Tech Tip: Can a Muzzle Device be too Tight?

Join Caleb from Brownells and Mike from Sons of Liberty Gunworks as they delve into an important aspect of firearm maintenance: the potential risks of overtorquing a muzzle device. This informative video is a must-watch for firearm enthusiasts and professionals alike, offering valuable insights into the proper handling and care of firearms.
Key Highlights:
Understanding Overtorquing: Learn about the consequences of applying too much torque to a muzzle device and how it can affect your firearm's accuracy.
Theoretical Insights: Mike explains the theory behind bore diameter consistency and its critical role in maintaining accuracy.
Practical Demonstration: Witness a live demonstration using a 5.56 barrel and a muzzle device to illustrate the effects of overtorquing.
Torque Specifications: Discover why it's essential not to exceed 30 foot-pounds of torque and the differences in manufacturers' recommendations.
Real-World Application: Understand the common frustrations and mistakes made when timing muzzle devices like suppressor hosts or muzzle brakes, especially when dealing with shim combinations.
Consequences of Excessive Torque: See firsthand the constriction of the bore when a muzzle device is overtorqued and learn about its impact on bullet trajectory and firearm performance.
Advice and Tips:
-Caleb and Mike emphasize the importance of patience and precision when working with muzzle devices.
-They advise against using excessive force and recommend taking breaks if the process becomes frustrating.
-Viewers are encouraged to share their experiences and questions in the comments section, especially if they have encountered similar issues.
For further assistance, the audience is invited to reach out to Brownells or Sons of Liberty Gunworks directly.
-This video is not just about the technical aspects of muzzle devices but also about promoting responsible and informed firearm handling. Whether you're a seasoned gunsmith or a hobbyist, this guide provides essential knowledge to ensure your firearm's longevity and performance.
-Remember to like, comment, and subscribe for more insightful content from Brownells, and don't forget to hit the notification bell to stay updated on future videos.
Thank you for watching, and we'll see you in the next one!
For the products shown here and many more, head on over to the Brownells website! Unfortunately the policies of this media platform prevents us from posting product links.
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[@SOCMMOB]

I’ve heard a LOT of gun counter “science” over the years, especially here on YT. But to actually demonstrate it live was very helpful. I’ve honestly never thought of this.

[@EricFialkowski]

Adding “I must have over torqued the muzzle device” to my bag of excuses…err…reasons why I suck at shooting. 😂

[@robpetry84]

Me: pulls up pants, stares at shitty group. "Yeap, over torqued muzzle device. Classic."

[@BT1776]

I learned something new and thank you for not only explaining it but also included a demonstration with the barrel at Brownell's expense.

[@trailertrashtactics]

I over torqued my surefire device to try get it straightened out. And I had been scratching my head for a month on how my sub moa geisele started shooting 5 inch groups. I’m hoping if I re install it will help. Update: back to shooting 5 shot groups in the same hole at 25 yards! Thank you Caleb!

[@ethan5.56]

Ordered some crush washers online to swap a muzzle device out on one of my rifles. Started putting the torque to it and instantly realized the crush washer was not going to work. The amount of force it would have taken to crush the washer was way beyond 30 foot pounds. Had to get new crush washers from a well respected manufacturer. Won't be buying off eBay again 😂 Great video as always

[@vicdiaz5180]

Crush washers are so cheap, you might as well buy the name brand washers

[@omarmendez4003]

I use eBay for Glock parts only

[@omarmendez4003]

I think I put my flash hider on at 45-50ft lb on a 7.5” 556 barrel,, I can’t get my scope zeroed in perfect, idk if it’s my scope or the flash hider

[@ethan5.56]

@@omarmendez4003 wouldn't hurt to re torque your muzzle device. Could be a number of variables but that's a good place to start

[@magnusskipton7067]

@@omarmendez4003could be the short barrel length causing problems aswell, there’s an insane amount of muzzle blast from unburnt powder and I’d bet it’s possible that it could be destabilizing the projectile. It’s a possibility anyway, the barrel restriction can also be an issue, same with the optic, or the manufacturer of the barrel could have done a poor job. That short of barrel gives you the muzzle energy of a 22 magnum anyway, so I’d recommend swapping out for a 10 inch barrel minimum. (2100 fps with a 7.5, 2600 with a 10, 2900 with a 16, and 3100 with a 20 inch barrel, for a velocity reference chart, with the same ammo)

[@randyfrantz7195]

Now I have to get some rifles out of the safe and check my muzzle devices for torque. Just when I felt comfortable sitting here watching Caleb on youtube. Should have kept scrolling to a cooking show.....

[@magnusskipton7067]

It appears that when you loosen the over tightened muzzle device, the problem goes away? So if i had a barrel with this problem i could fix it by loosing it and using the correct torque?

[@agalv9017]

The real expert here is Caleb’s barber

[@AdamJohnson-dr2ri]

More technical vids with SOLGW! Great stuff, thanks guys

[@davidwelden8470]

That’s actually really interesting. I honestly wouldn’t have ever guessed it could actually constrict the bore, let alone to such a degree.

[@Garuda1415]

I am about to install a device. This video answered the one question I had.

[@cherokeesome]

I followed Wilson Combat instructions and installed the crush washer in my vice, compressed it a little at a time until my comp was timed perfect with the proper Tourque

[@larrythompson5617]

Thank you. A question that I have been waiting to be answered. I asked Savage what ft. lbs. I should tourque to and they said they could not supply me with that info as their company was not a recognized gunsmith. I don't get it as their whole company revolves around gunsmithing.

[@GatGans1932]

I actually experienced this when I changed a muzzle device a few years back. It actually canted the device into the bullet path. I was getting strikes on the device. I learned a valuable lesson.

[@derek3154]

Maybe try the Precision armament Accu-Washer® Muzzle Device Alignment System for timing a muzzle device.

[@jacobspurgeon2110]

I think you demonstrated when loosening the muzzle and the pin fell out that it wasn’t permanent but just to confirm, if you over torque your muzzle device and then take it off has it caused permanent bore restriction?

[@aaronunterseher1627]

I think that would depend on barrel material and the process of manufacturing

[@nathancunningham8717]

Good video. Learn something new everyday but 25-30ftlbs is what I've always used for torque specs. JP Double crush washers is the way to go unless something long is being used for a muzzle device.

[@don_sharon]

Sat here thinking, no way is over-torquing the MD going to constrict a steel barrel. Thanks for the demonstration, professor.

[@ethan5.56]

I just got a dead air xeno A1 flash hider that doesn't require timing but I have some precision armament shims that are nice and supposed to make the shim job easier. I won't be using them on this muzzle device but might try a forward control designs xeno muzzle brake on another rifle. Great video as always

[@Michael-Purcell]

By using light sandpaper, you can lightly knock off a few thousandths of an inch at a time of the flat side of the crush washer until you reach the final quarter turn at hand tight. Then tighten to zero with a wrench. This will prevent damage anywhere along the barrel. This is how I do it and how I will always do it.

[@blueeyeddevil1]

Exactly. I do this as well. Glue the sandpaper to a flat block of wood and rub the washer in a circular motion until it is about the thickness you need to get the timing close to spot-on. From there, install it and the muzzle device using a torque wrench until the latter is properly timed. If you use Rocksett, you can even go somewhat below 30 ft-lb and be absolutely fine.

[@Michael-Purcell]

@blueeyeddevil1 I place a sheet of sandpaper on a countertop and sand lightly in a circular motion. Doesn't take much at all to get where things need to be. Also, minor torque is only needed up to the 30 flbs maximum allowed to prevent damage. But even 30 flbs to me is way too much. The crush washer creates the needed torque. Just time it with a quarter turn to zero, because always remember that as the barrel is heated, expansion creates added torque. Down the road, you may want to easily room the device for whatever the reason. So, a 30 flbs plus heat expansion could make it very difficult. Just let the crush washer do its job.

[@blueeyeddevil1]

@@Michael-Purcell Yep, that's pretty much everything I said.

[@kassilewis5511]

I just screw on the muzzle device up to the shoulder, back it off until it is perfectly timed, measure the gap with feeler gauges then make a shim on the lathe(4140 or 416) .001" over my measurement over the feelers that has the same o.d. as the barrel shoulder and I.d. .001 over the major of my threads. I then lightly lap the parted side of the shim until it times about 1130 hand tight, then torque to 12 never had one loosen.

[@tsafa]

Excellent demonstration

[@michaelkennedy996]

I have done exactly that before, I’m the exact scenario you described. Thank you for this info.

[@bsku8568]

I believe I've done the same. My POI shifted 8" right and would not group. How was your barrel afterwards?

[@vandelayindustries6128]

@bsku8568 Did you ever fix it? Was the barrel toast?

[@michaelkennedy996]

@ no, I had my local guru remove the old device and install a new one. He timed it by milling it down instead of using shims so it was torqued to spec and timed. Seems to be fine but honestly I’m not a good enough shooter to give you real data on it. I know I over torqued it improperly trying to time it. Total rookie mistake

[@OOOOOO12345]

Priceless gold tip. Thank you.

[@johngee1723]

I was amazed he did that without a barrel nut in place. Good advertising for the receiver rods.

[@EndTheNFApls]

Well now I know why my 14.5 Pin and weld at home BCM shoots 3 MOA.

[@MichaelLeopold1]

Need more Mike as a walk on supporting character !

[@imjustadude]

And it is so true. I had a gun shooting sub MOA, took brake off for a suppressor, put brake back on and the thing could barely hold 3 MOA. Brake was too tight

[@bsku8568]

I believe I've done the same. My POI shifted 8" right and would not group. How was your barrel afterwards?

[@imjustadude]

@@bsku8568 worked great after I figured out what was wrong and 100+ round later :)

[@ETHRON1]

Personally I've never had to use shims on a AR...I have used them on a bolt-action... As a rule of thumb I go hand tight and a 1/4 to 1/3 turn past...always has worked.

[@BarnDoor-won5ve]

That really does seem to work for most causes when tightening, doesnt it? Hand tight and then some, that's what I was always taught

[@ShaneTheGeek]

Good stuff thanks Brownells!

[@cobaltballistics4742]

Fantastic demonstration!

[@snicklefritz4209]

I had a at built for me at a gun store that put the flash hider on so tight they had to Use a torch to get it off, and the barrel as well

[@jpjones877]

Hey Mike thanks for visiting !

[@ccrx2640]

What was the torque you achieved in 2 over tightening scenarios.?

[@leonda4817]

I just stoned the crashwasher to get me almost there (which was very easy), then screwed it on with a short wrench

[@gemo9561]

30ft•lbs with thread lock or no thread lock?

[@rafalpedros7360]

Thanks much. Very helpful. I was gonna replace my muzzle device.

[@CrawldaBeast]

30ftlbs sounds like a good number. I wonder if the folks at Ruger know that? Got a new rifle that I wanted to swap the break first thing. I gave up at 150ftlbs (because the bench and vise were having issues) and sent the rifle back to Ruger to have it removed. I ended up replacing the barrel (even though it shot well) because I felt it was compromised. Great video guys.

[@BarnDoor-won5ve]

That's like..... a lot😂. They must've uses some type of bonding adhesive like rock set or loctite, but I would think that'd be a weird thing for a mass manufacturer to do not knowing what every customer plans to do with their muzzle device. Crazy.

[@CrawldaBeast]

@BarnDoor-won5ve I couldn't believe it myself. There was no thread lock on the threads. I took it to a smith as well. He said he's never seen anything like it. Several reviews indicated that the factory break lead to accuracy issues. I just wanted to swap it to a linear break.

[@boss350z5]

Yes it can... I literally sheared the threads on an AR barrell the 1st time I changed a muzzle device trying to get it it timed right... the threads literally fell to the ground still threaded in the muzzle device and the barrel was ruined...

[@ratagris21]

You can precrush the crush washer to get it to time it correctly or to remove it as well.

[@boss350z5]

@@ratagris21 Yeah, this was over 10yrs ago. I was so pissed... luckily it was an 18" barrel, so I had it cut down to 16" and rethreaded; but that barrel has always been 2moa at best and with 55grain target its 3-4 MOA... my fault though, lesson learned.

[@loneczgunner6562]

I have seen 40 ft pounds affect accuracy in a short 300 blackout. Was just enough with 220gr to cause more wobble in the bullet and ruin the accuracy.

[@tinncan]

I would not have guessed it would cause deformation... That's interesting.

[@powdermonkey5183]

I don't have a barrel wrench and or a torque wrench. Im putting a muzzle device on tomorrow, how do I know i'm not putting too much foot lbs on it? Can anyone give me an idea of what it would feel like at about 30 pounds? Like snugging up a tire lug nut? like the force of turning a vehicle standing still without power steering?

[@SkunkApe22]

Let’s say I already put a muzzle device on my gun and had difficulty timing it for a suppressor host. I got it timed, but had to use several shims and torque it down pretty good. I did not use a torque wrench. How do I know if I overtorqued it? If it is overtorqued is this an issue that can be corrected? Do I need to get a whole new barrel? Any input would be great! Thanks!

[@jefflemaster2850]

If it’s over torqued you will have accuracy issues and possibly baffle strikes. You should use an alignment rod when installing the md and can as a first test to make sure they align. Try shooting it without the can to see if your getting wild groups. Especially if you have previous dope on the barrel. If your seeing possible signs then I would replace the barrel.

[@SkunkApe22]

@@jefflemaster2850 used a suppressor alignment rod and not seeing any misalignment. Lines up very well with the suppressor. Is there any other room for concern if that’s the case?

[@SkunkApe22]

@@jefflemaster2850 specifically I used a Geissele suppressor alignment rod

[@jefflemaster2850]

@@SkunkApe22 I would shoot it first without the suppressor installed and check for any accuracy issues. If it’s shooting decent groups you should be fine to go ahead and shoot suppressed. The Geissele rods are great. I usually just shim the MD until it is about at the 2 o’clock (hand tightened) then wrench it into the 12 o’clock. I’ve never had a problem with it that way.

[@vandelayindustries6128]

Did you end up shooting it? How were the groups? Was the barrel ruined?

[@CoryHobbs2178]

Wow I've heard it can cause a problem but that was pretty definitive

[@vincentmcglynn1823]

Okay so…… I probably fall into the “Very Frustrated” group when timing a muzzle device… but I know that different companies have varying torque specs on this…. So my question is… what is the Magical Torque Number that cause the bore to become constricted and have an adverse impact on the accuracy of the barrel???? Is it going to show at 40-50 Lb/Ft??? Cause I heard somewhere that over 50 was the absolute no-go zone???🤔🤔 any legit feedback would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!🫡🦅🇺🇸💯

[@jerryw691]

Good to know...Thanks

[@DonnaSeward-m7l]

Ive always just went until the crush washer engages, then clock the muzzle device to the proper 12 ...just for this reason 🤷🏾‍♂️ worked so far

[@FrankC757]

I'm not sure if it's called a Lock-nut or Jam nut .... My Question; What are the pro's and con's of using a jam nut instead of a crush washer.

[@nathandively8524]

If someone overtightened their muzzle device, can you just back it out and reinstall with a better procedure or shims? Is the barrel ruined?

[@PlataniumRacer]

My A2 on my 9mm is already timed 'perfectly' when I hand thread it against the crush washer. Is it safe to do one full rotation to properly time it?

[@alfredjr2k556]

This muzzle device procedure is important.

[@robotbuster1487]

The adding of a muzzle device is the last step in a new AR upper project. I shoot the rifle a time or two, sight in optics, ammo choices, with just a thread protector bushing, only. Add a device, and shoot and compare findings. I prefer shims over crush washers, when device internal thread depth and barrel thread length are ideal for shims. I try to minimize the "dead zone" inside a muzzle break or flash hider. Its that zone where the tip of the barrel ends, and the area of unused muzzle device threads. Crush washers often enlarge dead zone.

[@practicalplinking6133]

Shims are perfect, after ya figure out the device travel/tpi factor !!

[@Crangaso]

This is why I prefer a timing nut over crush washers, even then don't over torque or you'll strip the threads. #TakeYourTime #DoItRight

[@robertjackson1407]

Thank you 😊

[@reloadrefine]

🌟Question, do you feel it could have damaged the barrel by compressing it?

[@GruntBurger]

I think if it's fired in that configuration it's certainly going to wear faster. It's creating a forcing cone with increased friction and pressure.

[@DirtyK1911]

How do you time an A2 Birdcage with a crush washer, without over torque?

[@rifleshooterchannel208]

You want to use YHM crush washers. They start crushing with about 20 ft/lb of torque and they *stay* at 20 ft/lb for almost 2 full rotations once the “crush” has started. Shims are a better option though, you can get a pack for $6-$7

[@DirtyK1911]

@ thanks. OCD is not a good trait to have when building things

[@rifleshooterchannel208]

@@DirtyK1911 I know exactly what you mean 😂

[@Artie760]

Could you make a video showing us how to remove a crush washer that gets stuck on the muzzle threads?

[@wtchr6883]

Carefully with a Dremel cutoff wheel.

[@lawrencewu3356]

What is the acceptable level of tolerance. I get it 30 ft lbs is where it should max out what’s the min amount of torque though? It was either you guys or someone else that said rock set and lock tite and other stuff makes your torque a little wonky

[@IwatchFilm]

Not wonky, but any type of lube on the threads allows you to reach torque faster than a dry situation. If using lube you could potentially drop the needed torque by 10-30 percent. I'm not gonna say exactly how much because it depends on too many variables (size, material, lube, etc.), but as a rule, it will reduce torque required.

[@lostagain2992]

I’ve never torqued. Only timed. That said the 5 AR type weapons I’ve assembled have all been dead on sighting in. Guess I’ve been lucky and not a gorilla😉👍

[@ifc3893]

Crush washer, cone forward or backward?

[@hollyprice1671]

If you already over torqued it can it ruin the barrel? Or does it go back if you loosen it?

[@Joshy1313]

Anyone recommend a good torque wrench?

[@davidnovakovich5583]

1st: Who’d have thunk? 2nd: it’s probably OK for me to cinch it up pretty tight with my short handled wrench.

[@walker614jw]

Ok, what about crush washers vs shims?

[@9mmthroatpunch211]

Need to have mike on more man is a wealth of knowledge

[@plane_brain]

Can/should you use Loctite?

[@EclipseEntertainmentPresents]

Quick question does my 3p eliminator need to be timed at 6 o clock or is that just preferred I have it at 5?

[@davidv.2050]

I just installed an eliminator and the instructions indicated the blind hole should be at 6 o’clock. I had a difficult time crushing the provided washer to get to BDC. Torquing a crush washer is different than torquing MD using shims.

[@foxsquirrel3038]

Caleb REALLy wanted to pick that punch up off the floor. His OCD was off the charts

[@PikeyScott]

So...asking for a friend: Let's say he did this to time a suppressor mount, but hasn't fired the rifle yet. Can he back it off, do it correctly, and whistle past the graveyard? Or is the muzzle pretty well borked?

[@Bulldog75stp]

Not a gun smith by any means, but I'd say he could back it off and be fine. According to their demo, they loosened the muzzle device and the punch fell out. So I'd assume there would be some spring back.

[@mrshort2379]

Somebody needs to explain that to Sig Sauer I have heard that on the Sig MCX Spear, and the Spear LT. that their muzzled devices, are next to impossible to remove. most consumers that want a different muzzle device, have to send it back to Sig to have it removed.

[@ghijkl]

Does this happen if you do not use a crush washer? Both videos I’ve seen of this use a washer

[@richardhull7021]

Great information.

[@LynnJynh9315]

Wish I'd have known this before I wasted 100 rounds of 308. Did I cause any permanent damage?

[@Pro-Gunn1952]

When you are over tightening, can you also twist the barrel, making it not a straight through bore? Great content!

[@colbyc.6698]

What would be the minimum amount oftourque

[@rhinevalleygarage]

I was torquing down my muzzle device on my mossberg mvp and I went a little over 30 ft lbs and the barrell turned in the action, is this bad? Everything is still tight but where I had iron sights the holes are now off.

[@brownells]

Yes, your headspace most likely changed as well. We recommend getting that fixed.

[@johnsathe2429]

"But I can can still get it in there"... Funny. Great info.

[@Mrgunsngear]

🇺🇸

[@rohnek2]

what if i dont have a torque wrench adaptor for the muzzle device, can you just go tight on the muzzle device but not overdo it and it will be okay?

[@TheSugarWeasel93]

For sure

[@ragnarragnarsson3128]

Where do you get the torque wrench/adapter?

[@jameshill5304]

The muzzle device wrench from forward control designs

[@Russianmafia10]

FN scars are notorious for over torquing. It will shoot way better if you keep remove it and reinstall the muzzle device

[@jnjr45]

What wrench are you using to install the muzzle Device?

[@travis-coltgray9536]

Wellll….. I have to go back and redo some muzzle devices.

[@tomschumacher5434]

This is very cool, for science 👌

[@mrsickwick]

Really good info guys, had no idea about this.

[@DwarSel]

I've been trying to avoid over torquing my flash hider by filing small amounts of the crush washer away.

[@OOOOOO12345]

Interesting. Does it work?

[@ETHRON1]

The "crush washer" is not to be crushed...its merely a name...😄

[@rarebear1166]

On the other hand...if you have a barrel that does not shoot very well, as an experiment torque that muzzle device some more and see if it shoots better.

[@fredsalter1915]

Should Lok-Tite be used???

[@barakjohnson9931]

lol thats what i want to know

[@wabashoutdoors9540]

No, never use lok-tite on a flash hider or any muzzle device.

[@tlc239]

Do you recommend using any rocksett or anything on the muzzle device?

[@undeadbrosm41a39]

Thats a cool demonstration

[@Jgiamportone023]

What about wet torque vs dry torque

[@IwatchFilm]

Any type of lube on the threads allows you to reach torque faster than a dry situation. If using lube you could potentially drop the needed torque by 10-30 percent. I'm not gonna say exactly how much because it depends on too many variables (size, material, lube, etc.), but as a rule, it will reduce torque required. Using lube can easily cause an over torqued situation.

[@Jgiamportone023]

@@IwatchFilmthanks Huxwrx called for 40ft pounds so i did 25ft pounds with oil on threads. Suppressor is left and threaded so im not worried about it combing off with suppressor. It’ll just make muzzle device tighter if it gets stuck.

[@longrifle2955]

does it really damages the barrel when you insert a punch into it? i mean, a fired bullet exerts a much more violent force to it

[@jameshill5304]

A steel punch vs what’s a projectile made of? Lead or lead core with a copper coating which is a much softer material.

[@marzcapone9939]

The steel punch is harder than the copper jacket, so it could, depends on how tight.

[@toddparsons2980]

Good to know.

[@danielhess39]

Thanks for the great tech tip!!

[@alanniederlitz8630]

Great advice! Thanks!

[@itsapittie]

Useful information, as usual.

[@thatguyjohnny8235]

Does it cause permanent damage?

[@alexanderchung6402]

I’m rethinking my whole life right now 😅

[@ayushchoubey635]

Thanks for this info folks