TEKKEN And Its Unnecessary Difficulty

[@Kuolonkorina]

45 characters to 25 characters, TMM is the Thanos of Tekken. "Balanced.. as all things should be."

[@joejo6969]

I want to give a like but it already have the right number, the balanced number of likes

[@peytonolson9195]

"Im not feeling so good, Harada"

[@Shomus]

oh shit u are right

[@ElongatedVowels]

@Jayson Mcteer wtf is this spam operation

[@skoulikantera]

Mainman: the only streamer who can turn a competitive game into a philosophy class so that we all can question our existence

[@user-ns3nj1jr8h]

Stelios Nitsakis Why are we still here just to suffer

[@itzcomedyss4086]

Yeah he's a genuis

[@CupOfWhiskey]

You forgot about Daigo lol...

[@djw_tekken8490]

Exactly what i thought he is the ONLY FREAKIN GUY WHO CAN DO THAT LMAO LIFE MAKES NO SENSE DATTEBAYO

[@djw_tekken8490]

​@@itzcomedyss4086yess he is sooo crazy into this

[@LINKchris87]

I don't think removing characters and making the game smaller would be the right choice. But adding a COMPLETE tutorial which teaches you the fundamentals, the main strings for each char, the properties of rhe moves, the movement, the frames, the punishing, etc etc, would no doubt attract new people. Don't have your fans needing to visit external webs to try learning your game.

[@lewisdayrit4173]

haha im a new player in t8 and they have all of this 😀

[@spartanghost9713]

​@@lewisdayrit4173 💯💯💯💯

[@IAMOP]

Also keep in mind that KBD was not an actual intended mechanic of the game. It's like one of those cheats we used to have in old school games that players found.

[@alikhavari4250]

Yes exactly. Same as combos in street fighter 2. But capcom embraced that exploit and mainstreamed it making it a part of the game.

[@zachsundberg4561]

Yup. An exploit that has become a feature. The fast backward input should be b,b,B just like the fast forward input.

[@zakillah9702]

Wavedash, too.

[@HawkOfGP]

That was true once upon a time when it was first discovered, but today KBD is obviously a technique that has been intentionally left untouched in the game and therefore now exists as a core mechanic. If they wanted it to not exist, they could easily patch it out by changing the way movement works.

[@zachsundberg4561]

@@HawkOfGP "it's not a glitch it's a feature". True, but it's also a twinkie.

[@TheProHarvey]

I agree with you on the korean backdash thing, we don't want tekken to be an elitist game for hardcore players only. We want it to be accessible to people of all ages.

[@CephlonMayngrum]

it is accessible to all ages, but there are levels to this shit and the levels were created by the players not developers.

[@hessiankyojin]

They should increase the initial backdash range, IMO

[@otakufengmin1582]

Sadly no matter what its alwyas going to be an elitist game. Im beginning the game and im having less fun playing because of how difficult itnis for no reason just because

[@pash1898]

We have 45 characters with about 100 moves each on average and yet Harada refuses to put frame data in the game to give beginners an easier time Let that sink in for a second

[@pash1898]

@@RomanceDawn17 what if they want to improve at the game and not just play the game casually, it'd be much easier to show the frames of a move at the game, everyone would benefit from this really even players who have played for a long time, it can make it both easier for a beginner to learn the game and good players to pick up new characters

[@2000Doriyas]

It’s stupid, but he genuinely believes having that information would overwhelm new players and make the game less fun

[@sermedjaber]

that's one of the main reasons why i stopped playing tekken

[@superdupeninja8149]

What’s frame data?

[@ManyFacedGodTV]

Eli Nascimento Tekken and most games run on 60 frames per second. There are moves in the game that put a character at a positive frame advantage or negative one. Pros use this information to stay away from certain moves as they can be punished for being in negative frames.

[@krishbhalla4789]

I enjoy learning the infinite knowledge and mastering the hard execution in this game tbh, this is exactly what makes this game my absolute favourite game of all time. We are ALWAYS learning in this game, EVERY single opponent we face is different, EVERY single character could be played in MANY different ways. And this game is like taking my brain to the gym, it legit feels amazing to make a hard read and to punish with your execution skills.

[@disruptor6550]

Hey where is your T2 Kazuya profile pic? Put it back!

[@gideonturner8716]

Exactly. Couldn't agree more.

[@JRoyal504]

Krish Bhalla honestly!!! I really hate the arcade styles of MK & SF and every other fighting game that people just spam the same easy moves

[@jonknipe8697]

I keep hearing him referring to when harrada said it’s hard to get new players into the game but I think it’s doing well in tournaments because of what you just described. Seeing highly skilled players execute big damage combos , good movement , defence and punishment is exciting to watch. I also feel there is more respect for those players from viewers/fans of tekken because they know how hard the game is .

[@HawooAwoo]

And I just use a hitbox to avoid or otherwise minimize a lot of that hard execution :3c

[@commoncents5700]

Regarding korean backdash, i halfway agree with you. I think there should be a way for new players to create space without doing a relatively hard input, but i dont think taking away the current way of doing it is a good idea because its actually very intuitive once you do improve at it. I have some alternatives in mind: Instead of what you suggest of making it universal by just mashing back to retreat, make the actual backdash recover faster. Now mashing back will be viable at beginner and intermediate levels but if u want to take it to high level play, you’re gonna have to commit yourself and learn the proper way of korean backdashing. Now everyone is happy, the game is much more accessible to new players and advanced people can do the most optimal version of the technique and enjoy that. Also an improved tutorial would do wonders for getting new players but ive rambled enough thats a topic for another day lol.

[@ВладимирОлейников-г7г]

That's a great suggestion. A perfect one, if you ask me.

[@DanyalElia]

No, I think it has to be universal, either you keep it or you leave it, there is no middle ground.

[@ВладимирОлейников-г7г]

@@DanyalElia But by doing this you achieve the situation where the ones who put the time and effort to learn KBD are still rewarded, while the newcomers are not overwelmed by it. Why do you think this solution isn't optimal?

[@Anomaly188]

A tutorial akin to Guilty Gear Xrd's, which does explain all the game's inbuilt mechanics, how to use them, and their intended use, would go a long way toward easing the steep learning curve Tekken has built for itself. WD and KBD are tricky to explain though because they're meta mechanics that exploit loopholes in animation frames not unlike GunZ: The Duel's K-Style meta where the Block Cancel bug allowed players to exploit the movement system to fly and climb walls.

[@raax7647]

now that's what i call a reasonable argument

[@HereIsYourMaster]

New-ish player here. Honestly I just wish they gave us the option to have the training mode bubbles (High, mid, low) and color coded grabs (1,2,1+2) in casual play. There's just too many steps to learn how to defend properly with little info in the game, and it makes the whole thing really frustrating; proof is, you can go in blue ranks and see players doing clean combos but getting hit by the same strings over and over again. Cherry on top would be adding a flash or something whenever a player makes a + on block move. It would make the whole thing MUCH easier to learn, but you'd still have to work your way through punishing and memorizing this whole thing to step in ranked, where the whole assist system would be forcefully disabled. Mechanical knowledge is a factor too, but at least you can focus on every step of a input and learn it by yourself, so I'd be fine with no changes.. While KBD is discouraging to new players, I don't think it makes or break their experience. Having to lab every single string of every single character, even though they're not going to use half of those in an actual game, does.

[@AshishAroraa]

Yes. Firstly, KBD is pretty useful for whiff punishing like he mentioned in this video. So it's important to make this movement accessible to casuals. The grind to learn KBD is not fun and that is why if Harada wants more new players, he could unlock KBD to everyone. To keep the casuals' attention for longer so that they want to strive to play more. I agree with your comment a lot and one thing I will also add is frame data in fights. I would like to know what frame moves my opponents are busting my ass with right during the match. Labbing characters separately in practice mode to see their move frames is tedious, plus wasteful of time. That's why pro players had to invest 1000s of hours in the game to learn all that they know. Our voices better get listened to for Tekken 8. :'(

[@Lunamana]

Idk the definition of depth vs complexity but i always assumed it was the opposite ? Depth is how deep you can go with the mechanics the game gives you and complexity is how many mechanics there are.

[@anibalmattiwos7613]

Well having 10 moves that all do the exact same thing while having diffrent animations is not really complexity. Having more moves doesn't just make a game more complex, it's what you can do with the moves. It reminds me of the time i was watching LUYG bnb series where they were covering Lee and there was this move they added in tag2 and both Rick and Rip just scratch their heads asking why they gave him that move, since he already had a move that did the exact same thing. That is the problem i think, or a place where they could start, they've removed moves from characters before so i think it's time they start culling the move lists.

[@disruptor6550]

Yeah I'm not too sure either. I personally see depth as the stuff TMM put under "when" or "why". The game has a lot of depth, as in it is very hard to come up with or understand certain strategies. They are so far-reaching and a lot of analysis and practicing is required to understand other's gameplans or apply your own plans to your game. Complexity IMO is the stuff that the game gives you to work with, like movesets. Movesets don't have depth, you literally see their inputs on the screen, so there is no depth in that sense. Moves have COMPLEXITY, as they all need different inputs and depending on the inputs can be hard or easy to execute. 2 moves could (basically) do the same thing, but one could be harder to execute because it needs 5 inputs/buttons to make the move come out while the other move needs 2 and would therefore be much easier. This just means move A is more COMPLEX than move B, it has nothing to do with depth in that sense. Complexity MIGHT slightly affect depth (for example when a move's very hard and strict execution makes you rethink its use and your gameplan) but in general those are 2 very different things. This is just my opinion on this, as this is how I understand these 2 terms.

[@alex_oiman]

depth is the amount of things you can do with a mechanic or in combination of others. complexity is the amount of requirements to accomplish something. depth is something like movement used for positioning, wiff, sidestep, block, input buffer for attacks. complexity is something like the amount of inputs and timing required for KBD or king's RDC. or the amount of data (moves, frames, properties) required to learn for just one character.

[@painandpyro]

The Souls series is popular for a reason. Also, Tekken already has a simple and intuitive method of creating space between yourself and your opponent: you simply hold the back button. Your character will guard while walking backwards (they even finally smoothed the animation). If you want to quickly retreat a larger distance from your opponent, you can backdash by tapping the back button twice - standard fighting game concept. Now the trade off is that if you want to quickly escape, then you sacrifice your ability to defend as well with a backdash; if you want to prioritize strict defense, then you can sacrifice movement speed with back walking. Deciding which one fits your situation is up to the player. That's the "easy" method of defense the game developers intended. Now, backdash canceling is a way to take advantage of the game's natural movement mechanics to "have it all" - speed and defense. Now, on the the surface, such a concept seems game breaking - you're not supposed to be able to have it all. This concept was so groundbreaking, that we literally named it Korean backdash" after the Korean players who showed it to us. It's not supposed to be natural or intuitive, it's basically a FUCKING CHEAT. Why on earth would something so powerful be easy? What Tekken does, in a similar method to the Souls games, is push players far past what they think they are capable of - to the degree that something as difficult as backdash canceling becomes second nature to people like me who've put the time and effort into it. It's not for everybody; if you dont want to put the time and effort in, you're still perfectly capable of playing the game casually with your other friends who dont care enough to learn the finer points of the game - and you'll have a great time, I did it for years, and plenty of people are doing it now. Now, you might say in response: "But, it's impossible to play without these techniques on a competitive level!" The only reason that's true is because all of the best players have learned how to do it, and that means that they've put the time and energy into mastering it. And if you havent put the time and energy into mastering it, then what on earth do you think gives you the right to be able to compete on their level? That's like being upset that you cant compete against professional basketball or football (American or the "real" kind) players because you think it takes too much work to become as fast, strong, and skilled as them. I've always found this attitude that we should for some reason "level the playing field" between newer players and veterans to be at best completely absurd, and at worst, it sounds downright entitled.

[@fabrypotter5]

Thank you for this beautiful response.

[@wolfking4556]

The Souls series is popular because it gives the illusion of difficulty (a.k.a. as artificial difficulty) while it's actually quite an easy game, so people feel good about themselves because they are given a sense of accomplishment and reward. Then you get Sekiro, a game that you actually need to learn how to play with, and people jump around asking for easy mode.

[@DaggerPrince]

its actually funny seeing all these elitist scumbags in the comments who feel so bad about themselves and are so damn insecure, they need to justify their self-worth to themselves by looking at Tekken and saying "Im worth a thing. I spent 50000 hours on a fucking video game and learned how to do something that should be as easy as pressing a button. If Harada makes it easier now, I will feel so worthless." lmao yall mfs need Jesus

[@DanyalElia]

Entitled? sorry for not having the time to grind the game for thousands of hour! we have a life you know? This is a fucking game. We don't want an easier version, all we asked is a bullshit shit to be removed and make as simple as backing away is universal to all of us.

[@Neogears1312]

I don’t think it’s cause of difficulty. Vfs is harder than tekken and I enjoy it way more because it feels better. Tekken feels sluggish and slack jawed in comparison. Vf doesn’t over complicate things. Everyone gets mean hitting throws a wave dash that’s not over complicated and a crouching jab that comes out frame 4. It’s easy to understand hard to execute and doesn’t feel sluggish in the moment. It’s smooth and surprisingly easy for a franchise with such a high skill floor.

[@Rebazar]

As someone who's been playing since Tekken 1, I love how deep the gameplay is... but we know enough about game design and how people approach new games at this point to have our cake and eat it too. There's no reason Tekken can't be approachable AND complex. Tekken 7 made some interesting strides in that area; here's to hoping Namco goes further next time.

[@joshjones9749]

I think certain things were definitely made a bit easier for 7. Throw breaks seem to have a longer window, combos and chain grabs are less strict on button input, rage arts,drives, power crushes, etc yet still it's a very deep game

[@DarkOminigiri]

@@joshjones9749 nah they simplfy it

[@joshjones9749]

@@DarkOminigiri That's what I said 🤔

[@snackpaxcup]

I love this game. In order to really invest myself, I bought a fightstick and noticed how much different the game felt compared to a gamepad. I love the complexity, I've poured hours in Tekken; but I know that if I ever tried to get anybody in this game it would be extremely difficult. Regardless of the hours I've poured in, i know I have so much more to learn in order to actually be able to compete with people who've played this game for YEARS. I'm stubborn, hard-headed, and I love some of these characters. I love it when both players HP is low and the cogs are turning in both players brain to win. Because of that, I can keep going and I can lose 100 battles and more in order to win 1. The ocean is big in this game, some of it is too big for the average person. You never know what fish is gonna come out and eat you.

[@dredre0702]

I agree with you main man, but i don't think the classic input should be removed. I think there should be a middle ground, where you can mash back and get a pseudo kbd, maybe not as fast, or not as far range, and the legacy players who have put in the time can still be rewarded with their excellent movement. I think this makes everyone happy, and retreating a bit easier, while still giving the dedicated a good enough reason to practice, and another option.

[@HowlGough]

4 years later and that's actually what they've done in Tekken 8

[@laumaelinful]

it's more satisfying to learn stuff when it's hard imo, so i like the difficulty even though im a new player

[@elpapibigbird1691]

Agreed the grind is apart of tekken and defines the hardcore good players from the casual. He talks about street fighter but these differences is what defines tekken as the superior game

[@furious_malic7808]

@@elpapibigbird1691 i agree as well. it fucked up the basics of tekken is so complex and difficult to play like movement and such, but its the depth of tekken, and I for one don't mind it.

[@chuckielos5124]

laumaelinful it’s great that you enjoy the level of difficulty in Tekken. It is frustrating as you learn, but so satisfying when you make progress. The game’s graphics, variety of characters, music, and a highly enthusiastic community makes the whole experience really satisfying.

[@Neogears1312]

It’s less satisfying when something does it better for simpler. Vfs always better movement. And I don’t think anyone likes tekken movement more than 8-way run.

[@painandpyro]

@@Neogears1312 And how are those two franchises doing right now?

[@Omegamizu]

That's so, so damn right. The only Tekken players I've ever met were in their 30's. Grew up with the game, and would leave it for absolutely no other fighting game. Including me. Your content is really relevant. I think the exact same way and I'm probably far from being the only one, keep going TMM. The Tekken players are by your side.

[@jRex918]

Young people dont even know that tekken exists. I have only seen people in their late 20s and early 30s play this game. Nobody younger

[@da5hainy556]

@@jRex918 I'm younger. I play it. Have been since T4.

[@nixuniverse5240]

I actually appreciate Tekken’s difficulty. I never found easy fun. It makes it more satisfying once you finally master something and start to destroy people & you start to see all your hard work pay off. It’s kinda like a school project. You can just do a regular old mento in the soda bottle volcano project, but if you really show out and put your absolute best into the project the praise you’ll get is very rewarding and satisfying.

[@EternalSilverDragon]

I like your attitude towards science projects :-)

[@itzcomedyss4086]

He says unececary difficulty the game is already hard

[@TheNevendero]

I'd say that from a perspective of the brand new players, there would be "stages of interest" and most of them would go like this: 1. The game looks cool. 2. I finish the story. 3. If I enjoyed it, I play some casuals 'vs CPU' for some time. 4. I checkout the additional content (minigames and such) 5. I realize that I'm enjoying the heck outta this, so I might try SOME IN-GAME CHARACTER SPECIFIC TUTORIALS, to get a grasp of what's actually going on (We don't have those in game tutorials right now BTW.) 6. I'm hooked at this point: Plot is amazing, characters are badass, there's a hell of a casual content to enjoy if I get frustrated, there's an alive community that I can interact with, and I hear that the devs actually care about online (punishment for ragequits and automatic win for the ones who had stayed, no local rank saving, better matchmaking) - HOLY CRAP! IT MIGHT BE WORTH MY TIME! LEMME LEARN A CHARACTER! The problem is that in our current state, those very players leave after stage 2 or 3 at max - I mean most of them (my friends included). They are not able to reach stage 4, 5 and 6, cuz they're non existent. WHAT IF they did exist? Well then we would have brand new fishes in our ocean at the stage 6. I agree with KBD. I'd make it that double tap back does a 'casual korean backdash' (u know, the one that is not so good, but not so bad either. Technically ideal for spacing), and I'd leave the cancel in here as an option to maximize the speed. That way, by performing the legacy KBD (the current one) you can move even faster, if you want to (There would be an entertaining and detailed tutorial in game on how to do that too). As for 'move bloating' I don't think that's a problem. I can have 100 characters, each with +150 moves and I won't mind that at all, given that the game is hella entertaining. And the term 'study' (as a chore) would cease to exist if that 'entertaining' aspect was in there (all of the latter stages). Aight enough of this essay. Have a good one, everybody who read through this, whether you agree with it or not.

[@DaggerPrince]

what is the point of this thread if the tutorials youve mentioned dont actually exist? like i just slammed my head against the desk at how retarded your logic is. youre basing your whole paragraph of a argument on something that doesnt exist lol. and how do the devs care again? i mean you can plug, you can use your old safe file, you can use macros.... they dgaf lol tekken is a dead game

[@DanyalElia]

lol wtf? useless

[@TheNevendero]

@@DaggerPrince The point of my comment was more of a WHAT IF scenario (mainly stage 4, 5 and 6). Just like TMM's, WHAT IF korean backdash had no input barrier or WHAT IF we trim down character movesets - These ideas do not exist at the moment, that's why it's called an idea, not a documentary. However the KBD and movesets are in fact in the game, yes. In my case, stages from 1-3 exist in the game, and that is where it ends for the new players, because stage 4, 5 and 6 are physically not there. WHAT IF they were? NEW PLAYERS would want to stick with the game, because casual mini games, combo/mechanic/character tutorials or challenges, overall plot, personalities of their characters is what would hook them in. The majority won't stick with T7, because they won't reach 'stage 6'. How can they, when there's no stage 4 and 5 - the casual stuff, let alone fixed online environment in stage 6. The ones who can overlook the casual stuff (stage 4, 5) and end up hooked in, are just: NOT a majority. NOT large player numbers. NOT what we are talking about here. Maybe I phrased my original comment in a weird way, and it looked like I was delusional that stage 4, 5 and 6 actually exist. If so, then sorry bout that and I hope that your face-desk wasn't launch punishable

[@sgr_sean]

The amount of people that dont get this and just resort to talking shit is amazing and sad to look at.

[@roanmang]

Tekken is way too easy. The fact that you only have to do a quarter circle for each step you take backwards is literally brain dead. You should at least have to do a just frame half circle per foot that you move. and the move lists are way too small, there should at least be 2000 moves per character. And the ewgf is way to easy, in the games I play, the ewgf input is how you do a jab

[@riahisama]

weird flex but ok

[@shinykarp4736]

HCF in one frame? have you beem playing andy bogard? that dude used to legit require something of that caliber of execution.

[@eeppy1111]

2000 moves weak, they should do 1000000 moves per char game is balanced that way

[@shinykarp4736]

Luminethereploid JDCR and Arslan Ash used to be KoF pros it seems. prolly why they are mad good on timing and stuff.

[@shinykarp4736]

Luminethereploid I actually do have kof experience. was my go to fighting game before T7. am not any good at it, but the execution required is way too tight. Tekken on the other hand feels very relaxed on the execution. If i recall correctly, K9999 in kof2001 had his Desperation move require hcbx3,qcf+A(the easier version of the input) and since you could cancel certain moves into it, you had about a 10 frame window to buffer it in... or was it smaller..can't recall, but I had a hard time with it. My main andy bogard had a similar problem requring a hcb,qcf+C+D on the first hit of his dp to cancel. Never once have i pulled it off in my life.

[@bakurasensei]

Trying to learn this game gives me a headache, I just watch lmao

[@joejo6969]

The difficulty is what makes Tekken a masterpiece and the best FG for me. Always learning new stuff and when you think you are getting good at the game you get punched in the stomach. Amazing, never change Tekken

[@SkepticGamer]

Is tekken more difficult than street fighter, mortal kombat or any other fighting game? No. It just has more things to remember. While you're busy doing korean backdashes for the 3000th hour, I'm studying the metagame in some other fighting game. Developing fundamentally as a player. Tekken isn't more difficult than other fighting game. It's not harder to win at than in other fighting games. Because if something is "easier", then that applies to your opponent too. It's easier for him too thus cancelling any imaginary advantage you thought you had. Also, when you make a mechanic easier to do, that changes the focus of the game. It changes from emphasizing raw knowledge and technique to learning fundamentals. Mindgames. The actual fun & important stuff. Having more shit doesn't automatically make your game harder and/or better.

[@SkepticGamer]

@Ken That's a very uninformed and stupid thing to say.

[@lolololohacketthackett5142]

Skeptic Gamer while I do agree that a part of Tekken is about a remembering things, it isn’t all true, most “remembering” is done as muscle memory which is necessary to build your execution with FGs, also there’s no “easy” in tekken, if something seems easier it just means that a certain character has more tools/moves/variety that work in situations better than other characters, this makes every character unique and quite difficult to master. Not only that but the fundamentals of the game itself (backdashing) are very powerful, for example sidestepping and backdashing can get you very high up despite having little combo knowledge. This creates strategy that allows the players to correctly anticipate the opponent using 3D movement and frame knowledge. Knowing how to punish correctly and string knowledge comes naturally but needs time to practice. I’m not really sure if you’ve even played tekken properly or you’ve just played it once, got beaten and became frustrated at it

[@joshjones9749]

@@SkepticGamer Wouldnt the fighting game with more information to remember...IN the fight...make it the more difficult fighting game?

[@christoferprestipino7433]

Yeah, nah. I love Tekken and since the PS3 era it has been my most played fighting game series by a mile. But no Tekken has reached the status of masterpiece since T3. Fighters like Third Strike, Sam Sho 2, Mark of the Wolves, MVC2, Super Turbo, kof98, Alpha 3, CVS2 are what should be considered masterpieces and for all the complexity that Tekken has introduced since 3, no subsequent releases sit in the realm with the fighters previously mentioned.

[@YL3nt]

For me personally the kbd is what turned me on to tekken in the first place. The reason I like execution in fighting games is because it kinda reflects the work you have to put in as a martial artist. So while most fighting games place the execution on attacks and combos (like the difficulty of performing kicks, punches and takedowns in real martial arts) I always thought of tekkens movement cancels a the performance of footwork (like pivots and sways). Another factor is that I felt like movement in other fgs like street fighter was kind of stiff espescially when I was mostly used to the movement in smash.

[@TheSilverZodiac]

So you've mentioned how you love the difficulty(only because you can actually do it)but what about the guy who just discovered Tekken at a friends house and just loved playing Bryan. He cannot compete and cannot learn because of the retardedly high dexterity required for the hand-movements in Tekken. TMM's question is "How do we fix this". He quoted Harada as saying he wanted more new players, but uh...good luck getting anyone to invest with a difficulty level this titanic.

[@YL3nt]

@@TheSilverZodiac But nobody expects anyone who has just started out to be able to do these things. It's not even that important as a beginner. There are a lot of people who get pretty far without it (dyrus, jmscrofts) and there are lots of people who can do it but are still trash (like me). The idea that everyone has to be good at the game immediately to play it is completly misguided imo. Fighting games are more about the road to becoming a champ rather than competing at high level. Also my original point was that the kbd can be something fun and appealing in itself. I can only do it because I learned how to and I learned how to because I wanted to. Obviously I'm not expecting anyone to feel the same way about it or even understand where I'm coming from but I just wanted to share my perspective

[@TheSilverZodiac]

@@YL3nt It's not about the community expectations. If say you're new and go online to practice in a lobby. You will NEVER be able to win against the legacy players, because it takes so much time to build up the dexterity to be able to even attempt it. Whereas say in SFV(which I hate)someone new can compete against say Daigo, they may not win but they have a chance. In Tekken there is no chance, you can't even compare. The KBD is so fundamental to Tekken you could be a footsie God from SC6 but you will get terrorized by any player who can KBD and wavedash. This mechanic is SO incredibly fundamental it occupies at least 70% of every match. Tekken is movement, so whoever has the best movement wins, that's all there is to it. that is why Tekken isn't growing as fast as say SF, or Mortal Kombat. I want it to grow, but there tend to be two camps: Those that enjoy a mighty looking high-horse and just screech "Git Gud", and those who seem to advocate a complete refocus of Tekken as a game. I advocate re-adjusting the KBD skill bridge, then all is well I see no reason not to do this..

[@YL3nt]

@@TheSilverZodiac That is total bullshit. You won't stand a single against daigo in sfv but anyone can learn a combo, matterhorn legacy players and take one or two rounds (which actually happend to aris when t7 was new). kbd isnt that powerful alone, there are way more important things to learn as a beginner

[@joshjones9749]

@@TheSilverZodiac There are SO many brand new, fresh faced players in the T7 pro scene right now kicking so much ass its unreal. New players ARE finding success...it just takes learning from mistakes and enjoying the game at all levels of skill. The odds of being among the best are low for every game.

[@kosm_xcx]

I have picked up this game about 8 years ago. The complexity and difficulty of this game is what reeled me in. I am still finding out stuff about my main and picking up new characters just to keep the game fresh and expanding my knowledge more on the character rooster. There’s always something to polish in your gameplay, and I wouldn’t want it any other way.

[@Banner18Secured]

Fucking masochist smh

[@AvgurKRD]

TheMainMan is absolutely right that sometimes less is more. I dont think that developers should remove some moves from the game, but movement should be easier. Tracking system must be more consistent and predictabe. It won't harm the game, because better player will always be a better player. For example, even simpliest games like Tetris an Pong need strategy and skill, and you won't defeat Tetris champion who has been playing it for most of his life. I've been playing Tekken since 1999 and I love it, but I'm worried about its future. Most of players are 30+ years old enthusiasts like me, and young people dont want to spend tons of time just to learn how to move properly. Moreover, should I remind you that fighting games genre overall is dying? Tekken must evolve to survive.

[@CephlonMayngrum]

they dumbed down sf5 and look what happened to that series.

[@CephlonMayngrum]

the genre is on a resurgence. has been for yrs.

[@hustlerfour]

@@CephlonMayngrum you're stupid SF5 had bigger issues than being accessible particularly the lack of content at launch and unstable input lag and at this point in it's lifespan most of them are already fixed, the only questionable design choices that stand in that game are crush counters and V trigger.

[@Kyorinmaru]

@@CephlonMayngrum we don't request dumbing down as in sf5, but just cut really unnecessary stuff.

[@pervhertz8116]

This is so on point. Just imagine 37 yo grabbing 7 when last one I played was 2 at the arcade near my elementary school. So much to take in before you even start playing. Can't blame people without fond memories as mine just to skip it altogether. That said love your content, quality stuff, helps a lot. Take care.

[@KOJO_WINS]

Absolutely agree about the backdash. Similar thing in Smash with short hops. Instead of learning fundamentals and character specifics, I gotta grind to learn how to move back. It's elitist and just covers a flaw in the game design...terrible backdashes. Coming from 2D, Tekken's movement feels...sticky. Like, I know basic strategy...I know when I want to move and why...but I can't. If you can't move in this game you're not really playing.

[@cartoonworld1000]

I agree with the backdash being unnecessarily difficult for such a simple thing, and I do also agree with the shortening of the move list. The only thing I don't personally agree on is shortening the character list, it allows for everyone to choose someone that they gel with, you know. The amount of characters is overwhelming and takes a while to find which one fits their play style, but then that takes the fun out of it, finding your character is only the beginning of the fun.

[@breadtk]

Honestly i probably wouldnt be into tekken as much as i am as a relatively new player if it were easier. I always gravitate towards hard games because of the challenge it gives me and the reward makes the work worth it

[@Neo-wc4zg]

took me about a month constantly practicing a kbd to get an decent one so i think making it easier will help newer players. maybe keep the kbd but have a weaker version by hitting bb

[@burgerking8157]

That's how it works already. It's just too slow without kbd to use

[@kipzonderkop1994]

You could always do bb,d,n,bb~ as a beginner to get a similar but not same effect as a kdb, then once you can do that quick enough, the kbd wouldn’t be hard to learn.

[@disruptor6550]

@@kipzonderkop1994 "If you can play it slowly, you can play it quickly" Bonus points for anyone who gets the reference lol

[@chevychelios4672]

Lol no. People will spam the hell out of it. Besides every character has its own movement like backflip, shadow step, even generic back jump is useful. Not to mention kbd will leave the character open

[@phantom_mist1726]

@@chevychelios4672 once you learn KBD you SHOULD be spamming it, its vital to be good at the game.

[@madnesssupreme]

The Kazuya main wants Tekken to be more simple. What a surprise.

[@turnkeychief4835]

So much for playing a tough char becuz of his hard to play aspect 😂

[@SeigoSaiga]

Shut up scrub, we don't take kindly to green ranks around here

[@turnkeychief4835]

Thank you for the insightful words brother

[@SeigoSaiga]

@@turnkeychief4835 You are most welcome

[@turnkeychief4835]

Mishima wavedash should also be a one button input smh too difficult 😤

[@CephlonMayngrum]

tekken is abt players creating new original techniques within the games engine, which helps developers make better sequels. that is the circle of tekken life

[@boitahaki]

Fighting games will always have this curse of becoming less and less popular with time, because the legacy players will completely crush the newer players every time, making it impossible for newer players to enjoy a game with someone on their own level.

[@YL3nt]

How are newer players affected when they are just playing with each other and not with the legacy players?

[@rayatr9783]

@@YL3nt going online, playing with friends who introduced them, local meetups in case they enjoyed the single player experience so much they want to make friends etc etc

[@lordvectra7821]

@@rayatr9783 right and a newer player better not attempt to be competitive lol

[@rikuheart91]

Tekken needs a well designed tutorial, plus i agree on many stuff you said in the video you made good points.

[@superdupeninja8149]

rikuheart91 I agree

[@JazzRadioFfm]

i'm pretty sure that's why you(we?!) love kazuya. because he's a 5 move character and you don't beat anyone with an overwhelming move-count, but by being the frickin master strategist and executioner. no other charater waits 20 seconds to get the damn ewgf in and unleash hell. and no other character looks so much like punishment-incarnate like kazuya. he's the worst when you suck (like me) and the best when you got gud.

[@vasilisp1517]

AS A NEWCOMER TO THE GAME COULDN'T AGREE MORE! I am 20 years old and i have always loved fighting games.I used to play tekken 5 but i was really young and didnt really knew what i was doing.Recently i reached grandmaster in mortal kombat 11 and i thought that it would be a good idea if i try something different to further expand my skills.tekken in my opinion is a wonderfull game with a huge mechanical demand which is good .but as you said a movelist that big for every character and some unnecessary like korean back dash are at least , overwhelming for someone that has not been playing FOR YEARS.I know almost every essential thing ,like frama data etc ,that every fighting game player should know. BUT I DONT EVEN STAND A CHANGE COMPITING WITH THESE GUYS because as a newcomer is impossible for me to learn all the 27000 moves in the game ,(which of them are interruptible,what part is caranted if the first hit hits,to what direction i should side step,etc).dont get me wrong i love the mechanical skill that tekken requires you to acquire,and how it pushes you to improve as a player. I can see why an ewgf or a wave dash is hard to execute and i love that , because there is a meaning behind it,its hard for the character to do it so it only makes sense that it must be hard for the player too. But some things like kbd that the only thing that your character does is dashing backdowrds,or ENORMOUS move lists, imo have to go cause they are really unnecessary and they only thing that they add, is frustration to the new players that are hardcore fans of the genre.

[@micah6428]

Tekken is a masterpiece on a mechanical level. They should not change how backdash canceling works etc. If they want to remove bloat, then they must reduce the amount of characters and strings there are in the game. That's the only way I see they could improve Tekken as a more fair and competitive game.

[@raax7647]

k now give me a reasonable argument for kbd being hard and no there are beginners who abuse it so nahh they were always able to do it

[@micah6428]

@@raax7647 Because that's how the game just works. I don't see the game being better with not being able to cancel your backdash with a D/B input. It's a cool mechanic after all.

[@IAMOP]

Partially agree with KBD but a complete BIG NO for the bloating thing. If we go by that, why do we even need 4 Mishima's in the game? Let's remove 3 of them and keep Devil Jin. Disliked.

[@disruptor6550]

If anything, then we need more characters in the game so you could upload even more videos of how you troll other people with each and every one of them.

[@IAMOP]

@@disruptor6550 indeed 🤤

[@zachsundberg4561]

You've said both things I came here to say. I'd go the other way though. Have DJ be a Rage transform for Jin like Devil is for Kaz.

[@IAMOP]

@@zachsundberg4561 That would be cool too.

[@bodler]

In an era where fighting game developers are pumping out monkey easy linear and low skill ceiling abominations like SFV and DBFZ, I think we need complex games like Tekken 7 to help fighting games save face.

[@FinDread0]

thats cool and all but the game is very unpopular. averaging 2000 steam users with over 3 million copies sold is pretty telling. this is why the tournament prices are complete shit compared to any other e sport.

[@jeremyfuller7730]

@@FinDread0 Nope. Last time they released the entry numbers for EVO, Tekken was beating out Street Fighter for the game with the most entrants. Only Smash had more entrants (isn't a fighting game tho). It's the most popular fighting or tied with Street Fighter for popularity right now. That has nothing to do with the prize money considering it sold so well and the DLC sold well also, not to mention they upped the prize money this year. The prize money is shit compared to other E Sports is because it's a fucking fighting game and requires skill unlike League or HearthStone or whatever. The reason it doesn't have that many steam users is because PS4 has the largest player base and because it's a fighting game, bums quit almost immediately

[@FinDread0]

@@jeremyfuller7730 it does not matter how many users are on ps4 even if there were double the amount of users on ps4 the amount of copies sold to current player ratio would still be shitty. the argument that because "Fighting games take skill it does not have good price money" makes no fucking sense in my honest opinion. games like league and HS have huge prize pools because they have massive amounts of money generated by the even larger player base, there is no such thing for tekken.

[@thefruitstand9648]

@@jeremyfuller7730 The game is extremely popular with long time players. That explains the entrants numbers. People who have played tekken mostly agree that this is one of if not the best Tekken game ever made. The issue is wider appeal and retaining newer players. This game is one of the hardest games I've ever tried to I to introduce to people. Most people I know would rather watch. It's a very fun game to watch, even when you don't understand.

[@ZenkieTV]

Why is the red dot on a dart board so small? I mean, can't they just make the whole board red so that every time I throw a dart it's always a bull's eye?

[@lp3255]

He has a great point. Mechanics like the korean back dash was never an intended mechanic but now its vital in order to be somewhat competent at the game. It's the same unofficial mechanic with the dragon ball budokai series. cancelling combos was just something that was accidentally discovered and now if you try to play at a intermediate or high level you will get your ass handed to and now the gameplay revolves around it. that's where tekken in it's way suffers. As a law player, it's even more of a testament because something like dragon stance after certain moves is not even taught to you. the only reason why I even found because it looked so odd and out of place and KZbin has to tell you how to do. And that's the worst thing a fighting game can do is when they don't show you how to do it. It leaves people scratching their heads because it doesn't explain at all that you can do that and what's more even damning is that if you don't know it's there then if means the difference between killing off a opponent with a combo or losing because you have to now play around an unintended mechanic. And just like he said, no one new is going to want to practice for weeks or months or even years to learn just one mechanic in order to become decent let alone someone like King who literally has over 200 moves in his command list when in reality high level players may only really at best use only 25 to 50 moves to win. Just my opinion

[@mrastronomical67]

Just wanna say, the first video I've even watched of you was your FIRST Bryan synopsis video... Since then Ive been hooked cause I realize you're critical thinker and not just a play on autopilot and confidence type of guy. You appreciate challenges and you don't complain- you just get better. And that's perfect , sometimes just watching a random video you post makes me feel better about the game and playing it entirely. please don't ever stop ‼️

[@YaboiFoxTale]

Amen!

[@whitesaint760]

Give us a tutorial. I'm like 2 months into the game and still discovering basic mechanics that I should've been aware of on day 1. Game just drops you in the main menu and you gotta figure it out.

[@josh_sama4627]

I actually think it's pretty cool that tekken is very hard

[@troysmith8400]

Its not cool for a casual gamer. If your goal is to have new players then difficulty isn't the recipe

[@joshjones9749]

@@troysmith8400 Making the game easier sure didn't work out for Street fighter 5 lol

[@troysmith8400]

@@joshjones9749 cant argue with that lol. Br runs the majority of gamers. Fighters are doomed

[@umutyildirim9928]

Balance, that's how it should be.

[@umutyildirim9928]

@@joshjones9749 It wasn't because of difficulty it was Capcom's stupidity. They made it easier to appeal casual but they removed legacy characters and single player modes that casuals loved. Also everything was expensive. Difficulty wasn't the factor, hardcore players are still playing. Street Fighter has a different formula, they always completely change how the game plays. Some people like, some people don't. SF2- Projectile and footsie based game, mostly character mastery. SF Alpha- Custom combo system and ISM system. SF3- Parry system made projectile useless and changed the game's style. SF4- Added Focus system. That system added armor and armor break moves. Ultra combos, they almost deal the same damage you get from your opponent. For example, if your opponent does 30% damage, you could do 25-30% (depending on which Ultra you use) damage back to them. Plus, you could do them in the middle blockstun like Ryu's crouching midkick to fireball string. Dragon punches have so many invincible frames, they were low risk high reward reversals and if opponent blocks you could focus cancel them. SF5- Added V-System. It has V-Reversal (borrowed from Guilty Gear series), V-Skill and V-Trigger. A simple V-Trigger combo deals 50% damage and 70-80% stun. Meter reduced to 3 bars from 4, it made using super easier and blocked normals gives more meter than SF4. V-Trigger stops time while activating so you can activate V-Trigger as soon as you see your opponents fireball and do super motion while activating V-Trigger and do your super through fireball for 30-40% damage. They are all different, just have the same name. As you can see game shifted from character mastery to system mastery. SF is a different scenario, every version is different and some people like while some don't.

[@felipechaves6100]

There’s a reason why when we see people with amazing movement in Tekken pro matches we go crazy, but in SFV if we see someone whiffing enemy’s attack with a back dash we’re like “whatever”... remove the difficulty barrier and we get the “whatever” effect for Tekken as well. And tbh, if you try hard enough you should be able to master kbdc in not so much time.

[@umutyildirim9928]

I was shocked when I saw Knee's instant dashes. His character looked like glitched and he was like teabagging while moving. 😂 Difficulty is what made me bored of Street Fighter and got me into Tekken. I just don't enjoy SF tournaments anymore. It is just 2 players crouch blocking hitting blockstun until a hitconfirm then a 50% damage combo, repeat it a few times and game over. Plus chip damage is cancer, Ryu can take half of your damage with Hadoken until you get close.

[@Ursmoov]

As an ex smash 4 and smash ultimate player here who is looking into a new fighter really enjoyed this video. Smash is really interesting because it is really easy to learn how to play smash, their no crazy techs and everything you see a pro do you can do it (for the most part) because the game mechanics are easy to pick up and learn (most of them). Smash really relies on the when and why aspect and that is what I love smash. The reason for me leaving smash however is because the online is horrible in ultimate. I was looking into Tekken because I've watched some gameplay on high level and it looks fun but it is really disappointing to hear that it is so tech-based to the point I have to practice in training mode to just do simple moves. I am a casual gamer don't care that much about winning and rank I just want to get on play a few games and go into practice mode sometimes to master my character without having to do so much work. it's sad to see a game that really peaked my interest turn me off due to the high skill ceiling that I am not willing to clime.

[@Atilolzz]

I think the problem isn't the 40+ characters and their 100+ moves per se, there are 2 giant factors that make everything a much worse grind: -proper evasive movement -random crush It's so weird that you have to do a korean backdash so you have a "proper" backdash to make your enemies whiff their moves, that alone needs practice. And not every sidestep works "same well", some characters have better sidesteps, some moves have to be sidestepped to a specific direction and sometimes you even have to sidewalk in order to make the enemy whiff. Lots of labbing. And then there is unfair crush. I won't make an essay, here are 2 examples: Katarinas hopkick crushes highs, lows and even mids sometimes Lings Art of Phoenix stance crushes mid jabs. Absolutely mind boggling, evasive movement should be easier and a mid should always hit. Then I wouldn't mind learning 44 characters

[@abirneji]

but I'm pretty sure the korean backdash is more just an exploit rather than something they put into the game on purpose

[@lookatmynips]

Don't forget about Josie's bullshit butterfly edge...

[@barsozkan2048]

As a player who started learning Tekken with Tekken 7. I absolutely love the complexity and depth. Although there is a lot to learn you don't need to learn and practice to each according knowledge to be competitive or to win, not even close. You do not need to know everything to enjoy this game. The potential is huge but no need to fulfill it to the fullest to have fun and play competitively. Isn't that why we still see pro players with 15+ years making matchup knowledge and execution errors? A great positive is that I still learn new shit even after playing it for more than 2 years with 300+ hours, it is really satisfying and exciting. Hell, even when I don't have access to good internet to play online imma open that shit up and practice my KBD and combos, I fail to get bored of those practices. I see it as an extension to my player ability just like how athletes train their body regularly. Lastly, I think you make a wrong assumption as to why people will prefer a fighting game over the other. People don't decide to play Street Fighter over Tekken because it is easier and has less depth, mostly it is because they want to play the shota characters with shoryukens, hadoukens and with a projectile zoning game. While the new player growth is low, I think Tekken has one of the most loyal player base attributed to the features I mentioned above. Taking away the execution will open up the game for more new players but it is such a good game to play and spectate. Tekken 7 easily had the hypiest moments in its history and removing the complexity will definitely hurt it.

[@Ludnorc]

I'd rather be bad at tekken than good at Street Fighter.

[@disruptor6550]

Why not both

[@brownwallet942]

That's stupid. Always be good at what you are playing. Daigo will always be much better than a Tekken nobody

[@tekkenmaster123]

KAWAII couldn't have said better myself

[@sonofaballer96]

@@tekkenmaster123 The old street fighter games were very hard to master.

[@Omegamizu]

Well said my man.

[@supportivefather570]

I think you're missing an important point about the KBD. In my opinion, it's not unnecessarily difficult. It's there for players who are willing to put in the time and be rewarded for learning it. It's not like regular back dash doesn't exist/isn't useful. New players don't need to learn a KBD immediately in order to start playing and enjoying themselves. The fact that even a mechanic as simple as movement in Tekken is difficult makes it infinitely more appealing to me than every other modern fighting game on the market.

[@raax7647]

that's complexity for no reason but new players can't even get in the game because of this if they add keyboard support for console then i think alot of people may try it

[@supportivefather570]

@@raax7647 It's not, though! KBD's function is incorporating BETTER defensive movement into your arsenal, but the trade off is that it's more difficult to execute than a normal back dash. Every good mechanic, to my knowledge, uses this form of risk/reward to some extent. Electric is an example of this. Regular wind god fist is not very difficult to execute, but it's still a high, and unsafe on block. Electric is much more demanding, especially if you want it consistently, but it's now plus on block, has faster recovery on whiff, and gives a launch + good damage just like the WGF.

[@YL3nt]

Exactly. kbd isn't even that important as a beginner. theres lots of people without it that are way better than people who can actually do it (like me I'm still getting rekt all the time lol).

[@joshjones9749]

@@raax7647 new players shouldn't even THINK about KBD for a long time. It's a HIGH level move not even for its execution but application. You gotta know what you're doing to use it.

[@umutyildirim9928]

I played Tekken Tag 1 and 5 when I was a kid. My goal wasn't being a good player, I was just learning the movelist of character, I couldn't do combos because I didn't know how to juggle or what a launcher is. I was messing around Yoshi's special moves or Devil Jin's 1-1-2, 1-2-2, 2-1-4 etc. I didn't even know you could cancel dash by crouching or sidestepping. I didn't know any dash cancels, I didn't know launchers and homing moves but I enjoyed the game as a noob. Last year, I started to play fighting games competitively after SFIV, it felt good to play a technical game rather than shooting everything I've always loved fighting games, my favourite games are mostly fighting games I played when I was a kid. After Street Fighter I wanted to play another fighting game and Tekken came to my mind after all these years and I watched some tournament matches to see if it is good as I remember and I was shocked when I saw what they do. KBDs, long juggle combos, using stage for more damage, parrying, I didn't know these stuff existed and game feels more exciting now. So these mechanics shouldn't be removed but I agree with overwhelming movesets and game needs a good tutorial mode like Under Night In-Birth Exe:Late[st] (what a long name, how they can market this 😂).

[@TheLinkrules123]

Some steps are to allow us to see frame data for moves in practice mode and allow online practice mode. Also allow people to practise when in a custom game when waiting for someone else's game to finish instead of just spectating

[@TheSilverZodiac]

So I notice a LOT of comments saying "well I like it BECAUSE it's difficult", or "the difficulty reflects the hard work you put in". Okay....ummm, you aren't the target of the discussion, the new day-1 Lopez is. This BASE-LEVEL MECHANIC is a problem because you need to tirelessly work just to use it.

[@tariqkhan-qo3ow]

I used to hate the complexity when I first picked up tekken 7, now I've learnt to love it, you are always learning somthing new in tekken, that's the beauty of the game.

[@khorn102]

its honestly one of my favorite parts of the game, it makes me respect my opponent more when i see how they move and know the work they put in the achieve that. Also, it would unbalance mishima characters, because the skill gap between them and every other character in the game would be even larger if they removed kbd. If "how" is so unimportant, then why not make all godfists electric?

[@burgerking8157]

He's talking about backing up though, not doing a move that is overly strong with a requirement of execution

[@DanyalElia]

The context is backing away bro, why do you make something so crucial and simple as backing away too complex?

[@khorn102]

@@burgerking8157 the point that i was trying to make is it would mean you would have to rebalance ewgf, because if you lower the execution barrier across all characters, the gap between it and the average execution requirement becomes greater, thus making necessary a bigger reward for the bigger demand.

[@burgerking8157]

@@khorn102 you lower the execution barrier equally for Mishimas. They would no longer have to kbd either. It's not like there aren't difficult inputs for other characters already. iwr, qc, giant swing, debugger, the list goes on and on really. I don't think anyone would expect to see those moves made easier if backdash was revamped. Why would electric be any different.

[@painandpyro]

@@DanyalElia To move backwards all you have to do is hold back. If you want to do something near "game-breaking" like electrics or moving backwards faster than the game intended while also blocking, then it's going to take a little more work

[@marioulloa2593]

To be fair the Korean back dash was never intended by the developers to be part of the game

[@RagingBigfat]

As much as I love tekken, yeah it's too much. Too many moves, emphasis on movement is too important for no reason. You get characters that have 2 throws, then some that have 4 or 5. You have moves that crush weirdly. It's insane.

[@georgecastanza6712]

I wouldn't say for no reason but I agree with the rest

[@DanyalElia]

The things that you said is the exact reason why movement is very important lol to negate all of those things!

[@khandokarzabir7417]

if they simplify tekken, all the hardcore players are gonna lose their shit, it'd be hilarious

[@jojo7315]

It already is

[@Dextrous90]

The thing I wish the most is better ways to learn the game inside the game. Put frame data in the move list, give us a frame data UI on the screen in practice mode if we want one. Also, with current machine learning advancements or just clever use of good old statistics, you could make bots behave like real players, or at least a lot closer to them, so that you could spar against a character you want to improve against instead of having to specifically "program" them yourself. Having trouble against Hwoarang? Go into practice mode, pick him as your opponent, pick a skill level and off you go against AI controlled Hwoarang that uses the same moves and movement as a generic Hwoarang would at that approximate skill level. And for the love of god, make a real tutorial. Teach newbies straight out what unblockable, high, mid, low, special mid and throw attacks are. How to get off the ground, what's a launcher, what's a combo, what the wall does, how to break a throw, what's a parry, what's an armor move, what the while running and while standing states are... The list goes on.

[@Noum77]

The main argument of people supporting the bloat is "we have choice now". Yes you have many characters to choose from, and it's great for casual play. But when you want to go beyond that, you'll realize you have a massive wall before you (the bloat), preventing you from being as good as the legacy players. And you'll also realize learning one character is not enough to be good a the game, because you'll need to, at the very least, lab half of the roaster at the same time to have a slight chance, even if you don't plan to play them.

[@rikyoh130]

it's necessary, i feel good and proud by doing hard things that's why i love tekken.

[@elpapibigbird1691]

Riky Oh Agreed the grind is apart of tekken and defines the hardcore good players from the casual. He talks about street fighter but these differences is what defines tekken as the superior game

[@eyroonee]

For me, the difficulty of tekken is what got me hooked in the game. The learning process is very steep and hard but seeing that my time of practicing mechanics such as kbd, wavedashing, throw breaking, and punishing is showing difference in skill during matches just makes me want to improve even further.

[@gromba]

I see you conveniently ignored all the thousands of moves and frames you have to know, or should know. Thats more like studying for an exam and has nothing to do with skill. We have jobs and school. Its to TIME consuming.

[@wishi6616]

I just want a fucking tutorial. I didnt even know the moves that make your character go flippy are called screw moves.

[@josepartida1711]

As a 35 year old player who barely picked up T7 after not playing a tekken since 3 I can say that it’s rewarding achieving these tekken milestones by practicing. It’ll annoy me if they simplify it the next go around. I was playing sfv before I picked this game up and I regret not playing it sooner.

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

6:52 You nailed why I'm not fond of grinding most FGs. I wish we could get to the strategy easier, and not be bogged down by the mechanics.

[@Vahaldu]

Personally i like the game like that, but i think its necessary to include the frame data in training and a big, great and complete tuto like in MK11. I don't want to play a 3D SFV just because many guys want a simple game

[@Vahaldu]

3 years update, finally i agree with you mainman, because reduce the complexity of backdash is the best way to not reduce the importance of mouvement in the game i think(like tekken 7 did)....and reduce the amont of move yeah but just the really unnecessary stuff i would say.

[@ShawnWeeded510]

I agree with you on mechanics like Backdash being easier and move list being simplified a bit but not to the degree you’re asking for. Somewhere close to 60-80 moves is cool imo but rosters size should probably at the most be 50. I’m cool with rosters on average being 30-40. The comparison to Endgame/Infinity War was a weak argument. A lot of fans main a lot of different characters and removing some of them doesn’t add anything or incentivize new players to pick up Tekken. I’d like to see you provide a some evidence where a franchise taking away characters has contributed to new players.

[@UndefeatableKing]

Agreed I understand how a large character pool can look intimidating but. there's probably a very small minority of people that are like "this game looks fun, but they're too many characters to pick from...pass....".

[@grandpanoogie2665]

I saw one guy in the comments down here with an idea to jut make the backdash recover quicker, which I like, so here's my spin on that. The first backdash is your standard run of the mill backdash with all normal backdash capabilites. The second backdash follows suit, but the third backdash loses the ability to block while backdashing, same with the 4th, and then the 5th consecutive backdash puts you into ki charge. You can stop these symptoms of spam backdashing by learning to kbd. Spamming back is easier and a bit faster, but not as safe, while the kbd keeps you safe from danger at the cost of some speed.

[@ZhangHe2369]

I think KBD is a symptom of a movement system in a 3d game that has hold back to block. Both soul calibur and vf don't have weird backdashing inputs mostly because they don't have to worry about d/b being low guard. Vf is an equally technical game, but it's decisions are based on reads and option selects, not on the ability to move backwards. KBD being just as hard as the mvc2 magneto ROM with the reward for your efforts being "the ability to go backwards at a reasonable speed" is just stupid. There's also a lot of legacy things that only exist to reward knowledge that is absurdly neiche. I'm talking about Chickens, armbar breaks, figure four counter, off the wall attacks etc. Chicken is really dumb cause counters can already be countered by elbows/knees or with snake edge moves. There shouldn't be a way to universally option select out of your own sloppy offense. It's just needless guff that aren't even real choices.

[@andreacazzola8637]

That's true 3D fighter are much better with block button. KBD is an ugly unnecesary mechanic that make the characters look like they are in a costant seizure

[@ZhangHe2369]

@Ken not really, cause I snake edge them or do a launcher with a knee or elbow. Counters already have built in answers, chicken is just redundant and make it look like your rewarding people mashing against your read.

[@Backdoorsk]

Kurt, have you ever played Kazuya against an Asuka that only uses d+3+4 and Reversal? And by reversal I mean the fast version. Kazuya has only 1 knee move(no elbows) and it's a string, which isn't a natural combo, is really hard to use chicken with EWGF, so half your offense is compromised, the other half(crouch dash mix ups) can be crushed by d+3+4, see what I mean? Chicken is not that easy to do, there's a reason it always surprises people when it happens in tournaments.

[@ZhangHe2369]

@@Backdoorsk just wait and FF+3, b 1+4, or hellsweep. Chickens are a non-factor in almost ever matchup. But it's weird they continue to exist just as mechanical bloat.

[@Backdoorsk]

Reversal counters ff 3 and b 1+4, unless you chicken hehe, if you take too long to start the CD for the hellsweep(and online is always the case) the fast version of the reversal will recover fast enough to start the can-can. Punishing or whiff-punishing online with Kazuya is always a Heaven or Hell situation with minor lag making stuff randomly safe. I like the chicken mechanic, it's a "read on a read", and every char can do it, much like low parries, universal tools are always welcome in my opinion. If a new player asks what can he/she do against Asuka's reversal, it's better to have a bloated answer like"You can hit them with elbows, knees, lows, throws and you can also chicken" and let them discover what works better for his/her char, but the chicken option will be there no matter the char pick.

[@requiem418]

Tekken isn't that complex if you ask me. The concepts can be easily understood by newcomers. Most of the cast is easy to use and play but what the game is lacking is a good tutorial mode, frame data in practice mode and good offline content. Tekken 7 has already been simplified so we need not simplify it further, because then there would be no difference between this game and other fighting games because the other games' complexity has been toned down like sf.

[@bloodmoney7968]

Wow....these were always exactly my thoughts too...i'm happy that someone with visibility brought it on the surface

[@kennlyrichards8919]

They just have to explain the concepts to new players so that they understand the game better, yet still rewarding players for transforming that knowledge into execution. For example, there are many players that understand how to throw there opponent (because it’s in each characters move list) but they don’t understand how to break them. So if you implemented a tutorial that explains how throw breaking works it would help a new player gain understanding but it won’t give them the execution required to break a command throw on reaction consistently which would reward season players, vets, etc who put the time in to practice execution of these fundamentals And this is just one example in the entire game

[@EternalSilverDragon]

I strongly agree on having about 25 characters (T1, 2, 3 & 4 all had less than that), I'm on the fence about KBD, but I would leave the move lists how they are (or at least not slash them too badly). More offline content (team battle, survival) would make the game more fun and give players more to do. Better story telling like in T4 would make the characters more relatable, especial for non-Mishima characters. A tutorial mode for teaching concepts (like punishing, keep-out, approach tools, CH fishing, CH baiting, crushing, 50/50's, tracking, frame traps, natural combos, jailing, okizeme, tech traps) would really make the gameplay feel more accessible.

[@XionTheSylveon]

This is EXACTLY the way to teach newcomers. Teach them the conceptual stuff and how to go about using it all as that's far more important than the things you can practice executing at any time.

[@abirneji]

tbh a lot of the new characters feel like bloat now, and they're all cheesy as hell I'm alright with having a lot of characters, as long as they aren't cheap

[@XionTheSylveon]

@Ken Agreeable take tbh

[@Azaism]

This is why I love Virtua Fighter. It offers even more depth and technicalities than Tekken, and does it without bullshit artificially inflated difficulty in execution. Not that there aren't any difficult commands at all, but they are so few and far between and are never the main part of the game. (for example, Akira has an attack where you have to press K+G on the same frame and then release G exactly 1 frame later, but this attack is rarely a normal part of anyone's gameplan because he has so many other tools that you can forget about this one specific attack and still be fine) Virtua Fighter IS the game Tekken would be if it prioritized the When and Why over the How. If you boil this down to the classic concept of "brain vs brawn", VF is the brain and Tekken is the brawn. Also, VF feels less bloated because most of the information there is to learn feels more purposeful. Less busywork. Less wasting your time just for the sake of wasting your time. There is exactly as much information to learn as needed for all the mechanics to be shown to their intended potential, and very little bloat info info on top of that. The only thing that really feels a little bloaty is needing to learn different combos for whether you are in "closed" or "open" foot stance. I feel like the game would be completely fine if they removed this mechanic. You could also argue that needing to learn combos for all the different weight classes is a little bloaty. It wouldn't be so bad if they just stream-lined the entire roster into 3 standardized weight classes (light, medium, heavy), but it doesn't currently work like that. Every char is technically their own weight class, and while most of them overlap and the same combos work between them, there are one too many extreme outliers that are their own weight class. But at the end of the day, I would still take VF's slightly bloaty-ness over Tekken's excessive bloaty-ness any day.

[@CephlonMayngrum]

tekken is alive and kicking. vf is dead. u said nothing

[@imp106]

looks like they're doing the less characters in tekken 8

[@MahakaSwaggg14]

The lack of new players is a result of the game only recently gaining mass appeal, with time the casuals will turn to hardcore fans, just as they would with any game.

[@Seifer_PT]

Tekken being the way it is makes you take a college course before you can get to the part where it's two minds fighting each other. T7's solution to "movement is hard", instead of being making it easier was making it worse. That way, you don't have to be as defensive. Now you throw out your safe homing mid ch launcher and hope it hits. If it does, get ready to be on KZbin top 10 hype comeback compilations. Your opponent can't really run away from things like Jin f4 or King ff1 or Noctis ff1+2. Sidestepping is less effective than previous games too, so it's easier to get somebody stuck in a loop of mix ups. Actually, I do believe they designed one of the new characters around it. Kazumi. So even getting past the part where you're capable of punishing strings and moves, having good movement and whatever, you're going to have to deal with dumb stuff anyway. I don't like the direction fighting games are going with "be more aggressive" in general. You can see this too in SFV and SC6.

[@presabranca]

They really change the effectiveness of Sidestep? I was thinking that but I just thought that I was rust, I was Tekken Lord with Jin in T5, but after I starting playing online in T7 I realize how much I suck at the game, but if they changed I´m I little disappointed, I used to sidestep a Lot, now I can be hit by a straight strike even though I sidestep, its get me mad all the time.

[@Ali-fs7ze]

Not to mention Hitbox. Which not only completely removes the barrier of KBD and Wavu speed with it's SOCD; but it also makes just frames way easier. KBD is just there to fuck with new players at this point, cause everyone else can already do it consistently 99% of the time.

[@fighterxaos1]

I'm not too proud to say that I do believe some things are unnecessarily difficult. I don't think it's quite fair that just because my thumbs don't hit something as well because they're jittery or whatever. I understand the other comments here saying it's satisfying to learn a new skill but just because you can do something like a KBD doesn't mean you're a good player overall. But someone who knows the game and knows what to do but simply doesn't have the dexterity to pull it off should be getting Ls because they just can't pull it off because of something they were born with?

[@16bitjeff]

Agreed! To you & the others stating the same don't listen to those edgelord, neckbearded soft bois that "rep" the FGC. e.g. r/Kappa users - signed a true FGC player

[@machinejuice5965]

wait ? you can kbd by just doing f,n,qcf?? ive been doing it the hard way this whole time

[@gcal8263]

The hard way, you can kbd with Paul and Bryan and it's more consistent the hard way

[@duckyedits6753]

in my opinion, they should keep the korean backdash the same difficulty, but they should make normal backdashing faster. if a normal backdash is like 60-70% the speed of a korean backdash, low to mid level players can stick to normal backdashing, while professional players have room to optimize their play. that way, the skill floor is lower but the skill ceiling is the same height.

[@UltimateTS64]

You can say it's called TECHen huh? 😂

[@Lunamana]

Your character count thing isn't as simple as you're saying i think, there's a lot in adding/removing characters. More characters attract more people because people just like different characters. More characters come with more mechanics because people would complain about every character being the same (although i don't think that's very linear, you probably could remove some mechanics even with the current character count). I do agree with the korean backdash part, but removing KBD won't suddenly make tekken the most popular game out there. A lot of fighting games suffer from the same thing, the fact that you can only blame yourself when you lose and if you're playing casually, not learning any mechanics whatsoever it can get frustrating because you can't win without learning the game. Also don't know the stats about this, but isn't Tekken the most popular fighting game ? I feel like they're fighting an uphill battle against the genre itself.

[@xLimitlesso]

All Tekken needs is a basic tutorial covering important mechanics. The existence of movement cancelling, High/Mid/Low system, and other basic stuff like parties etc. If someone isn't willing to put in the time learning KBD, they're likely not willing to learn anything else about the game. It takes a few hours to groove the basic input, and then it's just improving your consistency slowly over time.

[@deovolente4622]

I was a King main and then Law main. Law combos were hard af with the dss cancelling but I got used to it. Left the game, came back a month later and got into Paul. I realized the answer to life was just UAAARGH

[@pant3r04]

I really don't think making Korean back dashing should be easier and it isn't gonna change anything. Cause if anything I see new players and people in lower ranks know how to do it really well but they still get whopped because they don't know how to fully utilize a KBD.

[@Backdoorsk]

Bad ideas, make backdashing easier and suddenly that one Eddy/Hwo player that cheeses you (and helped you learn proper spacing) will now have the edge by easily spacing you and pressing b+3 hehe. Less chars means more Season passes(and less diversity in tournaments, online too). Less moves would probably end up in TMM making a video called "How Tekken became boring."

[@Buhnkiller]

we have enough characters give me more maps. the tekken 7 maps are so boring and ugly

[@umutyildirim9928]

@@Buhnkiller Agreed. Dead or Alive series has the best stages, they should make one or two stages like Dead or Alive's.

[@Backdoorsk]

@@Luminethereploid I understand what you mean, and it's kind of elitist to think about keeping movement a hard thing, but if you think about it, one of the reasons people got bored of SF5 it's because they leveled parts of the field between pros and casuals. Remember, you now have the ability to out space the cheeser because you worked hard on your movement, it's your hard work pay off hehe. It's weird to "give" movement right now, because it would help beginners, but it would also help people who just pick easy chars for easy wins. Suddenly an Arslan Ash wouldn't feel so great, cause anyone could create space like him with much less work.

[@Backdoorsk]

But TMM always says that if you fight a red rank Katarina player, there's a big chance he doesn't have good movement, just a cheap style or cheese. But if you fight a orange rank Bryan or Mishima he will always have good movement. Then comes the big question(and the reason I think they will never change the backdash execution) "Should we make spacing easier and benefit the Kat player even more? Or should we keep it the way it is, so that when the Kat player decides to pick a Mishima or any other char, he'll have to learn proper spacing like everyone else?". i feel like the change TMM proposes would be like Season 2 rank points system, where Green ranks turned to Yellow, Orange turned Reds, etc. The funny thing is, i'm a Kazuya player, an average one, i've reached Mighty Ruler in Season 2, but i've never felt like I was anywhere near Red or Dark Blue ranks skill wise(even with the argument of ranks don't matter), i would benefit a lot from easier backdashing, but it would feel cheap to me to land a BD EWGF if it was easier to perform the spacing, but that's just my opinion. You can't deny that if they've made KBD into something like bb, bb, chars like Asuka or Hwo, that have easy lauchers, would turn into literal nightmares on a casual level.

[@Angeal98]

I don't know about the movement. When I play soul calibur 6 it seems the game is really flat, it's weird to press forward and the character just runs forward :)

[@umutyildirim9928]

Plus, I hate block button in fighting games. After playing other games and then switching to Soulcalibur, I always press back to block and lose the match or vice versa. 8 way run of Soulcalibur allowed diagonal runs so positioning was more important than spacing because of ring outs. Different games, different styles. I can't imagine trying to KBD to escape Nightmare's blade, it is so long I would need 3-4 backdashes. 😂 Tekken movement wouldn't fit SC.

[@itzcomedyss4086]

Paul Lee all dlc character all the spammy one's made me go nuts and break my kbd

[@AshishAroraa]

Lol. I broke mine a week ago (first time ever). Punched it in the middle. Such a good keyboard. :'(

[@jmc2830]

some games are for fun, and others are for sport. it's the same for physical games. tekken is a game that falls under the latter, if you think about it in those terms it doesn't seem "too hard". when you first pick up a basketball do you expect to be able to dunk it or throw 3 pointers? no, that's ridiculous, but the skill and practice required to do those things is what makes it so entertaining to watch and fulfilling to do yourself. it gives it tangible value because we all understand the difficulty to get to the top levels. so many games are built for everyone, basically all of them. truly competitive games, that don't hamstring their top players with each new iteration are basically nil, tekken may be the only one that respects your time enough not to invalidate your efforts by making drastic changes with each entry to try give new and casual players an edge. if people don't have the time to invest into tekken, play something else.. this "everything should be for everyone" attitude is so unrealistic and tone deaf i can hardly believe it. you can't make something for everyone it's impossible. you always end up forsaking one group for the sake of another. allowing many different games aimed at many different people leads to variety which is always a good thing. i hope they put in features that make training your ability to play the game easier, maybe make a mode that locks competitive players out after starting ranked but i will be a little disappointed if they go any further then that. as i said, pretty much every game is made for "everyone" which basically means made for casual gamers. why is it so hard to allow one game to exist that is for the people who crave competition and accomplishment in their gaming. it just seems selfish considering how little that type of gamer get's, while the other side get's so much in terms of gaming i.p specifically aimed at them. leave tekken alone. let it be what it always has been. you can't please everyone, trying just ensures that you wont please anyone. for those using the "accessibility" arguement.. i wonder if you've ever looked at the people who generate these arguments before you adopt it. because it is such a misused term, from what i see it's a bunch of dickheads who have their ego bruised by a "hard game" then start using things like the disabilities of others to force game dev's to lower the skill requirement in their games purely for themselves. it's disgusting, using someone else's disability as a weapon to get your way... i've personally seen so many people with unbelievable physical and mental disabilities master tekken and other "hard core" games better then i ever could, and it's never these people screaming for a change.. from what i see they love proving to the world that they can do what we can if they have the inclination and drive to do so. it's always some abled body loser that is taking advantage of their situation to bully others into getting their way, and rarely ever a person that actually struggles with these problems.

[@chillarn7]

No, don't change anything. We don't need another baby fighter

[@chillarn7]

@@Luminethereploid It is not about making the backdash easier, it's about the concept of lowering the difficulty of the game in order to appeal to a wider audience. All these small changes to make it easier will add up over time. You shouldn't change the design of a game with such a strong legacy fan base like Tekken in order to be more appealing to casuals that will quit in 1-2 months anyways. Accessibility is one of the main reasons Street Fighter 5 is heavily criticized, the game even managed to kill the entire Swedish SF community. If you want an easy game, there's other options out there.

[@cadturt9295]

honestly all tekken needs is an improved tutorial for everything that could possibly happen, then a character specific tutorial for people looking to main certain characters

[@rattocaster_fgc3186]

Honestly the hardest part about tekken to me is blocking Its so hard to block in general considering a lot of mixups are 50/50s But then there's all the strings that have sneaky lows in them It would be easier to learn to block if there weren't as many characters It's pain:')

[@arsonne]

I pretty much gave up on Tekken after almost a year. I want to PLAY THE GAME and get better. Tekken is not like that. In order to compete at a tournament level, and I have a very high level local competition, it requires insane work. I have to spend what, like, 4 or 5 hours of training mode against a character, then get 100-0d by someone good with that character, go back to the lab and then play that matchup some more... And repeat for 40 FUCKING CHARACTERS. It's just too much for someone who works 50 hours a week and has other things going on in life. If you don't put in the hours and hours of homework in Tekken, you can't even begin to have fun or learn. you'll just get washed over and over.

[@arsonne]

@Ken Yes. It's not that hard. I work 24 hr shifts twice a week which usually always bleed over to being 50 hours a week.

[@yaki6915]

I likethe complexity, it makes me want to learn maybe the hard way but it is very rewarding

[@tongpoo8985]

I'm a noob and I don't want KBD to be taken out. I like difficult movement mechanics like this that literally make the game feel better to play as you progress, it's like you're leveling up your stats in an rpg. I dont think having advanced movement mechanics hurts the new player experience. Yes they will have to play and work at it for a while if they want to compete at the top level, but they will have to do that regardless of KBD. I like having something to strive for. Tekken is already one of the most accessible fighting games, you can have loads of fun and do okay just mashing buttons like a madman (with certain characters). Maybe I'm biased because I play smash melee, a game renouned/infamous for it's difficult movement mechanics, but that's also the main feature which makes that game fun compared to other smash games.

[@tongpoo8985]

However I could see a compromise with the regular backdash being buffed a bit because it is complete trash right now

[@abisrizvi2621]

Brother i enjoyed listening to you but I picked up tkn because of the graphics(no-stylized) and the infinite no. of characters, held on because of how much there was to learn about them

[@knight_rayner4363]

If I were to add to the list: it's simply because of lack of balance and reward between characters (easier/harder characters with more/less time put into them).

[@christianhu8348]

Just want to say Ranchu won Tekken World Tour without knowing how to KBD... i'll let that sink here.

[@tekigami8169]

@Ken No it's not. Ranchu admitted he sucked at KBD. He won with Panda

[@UndefeatableKing]

I think he said he doesn't know how to side step well.

[@InboardLucas]

This is top tier content, super enjoyable. Strongly agree with removing characters. We don't need bears, 2d characters, gigas, or guest characters. That's a decent start. Heavily disagree with making kbd easier though. Having to execute it properly involves some risk of getting hit by a mid, since you have to press db to cancel. If you could just bb all day there would be no risk, which would remove a lot of the "when" aspect as well

[@umutyildirim9928]

Tekken doesn't need too many characters. In Street Fighter, character's personality doesn't matter too much, its special moves and frame data are important so that's why Street Fighter always needs new characters. But Tekken is a skill game and every character is good if player put effort. So in Tekken, character's personality and look is important. Tekken doesn't need too much characters, it need good quality characters. Like TMM said, better stories, better customisation, better win poses etc. and other things that give them "personality". So I don't think should be second USFIV (44 characters). I go with quality over quantity for Tekken.

[@melodichalo382]

God forbid making a game hard these days... Tbh i like games that are this way. It's one of the main reasons why i enjoy it soo much. Lowering the skillgap doesn't help tbh. Making games this way imo hurts them. I would not like to see tekken become simplified more than it already is and still this is a hard game. I enjoy the fact of saying i learned so much and that we have comed this far. Being able to accomplish something in 2 mins isn't fun and really is dissatisfying.

[@umutyildirim9928]

I can play half of the roster in Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition and it is boring. I can start playing a character atter 30 mins so I get bored easily and move to another character. I've been playing it more than a year and still couldn't choose a main. I tried Jin in Tekken and after all these trainings I feel like progress is like 1% 😂. That's makes Jin special for me, because of the time I spent with him, I don't play others. Maybe Devil Jin, because he is Jin too. 😊 And unlike SF, Tekken always keeps most of the roster and character always feels same with every game. So I have no worries about losing main, I know what characters will stay with the game. Compare all of the Tekken's rosters and you'll see always a similar roster. Seeing them develop is like being a parent of them and watching them grow. Tekken is special and "bloating" should exist, we can play different every game without changing our character.

[@melodichalo382]

@@umutyildirim9928 thing is size of the roster isn't making a difference. It's how people play the game and how everyone is different. There are so many variables in this game that makes it special. Taking out variables is lowering interest. If people aren't willing to learn a game then why lower something to their level? We get things like arcsys making 2d fighters easy. Dbfz and bb cross tag imo both suffer from this route. Instead of making it crazy fun and enjoyable to learn they made it easy and accessible to accommodate for the people who would find it fun just to hop on and play. This is not a good route to go down as it is really only hurting the player base

[@melodichalo382]

@@umutyildirim9928 i hope they maintain this difficulty in games. It is why i dropped 2d fighters

[@umutyildirim9928]

@@melodichalo382 That's the DFBZ video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYOTmZWbba2NoJI The moment is 1:00