Tanks 106: Stabilizers and Firing on the Move

[@QwertiusMaximus]

"Like many other tank related items, the navy led the way." Drachinifel: "The devil you say!"

[@robertl6196]

I tell my doctor that I am a stable weapons platform. He says no, I'm just a fat bastard.

[@redspecial4102]

At least you were declared to be 100% fat... I mean, fit. 😇

[@johnathanh2660]

You're lowering your CoG ;)

[@SonsOfLorgar]

Same...😅

[@grizwoldphantasia5005]

My high school chemistry teacher was a retired Navy Captain who had gone to the Academy in the 1920s, I believe, when gyroscopes were still somewhat new and mysterious to most people. He said they pranked a hotel bellhop by putting a hefty gyroscope in a suitcase, spun it up good, and marched straight into the lobby and set it down. After registering, the bellhop picked up the suitcase, and when he turned to head to the elevators, the dang thing resisted and his arm went wide and up.

[@jeffbangle4710]

The old Candid Camera TV show tried the same prank. However, by this time gyroscopes were common enough that every person they tried to prank immediately realized that the suitcase had a gyro in it.

[@Djamonja]

@@jeffbangle4710 I'm sure if they tried it again now, most people wouldn't know what a gyroscope is 😉

[@olegchaika7898]

How old are you...?

[@RedShocktrooperRST]

@@olegchaika7898 Hazarding a guess Griz is probably fairly old. A good portion of Nick's viewer base if I recall did come form World of Tanks, and that is a game more popular with an older demographic.

[@Harrier42861]

Warships have a huge space advantage on tanks, so no surprise the Navy figured out things first. An extra ton of fire control computer, an extra 20+ for remote power control (being very generous), even on a 2500 ton destroyer is not exactly a concern. An extra ton on a 30 ton tank is a much bigger deal, if you can even find somewhere to put the damned thing.

[@johnathanh2660]

Plus power concerns, plus the ability to pre-warn the stablizer of turns/inputs before they happen.

[@kemarisite]

That space advantage is the same thing I point out when the question comes up (every few months) on Drachinifel channel about using sabot, HEAT, or HESH against battleships.

[@ClackerJack]

@@kemarisite What Drachinifel video(s) talk about HEAT or HESH?

[@kemarisite]

@@ClackerJack he doesn't, but every few months someone in the comments will ask whether navies ever tried using SABOT, HEAT, or HESH to get through the armor.

[@ClackerJack]

@@kemarisite Ah thanks for clarifying.

[@Sedan57Chevy]

We're so lucky to have you to teach us. Better than anything on the History or Military Channel, even back in the "golden days" before aliens and pawn shops.

[@nrabe2]

Only 5 seconds in, I heard "tactical use"... now I cannot wait for even more awesome content!

[@CobraDBlade]

As far as I'm aware, there was only one vehicle with true 3-axis stabilization, a German prototype called "Erprobungsträger mit 3-achs Stabilisiertem Turm", or the "Turm 3" as War Thunder players would know it. A modified Leopard 1 chassis with a special turret that was 3-axis stabilized and the gun auto-loaded. It proved to be far too expensive and complicated, even for Germany, to field.

[@mbr5742]

Post WW2 germany went for "rugged and easy" over "complex" during the cold war. If you ever make it to Koblenz go to the WTS (the german army study collection) and look at the prototypes and the explanations why they did not put them into production despite working. Often "would require much more maintenance" is the reason. Then remember: The Cold War Bundeswehr was restricted to military operations IN Germany (and some very limited outside training grounds) so basically within 300-500km from the manufacturer and with a very very good transport network

[@datadavis]

@@mbr5742 Didnt stop them making cars which are cheaper to scrap than try to repair!

[@Malikyte13]

You know you've made something too complex if even the Germans say "Nein, mir geht's gut."

[@MM22966]

The end of your comment is peak tankery.

[@EliteAmmunition]

Bracing your left knee on the floor ready rack, your ass against the turret rin spinning around like an amusement ride while trying to throw a 105 into the breach that was also spinning but moving up and down was always fun. I was a driver, but we were always short crew, so I would have to play loader hated it but did it. On a side note on the M60, even on the move it's stabe system was meh. We would try to stop and shoot as much as possible. BUT this introduced a new issue. The damn M60 would bob after you came to a halt. So to mitigate this at about the 8 mph mark I would shift into neutral. This unloaded the suspension and got rid of the bobbing effect.

[@petesheppard1709]

Stopping smoothly for firing is a precise skill.

[@twiggledy5547]

How did you drive and load too?

[@datadavis]

@@twiggledy5547 He didnt, he made it up. No but seriously i think tank crews are supposed to train on all roles if one or more gets taken out..

[@michaelfrank2266]

@@datadavis You crew a tank other than your own so they have a full crew. Our cav unit used to pirate our scouts to flush out crews on the ranges.

[@viandengalacticspaceyards5135]

I somehow don't mind the Chieftain using ample verbiage. Haven't gotten tired of it yet.

[@catlee8064]

As someone whos had experience with firing on the move from Chieftain to CR1 then CR2....its like night and day, chieftain firing on the move was alot about luck, improved alot for CR1 and was totally amazing on CR2.

[@cathulhu-q7y]

and now it will be even better, as Cr3 is getting Leo2A7Vs FVS etc.

[@Rick_Sanchez_C137_]

It was good to see you at the Wildhorse Breakfast this morning. Me not getting notifications was an issue with “selecting ‘ALL’” in YT. I’ll watch all the videos I missed this week. Another great video. 👍

[@lk_ludikruc8358]

Love your content Chieftain! Keep it up. My dream is to meet you one day.

[@corvanphoenix]

He's exactly the same in person :)

[@TheChieftainsHatch]

Where are you?

[@cringepog2758]

I should like to comment that the dual axis sight stabilization and gun on target indicator are both features of the 1A33 fire control complex found on T-64B, first fielded in 1976

[@chrisblack6258]

Well the XM803 had that even earlier but the M1 didn't get that presumably due to cost concerns

[@cheesenoodles8316]

Fascinating, excellent subject. Still enjoy the classic "Wither the Autoloader".

[@peterdavid5034]

The Man is back!

[@IntrospectorGeneral]

First thought on reading 'tank stabilizers' was 'training wheels for tanks?' Patent application incoming!

[@mbr5742]

That is a tanker stabiliser. Also known as a "one wheel, two hand, three side tilting cargo plattform". Used when the tanker has tanked a few beer to many

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

They were used on the Tank Mark 1.

[@jamesdziegiel1041]

Looking forward to watching the FCS video whenever that might be

[@GameOpsDevStyle]

These lectures are pretty great! I am assuming that as well as being a former M1 commander, Mr The Chieftain also has experience as an instructor in the military.

[@TheChieftainsHatch]

Only insofar as I have to teach and mentor subordinates

[@steveturner3999]

It's a shame the tank crews weren't more familiar from the beginning with the stabilization system. Perhaps some encounters with Panzers early on would have turned out better. I've seen a video showing the checkout of the stabilization system and bore sighting of the 37mm on the M3 Stuart. Pretty impressive. I don't think any civilians actually understood the sophistication of WWII US tanks. Thanks for the information Chieftain!

[@Aethelgeat]

It is me and my medieval goggles, or does the Chieftain's shirt pattern look like a crowd of men in bascinets and aventails?

[@elimtevir1]

Um. Those brownies were special, weren't they?

[@Mountain-Man-3000]

Very interesting and informative.

[@jamessotherden5909]

This was very informative. Thank you.

[@TX-biker]

Well done

[@charliefoxtrott1048]

I see a Leopard serving a Beer on the move, I like

[@cedhome7945]

....so when I throw a beer can out the window of my truck at nextdoor's cat when I am moving my aim could be improved with gyro 🤔 but as I don't have one that makes me a gyro aiming device 🤣....only joking 😃

[@ashleybevis9769]

I no it a joke I mean who would waste a beer on a cat lol

[@ilsagutrune2372]

I love the fact that you mentioned the fact that 330 or so was far more normal than 1-2000 in NW Europe.

[@oldlifter530]

Thank you.

[@brealistic3542]

I bet tankers out for an unotherized beer run in their Bradley or M1 really appreciated tank stability systems.

[@andygray9285]

Great explanation thanks.

[@kabaleskus]

The myth of "consensual" stabilizer fitting Gunner "I consent" Commander "I consent" Isn't there somebody you forgot to ask? (Armorer)

[@steveyountz1757]

And all this time I thought it was telepathy. Nice job. 😎

[@TheArklyte]

Chat died on me in the end. Thx for the video and answers. I'll go google BONUS projectiles.

[@johnbaker1256]

Verrry interesting. Request: next time you are delving through the archives, can you see if you can find anything on proposed / protype engineering vehicles based on WW2's M3 or M4. Sort of AVRE equivalents. Several books mention them but with no photos or details. Thanks.

[@anaphylastiks]

This is how crazy bike riders can level out in a jump. Rev the bike up in gear.

[@bradyelich2745]

now i want to see trials bikes ride over a battleship . New Jersey let the riders free.

[@davidlund5003]

Thanks mate , that really was interesting & informative.

[@shooter2055]

Perturbations were a big deal when stabilizing the LGM-30G (Minuteman 3) system back in the early '80s. Ref: "piga level". Volcanoes blowing up in the Yucatan could and did ruin your day 20 meters below grade in North Dakota. ;-)

[@Wojtekpl2]

More please.

[@johnathanh2660]

Young Chieftain and not-as-young Chieftain on the same screen. You really shouldn't do this to us....

[@Ghostmaxi1337]

6:03 There was a german Vehicle Erprobungsträger Turm 3 Achs Stabilisiert or something, which was a test bed for a 3 axis stabilized vehicle.

[@MM22966]

Centurion gunners must have been awesome at thumb-wars!

[@keithrosenberg5486]

And the laser gyros don't have spinning things to mechanically fail.

[@KevinSmith-ys3mh]

True, a ring laser gyro is smooth as glass when properly running, but electronics fail also. We had a glitchy one installed on our FCS in the late 80s, it made for an "interesting "😮 year until we finally found the problem. Cat-like reflexes of youth kept me intact. Thing was pulled from the test & eval program, limited production and parts support.

[@IsaacKuo]

I'd like some discussion of stabilization of remote weapon systems. Many are not stabilized at all, but these RCWS will be more important as anti-drone defenses going forward. Also, it's possible that guided and top attack munitions might not need stabilized guns in order to effectively fire on the move. Strix top attack mortar rounds, for example, could be fired from a 120mm mortar without stabilization. Or maybe something similar to the 76mm DART, modified to do a high gee top attack "dive". Or something like BONUS/SMArt155/SADARM, where the main gun shoots an EFP munition that falls and spins, scanning a cone to attack the top of a target.

[@KevinSmith-ys3mh]

Good points, especially for anti-drone work as that's become increasingly clear as necessary for survival of anything that can't hide. My counter points are that a stabilised launcher (with modern FCS) enables fires on the move, increasing survivability; and use of lower cost munitions, which will be more available and in sustained quantities. There are multiple examples of highly capable weapons that never get deployed (either at all, or in useful quantities) because of costs! A US Navy DDG class, and T-14 Armata tanks for example. You can love the Tech, but hate the bill$ !😢

[@Bird_Dog00]

As I understand it, the vertical stabiliser used on the M3 and M4 was most usefull in reducing the deleay between the tank coming to a stop and the gunner being able to fire on a fire halt. Am I correct? And if so, is this as I suspect due to the stabiliser reducing the gun's vertical movement - e.g. the gun bouncing up and down along with the rest of the tank - thus letting the gun settle faster upon halt?

[@glenndean6]

Got to try the thumb controller on the Ajax recently, and I agree with you (American bias, of course). It also proved I'm old, because Ajax needs a "y-axis invert" setting.

[@iivin4233]

I can't wait for a part two, but I shall.

[@1991apfel]

6:19 well we Germans got your back... Checkout the Turm 3 prototype: 3 Axxis Stabilisation on a Leopard 1 Chassis...

[@Grendelmk1]

REMEMBER THE CANT! Wait, wrong TV show...

[@anaphylastiks]

Hold zero while running. Good practice.

[@GARDENER42]

Missed this as I was deep into hypohystericalhistory's remastered part 1 of the Iraq war. Now that's done& the wine's poured, I'll settle down.

[@Daddo22]

I remember from somewhere a mention of the Soviet BT series having a system like you described that decoupled sight and gun elevation and fired the gun when the gunner (I don't remember if the commander in BT is also gunner or loader) was holding the trigger and the gun aligned with the sight, but I was never able to confirm this with a reliable source. I'd appreciate it if anyone has additional information on the topic.

[@johnfisk811]

Excellent squeeze into the time scale. BTW it was not perhaps made clear but the first British tanks did not decide to use a shoulder pad stabilisation but rather the gun came from the navy complete with it. These guns were for anti torpedo boat work and the target would be running at speed, yawing, rolling and heaving with the sea whilst the 6 Pounder was doing the same on board it’s own ship with a different heave, roll and yaw. The tank had an equivalent problem (except bunkers do not move about unlike torpedo boats) so applied the given naval solution. In later British tanks the result was that the gun had to be balanced to let the gunner’s shoulder, legs etc. move the gun about freely and not squash him down with a breech heavy gun nor squash him up against the turret ceiling. That required the balance point to be well back as the breech was the heavy bit. Thus the mantlet, carrying the balance point, had to be well back too. As the guns got bigger the mantlet had to be inside the turret as humans are only so strong and squash easily. The gun was taking up too much space with the breech so far back. Everyone else simply put the balance point further forward and held it mechanically and gave the gunner a mechanical elevation device.

[@ilsagutrune2372]

Floaty things are dangerous

[@geodkyt]

So, the delay is why gunners shout, "On the way!" instead of "Firing!" ?

[@canuck600A]

Is there any info on shoulder injuries caused by those shoulder stabilised gun?

[@Zombine45]

I'm a bit curious what the British changed the gunner firing line to? "Firing soon"?

[@TheChieftainsHatch]

Just "Firing"

[@jimbrown2769]

What does the Challenger gunner say now when he fires with a possible delay?

[@TheChieftainsHatch]

"Firing"

[@McRocket]

I had a stabilization system installed in my brain and it has 'stabilized' parts of my life massively. When times get rough - my mentality always stays 'on target'. Unfortunately, it has done nothing whatsoever for me when my life is stable.

[@TheBks573]

So the Tracking Point sniper system is basically an advanced miniaturized stabilizer?

[@30LayersOfKevlar]

What about doctrinal differences, i.e. French early cold war tanks lacking stabilization.

[@guppiapfeljustleopardthing8756]

6:19 Sad Turm III noises

[@jerrysolomon7623]

Dear Chieftain when did US Armor force start using the hesh round

[@kemarisite]

I believe the short answer is "never". Even the one vehicle that really used it, the M728 combat engineer vehicle, called hit HEP (High Explosive, Plastic).

[@davidgoodnow269]

Don't know when the U.S. _started_ using HEP, but it and obscuration smoke were the rounds most used by M48 tanks in Vietnam, followed by incendiary smoke.

[@chrisblack6258]

I think the first tank HEP round for the US was an 90mm HEP. It's been there since at latest 1960.

[@chrisblack6258]

​​​@@kemarisiteHEP is exactly HESH but for the US Army

[@jsma9999]

Carrying Beer as well

[@ferallion3546]

Good thing no one knows the departments of floaty things developed stabilization to compensate for post liberty call “effects”.

[@mbr5742]

With all the "floaty things": Will we get a co-op similar to "firing all the guns on an M4"? Say "firing all the guns on an Iowa"?

[@kemarisite]

There was an anecdote from Vietnam about a platoon of five M48 medium tanks detailed to a spot along the coast to help the Navy interdict coastal smuggling. They used infrared searchlights to line up on the smuggling sampan, then switch to white light, ranged, and fired. The Navy ship further out to sea reported they "looked like a light cruiser when they opened up".

[@katherinespezia4609]

So what do British gunners say instead of "firing now"?

[@TheChieftainsHatch]

"Firing"

[@osmacar5331]

Turm III. Funnily enough, learnt from WT. Also gyroscope physics are baffling to me as well. I do however know how to implement them so i don't need to know the details just the equation for mass and rippems.

[@TheArchaos]

Hydraulics use flow, not pressure.

[@pyeitme508]

Wow

[@ssyn6626]

Wouldn't say a hover tank not have this problem much?

[@DeaconBlu]

😳🤯🙀🙀

[@tankdriver67m64]

I assume Chieftan-being of Irish descent- has seen “The Derry Girls” (funniest thing I’ve seen in a long time) so……why to the put the word “wee” in front of ever other word?

[@hoosierfarmkid]

There is one 3 axis stabilizer I can think of is the German Turm III protoype (actually "Erprobungsträger mit 3-achs Stabilisiertem Turm" if my googlefu is to be believed) based on the Leopard 1. And a menace in war thunder

[@mhh7544]

MBTs are dying breed .

[@merlinwizard1000]

2nd, 1 February 2025

[@user-ug7fk2js2x]

Erprobungsträger mit dreiachsig stabilisierter Turm III F is about the only tank I can think of with a three axis stabilization system.

[@jamesgoularte8460]

the stab on the m60 was terrible

[@TheChieftainsHatch]

It may have been, but it was still far better than tanks like T62

[@chrisblack6258]

In what way? I'm curious about it

[@v4skunk739]

Cope cages are far more innovative. *cough*