The Stagnation of 3D Sonic Gameplay

[@runningwithscissors8612]

20:20 “Sonic’s long forgotten ability to curl into a ball” hit me like a ton of bricks

[@user-vi4xy1jw7e]

Lol why

[@andersonsansonowski5644]

SEGA brought it back for frontiers though

[@snakey888]

@@andersonsansonowski5644 But without the functionality that made it fun and useful.

[@BIackingOut]

​@@snakey888Spindash in Frontiers is insanely useful

[@snakey888]

@@BIackingOut Thing is, it functions more like boost than proper spindash and roll

[@nothydrossity]

Someone on Twitter said "Sonic is the 'Potential Man' of gaming" and I think that's the best way to sum up this franchise.

[@hype5456]

I think that has to be the last thing to describe the series. Because I don't think people realize the implications

[@KallenGate]

They call him 007, 0 consistency 0 decent gimmicks 7 cases of over-priced shitty games

[@existential_narwal9257]

No way! I said that!

[@Eminster]

@@KallenGate what is this comment from? 2015?

[@nothydrossity]

@@Eminster I don't know, it's still correct. Let me name some. 1. Sonic 06 (Why is this game 5 dollars when I could just download P06 for free and get an infinitely better experience??) 2. Sonic Unleashed (Why is this game 15 dollars when I could just download Unleashed Project for free and get an infinitely better experience??) 3. Sonic 4 (Why are these games 20 dollars combined when I could just buy Sonic Mania and get an infinitely better experience??) 4. Sonic Lost World (Why is this game 30 dollars on Steam when I could just play Super Mario Galaxy and get an infinitely better experience??) 5. Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric (If only SEGA never made that deal with Nintendo...) 6. Sonic Forces (Why is this game 40 dollars on Steam when I could just buy Sonic Generations and get an infinitely better experience??) 7. Team Sonic Racing (Why is this game 40 dollars on Steam when I could just buy Racing Transformed and get an infinitely better experience??) 8. Sonic Colors Ultimate (Why is this game 40 dollars when I could just play base Sonic Colors and get an infinitely better experience??) 9. Sonic Origins (Why is this game 60 dollars when I could just download the decomps + 3 A.I.R for free and get an infinitely better experience??) 10. Sonic Frontiers (Why is this game 60 dollars when I could just download Sonic Utopia and get an infinitely better experience??) 11. Sonic Superstars (Why is this game 60 dollars when I could just buy Sonic Mania and get an infinitely better experience??) 12. Sonic x Shadow Generations (Why is this game probably going to be 60 dollars when I could just buy base Sonic Generations and get practically the same experience??)

[@Davy0_0.2]

I don’t think Sonic’s gameplay being different to his classic counterpart is inherently a bad thing, but I do agree that if changes are made then they should be just as good if not better than the original gameplay style. Can’t really call it an evolution if it’s worse than the original

[@arcaniumdragon2444]

They should take lessons from sonic team Jr. I think srb2 is peak 3d sonic, and it's not in its final form yet apparently

[@epicness877]

Idk this comes off somewhat as black and white thinking as the games and their designs are clearly going for different things. Some do have poor core control, though I wouldn't say the systems or movesets can generally be compared in the sense of "we lost this, so it's worse". As you noted, the different titles mechanics lend and tend towards different focuses, which also isnt inherently a bad thing (though it can come off as squeamish of itself). The execution and level design quality of course vary and call for critique, but realistically, an engaging game can be made out of many of their core concepts at least

[@snakey888]

@@epicness877 Some are more engaging than others.

[@epicness877]

@@snakey888 that really depends on the level design as how it caters to it, as momentum preservation mechanics can also work against the player or counterintuitively to the level design. More "binary" or more purely reaction time based things can be engaging as well, though in different ways and to different people's preferences. There is an issue of course in brand recognition there, but that is another issue entirely

[@snakey888]

@@epicness877 Sure, the reaction based stuff can be engaging as well, but on a more superficial level, which ultimately makes it less interesting and less engaging overall.

[@Harrinsain]

Sonic Adventure is in large part a product of creative compromises. Almost every game which followed Adventure seems to have forgotten this fact, instead simply treating it as the status quo to constantly reference, creating this cycle of stagnation.

[@HOTD108_]

I'd still argue Sonic Adventure 2 is just as good, if not better. That being said, during development that game was thought to be the final Sonic game since Sega knew their time making consoles was running out and there was no guarantee Sonic could continue as a outside of being a console mascot for Sega, and so SA2 was created under a very "one last hurrah" mindset. In my view it's not until after SA2, when Sonic Team become so comfortable and complacent with the knowledge that Sonic COULD continue, that the pressure to nail how Sonic SHOULD continue evaporated and the series slowly lost more and more focus.

[@snakey888]

@@HOTD108_ Nah, sa2 was not just a whole lot worse, it just wasnt a good game, much less a good Sonic game.

[@Harrinsain]

@@HOTD108_ Not commenting on SA2's quality in saying this, but SA2 is still undoubtedly a product of this lineage. It looked at SA1 and DOUBLED DOWN on the divergences SA1 made from its predecessors, divergences which in SA1 were largely made as a product of compromises. SA2 ran with them as creative endeavors, for better or for worse. This would continue to this day

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@HOTD108_ To provide my thoughts on SA2, it really speaks volumes to me what Sonic Team's problem is when looking at how that game progressed from SA1 because in some ways? It did improve on things. Paring down the characters and gameplay styles was good, it cut out the fat and gave them more focus. Them making the lightspeed dash instant was good, the bounce attack was a cool idea and a good way of giving Sonic basically the bubble shield power just all the time. As for everything else? It really didn't do much. Sonic still has all the problems of SA1. His jumps still slow him down as does the homing attack. Attacking enemies still slows him down but now the levels are incredibly linear to accommodate it which means effectively that they've basically taken away even the good aspects of SA1's level design. The lightspeed dash and bounce attack were mapped to the same button as the somersault and spin dash which means there are instances where any moment you might want to use one of those moves, specifically the lightspeed dash, you'd actually risk failing and doing a move you never intended which could lead you to your death. They gimped the radar in the emerald hunting stages and force you to follow a specific order. In terms of the story and action within it certainly feels like a last hurrah but that hardly matters when the most important part, the gameplay, feels like it has barely been improved upon. At the risk of sounding like just another disgruntled classic fan? I'd like to point to by comparison how the shift from Sonic 1 to 2 went. Sonic's control received improvements. The speed cap of the original game has been removed, meaning you can reach some truly crazy speeds at any point you want. The spin dash was brought in as a means to quickly gain speed and also it serves as a great new attack you can use to barrel through enemies. The level design from Sonic 1 while good for the most part is a little bit inconsistent with a great entry level with Green Hill, an extremely slow slog in Marble, a good balance of platforming and speed in Spring Yard and then of course Labyrinth being... Labyrinth before we get Star Light and the fittingly dangerous Scrap Brain. Sonic 2 flipped that by retooling the levels to have a good balance of speed, platforming and exploration. You could blaze through the level if you wanted and it'd be exhilirating but nothing's stopping you from going slower to seek out either checkpoints or other goodies. It took the core fundamentals of the previous and built upon them while adding new features and content. SA2... changed one thing, added stuff but otherwise left things alone and gimped other features.

[@user-vi4xy1jw7e]

​@@snakey888Are you going to expound on that instead of just saying "game bad"?

[@Hard_Pretzel]

I was so worried this was going to be ANOTHER "3D Sonic is so stale and repetitive they do the same thing every time" while slamming all the times the series TRIES something different IE: "this game sucks because it's different"; while at the same time criticizing the series for never changing. When I saw you pull out clips of Lost World, Black Knight, Shadow, etc... I was so ready to click away. I'm glad I stuck around to actually see a rare, genuine, and level-headed, criticism of 3D Sonic, ALL 3D Sonic--not just the "bad" 3D Sonics. The slow bosses, homing attack absolutely demolishing your speed, automating as much as possible, and mechanics that are entirely antithetical to everything Sonic was--all things that very much apply to even the "good" 3D Sonic games. As an added bonus you're the only other person that realizes Lost World did the spindash just like frontiers, several years BEFORE frontiers; AND THAT SHADOW'S HOMING ATTACK IS BAD ON PURPOSE TO INCENTIVISE WEAPONS. I cannot overstate how much I appreciate someone that at least TRIES to judge the games equally instead of the typical "forces bad, so all mechanics from forces are also bad." Thank you for the video.

[@kieronix4071]

Frontiers spindash is lost worlds spindash, it's the same codebase.

[@Hard_Pretzel]

@@kieronix4071 I feel like people would be surprised how much is REALLY shared between games, especially when they go out of their way to create an entire engine... but they only seem to freak out when they see grass, brown squares, and hear heroes sound effects. 🤣

[@QuintaFeira12]

The joke here being that the Lost World spindash was still bad and stiff. We basically never had a true successor since Adventure.

[@Hard_Pretzel]

@@QuintaFeira12 if you truly think "press b over and over again with only one character, or two characters in Adventure 2" is a good application of the spindash, more power to ya. Adventure is literally never going anywhere. I have it on several platforms. Personally I prefer StH's take on it that made the spindash exclusively for short burst jumps and horizontal midair movement; not allowing it to be a crutch for people that can't build up speed without it. And overall, duct taping a bad spindash into a game where you can literally just press a boost button is kinda a niche use-case anyway fueled primarily by familiarity and nostalgia; which is not a bad thing btw. familiarity and nostalgia are literally the selling points of generations, which a lot of people love for some reason.

[@kindasomeviews]

Unfortunately most Sonic critic videos these days are more Based than ever before. We all need to see things with shades of gray than black and white. I have my disagreements in this video that seemingly propagates the Classic games as peak design, but even he at least recognizes how shit the Special Stages are. Giving Frontiers major points off for the overrated garbage it is will always be good too

[@embani]

I've never understood the reactivity towards pinning Sonic down to something that is clearly defined as if *that's* the thing limiting him as opposed to just being a hasty appropriation of whatever the industry is doing at that point in time, with consistency only being found in some ancient, compensatory design habits. Adventure is imperfect, but Since jumping to 3D it's the only time Sonic has, albeit messily, iterated on its pre-established fundamentals instead of either imitating, diluting or just straight up forgetting them. Being critical of all this doesn't have to mean everything after 1994 needs to go, it just means that there's alot about Sonic that seemingly continues to go underconsidered in favor of reacting to whatever market is currently in front of it, and it'll stay that way until the folks in charge undergo some true reflection on what it is Sonic actually brings to the table in the modern day.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

They think Sonic can be as flexible as any other franchise, genuinely believing that good creativity is an endless wellspring. They think that's what will validate their badass cartoon animal hero franchise. They're too blinded by that desire to get how a need for speed can itself be a restriction or how playing to that need can dig up some unique clever ideas despite that.

[@RubyofBlue]

I think the point of the 2D Sonic games' free-flowing nature is fairly overstated here - as every 2D game usually has half or more of their levels dedicated to a lot of stop-and-go, or boxed-in level design that doesn't really facilitate building and preserving a smooth flow. So I don't think it's really fair to put some 3D games on blast for doing the same thing of dedicating sections to different aspects of the gameplay (to a point). When it comes to the Adventure games, I don't think their divergences from the 2D design were ill-concieved or something born out of negligence, let alone bad for the games. The 2D Sonic games were fantastic for their creative uses of pinball physics and building/preserving momentum. They're also significantly easier to control at high speeds, naturally. So in a fast-paced 3D game, the player needs mechanics that allow them to orient themselves around their environment. 'Halting' your forward movement, and giving you hang-time turns hitting objects like enemies into a tool the player can use to 'anchor' themselves to more treacherous surroundings before proceeding. Likewise, the dash-panels before 90 degree slopes and springs thrust you high into the air, giving you a wide overview of the immediate incoming area. Even the light-speed dash can be used to both correct your movement trajectory, but also build and maintain speed. SA1/2 are rooted in letting the player bask in the sheer amount of control they have in their movement, which not only addresses the inherent challenges that come with 3D, but uses them to its advantage. I think this gameplay change - prioritizing predictable and simple avenues of controlling your character - creates better gameplay in a 3D context (particularly at the time), than adapting ALL of the 2D mechanics faithfully would have. As for the loops, while I would love to see a crack at making truly interactive loops work in 3D, I can't fault them for going with what they did - in automating them and taking control of the camera to let you see the action. I have a very hard time imagining them to fundamentally feel good, to prevent them from being extremely disorienting and nauseating. And I suspect the entire purpose of loops conveying and rewarding the games' physics systems, and giving off a spectacle, would be completely buried by locking the camera close behind the player by necessity for smooth control. The streamlined/linear levels are largely a product of 3D spaces being harder and more time consuming to build. But it must be said that this is another restriction they used to their advantage, resulting in the birth of the series' now-staple ranking system. The scoring system had always been almost completely superfluous to the gameplay of the 2D games - and in my opinion actually detracted in how harsh they were. However SA2 had finally iterated and refined the entire scoring system to be much more fair, directly feed into the gameplay, give you an actual rank at the end, and instill a rewarding feeling for mastery, turning its streamlined levels focusing on action and speed above all else, into its own strength. The focus on more grounded environments is likely a result of their experimentation with the classic art style in 3D, as with beta Windy Valley. In 2D, geometric shapes and bright, highly saturated colors can comprise a significantly more appealing aesthetic than it can in 3D, which by its nature is much closer to real life. As such, the stark shapes and saturated colors end up looking much more garish the closer to real life you get. Going from Beta to Final Windy Valley, you can see how the more nuanced, contrasting colors with use of recognizably grounded texture detail can better aid depth perception in a detailed 3D space. All this goes to say, the Adventure games' design is faithful in a lot of ways, but for many parts which don't adapt the 2D mechanics accurately, there's likely a reason for it born out of a ton of logistical factors that can't be so easily brute-forced for the sake of being faithful. What works best for a game in 2D doesn't always work the same for 3D. That said, I'd still love to see a future Adventure-style game that can adapt many more of the 2D games' nuances, cuz there definitely is a lot of potential there.

[@crimsongoldeagle8868]

Dedicating sections to different aspects besides speed is completely fine. I don't think anyone has much of a problem with that as long as said sections are fun. The problem 3D Sonic had is that many of its base mechanics were things that ruined the free-flowing nature. As for SA1/2, I think it's important to judge them on the games they are rather than the limitations that forced them to be that way. Personally, while I did enjoy SA2 when I was younger, going back to it now after experiencing many more games, I find myself seriously struggling to enjoy it at at all. Firstly, as for the linear level designs, I don't think it's fair to use the ranking system as an excuse for the super linear levels. The ranking system has nothing to do with any of that. Really, I'd say the linear levels caused a lot more harm than you'd think. Due to the levels being linear, we run into the issue that sonic is an extremely fast character in an extremely compact environment. This means that he's going to need a lot of ways to stay on track in order to not constantly fly off in some direction or hit walls. So... We got ways to stay on track. We got automated springs, we got automated loops, we got automated curves, we got automated dash, we got automated roll, we got- Well... You get the point. I think bigger more open levels could allow sonic to have much more free-flowing and natural movement, without anywhere near as much automation. Also, as a little note I'm including because it annoyed me so much when going back to the game: I hate how often SA2 puts enemies infront of things you have to roll under, or right next to rails you need to get on. It often leads to you being almost forced to completely destroy your speed by taking out the enemy first, as otherwise your homing attack will, without fail, go BACKWARDS just to destroy the enemy, when what you really want to do is just roll under the thing, or dash onto the rail. It's such insanely bad level design, and it's hard to imagine why such enemy placement was allowed.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@crimsongoldeagle8868If you don't mind me jumping in, I thought I'd also throw in a little quibble about the ranking system. It doesn't really encourage the person to get better or rewards them for higher mastery. It's Sonic Team tapping into a problem they keep running into which is artificially increasing game time by locking content behind these higher ranks meaning if you're not good enough at the game, you're not gonna see all the content it has to offer. Now sure the reward from SA2 is just Green Hill Zone and mostly content for the multiplayer in Battle but it means there isn't really this vibe that the game's encouraging you the find your own way and take things at your own pace, unlike the classics and SA1 which thanks to the lack of ranking systems do encourage experimentation and exploration. Hell I think one of the best implementations of this is in Sonic Mania where you have a "Cool" ranking in the score tally that basically just determines how often you got hit while trying to complete the level. It's a small thing but because it doesn't contribute to unlocking anything, perfecting the levels comes down to the player enjoying the game enough and the prospect to keep working at it.

[@minty6623]

@@crimsongoldeagle8868 telekinesticman did say that when making the stagnation 3D sonic vid, he approached the topic of the lost translation in the perspective of, imagine if one of the fans from the 90s were to be approached with any of the 3D sonic games, he knows about what makes Sonic, "Sonic", the game, the series, the franchise, and also what feels like Sonic, and has mastered the levels, the mechanics, how would he feel about what the 3D games have become that might become acceptable

[@Darkghostwind]

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 Sonic was never about exploration

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@Darkghostwind He was. Speed was the main purpose of his character but the classics were not designed solely around high speeds. The level design was also made to encourage exploration and for platforming. That's what made playing Sonic Adventure 1's stages in part so good because yes you can go fast and it's exhilarating finding the fastest ways to the goal but you could also look around the areas and find monitors with extra lives and rings, a shield you may not have realized was there as well as just new segments of the level you might not have been aware of. To say it never was about exploration to me is to look Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and even Sonic Adventure dead in the eyes and say "You know what? You don't count.".

[@Pariah6950]

Thanks for the shoutout! Excellent watch. Great points all around. Probably your best video yet. I would make an argument that Sonic games are not just their physics. While that important aspect of the series has been lost, others haven't. Almost every Sonic game retains the emphasis on speedrunning and the multi-route, tiered level design that encourages replay value and rewards better players with faster clear times. And I think that's almost as important to Sonic games as the physics. So at least some of the identity is still there. But that's my issue with most Sonic stuff these days. Looking for the glimpses of Sonic I can find in "Sonic". And most of the time these days, I find that in fan works or Sonic-inspired things. Which I'll take, Sonic Breeze looks awesome. But it would be nice if one day we could see Sonic again, officially. I would also say that there is definitely some real value to the games themselves in having a greater focus on story. It adds context to what you're doing that makes the whole experience more engaging and memorable. In Green Forest in SA2, you're trying to get off Prison Island before it explodes. In Mirage Saloon in Mania, you're... playing a level in a video game.

[@telekinesticman]

Oh yeah totally. I have no issue with the narrative stuff if it's actually worthwhile. My point was more about the pace of the cutscenes dragging down the game. Integrating cutscenes and gameplay together like your example in SA2 is much better (although I still wish the actual story itself was better, too).

[@sonic5993]

I think a big problem is that as the focus on narrative became more prominent, it became more and more disconnected from the gameplay to the point where the two barely interconnected. This leads to the classic case of ludonarrative dissonance. It's to the point where Frontiers starts hapzardly explaining all of the gameplay quirks in a completely clunky way entirely through exposition.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

@@sonic5993It even explained the pop-in of the techno-looking floating stuff in the overworld. Which I already guessed was going to be an actual story thing because I actually acquaint myself with non-Sonic stuff as well, AND I'm "old", so all that Cyber Space stuff combined with Sega's Sonic's infatuation with meta just SCREAMED "Superman 64" to me. Though, ironically, Forces of all games was CONSTANTLY telling its story during and through gameplay on top of all the cutscenes, but it's too trash of a story told too obnoxiously to work. They still need to (re)find the ideal medium.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

I'd say it's the level design that's more important, though the physics are still a vital vehicle to that. Those AND having multiple speedster characters-the literal vehicles tackling the levels via those physics-are what make navigation, exploration and spredrunning in Sonic so rich. As for story, it's important for establishing Sonic's world and what the series is fully about in terms of both entertainment and morality. Caelum complained Adventure 1's take on the games' world was "fantastical but not very surreal", but too surreal means too abstract and meaningless. I think the Advance games as a whole hit the sweet spot for how Sonic's world should be, being decently overseen by Yuji Naka unlike with the set-top Sonics of that time that saw him and Takashi Iizuka jockeying for dominance.

[@theholygamer969]

It's not just better speedrun times. It's player expression. It's maintaining a flow of movement that COULD just be a casual run of a level, but because of the player controller's potential for higher speeds, it can feel like a COMFORTABLE speedrun where you're not stressing yourself and sweating over the controller. That kind of approach is universally appealing, from the new beginners just starting out with Sonic, to the seasoned pros who have already mastered the physics and increased the height of their own skill ceiling.

[@teneesh3376]

The homing attack really could have been improved. Fans have shown that it's better for enemies to basically be trampolines. With the homing attack keeping your momentum. Heck, even the balloons in generations is more fun than the enemies

[@telekinesticman]

Exactly! That's what I'm saying about why would you even bother engaging with all the enemies/springs/items when all they do is break your flow? Sure, there's skill in strategically avoiding specific obstacles, but like, wouldn't it be so much more fun if these things were *tools* like they were in 2D? I really hope people pay attention to one of my points there - how are these games actually *better* by *not* including these features? How would 3D Sonic be *worse* by implementing momentum physics, y'know?

[@M4Dbrat]

There's a mod for SA2 that just gives you extra air control after a homing attack. It's not anything fancy/depthful like preserving momentum, just higher acceleration so that you can move properly and it's such a MASSIVE improvement to the basic game feel. Meanwhile Sonic Frontiers does something to the homing attack no other Sonic game ever did... It pushes you backwards. Which is just salt to the injury that is the massive hitstop when the enemy is destroyed

[@sonicheroes]

Do you have the name of that mod? Sounds fun

[@M4Dbrat]

@@sonicheroes Speed Character Momentum Tweaks on GameBanana

[@kindasomeviews]

I've always wanted a lock-on button for the homing attack to give more control to players (especially for new players that dont know how much height is needed to land it), but yes bouncing off of enemies while keeping momentum is important too

[@TheMrPasquale]

Your video essays continue to be thought provoking and worth listening to. Game design is always a complex, yet engaging topic. I wish more fans remembered to keep an open mind and were better at listening to genuinely nuanced criticism, no matter the difference in opinion. I think you bring up a lot of interesting points and valid comparisons to the classics. There’s definitely certain areas where I disagree because I tend to prefer most 3D games over 2D, but the overall message of your video is one I completely agree with.

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

thank you i prefer 3d or 2d i also support shadow 2005 game

[@33pandagamer]

I like the semi-realistic graphics, I like the contrast between realistic-looking cities and non-sensical layouts. Like how Radical Highway has unrealistic loops and twists and holes in the road, but has realistic road textures. Also, I think the aesthetic of Shadow The Hedgehog's game is really nice.

[@40kkidlock18]

06 did this too

[@beruanga]

erm okay?

[@hypVideo]

?yako mre

[@BeanZ_Burnt]

@@hypVideo Yours is here?

[@LOKIPERROISCOOL]

Some guy just said “some guy just said, “some guy just said, “erm ok?”

[@internetguy08]

A very interesting position on what 3d sonic should be. I don't fully agree personally as I fully enjoy most of the 3d sonic games, even more so than a lot of the classics, but seeing sonic team attempt what you're asking for isn't something I'd be adverse to seeing.

[@mikoaj5002]

❤

[@AzoosYT]

Longtime Sonic forum crawler, here. I've studied these games for years, and I don't disagree with a lot of your points (I am extremely critical of most of the 3D Sonics) but I definitely think you're giving the Sonic Adventure games (especially SA1) a bad rap. I feel like Sonic fans in general get kind of caught up on trying to "translate classic Sonic into 3D" and calling foul when it parted ways with it, without realizing maybe some of the decisions were deliberate, or even beneficial, to good play. For starters, the speed lost from hitting springs or attacking enemies with a Homing Attack. Losing most if not all of your forward speed may seem like an antithesis to what people think classic Sonic is about, but I think it's largely for control reasons, not only for the player but for the game designer. Giving Sonic that much speed in an instant was no issue in a 2D game where the only directions to go were up, down, left or right; and walls and ceilings could easily slot Sonic into place, wherever the level designers needed Sonic to go. But in 3D, you can go around or through nearly anything. If you let Sonic retain all of that speed and height, Sonic has much more likeliness to become unruly to control and/or miss his landings, as well as much more capable for the level design to become fully trivialized. And that latter point doesn't sound like a bad thing, at first. But I think the ability to bend a game to your will should depend on how much you've learned. If it's as easy to twist as "press A in the air at a target" or "touch this spring" that's not depth, that's just a busted system. Games need rules, and you should need skill to be able to break them. If you wanted to make a good point for keeping the inertia-bounce, I'd say make it a part of a normal jump. Jumping on enemies in 3D is hard and that's why the Homing Attack exists in the first place. If we went the path of nuanced design, you could choose to jump on an enemy, sacrificing accuracy for speed/height, while the Homing Attack sacrifices speed/height for accuracy. Make the player choose on a moment-to-moment basis what they want. Another point I see is talking about linear design or Sonic's tendency to keep to streamlined paths. While I do think 3D Sonic could afford to open up and try more shortcuts/alternate routes, I think this too was deliberate and smart. Note SA1 & 2 were designed for the Dreamcast, a system without a right analog stick. There was no good way to manage or turn cameras, so it's not like they could accomodate for that in these games. But even if they did, 3D platformers (especially ones from the 5th and early 6th gen) do not account for camera movement very much. This may not be seen as a huge problem until it's realized that you're going to need to move the camera A LOT more in Sonic than other games when moving in all directions. Sonic is a character that can not only move on ground and basic slopes, but also on walls, on ceilings, on curvatures of all kinds at 360 degrees. Camera control to follow that would need to be extremely complex (something I wouldn't ask from developers of early 3D games in 1998-2001), and even when figured out would require a lot of a player's own fine tuning. Proof of this is in 3D Sonic fan games; most of them require you to maneuver the position of the camera more than even basic functions like jumping or spinning. And us Sonic fans may be able to accustom to that with our experience, but normies and less hardcore fans aren't going to have our seasoned palette and will find that widely tedious. And I know, Sonic in the 2D games is known for traveling on walls and ceilings, but again, it was in 2D, where the boundaries of what that meant were very easy to define and the camera simply only had to follow panning motions in 8 directions. The possibilities of where Sonic can go and how he interacts with the environment complicate the camera system in both how it must operate on it's own and how you must interact with it by a hundred-fold, and I think that's why a lot of Sonic gameplay in 3D sticks to more linear stage design. Justifiably so too; I think most players just want to run and jump (and spin). I think a valid point could be made that the developers of 3D Sonic from Heroes-onward definitely lost the plot and clung onto the least becoming parts of the SA gameplay, sure. I definitely think the boost games, as much as I like them, have in common with the Adventures the things you made a point to discuss/criticize; and I definitely think games like 06, Lost World and Frontiers are proof that Sonic Team have a tendency to completely lose the plot on what it means to control Sonic. I even think the Homing Attack as of present day is way too overused and poorly implemented, as is most mechanics in these games nowadays. But I do not think the Sonic Adventure games are to blame for this. I believe they did the best they could, and a lot of the rules they apply are still reasonable to apply to 3D Sonic in the present day. It's not really fair to throw what they did under the bus as game design incompetence for "not doing Sonic in 3D correctly". You were quick to mention Mario 64 changed a lot about Mario in 3D but to the benefit of maneuvering a 3D space easier. I think much of the same applies to SA1 & 2. (They could definitely do away with the dash panels, though.)

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

Thing is, that's why you design the games to accommodate these things. I think about certain fan projects where while the levels are maybe just a tad too massive? There's so much to explore and it's built so well around a core that tries to balance speed, momentum, platforming and exploration that you can see how a game like it can work and as this video points out, SA1 was not awful. 12:07 even has a great point where all these changes could effectively be ignored had the series improved upon the foundation and replaced elements with stuff that you just can't do in 2D. Basically, SA1 wasn't perfect but it has a good base that if built upon and improved could lead to some fantastic games that are more faithful to spirit of the series while doing its own thing. It's why he highlights the Mario example. Nintendo took full advantage of the 3D space with Mario's moveset and notably with every new 3D game fine-tuned the controls, retained these abilities and even worked in ways to reimplement features of the old games. It's not a "Sonic Adventure is the core problem." situation so much as its "The core problems have been present SINCE SA1.". Think about this, SA1 set a good foundation for new games, SA2 built upon it and with actual improvements like an instant lightspeed dash and less characters meaning there's more consistency one can achieve. But then they made the lightspeed dash the same button as the spin dash, somersault and bounce attack meaning there are points this ability can and WILL crap out at the worst times and all because they wanted the games to still be simple without realizing why the controls for the Genesis games were effective. The levels were made corridors for Sonic and Shadow, they utterly gimped the radar for Knuckles and Rouge and the actual mechanics were not tweaked. The sequel didn't bother tweaking the core mechanics to be better and what it did tweak it either gimped because of its choices in design or it's a positive that it broke because it incorporated and this progressed until finally Sonic Frontiers years and years later at least gave you the means to tweak Sonic's jump momentum. This has meant every game in the 3D era has consistently had the same control faults as SA1 when they should be moving forward. Compare that to the classic games. Sonic 2 removed the speedcap, added the spin dash, reworked special stages into something that, while overused to hell later, are at least in line with Sonic's core tenets and accessing them was more fun and encouraged exploration of the levels and the levels themselves were made to be a better balance of speed, platforming and exploration. This further progressed with Sonic 3 with new playable characters that have mechanics that fit with the overall core, Sonic has extra abilities to match, many of which can be great ways of maintaining flow and the levels are expansive with the means to get the special stages now being the best they possibly can be with the bonus games providing the fun that comes from scouring the world for checkpoints and Mania built upon this even further while even tweaking stuff that didn't necessarily gel with others in Sonic 3 with levels that are faster paced like the old days, a fun new ability in the Drop Dash and more. Basically these games understood that while new gimmicks are nice, the core gameplay should not be forgotten because even if it works, there are mechanics that could do with tweaking. The 3D games don't seem to be about that unfortunately and there's also the worry that SEGA and Sonic Team will just randomly decide to ditch everything and reinvent the wheel again or that they will just cram stuff into a successful formula while neglecting the parts that matter.

[@AzoosYT]

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 I don't disagree with anything said in your second paragraph, I'm on the same page completely. But I do not think fan games have really captured what made 2D Sonic great in 3D; not yet. SA1 gets closer than any of them on the fact that it retains a simplistic, arcadey replayable nature that gives the player a decent amount of depth to how they can move but never to the point of overwhelming the player, whether that's in control, layout or scope. The maps are compact and full of stage gimmicks and obstacles that you need to interact with or avoid, respectively, and the game bothers to give the stage design an ebb and flow that can play in favor of (or to challenge) the player. It obviously has automation as it's key flaw, and these problems are the ones that have plagued the franchise since in far worse extents, but I still stand strong that fan games have not managed to surpass the "tech demo" feeling yet while Adventure still stands as the only absolute proof of these practices put into a 3D Sonic game with concrete level and game design. Our closest champion under it is probably Sonic Robo Blast 2, and even that needs to let go of things like the thok, and further lessen the DOOM-like acceleration or reliance on constant camera control.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

​@@AzoosYT Of course, not every fangame succeeds 100% but I think they do a good job of highlighting a gameplay style that with proper development, levels to properly accommodate them and of course the budget and resources that full backing can provide that you at the very least are closer to nailing something that feels like Sonic lovingly brought into 3D. It's the same with SA1 for me. It's really disappointing that SEGA and Sonic Team moved away from that and kept the core but didn't bother fixing what should've been fixed and its additions caused more problems than they solved and really that's the core of the video I'd say. It's that 3D Sonic's core problems have been a thing since his first outing, the game we forgive it in because it was the first attempt and seemingly because of skewed priorities there hasn't been any attempt to rectify that.

[@BalenaProductions]

Another bangerang video as always Caelum! I've been wishing for a proper 3D Sonic game inspired by the classics for some time. I hope some day we get it.

[@elfascisto6549]

You guys rock, Balena.

[@skpcboy]

some guy said "erm okay?"

[@its_notjordan]

beruanga said that

[@NIDER3]

@@skpcboy what the sigma

[@epicness877]

Idk this comes off as a bit of a black and white mindset to me. There are aspects to sonic's moveset that have been reimplemented in a redundant watered down form or even gutted, but I dont think you can compare player control on a purely "we lost this, so its worse" metric. As noted, the core mechanics of the titles aim for different things. This isnt inerently bad either even though it does seem sometimes sonic might be squeamish of itself. Point being, the mechanical systems that constitute player control are constructed to suit different design philosophies, namely level design. While the variety or type of things sonic can do will vary, a majority of the movesets are able to be competent and compelling and compliment engaging levels. The execution and quality of the games and levels weve seen put out is absolutely deserving of scrutiny, but outside of a couple of entries, I'm not sure how clearly this type of comparison can be posed

[@telekinesticman]

The level design is absolutely part of the same problem, because the more limited movement goes hand in hand with less complex level design. I could have gone more into detail about that as well, but I feel like Sonic level design, linearity and automation have already been discussed a *lot*. I wanted to focus on the actual character movement at its core, because I felt it was being overlooked.

[@epicness877]

@@telekinesticman i suppose that is fair, definitely having less options can lead to less engaging or less complex level design, but at the same time, one of my favorite games is Ico, which manages incredible level design despite having about 3 moves and being stiff as a board 🤷 I know thats antithetical to sonic in a few aspects, but something can be simple or streamlined but engaging. It really depends and regardless I was intrigued by the meandering nature you showed exists in some of the moveset shifts through the series

[@Itz_Kwame]

Parkour was the best thing that ever happened to sonic It was such a good way of bringing his athletic nature into gameplay

[@lpfan4491]

People didn't like it because it wasn't boost.

[@Gnidel]

​@@lpfan4491No, people didn't like it because parkour was useful a total of 5 times if you didn't speedrun. There was too much 2D and gimmicks for parkour to shine.

[@lpfan4491]

@@Gnidel Which is why I always hear "They should not have made this game! Making a non-boost game after Colors and Gens was horrendous". People literally yell into the microphone that they didn't like the ideas, not that they were underutilized.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@Gnidel Then you refine it next game. Realize "Okay none of these gimmicks are really useful and just muddy the gameplay, let's refine the stuff that works." and go from there.

[@sb14andmore50]

​@@lpfan4491And yet those are probably the same people that say the modern games are "boost to win" which isn't true at all

[@TheFrostedfirefly]

I personally think it's even more wild that Sega/Sonic Team has forgotten that Sonic is a hedgehog in everything but name. The fact that the very reason he was designed to look the way he does and it has zero impact on the modern games (until they finally brought back spindash in Frontiers)

[@telekinesticman]

Exactly. The whole point of his design is that he can roll into a ball. Now he's just like, a guy who stands around.

[@bluudevil4483]

​@@telekinesticman basically the flash

[@sonic5993]

@@telekinesticman They leaned heavily on just making him into a superhero as opposed to a Hedgehog

[@unknownwill4th549]

Some guy said some guy said "erm okay?"

[@God-xd1wr]

I think the ideal Sonic game to me might be something between *Rooftops and Alleys* and *Skate 3.* The kind of crazy speed and expressive stunts people can perform in *Skate 3* paired with the stylistic and expressive parkour tricks people use to get around in *Rooftops and Alleys,* all with that bouncy, pinball, Sonic-y flair that makes bouncing around at the speed of sound so much fun.

[@TehJellyLord]

As someone who loves most of the 3D Sonic games, I 100% entirely agree with you here. Adventure is the closest to Classic Sonic in 3D, but it is still so far from what Classic Sonic in 3D could be, and they only got further away from that idea since then. Unfortunately, I think Sonic Team is genuinely just stuck in their ways at this point. We have had so many “generations” of Sonic Team members over the last two decades that have all been trained up on the very idea of 3D Sonic being all about homing chains, dash panels, boosting, etc. It’s to the point now where I wouldnt even trust or have faith in Sonic Team if they announced a game that returns to even the basics that Adventure set. Like, say one day Sonic Team just up and announced Sonic Adventure 3, I absolutely would not trust them to even get that right simply because of how long it has been and how few people that made the Adventure games are still even at Sonic Team. I couldn’t even trust them with that, let alone a 3D game that captures and evolves the series’ original identity.

[@snakey888]

They already screwed up majorly with sa2, surely sa3 couldn't be more of a screw up than sa2 was.

[@KaleSTUDIOS]

@@snakey888 agreed

[@snakey888]

@@Jahlil.W Honestly, games like Shadow and Forces aren't even worse than sa2.

[@user-vi4xy1jw7e]

@@snakey888 lol good one

[@user-vi4xy1jw7e]

I don't see how Adventure is the closest to classic Sonic.

[@oswald-kp1bm]

You are absolutely right, if “Sonic can be anything and still be Sonic”, then make a game that feels like the classics in 3D, for once. I mean that’s not too unreasonable right? They’ve done literally everything else

[@derple8524]

Fr, just one time is all we're asking. Just to see how people feel about it

[@ShowtimeLaw]

Explain how you can transfer the feel of sonic in 2d to 3d

[@oswald-kp1bm]

@@ShowtimeLaw Sonic Project Hero, Sonic Robo Blast 2, Sonic Breeze, Sonic GT and Sonic Utopia, Rolling Rascal, Spark the Jester

[@ShowtimeLaw]

@@oswald-kp1bm all unofficial games, that don't even translate the feeling of 2d to 3d other than momentum. That's all those do

[@oswald-kp1bm]

@@ShowtimeLaw “Unofficial” Thanks, captain obvious. The concept of a 3D translation of the classics is “unofficial” because Sega hasn’t even made it yet. Why do you think we want it so badly in the first place? “Other than momentum” The most defining feature of the classics besides speed, which those games also have.

[@Outta-hz1ej]

I don't know if I agree with your point that the aethstetics of 3D Sonic are poor or the wrong direction. I thought the look of Adventures 1 and 2 really extended the more grounded look of Sonic 3 and brought it into a 3D space, especially with that of the Echindna tribal motif. And I also believe that the story of Adventure 2, especially in it's original Japanese incarnation really helps to heighten the tension at the end of the game and elevate the gameplay. That Last Story is the only time it really feels like there's a ticking time bomb and you have to race to complete the game and solve the mystery of Shadow.

[@mikoaj5002]

❤

[@galten7361]

@Outta-hz1ej Adventure was just a transition period from Classic to "modern" largely as a side effect of the game starting as a Classic one (if only visually). The hubs were transparently trying to be "realistic" with the NPCs looking like ones from games like the PS1 Final Fantasies. At the same time the Zones themselves were overall more in line with the looks of the Genesis Era games. Adventure 2 was the game that really committed to the shift that begun. The Zones were more strongly distanced from the Genesis ones, the NPCs were even more trying to be le realistic, the new recurring characters were a shonen battle manga rival ala Vegeta/Hiei/Kaiba/Vergil/etc. and a bat pretty obviously designed to be Sonic's Jessica Rabbit or Minerva Mink.. The plot focused more on government conspiracies ala Metal Gear with a new villain who was actively trying to kill everyone.

[@NezumiVA]

While I still enjoy a lot of the modern games (including Frontiers) personally, I can't deny the cogency and consistency of your points here. You did a very good job highlighting the design issues following the series.

[@Egood_ty]

Games can be fun and not sonic at the same time

[@mrmelonman2893]

@@Egood_ty then whats the point of sonic?

[@NickonPlanetRipple]

The problem is a... somewhat justified lack of faith in players. The problems inherent since Adventure have only gotten worse/more automated over time because Sonic Team is terrified of players and reviewers screwing up and blaming their error on "bad" game design. It's happened countless times. If momentum is maintained during a homing attack, confused players will fling themselves into a bottomless pit and say it's the game's fault. My jaw hit the floor when, for the first time in an official game, the Frontiers final story featured one spiral-shaped loop that had NO dash panels in it, and that the camera followed the player through. I'd never experienced that player trust in an official game to simply make it through a loop before. It's only become more apparent over the years (decades, now) how overbearing the hand-holding in Sonic is, BUT.... I do understand why they do it. Most people just don't "get" Sonic.

[@derple8524]

I will say if they get rid of bottomless pits and made platforms more wider and bigger for Sonic to explore similar to Sonic Utopia, players won't have these problems but they kept having ways for Sonic to fall down and platforms being too tight to land on for a character with so much speed

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@derple8524 I also think part of the problem comes from SEGA's focus in targeting more young children with the franchise when maybe it should consider skewing older. Not too much older mind you but just make it clear this isn't really for really little kids and is thus going to test your reflexes.

[@joaquindiaz3621]

​@@derple8524 can we use Sonic project Hero instead of Sonic utopía, that Game is mostly empty and slopes, at least project Hero has more into It than that

[@minty6623]

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 morso that the Sonic is a series for everyone, something that kids can enjoy to play while also having something for adults too, replay value as they get older, looking back at the stories and realizing the message or themes present in them

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@joaquindiaz3621 To be fair to Utopia, its purpose is to not really be a full-fledged fangame with proper levels. It's more a tech demo that's showing off what a 3D Sonic game that plays like the classics could do and thus you have a massive environment to fool around in so that you can give that a look.

[@Talxic]

can't wait for ppl to misinterpret all of your points and put some stupid label on you.

[@Astralst1rz]

why would they?

[@telekinesticman]

It happens whenever I say anything remotely negative about Sonic, it's to be expected. People are *very* defensive over this series and project their own insecurities towards anyone they disagree with. It's fine if they disagree with what I say, but it's the toxicity that's a problem. I've covered it in previous videos and I hope I never have to again.

[@Astralst1rz]

@@telekinesticman Yeah, The sonic fandom is truly full of some toxicity and negativity and you can't say anything without people on you. I mean, I do want the series to be better, It's that some people will think that you're complaining.

[@telekinesticman]

Make no mistake, I *am* complaining, I'm just trying to do so in a constructive way that isn't annoying or whiny.

[@RaiginAnimator]

@@telekinesticman ngl I always feel like There are so few primarily negative critiques that don’t devolve To whining about everything after watching your videos I started watching more negative views and critiques on Sonic games And I feel like I’m a better fan for it 👍🏿

[@hijster479]

You make a lot of good points, but you (and pretty much every other creator that speaks on this topic) ignored a key issue. How can a "classic" 3D game possibly have compelling level design? It's easy to look at Sonic's control and point out the things that he lost while ignoring how they would actually work in 3D. Adventure is actually a good example of this. Is trivially easy to skip large chunks of level design with Spin-dash jumps alone. Implementing even more unchained movement would either add in the technical hurdle of making the levels much larger to compensate, or exacerbate the problem of players skipping most of the level design. Pretty much every game that's tried to adapt Sonics 2D gameplay has similar issues. I love Spark 3, but the fastest way to beat those levels is to fly over them. It drains any unique identity from a good chunk of the stages because they can all be beaten in a similar way. The solution most have settled on seems to be to add a ton of awkward collectibles to incentivize you to take slower routes through the same linear levels. I'd argue this is even worse than the Adventure games. In those games extra lives are there as a bonus, not to coax you into interacting with the level design. It might sound harsh but I've never played a game in this style with genuinely challenging and compelling level design. All of the fun comes from the novelty of the movement, If that ever wears off I lose any reason to revisit them. That's fine for these games, with a few exceptions most of them are free or cheap (I'm looking at you, Penny). But a 5-10 hour experience isn't going to fly as your big console exclusive. I don't think Sonic Team fumbled the execution, they made a deliberate and necessary compromise. They obviously didn't want their games to be sub 10 hour experiences (hence the multiple playstyles, sub games, and chao garden). And it's not like later games didn't improve on this formula. SA2 in Particular has some of the best levels in the series with ample reason to actually interact with them due to the rankings and chao garden. Of course they have their problems, but I've gotten way more mileage out of most of these titles, even if the core gameplay is less faithful. The later games aren't tripping over themselves to reintroduce the classic elements because they don't work in 3D, at least not as well. If they had tried we wouldn't have gotten something along the lines of the indie darlings we love, we would've gotten Megaman X7.

[@teryliuhoo5989]

Go play pennys big breakaway

[@hijster479]

@@teryliuhoo5989 I have. It has similar issues. The dilemmas are mostly just there get you to engage with the level design. If you ignore them you can just blast past most of it. I'm not saying it isn't fun, I actually rather like it. But this kind of design wouldn't work for a full priced release, as it stands I think Penny itself is overpriced.

[@snakey888]

The example of sa1 and its spin dash allowing you to skip large chunks of levels is not because the game mimics the classic design, but rather because it doesn't. The classic games don't have moves as broken as sa1's spindash, which is more similar to boost than it is the classic spin dash. If a game needs to add polarising, out of place gameplay styles that nobody asked for and few even appreciate, like sa2 does, and the core gameplay is still shallow and relatively uninteresting, then something needs to be rethought.

[@hijster479]

@@snakey888 It's not necessarily that the spindash is broken, it's that it doesn't work as well in 3D. Changing the spindash doesn't change the fact that there are more vectors to circumvent 3D level design. You can't go around obstacles in the same way in 2D, even if you take a higher path you're still covering the same amount of ground, just on a different path with different level design. In something like Adventure 1's Speed Highway or Spark 3's Protest city you can skip most of the level by simply jumping from building to building. And Spark 3 doesn't have Adventures Spindash. Like I said it's a fundamental issue with high speed and momentum in a 3D space, you'd either have to make the levels much bigger and thus less readable to compensate, or you end up with samey levels that are easy to skip.

[@snakey888]

@@hijster479 In the case of spin dash in sa1, it is definitely a case of it being broken. If it functioned closer to the classic games, most of those skips would be impossible to do.

[@BananaMana69]

I have been reaf8ng and watching online Sonic discussions and critiques for almost 2 decades now and this is the single best piece comparing the classics and the 3D games I have ever seen. Very well done.

[@Prime_Legend]

This video has respectable points, I feel like it doesn't mindlessly bash on 3D sonic and is definitely more grey. But it's still kinda the same thing that were prevalent in the 2010s, albeit more nuanced. You simply cannot adapt 2D Sonic into a CONSOLE, 40-60 DOLLAR 3D title. Fangames that do it are meant to be arcade like in nature. Short, fun experiences, but do not amount to the content of a full proper game. Okay I'll state this, these 3D fangames that replicate classic sonic's physics in 3D have open, but awful level design. Its openness accounts for the fact Sonic can always maintain and gain momentum, whether through loops, terrain, or bouncing on enemies, so everything is incredibly so spaced out. This is fun gameplay for a bit, until you realise 80% of the time you're simply leaping, jumping over MOST of the level with barely any enemy or basic ground interaction, which is why I really like what they did with the adventure games, especially adventure 2 despite being more linear. Now one could always say we should just make the levels 'bigger', but even with levels big like the ones seen in Sonic Utopia, most of the gameplay you witness is bland, boring skips of launching all over the map with little interaction with the level. I can find more mastery and immersion in the adventure game's more closed, compacted design than these spacious, meaningless fangames. Not to say these fangames are bad, but I'm pretty sure sega realises this type of gameplay will simply bore most players over a 8+ hour runtime. Futhermore loops...loops in 3D are a disorientating experience. Look at any fan title, and you see struggles with controlling/witnessing it on screen. I'm sure SEGA, sonic team, and other fans know this, but you can't simply port 2D Genesis Sonic into 3D and call it a day.

[@lambousginiguccigod2007]

I agree with a-lot of this. But isn’t Sonic adventure one of the biggest culprits of level design skipping?

[@bluudevil4483]

Skill issues

[@lambousginiguccigod2007]

@@bluudevil4483 which part?

[@snakey888]

Perhaps they do not "amount to the content of a full proper game" because they are made by a single individual, that does it as a hobby as opposed to a full time job? Whereas these "full proper games" are made by teams that consist of plenty of people with a dedicated budget. The level design can be accounted for with similar reasoning, they are more equivalent to a test level if anything. Also, in games like Utopia, to get that kind of momentum that enables one to "leap over everything" you need to properly interact with the ground and its environment in a mindful manner, the kind of interaction that is far deeper and more interesting than anything seen in the likes of sa2. It should also be noted that "jumping over MOST of the level" is neither a required way to play Utopia, nor the ideal one, it's just a cool thing you can do by utilising the mechanics, physics and level design. By the same logic we can discard the original Sonic gameplay because you can similarly jump over 80% of certain acts.

[@Prime_Legend]

​@@snakey888 Even if they got a triple A budget to transfer Genesis Sonic into 3D, it just wouldn't work either way. At best you're relying on a weightless guess as to how it'd work. Let's say a proper game dev team accounted for sonic's movement with massive level design, that still means most of the time such game, you'd still be moving forward and occasionally jumping due to the MASSIVE momentum you've garnered. That's not engaging gameplay, which brings me to the second point. " you need to properly interact with the ground and its environment in a mindful manner," mindful manner? I've played utopia and I'll say this, it's EASY to roll into a boll and gain so much momentum to the point you start flying all over the place. That isn't to say utopia is designed badly, but that's what you get when you translate Genesis sonic 1:1 exactly into 3D. That's not interesting gameplay. It's a glorified Boost formula of constantly going forward and gaining massive speed easily. The adventure formula is way superior. The level design is compact, but filled to the brim with enemies, traps, platforming challenges, which is why the AVERAGE player cannot go that fast in sonic adventure 2 that easily. It requires through mastery and sense of flow to progress through the compact, more difficult and engaging level design at a face rate, an aspect that Sonic Utopia and many of these genesis 3D Sonic fan games lack horribly.

[@ryananthony2869]

Not gonna lie,I was chuckling when you mentioned the concept of the next Sonic game was just HellDivers 2 with Sonic in it,and asking if that would still be a "Sonic" game. Because "Ah yes,I love this cartoon blue hedgehog being in this gritty,hyper realistic setting while shooting aliens." (Wait a minute.)

[@goldslip-ons]

It is MIND BLOWING how Sonic Colors is the only 3D Sonic game that has the badnik bounce mechanic.

[@snakey888]

Generations has it too, and to a lesser extent Unleashed.

[@blackmegaman2lmao175]

@@snakey888 Unleashed has it but it is so useless and underclocked that you're better off homing attacking tbh

[@pelicanspond1070]

You can actually use badnik bounces for shortcuts in other 3D Sonic games. Adventure 2 - Like in the treasure hunting levels sometimes speed stages Heroes - You can skip the Final Fotress enemies if you bounce of the giant badniks precise enough with the fly type at the end of the level. Just one of the instances in the game. Unleashed - You can do badnik bounces can be use for shortcuts in certain cases like the Spagonia 3D extra level iirc. Gens - You can utilize it a lot even as Modern Sonic. You can check out speedruns of these games to see them done in runs. Colors isn't the only game that does it. Ironically despite Adventure 1 feeling the best to control in 3D, there is no sort of badnik bouncing at all

[@technicallyinept2120]

A probably insignificant compliment, but I appreciate the choice and usage of video clips in this video. I was never at a loss of what you were talking about about or why you felt that way.

[@telekinesticman]

Thank you, I spend a lot of time getting specific footage to illustrate my points as clearly as possible. I think a lot of people assume this stuff is easy, but trying to communicate my points visually can be quite challenging at times. There's always going to be moments where the background footage has to be a little bit generic, but I try whenever possible to add meaning through the editing. I could never let someone else edit my videos for me, because that process is so crucial to the pace, tone, and delivery of the arguments.

[@dancingvalkyrie]

It's really depressing how the Adventure style of gameplay was the closest we've ever gotten to a truly 3D version of the classic games but SEGA and Sonic Team continue to ignore it's existence rather than expand or adjust it to make it better and more faithful to those old titles. It really feels like the fanbase only cares about the spectacle or narrative rather than the fundamentals.

[@snakey888]

The moment sa2 released it was clear that any resemblance to the Mega drive games was just superficial pandering.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Respectable

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@snakey888based

[@oxytheaxolotl981]

some guy said "some guy said 'erm okay?'"

[@cyan.6399]

gonna procrastinate watching this for a long while but im betting it's worth the time

[@rtsa4633]

Homing attack would be cooler if it always behaving like the homing attack on balloons. Imagine homing attack but you're flying forward still after hitting the enemy and still have complete control over the character. Titanfall style wall running that maintains momentum and feels smooth. Large open world sandbox style worlds that can play in any direction you go. Every game play mechanic, offering different routes and options depending on what they make available.

[@cazecomic]

I think that your criticism of the homing attack holds a lot of truth, especially with how most games use it, but I don’t think Sonic’s high speed gameplay allows him to simply hit an enemy in 3d as consistently as Mario. Sonic Utopia’s homing attack takes your angle and velocity into account with how it behaves and in a way serves as an actual aim assist rather than a strict override and it never stops your flow like the official one. (maybe you already know that since the game is in the video). In terms of visuals I also think you’re on the money, but sa1 is less photorealism and more photobashing, an aesthetic more akin to their other works like NiGHTS. Station Square and the Mystic Ruins are more elaborations off of Sonic CD than a sudden shift to realism. Sa2 had stylized bridge areas and Halloween styled pumpkin fields with ancient pyramids and a wonderfully elaborate space station. The idea is that in an ideal scenario, they would’ve played with the gradient of aesthetics they had in the games prior, but SA1 onward had pretty turbulent development with many people who defined Sonic leaving the company. You can see this with how in Heroes, they reeled back and played with the idea of adding more overt surrealism once again. Sonic 1-SA2 was basically all Sonic. It reached different extremes and played with the way you could do storytelling in a medium that allows it. There are aspects that stayed after in terms of spirit like heroes or unleashed, but the whole picture was never really positive again. Great video though, not many people are willing to be as real about the problems with 3d Sonic as you, and I say this as someone who loves Sa1 and 2 yet finds them missing things from 3 and CD.

[@jayceallen6530]

What sucks about recent games like forces and frontiers is that one mechanic, the slide, is never needed at all yet it remains a part of his moveset in both games for some reason and its really weird, I liked it in gens and unleashed because they gave you many situations to use it and not only did it look really cool, but it keeps you on your toes and gives you another move to keep in mind

[@anotherjon6997]

Honestly, I was kind of with you, up until that very last line. "If we can't even agree on what a Sonic game is, then it only shows how far the franchise has fallen." I get the point very well; that Sega and Sonic Team have been so inconsistent in their design of the games, that it has led to everyone having a different understanding of what a Sonic game is, showing a lack of a clear identity; but I think it comes across as very dismissive of those different perspectives. Hell, I know people who are big fans of the 3D Sonic games who just aren't fans of the classic 2D stuff; and though I disagree heavily, there's nothing wrong with that. I agree with the idea that it would be good for Sega to have different branches of Sonic games that can appeal to different audiences, but the business mind in me also knows that such a thing mostly works if the idea can sell enough to fund it along side the current output (and considering Frontiers was successful, focus is more than likely being built on that). But of course, that still is built on the idea that people generally have different preferences for the kind of Sonic game they want. Even using BotW and TotK as an example as you've shown, there have also been plenty of people who actively preferred the previous 3D Zelda formula and just don't have any interest in the modern direction despite its success. Overall, I think you make a ton of great points here, even points I disagree with, and I think what you said here can make for an excellent Sonic game; but I don't quite think that's the only way a Sonic game can work or be good.

[@sonic5993]

I think his Metroid point has a lot of merit; Prime deviated a lot from what made 2D Metroid good, but still kept a lot of its identity from the older games and even reinterpreted some ideas to better fit a 3D environment. Prime is very different from 2D Metroid, but almost everyone agrees that it's still a Metroid game despite it. Plus, they still did 2D Metroid games like Dread. 3D Sonic games often have very little in common with their 2D counterparts outside of superficial elements, and because of that, it's led to people developing different ideas on what Sonic even is. Even current 2D Sonic games play more like their 3D counterparts, with Mania being the sole exception. I don't think it would be as bad if 3D Sonic wasn't borderline Sonic in-name only, and we still got 2D games that built on what the originals did instead of... Superstars.

[@anotherjon6997]

@@sonic5993 With all due respect, calling 3D Sonic "in-name only" kind of overlooks the entire point I was making here.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

I'd say that this is ultimately not about different preferences because obviously everyone is gonna have their tastes for Sonic but I think there's a difference between natural shifts and what Sonic does. For example, BotW and TotK are still built upon cores that have always been present in Zelda's design such as the sense of exploration, the freedom for players to find their own path and more with TotK as a sequel still working off of and building upon the previous game and sure, some players didn't vibe with it but BotW and TotK still sold a LOT with plenty of players who enjoy it and this comes after Nintendo already did a lot with the previous 3D Zelda style. Now imagine if TotK just after BotW made a hard shift to a completely different gameplay style and then the game after that did. They're still technically exploration-based games but none of them feel like they have real connecting elements beyond the characters and some abilities. Then you'd run into Sonic's problem and what this video is really highlighting. The thing is? This didn't need to be a thing. If SEGA and Sonic Team from the beginning built upon SA1's foundation and worked to improve the core gameplay along with whatever else they were doing then it really would be more of an aesthetic preference and what style you prefer but because we've gone through so many pointless shifts in gameplay, often to types that really feel like they're chasing trends more than anything? There are so many camps of Sonic fan when there never needed to be and in that time things keep getting ignored. The fact that Frontiers. a game released 24 YEARS after SA1 finally addressed certain mechanics by allowing you to tweak the jump deceleration and thus ensure Sonic doesn't lose momentum when doing one simple action is insane to me. Like you compare that to Mario where continuously with his games they maintain the gameplay and refine its core while adding new things to keep it fresh and it's stunning to see because at that point, it really highlights that Sonic Team and SEGA were seemingly so scared of the series growing stagnant that in their pursuit of new gameplay styles? They've let certain mechanics go stagnant.

[@anotherjon6997]

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 I think that's a valid perspective; though I'd argue the games immediately after Adventure didn't have such a sharp departure in terms of core gameplay, more that none of the changes made actively felt like improvements. SA2's overall structure was different for sure, but Sonic fundamental control and gameplay was largely retained. And though both Heroes and Shadow feature unique mechanics to their games, their base is still built around SA1's speed style. In this sense, I'd say it's not overly different from 3D Mario in this regard given the differences between 64, Sunshine, and Galaxy. The issue Sonic faced was that a ton of these changes kept being made for the worse until reaching a breaking point in 06; where the aftermath is where we really started to see a huge sprawl in game styles with Secret Rings and Unleashed. And even then, Unleashed's boost formula was stuck with and developed up until Lost World came around (and to concede my own point here, this change really did feel needless). And when Sega did try going back to the boost formula with Forces, it lacked much of what made that style work so well to begin with; so once again, the decision came to reinvent the wheel with Frontiers now. EDIT: I kind of lost my plot a bit with this comment, so I'll shorten my point to this: it's 100% right and on Sega that they failed to effectively build upon their base 3D gameplay well enough to where they could go easily go back to what worked instead of having to scrap the entire formula. That said, I don't think going back to emulate those fundamentals or the 2D games is the *only* path to be a successful Sonic game; especially with Frontiers now being able to act as a new foundation.

[@sonic5993]

@@anotherjon6997 I said "borderline" I didn't say that they were entirely devoid of them. But you can agree Sonic doesn't resemble its original incarnation right?

[@spaghettiking7312]

I usually don't bother with modern gaming essays, but I'll admit that I couldn't shut this off. This is a classic criticism. These are points I've heard in forums for years, and you've synthesised these points brilliantly. Excellent video.

[@camgoodkicks]

I’ve always wondered why 3D Sonic has a slide button when that could just make him curl into a ball

[@evdestroy5304]

"What defines a Sonic game?" Speed, platforming, and exploration. All of the games that are considered the best have a mix of these three attributes. This is why people like Frontiers. It's fun.

[@maxios-7613]

You know in Sonic Adventure they actually planned to make Super Sonic playable in normal levels. If you look into the files there is a sound file for Tikal saying that "if you collect 50 rings you hit the action button while jumping to turn into Super Sonic" or something like that, but I guess they scrapped it later because his speed would break some levels (which is actually really fun).

[@nad2059]

One of my records in the SRB2's Time Attack mode includes a double badnik bounce, which is a significant skip that improved my time a lot. It's probably the best thing I've ever come up with and done in this game. It's a shame so many fundamental mechanics were lost in official Sonic games.

[@Zerosaber91]

One of the main reasons SRB2 being my favorite Sonic game is the badnik bounce

[@boiled_walrus6960]

I love that you sprinkled in bits of utopia gameplay to demonstrate some points, utopia is my ideal sonic gameplay. I think it almost perfectly captures what makes the classics fun and appealing

[@33pandagamer]

I actually really like the homing attack. I enjoy the way it feels to use, and how you have to time it sometimes. I also really like using it in 2d levels like Sonic 4 Episode 2 and the 3DS version of Generations' Classic Sonic levels. I like how it slows down your moment in the air, so you can chain homing attacks together with more precise timing. I also really like how sword slashing works in Black Knights, while your character does slow down, you don't, because to slash at an enemy you have to swing the Wii Remote, so even when Sonic slows down you still feel that sense of movement through your actual movements.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

It’s funny how every 3D Sonic game has Mindless Homing Attack Chains but ONLY in Frontiers did I notice JUST how mindless they are. I swear at least 40% of that game’s level design is mindless homing attacks (the rest is all Automated LOL).

[@spinceiling7442]

Do you mean Forces? I can't think of many Homing attack chains in frontiers

[@Terminal_Apotos]

@@spinceiling7442 No, I said Frontiers. I can show you MANY homing attack chains in Frontiers.

[@Azurald55]

@@spinceiling7442 Forces is more known for it's mindless boosting instead

[@rainpooper7088]

Were you playing Easy mode? Because the towers add mindless homing attack chains if you select Easy mode to let you skip the platforming gameplay.

[@telekinesticman]

If that's the case...then are we admitting that Homing Attack chains are in fact easy and mindless?

[@SuperSonic68]

It is always so difficult to leave comments on these videos because I have nothing to say about them. The only thing I have to add is: *nods* Yeah, pretty much!

[@kobaltsteel6418]

I remember reading up interviews about the development of Sonic Adventure, and I'm not sure if you read them, but what struck me as odd was that... from what it sounds like, the developers were kind-of aware about all of this, to some degree; it was clear from the developers that they knew that what Sonic Adventure turned into wasn't really what they would have done for a 3D Sonic game, but apparently, the time and resources necessary for a true 3D Sonic game would be so astronomically high that SEGA wasn't going to approve it, so they had to work around these limitations to the best of their ability... resulting in Sonic Adventure... a "full sized Sonic game" that isn't really a full sized Sonic game I think the problem we have with 3D Sonic is that Sonic Team is expected to make a full 3D Sonic game, that could appease the demands of SEGA, gamers, critics, and fans, with only a fraction of the resources and time they need for a game like that... and this is a task that is basically impossible, because 3D Sonic games would hypothetically be these supermassive adventure games that eat up a lot of time resources... but they have to find a way to make it work... which I think is the root of why we get all of these strange and inconsistent designs in 3D Sonic games, coupled with uncertainty that spawns from negative reception Because it's not like Sonic Team is like this creatively bankrupt, awful, stupid team of developers who have this malicious intent or anything; it's clear they have talent, skills, and (for the most part) respect their fans and the franchise they work on... it's clear they want to make 3D Sonic work as well, but with the limitations placed on them, they have no idea how to deal with this insurmountable challenge... it's a situation I think NO ONE wants to be a part of. Not that this excuses the 3D Sonic games, but should the blame really be squarely and exclusively placed on the developers?

[@rogito2437]

The commentary on the homing attack opened my eyes

[@AizakkuAnalysis]

I was never a huge fan of classic sonic, but I really took for granted how iconic the aesthetic was to sonic as a whole. It's crazy how much we've devolved into just "real life" aesthetics with cities and just baron stretches of dirt & flora. (When they aren't just copying common level tropes)

[@SwizzleMix]

Seriously, that classic-style surreality is unmatched. It only takes one look at "Sonic the Screensaver" to appreciate how charming it is

[@HOTD108_]

Although it is different from the Genesis games, I still think most of the 3D games have an appealing, sometimes downright beautiful, visual style in their own right. Not necessarily the same art style that Sonic started with, but still qualify on it's own. Frontiers, however, there is just absolutely no excuse for. This isn't a new observation, but omg it literally looks like a Unity asset flip made by one guy over a weekend. It just might the ugliest game of the 21st century thus far, and I am not kidding. At least something like Kane & Lynch 2: Dog Days was ugly on purpose, as a deliberate creative choice done to evoke an intended gross feel, which obviously gives it niche appeal but hey it IS the point. Frontiers, on the other hand, is supposed to be a cool and stylish Sonic game with mass appeal and yet it looks like... Well, like nobdoy cared.

[@Brabbs]

@@SwizzleMix Those screensaver images kick ass

[@Brabbs]

I think Sonic Colors has a nice blend of those bombastic colors while also being realistic to give sonic a fitting feel.

[@Gnidel]

Why not both? Generations proved that classic aesthetics with a touch of realism look great.

[@FloofPuppy]

I still think Unleashed and Generations are my go-to for great Sonic stuff. I still love the classics (Mostly 3 and 3D Blast) and I can still respect Adventure 1 and 2 for what they were.

[@JoaoVictor-hn8ht]

You hit the nail in the head at 31:20. The first thing that came to my mind after seeing Frontiers was: this is just "some game" that Sonic Team mindlessly slapped rings and "Sonic-y" props to call it a Sonic game in the box art and sell it. Nearly nothing in that game truly resembles or evokes Sonic, it's just a random game (that for the most part really just looks like a standard UE test map) with a Sonic skin. It's the fartest Sonic Team has ever gone about making anything and calling a Sonic game last minute. To add even further to your commentary, another game was just announced, and it's literally Fall Guys with a Sonic skin ...

[@derple8524]

Yeah I saw that, I didn't even think about it that much. But now you point it out it is just that. Really shows how they love chasing popular concepts instead of understanding what Sonic is

[@TopFloorByrne]

Ironic since Fall Guys has Sonic Skins in it.

[@felixdaniels37]

The fundamental issue with Sonic Team post adventure is that they stopped having confidence in Sonic. Rather than being trailblazers in their own right that alters the very fabric of the industry like in the Genesis days, they've stopped being faithful to themselves for the sake of chasing the current video game trends. Shadow the Hedgehog is infamous for trying to copy Ratchet and Clank, becoming a crude parody of edgy cash in games of the time. Sonic 06 is trying to incorporate as much of Final Fantasy into itself as much as humanly possible. Sonic Lost World is Mario Galaxy, Sonic Frontiers is BOTW, etc. Sonic has transformed into this bizarre pop culture chameleon that has resigned to simply blending in with the background. And this distinct lack of confidence not only goes against Sonic on a fundamental level, but permeates every aspect of 3D Sonic games. From the inconsistent presentation to the gameplay being a Ship of Theseus that is now unrecognizable from where it started. This lack of confidence culminates in Frontiers, and ESPECIALLY in it's custom physics slider. That has to be by far the dumbest thing to have ever been implemented in this franchise. Not only does it make it near impossible to make coherent level design due to not being able to account for the near infinite player actions, but also makes it more difficult to improve on whatever Frontiers was even trying to do due to the wildly different experiences it offers. Like everything in Frontiers, it's a hail mary throw done out of sheer desperation and cowardice, and I loath it and everything it stands for. It's no coincidence how the best received Sonic games post-Geneis and pre-Frontiers were the games that tried to reconcile with Sonic's identity and have confidence in its strengths. Colors, Unleashed, Frontiers, Mania. They all at least TRIED to bring back that spark of confidence that was lost to varying degrees of success. Mania especially is the prime example thay suceeds in that, that game OOZES confidence in what it's trying to do, and truly felt like it was trying to stand out from the crowd. It truly felt like Sonic finally had it's act together, before Forces promptly shattered that illusion merely months later. Forces and Frontiers are cold reminders that this issue cannot be resolved until some major changes happens at Sonic Team, and by extension Sega themselves.

[@nerodoesart5886]

I agree with this.

[@minty6623]

What really drags down Frontiers for me is how I want to beat the levels through my way of methods or move around in satisfying ways but some mechanics and scripting catch me and PUNISH me for not following their rules. Kishimoto said that the inspirations they took were from Breath of the Wild, that game I've heard has wayy more freedom of choices the player can do and they are reward for that regardless of how they did it. In Frontiers, I have to condition myself with what catches and holds me hostage and knowing what I can do to avoid it which sounds horrible because why do I have to bind through a rule just so that I can keep my flow, rhythm, and momentum that I've been carrying myself with. That might sound fine but it would've been wayyy better if it weren't for scripted spots, automation, and such. I don't want to be held hostage, I want to do MEEE, how MEEE wants to do it.

[@galten7361]

@felixdaniels37 Shadow the Hedgehog was trying to be Jak and Daxter. Jak 2 that is.

[@spontman]

I've had this sitting in my Watch Later for quite a while, and it is CRIMINAL that I didn't watch it until now. This is one of the best videos on Sonic that I have ever watched, and does a great job communicating a sentiment that I've had about the 3D games for years but have never been able to articulate as well as you did here. I will definitely be checking out your other stuff.

[@somari8591]

I think it honestly is kind of sad how much a good chunk of the fanbase actively resent the classic identity just for how its overshadowed the modern games in terms of quality all the way down to the aesthetic's of those games. To echo a brief hypothesis from a video by Pariah, I truly would not have any problems with a 3D Sonic having everything be the same as the Adventure games but having aesthetics matching the general vision of Sonic during the Saturn era, and the same goes for gameplay. As much as I enjoy Frontiers, if the next game did away with bad puzzles, stock unity maps, along with the general lack of style in a majority of cutscenes, and leaned more towards what we got from the Spin Dash, with true classic sonic physics, i would genuinely not have a problem with that. You mentioned the "boring" action chain challenges but I want them to be the blueprint for Sonic unlocking things (would rather it not be a core part of his moveset that makes the game better) through maintaining a score combo via a flow of actions (much like Tony Hawk), with higher scores unlocking either more of the map, or a certain skill for Sonic (rather than just handing it to you via a skill tree or getting an arbitrary combat move from saving his friends). It would certainly be better than playing Google Play Legend of Zelda for a chunk of map. Again, I'm saying all this as someone who consiiders Frontiers an 8/10, I think its a good game and it really brought me back down to what I like about Sonic. But I still see the value of honoring Sonic's better games through one that properly translates his most defining and unique aspects.

[@shamaboy11]

Couldn’t have it said any better myself

[@sonic5993]

The series has been so thoroughly comprised of its identity that people actively reject anything that doesn't fit the mold of what they specifically came up with.

[@littlemoth4956]

SA’s art style was fine, though. You don’t need to change that, either.

[@littlemoth4956]

@@sonic5993Isn’t everyone here doing exactly that?

[@somari8591]

@@littlemoth4956 I like the Adventure art style fine enough, I still think a game tapping into the environments and aesthetic of Sonic R and CD would be great tho.

[@kaistudios5536]

I'm keeping this video saved, as it's the most level-headed, yet fairly critical, and overall, *genuine take from a fan who IS passionate about this series, but can't help from noticing how far we've strayed entirely.* And here's two funny things I've noticed as well: We admire, praise, and enjoy fangames more than official releases at times because they understand and FULLY take the classic formula and implant in into the 3rd dimension. - Even in official releases, our natural instinct is to try and execute certain moves we've come to expect from the sonic formula, but are disappointed when they can't be achieved due to the current stagnation of the series. Another point that I'd like to discuss is the simplistic, yet complex gameplay of the classic formula. When you mentioned about Sonic's new abilities that overshadow his core mechanics from the classics, it made me think... - As a game designer, with a moveset like the current modern Sonic, isn't it extremely challenging to make a world that can accommodate for Sonic's drastic moveset? It's the reason why even with Frontiers current state, things like unwalkable walls, invisible barriers, and dashpads are constantly used. However, by taking the classic formula and implementing it PROPERLY into a 3D space _(while taking the improvements that you've acknowledged from future releases, along with furthering their capability),_ *you have a simple, yet EXTREMELY effective moveset that only now requires you to shape the environment around it.* No advanced understanding of the controls are necessary, and Sonic Team could focus more on level-design. It's why the classic games (and Adventure 1 & 2) can be played with just the joystick/d-pad and one button.

[@KirikkSiSq]

Yeah, but then the enviroments will have FAR more ground and less obstacles/void they have now Or else it's gonna be extremely difficult

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@KirikkSiSq Thing is? That's okay. For instance, I messed with Sonic Encore, a game that uses the Bumper Engine established by Sonic GT with remade stages from the Genesis era. The stages are big and expansive but also challenging. Thanks to the gameplay of the Bumper Engine following the idea of being easy to learn but difficult to master, they also do enough with invisible walls and other obstacles to ensure you won't just fly out of the stage to your death. The focus is not on just taking control away for thrills, it gives you a playground and tells you to go nuts.

[@oreogod1985]

Loving the video, but just wanted to say that while 15:36 is technically true, you can get the light speed dash to act like the adventure one by upgrading the speed stat. Whether or not locking that behind upgrading was a good idea though yeah idk

[@Water90435]

This comment may prove a little controversial, but I’ve always found the drop dash introduced in mania to basically be classic sonics boost. Whenever I play the games with the drop dash available, all I really find myself doing is spamming the drop dash over and over again for instant speed, mainly because there’s no consequences for pulling it off. At this point, classic sonic might be as stagnated as modern sonic.

[@SetnaroX]

Solid video, my friend. The points you bring up are excellent, and I wish more people would understand that viewpoint. I won't pretend to say I know what's best for Sonic, because nowadays, I'm pretty casual towards the series, jumping into the new games with low expectations, getting my fix, and then moving on. It kinda sucks that that's how I am with the series now, because even though I did enjoy Frontiers, I don't find myself going back to that game at all, not even with the free DLC it offered. Most of the new Sonic games don't have me greatly attached to them as I used to be with classic trilogy, Adventure, Heroes, or even Shadow, and I was there since the Genesis days. I really don't know what can be done to make this series better because with all the complaining we do, we are at the mercy of what Sonic Team just thinks is best for Sonic. I could say fan feedback is important, but I feel like even that can be a problem. Way before Generations came about, fans begged for the return of the "real" Sonic of the 90's, and for a while, SEGA was pretty stubborn in giving the fans just that, but now it's like, after Generations, SEGA happily plasters him everywhere just to remind us that, yep, this is indeed the classic Sonic we know and love, but even that's not true in the slightest because they flanderized this version of Sonic into being this cuddly, cute hero like if that was how it always was all along. And what's worse is that fans just accept that. That comic where the girl was hugging and squeezing classic Sonic and saying he was just like she remembered after making his Generations return while painting modern Sonic as this obnoxious creature who can't stop talking was the embodiment of how fans don't seem to get the real issue of Sonic's characterization. Anyway, sorry for that little rant. I don't often get to talk about Sonic myself because it feels so embarrassing to even be in that subject now that I'm a grown man and the argument everyone gives is that Sonic is just for kids so why even overthink it?

[@megamillion5852]

I really feel you on losing the love with the series. I've only recently found that flame again, and I almost can't believe how much I do love Sonic, in spite of everything. Here's to hoping that Sonic Team can one day surprise you with something undeniably spectacular.

[@notrealnotreal-e8g]

I’d say that the only real thru line you could draw that sets Sonic apart from any other video game is the character of sonic himself which is probably why some people like black knight so much because some people consider it the best version of sonic.

[@alirezasaeednia4118]

I mean the whole sonic 1 itself wasn’t faithful to green hill that made sonic so cool and fast, only green hill and starlight zone were fast paced, others like marble zone were slow

[@theholygamer969]

If you were to implement loops in 3D as a momentum tool, you'd have to turn them into a hollowed-out corkscrew or tube. You could slalom up and down the sides like a half-pipe until you can build enough speed to run along its ceiling.

[@JackofBlades500]

It’s tiring seeing Sonic Teams continues attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole, refusing to reassess the situation, opting instead to try fitting it into different round holes in the hope that it will eventually fit, despite fans' warnings to the contrary only to begrudging accept that it might work this time around.

[@derple8524]

Yeah, not falling for this anymore. After Superstars I completely don't trust Sonic Team or mainly Sega to do Sonic right in anything whether it's a 3D game, 2D game, heck even a re-release of an old game, and the fact they ruined my childhood game Sonic Colors with Ultimate I doubt Sonic Generations is gonna be good, or any game in the future

[@JadeJovian]

@@derple8524 Superstars wasn't even developed by Sonic Team lmao

[@LobotomyTC]

First of all, let me thank you for making one of these videos and having enough understanding of this concept to be able to actually justify making it. Too many people make these video essays on Sonic Gameplay, very clearly do not know what they want, merely complain, and worse, have absolutely 0 understanding of game design in general. All that being said, I see Sonic Frontiers (v1.40 specifically) as being the best attempt to make Sonic work in 3D. Not Classic Sonic's gameplay, necessarily, but Classic Sonic's nature as a character and portrayal in the world. What I mean by this, is that Sonic CD's cutscenes, Sonic X and the Sonic OVA DO NOT portray his in-game movements at all. Very little sense of momentum or weight to his animated actions, What they do instead, is portray very quick, vectored/splined movement across a landscape, like a cannonball that can stop and turn. Shagging ass from a mountain down to a valley, and being able to control whether or not you stick to the ground when you run over a bump in terrain (the primary difference between boosting, rolling, and spindashing, by the way) is what gives you true freedom of movement. Classic Sonic is deep inside that gameplay style, just buried. All of the fundamental pieces are in place for any of the past boost titles to be that Classic Sonic in 3D game you want, but Sonic Team really loves getting in its own way. I don't think this is a "problem." This is just a different kind of game entirely. I agree that we need some 3D Classic Sonic momentum-based games, but I wouldn't give up Unleashed, Generations, or Frontiers for that. I think they are their own thing, and I think that's a-ok, as long as SEGA learns the difference, which I think they are beginning to do.

[@Soniman001]

Personally I think going after SA1’s art style should be a civil offense

[@lynxzanimated]

Man, this guy needs to become a philosopher because he really turns my thoughts into words.

[@seanimo8579]

The funny thing is they actually noticed these issues in Frontiers; most of the optimal paths in cyberspace require you to AVOID springs and enemies. Even the official Sonic Speed Strats video discourages players from using the homing attack on enemies.

[@RetroMagnus761]

Honestly I feel like after the adventure games they wanted to try something new with each new installment but just didn't know what to do or what direction to take

[@snakey888]

After? The sa games themselves are examples of them wanting to try new things. I mean, sa1 has so much random stuff thrown in it it's like they wanted to make anything but a Sonic game.

[@stanley8006]

Mr telekinesis man, I was the fellow chat member in your prime stream telling you to check out a specific momentum platformer which I had special hands on experience with at the most recent Games Developers Conference in sf. I god my hands on an early access version of HASTE broken worlds. Please check out gameplay footage of that game, because playing it with a controller felt 82 times more satisfying than what you got to see through a video. This is an excellent essay by the way. Fantastic work, and I am eagerly awaiting whatever the next project will look like from Evening star. I haven’t had as much fun as I did in Pennys Big Breakaway in decades, that game will forever have a special place in my heart.

[@telekinesticman]

Thank you! Yeah, I've got Haste on my wishlist already, and I remember seeing videos of it on Twitter a while back. It looks great!

[@derple8524]

Penny's Big Breakaway is everything I love in speedy platforming

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

While I can't agree on every last point-for example, the notion that loops are an obstacle is WAY overblown if even in the older games you can count on one hand the number of zones where this was even the least genuinely so, and that Sonic Adventure's world design was some sort of betrayal of the classics when in reality Sonic was always meant to inhabit a modern world that mixed the mundane and the madcap, INCLUDING humans-you ARE hitting the mark when it comes to most gameplay and identity issues with Sonic. However, I have some addendums to make to your points, so brace yourself: -I believe why, in Adventure 1, hitting Badniks became a momentum killer stems from two other ways the series tried to adapt to 3D: more horizontally-oriented level design to take advantage of 3D space, and the straight-behind-the-back default camerawork. They make it more important and more difficult, respectively, to properly judge distance. Thus they designed physics and areas in ways to diminish actually needing to make those judgments instead of figuring out how to make said judgments easier. EDIT: Yes, drop shadows are there, in most Sonic games anyway, but they're no guarantee with the possibilities for speed and height as well as how wild the camera can get, plus they botched how the camera adapts to jumping by not having it be aimed already above Sonic when he's grounded and instead constantly panning with him, thus it fails to sufficiently show where he's actually headed vertically. Masahiro Sakurai touched upon the camera issue in his On Creating Games series. -THANK YOU for calling out the Spam Dash. The Spin Dash is supposed to be a GAMBLE that stopping for a bit will make you faster overall. Yet almost EVERYONE I'd met in this blasted fanbase praises the Spam Dash because they hate losing raw speed for even a microsecond and "unlike the Boost it takes AcTuAl sKiLl!!1". Yeah, because _mashing_ a button instead of holding it is _SO SKILLFUL._ I hate when people insist good Sonic play is about simply maintaining raw speed because that's rarely the best way to land a good time in a race with literal twists and turns all over. -Speaking of the Boost, I don't believe it's a totally off-track (speaking of racing, too, lol) idea. It's just in the wrong form. It should be a momentary non-invincible speed burst with cooldown, with the Strike Dash/Peel-Out and Spin Dash still being faster, so it's there more for an immediate start, speed maintenance and finer control. And it should also be your Parkour button, both from the ground and from an Air Dash, something Frontiers actually got right and indeed may have been part of the original intent for Lost World. -And speaking of Frontiers, while I get frustration over apparent indecisiveness regarding controls, I don't believe the control sliders are a bad thing for accessibility. EDIT: Many modern games have stuff like that, including the Splatoon games despite them being competitively-oriented Nintendo exclusives. It's to the degree that it is in Frontiers in part because of how hard it can be to keep speed under control, though, yes, the fan fights over how Sonic should handle are also a factor. But I'm fine with that. END EDIT Particularly for Frontiers, I don't believe simply navigating the islands was intended to be part of its "real" challenge, and apart from the patched-in jump deceleration slider because of that affecting Cyber Space as well, that's the only problem of Frontiers the control tweaking really solves. -When it comes to franchise identity, many fans, especially post-Genesis fans, are more focused on Sonic himself and his personality than on his world (ahem) or even gameplay. They see him as an ever-optimistic, inspiring teen superhero that loves to live fast, him being born as a video game character not mattering so much. Which is why they don't mind so much the fact that his friends were nerfed in Adventure 2 to be less like him: whatever keeps Sonic unique in that regard. So you may be marching out to lose that battle. Which is a fucking shame; while that assessment of Sonic's personality isn't wrong nor is that personality to any degree trivial to his identity or appeal, the truth is that Sonic NEEDS his friends to be variations on him for his franchise to survive and thrive, both for gameplay and for story. They can add variety to his own standard playstyle, either as loners or in combination with one another, as the games that have them be like that make obvious. And to facilitate that, Sonic and Shadow need standard flight moves-I propose a one-shot-per-jump, aimable-while-charging Air Spin Dash for Sonic and a Triple Spin Jump with the ability to sharply change direction on the air jumps, such turning possibly aided by the shoe jets, for Shadow; such moves would be about speed over ease of control in line with playing as a seasoned speed specialist like Sonic-so levels that can be a fair and decent challenge for all characters can be made. EDIT: This approach is needed as basic Sonic gameplay is an extreme specialization of basic Mario play, emphasizing inherent mobility over powerups as having the former greatly diminishes the impact of the latter-not to say more powerup-oriented play a la Colors can't work on occasion. END EDIT Side playstyles can still exist when the story calls for them as usual, but the usual running playstyle should stay the norm. And as a speed-oriented hero, Sonic's partners absolutely should be able to keep up with him on the regular, and in any case, even though they're all like a family of sorts, he shouldn't have to rescue them almost as much as depend on them to help rescue others. It's OK for them to have problems-they're young, too-but not to the point where they become part of the rabble Sonic saves on a regular basis, and Sonic ought to have problems now and then as well. Plus he can face real skill challenges from them instead of just from his enemies when there's down time. Good old friendly rivalry, like Street Fighter's Ryu and Ken. And Tails especially was supposed to be basically a budding eventual better Sonic as the Japanese Sonic 2 manual highly suggests, held back only by the inexperience and underdevelopment of youth but being determined and quick to overcome those regardless. Even his Sonic Jam profile doesn't name any known weaknesses for him. Because he's The Bestest Boy. ♡ Until Adventure 2 shot that all to Hell. :

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

I feel like the loop point wasn't really meant to suggest it was an obstacle as in it's a thing to get past considering most people who play a Sonic game will speed through these pretty easily but it's rather pointing out how loops were presented to the player in the classics versus the 3D games, they're bits of geometry you yourself have to build up the speed to travel through and this design along with the slopes informs the player subtly how speed and momentum play a role in traversal and because it doesn't take any movement away, players willing to experiment can figure out means to get through it quicker and thus build up more speed. They were a natural part of the design that complimented the moveset while loops in the 3D games are almost all automated and just serve to provide spectacle and nothing more with no gameplay benefit whatsoever. Same with the world design point, it's not noting that it's a betrayal, just how far it has strayed from the original world design and is pointing out how seemingly the push has been for more realism which eventually got to the point where in 06 we've got realistic humans and animals standing next to basically cartoon characters who clearly look like they were plucked from another world. Sonic has always been a blend of realistic and cartoonish but one would be kind of lying I feel if they didn't note how the 3D games really skew towards one style over the other and not the blend the 2D games have. As for the control thing, if you don't mind me jumping in with my response, it's on paper a good idea for accessibility. Giving players that level of control to tweak traversal to whatever you want is kind of neat, sort of like what you can do in mods for the decomps of the Retro Engine remakes of Sonic 1, 2 and CD. The problem comes down to two things. First, the reason Sonic Team gave comes across like such an extreme lack of confidence in their own ability to the point where they just said "Screw it, you figure it out." and next, it means that the level design can't be tailored to work to the strengths of the controls since obviously you can't account for every single variable that will be tweaked. If anything? I kind of feel like accessibility options for Sonic would be more stuff along the lines of being able to toggle on and off automation for certain segments and making the core work for both because if you're getting into a Sonic game? I feel that should come with the expectation that a bit more than other platformers, reflexes will be tested.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

@@the-aspiring-creator4249Hmm. I get your point that loops are more of a tutorializing of the physics and a way of adding speed the more you know them than any sort of actual inhibition. But then they probably shouldn't be called "obstacles" as that DOES focus on them being impeding. And the Spin Dash was made in part to allow beginners to overcome loops without needing a run-up. So loops are indeed primarily spectacle no matter how you slice it, although they do also mean to somewhat speed check if you can't quite get into a flow with the Spin Dash being there to reduce how long you get held up for screwing up, but even that aspect is diminished considering how many loops in even the old games are preceded by some sort of speed booster already, like a decline or spring. They're actually more of an obstacle if you're going BACKWARDS, which would be to get items like rings for accessing the Special Stages. To me, loops are more interesting for playing into the aspects of multiple paths/approaches and secrets with how often they come with extras, like ledges with stuff on top in the 2D games. It's really the QUARTERPIPES that are more of a genuine speed check for going so much more straight vertical. Try running up THOSE without help. The world design may look more realistic in general in the Adventure era games, but it's still plenty colorful with wacky twisting, free-floating objects and bonkers devices. That's the power of Chaos energy for you, doing what it says on the tin. Not every environment has to have funky soil patterns and acid-trippy plants like the various Hills to be Sonic-ish. It's not like realism in that sense was a new thing to Sonic, either. Even Sonic 1 has some more humble-looking environments in the forms of Marble and Star Light. Plus the whole deal with the Chao being able to copy other creatures' DNA explains how they and the cartoony animals, and Eggman, can exist among plainer-looking beings. That's why I call the former "Chaolings". It's freaking brilliant. Even Frontiers leans into that idea with the Ancients and how the Titan pilots and Master King resemble earlier incarnations of the main Sonic four and Eggman, although that's a stupidly edgy approach to highlighting the concept. On the accessibility issue, I get the sense we're dealing with a Frontiers-specific problem here, not an overall Sonic problem. Frontiers seems like it was made as a proof of concept/idea testing ground more than as a fullfledged game, with the major focuses being experimentation and the openly self-aware story, only taking so long because the pandemic slowed things down and to let the movies and Colors Ultimate have the spotlight for a decent bit as well, which explains the largely boring design of the Starfall Islands and the continuation of nostalgia reuse in Cyber Space. Forces, despite being the tonal opposite of Frontiers, seems like it was made similarly, as a story-focused celebration game as opposed to Generations being a celebratory game which leaned harder into gameplay, with Mania being a balanced bridge between both-something worth highlighting lest you get led to take the control issue for a major crisis because of how it got really strong in Forces as well. So any impression of accessibility being poorly done in Frontiers is likely moot, coming down to typical poor communication on Sega's part. Though all that doesn't really excuse full price even with the update patching, unless it was needed THAT badly to keep Sega from being in debt after dropping a cold, hard hundred billion rings for Rovio. :

[@feller11]

Great thoughts about gameplay, don't agree with the artstyle opinion. Sonic 2 was already moving away from surrealism, and Sonic 3 looks much more like Sonic Adventure than Sonic 1

[@telekinesticman]

I think I cut out quite a bit from that section to save time, because I was mostly here to discuss gameplay, but you're right about Sonic 3 already being more realistic than the previous games. The "classic" style is quite broad - Sonic 1 and CD are much more surreal than the other games, with 2 and 3 focusing more on the mechanical and natural detail. This is why I described the aesthetic as "eclectic", as it's borrowing from so many different inspirations to create something new and appealing. The point though is that Sonic 3 still looks a lot more cartoony and colourful than most of Adventure 1, just look at something like Launch Base or Mushroom Hill. Again, the prototype of Windy Valley looks *way* more like a "Sonic level" than most of Adventure.

[@Prime_Legend]

@@telekinesticman I think you're missing something here. The guy above said that Sonic was becoming MORE REALISTIC with every title, starting with Sonic 2. It's obvious Sonic team wanted to make sonic's environment more realistic with every title as technology improved, so they did that when coming into 3D.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

It’s like you took the words right out of my mouth. Sonic Frontiers lacks even the most basic Slope Physics yet many fans say it’s the Best he’s ever controlled, sometimes I want to agree with them but then I remember the dozen physics sliders and think how Frontiers doesn’t really have a set of Physics.

[@bunsmasterbunny]

I like the more realistic look of the 3D games and their more serious stories with humans. It fits Sonic and his cool feel. Not every game needs to go for the classic art style.

[@bowserbreaker2515]

Me too. My problem with the classic games is that I just don't like that art style too much. I do love Generations and Unleashes styles, though.

[@entertainer_ev2747]

Nah even tho I agree with some of Caelum's points it feels like most of this vid comes down to "hey either it gotta be Classic Sonic inspired or it ain't legit"

[@felixdaniels37]

Care to explain HOW any if that fits Sonic's "cool" factor? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but the fact that basically every Sonic game that even approaches realism and serious stories ends up being relentlessly mocked seems to feed into the exact opposite. In trying so hard to make Sonic "cool" by changing his identity to appeal to surface level trends, he only ends up feeling lame.

[@bowserbreaker2515]

@@entertainer_ev2747 I agree. I don't even like Classic Sonic that much, so I prefer something more unique.

[@telekinesticman]

I don't see how Classic Sonic is less unique than realistic cities and flat plains of grass, but to each their own, I guess.

[@Anakin_TheChosenOne1]

It seems like you haven't played Sonic Unleashed, since in the daytime stages, Sonic's Momentum is practically infinite, as long as you have enough rings to charge Sonic's boost. Sonic can defeat most enemies with the boost and even when he uses the air dash, when he falls he doesn't lose Momentum and continues at a high speed, unlike Sonic Colors and Generations, where when you use the air dash with boost and Sonic falls he loses all of his speed. So, I believe you were mistaken in not having a 3D Sonic game where Sonic maintains his speed at all times.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

That's a take on it but not exactly what's being talked about. Plus, to progress in Unleashed at least in the HD version, you are required to slow down which the game clearly doesn't want you to do since Sonic's control when he's not boosting is fairly stiff. Also it still has problems with homing attacks not preserving momentum and automation.

[@RianaDorsey]

Great analysis. Love the adventure games to death, never once have given thought to how the springs were scripted nor how the homing attack disrupts momentum. Thanks for giving me a new perspective!

[@kraken__lac]

"if you think its ridiculous for me to joke that the next sonic game will play like hell divers" SIKE that's the wrong number, its fall guys

[@OkiVerser]

Just finished it, great job, might be your best Sonic video in terms of topic because I don't see many that talk about this, and I myself don't have a lot to say I mostly agree with it, but especially thank you for talking about the "Sonic can be anything" point, because it's such a nothing point, I know we can't expect every game to be the same thing but there should be core elements of a series that you BUILD on top of to truly make an evolution of the gameplay, not completely abandon them and just change for the sake of "evolution" (which wouldn't even apply under the definition of evolution, lol) or chasing trends, and while it's hard, I hope we get to see Sonic consistently do it in the future outside of great fan games.

[@pizzasteak4566]

So I have question. There are naturally slower paths, slow platforming sections, and the spindash (a move which requires you to nearly completely stop to use it). in the classic games. And these things would naturally break the flow of the game as at the very least they require you to slow down. So would you say you like these sections

[@snakey888]

The thing is, with sufficient knowledge and skill, you can maintain a good amount of your speed during the more demanding sections, while avoiding the slow ones. Those sections are necessary for speed to be representative of player's mastery of the game.

[@pizzasteak4566]

@ thanks for the reply. But that brings up a new issue: only people that are good at the games get to have fun. A lot of the obstacles that break up are only that are simply “do you remember if a thing was here” or require extremely high skill in order to keep up speed. Not to mention your punishment is a complete loss of speed. Not to mention the slower parts aren’t just slower because they are long sections, they are slower because they force the average player to go slower with platform or obstacles that deemphasized speed. I’m not denying that you can go fast in these game. but how can say these game are good when the “good part” is only available to like 20% of its players.

[@snakey888]

@@pizzasteak4566 There are some faulty assumptions being made here. First off, just because the game does not enforce a particular speed or flow, does not mean it isn't fun. Even the so called "slower parts" can be, and usually are, engaging, interesting and satisfying to navigate, even if you are not going fast. The fact that as your skill improves, and you are able to make the "slow parts" into fast parts, enforces the idea of speed as something you earn, creating an incentive to improve and increasing the replay value. As such, the "good part" is available to all its players. Not only are the "slow parts" fun and interesting to navigate, a slow playstyle is not only a valid alternative, but a rewarding one as well because there is a lot to explore and find. If the game enforced a certain speed or flow, it would be worse. Not only would it limit player freedom and agency, it would cheapen the whole concept of speed, and reduce it to more spectacle than substance as is the case of most modern Sonic games (1999 - today).

[@pizzasteak4566]

⁠​⁠@@snakey888​​⁠​⁠​⁠yeah I don’t disagree with that. I can also enjoy the more slower paced sections in Sonic games. I’m simply trying to understand why classic sonic gets a pass while certain modern games don’t. For example, the homing attack. In nearly every instance that I can think of where the homing attack is used, you don’t need the homing attack to proceed. What also adds confusion is how the crux of the argument is about how sonic is about flow when evidently it is not. Also while there are instances of being able to make the slow parts something I would consider fast, there are also many instances where simply you can’t achieve that without putting an unreasonable amount of time in to these levels

[@snakey888]

@@pizzasteak4566 To be fair, the good Sonic games have quite a nice flow to them for a good portion of the levels, especially if one is proficient at the game. There are several reasons why modern Sonic games don't get a pass, while classic games do are, one of them is that speed is earned. You cannot just press a button that grants you full speed. Another is physics and automation, whereas the classic Sonic games have great physics and sense of momentum, modern Sonic have bunch of automation in forms of scripts, dash pads etc that override your momentum very often, while the physics themselves are usually wonky and inert a lot of times.

[@Laekith]

Good video, and I agree with everything you said about the gameplay and the franchise split, but I honestly love Sonic in more realistic environments. I think SA1, Unleashed and Frontiers have the best aesthetics in the entire series, barring Mania cause Mania is just too good, and Sega has always blended cartooniness and realism really damn well.

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

yes thank you sonic in city is cool

[@bluudevil4483]

​@@fazelfarrokhi1998 goofy

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@fazelfarrokhi1998agree

[@Kwizzy8406]

This is a great way of explaining the thing we are missing from every 3D sonic game, but I think you’re missing one thing and ironically, it’s speed. Let’s say you could go through a loop without automation, the best example I can think of this is sonic simulator. Most of the time rather than going through the loop, you’re going to run off it. You could add rails to it to make it easier, but that would still cost the illusion of total free control as inevitably you will still need to be guided. If you think using the spin dash to break the game was bad, imagine it with total control. Remember, the game was already criticized back then, imagine if you could just break it on a whim. The 2D games weren’t restrictive because they were restrictive by being 2D. When you put that into 3D, even with those fan games, you just end up breaking the game at some point or another. What I’m saying is you forgot to mention how speed fundamentally feels like it goes against platforming. Mario works so well because he feels like the definition of a platformer. Jumping on one plane to another with careful but fun precision. That can be modified in so many ways, but in Sonic’s case? He always needs to have speed in a type of game that demands careful and precise platforming.

[@fronkus123]

Excellent video and analysis as always. I’m so glad you brought up the harsh difference in aesthetics and tone between classic and modern. Colors was the last game we got that brought back those whimsical, colorful, and ORIGINAL level themes. If only the gameplay were at the same level.

[@acgon]

Sonic was always about going fast and feeling cool. Building momentum rolling down slopes and etc is a way of achieving that, but it's not like the newer games are fully automated either. I agree we could try a more close to classic approach, but Frontiers and Shadow gens are so much fun in a way the classic games couldn't.

[@wijinsama]

If you think about it, Sonic is one of the last few gaming franchise that tries to be ambitious no matter through trial and error.

[@AlexDKong]

But at what cost like looking at that statement at face value it sounds like a good thing as it leads one to think that hey they're always pushing to be at the cutting edge and break new boundaries. But when u really look at it for what it is there motives for doing new stuff more often then not is just based from their insecurities in their product and throwing away any concept or integral parts of a concept when things don't go the way they want them to not seeing the value of what that concept could be if they dusted themselves off learned from their mistakes and tried again

[@wijinsama]

@@AlexDKong You say that but then will probably complain about other franchises not tryna do anything different.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

@@wijinsamaProbably because those other franchises are consistently good lmao

[@wijinsama]

@@Terminal_Apotos ......even though nowadays y'all are saying gaming is dead and these franchises don't try new things.....that doesn't add up to what is being said NOW I'm about gaming

[@Terminal_Apotos]

@@wijinsama When did I ever say that? You’re basing all your arguments on assumptions. You even contradict yourself by assuming I think gaming is dead when I literally said, “other franchises are consistently good.”

[@mobas07]

Gonna have to disagree with this. The 2D and 3D Sonic games are fundamentally different, just like the 2D and 3D Mario games are different. When I play a 2D Sonic game, I expect things to work in a certain way, the basic m word type physics those games have always had. But you can't play Generations or Frontiers with those same expectations. For example, the homing attack does stop you if you use it, but in Generations you can boost through enemies, you shouldn't be stopping to attack random enemies in the first place it just wastes time. As for loops, if they weren't scripted you'd run the risk of slipping off, an issue not present in 2D games since you'd just hold right anyway. Homing attack chains also wouldn't work if you kept your m word after a homing attack. Basically think of it like this, when playing Frontiers the titan fights were amazing and I loved them, but i wouldn't then complain that Sonic Superstars doesn't have things like that. Modern Sonic is more focussed on speed and set pieces rather than m word, and that's fine, a lot of people like them. I just hate this idea that the first few Sonic games are the gold standard and everything has to work the way they did.

[@telekinesticman]

Homing Attack chains are some of the most boring level design tropes in the series. I'd be happy if buffing the Homing Attack meant removing them entirely. They stink. I also discussed the Mario comparison within the video itself. Mario's change felt purposeful in order to embrace 3D movement. Later 3D Mario's incorporated more of the missing 2D elements that 64 lacked. Sonic has never really done the same outside of just reusing levels and badniks.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

First, just say momentum. It's not a slur. Second, I feel like you missed where he said that all the changes and omissions wouldn't be a problem if future games built upon the foundation laid. If SA2 took the foundation laid by the first and really improved upon it with tighter controls, level design that gives you the expansiveness of SA1 but with more of the freedom of the classic games? This would be a very different conversation. The problem is Sonic as a franchise hasn't really made those improvements and issues like this have been present since SA1. Think about this, it took all the way until Frontiers for them to give you the option to have Sonic's jump carry his momentum. Every game up until this point, even Frontiers before patches operated without it and as for certain functions? Why rely on them? Like why rely on homing attack chains? Why rely on boosting through a level? Yes speed is important but Sonic has always been a speed AND platforming series with alternate paths.

[@mobas07]

Because the boost is fun. Drifting, sliding and quickstepping between hazards and enemies while boosting is way more fun than any of the Classic Sonic games. Also he missed a huge point about jump deceleration in Frontiers. It's Lost World, basically in Colours, Generations and Unleashed, you would lose speed while jumping but not while short hopping, this meant that if you were good and timed your short hops, you could maintain a boost and not lose any speed, but if you did a big jump you would lose speed. This also prevented you from boosting and then jumping to fly over the entire level like you can in Frontiers. Lost World completely removed short hopping, Forces was built on the same engine so also didn't have short hopping but this was fine because you kept your boost while jumping and the air boost was also unlimited. Here's where the real problem started, in Frontiers they nerfed the air boost and also made it so you couldn't maintain your boost while jumping. They also gave the big jump deceleration like the older boost games, the thing is, they never added short hopping back so it was horrible, even if you only jumped for a second you'd lose all your speed. They then tried to fix this by giving you the jump deceleration slider but this meant you could spindash jump and just fly over the entire level leading to the Forces issue all over again. I do agree with the point on building though. Forces and Frontiers should have improved on Generations and added new stuff but completely failed in that regard.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@mobas07 Honestly that's more of a problem with Frontiers' design than anything. By having it be completely custom, the developers can't really account for every single change or tweak someone can make. However this is something that could be built upon in future games... assuming Sonic Team will remember to actually build upon features instead of just doing more of the same but with added gimmicks. As for boosting? I agree it's fun but I'm more meaning from the perspective of just boosting through mooks. It's fun in those bursts of speed but I don't think it's super engaging, especially not without path variety or platforming. I think that's the thing about short hopping. For one, it's there yes but it's mainly there for one purpose, to keep you going forward. Now this does vary of course. Individual levels of Unleashed, Colors and most of Generations I'd say really benefit because there is that variety but when you get those levels that are just propelling yourself down a straight line and the only thing is keeping the speed down that straight line? It's not as invigorating at least to me.

[@mobas07]

Honestly I wouldn't say that, homing attack chains are better than those spinning tops and wheel things in marble garden, or being bumped all over the place in collision chaos or carnival night. It's just a short segment of a larger stage, as long as it's not Sonic 4 where there are homing attack chains constantly then that's fine. As for Mario, I'm not saying the changes lacked purpose but they did fundamentally change the game. Mario 64 is a game that a lot of people like but as someone who only likes the 2D Mario games I don't like it at all. It's no longer about going through a level to try and get to the end, now you have to collect stars to open doors and there's a hub world in Peach's castle, it's a very different experience. But that's exactly how I feel with 3D and 2D Sonic, just because you like one it doesn't necessarily mean you'll like the other and that's never bugged me. Especially now that they're continuing to make new Classic Sonic games (though I agree with your point about them not being quite right compared to the actual Classics). Like Classic Sonic in Generations doesn't play like normal Classic Sonic at all but I still really like it. Honestly I almost enjoy it more than the original games. The spindash is way more powerful and there are grind rails and boost rings. Rolling down slopes is way less emphasised, you instead want to try and maintain the speed you generate with a spindash for as long as possible by quickly reacting to oncoming obstacles with well timed jumps. I basically just feel like you're taking a lot of expectations from the Classic games, pointing out how the modern games don't do them, and then just saying that the modern games are bad because they don't have the things the classic games did, even though they have tons of other things which the classic games don't have.. They're not worse, they're just different.

[@TakinDrasticMeasurez]

SA1 and SA2 felt the closest we got to a good transition from 2d to 3d, and I feel like if they would’ve kept improving on that formula, then they would’ve had something pretty solid. The fact that they keep deciding to abandon gameplay every few games puts the series into a “reboot” cycle every few years where they have to keep trying to experiment and rework the movement from scratch every few years.

[@snakey888]

Sa2 regressed the already very flawed "formula" quite a bit, effectively showing it had no future.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@snakey888 I wouldn't say so, it's more that SA2 made improvements in some areas... and went backwards in a lot of ways. SA1's level design for example is nice and open, loaded with pathways and goodies to discover that reward the player's curiosity like the classics. SA2? Just goes linear and now the levels deliver high speed thrills but they don't have much going for them. SA1 with the lightspeed dash made something that works for Sonic's simplistic gameplay due to how it's activated but it is a little stop and go. SA2 fixed this by making it instaneous... but it comes at the expense of being mapped to one button and being somewhat finicky to trigger because of it. SA1... admittedly had too many characters and it led to clearly some having less attention than others and in some cases the gameplay was not fitting of Sonic's fundamentals. SA2 made a good choice in cutting them down but then it ran into the issue of gimping certain mechanics that worked well in the previous and there's still the linearity problem. If SA2 really built upon SA1's level design and ironed out the quirks? They easily would've had a great sequel because the foundation is there but it's like SEGA is allergic to building upon it.

[@snakey888]

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 Thing is, sa2 has less gameplay styles, but the ones that are there stray even further from Sonic's fundamentals, and they make up a significantly larger portion of the game, 2/3rds rather than sa1's 1/2. Even the lightspeed dash being instantaneous isn't necessarily an improvement, seeing as it fuels the issue of automation. The only significant improvement sa2 did over sa1 was in the technical-graphical department: doubled the framerate, longer draw distance, continuous stages and the like.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@snakey888 To be fair, that sums up the problems with Sonic Team's approach to SA2 in general. For every improvement it makes, there's a caveat. Like the thing about the lightspeed dash to me is that it is an improvement to make it instaneous and I've seen in fan projects and romhacks how it can be a fun move that feels like a natural part of Sonic's moveset and can work with a momentum based system. The problem is Sonic Team just chose to make it a move you do to occasionally get over a pit or get a point bonus. So in a way the more I think about it, I think I agree with your assessment of the style... in the sense that there was no hope for it with Sonic Team or at least Sonic Team in terms of how it currently works.

[@oswald-kp1bm]

"Sonic is Sonic" "Sonic can be anything" "...Except when it's a classic Sonic inspired game, that's nostalgia pandering" Excellent video as always

[@telekinesticman]

Yep. 20+ years of Modern Sonic, god forbid anyone wants a game that looks and plays more like the classics which made Sonic a household name in the first place.

[@oswald-kp1bm]

@@telekinesticman Two decades of random ideas and playstyles, but a 3D game faithful to Sonic's roots is the one game we can't have

[@derple8524]

​@@oswald-kp1bmapparently it's propaganda, and some form of media Sonic can't exist in. Something about rocking the boat, but it's all theorizing that could be misconceptionalized. Even if that's the case if we got a game like what we want in 3D Sonic in terms of playing to his strengths they're still getting more Sonic so I don't know what's up with them

[@demetriusnp49]

As great as Generations was, it what caused Sega to make this split with Classic and Modern. Ironically, it made things “worse” without meaning to.

[@Doxthefox]

They did fix knuckles gliding in a patch update in case you didn’t know

[@telekinesticman]

That's nice, but the fact they had to patch it at all is quite worrying. Same with the jump decel and spindash. The flying and gliding in Dream Team also feels pretty awful, too.

[@invalidfile]

Kind of true, but the funny thing is the beta version of Knuckles didn’t even have a glide startup animation

[@Doxthefox]

@@telekinesticman yeah but hey it’s better than nothing at least

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@Doxthefox facts

[@PaperADRiAN]

@@Doxthefox congrats to your launch mighty no 9

[@Hikouma]

I'm currently 14 minutes in to this video So far, it seems most of your complaints seem to be about missing things that would be awful to control in 3D. The truth is, 2D Sonic in 3D does not work. There are camera issues, control issues, level design issues and other things that are very hard to confront when you try adapting everything from the 2d games into 3D. Automation for example, in Sonic Adventure, they rely on it because doing loops in 3D with the camera placed behind Sonic in disorienting, and you have to make them big enough for the player to not go flying off of them on accident, which places certain restrictions on level design and anesthetics. Continuing the video now.

[@section6668]

He never said to incorporate *everything* from 2d to 3d. He brought up games like Metriod Prime, Botw, and Mario 64 as examples of games that changed greatly to accommodate 3D. Also this is just not true, many fangames have already showcased that you can incorporate many elements of classic sonic into 3d.

[@Butwhythough881]

I think there are ways to make 3D Sonic feel more consistent. I feel like having a style and aesthetic to Sonic Heroes or even Unleashed in some places could be a good even ground for locations should they continue with the open zone format from Frontiers. Also including more classic elements like Loops, Corkscrews, and half pipe ramps that are naturally implemented in the world instead of being random pieces of platforms and grind rails and lose a lot of the automation. In terms of Sonic’s moves, while they could improve on the combat in Frontiers to make it more fast paced and less tedious, I feel having Sonic’s moveset from the Genesis games with elements of Adventure, Heroes, and the Boost games would be beneficial. The homing attack could have different properties depending on how fast you’re going or whether or not you’re airborne. For example, using a homing attack while grounded and boosting will allow you to crash through enemies without bouncing you upward and killing your speed. An airborne homing attack would function more like how it is in Adventure 2 or Unleashed. The Boost and Spin Dash/Drop Dash can also co-exist by having their own unique pros and cons. The boost, while being much faster than the Spin/Drop Dash, doesn’t allow you to plow through enemies like unleashed but rather functions like the standard boost in Frontiers allowing for quick movement and for a quick escape if on the brink of death. It can also be used for Lost World style but majorly improved. The Spin Dash might not be as fast as the boost but it’s more durable and can be used to plow through enemies or be used as a way to roll or break through weak rocks or material in the open zone to discover new pathways similar to the Genesis games, and also keeping in line with Sonic’s main defense mechanism in those games. As for the drop dash, it can be cancelled by letting go of the jump button. You could also use it to curl up into a ball if vulnerable in the air, similar to the ball curl ability in Triple Trouble and be charged like a normal drop dash. Other than that, having the elemental shields, and creating environments that take full advantage of this moveset without a crap ton of automation and you could have gold.

[@Astro_Crunch]

Man, has it really been almost 10 years since Sonic Spitball? I remember watching those videos when I was a teenager, getting all bright-eyed thinking about how different things could be for Sonic in several years and yet, miraculously, those videos are just as relevant now as they were back then lol

[@VirtuousAezon]

Jesus... am I gonna be saying this too in the future? I'm always hoping we get actually good 3D sonic games but I haven't gotten one since generations when I was just a kid.

[@GrazHero]

This is the type of discussion I wish there was more of. Some of the points in this video are also mirrored in Running Shine's Sonic Adventure review, which I highly recommend if you haven't seen it. I'm really passionate about the idea of improving on 3D Sonic in a way that captures the game design essence of the Genesis games.

[@DevasiaMentalityGaming]

I gave this video a fair shake, and I'll grant the vast majority of your points are entirely agreeable, BUT despite my love of Sonic fan games that do deliver on the shortcomings of 3D sonic as he's become I must also note that from my personal experience there's a lot of over-correcting that's been done that makes me realize that maybe, JUST MAYBE some of the things that we hold as issues with 3D Sonic games are perhaps more necessary than we'd like to believe.

[@Kneevirus]

They really need to get rid of that slider shit and have confidence in their controls you're right

[@JadeJovian]

They need to get rid of options in a video game. Even though the default physics are pretty good.

[@JakeThehedgehog-m1x]

@@JadeJovian why is everyone against control options!? this isn't something new other games has these options too!

[@cayden6057]

Don't agree with every single argument here, but it's refreshing to see someone take a critical look at these games and address how little they've been able to evolve since 1998. The point you made about the aesthetics and how we lost the surreal, colorful, and very unique artstyle from the classics for an ugly realism is so satisfying to hear out loud for once, same with how crazy it is that a mobile developer like Hardlight was able to get closer to actually iterating on Adventure's gameplay than anything Sonic Team has attempted. I only wish this kind of discussion was more common among fans

[@TheSultan1470]

ok lol

[@sle3pyheadart]

I love these videos. They are very well made and the topics at hand are always fun to think about, (especially the ones unrelated to Sonic lol) I think there is much to be discussed about what it means to preserve, adapt, and change conventions in legacy media. Also, gotta love the 2 second Outer Wilds footage :p

[@telekinesticman]

At this point it's a mandatory inclusion in every video, because I don't think I'll ever make a video about it on its own. I have no idea what I could possibly add that would be worthwhile and interesting. It's the best game ever made, period. Although I hear Animal Well is very similar, so I'll definitely be trying that soon too.

[@sle3pyheadart]

@@telekinesticman You probably already thought of this, but maybe just talk about your personal journey through the game? How you found it, your playthrough, and what you got out of it? I think thats something interesting and new. Animal Well is something I've never heard of, but I might try it out some day

[@Laiser]

This video was great. I grew up with the 3D titles first, so I've always liked them and what they have to offer, but I always get the feeling that they're not at their fullest potential, especially when juxtaposed with fangames like Sonic GT that seemingly just 'get' Sonic better than most 3D titles. The tipping point for me has been Sonic Frontiers. There is a lot to like about Frontiers, but the gameplay does not seem to be one of them, I'm yet to play the game myself, but I've been put off by the sliders and customization in Sonic's control. It just screams a lack of confidence from the developers to make Sonic fun to play, and instead trying to put that burden on the players. The fact that jump deceleration just didn't exist before and you just lost all momentum when jumping originally is comically abysmal.

[@nerodoesart5886]

Morio Kishimoto in a interview did say that they undergo many playtests and couldn't figure out what controls and physics worked for a Sonic game, so they gave up and let the player decide. He then says that they didn't give up on cyberspace meaning that they put more effort in Cyberspace than the Open Zone, but if they didn't have that setting then the cyberspace controls would be the open Zone controls.