Tears of the Kingdom Critique: Open Worlds Are Dead

[@theking8347]

The path to the Wind Temple was more memorable than the temple itself.

[@ilbroducciore]

Maybe the real temple was all the path we trod along the way

[@facepwnagewtf]

The path leading up to every temple was more memorable than the temples themselves. Every temple in TOTK rank in the lowest tier of Zelda temples as a whole.

[@AC-hj9tv]

​@@ilbroducciorenever thought of it like that

[@kewa_design]

the path was so fucking awful :( the boss was great though but temple and path nah took me forever and i hated every minute of it haha

[@valrond]

At least it was better than the water temple

[@AnthonySigouin]

Putting only 4 short simple Temples on this 3 layers massive map is pure trolling to me.

[@charliez077]

totally. I ended up almost 100%-ing ToTK just to have a fully formed opinion. an INCREDIBLY bloated and recycled (BoTW) game. there are like 15%-20% parts of good/great fun among a sea of doing the exact same stuff 40 times, the exact same stuff I already did in BoTW 100 times. Depths suck. story is more ambitious, yet worse than BoTW. 6/10 game.

[@nillynush4899]

Like they looked at BOTW's critics talking about its sheer lack of dungeons, so they threw a couple piecemeal dungeons at our feet, expecting us to scramble to lap them up and worship them for it, despite after 17 years Link still can't move and swing a sword at the same time - the controls went backwards.

[@Flip4910]

yeah it seems like there should be WAY MORE main missions

[@ACW-dn9wb]

​​@@nillynush4899Exactly bro. Combat in TOTK/BOTW is seriously lacking. No Twilight Princess Hidden Skills or even run slashing just disappointed me. Its sad to see an 11 year old Link from WW and even OOT be a more competent fighter than an adult TOTK Link who cant even stab or swipe vertically.

[@LeonSKennedy7777]

@@ACW-dn9wbyeah but there are hundreds of more creative ways to fight enemies compared to those old, linear games. It’s a near-limitless sandbox for creative minds. But I can understand people still preferring New Super Mario Bros compared to Mario Builder, as an analogy.

[@Mcl_Blue]

If people react with "if you don't like it, then just skip it, it's optional" to every single aspect of the game, that just means "skip the game".

[@wdf70]

Literally how a lot of games are designed nowadays. Starfield especially. lol

[@RTU130]

Yea

[@hyphil1354]

i mean yeah. if its a game with nothing that grabs me, im not gonna buy it. not every video game is one youre gonna enjoy. i absolutely loved TOTK and think its far and beyond the best zelda title. others think TP or WW are the best zelda titles because they offer different things that they prefer. if there's not enough in TOTK for you to consider it worth your time, it probably isnt worth YOUR time. but its worth it to other people. if you don't like the game, don't play the game. it's optional.

[@Mcl_Blue]

@@hyphil1354 You're absolutely right! The problem is that most people that say this kind of stuff don't mean it in a "it's okay to not like/want to play the game" way like you did, but rather as a way to deflect criticism. If you just refrain from playing at all, they don't tend to like that either.

[@hyphil1354]

@@Mcl_Blue yeah. Some people get way too involved in liking something that they see others not liking it as much as they do as an attack on them somehow. The reverse tends to happen with Star Wars where if you like something certain fans don’t like you’re labeled a “fake fan” and a “Disney shill” or whatever

[@tommyvercetti9434]

I've grown so tired of the current "linear = bad" discourse. It seems like every developer has taken a page out of Ubisoft's playbook for the last five years or so.

[@hubblebublumbubwub5215]

Among gamers the "linear = bad" discourse seems more like a thing from 10 years ago. Developers still stick to it but I don't think that's because they genuinely believe in it, but because it makes games accessible to a wider audience.

[@Chichirumiru]

It is much easier and cheaper to create an open world sandbox then to create a beautiful handcrafted map with an engaging story.

[@thaumly]

@@hubblebublumbubwub5215 I'm fairly certain the original meaning of the phrase was "linear world design = bad" or something to that effect, and it was almost definitely related to the massive praise dark souls 1 was getting for its world which was both nonlinear and 100% handcrafted

[@jecko980]

I keep going back to COD campaings consistenly, mainly cause they're pretty much linear and not that demanding

[@V2ULTRAKill]

​@@thaumlyno it was a general linear=bad And it was because of skyrim

[@arbbr9397]

“Open world” shouldn’t mean massive fucking map by default. We can have an open world game in a smaller map. It’s okay.

[@iamLI3]

danm dude you trying to fill tokt's open world with your comments XD ?...

[@SerpongeDash]

"A short hike" one of my fav openworld

[@atkvin]

Yep. Outer Wilds proves less can be more with a concisely designed world and story.

[@SteadyxSword]

Gaping World is more fit to describe most of'em.

[@deftoned2]

Yakuza games are good examples

[@doopydoops2064]

I think nowadays there's a lot of underutilized fun to be found in restriction and simplicity. The original LoZ may not have been as restrictive as it was by choice, but it definitely knew that. When I "solved" a shrine with a rocket-shield for the fifth time in one playthrough, I started wondering "why bother?". If self-imposed restriction is the only way to keep the game fun... maybe the game wasn't very fun to begin with.

[@daks_7122]

Exactly that, if you need to impose restrictions to make the game fun, that doesn't speak very highly of the game in question. Of course self imposed restrictions for difficulties sake (such as pokemon nuzlockes) are a separate category.

[@chaosprime1629]

tears i feel like i have to use self imposed restrictions where it has this binary problem of being too trivial with zonai devices or too frustrating when depending on sneak strikes and heavily limiting bow usage. zelda 1 may have been pretty open but it had boundaries. there is that sense of satisfaction when you discover an alternate route or not realize a location can be accessed earlier either through a secret or even an unintuitive manner. alttp and oot were the only other entries that delivered on this style. for example, using bombos to get through the ice temple instead of the fire rod and then using the magic mirror to skip the hookshot gated room. misery mire and the pegasus boots instead of the hookshot or the navigational puzzle to skull woods without using the hookshot (in fact, the only time the hookshot is mandatory after the water dungeon is near the end of ganon's tower). oot had din's fire to get an early longshot in the water temple or epona to cross gerudo valley for the poacher's saw. i am still playing tears and i am going on a no glider run. i have to think outside of the box where some of the shrines i encountered so far that intend them do feel like kaizo challenges.

[@Ephraim225]

So you wasted Rockets on SHRINES of all things. I see where this is going.

[@doopydoops2064]

@@Ephraim225 A rocket shield has multiple uses. Rockets are not THAT difficult to come by. You can just say you like the game in spite of the things I mentioned. Nobody is going to arrest you.

[@chaosprime1629]

@@Ephraim225 no i used a bomb shield boost for one shrine. also i do not use rockets because i go for no damage runs throughout the shrines. one shrine i attached pieces of wood to extend a platform and use re-call to give me a close distance to jump across. also you cannot use zonai devices in your inventory unless already fused to shields and weapons.

[@onwithmarie6769]

What is odd to me is that many of the complaints I had in BOTW were both not addressed and exemplified by TOTK. I'm glad someone put many of the complaints I had in more eloquent words than I could, very good video.

[@pitshoster401]

I'm actually amazed at the sheer arrogance the Zelda team had to ignore basically 95% of Breath's criticisms simply because they knew the game would sell regardless. They were right too, which just makes it even worse.

[@mookiestewart3776]

@@pitshoster401they didn’t ignore you because they knew it would sell. They ignored you because even though you feel like it’s 95% of the criticism it’s only coming from about 10% of you weirdos in the playerbase. You’re critiques don’t matter when you’re in the minority fam

[@pitshoster401]

@@mookiestewart3776 "criticizing a game makes you a wierdo" Nintendo fanboys really are a blight.

[@imatiu]

@@pitshoster401 For most people the issues that were in BotW were adressed, they weren't adressed how some people wanted to be adressed, but they were adressed. Weapon durability wasn't a problem in of itself for most, the lack of reasons to engage in fights due to how durability and getting weapons was the issue and that was adressed perfectly, in Tears every fight is a net gain because every single enemy gives you resources that can be used to increase the power of weapons with Fuse, not only that but breaking weapons results in stronger "pristine" versions of those same weapons appearing in the Depths, which makes fighting always be rewarding in one way or another. Lack of linearity in the dungeons wasn't directly adressed, but there are sections in the game with the linearity and puzzles that older Zelda games had, not in the dungeons mind you, but in the process of getting into the dungeons, the Puzzles to get into the Zora and Gerudo dungeon specially. There are probably a lot of other examples but those 2 are the most premanent criticisms I saw when BotW came out.

[@dudeman5303]

​@@mookiestewart3776in what way do you think this is an appropriate response? You're just pulling that out of your ass anyways

[@AniMana21]

the shrine/temple issue in BotW and ToTK was solved in previous zelda games. They were called dungeons.

[@pitshoster401]

Sadly the Zelda team forgot how to make those. Please understand.

[@mjesus850]

yeah its wild to me people find it fun to bline shrine lights or do some piss poor side quest for one

[@robnhood1416]

Plus good main story & good music.

[@tonkytc]

@@robnhood1416 Totk story and music are good. The problem is how the story is told. Please don't tell me that you like Wind Waker and Skyward Sword stories.

[@geschnitztekiste4111]

@@tonkytc Wind Waker had an impactful story. Link's family is wholesome and the whole idea that this Link wasn't born as the chosen one, but got the respect of the gods by his own actions is great. The Royal Family and Kingdom of Hyrule is also presented in a more morally grey light thanks to that game's Ganondorf who was way more nuanced and interesting than the one from TotK who wasn't even the same in previous games, so much wasted potential. And Skyward Sword had Ghirahim, Groose and the best version of Zelda. Entertaining characters that all develop over time and all play into the story well. What did TotK do other than throw a bunch of new concepts at you that don't mesh well with the existing lore, but acts like it does. Sheikah tech who? Yeah, of course the Zonai did everything the Hylians did (founding Hyrule, building the Temple of Time,) but way before them for some reason. The Triforce? What's that? But look at these cool new stones that somehow never came up before, they're waaay stronger than the Triforce ever was since they can actually harm the Master Sword.... Idk man, the story would've been fine if they just made a new setting with a new sword and a new villain, then it wouldn't have clashed with the existing lore and people wouldn't complain. Or at least give some new background to this new Ganondorf's motivations and the Triforce's absence. And in general, the characters could be better characterized. There may be more than in old games but that only matters if they are actually good. The characters in TotK all feel kind of cookie-cutter, even moreso than in BotW, where at least Zelda herself was interestingly written.

[@megamannt125]

The truly ironic thing is that Nintendo really did not need to go this far with the freedom. It was an over correction from Skyward Sword which was so strictly linear and handholdy that it may as well have just been a guided tour through a museum or aquarium. Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time both allowed you to do dungeons in different orders once you did the first three dungeons, and they did it without sacrificing world design or story or filling the game with bloat. Hell, even Wind Waker opened up the entire world to you once you completed the first three dungeons. I think Breath of the Wild was a great game, but Tears of the Kingdom proved that its formula does not hold up well beyond it. The problem is these games are SO free and with SO many options that it makes the games feel not like something that's a hand crafted experience but a sandbox demo where you're thrown into a big place with lots of tools and told to go screw around. It has its appeal, but it gets old eventually.

[@hubblebublumbubwub5215]

Yup. "Linear vs non-linear" is a false dichotomy. In-between is where the interesting stuff happens, from Banjo Kazooie to Dark Souls.

[@-404notfound-74]

dude omg- the sandbox comment...fucking YES!

[@tendracalrissian8820]

I've not played either game, and probably won't, but why not have TotK's story require link to liberate all of Hyrule from a combination of Gloom and Malice? The Four Realms of the Zora, Goron, Rito, and Gerudo could have been islands in a dying world, protected by their Divine Beasts. All the Hylians Link knows, and a lot of the other people, now live in those places, having lost all hope of salvation. For this to work, Zelda has to be thoroughly dead, not just partly dead, or mostly dead, but Ganondorf's fist through her chest dead, not coming back dead (until the goddess is reborn in someone else or gives her power to someone else). And Link, having been saved by Rauru's arm, needs to spend a couple of years, and most of his life force, getting put back together by Rauru's failing magic. Thus, when he awakes, he is a gaunt, holllw-eyed man with graying hair and a beard. He is driven by Vengeance, and his sole desire is to exterminate Ganondorf. Rauru (who isn't a goat, as that's just nonsense) gudes Link through a much abreviated Tutorial Island with four shrines that empower Rauru's Arm with the following: a short range hook-shot ability, the Extended Grasp; the Spectral Claws, which are used to cut or break things that can't be interacted with otherwise, and are Link's first new weapon; the Bolt of Light, which is used to activate crystal switches and other magical things, and is also Link's first ranged attack; and Ultra Hand, which can be used to pick up and manipulate objects that are too large for Link to move on his own, but you never gain a Fuse ability. These Shrines give you an ability for Rauru's arm, and then present a puzzle for you using that ability. Solving the puzzle rewards you with a Zonai Spark, which grants both a full heart upgrade and a full stamina arc upgrade, and lets you exit the Shrine. Other shrines you can find in the Sky gift you with a Zonai Spark, and then challenge you with a puzzle, and sometimes a combat encounter as well. From here, Link opens the King's Gate, and an overrun Hyrule is revealed. His overarching quest is to Take Vengeance on Ganondorf, but he can only do so by serving his people, meeting their needs and saving their land. Rauru warns that your quest will be a long and arduous journey, and Link will need all the power of the Zonai Shrines to complete his task. There need be only 27 of these, four of which you've already completed. Twelve of these remaining shrines offer upgrades to your Arm's abilities, and offer the most complicated Shrine puzzles of them all. These shouldn't be dungeons in size, but should be complex spatial puzzles that require you to use all your abilities to their full extent. If you haven't got the ability level needed to solve the puzzle, you'll be denied entrance. From the Sky Island, you can see the Sheikah towers in the distance. None stand quite straight, and all are spewing Malice into the sky, and oozing Gloom down onto Hyrule. From here, you can also see the Great Rift of the Plateau, the defining feature in the foreground, and Hyrule Castle floating far above the plain. When you dive to the surface, the true situation is revealed to be far more desperate than you thought: the New Town Link remembers is swamped with Gloom, and Malice Chained Hinox stand in the center court. Link is instructed to use the Zonai glyph at his feet to back to the Sky by Rauru, and we make our way across the Plateau Archipelago to a safer landing site, after which we guide Link across the Desert to Gerudo Town to meet Purah. Zeld's death comes as a terrible shock, as does Link's aged appearance. Purah tells Link that he needs to deal with the nearest Sheikah Tower, and the gameplay loop begins: defeat the enemy encampment around the base of a tower, kill the Gloom Heart at the top, use your temporary respite to jump to the sky islands you can now reach, finding Zonai Shrines and solving them before diving to the Depths to take on the boss of that zone. Defeat a few of these, and Hylians start building advance bases around purified Sheikah Towers. They ask you to clear some of the more important farmland and other sites that are needed for iron, coal, and wood. Eventually, you'll reach the Gorons, Rito, and Zora, and each of these places offers more quests and engagement with the people of Hyrule, and Link finally sees that these people and their well-being is his true purpose, not killing Ganondorf. But the Master Sword is still broken, and we can't rely on claws and bolts of light for every fight, so what is Link to do? Using enemy weapons works well enough, but bosses need more punch, and any Hylian or Sheikah weapons you find are wreathed in Gloom or Malice, and break just as fast as any other weapons. Well, those nice caves that were introduced, but ultimately proved boring, would make great hiding places for Zonai altars to Hylia. These would be rare, and would be well gaurded by Shadow Link copies, but cleansing one allows you to be healed and restored to full stamina, and you can purify weapons and shields here, too. Purified weapons of Hylian, Sheikah, and Zonai construction don't lose durability. These weapons must be rare, and worth exploring for. Making the player explore the whole overworld for these altars in each zone, which are essential, as you can't teleport anywhere anymore, at least not yet, drives engagement with the world in the same way that regaining Link's memories did in BotW. Once you've contacted each protected zone, Purah offers a potential solution to repairing the Master Sword: opening the Temple of Time and exposing the blade to the Holy Light of the Sacred Realm. To do this, you'll need to wake the spirits of the Seven Sages, which are buried in Tombs in the Depths. These Tombs are corrupted, and you must cleanse all seven before any of them have strength enough to talk in full sentences. They you that you need the Sacred Stones of Hyrule, and we go to the Forest Temple in Faron Woods, the Fire Temple in Death Mountain, and the Water Temple in the Zora Domain. We now have to find the real Temple of Time, (which is I don't know where) and open the door to the Sacred Realm. This repairs the Master Sword, but draws Ganondorf, and he too is restored. The final battle is fought here: you, with the repaired Master Sword, the Hero's Shade Armour, and the Hylian Shield against Ganondorf, with nothing but his hands and his sorcery. We can call back to many of the previous games, with Ganondorf taking many different forms, each more deadly than the last. The final form is just Twilight Princess's Ganondorf, with a sword and his skill against Link and his skill. A deul for the ages indeed. And so we fall between the too open-ended TotK and the too structured Skyward Sword quite nicely.

[@vadoslink446]

How did TotK sacrifice "world design" by being open? If anything, the world massively benefits from this, because unlike a shitty game like WW for example, you don't constantly run into item gates when you visit interesting looking things in the distance.

[@_emory]

Between the release of botw and totk I had two kids. My general feeling seeing this game was “I already spent 100 hours doing that, I don’t have time to do it again”

[@L_Zant]

Lmfao woh me too. Funny

[@thesis-and-nieces6722]

Yup same! The game did become a chore when it became clear to get zonai batteries you need zonaite etc. or korok seeds to get expansion. I pretty much stopped playing and never upgraded my armor past second level

[@fgclash454]

You’re a bum lol

[@noahjones9833]

​@@thesis-and-nieces6722agreed, it's to the extent that I genuinely would rather burn the game and never play it again than collect sufficient zonaite to upgrade it legitimately, which is why I'm absolutely livid that Nintendo keeps crushing every dupe glitch they can. It doesn't interfere with standard play style, it's only a willing choice to break the dev's honestly disgustingly incompetent game design for our own pleasure by those bored of it. The game as a whole needs some very fundamental changes and could be ripped to a 1/4th or even 1/8th of its size, like the video says, and it'd be better for it

[@Jade_of_Jaiden311]

Between the release of Botw and Totk my sister had six. She's unhinged.

[@fabriciodelesderrier2646]

The shrines feels like a training to something that we will do around the map.... but in the overworld the puzzles are more simple than shrines.

[@dudeman5303]

That's a good point actually. It's like they're tutorials that never actually get applied to the game whatsoever, there's no payoff whatsoever

[@fabriciodelesderrier2646]

@@dudeman5303 It could have less shrines e more overworld puzzles.

[@FutaYuuta]

I had this same thought as I was playing the game. There's a lot of shrines that introduce a neat idea and then they just end right when it feels like the tutorial is over. There are so many cool mechanics in TotK but it feels like none of them are used to their full potential.

[@ZerogunRivale]

Eh? I'm going to need examples on this one. Do you hold this as a consistent criticism of both BOTW and TOTK or just TOTK? Because I found the puzzles in TOTK's shrines to be way more ambitious than the ones in BOTW. Not only that, I found them considerably more challenging that the puzzles in the average Zelda game from the supposed "golden era".

[@fabriciodelesderrier2646]

@@ZerogunRivale I played more of TOTK so I'll stick to this one. I don't think there is a way to compare the puzzles from other games, just because it's a different aproach. I just wanted more puzzles in the overworld and less puzzlea with the same aesthetics in the background. The shrines for example could be more "natural Looking" to it.

[@etisvita3885]

I must say, whenever people say "but all that filler content is optional you can just ignore it" I just roll my eyes, it's an open world centered on exploration, the main point is to explore, if you ignore exploration what you get is a game with a weak story, simple and boring combat and dull and forgetable dungeons. Exploration IS the game, asking me to ignore it is like asking me to ignore DmC style meter. I don't want to ignore the core experience I just want that core to be better

[@Nitsirtriscuit]

Nintedo's recent run of "so much freedom" games feel more like flipping on God Mode. It's fun sometimes to turn on God Mode and go on a rampage, but it stops being fun when there are no stakes or challenges.

[@WeeG-bwc77]

Like playing GTA with cheats, fun for a tiny bit, but ultimately unfulfilling and vacuous. The Legend of Zelda without its "Legendary adventure" quality isn't Zelda at all. Without a story or compelling companions or dungeons with unique puzzle items to play with... what's all the exploring really for? Without an epic story which Grips the audience members, what are the cutscenes ultimately for? TOTK has thankfully outed the shallow nature of it all, whereas BOTW wasn't allowed to be criticized for years. But TOTK is already waking a lot of people up to the problems others saw 7 years ago.

[@vadoslink446]

@@WeeG-bwc77yeah, we need to be sent on fetchquest through empty hallways again to get legendary items like a spinner that gets used for 5 minutes until it becomes utterly worthless.

[@Sagasking14]

@@vadoslink446 Nonsensical comments like that is exactly why you tourists get shunned from other fandoms so easily; you’re too ignorant to understand, much less appreciate the values and defining features of a franchise, so you belittle them, insult them, and ultimately, only act like you have interest after the game has had its identity removed, just because you don’t understand what the identity even was. Case and point; the Spinner has limited uses outside the Arbitrer’s Grounds, but the simple fact it exists as an add-on to your tools will always be better than the Sheikah Slate or Rauru’s Arm. The spinner in an award for your efforts, the Sheikah Slate and Rauru’s Arm are given to you for no effort and never expand past the tutorial areas in terms of depth.

[@liarwithagun]

@@vadoslink446 As opposed to exploring an empty hallway to get mundane items like a set of 20 arrows with no story or puzzle significance at all? Clearly that is the superior option between the two. As flawed and bad as the old Zelda formula was, it was as good or better than the new style of games. At this point, I don't think either of these styles of game are fundamentally bad or better or worse than each other. I think at this point the problem is whoever is in charge of the 'mainline' Zelda games. They are just not good. The occasionally have a good idea, but overall are mediocre at best at their execution of those ideas.

[@vadoslink446]

@@liarwithagun Describing the new games as empty hallways makes me wonder if you ever played them. The old games are also significantly worse. In regards to the core aspects of Zelda (exploration, combat and puzzles) they are significantly more shallow. They also lack a sense of player agency, which makes their adventures feel more like guided tours where solutions to any problem are spoiled by the formula.

[@buttyiivii5851]

”Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game,” "One of the responsibilities of designers is to protect the player from themselves.” - Civ IV Developers Soren Johnson & Sid Meier Personally i feel this quote perfectly describes what went wrong with Tears of The Kingdom

[@zoomie7]

I dont know when the games industry unitedly decided open world= better game but 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@alexpotts6520]

The cynic in me thinks they actually decided open world = more marketable

[@renren47618]

Open-World + A lot of random shit for "content" = Better game

[@thesis-and-nieces6722]

Well keep in mind open world=better was BOTW. Then TOTK came and suddenly linear world = better has become a thing. How quickly opinions change

[@LZMP60]

​@@ElasticGoblinbotw was already a grind game with no real payoff

[@tyb.531]

@@thesis-and-nieces6722people always wanted linear sections in botw as well. There’s a balance that can be achieved between the two but neither game did

[@nobodyspecial1553]

As a child, I wished for expansive, open world games you could just explore and immerse yourself in... sort of a Monkey's Paw thing now in hindsight with how empty and boring all of them are. These days I much more appreciate focused and condensed experiences. Open world games would be much more enjoyable if the open world didn't also strive for such expansive landscapes to explore, if you were free to explore in a small world that always had something new and interesting instead of the Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V of the modern day "Open World." My feelings largely reflect your own: I too am done with open world games. If a game is described as expansive, open air/world or "endless" in some regard, I just avoid it now. Tears of the Kingdom was the last chance for me to love open world games again, I thought if anyone could do it, it would be Nintendo, but clearly they were too busy making "Nuts and Bolts" to focus on making interesting content that interacts with these new systems.

[@Erumore]

Well said - I agree on all counts. I've wondered myself whether I would have enjoyed this game more if I'd played it as a child. Maybe it would have captured my imagination better and I wouldn't have been as disappointed by the repetition? Anyway, I'm 100% done with open world games now - if Nintendo can't fix the genre's problems with six years of work then nobody will. Thanks for the thoughtful comment and I'm glad you found something to agree with in the video!

[@V1Salvo]

@@Erumoredoes that mean you won’t play the next Zelda game if it’s open world?

[@GUS-fc3jg]

​@@V1SalvoI definitely won't. Actually, I'll never buy Nintendo hardware again lol

[@ash8244]

They did fix it though? This game is outstanding, every other open world I can't play for more than an hour before I get bored... this game? I played 13 hours straight and was hooked the entire time, maybe Zelda just isn't for you, at least not anymore.

[@geschnitztekiste4111]

Agreed, the only interesting open world I like is that of Bowser's Fury, which goes to show that making a smaller world might just be the solution.

[@WerewolfKweef]

The Breath of the Wild games just made me appreciate Ocarina of Time, Majoras Mask and Twilight Princess even more.

[@dudeman5303]

Straight up dude, so much more! I already loved them a lot, including alttp (and everyone likes to shit on it, but I love Zelda II as well, it gets way too much shit for being just different as a Zelda game - it definitely feels unfinished as a game in some ways to me but overall it's a fun game and not as difficult as people say is, it clicks with you after a while tbh. It's a lot like Castlevania II Simons quest and that's a great game too), they just all actually had something to say unlike botw or totk, in botw and totk its just so tacky how they execute the story. Zelda has to tell link he's the hero like 2000 times as if the game is actually so difficult we need a pep talk every cutscene, I just got so frustrated by the constant fucking beat down of the same thing over and over. This game basically just says "ur the hero dude be legendary" over and over as if that is somehow supposed to make me cry or some shit.

[@Zyart]

@@dudeman5303 I've played through the first several Zeldas multiple times, including doing randomizers for them because they were just that much fun. Combined, I've probably done over 100 playthroughs. I'm literally doing a run of the OOT/MM combo randomizer right now, having just gotten the Song of Time needed to explore the MM side. Meanwhile, I have done and will do exactly one playthrough of TotK. There is nothing in that TotK that I loved enough to justify the sheer slog in that game. In the time it would take me to do anything besides just speedrun to Ganondorf, which defeats the point of a Zelda game, I could have played through Z1, Z2, and LTTP, if not even more.

[@samuel.d2103]

I love how you said botw game"s" lmao

[@c.nk.01]

and funnily enough, even though I don't love the open world style for the series, tears of the kingdom really elevates and makes me appreciate even breath of the wild so much more in retrospect. in spite of all the criticisms i have of it, you can tell there was a level of care and love put into every detail of that game that i just don't find in tears of the kingdom.

[@FsMetal-gk4iw]

Same. I missed dungeons so much playing BOTW

[@mrsnulch]

Man when you described your first experience with the depths at 22:26 it made me jealous that I discovered them the "normal" way. Falling in by accident, surviving the fall, and needing to use your resourcefulness to discover how to light the place up and make your way through the dangers beneath is what video games should be all about. Another of a long list of missed opportunities in this game. Also, all very well articulated - subbed 👍

[@JCardo2502]

I miss the linear games. Resident Evil 4 Remake was actually refreshing to me because for once it wasn’t open world

[@Lucrei.]

@@JCardo2502 so unfortunate that it plays nothing like the original game though 😔

[@chazzilla8919]

​@@Lucrei. Why is it unfortunate? RE4 remake is fantastic, I'm glad that it's different

[@Lucrei.]

@@chazzilla8919 that's your opinion. Many people think the original was perfect so changing it is a sin

[@chazzilla8919]

@@Lucrei. umm... that's also your opinion 😂

[@Lucrei.]

@@chazzilla8919 Correct - that's why I was stating it

[@Astro_Crunch]

What's especially disappointing about the game snatching the impact of Zelda's sacrfice away is that, out of so many big, long-running video game series, Zelda is probably one of the few that could've gotten away with making a permanent change to its world and characters. Every game in the series has a self-contained story, and aspects about worlds, characters, mechanics, lore, etc. change on a regular basis. They could've easily kept the consequences of Princess Zelda's choice intact while also being able to ignore them for the next Zelda since it'll likely take place in its own world. It's a rare opportunity to be able to literally have your cake and eat it too, and this one was unfortunately wasted.

[@erikn.9180]

they couldve just give us an open end on zelda, like hint at a possibility that she can turn back into a dragon but dont do it and just end on that or give us an zelda tp ending

[@tsrenis]

(Long comment warning) The reveal about Zelda being the Light Dragon completely RUINED me and when she just turned back into a hylian through... ghost magic(?) it did feel kinda hollow. Of course I won't deny I was incredibly relieved by this, but in hindsight it does feel like a massive copout. I was thinking about a future without Zelda, how Link would cope with that, how we move on when someone we love just leaves so suddenly. I had an idea of a story in my head where he'd basically become Abby from TLoU 2. A jaded wreck of his former self, taking control of Hyrule as some sort of emperor. Hell bent on completely annihilating the Yiga Clan and everything it represents. Yeah this bit sounds like kinda trite grimdark fanfiction material but the point is I was thinking about what could be done. The numerous fanworks that theoretical ending would've supplied us with. The whole game's theme was moving on, the quest that embodies this theme the most (to the point that subtext basically becomes just text) is the Hateno Village quest. Almost everything was pointing towards Zelda being a part of that past.

[@videozz2012]

Waaah waaah cry me a river

[@dynawesome]

@@tsrenisI spent a lot of time between the reveal and beating the game and so for me there was a lot of time to process it and let it sink in so her actually coming back in the end was so happy

[@tsrenis]

@@dynawesome To me it still feels like a bit of a cop out. Like magical ghost hand magically magics dragon into normal Zelda magically. I mean, the Triforce is an in-universe option that they could've brought back for that instead. Heck, I'd even be fine with Zelda being back if we had a postgame that would've been pretty cool. Imagine a postgame where we rebuild Hyrule, building is literally a part of the game. There are multiple ruins begging to be rebuilt and resettled.

[@phosphorus9867]

I have always kind of felt this way, but it seemed like so many people gave this game raving reviews. I feels refreshing to have this kind of review.

[@KingdomHeart556]

It kinda blows my mind that some people don’t like this game, but that’s just my perspective on it. It is nice to see these kinds of reviews and see other perspectives on it.

[@NissanZaxima]

@@KingdomHeart556 It's less that "people don't like it" more so that people don't think it's this unanimous 10/10 game that everyone was raving about when it first dropped. For me I still enjoyed it but overall I was disappointed. I hold Zelda releases to a high bar and almost every single game has met that. In fact, TOTK might be the only one that didn't.

[@KingdomHeart556]

@@NissanZaxima well yeah I can see that I definitely wouldn’t give it a 10/10 but I definitely enjoyed it

[@nintendofan707]

Because people will buy anything with Zelda or Mario on the cover, and they know it. Why try, people will eat it up and give it high reviews. :/

[@dhLord64]

@@Goosewitdajuice317The old formula was getting stale. Twilight Princess was when I started feeling the series was getting that way. It was dated on arrival. SS delivered on feeling different to an extent but it was so linear. BotW was a \breath/ of fresh air.

[@Yuti640]

When i imagined Sky Islands in Tears of the Kingdom, i intrigued myself with the idea that progressing in Tears would be going higher and higher into the sky, Ganon being in Hyrule Castle at the top of the world, where you would very quickly abandon the world below to rise to the heavens i wish we got that game

[@TheTwilitHero]

The advertising felt so dishonest. Hyrule castle rises, but only like 30 feet. From the trailer, you'd assume caves and the depths were connected, but no for some reason they're completely different things. Big sky islands in the trailer. Precisely one large one ingame.

[@ZeroKitsune]

Someone probably said this already in the comments somewhere, but, in Breath of the Wild at least, I figured out how Flurry Rush works pretty quickly. It's not random, it's just dumb. See, having it LOOK like you perfectly avoided an attack doesn't actually do anything, all that really matters is that you did the jump dodge while an enemy had an active attack hitbox somewhere near you. That's it. You can deftly dodge sword swipes all day and get nothing, but if you sidestep so it whiffs entirely, then jump when the attack is almost finished, you'll get it pretty much every time. I stress that this is the case in Breath of the Wild, because I feel like Flurry Rush was tweaked in Tears of the Kingdom somehow, and I never was able to figure it out this time. It seems like it mostly works the same way, but the timing windows are either more restrictive or just different, because I found it really inconsistent in this game even though in the previous game I got to the point where I could do it against 95% of all enemy attacks consistently.

[@hubblebublumbubwub5215]

Also it's a pointless mechanic. It's like witch time in Bayonetta except you can only do one thing, thus there's no gameplay.

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

I cannot for the life of me figure out the flurry rush in TotK, which is a big problem considering the fight against Ganondorf pretty much requires it

[@brenscott5416]

It's beyond forgiving in both games, I think in totk it's just not completely busted so you have to be in a dodging animation I believe since I was able to consistently pull it off on lynels the same way I did in botw with basically no change to my strategy

[@revonfyll]

You're one of the few I've seen speak about how limiting the inventory would result in a better game. I feel both BotW and TotK would be far better games if you could only bring a small amount of items with you. Let's say you choose a loadout in stables, but once you go out in the wild you are left with your choices. A few weapons, a few shields, a few meals and a few consumables. Heck, I'd even extend that to the armors. Link's most OP ability is his unlimited size pocket.

[@chaosprime1629]

i have not upgraded my inventory in tears and while the stealthing is frustrating for sneak strikes, i do feel like i have to manage my resources and not depend on powerful weapons. this actually makes weaker weapons have a purpose because you don't want to waste a savage lynel bow on an enemy that is taken out in one hit. the stronger weapons should be reserved only for tougher enemies. bows in both games are also pretty broken.

[@Faceplay2]

Honestly, they should’ve just copied Bethesda and every other main RPG game and have like a chest that you could drop off all your items in at your house also, the whole breakable weapon things always so stupid

[@chaosprime1629]

@@Faceplay2 well link's house does have the weapon display rooms you can build.

[@Faceplay2]

@@chaosprime1629 yeah like space for like five weapons. It’s total bullshit. There’s a reason why every other video game RPG under the sun does a chest. What are my biggest problems with breath of the wild in tears of the kingdom is breakable weapons because then it doesn’t fill worth it to go find them, when I find a new weapon in the Witcher or Skyrim, Fallout, Dragon’s dogma or literally any other RPG game that’s like ever come out in the past 25 years. It feels worth it going out in completing a quest to get a cool weapon or item TOTK needed that. Heck, they could’ve had a side quest that allows you to unlock the master cycle again. Of to get the horse saddle that allow you to teleport your horse anywhere.

[@chaosprime1629]

@@Faceplay2 i miss the ancient bridle and saddle. the cycle zero was removed because of autobuild being a thing. the problem i see with durability is no counter and also weapons feeling too good to use especially when long throw is a gold skill. tears also has the issue of being very grindy for materials and too much rng from weapon bonuses. i noticed most entries fujibayashi worked on are guilty of one of these two features.

[@Cheesehead302]

What you said at the beginning here is borderline EXACTLY what I've discussed my biggest problem with this game is. You have this collection of systems, namely ultrahand, fuse, all the physics stuff, that are some of the most well constructed and mechanically sound versions of this type of stuff I've seen in a similar video game, all somehow working flawlessly on hardware that is going on 10 years old at this point. So there's all of this complex stuff, so much so that it can actually take quite a little bit of time at the beginning of the game to wrap your head around how exactly everything controls, because there are just so many possibilities with it, but its actual implementation is the MOST surface level utilizations of it. You can make mechs, play music, create a calculator, all of this crazy stuff possible, yet the game itself only ever asks you to "put these parts together in the most obvious way possible" in the case of a lot of shrines, or make the vehicle that is unequivocally the best solution anywhere on the map that you are over and over. It's kinda the same problem I have with allowing for multiple solutions in so strict a way that they do: it just makes it so you do the least time consuming one and best option every time, which is the ABSOLUTE OPOSSITE of encouraging the player to experiment and be creative with the mechanics. Especially considering there is a big crowd of people that enjoyed Botw not for the shrines or koroks, but because of the world, there will be a lot of people that just wanna get on with their journey and see no point in messing with a system that at the end of the day, is completely useless practically speaking. So then if you are a person who largely doesn't care about that, and just want to explore a cool new world, TOO BAD, it's the same world from before and every addition to it is just as meaningless as the ultrahand system. (I've got a lot of problems with the progression system as well, a lot of realizations I've come to after playing Tears, but I'll stop here.) It's just massively sad to me that this amazing system was seemingly wasted on a game where the developers seemed too scared to make the solutions anything other than the most simplistic thing ever.

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

As someone who loved BotW i was so excited for a sequel, and was left very disappointed as someone who couldn't give less of a shit about the building mechanic

[@SchmavidSchmobb]

I think the best point he makes is this video is that the longer you play the game, the worse it gets. My first 10 hours, I literally thought this was the greatest game humans could ever conceive. The next 15, i took off my biased, rose colored glasses and started accounting for the flaws and problems that hadn’t been fixed from BOTW. The last 10 hours were completed out of spite and boredom.

[@tyb.531]

This is the first Zelda game that I haven’t even finished and don’t intend to. Open world Zelda isn’t for me I guess

[@jonathanwilliams1271]

I just don't understand what the SIX YEARS were spent on...

[@kkb_7267]

I've seen a lot of people smarter than myself talk about how ultrahand is just mind-bogglingly impossible from a physics engine point of view, and it seems like that's the gist of what took THIS long to release I'm not super happy since that's not really why I play Zelda games, but it seems like that's the main reason for the wait

[@N12015]

In unironically making the game too easy to cheese.

[@rockowlgamer631]

​@@kkb_7267Mechanics can be fine and all but they forget story and new locations would've helped tremendously. Link going back in time with Zelda would've been better AND having Zelda as a companion.

[@Chichirumiru]

​@@kkb_7267 GMod had a better Version of "Ultrahand" a decade before Zelda...

[@thadplunger832]

@@ChichirumiruI was gonna say, didn’t valve already solve this lol

[@firestarter6488]

TotK should've just been a new game+ expansion as a DLC, not a full game.

[@blackchickiedee7]

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@Regigigas_YT]

It was going to be, and as a person who really liked it, I can say we could just have used it as a sort of Persona 3's "THE ANSWER"

[@PixelPikmin]

@@Regigigas_YTAs someone who absolutely loves P3 (favorite game ever) and has Botw in my top 10, I 100% agree. I mean Atlus is even selling The Answer as dlc right now for Reload, I can definitely see Nintendo having sold this as a $40 expansion

[@unison_moody]

The most frustrating thing about all this is that with BotW and TotK the Zelda series became "just another" open world game, with the same tropes and things to do that are in all the other games on the market. But tell me one more game like legacy 3D Zelda that isn't the nearly 20 year old Okami.

[@pitshoster401]

I honestly couldn't. It's a type of game that is essentially dead now and that really sucks.

[@anarlote5658]

I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one who has been sorely missing legacy Zelda, and who has been looking for something to fill that void. Closest I've gotten is Okami and to a lesser extent elements of the Soulsbourne games. I never really got the complaint that 3D Zelda gameplay was stale, I loved Skyward Sword and it's dungeons for what it was. While I enjoy BOTW and its sequel, I really miss dedicated dungeons and the sense of progression legacy zelda had.

[@acamera367]

Legacy Zelda is peak, the items gotten usually were few but were allowed to be used creatively for the most part, especially in Wind waker where I always felt like I had a use for them. Twilight Princess showed off even more unique items that just made me want to see what could be came up with. Not to mention how the dungeons felt like they built upon lore we weren't around to see.

[@liarwithagun]

The closest I've found are indie puzzle games like "Tunic", but that still doesn't capture my imagination like the old style Zelda games do

[@GrammarNaziAUS]

Darksiders.

[@H-TownGamer]

The map was too massive for no reason. What’s the point if there’s no content just more space

[@jamesrochester2459]

It makes no sense to write off the Zelda series between Majora's Mask and BOTW as formulaic when the open world game was already a far more oversaturated formula than traditional Zelda games ever were, and BOTW very much adopted that formula. What really happened is that you (and many others) simply preferred open world games to the more niche subgenre that Zelda occupied before BOTW, and so when it became another open world franchise your interest in the series naturally went up. And that's fine, but let's stop pretending that linear style Zelda gameplay was some tired, overdone trend but open world gameplay was fresh and exciting. In fact with BOTW Zelda games became less unique in many ways.

[@arbbr9397]

I ENTIRELY grew tired of gloom hands and phantom ganons. First encounter - crazy. Best moment of the entire game. Every subsequent encounter exponentially diminished my enjoyment of them to the point of hatred. They’re in all the mazes, in the overworld, in the depths, so when I completed the deku tree quest and found that the thing I had to do was just kill another phantom ganon it was such a letdown. Not to mention there’s a point in the story where you fight like 15 of them, which is cool, but maybe if I’d seen them once before, not after having fought dozens. And the final boss first form is literally phantom ganon.

[@taniahylian3799]

Honestly, the most disappointing thing about the hands is that they die if they can't reach you in a certain amount of time after they see you. After I discovered this, I no longer feared them and didn't even bother to kill them (and Phantom Ganon) again.

[@MrFoxInc]

28:29 is such a big one for me. While I absolutely love the clothing mechanic from an aesthetic and roleplaying point of view, it's discombobulating to me that hardly anyone seems bothered by the pretty lame scenario of "Oh, the game says it's gotten a bit cold now, gotta open up the menu, find the clothing set that I need and now the whole situation is trivial." People hated the Water Temple in Ocarina for this exact reason, to the point that even Nintendo fixed the problem in the 3DS-remake. But that at least had a tangible gameplay factor: Without the Iron Boots, you couldn't dive as deep as you had to. In BotW and TotK, it's literally just "Yeah, you COULD still get to where you need to be, but it's a bit harder now, because... reasons. So change your clothes on the spot." It's not a major issue, it's just surprising to me that people are somehow okay with it here. And I agree, permanent upgrades would have been cooler. In fact, I imagine it would have been fun if Link gets more and more permanent accessories over the course of the game (like the Goron's Bracelet and the Titan's Mitt) so he starts out bland but by the end of the game, he's adorned by all this stuff that makes him look like a proper hero with a tough journey behind him that steeled him for all challenges. I hope they do that in the next game!

[@WolforNuva]

It's the difference between someone asking you a question every few hours, versus someone asking you one every five minutes. When done sparingly it's tolerable, hardly worthy of note even, but when done constantly it's a pain in the ass. When you equip an outfit in BotW/TotK you manage your inventory screen once and then you are free to wander the climate. At worst you're in the desert and you need to change your outfit sparingly with the time of day. Aside from defensive values you're never punished for not changing back when you leave either. Iron Boots however needed to be taken on and off constantly in order to navigate the water temple, made so much worse every time you make a mistake and have to renavigate parts of the dungeon, and keeping them equipped punished your movement speed.

[@MrFoxInc]

@@WolforNuva That's a good point and I get that the iron boots _were_ more annoying, but changing clothes being _less_ annoying doesn't really make it a good gameplay mechanic either. And like I said, the iron boots had a tangible function, allowing you to explore a part of the game that you couldn't before and with how the Zora's mask worked in MM, the whole thing actually became pretty fun and a skill you could learn. In BotW/TotK it's merely just "hey, this icon on your screen says it's cold, but nothing else changed. Put on some clothes." I just think these would have worked better as permanent, passive upgrades (aka why can't I wear cool earrings and a cool hat at the same time??)

[@WolforNuva]

@@MrFoxIncI wasn't saying it was a good mechanic, just that it's very mild compared to the iron boots, and that's probably why not so many people are up in arms about clothing while iron boots are infamous. And yeah I think the passive upgrade idea would have worked out well too. I do miss seeing little items build up on the core character as you progress, not many games seem to do that anymore.

[@ZaiDrizzleDrop]

1:27:27 this sentence resonated with me HARD, Although i didnt finish the game because i eventually just got so BORED, everything just felt like a chore.

[@pg9193]

same, I got about 30 hours in and dropped it. the vapid gameplay, the tedious control setup and the piss-poor performance were all such a major turn off after having played gorgeous, buttery smooth 60fps masterpieces that weren't recursive, self-fellating reruns of BOTW

[@Doodoovessel]

Dude same, I stopped at like my 80th or 90th shrine. I was like bruh what’s the point.

[@netweed09]

@@Doodoovessel Newsflash: you don't _need_ to do the full 150. That's the whole point. Plus 80 something is a _lot_ for someone who apparently hates the game. Hmm, odd. I hated Breath, I barely gave it 30 shrines before calling quits out of the sheer boredom, blueness and monotony and the fact I knew by my 2nd Beast all the 4 ''bosses'' were laughable, insipid blobs of gook. Sapped the gaming life out of me! Thank Goodness for Tears (but only after 7 long years!)

[@doomslayer8985]

Same bro, i think the only open world games im gonna touch are Rockstar Games (GTA and Red Dead Redemption) because most open world games use the same stale formula (explore., grind, and repeat) i beated this game twice and pounded +80hrs and genuinely it was an amazing experience but sadly most open world games are designed to be played once and drop, they lack replay value due to the massive bloated and filler content it doest feel fun to do it many times, like this game hit me like a truck cause i felt so disappointed due to massive anticipation i had, like i can replay any old zelda game thanks to the linearity, amazing content quality and among other things.

[@netweed09]

@@doomslayer8985 ​ Ok, at least you have sense (and actual Good taste) in that you _did_ enjoy Tears. So, you're one of the (few) more sensible critiques here. However: I disagree about replayability. For me sandbox games are designed to be _more_ replayable. I've played nearly all the linear classics like Thief 2/3 , Mass Effect 2 and Alien Isolation: and compared to say Tears & Oblivion, they just don't 'hold up' as well long term however Great they were.

[@bulb9970]

Thank you so much for speaking this to a wider audience. This is what’s killing modern game design: Lack of challenge and filler content. My disappointment with BOTW is what made me notice this issue and not play TOTK. Out of my ~40 hours with BOTW I realized only the first 10 were spent doing something substantial while the rest were just walking through an empty land and collecting pointless stuff. All the advertisement consisted on “You see that mountain over there? You can go there”. You indeed CAN go there but turns out there’s nothing to do. At most there’s an arbitrary Korok seed or an easy shrine that doesn’t test your skills or intelligence. So what’s the point of making and advertising such a big empty map? Wasting the player’s time. After those first hours of discovery BOTW gets utterly boring and doesn’t challenge you whatsoever. Just repaint enemies with bigger healthbars and continue exploring with dull music. I know it has already been said a lot of times, but indie games fill the void that AAA games have done. A game doesn’t need to be a high budget spectacle in order to be good. In fact, it’s better if it DOESN’T do that. They feel more like movies than anything else now. Games need to be challenging, cut the filler and get straight to the point. It’s no wonder mainstream audience doesn’t find games fun anymore. They judge quality by how many hours it takes to beat it, and not by substance of your actions. You’re transforming gaming into a chore to feel you got your money’s worth. It isn’t just micro transactions and unfinished products, gaming isn’t fun anymore because their bloated design now is inherently anti fun. Everything I play is either retro or smaller scale games that understand this issue, and to me it’s still as fun as ever. And having more niche audiences allow them to take more risks with new creative ideas. I’m not personally a huge fan of classic Zelda, but it’s sad to see that it turned into… this. Give me Wind Waker any day over this snoozefest.

[@ACW-dn9wb]

You're absolutely right. Ive been saying that for a while now. The purpose behind the things to do in the world are non-existent. And even the set things to do in said world is limited. Nintendo has no excuse woth how big they made it and how much time on their hands that had to make either game. So disappointing.

[@awsome182]

It was the same for me. I already disliked BotW and was bored to no end (didn't finish it, however I spent a few more hours than you and finished 3 Divine Beasts and uncovered the entire map) that I made the educated decision to not invest time and money into TotK. And the reviews I've seen so far prove my initial intuition. Even hardcore Fans of BotW, like Bandit, are not satisfied with TotK, which I find ironic because they are now complaining about the exact same things I've already been complaining about in BotW.

[@saber4461]

i completely agree with you! the first 10 hours of my botw playthrough were fun as i explored and discovered new things. however the next 20 hours were terrible as i slowly realised i had already seen everything, the only things left were awful korok seeds in variations of the same 6 puzzles, mind numbing shrines, busywork like opening the menu and changing to a different clothes, enemies i had already seen and huge, plain mountains with nothing on them! the sad part is that TOTK could have been amazing if they didnt add sky islands or depths, and instead populated the map with FUN interesting dungeons, new terrain, well-designed actual gaming experiences and characters with stories and depth. im tempted to do what youve done and try indie games from now on instead.

[@revonfyll]

I'm done with open world games too. I feel there's an inherent flaw about trying to make a gigantic circle into a worthwhile gaming experience. Never before have I seen so many games suffer from the same problems, it's clear to me that developers can't work around the demands of an open world game. The space itself is a huge mechanic and no one has figured out how to use that to their advantage. It's sad, because the immersion aspect is so strong people keep giving these games a chance and they convince themselves they're playing a great game, but what they mostly do is be mesmerized by the beatiful vistas. Vistas are nice, but behind those vistas, a better yet smaller game could exist.

[@Drstrange3000]

This is one of the best descriptions of how I feel about the boom of open world games their shortcomings.

[@eeeeggnog._.]

I got pretty worn out from tears of the kingdom too, but I think the genre itself can still be worthwhile. Xenoblade X is my favorite open world game as it feels like it doesn't suffer from the overwhelming size like this game and open worlds in general do

[@iamLI3]

exactly right , we're trying to play video games here not watch interactive movies.....

[@Actual_Gabe]

I think my last dip in open world will be the Elden Ring DLC

[@Adam_U]

Literally every open world game I've ever played felt like the developers were desperately struggling to justify the existence of that open world, and imo failing.

[@ThatGastrodon]

The inventory being a problem can be proven with two words: Eventide Island. It was the highlight of the previous game, and led to the most interesting shrines in totk. In general I think inventories lead to worse gameplay in most games, but it's particularly bad in the recent Zelda ones because there is so much opportunity for creative problem solving that gets ruined by leaning on the same few premade solutions.

[@kingsugoyt]

It just bothers me that we waited what? Four years? And it wasn't even on the level of Majora's Mask which was made in about a year.

[@hydra4114]

6 years

[@amandaslough125]

​@@hydra4114With only 4 years of development. Well 3 of you remove the year of debugging. 2 if you take into account the team was working on whatever new game with whatever great ideas while we were waiting for the last DLC release, and then the team saw fan videos abusing the physics engine and decided to use that as inspiration for a new game gimmick and forced the team to start over.

[@colecube8251]

​​@@amandaslough125what are you talking about? totk started as dlc for botw and started development directly after champions ballad was released. That was 6 years ago, so about 5 and a half from when totk released. even if you take off the year of debugging (which I think is bullshit because that's still development time???) that means this game took 4 and a half years to develop. And keep in mind that they already had the characters, art style, gameplay, controls, ENTIRE MAP, etc, etc. 4 and half years for so much copy and pasting is ludicrous

[@matmate5795]

​@@colecube8251you are kinda doing a lot of assuming here man, it's not really know how many ideas they took from the breath of the wild dlc. The one year they spent debugging came after they already had finished developing everything in the game.

[@colecube8251]

@@matmate5795 I'm not making any assumptions, you can google it. it's the first result if you search up "when did totk start development?" also... wdym? I'm not assuming that the game uses the same map, characters, etc... I mean... just look at it??? it clearly does what?? also, I know they spent a year to debug. but you don't know what they were actually doing during that time. I am assuming here, but I highly doubt they spent an entire year solely debugging the game. They could have been making new shrines, caves, koroks, side quests, etc. Aswell as tweaking how different things work. (this is just a theory. another possibility is that some devs debugged while others started work on a new game). regardless, they were still working on the game during that time, and we still had to wait during it, so I'm unsure of why it should be removed? but anyways no matter how you slice it, this game was developed in 4.5-5.5 years

[@Chichirumiru]

Weird little rule I've noticed in the last few years: Games that call themselves "Open World" or brag about their big open worlds tend to be empty soulless trash. Yet the games that actually have great open worlds like Dark Souls 1 or Link between worlds aren't even considered when people talk about open world games. Open world is the biggest red flag in gaming right now. Watch out: "We were to lazy to create an engaging world filled with content and an interesting story so we'll give you this auto generated wasteland instead. What? It's empty and boring? No... it is REALISTIC... Here is a Horse and fast travel so you don't have to waste your time with this trash :)"

[@Adam_U]

The fact everyone uses fast travel really does prove how open worlds are just a waste of your time

[@JAYJAYBEBE]

It's not a waste of time, you can discover things along the way, like caves, hunt for food and things to mix elixers with, fight enemies and steal their treasure and weapons etc.

[@Chichirumiru]

@@JAYJAYBEBE Ahh yes _Things_ I love to "discover" _Things_ . Too bad there aren't any interesting things to "discover" in this game, unlike in 90% of the other Zelda games... Caves are a waste of time since their loot is either some trash armor I'll never use(if you are lucky...) or a giant wall of breakable boulders just to waste your time, probably both... Hunt for food? My entire inventory is filled with food items, but the only ones that are actually worth the seconds it takes to pick them up are "hearty" food items. Elixiers are useless since the game is so laughably easy I had to handicap myself by wearing only the tutorial armor and only switching to the un-upgraded ice, heat and fire resistance armor when needed. It's a good thing the tutorial armor also happens to be the best looking armor set in this game I guess. Fighting enemies is punished by the game since it wastes your weapons while giving mostly worse weapons in return. What it does encourage is to cheese kill the enemies with bombs or ice arrows so you don't loose any valuables while still getting all the loot. And what "treasure" are they guarding exactly? Some gemstone I'll just sell to buy more arrows? The worst part is that you are literally immortal... You can NOT DIE in one hit, you will always stay at 1/4 heart and then you'll just heal up with your unending supply of healing items... The best part in BotW and TotK are the tutorials, after that it slowly just keeps getting worse and worse. I couldn't even be bothered to complete the fire and desert "temple", did only like 20 shrines, killed ganon and then sold the game. God, I really can not wait for Zelda Indigo to release...

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

The emptiness worked for BotW because you woke up without memories in a post-Calamity world. I actually loved how melancolic BotW felt. But TotK has no justification for it's emptiness. And by "empty", I don't mean that TotK has nothing, there are millions of items scattered everywhere, but none of it means anything. Why are we getting the Phantom Ganon outfit from Ocarina of Time when completing Zonai mazes? These two things cannot be less related.

[@Chichirumiru]

@@sophitiaofhyrule Just because the bad game design is intentional, doesn't mean it is suddenly good game design. BotW gameplay has nothing to do with Zelda gameplay. Zelda was a Metroidvania since Zelda 1 and now they expect me to accept a different genre with the same Name as a Mainline entry??? You run around an empty wasteland, killing enemies for no reason, completing "puzzles" that are so boring and simplistic that a chimp can beat them and in the end you'll have achieved nothing. BotW is a garbage AI generated AAA Open World Sandbox Tech-demo. TotK is a direct upgrade to a garbage game, too bad it didn't fix any of the problems BotW had and is thus still just slightly less garbage...

[@unclerukmer]

It's interesting that a lot of the issues you pointed out apply beyond TOTK, especially to Starfield. In general, modern gaming is in a rut.

[@strictnine5684]

Even starfield has more to do with npc interactions and worldbuilding than TOTK. That’s the problem. Bethesda rinses and repeats and does better than an innovator attempting to revolutionize open world gaming.

[@FutaYuuta]

Play indie games, bro. AAA studios are a lost cause.

[@strictnine5684]

@@FutaYuuta I honestly kinda hope this is satire. Indie games have gotta be the most oversaturated “dead horse but beaten sevenfold” class of entertainment out there. They recycle the same concepts over and over and over but get a pass for it because of some slight variation. I think indie is the future but before I can fully support that notion I need indie developers to stop doing metroidvanias either open end exploration and insane boss difficulty/topdown game driven by visual and narrative storytelling about childhood trauma.

[@emptyorchestra]

​@strictnine5684 Finally! Someone else said it. The indies has literaly the same problem AAA games have. But because it is a ''passion project'' so they can get a pass with another metroidvania but this time it is not insects but animals WOW! Such innovation! Or another "hard to discuss" muh trauma story games. Gaming as a whole is rotting not JUST AAA games only.

[@unclerukmer]

@@emptyorchestra It’s a reflection of the degraded state of our society and culture.

[@adrienneladd8375]

this entire thing can be summed up as Quality is more important than quantity, and I definitely agree.

[@chaoslord8918]

A wise thumbnail once said, "Gee, it sure is boring around here."

[@brendanblair64]

It's always nice finding a critical video on this game, because I kinda hate it, and I felt like I was going crazy with all the unanimous praise. I'm happy for those who were able to enjoy it, but man I've never felt more alone with an opinion before. The reused overworld really ruined this game for me, and absolutely killed my drive to explore. I just felt so bored throughout most of my time with this, and the disappointment that came with that was so immeasurable. I never expected a Zelda game to burn me that bad. I don't know if I want to continue being a Zelda fan if this is a thing Nintendo keeps doing. That sucks so much, man. Anyway, good video. I didn't play enough to form as much of an opinion on a lot of this stuff as you, but I have a strong feeling I'd agree with most of what you said if I did.

[@pitshoster401]

Unfortunately Aonuma has said multiple times that Breath/Tears will be the new formula for Zelda going foward. Its over, Zelda is dead.

[@brendanblair64]

@@pitshoster401 I don't outright dislike the new Zelda formula. I think it can stand to bring back some elements of the older games, but I don't want them to stop making games in that style. My fear is that reusing overworlds is going to become a trend, which might mean I'd only like every other game from now on, and I don't think I want to be invested in this series anymore if that's the case. It still really sucks that the OoT formula seems to be dead. I get that people thought it got stale, but I also don't think Nintendo ever really tried to expand on it.

[@scubasteve2189]

The part that really stings the most, is that it took 6-7 years to make TOTK, which is just a lackluster rehash. If they had used that same time we could have had or at least been close to a NEW Zelda game. 😢 Heck, re-use the engine if they want to save some work, but give us a new map, new versions of Link and Zelda, new mechanics, etc. What a wasted opportunity.

[@blackchickiedee7]

You aren't alone, I and others see the problems TotK had and it definitely doesn't deserve the praise or the 10/10 reviewers are giving it. Honestly, it looks as though Aonuma saw videos on KZbin where people were being silly and constructing cooky devices and said "We should do that" and yes as impressive as these mechanics are, was it wise to make it the meat n potatoes of the sequel? Hmm I would say no but that's subjective. Not only do I agree that this game was unnecessarily big but I wish the devs put time and thought into other aspects of the game like the story, the map, weapons, armor, NPCs, dungeons, controls, characters. Instead we got a disappointing half baked mess of a time waster. I don't know if I'm going to completely give up Zelda but these past two games have made me worry as to what's to come. When your game has a title with LEGEND in it, I want to go a grand adventure with an awesome story, not use my time and resources to build things like I'm playing minecraft and it holds no significance to the plot

[@ash8244]

If you think Zelda is dead, you were NEVER a Zelda fan and you should be ashamed to call yourself one.

[@totallyjerd1751]

Open world games kinda killed my enjoyment of gaming for a while. I've only just started having fun again after shaking things up and playing Sekiro, which I enjoyed much more than its younger brother elden ring. For me, linear story-driven experiences are the way to go.

[@netweed09]

You do you then. Over *20 million* people think Open-world and Tears is the way forwards. But you stick to your corridors.

[@jogymogy3691]

​@@netweed09what's your problem? Depp

[@netweed09]

@@jogymogy3691 ? I didn't ask for your input, I was just stating a fact against his weird rant about Elden ring then prefering linear games on a (trash) opinion video over an Open World Zelda game. Go figure.

[@alyssashirey1536]

But no one asked for your input either.

[@humancollins5626]

​@@netweed09I prefer a linear game without much side content so then side content doesn't end up being a bunch of boss resuse

[@BarkleyBCooltimes]

If tears of the Kingdome came out 20 years ago, I'd probably enjoy it rather well as a kid. An open world game that lets me build something is exactly what I wanted, and there wasn't many options at the time. But now, with so many other games that do something that TotK does but better, I'd rather just play those games. It feels like too many AAA games are trying to have something for everyone and fail at being enjoyable for anyone.

[@feebleking21]

It's crazy that Nintendo can program the most impressive physics system I've ever seen on a toaster yet they can't get flurry rush to work after 11 years.

[@Scarletcroft]

Wow, I agree with you on so many levels. I'm on the final tempel now. But I struggle motivating myself to finish the game. Right now the only thing i'm intrested in is getting to the end as fast as possible. The enjoyment in the mechanics themselves and the world exploration is just gone at this point. Which is weird because right now Genshin Impact is more fun to me that Totk.....Why though? Anyway you have said everything that needed to be said. I was fine with the size of BotW, it is big, but I did do everything (exept the korok seeds). Totk, feels really pointless after Botw, because going on another collectathon (especially for stuff that I already had in Botw) with an even longer to do list is just not respecting my time for a single player adventure. The grind feels like it should belong in a mmorpg not a Zelda game.

[@ash8244]

"Genshin impact is more fun than totk" Congrats you let everyone on the internet know your an idiot.

[@kittenfan7664]

it's almost like these games aren't meant to be played to death. Also if you needed motivation at the time, i would say take a while without playing the game. it will be a lot more freash when you return.

[@Scarletcroft]

@@kittenfan7664 I already finished the story, and now the game has been collecting dust for about 2 months. I have played nearly every Zelda game and 100% them as a tradition. Botw and Totk are the first Zelda games I did not enjoy enough to 100% Botw I did almost everything it was fun until I only had the Korok seeds left. But TotK no thanks I havent even done half of it (It bored me so quickly) and I just don't care about it anymore. And Certainly Botw and Totk are not games to replay for me due to their vastness/grindyness. Perhaps you'll understand my point when I say that Majora's Mask remains my favourite Zelda game to replay. I actually still remember every quest and storyline. It was dense with stuff to do, that all somehow felt meaningfull, and thoughtfull. Skyward sword, Windwaker etc.. all feel more meaningfull, the characters more interesting and fun. I can with absolute honesty say that TotK is the only Zelda game I've ever come to Dislike more and more over time. And the more I think about all the reasons why. The more I dislike it. It's not a bad game objectiviely, but ....... I'd rather do my taxes than play Totk.

[@kittenfan7664]

@@Scarletcroft 100%ing these games was never intended. That's why half of the korok seeds do nothing, and you can't get full hearts and stamina. While everything is meaningful, it's meant for exploration. Getting so close to 100%ing BOTW probably negatively impacted your TOTK playthrough. I kinda knew the BOTW map but not enough to tell if certain things were always there

[@Scarletcroft]

@@kittenfan7664 Exactly thats one of the many reasons why I don't like totk.Botw had the favour of being a new experience. I am someone that wants to finish the things I like. That is just a part of my personality and how I live my life. Single player games should be 100%able imo and not contain huge amounts of copy/paste content. The content needs to be meaningfull. With such a big world map how do you figure out what is meaningfull and what is not......what parts of the game is worth my time? in Totk I found alot of it just isn't worth a second of my time, due to having botw nearly 100% and therefore TotK added bareley anything meaningfull. Honestly not even the main plot was worth the effort in the end. The best thing I can say is that the Final battle against Ganondorf was the coolest thing about the game. Look I enjoyed Totk for about the first 10 hours and the last 30 minutes.. for such a big world...the rest of it was just more of the same. Besides me just being frustrated with the clunky building mechanics to the point of avoiding using it at all. If I where the next Zelda games I would be elated to not have a such a build mechanic ever again.

[@Nick-yv1rm]

You deserve more views and subscribers. But its sad how people who speak the truth on games like these dont get the recognition they should get.

[@arbbr9397]

It’s crazy how I spent 200+ hours on this game and grew tired of every gameplay loop, and there were pros you talked about in this video that I just never got to even experience through no fault of my own.

[@kittenfan7664]

it's crazy how people playing 200+ hours might make anything boring. trust me, after a while try going back. it's what I did. i quit TOTK to play Elden ring and when i came back everything felt fresh again. playing the same game for 200+ hours is CRAZY, especialy if you don't play other games in between. variety is the opposite of bordom

[@arbbr9397]

I think you missed the point here. I was saying that I played it for 200+ hours, and I still managed to miss a lot of the positives this guy found in the game. My issue is that the content is very diluted. You have to sift through a lot of pointless or repetitive gameplay if you wanna see all the cool shit in the game, and you'll end up getting bored before you get to experience all the stuff they added because the game doesn't really value the player's time. Breaking it up is a good idea aside from that though, just wasn't the point I was making. @@kittenfan7664

[@Thierce]

@@kittenfan7664 I played 80 hours of Totk over the summer and quit once I had finished the main quest. I tried returning to it yesterday, beat 1 shrine and was immediately bored.

[@capncrunch4593]

One of the best RPGs of all time, Seiken Densetsu 3, figured out inventory back in the '90s; give the player a huge storage space for items but restrict what they can carry at any given time. It made each story beat more interesting because you had to prepare in advance and be conservative, or you may have to limp through a section with limited resources. And it made real-time item use less of a chore because your active menu was more streamlined. As another commentor said, TOTK should let you store items in a stable or at your house but only carry a certain number of items at a time. It would make those facilities more valuable, make the player more conscientious, and curtail the menu drudgery every time you want to fire an elemental arrow or grill a steak. Best part is that you can get to those storage locations basically whenever you want, but access is just inconvenient enough to incentive you to not abuse it.

[@Regigigas_YT]

Skyrim (and I believe other Elder Scrolls games) did this too: You can carry as much shit as you want, but the more you carry, the more you slow down.

[@AkinokazeHaruichiban]

I think the biggest flaw is likely down to being able to do anything, at any time, in any order. It's TOO open world. This inevitably results in a design ethos that everything needs to be created as though it's the first time you'll ever encounter it and forbids complexity and progression. Most open world games partially solve this, by having a main storyline. You are forced to progress this to gain new abilities, so this means that they can introduce side content at appropriate times [like in a game with 100 side missions and 10 chapters you can add 10 side missions to the map per chapter and increase the complexity and difficulty accordingly.] Now, that isn't to say this system isn't without it's own flaws, as it still promotes the addition of busy work as most developers seem to think that they have to make as large a map as possible and then make it as dense as possible rather than making the map size fit the story and for side content to be just as unique as the main content. Quality over quantity is always better. The moment they decided to make a direct sequel, they effectively trapped themselves. I, personally, have no issue with asset reuse between sequels. I think totally unique stories can still be told within the exact same gameworld [with or without the addition of set dressing to visually alter the world between games,] but the story told by the games industry [and perhaps players] is that you have to have a new map and that it has to be bigger. If they had shrunk the map and made the content filling it much less cut and paste, the game would be vastly better.... but pre-release would have likely been attacked online and savaged in reviews..... most likely with the usual accusations of "this is just repackaged DLC."

[@Chronoflation]

God, I hope you're right about Nintendo learning a lesson about scale and quality over quantity based on the criticisms of this game. Something tells me they won't though...

[@Chronoflation]

I can only hope they decide to make Zelda in 3 styles going forward. The 2D entries, the linear and limited 3D entries a la Ocarina, and the massive open-world 3D entries. Unfortunately, as they haven't made any actually new games in 2D or 3D and only remade/remastered those other types, I'm not sure

[@ash8244]

They have stated this is the new direction for Zelda going forward, I love traditional Zelda but it was time for a change.

[@amandaslough125]

​@@ash8244They stated after BotW it was the new Zelda direction but after TotK there was a comment that was a bit more vague on exactly what the rest of the direction next will be.

[@kamurotetsu4860]

@@ash8244 We haven't had a new traditional Zelda since 2013. Traditional IS a change at this point.

[@Chronoflation]

@@ash8244 I know, and given their post-TotK commentary, I am very scared for the future of this franchise. saying shit like puzzles with single solutions are old game design and who'd want to play that anymore is a fucking abysmal mindset. Aonuma effectively called every prior Zelda antiquated when most are genuinely timeless experiences. Not so for BotW and Tears. Heck, there are things that both do better than the other that makes the other one less fun to play after experiencing it, like having the ability to stock up on different arrow types instead of fusing for every single shot you fire is something BotW has over TotK. Fusion is awesome but so cumbersomely implemented, it creates a lot of UI issues for a number of players that takes away from the experience, not to mention how broken some of the "puzzles" are. Most aren't even puzzles. Genuinely, if they make another game in this style without making even a classic 2D style game, I hope it crashes and burns so that Aonuma can learn that everything he and the Zelda team made before BotW wasn't actually antiquated and not fun like he made it sound like he thinks. I'm genuinely happy Zelda finally found mass appeal, but hearing Aonuma talk about it feels like the soul has been ripped from the series, and hearing the disappointment in so much of the Zelda lore KZbin community has really just hit the nail on the head with how I feel for so much of it too.

[@leecoffill8425]

When I first played, and was still enamored with ToTK, one tool I was super excited for was the Autobuilder: in my mind, the Autobuilder would completely change the way I played, making the world even more interesting and engaging. I was half right. firstly, as mentioned in this video - traversal is completely trivialized, but honestly, it's even worse than that. Exploration for me generally came down to marking areas of interest, autobuilding a fan-bike, and just flying to the marked areas. And why would I ever do anything different? Even aware as I was of how much this was taking away from the game... it was impossible to seperate the hoverbike from exploration, because exploring *without* the hoverbike felt tedious when I was traveling in almost any other way. In the depths? Just toss a light bloom on the front, and the darkness isn't even a factor. Surface? nothing is out of reach. Sky islands? assuming you have a few batteries, you can fly from the ground to any island. The only time you need anything other than two fans and a control switch to get anywhere are when an area is too narrow to navigate with the bike, or when you have to carry something with you. And then you can just make a bigger fan bike. But Autobuilder also broke combat for me. not through contraptions, which were often expensive and not super effective against silver enemies with 700 billion hp. No, what broke combat for me was a simple trick of sticking two puff shrooms together, saving them to autobuilder, and then dropping them in literally any fight that wasn't a boss or a mini boss (or a lynal, which is totally a miniboss but it doesn't have a boss health bar for some reason). Or a like-like, but they're already so simplistic that it's not necessary. I would find an 8-fold katana with high base damage and attach a lynal horn to it for like, 72 damage before sneak attacks, drop a puff shroom (or autobuild them if I was out) and backstab everything for instant kills against even silver boss bokoblins. And why would I ever do anything else? With resources being... well, not rare, but weapon durability was a thing, so I didn't want to waste then in long fights against silver enemies, who became the standard, with reds and blues almost not even existing any more. As for the Lynal horn... I never had any reason to replace it, because as soon as I got the message that my weapon was about to break, I would just go get that goron kid to remove it. Because of this, I virtually stopped running out of materials. The only downside to playing this way was zonite resources - but that was barely an issue. 10 minutes in the depths was enough to get back up to 200 zonite or more. So... you know, trivialized.

[@BrianStorm742]

I'm on board with a lot of the criticisms in this comment section but this comment just comes off like you went out of your way to make things boring for yourself and are now complaining about it.

[@LZMP60]

​@@BrianStorm742no. The player should not have to limit themselves to have fun. Nintendo gives you a crafting system, naturally you're going to craft the most efficient vehicle everytime. Nintendo gives you a game where you need to mindlessly grind ressources because weapons break in 5 mins, so you use an intended in game feature as a work around. If the game is boring, it's not the players fault

[@kabindrapradhan840]

80 hours of my summer that I will never get back :/

[@septua]

I never finished BotW... When I was young I 100% OoT and Majora's, something about those games kept me going til the end and further but BotW formula just didn't fully hook me.. I found myself wandering around fields. It's an amazing, beautiful zelda game that's fun to play but something was missing for me and Tears will continue this feeling most likely. Literally the dungeons are missing so maybe that's it but maybe something deeper. I will beat Calamity Ganon someday but will not feel same as beating water temple, or killing bongo-bongo, or getting all the masks.

[@jacobj3933]

Because Oot and Majora focused on what Oot established as gameplay, while Majora tweaked bad improved on it, adding in the gimmicky Masks, but did not fully take up the main appeal, as the environment was fleshed out in so far as how characters, enemies and specific regions were connected or related to each other. And not solely making a certain mechanic it's main appeal/attraction for the sake of a pretty poor Zelda game.

[@netweed09]

''Literally the dungeons are missing so maybe that's it but'' ~ ? What are you talking about?? Tears of the Kingdom had *4 Dungeons.* 5 really; one which was done in a very unique way. I dunno _what_ game you played, was it Breath again?! But nope, when Nintendo try and be different; people moan. Moan and moan. Boring. Broken record. Oh well - at least *20 million others* didn't, lol.

[@davidbeer5015]

@netweed09 Aesthetically, they appear to be dungeons in TotK. Mechanically…..they’re very similar to the divine beasts just without the ability to have some form of control over it. Based on their comment of the Water Temple, they seem to be comparing what was in BotW and TotK to older temples that had potentially longer/linear/more complex puzzles.

[@hikawagetsbitches]

same, characters in MM especially encouraged me to finish the game. I think BOTW and TOTK shouldve done was ALBW did, where it’s a open world to an extent with a lot of work done to make its puzzles a bit less simple and more enjoyable.

[@hikawagetsbitches]

@@netweed09TOTK dungeons are just Divine Beast reskins. No way you play through the Wind Temple in TOTK and find the puzzles to be similar to the ones in WW’s Wind Temple.

[@Chichirumiru]

I did like 20 shrines, the wind and water "temple" got so bored of this game, skipped fire and desert "temple", beat final boss and sold the game😂. They won't be seeing any of my money anymore until they create a real Zelda game. Luckily modders are creating romhacks that are starting to become better then the actual Zelda games👍

[@pitshoster401]

That Indigo romhack for OoT looks better than anything Aonuma and Fujibayashi have put out in an entire decade.

[@acamera367]

I am so excited for more romhacks. Especially WW and TP romhacks too. WW has one that's gonna unflood the great sea and I'm curious how it'll feel.

[@Regigigas_YT]

It's crazy that Persona 5 out of all things did a better dungeons than two ZELDA games, the 1st "dungeon" games that come to your head!!!

[@ladyvader3173]

I love that YT is suddenly recommending me smaller but excellent creators.

[@havenfractal]

You make a good point about the game being better with less inventory. I previously did a "1 armor" run of BotW: once I put on a piece of clothing, I couldn't take it off. I ended up using 1 cold resistance (Rito hat), one burn resistance (goron pants), and the Zora Armor, which let me do 3 of the 4 Divine Beasts. By not engaging with the optional stealth+/climb+/speed+/attack+ outfits, I made more use of the meal system. Likewise, the game may be more interesting if you make a rule where you cannot heal while battle music is playing. Not sure how to fix the inventory problem. Having unique monster parts and all the additional fruits really adds to the game. Maybe have it be like Pokemon used to be, where you can only access your full inventory when you're in towns (or in Zelda's case, stables). Otherwise you have to choose your loadout of what to bring with you for each part of the game. Restricting non-monetary items to 99 instead of 999 would also probably encourage more experimentation and item use. Likewise, reducing the number of weapons/bows/shields to just 3 or 4 would probably be better to prevent hording. At the minimum, I wish I could "favorite" things from the main menu to the quick menu, rather than having the quick menu just list everything. I really don't need food items in the quick menu.

[@nillynush4899]

BOTW's honeymoon period for criticism - 3 years. TOTK's honeymoon period for criticism - 3 months. This is telling, but ultimately VERY necessary, BOTW threw out far too much of what made Zelda special. There needs to be a synthesis between old and new... but getting TOTK after >6 Whole Years

[@pitshoster401]

BotW should have been its own ip. I will never change my mind on that.

[@scubasteve2189]

This is a great point. I have a lot of issues with previous Zelda games. Something about the formats didn’t work for me. However, BOTW is my favorite game of all time. I would welcome the BOTW open world format blended with some of the linear elements and temples from other Zelda games at this point. 🤷🏻‍♂️ That could make for something really cool.

[@renren47618]

BOTW was a great introduction to a new formula, and with the lack of story and dungeons being such a huge criticism i thought that the devs would've focused on it in the sequel... Untill they don't With how most of the negative points from BOTW were barely fixed or they "fix it" in a very weird way, i feel like it's almost like the devs came and said "fuck you guys, we know what we are doing, can't you see how praised BOTW was? Didn't you saw our GOTY in 2017?" And did whatever they wanted It's really depressing how Zelda is descending in the same route as the Assassin's Creed series, and the fandom is accepting it so easily.

[@ausgod538]

The internet isn't the whole world stop going into social media and thinking it represents 20 million people

[@TheTwilitHero]

@ausgod538 Are you living in 1995?

[@heyhonpuds]

"older than most of you watching", weeps in his forties.

[@ekszentrik]

You probably often get "so you got 20 hours of enjoyable gameplay, what's the issue?" The thing about game is, you can't just account for quality time spent. How you ultimately evaluate it, how much it sticks in your memory (positively, or leaving a sour note), is also an important consideration. You also need to account for: what is the intended (length of) experience of a title? For TOTK, it's clearly more than 20 hours. The thing needs to be regarded more holistically.

[@whit3shad3]

Best review on TOTK I have seen! I'm always relieved to see that rare handful of folks, not only sharing the immense disappointment I had with this game, but also explaining in great detail why. You sir, have nailed it! Just a shame it's gonna take the majority so long to come to the same conclusions I had with the game even before the damn thing came out!

[@RedHatGuyYT]

"this review is the best because it agrees with my opinion" "it's gonna take the majority so long to come to the same conclusion as me" my god, dude. you're not the main character

[@whit3shad3]

"this review is the best because it agrees with my opinion" True "it's gonna take the majority so long to come to the same conclusion as me" Also true "my god, dude. you're not the main character" Correct, I'm just an NPC in your life

[@RedHatGuyYT]

@@whit3shad3 i respect your opinion. but i disagree with it. the beauty of opinions is that they're not right or wrong. have a nice night

[@Goosewitdajuice317]

@@RedHatGuyYT you really showed your ass. He responded to you and made you look stupid. You are definitely some backwater side character lmfao

[@sebastianfernandez6146]

This game made me realize I’m kind of done with open world games for now. I liked Mario wonder because it was fun, has potential to have you hooked for hours collecting, and it had a short story.

[@petercottantail7850]

I don't want open world games anymore either, but i don't think open world isn't the problem, but the resources required to make them good verses the target demographic who will stop playing after 6 hours means that openworld will never reach the potential we as consumers assume every open world game could potentially promise and result in copy pasting content

[@sebastianfernandez6146]

@@petercottantail7850 i can see that. I feel like the moment that devs are able to fill the world and actually put meaningful things inside of it than it will be awesome but TOTK really felt quite barren despite how “big” it is.

[@notavailable4891]

This is cathartic. I couldn't even finish the game, only a few hours in and I was so bored and frustrated I just couldn't keep going. I tried to pick it up again a few times over the course of several months, but I would find myself in the depths just having the worst time of my life and decided it'd be better to just watch a plot summary on youtube and call it a day.

[@FragLaw]

Previous 3D Zelda titles had absolutely no problem incorporating exploration and discovery into a fairly linear game. They could've fixed these issues by just making the map smaller instead of creating a bloated repetitive wasteland. That goes for every single open world game ever.

[@frogglen6350]

"When did Ocarina of Time ever encourage exploration? Most of the game is scripted. Egoraptor exposed this. Nostalgia bias

[@FragLaw]

There are dozens of collectables that you would never find if you didn't wander, many of which can be found in the hidden grottos which aren't required to beat the game. Even while you're on a straightforward quest you're rewarded for combing an area rather than bee-lining objectives, even if it's just a funny NPC interaction. It doesn't encourage exploration to the same extent as the later games, sure, but that doesn't mean it doesn't want you to stray from the beaten path. You're assuming I haven't played the game in years but have you played it all?@@frogglen6350

[@theking8347]

@@frogglen6350 Try forming your own opinions instead of parroting Egoraptor

[@FragLaw]

KZbin is trying to censor me because I speak the truth. You won't 100% the game without checking out every corner of Hyrule. Yeah it's a dated N64 game but adventure is at its core. You should play Ship of Harkinian, the 60 fps HD PC port, because the gameplay mostly holds up and it's a piece of gaming history. Egoraptor sounds like a stuck up nerd @@frogglen6350

[@LZMP60]

​​@@frogglen6350the fact you can go to any dungeon in any order after completing the first three. The fact that you might see a puzzle you cant complete yet because you need to come back with the boomerang, the fact there is two version of the map, one for kid link and one for adult link. Just because something is scripted doesn't meant it doesn't encourage exploration. Botw doesnt script anything and it ended up being a really boring game

[@trashtrash2777]

Finally someone feels the way I do. If I really had to pick between BOTW and TOTK I'd keep botw. I didn't know how to articulate it until now, but you've put all of my thoughts into words perfectly.

[@aimDiego]

The thing about TOTK is that it feels like a DLC, and I know originally it was meant to be one, but when they saw all the content for it they decided it was necessary it needed to be a whole new game, it's not bad, like at all, it just feels like extra content for the sake of extra content, it's just BOTW from an alternate reality, it does the same as BOTW, but it changes the aesthetics, the depths literally add a whole new level, but there's not a lot to do, and the sky does add some things to do, but it's very limited because it's such a small space, it is just a larger BOTW, with the main difference that completing it 100% is just more of a drag than in BOTW. Again, I don't hate it, it is a great game, just before you realize you've reached the point of mindless repetition.

[@charliez077]

@@aimDiego I agree with you completely except I don't think it's a great game, at least for me after playing BoTW it certainly isn't (I am not gonna call a game great when 70-80% of my time playing feels like a chore or stuff I had done million times already in BoTW - which I loved btw!)

[@aimDiego]

@@charliez077 yeah that's its main issue, I do think it's a great game, BUT, I've already played a smaller version of it, it's the same game, but big.

[@Jdudec367]

@@charliez077 I mean...I would say it's great since it really doesn't feel like a chore or stuff I had done in BOTW for the most part really.

[@ash8244]

If you think totk is a "simple dlc" to botw your braindead Do people have no clue what a sequel is anymore? By your idiot logic, super mario galaxy 2 is also "dlc" to galaxy 1 because you have the same basic moveset as the first game, your just in different levels, when both of those games offer up totally different gameplay ideas from eachother, besides the gravity mechanics. This comment section is full of braindead idiots

[@Poefred]

The repetition equating to a feeling of wasted time and boredom is only amplified by how much is copy pasted from the first game. Seriously I liked a LOT about botw but this game makes me forget I don't hate that first game. The skies peaked in the tutorial and the depths are the biggest waste of time physically possible. Topped off by a dev time that used to be long enough to deliver MULTIPLE dramatically different zelda games during, it's nasty. Majora's mask, wind waker, and twilight princess all released within a 6 year span, and that's not even getting into the handheld side of things. What a waste of time totk was.

[@J.DanielsThe3rd]

But dood, you can combine a box with a stick. It shouldnt be physically possible

[@davve346]

I've never had a problem with getting consistent flurry rushes, for me the problem is that they make combat trivial. Like if you're fighting a Lynel, you just wait for it to approach with an attack, dodge, flurry rush, rinse and repeat. Same with bullet time. My Gleeok fights were just jumping off a rock, bullet time some arrows, rinse and repeat. If bullet time wasn't a thing I would actually have to avoid attacks while shooting my arrows and won't have as much time to aim which would make combat more difficult and interesting.

[@BarkleyBCooltimes]

If I wanted to do repeated unfun tasks for little meaningful reward, I'd just work overtime.

[@jandastroy]

I personally agree with you in principle about being able to spawn whatever you want to solve a problem being a detrimental issue with the game. But then at the same time, if you're searching for something hidden in a cave and have to cover a lot of ground, it's satisfying to decide whether you want to go fast or sort it out in another way. The size of the world can sometimes impact how you want to traverse it. The level of choice allows you to jump over possibly interesting encounters, or just miss them entirely due to not running the right way. Armor bonuses and changing instantaneously is pretty lame though and it was the same in BOTW. Gear handling in general was a slog instead of a joy. In classic Zelda games, you have the ability to change your sub weapon at will and it works great. But in BOTW/TOTK you can change your whole loadout instantly, but sifting through it is a mess. Breaking weapons are on a whole other level to the point where as a player you either love the mechanic or hate it. It's a unique mess of a game.

[@BrySquatch]

Funny, I literally played for around 20 hours, and then got so bored I let my wife take over my game file. I spent probably 200 hours in BOTW, I didn’t have the time or interest to do that again. The new mechanics/enemies I mostly encountered in those first 20 hours. I casually joined back in to play here and there, but yeah I was just way too disappointed to give it my full attention. I’d love a simpler, more linear Zelda experience with excellent diverse dungeons and maybe a few of the fun ideas from here, but I’d be fine if they just started with a fresh new engine honestly. I know that’s probably not likely but I feel like they’ll be too inclined to continue reusing the same ideas if they continue using the same engine/assets.

[@glitchy000]

I went through the exact same experience twice with BotW and TotK. Amazement and excitement, so much promise, things level out, tedium, boredom, when does it actually get fun instead of just promising it?

[@7milesdavis]

Totk should have been dlc one year after botw. Six years later and it’s the same exact game with more empty space, doing the same things you did in botw. I went in with an open mind too. I figured since they were reusing the map they would try hard to differentiate the sequel in as many ways as possible, but nope. It’s the same game again six years later and it was ten dollars more this time. There are some cool ideas, just not enough to carry an entire game. The non linear dungeons are absolutely boring, as are the shrines. Everything feels like either busy work with no reward, or things I already did in botw. When your asset /world/ everything-reusing sequel takes LONGER than the base game, you are doing something wrong, you are missing the point of doing an asset reusing sequel. Majoras Mask accomplished it perfectly. I think botw was selling well for so long they held off on the sequel, there is no way totk was in active development for six years and if it actually was they should be embarrassed. Zelda is one of my favorite series, I can appreciate what botw accomplished and the risks it took even if it’s not one of my favorit Zelda titles. Totk though, what risks did they take? It doesn’t add anything significant or do anything different. I hope they can move on now and learn from this mistake. Great job on the video too, I’ll definitely rewatch this one.

[@doriantermini]

These "open world" games are just excuses to make a huge world with a lot of the same stuff over and over. To make you waste hundreds of hours. These games will not respect you or your time. They sacrifice good game design and progression for being able to do everything from the start. That is not the point of an open world game. They also seem to they that Story is not important either. They scatter the Story around locations that are marked on your map that when entered explain to you what is happening. You know what a REAL Open World game is? The original Legend of Zelda. Go anywhere you want, however there are things you can't reach yet without a certain item or knowledge. Where is that item or knowledge? Find it, explore and have fun. Find hidden secrets around the world, tell your friends about your findings. That is what an Open World game should be. You shouldn't be given tips in the menu about your world. Those tips should be learned through dialogue or through events in the game. Another REAL Open World game is Outerwilds. However this one is more about Story. That game has no physical gates. The only gate is your knowledge. I wont say anything more because it is best played completely blind. The Story is masterfully woven into the gameplay, no cutscenes, no taking away control. I'm not saying that it's bad to have cutscenes, but if the only way you know how to tell a story in a video game is take away control from the player. Your story is going to feel less impactful. Tunic is a Linear game that feels like an Open World. By the time you get to the mid way point in the game, the world feels huge. There's so many things to do, find and solve. And yet, its world is tiny, Tunic manages to fit so much into such a small world. You could pass maybe 2 or 3 secrets in 6 seconds of walking around. The game feels like it's always evolving. It feels though you will never stop learning. In TOTK, everything in the game is taught to you at great sky island. It makes sense when you think about it, teach the player about all the major mechanics and then let them out into the whole world. But in practice, it just makes the rest of your game feel boring. You're never learning anything new, it's all the same. This game was a sequel too, if you've already played the first game (like me), the whole game feels like you just bought a $70 DLC. If TOTK is an Open World game, then it's a complete mess of an Open World game. It fails on it's story, gameplay and learning curve miserably. I'm not shitting on the game because I don't like Zelda, it's because I am passionate about Zelda. I want Nintendo to make something amazing. I want good games. So they should stop trying to make huge open worlds and instead go back to what they were good at. Beautifully crafted Linear experiences with fantastic powerful stories with a somewhat difficult but engaging learning curve. Whilst we wait for a good game, if you haven't already. Go play Outerwilds, The original Legend of Zelda and Tunic in that order. You will not regret it.

[@Erumore]

My feelings about the current state of open world games are broadly the same - they are deliberately designed to waste as much of your time as possible, and I'm pretty much done with the whole genre. As I said in the video, I agree with you that TOTK plays its entire hand in the first few hours, and the rest of the game after that is a repetitive chore. Outer Wilds is easily the most important game since Dark Souls, and if you're interested I have a video on my channel explaining why I think that is. My biggest hope is that it proves to be the start of a new genre, and that the next few years bring us more games in a similar vein. I wanted to like Tunic, and I enjoyed the 'discovery' aspect of it, but I found the combat and exploration a bit too dull and I didn't finish it. Thanks for the thoughtful comment, and I hope you enjoyed the video. Here's to waiting for a good game to come out.

[@barrymchawkenhugh2696]

Well said. Agreed mostly. Side thought: I love ascend. I use it all the time, like in the depths getting up the mushrooms then gliding over all the useless filler. Or if there's a tower that's just too high to use it on, I'll use a hoverstone then use it to ascend the rest, same with cliffs. I even use it on Talos and construct "bosses."

[@adrianmadsen5551]

Yea this is exactly how i feel. My main problem with this game is the lack of restriction. I wished totk would have combined botw with the older zelda games. Maybe next time

[@masonasaro2118]

oh but aonuma thinks people only like the old zeldas due to ✨NOSTALGIA✨. yeah, like people only liked the first 2 paper mario games (and super) because of ✨NOSTALGIA✨

[@QuintessentialWalrus]

Just chiming in to say that this video is really well written and you've earned yourself a new subscriber. I appreciate that your script wasn't overly long or repetitive despite being literally feature-length, nor was it hyperbolic or unfair. I loved BOTW and you summed up almost every criticism I have with TOTK really well without being vicious about it. Keep it up!

[@Erumore]

Thanks for the comment - it is much appreciated and I hope there's something else on my channel to interest you!

[@JellieBelle]

Please make more videos. This stuff is the peak of game analysis.

[@dudeman5303]

Dude i am ao happy to see someone finally saying that a longer runtime doesnt automatically mean its better - go to a movie theater and watch half of the movies they have playing and you'll find theyre 3 hours and youll be baffled by it because all of these movies would have better served themselves by cutting off an hour. And yet people tell themselves they like the movies more because theyre longer because they're convinced it just means theyre getting *more* of a great thing - it's ridiculous. A movie has to be INSANELY fucjing good for me to sit down and watch it for THREE hours, and it has to feel VERY necessary for me to actually tolerate it. Everything has to be extra long now with this cookie cutter bullshit and everyone is so weird about it, they'll like one tiny aesthetic within a kind of media and automatically think they have to form an attatchment to that media, and now you actually come out and point out the drawbacks of these kinds of lazy art and people act like you pissed on their grandmother's grave or something. I used to be a huge fan of so many bands and artists until they began remaking the same albums over and over, go look at metallica ever since they made death magnetic and you'll see they've been remaking old albums for over a decade now. Most srtists today hsvr one single sound they stole from someone else and thats what theur entire career sounds like - its INSANE. Music 30 years ago was not typically like that, and bands that did that shit were universally shit on for being so uncreative. Ultimately, liking one aspect of something does not suddenly mean it is a part of your fucking personality - we live in a capitalist society where every little thing has to be turned into a consumer good, this is the result of that. The industry surrounding art, what used to be manageable and somewhat self-respecting because enough of those artists respected the art they were making, has slowly and surely turned into just a formulated scheme to make money as consumerism has basically forced us all to *identify* with these products as if they are somehow a part of us. Doesnt mstter if corporations have ammassed so muvh power they dont need to compete so they make the same garbage over and over and they make the most lazy sequels and remakes over and over - cuz half of the human race apparently thinks they hsvr to stand by it and scream at anyone who had a single critique about it, all because these people are so damn afraid to have their own identity that they latch onto consumer goods and buy a bunch of shirts with pictures of that consumer good, and walk around as if saying "i wish i could live in hyrule" is their personality and they're gonna defend that franchise till the day they die. Its fucking insane. Nintendo doesnt give a flying fuck about zelda fans, its a massive corporation that makes a few people a whole lot of money, they're just pumping out what they believe will make them the most money. I hope enough people catch on to all of this so theres some sort of backlash toward media companies because its gotten so damn out of hand. I personally always held the zelda franchise up to high regard, i felt nintendo actually had respect for its past works, but after totk i am starting to doubt that. A lot of the things youve critiqued it for - those same critiqurs apply to botw and its strange to hear someone actuslky say all of this in one cohesive video because i felt all of this myself but i didnt even realixe i was kind of shutting it out of my mind. I didnt even realize i was giving them a pass on so many things, i overall do like a lot of aspects to the newer games but now i feel a bit insulted by Nintendo now that its all been laid out in such a concise way. None of this is to say ooen world games can't kick ass - they totally can, but bigger doesnt equate to better automatically. For me, as a kid i felt ocarina of time was already super open, it had a certain magic a lot of other games just can't capture despite being sctually true open world games, and i get very frustrated by the obvious mistakes nintendo rolls with that they should have been smart enough and authentic enough to avoid. It doesjt feel like they really csre about the respect a series like zelda has, they seem yotally willing to burn it all to the ground if they can mske a wuick fortune on iy. I mean shiy, now theyre making a zelda movie - eho even WANTS a zelda movie? This coukd yotally tank the entire series, the movie is most likely going to be ass, at best it'll maybe be a tiny biy better than a msrvel movie, but i guarantee you its just going to be a little bit of action mixed with people telking link that "the legendsry hero must save the world" over and over. (God the dialogue in he cutscenes for totk was insufferable. Did they really think it was necessary to have half of all the cutscenes be zelda constantly reminding us we were "the legendary hero" once every 2 seconds, did they really think that would be enough to motivate us for the 100 hour grind to keep farming stuff. Get fucking real nintendo)

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

I mean, I'd love a Zelda movie, but an animated one. Making it live-action is the worst decision they could've made :/

[@YOUTY209]

I assumed that it was like the first game, and that by leaving the initial island in the sky I had completed the tutorial and could now go anywhere. I spent the next 10+ hours doing random shrines and coming up with absurd work arounds (see below) for things, the entire time genuinely thinking "this is so stupid, why did they remove the glider for a sequel based on verticality." I assumed it was like the new powers, and that the constructed vehicles were meant to be the substitute. I rewound an ice block up a slope of spikes so I could jump off it and then damage boost the rest of the way up, when the real solution was "there's an updraft and you glide across"

[@ggdeku]

Two aspects you didnt mention but are also huge problems to me: 1) The game's flow is literally about farming several different microcurrencies. Like a gacha game. The depths are literally a mine for resources designed to watse your time. There is no meaningful gameplay. Its all a big hamster wheel to grind. 2) The entire weapon system is completely undermined by only having 3 weapon types. Any other differences are mostly irrelevant. On top of that 2 handed swords are an extremely bad and unfun weapon type, so really i only ended up trying to use 2 weapons. It makes the durability management gameplay flow feel very shallow.

[@18skeltor]

The depths were so exciting to me because I love the adventure of spelunking in a dark and gloomy cave system but in this case it was so disappointing... Exploring felt tedious and there were no puzzle aspects or really anything interesting once you spent 15 minutes finding basically everything there was to find

[@QuintessentialWalrus]

I'm also a big hater of how TOTK makes you farm for several different currencies lol. I love BOTW's simplicity and TOTK feels like an F2P mobile spin-off of that game at times.

[@Regigigas_YT]

At least you get these currencies without spending money. Listen, I, too, regret buying TOTK because I could just have gotten BOTW, and while yes, The time wasn't wasted because I was having LOTS of fun, I'm done with it, I've built crazy machines, killed Ganon 10 times, have gotten an unbreakable master sword. I've done everything. Even in other games I still feel like I have something else to do. Persona 5? Fill my compendium, get broken builds for my favorite Demons, max out Satanel. Metroid Dread? Complete it on Dread Mode, get every secret, do a flawless boss rush. Even then, these two give me things to do after I'm done: mastering the combat and the infinitely replayable "vs computer" modes (Velvet Room Battles and Boss rush respectively) I have never played BOTW, TOTK and even Horizon: Forbidden West after finishing them. Other "Open worlds" like Minecraft I play almost every time I have a rest bc the point of this one is to build, create and experiment. TOTK gives you at most %1 of Minecraft's freedom, and guess what? Minecraft can be modded natively for free in ANY platform that is open-source! As many have said, the games aren't bad, they're just not for me, sadly I had to spend around 150 dollars on them to find out. I am going to buy P3Reload for my PS4 soon, and ooh boy Am I gonna have fun.

[@Mangapan]

Great video, although I disagree with your take on the "temples" (which they are refered to as, but serve in absolute no ways as actual temples) they are very lackluster, too easy and are devoid of any soul that any previous Zelda temples had. Not counting the Divine Beasts, which I don't count as temples, the TotK "temples" are ranked on the very bottom of the list compared to other Zelda temples. I may be rating them this low due to how disappointed I was when I found out there were temples, only to get scammed

[@Erumore]

I agree that the temples are still largely disappointing, and nowhere near as interesting as ones from older games in the series. My point in the video is mostly just that they're better than the shrines, which are truly terrible. If development time was diverted from the shrines to the temples, I think there would be some potential there at least. Thanks for the comment and I'm glad you enjoyed the video!

[@Mangapan]

@@Erumore True, it would've been better if they had spend more time on developing bigger and more intricate temples and less time on the many shrines.

[@Jbswe]

The build ups to the wind and fire temple were amazing though I think going up to the wind temple was pretty peak Zelda tbh

[@charliez077]

@@Jbswe lead up to the wind temple is easily one of the best parts yeah, so is the whole part before Spirit Temple (imo that whole quest is by far the best part of ToTK). too bad these great parts are only like 10-15% of the game imo and the rest ranks from fine to legit boring/grindy/repetitive

[@xSilentZeroXx]

Hot take time: Divine Beasts > TOTK Temples. Not that either are very good, but while they both feature "touch all the nodes!" gameplay, Divine Beasts had the control mechanism of the Divine Beast to take into consideration as you navigated, which kept the classic Zelda feeling of the full dungeon feeling like a macro-puzzle unto itself. Just, in a different way. Something better suited to the game that BOTW was. (A game I really didn't like that much, just FYI. What can I say, TOTK got me running devil's advocate here.) Take out the control mechanism, and all you have are shrine puzzles glued to the same space... which is exactly what TOTK dungeons are. The Water Temple is the most obvious example of this. There's no continuity between the various puzzles. No greater elements to consider when navigating. It's just puzzles on platforms. My own list is Twilight Princess = Skyward Sword > Majora's Mask > Wind Waker > Ocarina of Time > BOTW > TOTK, as far as dungeon/puzzle quality goes. (No disrespect to Ocarina, just... its sequels *should* surpass it. And I think they did, at least until... you know.) Needless to say, the recent games are at the bottom of my list, too.

[@RadiaUmbra]

Honestly, I'm just not a fan of modern gaming as a whole, yes of course there's the broken messes and the microtransactions hell but, even when a game is actually complete, the weird obsession developers have nowadays with open world is one I'm not a fan of and it sadly applies to BOTW/TOTK. It's funny to me when people used to mock Ocarina Of Time as this "barren wasteland of an overworld with not much to do in it". But then they turn their backs and call games like BOTW and others similar to it undeniable masterpieces with no room for criticism. You look back on games like GTA 3 that let you free roam and basically do whatever you wanted but still had an interesting and cohesive world and start to wonder where did developers go wrong. The open world formula is too bloated for its own good.

[@MrFoxInc]

Another comment: I am so glad to hear you talking about scale, and how the game is too big. There is, of course, a kind of excitement with such a huge world that you _can_ explore and it's amazing that Iwata held true to the promise of "Everything you can see in this screenshot, you can actually walk to." But of course, it would be impossible to fill this massive world without modularity. You _have_ to use (variations of) bosses, enemies and scenarios again and again to fill this huge landfill. That is the solution to the problem. But of course, you wouldn't _have_ that problem if the world wasn't so big and unrestrained. So I'm all in favor of scaling down, too. Also, when you talked about bosses, I thought about what it would be like if the game was scaled down, to the point that you couldn't fit in every boss more than once. And honestly, I imagine that would be quite amazing! Lynels, Hinox, even Talos - encountering them once and having this unique and daunting challenge that you have to understand and figure out before you move on would make for memorable moments and feel like the achievements they're supposed to be. They wouldn't get trivialized at all, even if you revisit them on subsequent playthroughs! And I realize that this is basically the structure of prior Zelda-games and seems like a step backwards. But honestly? That might not be a bad thing. If I have to choose between this and "Garry's Mod + Climb anywhere + Go to your menu for half of the game + Fly over this intricate level design + Challenge yourself, or don't, I don't care"... I wouldn't mind taking a step or two back. Anyway, good video. A few things in it are somewhat subjective or up for debate and would create a different discussion, but overall, it was a good analysis that made me realize why some of the things in the game(s) started to bore me. Nice job!

[@bananabread6148]

I guess that my hoarding tendencies have paid off in this game, because my experience seems to have been different! I rarely use zonai devices in my inventory to cheese the puzzles in game, bc my stingy brain would rather just find something nearby to solve problems so I can save my items. For the campfires, you can use the hot keys to throw down your wood and flint, so you don't have to go through your inventory. Or throw a fire fruit at the wood. Also, you don't have to keep opening your inventory in gerudo desert if you always wear both clothing that protects from the cold and the heat.

[@rewskiem5700]

The problem with flurry rush is that the window for it is earlier than it feels like it should be. You would think that flurry rush is supposed to be a risk/reward choice where you try to dodge out of the way right as an attack would hit you. But you actually need to dodge right after the enemy STARTS their swing. This leads to there being practically no real risk if you know the correct timing, because if you dodge at almost the right time but miss the window for flurry rush, you're still going to dodge out of the way of the attack itself. So it ends up being practically no risk for huge reward. And then parrying is pretty much the opposite, with a way higher risk and next to no reward. If you parry too late, your shield is going to lose durability. If you parry too early, you're going get smacked in the face and take damage. So there's a decent risk when trying to execute a parry. But the reward for successfully parrying an enemy is stunning them for an extremely short amount of time, and MAYBE making them drop their weapon. This "reward" is made even worse when you realize that you can already stun enemies and make them drop their weapons by using electricity. Although, who needs any combat skills when you can just stock up on multi-shot lynel bows and spam headshots on every enemy using bullet-time?

[@Jdudec367]

Nah the window for it is just fine really. And it is that. Or right when it would hit you. No there is still a real risk, no...you may possibly get hit. No there is still risk for it. Not really, there is a good reward for it. If you parry too early you may not take damage and does parrying too late really use durability? Nah it's for long enough really and them dropping their weapon makes it even better. Not really as that does not work well against deflecting attacks especially beams which still deflects and negates potential damage done to you. That won't always work and is limited in use so combat skills is still needed.

[@kevintyrrell7409]

I love the inspiration taken from Joseph Anderson's famous review. The resemblance between your two review styles is unmistakable. Great job.

[@InfinityDz]

39:35 in the same vein, Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, and Wind Waker were maybe 50 hours long, but were much more satisfying to play. Don't give me any other 300 hour game with only 40 hours of relevant and non repetitive content.

[@Regigigas_YT]

I halfway feel like this in Persona games, like yeah, I get the 100 hour game, it's a JRPG, but LET ME SKIP CUTSCENES ON NEW GAME +!!! I GET IT ON THE 1ST TIME AROUND BUT ON THE 2ND?? ATLUS PLEASE

[@saxoman1]

You've gained a new subscription! And its not just because I 95% agree with your take (I do) but also this video is so well constructed/considered/narrated (it is). TOTK, while I liked it for what it is, is nonetheless one of the biggest *wasted potential* of a sequel I've ever personally encountered in gaming (almost up there with Nuts and Bolts/Mass Effect 3 IMPO) and is much lesser than BOTW for it (and the user score on Metacritic is already beginning to reflect that vs BOTW, and will continue to do so over time imo). I do hope Nintendo doesn't let the sales go their head and continue getting stale with my favorite series! But on a positive note, I've found your channel, and oh boy is it top quality! Thank you!

[@Erumore]

A waste of potential is exactly how I see the game as well. I have far more respect for BOTW because at least it took some risks and broke new ground. Always makes my day to get a comment like this, so thank you and stay tuned for more! Hopefully some of my older videos will also be of interest to you.

[@saxoman1]

@@Erumore thanks for the reply! I appreciate content creators interacting directly with fans! I realized today I previously watched and liked your Elden Ring video, so clearly there's a pattern here that we share haha! I'll say that I liked Elden Ring more than TOTK, but that BOTW tops them both in terms of my personal experience!

[@ash8244]

If you think this game is stale, that just tells me you have shit taste in video games But don't worry like what you think about this game, I'm sure you parents see you just as much a dissapointment, and "lacking just like this game is" Fuckin idiot

[@chuck_muckle]

im so glad that criticism can finally be levied towards this game. i almost 100% agree with your takes, however a lot of my gripes also lie with the story, as im a big zelda lore guy. this game effectively killed every zelda theory channel, as it became clear that nintendo doesnt care about or respect that side of the fandom or even itself. just the differences lore wise between botw and totk are baffling and atrocious, and im glad that we can finally talk about things like this without being lambasted. i know this is 3 months late, but im really glad ive discovered this video. i hope nintendo will do better, but i dont think they have aby monetary desire to. great video man.

[@Ace22]

There's 3 main reasons I didn't like this game. 1 bland combat. 2 the dungeons were not good. 3 The bosses were not that great either. If nintendo fixes all this I could see the 10/10s. But what I'm seeing now is people ignoring core flawed elements to this series that are arising and it's sad. The consumer shouldn't get a worse version of the product they used to. And in many ways this is. Your buildings can't change the flaws!

[@Jdudec367]

1. thecombat is good though. 2. They weren't that bad though. 3. Nahthe bosses were pretty great. They aren't ignoring core flawed elements. This isn't a worse version though. But it' not quite that flawed.

[@froggycolouring]

I think a main difference between past zelda games and totk/botw is passion. For example majoras mask (one of the best zelda games imo) was on a really short time limit so the devs didn’t have time to revise ideas or decide something wouldn’t be in the game, resulting in the devs full creative power being put into the game which turned out well, compared to totk where the devs had lots of time (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing) and many ideas got thrown out and edited, and they were under much pressure for the game to live up to botw which resulted in them copying botw formula to achieve this. another game, link’s awakening, was originally just a side project but ended up becoming an actual zelda game and you can see that, there are many mario enemies instead of traditional zelda enemies, and you can see the passion in the game. Now look at totk, everything is clean, polished, and nothing seems like anything anybody super passionate about zelda would make. My point is NOT that devs should be under pressure, but rather devs should be able to have more freedom so they can achieve full creative potential. Theres no point in trying to “redefine what zelda is” because zelda is already good, they should be focused on trying to make a good game, not a game that will sell well, but a game that is good.

[@midnightsocean2689]

I agree about potential. That and too many options/inventory items can take away from the experience. I don't think it's an issue of being too big, more an issue of being too easy. Large spaces of little interest is fine if you balance it with challenge and reward scattered about. In the first game, I wouldn't have minded the barren wastes of the northwest or the massive emptiness of the southern desert, IF there had been more reward for traversing them. As far as difficulty goes, I remember one of the most exciting and satisfying moments in the first game was when I discovered a magic island in the north east sea. The moment you land, you loose ALL of your items, including weapons and clothes. That island lacked both traps for enemies to hold your hand and the sterile atmosphere of being locked in a challenge room box. There were plenty of places to hide, so many game play tactics were plausible. Really made you feel like a badazz for beating that island and all without breaking immersion by taking out of the overworld. It turned out to be one of the best areas in the game. Something I was sad to find was quite rare. A prominent problem with these games in general is, the producers don't want games they themselves can't easily figure out/beat. This "toddler's game" syndrome plagues so many IPs these days. When simply taking away all the hand holding, would instantly make the games more memorable. The crybabies and placating producers/executives are really what bring game design down. I don't even see a point in playing tears of the kingdom. The first game already tried my patients with nerfed aspects that made me loose interest. Every time the game expected me to trigger quick time events ages before the enemy was to land a hit, I rolled my eyes. Why even have a quick time event to dodge/parry if it feels designed for a 4 year old.

[@makingthestorybetter]

It would be far more rewarding if there were only 20 shrines but each one was unique and far more clever.

[@LegitMLG360noscoper]

I really appreciate your viewpoint on how limitations could make the game so much better in many aspects. You mention that when the game gives you an easy way to cheese a puzzle, or a simple way to fight instead of making a big fun machine, that it makes you not want to do the slower or more complex option. I am a player who will always go out of his way to do things in the 'intended' way even though it is often undermined by infinitely easier solutions, just because the reward of playing the game in that manner is a much greater amount of fun. I basically intentionally gimp myself in order to enjoy the game to its fullest. And while I am able to do that and love the game, I appreciate that the majority of players just dont want to have to do that. Also flurry rushing is consistent...

[@Touma134]

I will defend elden ring a bit. There is an inherent drawback to big open worlds as well as an inherent advantage of grandeur. Elden Ring I think strikes that balance much better. More importantly there is much more interesting and frequent things in Elden Ring. The filler isn't the issue, it's what's In-between the filler. Hypothetically if I got botw but with actual interesting side quests and actual proper more than 4 temples with unique visuals and music I'd be more than happy. But for the most part there isn't. There is no discovery just the illusion of that little tickle in your brain telling you there is something interesting over there. Also Elden Rings filler stuff is twice as good and has more proper ideas fleshed out. Found someone who hates open worlds more than me. Seems you hate the concept and the idea of recycled assets at all.

[@nicovarga7319]

This is the best critique of the game so far

[@StuCheeks]

Good video! TOTK is both very satisfying and extremely disappointing as a sequel to BOTW. There isn't much I can say that hasn't already been said, but I'll at least mention this: why the hell is the tutorial area the largest sky island? For the sky having so much gameplay content, it feels strikingly empty. Same for the depths. There should have been villages and other meaningful areas in both sections of the map. Instead, both the sky and the depths are each ultimately just checklist areas for filling your inventory.

[@supermechashadowlord]

Oracle of Seasons managed to give us a big and complex underworld, filled with interesting content (Subrosians FTW). And you could change seasons in certain areas. Oracle of Ages gives you the power to travel through time. Both games were made for the Game Boy Color in early 2000s. Let that sink in.

[@raigsv]

Negative TOTK reviews are like ASMR to me, and this one is my favorite. I don’t like to bask in negativity, but it feels so good to have my sentiments echoed so closely, especially in contrast to the effusive positivity being initially expressed by seemingly everyone, while I felt like a broken curmudgeon for not enjoying myself. It’s possible to love Zelda as a franchise, while also accepting that its always had its ups and downs. This game is a slap in the face imo. Expecting better is the only way to make it happen, otherwise it’s a slippery slope to Pokémon Scarlet/Violet from here

[@blackchickiedee7]

Yeah when I expressed my disappointment for the game I feel like I'm some kind of villain. I don't know what it is but it seems like when you don't enjoy what everyone is praising you get ostracized. Well, honestly that's not anything new but social media can definitely make you feel little by having a difference of opinion. I feel like most negative reviews are well thought out constructive criticism, but then here comes the "WELL I ENJOYED IT, YOU'RE JUST MAD BECAUSE IT'S NOT OCARINA OF TIME 2.0!!" I'm not even sure if I want the next Zelda installment if it's just going to be an open world mess of tedious chore work

[@scubasteve2189]

Well said. BOTW is literally my favorite game of all time. No one was looking forward to the sequel more than me, though I already had my reservations about reusing the map, etc. After about 10 hours, maybe even less, I was already getting a sinking feeling, and it didn’t get any better. When I expressed my opinions, everyone acted like I was crazy, but I knew eventually the shine would wear off and people would start to see it. Besides, you really can’t underestimate the sunk cost mentality. When people just paid $70 for a game, they will do ANYTHING to defend it. After all, if the game turns out to be bad, then they feel embarrassed that they spent so much on it. But the longer they get away from the purchase, the more the reality can creep in. 🤷🏻‍♂️