to build a panther (before you include weapons or radios), it took only 2000 man-hours to build a late production panzer III (before weapons or radios). ie with the same number of builders in the same timeframe you can build 75 unarmed panzer IIIs for a single unarmed panther (assuming production materials is unlimited). [for reference a late model T-34 took 3700 man-hours to build before you include weapons]. ie they could meet demands quicker with panzer 3 hulls than with heavier hulls (i don't have numbers for panzer iv man-hours, but material costs are almost identical so the aditional total cost must come from aditional man-hours)

[@tijmenwillard2337]

They should at least make it really costly to refit armor and engine, including points as well as turrets (other than going to a fixed superstructure). Otherwise it's way too easy to exploit

[@floriansen6001]

That's how they did it with ships, right?

[@MrNicoJac]

Your production efficiency takes a hit when switching models. So it only becomes an exploit when your efficiency reaches its old level. Which takes...... long enough to be a net negative :)

[@raizors1331]

@@MrNicoJac not like Soviet and USA ever care about switching production lines, they just add new line and hit convert button and forget about it.

[@MrNicoJac]

@@raizors1331 Well, even then, the new line would start at a lower efficiency. So putting it on the end product would still be more beneficial, in the long run.

[@raizors1331]

@@MrNicoJac The thing is, you don't even need your efficiency to hit its old level to begin with Convert cost way less than making the full tank. So suppose you have all the stuff research for the "end product" at the same time, convert will always be faster than otherwise, efficiency hit or not. In fact, in the case of switching production, you have production relention which make convert even better. It start with higher efficiency than starting with "end product" after all ;)

[@giovannifavullo7065]

i'm still waiting to convert my old Meds into TDs like it was historrically done, i can't immagine why pdx still hasn't implemented this and when you convert the project it's no longer refit-worthy. IT WAS DONE EXTENSIVELY IN WW2 WHY????

[@71Cloak]

You can already do this. You have to use the same chassis type. If your old mediums are basic chassis then your td also has to be a basic chassis. Then you can convert them.

[@giovannifavullo7065]

@@71Cloak I do that and I can't

[@71Cloak]

It might also require one of the dlcs (I can't remember which one) so you'll have to check which ones you own and compare to the wiki if you should have it

[@giovannifavullo7065]

@@71Cloak I have oll dlc which add mechanics, I only miss the one with only FTs

[@memeking912]

So nothing got fixed? It seems like refitting still works?

[@71Cloak]

Refitting prior to 1.11.11 didn't use conversion cost at all. If you refit from a 15 ic tank to a 20 ic tank it would cost you the full 20 ic. They just need to remove the conversion speed bonus from the calculation and everything will work perfect.

[@memeking912]

@@71Cloak Prior to 1.11 tank refitting only saved resources, while now it saves IC as well?

[@mimile4462]

@@memeking912 I already saved IC if done properly (using the cheapest turret possible). It is just more powerful now.

[@MrNicoJac]

@@71Cloak Switching variants drops your production efficiency though, right? So, really, the conversion speed bonus does not make it _faster_ but sorta cancels out the malus... (at least in the short run, but let's be real, if someone is converting tanks for more than a year, they're doing things wrong anyways, lol)

[@71Cloak]

@@MrNicoJac you get 80% retention when switching variants. The drop is miniscule.

[@Hungaricus]

This is horrible. This thing defy logic and exploity. Cant we have a conversion system where yo cant produce the older model paralel? Or something to stop this?