Historian Tom Holland on Oppenheimer, Napoleon and why the world loves British history

Tom Holland, the popular historian who co-hosts the world-famous The Rest Is History podcast, sits down with The Telegraph’s Steven Edginton to discuss his new book on Rome, woke history and why British history is so popular among international audiences. Holland explains why Trump reminds him of Nero, and says attempts to teach moral lessons through history are a “fool's errand”. He continues, saying he doesn’t accept there are those on “the right side of history” or that the arc of history bends towards justice. The production of films such as Napoleon and Oppenheimer are a sign that audiences are still fascinated by history, says Holland. You can listen to the full interview on your podcast app by searching for “Off Script”.
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[@andyknuckles2903]

Tom Holland is a gold mine. His podcast with Dominic Sandbrook is often a highlight in my week.

[@GrumpaGladstone1809]

I looked it up, will give it a whirl, thanks!!! :)

[@robertgebruers9519]

It is THE best podcast.

[@vlndfee6481]

Learning constant new context and information. Better than any historic lessons on school.

[@samgoodway5244]

The podcast GOATs.

[@user-lp7wo7og4x]

I'll give his podcast a go pal

[@mithrandirthegrey7644]

I've always had a casual interest in history but Tom Holland for sure has made me much more interested in classical history than I ever used to be.

[@alanfox8928]

it is a shame for the sake of the interview that the interviewer was so poor, but Tom Holland fantastic to listen to as always.

[@trytwicelikemice3190]

His fixation on trying to bring it back to culture war issues in the middle was very weird...

[@johnhealy6494]

Absolutely

[@jamiearan]

Stephen was trying to get Tom to bite on right wing talking points, but I was impressed by Tom's ability to steer from them

[@billythedog-309]

@@trytwicelikemice3190 The fact that this is sponsored by the Daily Telegraph is purely coincidental.

[@agracier8656]

Absolutely riveting interview. So insightful with his modest speaking style. A pleasure to have listened to.

[@skp8748]

So disappointing he's a raging islamophobe.

[@ssotkow]

Didn't know what I expecting when I clicked this video... thought it was another Oppenheimer review, but totally engrossed in this riveting conversation that suddenly popped up from nowhere like a dream.

[@paulheydarian1281]

Don't get caught up in the latest HollyWeed Hype...Be an original thinker.

[@JeansiByxan]

I read Dominion when it came out and it blew me away. Anything Tom Holland writes now I’ll read. His ability to pivot from the present to the past is unparallelled.

[@darrenkaminsky7618]

Tom Holland is, of course, terrific and fascinating. He has to find his way around some of the interviewer's clunkier and more short-sighted questions, but he seems to have no problem doing this with grace, agility, and brilliance. The overall lesson is that history doesn't serve a single perspective, and the events and battles of the moment fade quickly. A telling moment was when the interviewer asked Holland whether he'd be able to get his Islam documentary made in today's political atmosphere, obviously under the impression that he wouldn't, and Holland having to remind him--or inform him--of the atmosphere around the subject of Islam in the post 9/11 and Iraq war period, which the interviewer obviously either didn't know about or hadn't bothered to research.

[@matthewstokes1608]

No… I think this young interviewer is singly the most outstanding interviewer of intellectual quality to have arisen on the western/global stage in years.

[@palatine7013]

@@matthewstokes1608 i disagree, he's fishing for controversial debate where one doesn't exist. Another useless attempt at stirring the societal pot!

[@StumpyVandal]

The interviewer was constantly trying to draw Tom into the debate on wokism and political correctness stifling all forms of expression. The right wing newspapers in the US and UK care about little else right now. It’s ridiculous given the actual problems facing society.

[@matthewstokes1608]

@@StumpyVandal Tom Holland was asked provocative (not leading) questions by a perfectly reasoned and intellectual young man doing a far better job than those we typically see.

[@darrenkaminsky7618]

@@StumpyVandal Yes, watching again that's what the interviewer is trying to do. He's subtler than some, but it's still a bit scary -- not everything can or should connect to "wokeism" or the political right's bizarre cultural obsessions.

[@abcav297]

Never expected Spider-Man 4 to be a single room arthouse movie with only two characters and mostly dialogue. Bravo Marvel!

[@ceceliategdirb7371]

My thoughts exactly

[@fredlewis6527]

Bloody hell that presenter had an agenda

[@akjdhajkdjhaghjkadh9804]

and what agenda would that be?

[@localfox1000]

Nice to see the Telegraph give a platform to an elite sportsman

[@andrewturner3580]

Great Interview !

[@jamieguthrie1760]

Nice to drop in a few buzzwords of the moment using Oppenheimer in the title, but this interview was much more about the Roman Empire and how it relates and has influenced the modern West of today! Fascinating interview btw!

[@arthurw8054]

Yeah, the title might be a bit misleading, but if it's Tom Holland it's going to be superb, period.

[@Metta33]

Very enjoyable to watch. Good stuff.

[@samurai_wack]

I had no interest in history until I discovered The Rest is History. I read Persian Fire a couple of months ago and found it utterly fascinating!

[@EerieV23]

The rest of his books are just as riveting. I highly recommend them.

[@samurai_wack]

Rubicon is next on my list!@@EerieV23

[@scottbuchanan9426]

One figure Tom Holland didn't mention when discussing Britain's global cultural-historical influence is probably the biggest one of all: William Shakespeare.

[@themsmloveswar3985]

Not sure. I reckon Shelley, Dickens, had a larger impact. And possibly Orwel, and Huxley.

[@scottbuchanan9426]

@@Mickyway Don't think so.

[@profiler4772]

Impressive teacher! His own enthusiasm is so fluently transferred to and captured by the listener.

[@jonhelmer8591]

Great, I've found Tom's podcast on the iplayer! 46 hours of fun.

[@SynapseDriven]

Holland is genius and a very generous person because that interviewer is just daft.

[@starcapture3040]

he is biased

[@Joe-og6br]

As it went along I could sense a growing distain towards the interviewer.

[@nathanngumi8467]

Great discussion!

[@samuelpepys5350]

Tom Holland is always great value but the title of this video needs fixing, it's a 47-minute interview and they spend all of 3 minutes discussing Oppenheimer, Napoleon and British history!

[@supertuscans9512]

He’s brilliant to listen to. He’s actually made me review the way I see the Roman Empire and the influence of the Christian ethos on society ( for better and worse) even when it’s not overt, and in many ways has transgressed from being a religion to a subconscious philosophy. Fascinating!

[@dulls8475]

@@supertuscans9512 With Christianity mocked we are already on the way down.

[@ozzell]

I'm fascinated by this idea of christendom being inherently destabilizing and a potential cause for a lot of social progress and post-christian ideologies.

[@dulls8475]

It gave us the stability for social progress and post-christian ideologies.

[@patrickquinlan3056]

Great interview, although I had to wait 40 minutes for a mention of Oppenheimer, Napoleon or British history. Never mind, I love listening to Tom.

[@jamesbailey5008]

Hooked on the rest is history, love it

[@mcpanorama]

Life and Leisure in Ancient Rome by Balsdon, which came out in the 1960s, is still worth reading.

[@ahothabeth]

It is a joy to listen to Tom Holland; Steven Edginton not so much.

[@TurnCoatTechie]

Outstanding views from Tom Holland that I also share ❤

[@bengeorge894]

So in a parallel universe Spiderman is a middle aged British historian

[@JonniePolyester]

Just heard Free Thinking episode on Julian The Apostate with Tom …very good.

[@thomasmitchell7645]

British-vetted scientists played a key role in the development of the Soviet atom bomb.

[@bj6515]

But it was an American who provided Russia with the blueprints then got prison for it.

[@paulthomas-hh2kv]

Work on atomic bomb was non secret in Uk although Radar was for some reason. There was a Russian scientist working on the development in UK. Very interesting interview with Mark Oliphant with names and dates

[@janecote]

May I just say, I am very impressed by how such a young man can sound so pompous already

[@gmk2222]

Anyone got a link to his brothers podcast, I found a James holland, is that him? Thanks

[@ton1]

Didn't know Tom Holland was a historian in his free time in between Spiderman movies.

[@paulthomas-hh2kv]

Very interesting interview with Mark Oliphant about his career working with Ernest Rutherford

[@deanedge5988]

Best interview post Pax - most revealing; least formulaic. Very cunning in its oh so polite bowling.

[@Clipgatherer]

37:45 Britain may not be "Greece to America's Rome"; rather, as someone observed, Britain is Alfred the butler to America's Batman. They provide good advice and experience.

[@saattlebrutaz]

And Batman is an imaginary figure.

[@paullewis2413]

Love Tom Holland’s book “Persian Fire”. There’s so much to digest in this comprehensive survey of a pivotal time in European/Asian history.

[@imchrisme5514]

I wish I were so bright, interesting, intellectual & articulate.

[@akjdhajkdjhaghjkadh9804]

very interesting man

[@otuamab]

What is the Best book on Trajan?

[@Ozgipsy]

Wow. That was a sharp observation.

[@user-pt7ip2yz9d]

Oh of course Britain is our Greece here in the Colonies. It wasn't until Spinal Tap that we finally woke up to the fact than not everyone with a British accent is a genius.

[@corinaijac4381]

Had the best summer ever. Unbelieveble tears, heat, but...summer. Found my lost family, a bit shuttered, still alive, still love them. I forgive, if it does matter to him, to Graham from Fund Daniel for what is done. Today he is still alive. Wish him the best he can get by his own. Corina Miriam Georgeta IJAC autumn, 2023

[@AndyJarman]

How extraordinary to assert the British have had minimal influence on the USA.

[@judithjohnson5055]

He was speaking of the present rather than the past

[@dougiemarks9852]

That’s my thinking about the Roman Empire done for the day

[@benmclaren]

Tom is brilliant but this interviewer asking the most loaded questions my god!

[@adventussaxonum448]

It's like watching the BBC or Sky, but from the other direction.😅

[@matthewstokes1608]

@@adventussaxonum448 which is why it is superb

[@adventussaxonum448]

Makes a nice change.😅

[@McNeish]

Love Tom Holland and been reading his books for the last 20 years but wish he’d comb his hair.

[@UncriticalRaceTheory]

some historians argue that this lack of empire that could control western europe is what made western europe so powerful, as they were constantly in competition with itself.

[@jonathanphillips5514]

Explains why we are all knackered

[@Joseph-ax999]

I'm amazed at the stability of the empire in spite of the many assassinations.

[@DanforthFrance]

Interviewer is a drip.

[@DaboooogA]

Peter Parker on fire as always

[@RANDALLBRIGGS]

The interviewer seems to be constantly grinding an axe.

[@CirclingDuck]

Loved him in Spiderman

[@flambr]

his oddyssey is so readable like he's genuinely one of the best classics writers of our time

[@leisti]

This interviewer is digging quite hard to get an anti-wokeness quote.

[@apocalypseblues3897]

we gotta do something about that haircut man

[@apocalypseblues3897]

dude what is going on with this interviewer? 😮

[@DiamondMind]

Love Tom

[@markcarey67]

It might just be the camera angle but Tom looks like a giant next to Steven

[@hatomi_j4920]

And he was a great Spiderman as well

[@williambranch4283]

Pop American history was the Western, and died in 1970. We got a WWII resurgence same as GB.

[@kitl8081]

Tom Holland is great! I don’t know what this interviewer is doing though, he’s a mess!

[@Historian212]

Clickbait alert: there’s almost nothing in this video about the new films about Oppenheimer and Napoleon.

[@DavosTheDegen]

Tom Holland looks a bit different from the last spiderman movie

[@ssotkow]

Accumulating cobwebs, not shooting spidey webs

[@fhujf]

This is a multiverse version of Tom Holland.

[@corinaijac4381]

saw many at the local*

[@corinaijac4381]

Tomorrow is wednesday, my favorite day. So it's Freitag, the day I was born. Corina

[@martinaaron609]

Hilarious - like watching Slavoj Žižek be interviewed by Harry Enfield's Tim Nice-But-Dim. Comforting and encouraging that in 2023 this is the calibre of young person that The Telegraph can manage to find. But some fascinating insight from Tom - especially r.e. the concept of "pax".

[@boonedockjourneyman7979]

Genius

[@gerarddearie-zd2gb]

Steven's lack of self-awareness when he asks about contemporary historians insisting that we must see history through culture was, is something to behold.

[@corinaijac4381]

Good morning. Bună dimineața. Corina Ijac

[@corinaijac4381]

Often I wondered, how they managed to do it. Bucarest, an area of a theseplaces person with sheeps, Bucur (joy), like David, like others-Odysseus f.ex., is on the same hourlongitude like Cairo. The Delta of the Nile was displaced, but just imagine... Let's say, they agreed to meet for a tea, on see, not at him, not at her. Being in time, have good weather and pleasant ships with lovely friends around, how, when he left it was 4 p.m. , when she left it was the same 4 p.m., to be at 5 o clock was it at the middle?, is it possible?, there is no such thing allways wondered, they had the funny world and managed to drink together a tea. Stunning! All my love! Corina Miriam Georgeta IJAC after 2000 years...

[@Holoether]

Lovely! “Christendom was the peak theme….200 years ago”

[@corinaijac4381]

,,I saw your face in crowded place..." , ,,how deep is" the...water. Corina

[@blancaijuarez5423]

Hi

[@philipmartin5757]

Love the ironic 'simple Jack' hairstyle...

[@supertuscans9512]

Too short!

[@corinaijac4381]

Just five minutes before, left a comment to an interview to some ambassad in bucarest from Ishrael. It was, the comment, erased because of the content. It wasn't offending, they didn't love the content. Wow! How could this happen? Corina Ijac 6 oct 2023/7 oct.

[@davekeith576]

Disruptive loud advertising interference.?

[@bronson4574]

I predict hundreds of jokes with his name

[@Gorbyrev]

With great power comes great responsibility.

[@VaughanMcCue]

@@Gorbyrev With great power comes not-so-great electricity bills.

[@frankwitte1022]

This interviewer was really trying so hard to shoehorn in Telegraph-talking-points🤣

[@trytwicelikemice3190]

Shame the interviewer has no idea how to read a vibe and had this weird insistance on pushing culture wars issues... still, excellent work by Tom Holland, respectfully navigating that to say something interesting despite the questions!

[@asephusnimubarok4691]

Good

[@jayguerero47]

Steven Edginton will be a British journalism icon, if not a legend. Stay humble, upright, and excellent, young man.

[@vlndfee6481]

Shalom means peace in Hebrew Is very differnent from Rome pax. Shalom start with in the heart by Jesus spirit. Pax is military ruling order.

[@robertburke2246]

His documentary on Islam was interesting.

[@humongousfungus8052]

Tom Holland is masterful as always. The guy from the Telegraph is far too tense and uptight in comparison and comes across like an overzealous schoolboy. He needs to relax his sphincter a bit before situations like this. 😉

[@umbertotoni3021]

The World Loves British History because it ia told, is continuous without to be linear.

[@benmclaren]

that first question was a bit ill informed lol

[@corinaijac4381]

*

[@chrisdickens4268]

Tom hollad is great, the chatbot reading the bullet points is a bit odd...

[@williambranch4283]

Non-Romans hated the Romans. Non-Christians hated the Christians. Those other people need to get over it!

[@galaxyn3214]

Mike Pence physically resembles Emperor Claudius.

[@danielschaeffer1294]

Whenever has has to defend Trump - which is all the time - he starts stammering worse than Biden.

[@galaxyn3214]

@@danielschaeffer1294 Pence does what does out of a reluctant sense of patrician honor.

[@artofmusic303]

Mr. Holland came very close to saying the concept of justice cannot exist outside the framework of Christianity. Surely he doesn''t believe that.

[@belinthehunter7178]

💖💖💖🥰🥰

[@mcpanorama]

Absolutely right about Christianity.

[@brendancorrigan]

Whatever about the end of the West's golden age, it's fair to say peak *freedom* was reached in the late 1990s/early 2000s, kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnXao3WIjcqWrNU.

[@robertholmes12]

Steven is on it again!

[@corinaijac4381]

Good morning, Dear Amon, mi-e foarte greu. Ceea ce am știut, am declarat. Poate ne mai întâlnim, cândva, într-un alt timp. Am știut că va fi greu dar am mers drumul până la capăt. ,,Călinescu" și-a falsificat actul de naștere, în ,,Enigma Otiliei" nimeni nu o mai întâlnește pe Otilia iar enigma ei, într-o casă plină de mătuși, e feminitatea. Nu știu să-mi iau rămas bun. Corina

[@user-ib9ky2jo9h]

nice that hes schooling edginton straight out of the gate lol. really dumb questions. i wonder what nepotism got that specimen where he is

[@corinaijac4381]

We don't live in the past, even if the seaside was left to the nature.

[@boguslawagumuchian2427]

How is America a cultural superpower ? What is their culture ?

[@tyronebiggums8660]

People around the world are influenced by American movies, television, music, innovations

[@DavidSaundersPosts]

American culture is a huge stew, where cooks from all over the world throw their bits into the pot. What comes out is not always great, but is creative and it sells.

[@Historian212]

Why does he keep referring to certain ancient writers as impecunious? What’s he implying by calling attention to that?