WE DISAGREE ON DARMOK! | TNG Reaction & Review

[@foolwriter]

From now on, whenever you two disagree like this over a rating, the line is "Josh and Alex at Darmok." 😉

[@Ansible1000]

They literally communicated like Tamarians at the start of the episode. Alex and Josh started saying ‘Enemy Mine’ which is a story archetype exactly like the Tamarians use! I jumped in excitement when they did that and came crashing down when they didn’t pick up on their own emulation of the language!

[@ammaleslie509]

@@foolwriter nice! Let's start using it!!!

[@Azmodian]

"Josh and Alex, about Dathon. Kiteo, his eyes closed.. Shaka, When the falls fell!

[@Vulcanerd]

Josh and Alex at Ohio!!

[@Windrave]

More like "Josh and Alex watch Darmok". 😉

[@Rangsk]

Josh, his D grade spoken. The fanbase, their torches lit.

[@winkles2314]

Josh, his IQ low. (Jk mate 😉)

[@michaelconnor1542]

The "fanbase" is wrong. This episode is stupid, and I remember the fanbase agreeing with me, when this came out.

[@peregrine5327]

@@michaelconnor1542 You are entitled to your deeply incorrect opinion. Darmok is one of the top-tier mythical episodes of the show.

[@Rangsk]

@@michaelconnor1542 In 1991 it was not easy to get a general feeling from the "fanbase". Instead we relied on friends and family reaction, which is perhaps why your personal experience varies. My friends and family have always been fond of the episode, even when it first aired. What is objective is noted in the "Reception" section of Wikipedia page for the episode, where it is a highly regarded episode, even by contemporary critics. And today, it very often makes it near the top of best TNG episode lists. You are, of course, welcome to your personal opinion. I've yet to find any piece of media that is universally liked.

[@LadyBeyondTheWall]

@@michaelconnor1542 Everyone I knew absolutely loved it. 🤷🏻‍♀

[@Tonyblack261]

I introduced my late wife to Star Trek. She was a professor of English Language and this episode really spoke to her - one of her favourites.

[@belkyhernandez8281]

It's a great episode. And more realistic than the instant communication with random species.

[@kwebb121765]

The first time I saw this, I was studying the epic of Gilgamesh in my college mythology class. So, that episode really clicked with me.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

Everyone who watches this has that forehead-slapping moment of "of course!" when Picard figures out they talk in memes.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

@@belkyhernandez8281 Both sides had universal translators, but word-for-word translation wasn't enough. That made it interesting.

[@sbs3000]

As the holder of an English degree, "Darkmok" is also one of my favorite episodes. It's reasonable to infer that a deep love for the power of words and language would certainly enhance one's enjoyment.

[@aestheticalrose4553]

He was saying the same metaphors over and over because it was an attempt for Picard to learn the language. If they were using a ton of different metaphors Picard would never pick up the language. When you’re learning a new language, your teacher doesn’t just start throwing at you all the different words of the language lmao.

[@TheElderBlotch]

Darmok is actually my #1 favourite Next Generation episode. Beautiful, touching distillation of Star Trek's core ethos "to seek out new life and new civilisations." The memes are great, but even without them, I'd give it S-tier. No hate when I say this, but Shaka when the walls fell!

[@CaminoAir]

It's my single favorite TNG episode as well. The A and B plots are entirely connected. The script is of a very high standard for TNG, as is the physical production. The in-episode and meta aspects of story telling as a universal means of connection (for a show whose pop culture fame is mostly based on that already).

[@houseofsledge6891]

It's in my top 10 episodes of all Trek.

[@alexandretorres5087]

Number 5 best Star Trek episode by the Playboy magazine. Of all series. Above Arena, that is number 6, and followed by Yesterday's Enterprise. I have to say these must be at the top, they are right.

[@TahoeNevada]

Temba, his arms wide!

[@TerribleEnglish]

But, if you think about it, their 'language' is ludicrous. They're using English sentences which they clearly understand, but don't understand English. 😅

[@seraphinaaizen6278]

What I like about this episode is that it didn't treat the audience like they were stupid. You learned the language along with Picard. Because you had that experience with Picard, you knew what he and the alien officer were saying during that exchange at the end of the episode. And the episode trusted you to be able to do that.

[@SophieGreene91]

@@seraphinaaizen6278 this is one of the best episodes of the entire Star Trek Saga my daddy got me to watch this when I was a little girl back in 2000 I'm not really mad at Josh everyone has a right to his or her opinion of course! Lots of good regards to you Sophie 🌷

[@xtremejay2000]

@@SophieGreene91 Except Josh is an asshole that has told many people their opinion is wrong. Don't show him the same courtesy and say he has a right to his opinion.

[@Ansible1000]

Josh has complained whenever a technobabble plot has eaten an opportunity for good acting, worldbuilding or character development. Here we have an episode that is all about an amazing sci-fi premise based on reality, the technobabble is minimal (they put a field on the planet making our OP transporters useless, and they’ll shoot anyone who flies down)’ It showcased Riker’s ability as a captain working what appears to be a hostage situation, Word as a tactical officer, Data and Troy having a rare team-up and a rare opportunity for Troy’s empathic powers to be really useful, plus an appearance by Da Chief! This is Star Trek at its best. Josh, his mind closed. His grade absurd.

[@TheDougMan]

Ansible, eyes uncovered, well spoken.

[@anomaly217]

My favorite TNG episode

[@monkeymox2544]

You missed it being a Picard-heavy episode. Watching Picard do his thing, watching Stewart act, they both always elevate an episode a whole grade.

[@this.is.a.username]

whenever reactors cry about "technobabble" this is what i see. =========context clues====>>>> . \(o.0)/

[@iKvetch558]

Isn't Josh the one of them who said he turned off Dr Strangelove half way through because he could not stand watching it? I believe that explains a lot about why he rated this episode so low. 😉

[@aatragon]

As a Communications major waaay back in college in my background, this ep. is one of my favorites. I'm always fascinated by the progress of language, particularly across barriers. I have a strong emotional reaction when Picard "gets it" and when he tells the Gilgamesh story to comfort Dathon. Respect and RIP Paul Winfield.

[@eskreskao]

Well, Josh is entitled to his wrong opinion, I guess.

[@Naglfarius]

Funny to see his denial when 75% voted for S Tier. ^^

[@kendyer8761]

@@eskreskao he's correct though.

[@The_Smegma_Mastermind]

​@@kendyer8761Nah, lmao.

[@dupersuper1938]

@@kendyer8761 So not.

[@GopherBaroque61]

@@kendyer8761 No, Josh *_IS NOT_* correct.

[@AnthonyFrisko]

A D!? Are your out of your vulcan mind!? This is one of the greatest TNG episodes of all time. Shaka When the walls fell.

[@catsabotage3362]

Romulan mind more like...

[@majkus]

The irony is that Josh doesn't realize that he is speaking and thinking like the Tamarians. "Oh, this is Arena!" "It's Enemy Mine, but not as good." It's as if he missed the whole point of the story.

[@targetaudience]

Because I understand what a metaphor is doesn’t make the episode good lol

[@patsk8872]

That is actually hilarious LOL! But I do agree that the metaphor language is a stretch because if they can understand the words in the metaphor, why can't they use them more "normally" to communicate with other races. But I forgive that bit because the idea and a lot of the payoff is good. For me it's probably A- or B+

[@SeraphArmaros]

@@patsk8872 You make the assumption that the individual words themselves still have meaning, but their language evolved from reference and metaphor to the point where the metaphors themselves were the words.

[@nathanielreik6617]

@@patsk8872 The entire race has one single way they communicate with each other and then they encounter another group, that basically says the same words but in a completely different way. It'll take time to learn each others ways of speaking. I mean just look at US vs. UK. Both speak English but there are plenty of slang words and idioms that are different that it can sometimes cause difficulties. This is that to the extreme.

[@spencersholden]

@@targetaudiencebut it is a good episode. One of the best.

[@derekramsaroup3883]

This episode is about as Star Trek as it gets ....Picard's story of Gilgamesh is always very touching..

[@Daneoid81]

I tear up every time when Datha is telling the story of Darmok and Jalad, it's just so beautiful seeing something we take for granted like communication and expression being established and shared.

[@LadyBeyondTheWall]

Boring?... Boring?? Picard, his palm on his face!

[@andrewshannon4950]

Really, Josh isn't wrong that it drags a little in the beginning; the balance of time spent not understanding, kinda understanding, understanding is a little off. Like, it's A or S tier, even without the band shirts, but there is some space for tweaking presentation

[@LadyBeyondTheWall]

@@andrewshannon4950 Even if it drags a bit, it definitely doesn't deserve a D! lol

[@odysseusrex5908]

@@andrewshannon4950 I disagree. So often is Star Trek, the aliens aren't really all that alien, they just look funny. This is a true first contact story with genuine aliens. Watching both of them making achingly good faith efforts to understand and be understood is fascinating.

[@andrewshannon4950]

@@odysseusrex5908 That's not disagreeing, because you haven't said anything about the pacing. Whether or not the idea and story are any good is a separate question from how the episode is cut together.

[@thakard]

Some people talk about how a culture could never use metaphor as a language base. I have never understood this argument. We have examples in current day languages that people use every single day. Elephant in the room. Cold Feet. Rosetta Stone. Silver Bullet. Mary Sue. Ground Zero. Catch-22. Kobayashi Maru. All of these are metaphors that one person could use towards another and indeed have a conversation. But, if you don't know the references they make little sense. The word apple has no meaning until you show me the object that word represents. This doesn't even take into count things like Rhyme based Cockney.

[@token1371]

*Darmok* is an exceptional *S* episode. Not because of the creature's design, but how a common enemy can forge a friendship. Imo the metaphoric language represents ANY communication barrier between two individuals who desire commonality.

[@Zikar]

I never thought I'd see a Star Trek fan that didn't at least appreciate Darmok. It's probably the most Star Trek the series can be, a story about cultures trying to learn to communicate and through ultimate sacrifice open a door to that communication.

[@andrearawlings420]

One of my favourite TNG episodes. In my opinion it sort of encapsulates everything that Star Trek is about.

[@artboymoy]

Honestly this is what Star Trek is all about. It's in my Top 10 TNG episodes. I remember thinking it was going to be Arena, but then they took it in a different direction with the Tamarian wanting to communicate. Great guest star by Paul Winfield, may he RIP and Ashley Judd as Leffler. I just love this episode so much.

[@helloweener2007]

Josh and Alex watching Star Trek Josh, his eyes closed, when the walls fell. Alex, his eyes open on the night of his joining.

[@alura5376]

@@helloweener2007 and I understood everything you just wrote.

[@xtremejay2000]

@@alura5376 Josh didn't though..

[@LockeTheCole]

Something some people don't seem to get even after multiple watches is that the universal translator is working here. It just CAN'T change the metaphors so the humans understand, it only translates the language it can. So 'His arms wide' 'his eyes open' etc is not part of their language, it's what the translator is telling them they said.

[@DP-hy4vh]

Josh's rating: Picard, his face palmed.

[@kwebb121765]

LOL!

[@coulsonintahiti]

Not to take sides, but this is one of my favorite episodes in all of Star Trek. Not just for its unique premise but also the idea that aliens and us would have incompatible language structure.

[@g8kpr3000]

This is probably the #1 quoted Star Trek episode ever... lol

[@MrDeathpilot]

Seth Meyers even made a reference to this episode. Google "Seth Meyers Darmok"

[@headrockbeats]

#2. #1 is Best of Both Worlds, "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

[@jasont2986]

Spell Darmok backwards and you get Komrad (comrade). The entire episode is about meeting new comrades.

[@keithbk]

Stinking commies... they're everywhere across the galaxy! ;)

[@Vulcanerd]

RIP Paul Winfield, 20 years gone, who portrayed Dathon and Captain Terrell from ST II

[@Retrovorious]

2:07 The translator is already on, but it can’t translate metaphors because it has no knowledge of their cultural stories.

[@russellharrell2747]

‘Woah, slow down, we don’t know the lore!’

[@miller-joel]

The translator doesn't have any cultural references about new species, ever.

[@meganega123]

@@Retrovorious Troi even specifically points this out. "Juliet on her balcony"

[@this.is.a.username]

@@miller-joel the point is that the universal translator can start sussing all that out pretty quickly when encountering a new species, but the Tamarians are just SO deep into metaphor that it makes translation impossible. even on earth if you translate "this shirt is green, that shirt is red" into other non english languages, the translation is usually direct, but tamarians would use some metaphor for even such a simple example.

[@Markus117d]

​@@this.is.a.username It's not the words that are the problem. It's the context behind the words.. eg Temba his arms wide. The words are translated. But not the cultural context..

[@Vincornelis]

There aren't enough sciencefiction stories where the difficulty of communication comes up. This is an episode you really have to watch twice. At first Tamarian seems like nonsense but once you understand how it works everything the captain says makes sense.

[@artboymoy]

I enjoyed watching the Tamarians talking back and forth after "learning"their language.

[@Drakoni23]

That's why I love this episode and why Arrival is the only "alien invasion" movie I've ever loved to watch.

[@ElOroDelTigre]

The poem of Giglamesh is the first real epic poem, that is, the first one that belongs to the epic genre, detailing Gilgamesh journey. It's way older than Greek stories, it's an old Sumerian work of art.

[@brettg274]

IiRC, it’s the earliest known written story in history.

[@CrankyGrandma]

And it’s an amazing story of friendship through some weird stuff. We learned it in high school. Sometimes I feel like the professor in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. “What do they teach them in these schools?” Sigh

[@fakecubed]

@@CrankyGrandma The classics aren't taught anymore in Western schools, because it's "racist" to have a shared Western canon as the foundation for your society.

[@tbirdparis]

@@fakecubed wait, the Sumerians are considered Western now?

[@fakecubed]

@@tbirdparis The Epic of Gilgamesh is considered part of the Western literary canon. Whether or not you consider Sumeria part of the West is up to you, but their influences on the West's culture are undeniable. If you know of any ways in which Sumeria influenced Eastern literary canon, I'd be curious to hear your theories.

[@JAF729]

I don't get how anyone can give this a D, it is pretty much everything that makes Star Trek TNG great.

[@Whiskey61]

Have you met hipsters?

[@Markus117d]

Not enough pointless explosions & action probably.. 🙄

[@miguelvelez7221]

I don't agree at all that Riker is too agressive or foolish. He DOESN'T go with Worf's assessments or plans immediately because he wants a peaceful solution but he is primarily concerned with Picard's safety and if we all remember (And should for future reference HINT-HINT) Riker is VERY protective of the crew and especially his commanding officers and that's probably even more intense with Picard. Seeing as how the core issue was communicating Riker struggling while figuratively blind to what is happening isn't a mark against his character, intelligence or competence in my opinion.

[@MissMarchHare]

The actor who portrays the alien captain is Paul Winfield who played the Captain of the USS Reliant in Star Trek: Wrath of Khan. Picard regaling the dying captain with the story of Gillgamesh & Enkidu (of 2 strangers who become friends thru shared hardship) is done so well.

[@Stephanie-StarTrekFan-is-Muji]

Yes, Captain Terrell in TWOK

[@jonathandonley3299]

It's fitting in a way that the late Paul Winfield was given two noble deaths in Star Trek. Sacrificing himself to save Kirk in TWOK and dying for a chance to make contact here.

[@this.is.a.username]

the venerable General Richard Franklin, father of Dr Stephen Franklin, on Babylon 5

[@Cobheran]

Literally a classic episode of Star Trek. Literally played to us in high school as an example of metaphor usage in English class. Think about it some though. With our culture of references and memes and how much humor is based on references to other things, this could be seen as a warning of being incomprehensible without context and how ineffective that kind of communication can be. Not because of lack of knowing the words or how to use them, but due to needing cultural knowledge and history as part of communication. D? Josh's judgement, his fans enraged

[@MsAlexisPiazza]

Shaka… when the walls fell

[@Ol-T1864]

Played this for ESL class. The little Korean kids fell in love with start trek. They started repeating the intro at the screen after they saw this one.

[@todd3458]

total classic

[@magafett596]

Josh, his eyes closed.

[@flotilha935]

😂😂😂😂

[@hemmojito]

Josh when the grade fell😔

[@miller-joel]

Didn't even know who Paul Winfield was. What a fail. 🙄

[@Spock4771]

People need to stop attacking people when they disagree on a episode

[@hemmojito]

@@Spock4771 all in good fun🙂... at least concerning myself😃

[@Adam_Le-Roi_Davis.]

This for me is a 'S Tier' Episode and more so at the top of the S Tier ranking, it's one of my favourite of all the TNG Series. "Josh and Alex at the new studio", this is now Target Audience lore. 😄

[@GopherBaroque61]

The *_VAST MAJORITY_* of Star Trek fans believe that Darmok is an *_S-Tier_* episode. I feel sorry for Josh not being able to understand what the episode was really about. Just like a joke, if I have to explain it, then you're just going to miss the point anyway.

[@Lucky-ll8mp]

Josh, not understading the assignment. Alex, understanding the reference 😅

[@jamesalexander5623]

Personal Story about Communication : In High School German Class we had an Exchange Teacher and in talking to her I said "Well on the other hand we could do it this way!" .... and she repeated what I had just said but she looked at both her hands, one to the other and again said "On - The - Other - Hand"! .... Even People on the same Planet sometimes have trouble Communicating!

[@redemption2]

Bethesda references this episode in every game they make. In Skyrim, in one of the early sidequests, youll meet a bear hunter named Temba Wide-Arms.

[@cleverlydevisedmyth]

omg I never noticed that LOL. I thought that name sounded familiar when I gave him a potion.

[@riv4196]

Tanagra town in fallout 76 was the last i noticed. I don't think i caught one in starfield, come to think of it.

[@BaronesaReturns]

Josh, Shaka, when the walls fell This is one of my absolute favorite episodes.

[@MsAlexisPiazza]

Shaka indeed

[@nickmanzo8459]

This is one of the best episodes of this season. It is the epitome of Star Trek: Strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations.

[@dweez05]

This episode is the essence of Star Trek. It's not about the pew pew but about exploration resulting in first contact (or in this case first communications). I agree with some others who pointed out that a language that exclusively uses metaphors would not be realistic, but I can overlook that because I love the idea of trying to understand one another without the magic of a universal translator and slowly making breakthroughs.

[@sphinx3r]

Not only is this an S-tier episode, it's at the very top of the S-rank. It's also received awards for highlighting the issues in communication between cultures.

[@jamesmoore4003]

What do the different episode grades stand for? I must have missed where they first talked about that….i know S is the best I think but what do the letters stand for?

[@mademedothis424]

I do like that the guys are unable to understand each other and the fanbase in the episode about being unable to understand each other. It's fun.

[@goyhoipolloi]

And deservedly so. Because of my profession I've had to study ancient Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, ancient Ugarit, German, French, and Latin. As someone who has had to wrestle with them with all the uncertainties and questions that go along with language studies, this episode has always struck me as brilliant! Language and culture always seem strange to someone from another language and culture but learning then gives us insight into how others think, govern their societies and families, and how they think and what they prioritize. The notion that a people could speak in metaphor is not outlandish or silly. It's fascinating. This remains a tremendous episode.

[@flotilha935]

​@@jamesmoore4003 it's an internet thing... Search for "Tier Ranking" on Google. There is a site and the standard list uses those letters, so it became the norm.

[@seanrichardson7295]

@@jamesmoore4003 They don't stand for anything, but (relevant) they only make sense if you have the cultural context of having been in a school which grades based on letters, otherwise they would seem to be completely arbitrary.

[@shallowgal462]

Did you notice Ashley Judd in engineering? This is one of my all-time favorites and the first episode of _TNG_ I ever saw: I was hooked! The first few times I've watched, I cried or teared up when Dathon died. Now I still get a chill.

[@StevenJShow]

Ashley Juggs? Hey-O!

[@TheWrongHands18]

She comes back as a main character in a later episode

[@StevenJShow]

Ashley Juggs?

[@brauliob]

Ensign Robin Leffler, I believe.

[@shallowgal462]

@@TheWrongHands18 We're NOT supposed to let them see spoilers!

[@ArtificialDuality]

"by the time... I was too checked out..." So your low score is primarily because of your own attention span.

[@targetaudience]

Nope! Nice cope though

[@OrdinProds]

they're watching every single Star Trek episode and movie ever made in order.. i don't think short attention spans do that tbf

[@ArtificialDuality]

@@targetaudience I literally just watched your explanation. This is essentially what you said, twice. I wouldn't call summarizing your words cope.

[@soeveth]

This episode and one later this season is what science-fiction is all about. It not about the monster, or the fights or even character development. Its makes you think about things you normally dont think about.

[@alexandretorres5087]

Good call. We are addicted to character development, as if only that matters in narrative. It does not. I guess the problem is that every writing book stress that TOO MUCH. Nowdays we have tons of series with lots of character development that are completely uninteresting

[@soeveth]

@@alexandretorres5087 And dont take me wrong all the extra stuff is nice and adds to the story. But Sci-Fi at its core is about exploring our own humanity through the lens of the story being told. Great Sci-fi keeps you thinking about the story and questions our own self and how our "hero's" as you put it, over come the obstacles they are faced with. It not what the hero's will do, but what would you or I do in that situation. If you want to think about it as character development its not the on screen characters development but our own that drives Sci-Fi. Its just that Sci-Fi truly is the best medium for it as it allows us to question everything that makes us human.

[@Kunsoo1024]

This.

[@alura5376]

@@soeveth but, there IS character development in what we learn of the Tamarian Captain: he starts inscrutable and confusing to a point of irritation, but we learn, especially on a rewatch, he was committed to making this work, even against the counsel of his first officer’s advice, even costing his own life to manage communication with other species. For a character who gets to speak only the same phrases over and over, that’s a lot to learn in such limited time.

[@redmatter]

What’s crazy is… memes didn’t exist when this episode aired. But it might be they introduced an alien race based on memes. More strangely, one of the first meme images ever to appear on the internet was “Shaka, when the walls fell.” It’s a strange art imitates life imitates art thing.

[@VolrinSeth]

Memes did exist, just not as internet memes.

[@ThePendragon1998]

That's exactly it. They communicate by verbally describing memes.

[@geoffyuendesign]

*Shocked Pikachu*

[@makasete30]

I’ve still seen random meme comments on Reddit and social media of this episode all these years later, and it’s funny to see comments from younger people have no idea what they mean.

[@ammaleslie509]

@@redmatter "memes" did exist. They are the core of great literature, poetry, in-group language in every profession, every group of marginalized or oppressed folk, and even among long standing groups of friends. Sometimes the language is used to keep outsiders out, to communicate without others knowing what you mean. Right now on Bluesky and Twitter and chatrooms there are people having entire conversations using words and pictures that would have been "incomprehensible" 40 years ago but have practically turned into the language of the internet. Josh rating Darmok? Picard. His face palmed.

[@CrimsonRoseDancer]

In my Intro to Linguistic Anthropology course we learned about a culture (I can’t remember the name) that essentially speak in allegory like this. As an Anthropologist (I now work in the field) we strive, not always successfully, to not view other cultures ethnocentrically, by having the “our way is the best way” mentality. It’s hard but this is a good example of that.

[@dainbramage781]

Be thankful the college professors who teach language arts and psychology classes based on this episode aren't here to grade you on your lack of understanding, Josh. 😋

[@DieselxRobot]

Thats exactly how I first saw this episode and was introduced to TNG, a college class 10 years ago

[@fightingidiocy7724]

Josh is correct. It's crap. The idea that a species could achieve warp drive by use of metaphorical communication is laughable.

[@lestatdelc]

@@fightingidiocy7724 - No. He is not "correct". He (and you can have your personal opinion) but this episode is far form "crap". It is consistently hailed by critics and the fan base as one fo the best in the franchise. So you are simply wrong to call it crap.

[@thewinner7382]

People in academia are some of the dumbest people you could meet. I know several.

[@SPVFilmsLtd]

As a speaker of 4 languages, DARMOK captures metaphorically how language and understanding works across cultures better then you might think, especially if you only speak 1 language. But it's worth addressing that DARMOK marks that rare kind of Trek episode where the idea is king, where the setting is used to explore things in philosophy and science with characters and drama taking a back seat. You will find a LOT of Trek fans get excited about this, but also a lot of Trek fans have seen more Trek than you have at this stage and so stuff like DARMOK or WHO WATCHES THE WATCHERS become truly significant even when they're not eps that serve the characters well at all. I suspect you'll find future "big idea" episodes just as tricky to understand why the fan majority gives them S ratings. Generally speaking I think it's fair to say that, once you've seen all the Trek shows, the character drama is not what most Trekkies come back for. In TNG they come back for the big idea and big philosophy episodes. That's why DARMOK is beloved. And yeah if you're bi lingual or tri lingual the stuff hits way harder, just like if you're versed in Shakespeare or classic literature a lot of Trek hits harder.

[@ThomasReeves-s7u]

I guess "Who Watches the Watchers" is beloved but for me it was kind of "inspirational literature for atheists." If you're an atheist I can see how it would make you "feel seen" and appreciated, but if not an atheist it's irrelevant or offputting. (I don't think these two are religious, but they give me more an "agnostic" or "religions are fine, but not my bag" kind of vibe.) Although the exploration of anthropology in it I do find of some value.

[@mikebell2112]

I used to hate this episode because of the repetition but now the Picard scenes, the sacrifice of the other captain and the way the Tamarians so viscerally react to a phrase they understand makes me tear up. Also that the Tamarians communicate based on the emotions of their mythos, something relayed to them perhaps as children around a campfire, which then they never lose touch with, gives them a certain nobility and even vulnerability.

[@minywheats]

Episode is S-Tier and something I still think about from my childhood. This helped me see that others have their own histories and dreams. It really brought home the idea that Im not alone in the universe even if I dont understand others.

[@Randall1001]

Cried like a baby when the Tamarian captain died. And again when Picard told the Tamarian first officer. One of the best TNG episodes ever. Spawned a billion memes.

[@Jim-Mc]

More character development in one 45 minute tv episode than most major films today.

[@Drawkcabi]

This is the high concept season of a high concept show. They are going to be trying many scenarios and see how far they can explore new ideas. Sometimes these will land and sometimes they won't and sometimes it will happen with the same episode with different people.

[@ammaleslie509]

@@Drawkcabi I know. This is making me worry about whether they will be bored with some of the other classics that are coming up in this season...

[@silikon2]

Dathon's xo is openly and vociferously arguing with Dathon in front of their own crew and indeed the Enterprise. This is a nice touch because it shows the Tamarians view life exactly like their mytho-historical memes. It's the xo's *duty* to battle Dathon over this. An xo doing this on a starfleet bridge under similar circumstances would be considered insubordinate, perhaps grossly so.

[@pigs18]

"Shaka when the walls fell," isn't all the different from, "This is like the time that Dave from Accounting had to break into his own office."

[@Soulsphere001]

This is generally considered to be in the top ten episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, if not the top five. So, yeah, hopefully fans don't get too angry. :)

[@miller-joel]

Angry Star Trek fans? Don't be ridiculous.

[@Whiskey61]

I'm not angry, I'm disappointed.

[@magafett596]

This is my favorite episode. It’s just Star Trek at its core.

[@updatedude]

Incidentally, in the early days of the internet, I saw a lot of criticism on the language of the aliens, and I assume you're going to encounter such criticisms in the comments/patron takes as well. But even as a kid, I thought the language made enough sense, because I'm Chinese and Chinese has a lot of this kinda referential language that everyone's assumed to know, especially with contextual cues during a conversation. For example, a Dog-Meat Monk (literal translation) is similar to the English phrase, Whisky Priest. So someone who does something they aren't supposed to, especially given their current position. It comes from a story about this guy who committed murder (for a righteous reason... more or less) and because he did it for a righteous reason, his friends helped him go on the lam while the heat died down. They had him join a monastery. But the guy loved meat and one day, he saw a dog nearby, so he killed and ate it. Or you could consider it a language of in-jokes. The thing is, despite Picard speaking gibberish toward the end, you knew what he was saying, right? And now, Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel is added to the vocabulary. I mean, it's not a fully developed language with years of evolution through usage by the masses. And it's not necessarily a highly specific technical language either. But for a one-off episode language, it works well enough.

[@kereminde]

I always assumed this language barrier was a function of the universal translator database just... having no reference to translate the phrases.

[@kingdave31]

The location they filmed at is Bronson Canyon, seen in many TV shows and movies over the years. The entrance to the Adam West Batcave was here, and it's also the place where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy first beamed down to the Roman planet in "Bread and Circuses". This isn't the last time you see this location in Star Trek.

[@sunkorg]

This episode does a terrific job of addressing the suspension of disbelief we employ for virtually any sci-fi series: that somehow alien species can just speak perfect English. Yes, it's been explained in some episodes that an elaborate "universal translator" is at play. Darmok challenges the ridiculous notion that two very different cultures can instantly align, pain-free.

[@Drakoni23]

Yeah, the translator can translate words like Google translate, or I guess now ChatGPT can. Where you get what they are saying, but because they are saying "Like that episode of Spongebob where they sit in a box", that's what the others understand.

[@UnclePengy]

This episode predicted Internet meme culture about a decade before that was even a thing. This race has reduced its entire history and mythology to memes, to the point where they can now only communicate with each other using those memes. This was prime Trek.

[@Vulcanerd]

To me, Riker's conduct as acting captain wasn't him being dumb or acting stupidly. He may have been adhering too closely to procedure and by the book and not enough outside of the box, but to me, it's a reminder that we can follow what we think is the best course of action, given the best available information and still come to the wrong conclusion, decision or lose. It is possible to commit no mistakes (or make the best decision available with the info available) and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life. We have the benefit of being able to see what's happening on the planet, but that's info Riker isn't privy to and whether it's on the battlefield or in a business meeting, we rarely have 100% of the info or data (referred to as 'perfect information' in economics). What he sees is a technologically equal or superior force who's forcibly kidnapped their captain to what ends, they can't determine. Riker's primary responsibility, with Picard gone, is to the ship and his missing crew member.

[@christopherleodaniels7203]

Josh’s frustration with the episode mirrors that felt by Picard, the Enterprise crew, and the Talarians. This episode, in a very palpable way, makes us feel the frustration and hopefully the message that, even with the best of intentions from all sides, the real barrier to peace or friendship is often the impulse to give up and allow misunderstanding, assumption, and frustration win the day. As shown, one’s own impatience can be the deadliest enemy of all and the most dangerous part of their jobs. I’m suspecting that for Josh, the frustration worked too well.

[@markschreck8794]

A lot of people are commenting about how this episode is a good example about communication problems between cultures but I think the reason this episode hits with so many people is because bad communication is the source of so many everyday problems: at work, between friends, between spouses, parents and their children, gen X and gen Z, even just driving in traffic. My autistic son is non-verbal so struggling with simple communication is a very real thing in my life. When we went to Star Trek Las Vegas this past year with my sister's family, I had t-shirts made with favorite quotes from Trek and my son had Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. (I can't tell you my shirt's quote until you get to Deep Space 9 lol)

[@artboymoy]

Does it have the acronym, I.A.F?

[@markschreck8794]

Nope lol

[@seanrichardson7295]

I'm guessing it was a Quark line -- maybe something about a certain fizzy human drink?

[@markschreck8794]

Nope but I have already penciled that in for next time lol

[@allthingsnerd.4484]

The clever idea in the writers room for this one was “let’s stop taking the universal translator for granted”. It’s actually a brilliant first contact episode. I have to admit; This episode grew on me. I didn’t hate it the first time I saw it, but it wasn’t an instant favorite either. Over time and rewatches it has become a favorite however. That said; there is an episode later this season that is considered a classic among fans that I absolutely hate… not because it is a bad episode, but because the implications are horrifying. I’m genuinely curious as to how you guys will react to it.

[@l44va]

"Josh, clueless on Darmok."

[@jasont2986]

Darmok is also one of my favorite TNG episodes. It explores the theme of meeting a new species who have a much different mode of communication, let alone word syntax. I still remember when I first watched this episode and the light came on at the end that the Tamarian language references commonly understood events (myths specifically) to convey meaning and intent. This is the kind of science fiction best reflected the 'golden' age of sience fiction (at least in my opinion) of the 1960's and 1970's.

[@Vincornelis]

So much of modern communication involves memes and pop culture references. The way we communicate these days isn't that different from the Tamarians.

[@caveatlector2671]

Inference and metaphor are not modern linguistic phenomena. Consider such idioms like "under the thumb", which originates, in English, from falconry in the Middle Ages or earlier, or "riding shotgun", born of the Old West in America from stagecoach protection; translating the words won't make the meaning understood to cultures not familiar with their contexts. All languages are replete with such references and is why interpretation is an art, not a science. This TNG episode beautifully illustrates how truly challenging communication between highly isolated and disparate cultures/languages can be until cracking a figurative Rosetta Stone unlocking meanings that are taken for granted. I'm bilingual and often run into roadblocks in translating such things from on language to another, often requiring dropping linear translation in favor of alternate wording to convey the intended meaning, but the flavor, the humor, the wit, the depth is often lost in the process.

[@KeoTower]

Funny, my wife walked in as I was starting to watch this video and I told her that I was excited cuz you guys were watching my favorite episode. I'm very familiar with the Sumerian mythology around Gilgamesh and so the reference made in this episode solidified the episode for me.

[@jonathont7866]

This is easily one of the top 5 TNG episodes.

[@MrDeathpilot]

IMDb rates only 13 episodes of TNG higher than this one. It rated slightly higher than Redemption 1&2.

[@ammaleslie509]

@@MrDeathpilot the IMDb rating is brought down by folks who miss the point entirely. This episode is actively hated by folks who have no appreciation of the wonders of language (that's a lot of people). Strangely it is also hated by people who constantly use the shorthand of merne language in their daily lives and just fail to recognize how brilliantly it is being used here. The difficulty of EVER communicating with an alien race and the power of language to separate or connect cultures is a theme most writers never even try to tackle. This episode succeeds at expressing BOTH those ideas. Genius. A classic. Top of the S tier.

[@ajgrant1975]

A D grade on this episode really just feels like trolling.

[@ptah956]

I think this is one of those episodes that, if you love it, it's because there's some personal connection. For me, it's because I have a hard time vocalizing my thoughts. Oftentimes, it's just easier to use analogies.

[@MartyMcTube]

Having every alien speak perfect English was always a silly convenience, even with the universal translator idea. This story shows the more logical struggle with communicating with a creature from another planet. Paul's performance was great.

[@JMO_1976]

I didn't scan all the comments to see if anyone else posted this, but during the scene when Riker tells Geordi he wants the captain beamed up immediately and Geordi looks at a female engineer who gives him a "Not gonna happen" look, is played by Ashley Judd.

[@Skynock]

Picard, his hands on face.

[@Adam_Le-Roi_Davis.]

😂

[@ammaleslie509]

@@Skynock Josh's penance for this is going to be the constant use of tamarian meme language to describe his responses to the rest of TNG

[@Skynock]

Bearded Geordi, his finger pointed.

[@paulgales8211]

For real. This is a classic. He cray cray

[@meganega123]

Josh has got to be trolling at this point. How can anyone have such bad taste?

[@rocco3381]

Different brains work in different ways 🤷🏿‍♂️

[@MoogieSRO]

@@rocco3381 Or, in some cases, not at all.

[@rocco3381]

@@MoogieSRO it depends on what he likes about the show. He seems more interested in tone and direction than sci-fi themes, which is fine. There’s a lot for everyone to enjoy. I also can’t imagine only seeing these episodes now. What was groundbreaking then must seem like old hat and lackluster in 2025.

[@TopGunZero]

I think one of the big differences between Josh and your average Star Trek fan, especially TNG, is that the average Star Trek fan is watching Star Trek purely to enjoy it. If an episode doesn't hook you right away, the average Star Trek fan generally doesn't make up their mind about the episode until its over. If Josh isn't hooked fairly early on, he's likely going to check himself out. That's not necessarily a dig at Josh, it's just a difference in consuming the media. The episode has a slow build, it's meant to be frustrating and I think the payoff is there for most people and so I think that's why it worked for most people and it didn't work for Josh. As for Riker being dumb... Picard likely dies on that planet without Riker's actions. True the Tamarians weren't actively pursuing a war, but they kidnapped the Captain and put his life in jeopardy. Riker absolutely has the responsibility to recover Picard and has few options left to him. It's always interesting to me when someone says they think a character acted unintelligently, but then don't say what he should have done differently. It wasn't Riker/Worf who almost started a war here, it was the Tamarians. On that note, it's also why they were able to finally understand them. There was criticism in the patron takes that Picard learned faster than the Federation, but the reality here is made clear that the Federation hasn't had much luck or time spent with the Tamarians and probably haven't put much effort towards trying since efforts like these could easily start a war. Picard is put in a unique position that mandates co-operation which isn't a situation the Federation was in prior. The few interactions they've had are what cause the Tamarian captain to even try this. Lastly, I believe the universal translator IS working hence why everything is in English, but they're still speaking in metaphor, which the universal translator can't translate because it's a literal translation of what is being said rather than a contextual translation. It's actually a great episode to focus on the limitations of the universal translator and the difficulty with translating things in general, even two statements in english that should mean the opposite can mean the same thing. There was a scene with Diana and Picard talking about how diffiuclt it is to manage language when there isn't a common word, this is just another example of how language is truly difficult.

[@MattApple_]

The beauty of this episode is that you come to understand the alien's language the same way Picard does; with repetition and context. The episode is about communication and you literally receive a primer in an alien language. Rating this one a D?! Shaka when the walls fell.

[@Kap00rwith2os]

I ❤ this episode! It took "The Arena" and turned it on its head in a thoughtful way. I also like that we're finding out what is happening as the characters find out. DEFINITELY has rewatch value when you know what is going on 👌 . It also shows the difference between Picard's and Riker's styles: Picard is more thoughtful, cerebral and ever the diplomat, whereas Riker is more direct and aggressive in his approach. Such a good episode 🥰

[@updatedude]

To be fair, when I was a kid, I didn't care for this episode at all. I couldn't even remember it when I rewatched the series when I got older. But the more times I watched it, the more I loved it. As for why it was repetitive, I would assume that was the point. To drill it into the audience's heads. I mean, if you rewatch the episode another time or two, you'd probably be a pretty fluent speaker of their language.

[@c1ph3rpunk]

The best part of being young and dumb is not knowing you're young and dumb. Also didn't notice who the Tamarian actor is... Khan!!!

[@stevenhewitt4475]

I love the dude on the left saying "oh" and putting on a deep voice every time he recalls something from an episode xD

[@daniellanctot6548]

*I’ll take the “A” for Darmok, no problem, even though for me: It’s an “S”. This episode links back to a small part of the episode “The Ensign of Command”, when Picard was dealing with the Sheliak he sat down with Troi and she remarked how the fact that two alien species can communicate with each other is remarkable and even tried to get Picard to understand a random word and failed miserably. I consider this episode a deeper dive into the same subject* *This episode is also famous amongst linguists, some of which have praised the writing for showing how different cultures approach language differently and how some ways of expressing themselves are difficult to understand (even after translating most of the words) and how misinterpretations can lead to conflicts; of which there are many examples in human history.* *So I get that it is not everyone’s **_cup of Earl Grey tea:_** But it sure is mine!* *Re: The Jacket - As a Patreon member mentioned, the Jacket will return, but it will never be explained in so many words. My own view on it is that it reappears often in times when Picard seems to be (unofficially) off duty: You will sometimes see him with the grey sweater that’s underneath it but not the jacket when he is in his quarters. So I think the sweater and jacket is a way of signalling to the crew (especially the non-officers of the crew who are not intimately aware of the Captain’s schedule) that he is either pass the end of his official shift or on an “off day” while still on the ship. That way, the crew know to not stop him to discuss ship’s matter that does not require his immediate attention; and reversely, if they see him in full, red uniform they know not to stop him for inane chitchat, but rather to stick to ships duty.* *So in this instance, I think Picard was pass his end of shift when they met up with the Children of Tama, so while he was still ready to meet with them officially, he still wore the more casual jacket so that non-officers would not bother him with other ships’ duties.* *That’s how I interpret it. Honestly, I never spent the time to analyze each appearance of the jacket to see if it holds up completely (Especially since, like I said, it is never explained and pretty much left as a fashion choice) and I am sure it would be easy to argue either way in many situations when it does return.*

[@Daneoid81]

This was released on International Translation Day, its the perfect encapsulation of a Star Trek episode and the hope that an idea like the federation can provide.

[@kingleech16]

I think the "metaphor language" is great because it shows a species who fundamentally think in a different way than humans. Instead of just being "Human+" with extra logic, anger, greed, or abilities like telepathy or insta-healing, they literally think in a different way. Since we don't know their physiology or other characteristics, there are plenty of sci-fi ways this could work. People who shoot it down as being dumb because you can't have advanced societies based purely on metaphor 1) Missed the fact that they also communicated via mathematics, so there is a secondary method of conveying certain forms of information and 2) Are thinking that no HUMANS could advance using only metaphors (which is a fair point but misses the obvious fact that they are a different species). For all we know the species has a collective memory or some form of collective trauma, or perhaps there is limited telepathy so that a single metaphor can be given numerous meanings with the right "nudge". Since they cleverly didn't lay out all the bells and whistles of a Child of Tama, the viewer can make their own guesses as to how a species evolved like this.

[@seanrichardson7295]

All of these deeper questions about the Tamarian society *could* be answered... but not until we learn how to take the first step of actually communicating with them. I'm really curious how people who can't accept the Tamarians deal with the question of how the Trill symbiotes and hosts evolved, or how the Pakleds ever achieved space travel in the first place, or why Vulcan arranged marriages don't happen during their first pon farr. And the more we learn about the Borg, the less sense their society makes (which is almost impressive given how little sense it makes in the first place). And there are even better examples from episodes that TA hasn't gotten to yet -- at least one in this season alone! I do understand if people just don't like the episode, but I don't understand singling out the Tamarians as if it is unusual for a Star Trek alien to be built out of a single idea that in reality would appear to be insufficient as the basis for an entire society to develop.

[@XAltear]

This is one of my favorite episodes of all star trek, the way the tamarians communicate is very unique and interesting, and seeing the 2 species learn how to comminicate and forge a bond

[@bgb_ca]

Love quoting this episode to my fellow trekkie friends. Temba, his arms wide.

[@mjbull5156]

The Tamarians are a culture that speaks exclusively in memes. It is a creative way to explain why the universal translator does not work.

[@justsomebody-1665]

It makes total sense: the universal translator works fine and translates all their words, but if you dont understand the backstory behind the references then you wont understand the meaning. Of course, if you think about it too hard beyond that then yeah it starts to break down but thats ok

[@mjbull5156]

@justsomebody-1665 By not work, I meant that it does not convey the true meaning. That is common problem in real life translations when dealing with idioms. How one would translate "His daughter is the apple of his eye" likely makes no literal sense in a very foreign language.

[@wizardling4709]

I think people who don't understand how such a metaphor based language could work, ought to consider how heavy with metaphor English (and most other real life languages, too) is, and how incomprehensible that is initially to people who are learning a new language. Now dial up the use of metaphor 1000 percent, and there you go. As to how would the metaphors be known by others who speak the same language? Well - the same way we learn words in our own language. From those we're around as we grow up and develop our language skills. And how would new metaphors enter the lingo? The same way new words enter our language. No, they're not universally known and understood at first, but over time the meaning spreads.

[@qam2024]

You are going to be surprised going forward how much "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra", "His arms wide Open", "Shaka, when the walls fell" become part of your vocabulary.

[@ammaleslie509]

@@qam2024 "Sokath! his eyes uncovered!" is the one I use the most frequently in real life. Always brings the trek fans out of the woodwork, but even people who don't know TNG can figure it out pretty easily. Josh can be forgiven for not being a poet or a writer or someone who likes to play with words. But he does use a lot of analogy and metaphor in his reactions, so there is another level where he does get the point . I think someday he will change his mind about this episode.

[@karlgrimm3027]

It’s nice to see them actually doing their jobs I.E. making friends with new species.

[@damienkakoschke3099]

As I'm noticing with your rewatches, this is one of those episodes where it becomes more relevant now than at the time of being broadcast. At the time I didn't like much, now I love it now that I understand it more. We have since the late 90's been communicating in similes & metaphors . For us, it'd be something like "Yoda, his syntax bad", "Kirk, his shirt ripped", or "Frodo & Sam, in Mordor", or "Josh & Alex, at Target Audience".

[@kunserndsittizen2655]

Or Josh and Alex...fruits.

[@ProtusMose]

Josh, when his expectations were not met.

[@Tuning_Spork]

I LOVED this episode when it first aired because, at the time, I was learning a second language. Up 'til then, I didn't realize the degree to which the various human languages are chock full o' idioms, metaphors and cultural references, and that translating a simple turn of phrase literally, word-for-word, devoid of cultural context, doesn't always communicate the meaning of those words. It's what makes books, songs, movies, TV shows and, especially, poetry such a creative ordeal to translate into another language (Sorry for being so wordy.) So, to all non-native English-speakers enjoying Star Trek as written, bottoms up! 🍺😃

[@Exarathas]

Alex and Josh at the studio. Alex, his mind open. Josh, his opinion fake to boost engagement. The algorithm, manipulated. The viewers with torches lit. Josh, happy at the studio.

[@MoogieSRO]

While I definitely do believe they pull occasional bs to drive people to their Patreon, I don't think they're quite dastardly enough to fake a reaction to that extent. This is just an example of Josh not "getting it". Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

[@caseyanne967]

One of the best TNG episodes! Totally an S. Josh giving it a D? Didn't expect that at all! To address one of your concerns, "why did they have to say the same two or three metaphors the entire time?" Because it wouldn't have worked if they used a ton of phrases. It was hard enough for Picard to figure out what was being said, so keeping it simple was more effective. Also, their language holds a lot of meaning in very few words, so when Dathon told the story of Darmok and Jelad, he only needed a few short sentences. I've seen this episode so many times and always delight in the "repetitive" phrases. They have a poetic ring to them and are very memorable.

[@richdurbin6146]

Fathom was trying to talk to Picard on a kindergarten level, try to keep it basic enough to figure out. Among their own kind it probably would get pretty complex.

[@caseyanne967]

@@richdurbin6146 Yes, he did keep it simple so Picard could figure it out, but at the same time, their language uses metaphor so they need less words in general to get their meaning across.

[@seanrichardson7295]

@@richdurbin6146 Yeah, when the Tamarians are on the ship, they rattle through a lot of phrases we never hear again because they're speaking to each other. But if you meet somebody who is so dumb that they can't understand "Darmok and Galaad at Tanagra", you're not gonna start hitting them with quantum mechanics.

[@D2SProductions]

This isn't my favorite episode, but it is one of my favorite episodes. I'm in Star Trek RP group, and I informed our group that when my character retires I want her to become a Federation Ambassador to the Tamarians. I would talk about what I loved about this episode but some many have already covered that, and I really wouldn't say much any different than what they've said. I'm sorry that this episode was, "Shaka when the walls fell," for Josh. According to Star Trek lore, the events of this episode lead to the Tamarians using, "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel," to refer to First Contact situations.

[@robertcringle4865]

The thinking fans episode. Take notes and learn.

[@peterkoester7358]

0:08 Learned this at a Star Trek convention contemporary to season 5. Patrick Stewart had been pushing for a new variety of uniform designs for Picard to wear for the past couple of seasons - feeling the Captain should stand out among the crew - and finally the wardrobe department obliged with this nice-looking (and expensive) suede leather uniform jacket and grey undershirt combo. They were devastated when in the first episode Picard wears it he rolls around in the mud and completely ruined the suede. They had to create an entirely new jacket again (doubling the initial cost) for its next appearance later in the season.

[@larryshumaker5571]

Episode is about diplomacy and miscommunication. Picard showed a different skill that just firing phasers.