Teaching shooting is not an easy gig

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[@allenhurt02]

Ive been inpired by you to persue teaching. Down in south texas (rio grande valley) there is no one offering anything of value. Ive been focusing on building my own shooting and teaching ability before i even think about charging money. Im straight up teaching friends, family, and coworkers the things ive learned from you guys. Ive found that i genuinly enjoy teaching and seeing people improve. I have 0 problem making time to take someone out for a practice session when they ask. Thanks for all the free info and hopefully i can not suck so much 😂

[@BenStoeger187]

It was good to have you in class man

[@jonsevier6087]

The best shooting instructors I have had are instructors first and shooters second, if that makes sense. Effectively engaging students is an art, and standing in front of a class replaying your life experiences is not how you teach- students see right through that. Sure we all like a good story, but the reality is that students learn through repetition and experience- a good teacher guides them through this process, constantly challenging them to try something new and step out of their comfort zone. Just because you are good at something, doesn't mean you can effectively teach that subject. Just look at how many professional athletes absolutely suck at coaching.

[@johnphillips222]

Well said. Shooting well is an important part of it. Helping someone shoot well by coaching is another skill. Literally, none of the instructor classes really show candidates how to teach properly. As one example, where do any instructors teach how to handle monovision? Instructor skills like that are left out.

[@paulfrancois7653]

I agree with this - except I don't even think your average vet / law enforcement is particularly good at shooting. I've worked with countless vets who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn

[@lordhellfire153]

Very nice way of saying "some of these dudes are total hacks and can't hide it after a while so they stop"

[@chrisgasperini]

They won’t comment but this video will hurt a lot of feelings I bet lol

[@paddypibblet846]

​@@chrisgasperiniWishful thinking. A lot of these guys don't know who Ben Stoeger is. And the majority of gun owners in the US and people wanting to better themselves as shooters don't even know the words "Practical Shooting", what they do know is Navy SEAL/Green Beret spec ops Ninja John Wick Sniper, and these dudes who leave the service are marketing themselves real nicely towards the dudebros. The military instructors won't get practical shooters coming in the classes, since practical shooters know better than to waste time and money going there in the first place. Everyone stays in their "lane" so to speak.

[@rodiculous9464]

​@@paddypibblet846it doesn't help that all social media and culture itself is built around promoting guys like that whereas a low key guy like Ben gets no love from the algo bc it's some random white dude talking to a camera about shooting guns in some "obscure" competition no one heard of

[@paddypibblet846]

@@rodiculous9464 **edited** I misunderstood your comment. But yes I am 100% in agreement with you. One thing the average American falls for real easily is all that Samurai Mr.Miyagi nonsense, so that Ronin Tactics karatified metaphysical kung fu approach to shooting appeals to the normies.

[@paddypibblet846]

Around my area there was a locally well known instructor who everyone told me to take a class from. He didnt have anything on his resume that I necessarily respected. He's an old guy, NRA pistol instructor, and he said he only dabbled in IDPA years ago. No title or rankings. Naturally I was hesitant. Finally decided to take up the class. Not only was the class way cheaper than any other instructor's class I've taken, but it was one of the best classes rivaling those of some of the better well known shooters out there. In MMA and Boxing, some of the best coaches out there were never even professional fighters themselves. I don't know exactly how this is, but I assume that people who really like shooting/fighting and have an analytical mind (but perhaps not the physicality) are better at breaking things down and teaching, than doing.

[@seanoneil277]

Some folks excel and don't know mechanically why, or they can't explain why. You have to want to explain why, from your own learnings -- and some just can't do that.

[@randomnobodovsky3692]

Almost nobody analyzes own success. It's the struggle where one starts to think and question.

[@seanoneil277]

​@@randomnobodovsky3692 Exactly! I think the mode of being analytical is rare to begin, and so it's not a familiar thing for many, even before trying to learn fundamental techniques.

[@sectorseven07]

The fact of the matter is, most people don't understand that being a shooting instructor kind of fucking sucks most of the time. You think it's going to be an easy way into free range days and ammo sponsors, and then you go in and realize you'd rather be one of the students getting the actual trigger time in rather than the instructor trying to diagnose why Diana is following every piece of instruction you're giving to a T but can't hit a C zone at 7 yards.

[@pastapaul150]

So dam true

[@Bane_Diesel]

I don't have a lot of money to spend on shooting and I have been doing USPSA on a budget. My family bought me a 1on1 lesson with an instructor. It was so nice I wish I could do it more. I try to absorb as much info as possible from free places like this but you have to sift through bad info and practices. I really like my instructor who is a master I believe and when we do events locally he will try to be in my USPSA squad which is cool.

[@Osprey1994]

Preach man. I aspire to get into instructing, and I keep holding out because I feel that I don't offer the quality of classes that someone like Ben does. I'm at the point where one of my buddies who is on the SWAT team was willing to let me coach him, and I could see him improve over the couple hours we were hanging out. But I'm still hoping to add to my credentials before I even consider teaching. PS. My professors, as well as family and friends who I've coached have all suggested I get into teaching. Of course, I would prefer to teach people about firearms rather than say, history or geography.

[@anthonyrogers6793]

Shawn Ryan was trying to charge over 2000 for a shooting class back in the day. I don’t think he really knows how to shoot

[@liamgeeson5236]

Majority of my military friends can't shoot worth a damn. It's odd to put it lightly

[@dlind24]

Troll

[@rodiculous9464]

​@@liamgeeson5236it's not odd at all when you consider modern warfare is 99% digging trenches, hiding from artillery/drones and maintaining supply lines not the pew Pew stuff you see in movies and videogames

[@paddypibblet846]

​@@liamgeeson5236That's because you don't need to be a good shooter in order to kill in a warzone, luck is a huge factor. I was in the Marines, and another fellow 0311 who did get deployed told me how he got a kill over in Iraq. To paraphrase, he saw a guy crouched holding an AK by a lamp post around 100ish yards and just put the Chevron on the guy and pulled the trigger. At those distances with an M16A4 not even a kid would miss By that action alone he has combat experience and all people need to know is that he was a Marine with a confirmed kill and by that standard alone it's natural that people will think he's a good shooter. They'll be mistaken because he never even scored higher than a Pizzabox (the lowest ranking medal possible for rifle quals). Not to mention most military service members do not have a combat MOS where they're working with guns. Most of them are basically glorified office/warehouse workers. The camo fatigues give incorrect impressions to the general public or heroism.

[@Blue.memetics]

I flirted with it very briefly. I figured out a couple of things quick: 1) Where I was at skill wise, I was not up to it. (I would have been another cringe bro vet, I'd be one of the guys you and Matt dunk on and I would deserve it) and 2) I was unprepared to teach without the sort of structured institution of a military school house/cadre situation.

[@small-armstrainer8666]

Ben... I was fortunate enough to start teaching while I was in the military. I started as a basic line-coach and then worked my up to running classes, developing courses and other programs. I picked up my Master class ranking in High-power Rifle and Long-range Rifle. I wasn't a great pistol shooter but as I transitioned to the private sector, I saw that I needed to get better. I started in security and LE work and saw that I could apply my focus and passion to teaching. Over the years, I've seen what you talked about... Folks coming in and leaving after getting burned out. I don't travel nearly as much as you and don't have nearly the Social Media presence that you and other Instructors have, but I've been able to manage a pretty good life / work balance doing what I love. I still haven't picked up my Master in USPSA, but I only got back into it last season after a break of over a decade. I think that doing this for any real amount of time really requires a "love of the game".

[@CitadelDefense1]

I think the “weakest link” is often people’s ability to teach. Teaching is a skill. It is its own skill set. Just because you can shoot doesn’t mean you have the ability to help someone else develop that skill as well. The best instructors don’t have to be the best shooters, they have to be the best teachers to help make you better and help make you better than themselves. There is a humility involved.

[@randomnobodovsky3692]

And it takes a lot of skill to both know the subject but also remember how it is to not know the subject.

[@CitadelDefense1]

@@randomnobodovsky3692 amen

[@RB-nn6bb]

Just examining the training aspect, Ben is an exception. Very few if any of the best of the best pros at their sport make good coaches/trainers. For example, it's not Larry Bird or Magic Johnson who had an amazing coaching career, it's Pat Riley and Phil Jackson, solid journeyman pros who killed it as coaches. David Leadbetter had a short career on the European tour, but is one of the greatest golf coaches of all-time.

[@bradwade7090]

Way past my prime but I took a class from you and thought you were and excellent teacher and Joel too

[@seanoneil277]

Same thing plays out in custom bicycle frame making. Very few last more than 1-2 yrs, no matter how much hype & biz they get in those 1-2 yrs they usually fade out.

[@cc2897]

Agree, I've been doing the instructor thing for about a year and a bit now and it is a lot of work to find students, find a range that will accommodate practical shooting and not be fudds about it. It's like a lot of industries. You can find a potentially cushy job being a lead instructor at some boutique range and teach beginners who don't practice the same stuff over and over again, but if you want to teach at a higher level and push students for practical shooting performance, the market thins dramatically and finding committed students is very difficult.

[@cc2897]

Even though it is a lot of work, seeing the few students who start getting it and put in the work is very rewarding because you've equipped them with skills that will serve them well in competition but also in life should they ever need them.

[@shuumai]

My wife would love it if I were gone most of the year.

[@johnphillips222]

Teaching shooting is NOT easy, just like Ben mentioned. In addition to the traveling business model there is the local business model in some parts of the country. The amount of local students is much-much more, but the dedication or amount of time that they can devote to shooting is less than the students that will travel or are attracted to traveling instructors. That doesn't make one business model better or worse than another, just serving different markets. The sad thing is that being a good instructor does not pay as well as a professional day job. Competency comes as a package deal, and people that are good in one thing can also be competent in other things ...that make so much more money. That said, I feel that it is a civic duty to teach well and be a positive role model for firearms and the related topics. Is that discounted business model a businss model, a hobby, or a mix? Probably a mix. NOT relying on any income from the gun industry to affect my lifestyle gives a certain freedom. Depending on the year and my schedule I can teach a few thousand or a few hundred each year. With the local business model I don't have the added expenses or overhead. I am not saying that one business model is better than another, but there are different markets that have different needs. It takes all of us, doing a good job and acting as a positive asset. Sometimes the derpy grief gets taxing, but that rarely happens in person.

[@mulder4528]

Amen best I have heard it described. It is hard to keep from burning out as well. I worked teaching but not for myself for three different organizations some at the same time. I loved it but keeping in mind it’s painfully repetitive for the instructor, but usually shiny and new for the student. That game face for the student must be maintained, it must always be about them not your aches and pains.

[@benjaminsalmons7253]

I had set my goal to instruct around 2 years ago. Lots of practice and patience. I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see my students succeed. I'm not teaching the top 10 percent and may never reach that point. For me, It's about giving the average Joe blow the chance to learn and not draining their bank account. If you just do it for the money, you will not make it.

[@jlew6890]

For more important to be a good teacher than anything. Doesn’t matter the subject. If you can’t relate, relay, and adapt then you’re going to be terrible

[@sdsorrentino]

I’m sure the VetBros will hate this video, but my first shooting instructor said basically the same thing. Ex Delta, taught shooting in their Operator Course, casually told us that “every person I’ve seen shot in the pelvis fell down immediately.” Said most instructors can’t teach. He wouldn’t hire an instructor for his company who couldn’t shoot or wasn’t an excellent teacher. They had to do both very well. Also made his Unit guys go shoot competition against civilians. He saw Operators who weren’t motivated by losing informal competitions to other Operators. But when Fat Joe, 72 years old with coke bottle glasses, whipped their ass in USPSA, they suddenly found the motivation to get better. The reality is that most people have no idea how good is good in shooting. They’ve never been exposed to competent so they’ve never even imagined how good it’s possible to get. When they show up to a match and get smacked down by a 14 year old girl they either quit and tell everyone it’s “not realistic,” or they put in the work to get better.

[@corybirkemeyer5706]

Ben - really appreciate your videos. Question on vision focus and aiming reference points on targets. If you are working transitions between targets using 1” square aiming references in the A zone, I am assuming that at short distances (less than 7 yards or whatever) your eyes snap to the aiming reference as you transition between targets, and you press the trigger as soon as you become aware that the dot is in the A zone. You don’t wait for the dot to get to the aiming reference. At longer distances or partial targets, you press the trigger when the dot is closer to (or has settled on) the aiming reference, depending on target difficulty. Is that the right way to think about it?

[@rolotomase1440]

Being able to shoot good is kinda far down on the list actually. Lots of these clowns think they shoot good but they wouldn't be B class in USPSA or shoot Master on the IDPA test. They are heavy on the marketing: tatoos beards and steroids and spend a lot of time talking.

[@jasonpitts8395]

Tier 1 Units paid for professional shooters to teach them way back when, and may still do that. So who should you take a class from? Guys like Ben. I have yet to take a class from Ben, but will this year (hopefully). I have attended one class, didn't pay for it due to it being comped, and I witnessed one of the worst instructors I have ever seen. Shot everything from the 3 yard line, actually missed the A zone from there, range theatrics, etc. Dude makes a lot of $ being a horrible instructor. I prefer to pay people that can not only shoot at a level they are teaching you to do, but they can get you to do it as well. The old saying "those that cannot do teach" is true in some instances, my advice is find the instructor that doesn't fit into that category. Thx Ben for the videos and free insight and tips.

[@AAlphaMike]

Do you have to be a GM to teach uspsa? What are some prerequisites to teach?

[@stovepipe8966]

Why do so many instructors have folks shoot at close up random assemblies of little circles printed on 8x11 paper ? I told some reasonably competent guy at my range to stop burning ammo shooting at little circles at 3-5 yards and do proper practical drills on real targets at real distances.

[@miniapplesun]

Do you know how minute of angle works?

[@stovepipe8966]

Practical pistol shooting is about acceptable accuracy at high speeds within 30 yards - so in this application the relevancy of MOA = how much does a chicken weigh @@miniapplesun

[@miniapplesun]

@@stovepipe8966 A small target up close is the same thing as a large target further away. Every shooting solution is a minute of angle problem. So, a chicken, in this case, would weigh anout 6moa.

[@randomnobodovsky3692]

@@miniapplesun "A small target up close is the same thing as a large target further away" - Well, except for eyes that refuse to work this way when focusing.

[@tomsanders6267]

Frankly if an instructor cant also shoot then I'm not interested. Also an instructor has to be able to stay calm because the class goes no faster then the slowest shooter and if the instructor has a melt down over one guy going backward then it affects the entire class. I'll walk off the range personally before I'll put up with that. From what Ive seen being an instructor is both physically and mentally demanding. The days are long, the days are "a lot", and being responsible for a lot of people with guns, some of them bone heads, must be tax'ing. Hell just being on the line with them is.

[@rodiculous9464]

Lucas "i DQ for safety violations and then whinge on social media about how firearms safety is for noobs" Botkin 😂

[@Matthew-zb3iw]

ben talks about this in a prev video, 180 rule is a range rule not necessarily a safety violation :)

[@rodiculous9464]

​@@Matthew-zb3iwgiven that his only experience is at a range he should have no excuse for not violating range rules :) Iirc he doesn't score that well even when he doesn't DQ

[@jlew6890]

I’m sorry your uncle wrestled with you too rough, making it hard for you to not be a fat pushy

[@twrol]

Everything I heard after botkin was something something controversial troll statement to drive people to my social media and watch my sped up videos and cope that I’ve never been pressure tested on a two-way range in the form of a question.

[@donables1200]

If 'pressure tested in combat' was a prerequisite to teach, then very few .mil, almost no LE, and maybe 3 civs would be teaching, so that argument is stupid as fuck. Additionally, too many LE and Gov guys want the 'easy' money of teaching and either can't teach, can't shoot, or both. I want to learn how to communicate and move with a team, clear a structure, immediate action/contact response, or set up a hasty ambush, I look for a guy with those creds. If I am looking to shoot as fast and accurately as possible (which hit factor is pretty much the standard of), I go to guys who are world champions playing gun games.

[@twrol]

⁠@@donables1200lol. That wasn’t the argument I was making. I went to two formal week-long shooting courses paid for by the DoD and they were both taught by civilians (one by ncis and the other by 3gun competitors). The person you are defending has neither real life experience or is winning championships in gun games. He’s just an instagram meme and troll, so I’m not really sure where you were going with this.

[@rodiculous9464]

I agree that botkin is a goof, but there are different forms of shooting. Ben would probably not be any good on a "2 way range" bc that's not what he trains for. And there are many other skillsets that apply to that kind of environment than just the action of pulling a trigger and landing a hit.

[@donables1200]

@@twrol I am not defending anyone. I don't have an opinion either way on Lucas, but if you are calling Ben an instagram troll with no experience winning, then you are Special Ed. He doesn't mind stirring the pot, but he is a damn good instructor and teaches solid concepts and drills. And save the training/experience stories and scenarios for the civilians. If your pic is accurate and you fly a helo, let's not get into a 'who has done more high speed training' pissing contest.

[@twrol]

@@donables1200lol again. I wasn’t talking about Ben. He clearly has verifiable skill. Also yes the picture is accurate and I have done enough that I don’t really concern myself with what others have done (let alone be an envious troll).

[@AlexanderSotelo]

I've never been a shooting instructor but I did a stint as a trainer in the corporate world. Teaching other people to do something that requires some level of critical thinking is mentally fucking exhausting. This was teaching people with college educations that have gone through some sort of vetting process. You're teaching self selected individuals. There is no gating process. I can't imaging the level of dumb you must deal with... dios mio!

[@grapeshot23]

*cough* Chuck Pressburg *cough*

[@miniapplesun]

Have you taken a class with Chuck?

[@grapeshot23]

@@miniapplesunyes

[@miniapplesun]

Was it a bad class? Is he not a good shooter? What did you not like about it?@@grapeshot23

[@timjames4317]

So Ben, what sets instructors like yourself and others apart? What makes you keep doing this. Why don’t teach? What does it do for you? Outside of income. Lol

[@BenStoeger187]

One man army, have gun will travel, outlaw, etc Its a whole lifestyle

[@tokyosan7906]

I think its funny you chose a question from your buddy who has tons of videos out there teaching wrong/badly. Not funny, hilarious, actually. But at least you both have a kindred hatred of bro vets lmao

[@VeloxTrainingGroup]

People confuse hatred with someone simply stating their opinion which so happens to be true. I highly doubt either hate vets.

[@arighteousname5882]

This seems like sort of a loaded question with some malice behind it. Is the implantation that most veteran shooting instructors "suck" or are we just talking about the bad ones that do infact suck? I know it's en vouge right now to shit on veteran shooting instructors for some reason (which is kinda weird to me) but I don't by into the premise that Veteran instructors suck just because you , Matt or Lucas says so.

[@twrol]

Correct observation. That question was a controversy phishing scheme and Ben either fell for it or was sympathetic and happy to assist.

[@arighteousname5882]

@twrol even if there is some merit to these assertions I'm just curious as to what said shooting instructors do suck

[@Dillydilly956]

Not all veteran instructors suck, but the instructors that base their teaching off of their military background definitely suck.

[@jamesdomenico2953]

Dude, stop repeating you points over and over again. This is occurring in just about every video.