Atonality explained in 7 minutes

SUPPORT THIS CHANNEL:
www.samuelandreyev.com/donate
/ samuelandreyev
NEW ALBUM OUT NOW
Order a physical copy:
www.kairos-music.com/cds/0015...
Listen on Spotify:
open.spotify.com/album/42kfms...
Listen on iTunes:
itunes.apple.com/fr/album/sam...
Samuel Andreyev's website:
www.samuelandreyev.com
Follow Samuel on Twitter:
/ samuelandreyev

[@octave11thpianist58]

Take a shot every single time he blinks

[@EpixManz]

dead in the first 3 seconds

[@eppiehemsley6556]

Blinking is said to be an indication of telling lies. Perhaps he doesn't believe what he's saying?!

[@kentcampbell122]

I gamed your try

[@Danny-fg4gg]

@@kentcampbell122 oh no 😂😂😂

[@BIadelores]

Tell me you want me to die without telling me you want me to die

[@LudmillaTSF]

I don’t care about the blinking AND that is a HELL of a good music lesson!

[@robkunkel8833]

He is probably experiencing the electrical component dry heating system people in cities have grown to accept. Blinking comments are useful?

[@eppiehemsley6556]

@@robkunkel8833 He's a blinking interesting bloke.

[@imnothere202]

I CARE ABOUT THE BLINKING

[@LudmillaTSF]

@@imnothere202 I’m sorry for you :d

[@FernieCanto]

That was a brilliant video. Also, kudos for mentioning the "obsession" with harmony in detriment of other aspects. There are a lot of KZbin channels about music theory, but almost all of them talk *exclusively* about harmony, and when I say "harmony", I mean *functional harmony* as if it's the only possible kind. This is getting really absurd.

[@karolakkolo123]

It's just like physics youtube channels talking only about quantum mechanics all the time

[@machida5114]

@@karolakkolo123 Atonal music (contemporary music) and quantum mechanics (modern physics) have something in common.

[@karolakkolo123]

@@machida5114 what exactly?

[@machida5114]

@@karolakkolo123 Ideas need to be expressed in that language (style). This was Schoenberg said.

[@machida5114]

"The language(style) of contemporary music is complex because the ideas it expresses are complex."

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I would define the opening examples as "non-tonal" rather than "atonal." Otherwise, nice concise explanation. I usually define atonality as the lack of a key centre and its associated common practice harmonic strategies. I think we shouldn't apply too rigorous definitions past that, for fear that we replace inspiration with quibbling.

[@TheStuF]

I would not distinguish between two terms that have the exact same meaning, myself. Otherwise, a decent comment :)

[@thatonetyeguy2330]

I'm feeling like this is one of the best ways to write emotional music but I could be wrong. (However the examples he uses here aren't good examples of how atonality can be emotional)

[@baloothedrummer]

Man I can’t believe how great your videos are, I love how you tackle really deep subjects with ease, and explain them in a really comprenhensive manner

[@samuel_andreyev]

I truly appreciate your kind remarks -- thank you!

[@bassoonistfromhell]

Really makes my day when i see a new video of yours come up in the subscription feed

[@machida5114]

I like this definition. “atonal(anti-tonal)”-structured to avoid or undermine listener’s tonal schemata.

[@vishmonster]

Andreyev is the closest we'll get to 'Dial-an-Epiphany.'

[@riseagainsttheunion]

excellennnntttttt. affirmed my intuition and gave me a reason as to why i have been finding myself having such a difficult time attempting to apply classical harmony to my compositions whilst trying to freely express, utilizing emotion and rhetoric as the driving force.

[@beefling5390]

Your blinking is triggering my blinking

[@srpradiopodcast6867]

I'm convinced it's some sort of subliminal message from the Deep State to my ex-wife's lawyer.

[@Davidnuhldefariacruz]

It moves with his mouth lmao

[@43forlife]

Holy cow this guy blinks like 3 times a second :O

[@JustMiluna]

Very instructional here 7 minutes of pure gold 🎶💕

[@candacejune416]

i'm taking a music appreciation class rn and this was very helpful for it, thanks!!

[@franciscosanchezcabrera2157]

Great Job Samuel .Congrats

[@composerprov]

Your definition of Atonal music added to the definition I always used, mainly that an Atonal piece has no key signature and the usual tonality rules. Especially the inclusion of non-pitch sounds.

[@raultoichoa1574]

Somebody help this man cause he's definitely been kidnapped.

[@chillzillaful]

Fantastic library behind you.

[@jeffjones8062]

Since discovering your postings on KZbin, I have been tremendously delighted with your information. Have subscribed and everything. I have my PhD in musicology, and wrote my dissertation on Zappa's "Civilization", and despite that, find remarkably little to quibble with. But here, I have one. You use the term "pitch" a couple of times, and this is good, because the term refers to the actual frequencies of the notes. And "note" is a good one. at least in the equal-temperament universe, because we all can agree that., yep, that's a C, and that's a F#. But "tone" is when the note, or pitch, has a harmonic function. All those now-ancient scores of "magnificat sur le deuxieme toni" or whatnot are named for their fundamental pitch, known as the "tonic", which of course is the adjectival version of "tone". This is why when Schoenberg complained about calling his younger atonal ventures "atonal", because he said that they a have tones in them, he was confusing the notes with their function in, if not tonal, one could say harmonically coherent music. So my gripe is that a note is a tone when it has harmonic significance, and when it does not have this, it is better to refer to them as notes or pitches. At any rate, I dig your stuff immensely. Your take on Stravinsky's late music was fabulous, as was your analysis of "Pierrot Lunaire" And as for the two-hour interviews with Art Tripp and Jeff Cotten - pure gold, my undying gratitude

[@samuel_andreyev]

Very glad to hear this. Thanks for your message.

[@zacharyspencer8321]

Thanks for the educated overview. I used this video as a ‘expert opinion’ source when I got into a disagreement regarding atonality, when a stranger on Facebook asked for suggestions for atonal piano pieces to play. As a pianist, my thoughts immediately went towards the fact that a piano is basically a fixed-tone instrument, where even a glissando is simply a chromatic scale, and not truly atonal, let alone microtonal. My initial response was that “A piano can actually never be purely atonal. Even a detuning gives you a limited number of tones, which cannot be easily altered during a performance. One cannot simply 'bend' a note to get a microtonal interval. The best you can do is 'mis-tune' the notes that have two or three strings each.” Another stranger complained that I “knew what she MEANT [emphasis mine] - just recommend some pieces”. I replied that “If she's looking for piano pieces that eschew tonality, that's different from 'atonality'. Just as pieces for "prepared" piano are different.” I continued by citing some of the previously given suggestions: “For instance, one of the suggestions is the Berg Piano Sonata, which is a lot of chromaticism, whole-tone scales, and wandering key centers, giving the tonality a very unstable feel, which only resolves in the final few bars. It's not 'atonal'. “Someone else suggested Josef Matthias Hauer's 1946 work "Zwölftonspiel per pianoforte", which certainly explores 12-tone, the lack of a tonal center, all manner of motion, and constantly shifting four-tone chords. It's a 12-tone piece, and certainly not atonal. “Another person suggested Messiaen's "Vingt Regards". Also not atonal. At best it's 'non-tonal'. “And THAT's the real problem here, is that she's asking for 'atonal' piano music, when she's actually looking for piano music that is 'non-tonal", or without a tonal center. “Pianos have a limited number of strings that are hard tuned. Unlike a wind instrument or violin or timpani or a voice (or a cat), it cannot play any old microtone at whim. It CAN play microtones, but only SPECIFIC ones, ones that cannot change without retuning. “GRANTED, there's a lot of people who misuse the term 'atonality', making it a nebulous 'garbage' word. The word is inaccurately used broadly to describe music that lacks a tonal center, or key, or, even more narrowly, the term atonality describes music that does not conform to the system of tonal hierarchies that characterized classical European music between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries. “But pure atonality is the use of ALL tones or frequencies in our range of hearing, which can only be described as 'atonality', making the use of microtonality in search of a better descriptive. You know, all those frequencies heard during a glissando on a violin, or a double bass, or a police siren. THAT's atonality.” I felt that HER inaccurate and vague use of the word "atonal" was the source of the argument. Tonality vs. non-tonality vs. microtonality vs. atonality. There’s a difference. True atonal music cannot be legitimately be transcribed for piano. I'm merely a professional accompanist (for well over 50 years) with a pretty good understanding of musical styles, genres, terminology, performance practice, conducting, music analysis, and whatnot. Especially "terminology". Using words incorrectly leads to unnecessary misunderstandings. Don't use vague words, or poorly defined words when one could be specific. Care to weigh in on whether a piano piece can be atonal?

[@1234helloguy]

It's good to see such a misused term narrowed, because I think it can be useful to very specifically describe a deliberate obfuscation of perceived pitch hierarchy. The danger of the term is that there really is a pretty wide range in clarity in perceived pitch hierarchy between, say, early 18th century tonal harmony and a random pitch generator where most music called atonal lives. I also don't really perceive serial music in the same way--it certainly shifts importance away from specific pitch classes, but it creates a hyper focus on sequences of intervals. Really appreciate your analysis videos on 20th century music, by the way.

[@TheStuF]

I appreciate this comment and agree.

[@carlovazquez1586]

Very entertaining and informative. I really enjoy your videos

[@nickmaille5951]

Take a shot everytime he blinks.

[@oliverdiamond6594]

why didn't you get all the likes 😟😟

[@luismanuel2612]

Thank you for upload this video. Very interesting ...

[@murimk]

Thank you! This is great, so insightful.

[@felixdevilliers1]

I had a very good professor of music in Germany and he denied that the music of Schoenberg and friends was atonal. I still think of Schoenberg , Webern and others as atonal. It is a useful label for music that tries to find a way out of the formal patterns that Classical music established. I cannot ignore the sociological aspect of alienation from the norms. Already the Romantics felt it and were inspired by the critical way in which Beethoven and others treated their norms. Wordsworth lamented the loss of nature which led preciselyy to a romanticised.worship of nature. The effect of alienation bcomes evident in writers like Kafka and Beckett, who dispenses completely of social normality. - I think of Webern and friends as atonal in their middle period and as tweve tone composers later.- One could go on with examples like the Romantic poet Eichendorff who instinctively banned all representations of social norms from his poetry and Shelley but I would have to write a whole essay.

[@panzerkampfwagen6968]

Take a shot every time he blinks

Thanks for the reminder. Wonderfully explained!!!

[@KadeKalka]

Great video! Wouldn't mind some more videos on the topic.

[@marichristian1072]

I've been putting off listening carefully to Schoenberg compositions. But I've decided to listen while following the score, better to understand the twelve tone method of composition for which Schoenberg was an innovator. Webern is another composer for whom listening with a score truly helps to dispel the impression of randomness.

[@ukdavepianoman]

Very good, concise talk. I've never liked the word atonal - neither did Schoenberg. I think almost all music falls into a spectrum of tonality non-tonality and really it boils down to how far composers move along this spectrum. Schoenberg and Berg drifted between the two. Some of the 60s/70s avant garde stuff is hell bent on sticking at the non-tonal end.

[@Alexagrigorieff]

1:30 - drums produce pitched sounds.

[@dogbless9306]

Nobody: This dude: 😃😄😃😄😃😄😃

[@pablov1973]

"Atonal" is used as a synonymous for "amusical" piece. For me, that is a nonsense, a lot of works that I love, fall in the category of "atonal" music. I remember as it was today, the way in which Lutoslawski "Livre pour orchestre" blows my mind, I was 16 yrs old, and I never said "oh, I'm listening atonal music", no! just enjoy with that masterpiece and almost every Lutoslawski's works.

[@musiclassic1]

Well, Lutoslawski is fucking awesome

[@psijicassassin7166]

Since I can't stand listening to atonal music for five minutes, I play it at night to make my hyperactive dog sleepy. Serialist composers arrange notes usefully.

[@OriginalKingRichTv]

Master of puppets is technically atonal. You hear how many key changes are in that shit

[@realBongwater]

It is not

[@rosscraig8587]

Sir, you are adored.

[@tribudeuno]

Around 1971, two nights in a row, I heard Aaron Copland conduct the Los Angeles Philharmonic. He performed the same program each night. The first piece he performed was his own composition. I don't know if it was from the program or why I came to understand that it atonal. It was absolutely gorgeous, it shimmered. I don't think I've ever heard anything characterized as atonal being so beautiful. I wish I could remember the name of the piece, but it is many decades ago. The other two works performed were a Mozart piano concerto, and a performance of the suite from his ballet Rodeo. For the latter, Copland himself looked like he was at a hoedown, stomping his foot...

[@gepmrk]

A fellow student was trying to enlist the services of a cello player for a piece he’d written and needed to present for an end of year assessment. The cellist enquired as to how difficult to learn the part would be. The composer replied “it’s easy... it’s all atonal.”

[@marichristian1072]

As a cellist, I find your story funny and also terrifying, Arne.

[@jacobm.productions1715]

All joking aside, this was very well put together haha👌

[@richardtoth7240]

The most blinking in a video. New world record maybe? And an awesome tutorial! I've just subscribed :)

[@wyattwahlgren8883]

I don't people use the word 'atonal' to describe music they don't like. I think when people think atonal, they just mean highly dissonant, like the Rite of Spring or Serialism.

[@sebastienjanas7331]

Great video ! Could you please recommend a book describing atonal music from a composer perspective ?

[@marcbrasse747]

Complex music does not need a negative adjective. It is already chastened enough by simply being ignored.

[@Jupiter1423]

Atonal is a cool concept but ive never heard an atonal piece and enjoyed it

[@RK-if4oh]

I don't know if it's enjoyable but I've found that I like to use music to be in the eye of the storm. If you're feeling something, the music almost is a soundtrack to it. It's dope if you don't enjoy it but that's a way I've got some from it, hopefully it helps in some way.

[@Whatismusic123]

I feel like atonality is an effect of the same type as playing in a different key, and people too seriously and you cannit be both tonal and atonal, just one or the other and atonal music tends to sound like shit because of it

[@machida5114]

i'm addicted to listening

[@timotejbernat462]

3:20 Neither does the descriptor "tonal", what's your point? I agree with the ideas you discuss and this is very well put together, but I think that that line of reasoning doesn't really get at the heart of what these terms refer to and what the critical differences are

[@sopranocarmen]

do you know aabout any chanel where reading a book subtitled for improving my english but English music literachure? than,k you..Carmen

[@whycantiremainanonymous8091]

But "atonal" is an adjective for music I *do* like!

[@samuel_andreyev]

;)

[@davidbrant390]

Same

[@naomisalama430]

Exactly ;)

[@machida5114]

i'm addicted to listening to atonal

[@comment2891]

What are examples where grunge and new wave don't fall within the definition of tonality as outlined in the video? Thanks!

[@Alexagrigorieff]

I wonder if the cadenza in the first movement of Mahler's Ninth Symphony is atonal or what?

[@e.hutchence-composer8203]

This guys lips and eyelids are linked together

[@daviddemar8749]

Be advised if you dont know any music theory or anything about the history of western European art music you'll be lost. If you do know something about either one of them like I do then this video is a decent quick explanation of what atonality means.

[@georgesdelatour]

A few thoughts: Liszt composed his “Bagatelle sans tonalité” already in 1885. To most people’s ears, its atonality is relative. Yes, by the standards of Liszt’s famous Liebestraum No. 3 it’s “without tonality”. But it doesn’t sound anywhere near as fiercely, defiantly atonal - or even anti-tonal - as Boulez’s Second Piano Sonata does. What’s interesting is, Liszt chose the “without tonality” label himself. People often say the “atonal” label is nothing more than a slur, a malevolently applied synonym for “unmusical”. No doubt some people intend that pejorative meaning. But I think the term is still useful. There is some music where I really cannot hear a tonal centre at any point, and it feels as if I’m not meant to. (I’m not thinking of “tonal centre” in a narrow Western functional harmony sense. If I go to a concert of Indian classical music, that music definitely has a tonal centre, in the sense that there’s a clear centripetal orientation around “Sa”). BTW I’m not convinced un-pitched percussion music is automatically atonal. Most un-pitched percussion instruments still have preponderant pitches in their spectra. If I was to listen to just the snare drum part of Ravel’s Bolero, it wouldn’t feel atonal the way Webern’s Symphony feels atonal.

[@robertsteinberger5667]

i think the intro to lets spend the night together by bowie is atonal piano chords, am I right? I hope to learn how to make these kind of chords that sound half chaotic half pure.

[@ignacioclerici5341]

Great explanation!

[@popoffs5273]

Is that blinking morse code or something?

[@OTLCellartapes]

yes - this is good insightful - nice explanation there,,.,.,

[@GreenTeaViewer]

In addition to Samuel's wonderful channel, there is David Bruce's. Can anyone suggest other channels on classical and contemporary music?

[@xHannaHx33]

So... is modal (of the medieval times) non tonal???

[@curtpiazza1688]

Interesting intro. to this subject!

[@shosho_hrubblefongers9311]

I still don’t get atonal music

[@StevieZero]

What's going on with the blinking

[@victorarul8897]

I thought that your definition of atonal had an extra chunk which could have been left out. Specifically the part after "Music that thoroughly and systematically avoids any tone combinations that could cause a semblance of key or tonal centre to arise." I would be interested to know your reasoning for the additional part. You describe that it is unfortunate that the term atonal was brought into use in the first place. I think that the term a useful idea as tonality is an important factor to identifying a soundworld and quite a widespread concept that guides the listening of music. Even if one were to believe that there is no such thing as an atonal piece, the idea of atonality still serves as an abstract idea that can be interacted with conceptually. However that's not to say that the term hasn't led to misconceptions. I think misconceptions include that tonality works as a dichotomy rather than a continuum or that the term atonal refers to substandard music (as it originally did). Another big trap is defining a soundworld only with the term 'atonal' or 'tonal. For example, if you were to describe Xenakis' Metastaseis it would be foolish to say that it sounds the way it does merely because it is atonal and that's why it is different to Mozart, the timbral considerations concerning the technique of sound mass, among other things, are of greater salience. Nevertheless, at the same time it would be necessary to include the idea of atonality when describing Metastaseis.

[@xxxorg]

ATONALITY? UHHH CAPTAIN BEEFHEART AND HIS MAGIC BAND OR FRANK ZAPPA PERHAPS?

[@mcbillygoat2413]

I love this channel and Samuel has a passion for the scientific method that should be held in high regard by everyone. I hope he has a chance to interview Moris Tepper. He worked with Captain Beefheart and was able to compose a song in 2004 called “ricochet man” which sounded like a new Beefheart cut in the 2000’s. Come to find out, Beefheart wrote the lyrics. His album Head Off (2004) includes a lyrical collaboration with the reclusive Beefheart with the song "Ricochet Man". -Wikipedia

[@bentleycharles779]

Brilliant.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

How about calling atonal music, dissonant music?

[@machida5114]

Is hip-hop music atonal?

[@psijicassassin7166]

Since I can't stand listening to atonal music for five minutes, I play it at night to make my hyperactive dog sleepy. Serialist composers arrange notes usefully.

[@doggedidea980]

Can atonality sound pleasent, or must it naturaly sound horrible (implying that "horrible" is not harmonious or melodic)? If I compose a verse that is not following a root-note (in reality, modulating as often as it seems suggests), does it classify as atonal music? I'm having trouble understanding the essence of the word. Is it even possible to play without the use of tones if not just noise (experimental)? I must've have missed something. Oh, and you blink too much btw. No offence. It's just very noticeable.

[@jacksonp2397]

Challenge: Take a shot every time he blinks Anyway, great video! :D

[@florianff8673]

Thanks for another great video and your important remarks on the common misusage of the word! Speaking of "noise music" I'd be very interested to know how you would approach a piece of music that is commonly associated with the genre of noise music. To narrow it down maybe a piece by the Nihilst Spasm Band or Masami Akita/Merzbow (just to name another popular artist). Greetings from Hamburg, Germany!

[@samuel_andreyev]

I was thinking it could be interesting/fun to analyze an improvisation by the NSB. Grüße aus Elsass.

[@florianff8673]

​@@samuel_andreyev I would be curious to watch such a video. Thanks for the reply!

[@claycorso137]

Brilliant video! Very good point, especially regarding how "atonal" music is rarely described based on its positive characteristics. I enjoyed your positive approach to finding a definition. Are you familiar with Paul Griffiths' book, Modern Music and After?

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thank you. Yes, I know that book -- it made a big impression on me when I was a teenager.

[@claycorso137]

@@samuel_andreyev Thanks for the response. I just started it, I really enjoy the analysis of the pieces. It reminds me of some of your video analyses.

[@LouisGuillotYT]

I don't know this book but it must be nice because I have his book called "Modern Music, a concise history from Debussy to Boulez" and it was a joy to read !

[@claycorso137]

Louis Guillot it’s certainly a joy! I’m in the first 25 pages or so.

[@wolleyreikivalley]

what aspects of grunge music are atonal?

[@samuel_andreyev]

I didn't say it was atonal, I said it didn't fall within the classical definition of tonality as outlined in the video.

[@DeepFrigidWinter]

Im a huge fan of your videos, could you do an analysis of the song Threnody for the victims of Hiroshima?

[@edwardwong9599]

Bruh u need a eye drop and u made me blink too much too

[@tasdude3227]

I feel like the term "Atonal" is used as a generic umbrella term to more avant-garde "Strange" and non-conventional music that the vast majority of people don't find appealing, as matter fact it's way less mainstream as many other less mainstream music genre as Jazz. Also I don't think that the phrase at the end really spots the problem, the fact it's that many people are not that educated about music and that's okay, so being offended over a such generic statement I find it ridicule. That said really interesting and well made video!

[@alext8828]

Alright, that's enough. Bowing on the tailpiece, indeed.

[@bob733333]

I recommend just enjoying and not asking 'why?', or 'how?'. A lot of people want it to be super complicated. Well, it's usually not.

[@jacksonp2397]

I think asking "why" and "how" is extremely enjoyable to creative people.

[@luke_herbz]

Solid video. He reminded me of agent smith from the matrix though.

[@samuel_andreyev]

🕶

[@saczikom]

Have these people never heard of tics? It's very rude to point them out in such obnoxious fashion. When you see a person doing tics in public do you also point your finger at them and say something stupid? Sad to see that such well-made educational video has so many of its comments saying absolutely nothing about the actual subject and just behaving like middle school children. It's more common than you may think, especially when speaking in public or recording a video. I'm saying this as someone who also has tics and I just got very annoyed that people in this comment section are so immature that they make such a big deal of them as they are not that noticeable and don't get in the way of the lesson at all.

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thanks. I think I’ve got them under control now :-)

[@saczikom]

@@samuel_andreyev I'm still in the process of trying to get them under control, but it's getting better. I hope you didn't mind me pointing out these comments. As someone who relates to your position, I just hoped this would make at least some of the people reconsider their behaviour. BTW I really enjoyed your interview with Jim O'Rourke, maybe one day you'll make an analysis of one of his songs?

[@samuel_andreyev]

I don’t mind at all :)

[@bmhernandez8798]

You just blew my mind! I did a show with the Nihilist Spasm Band in the 1990s in Detroit. Your uncle was in the group?!? Amazing!

[@samuel_andreyev]

My uncle started the group.

[@bmhernandez8798]

@@samuel_andreyev sorry, yeah, he started it. I met him 20+ yrs ago at Alvin's in Detroit

[@samuel_andreyev]

Nice to hear from you! They were/are a great band, not sure how active they are now. I visited with their vocalist Bill Exley last year though!

[@bmhernandez8798]

@@samuel_andreyev Good to meet you. It is nice to hear that they are well and (may be) still active. Regards and Thanks for your time.

[@divernathan]

Nice video Blinky Blinkerton.

[@nathangale7702]

Reminds me of the Velvet Underground video when you quoted a music critic and said something like, "it would be difficult to use more adjectives while saying absolutely nothing" jajaja. I'm a big fan of your BS detector.

[@lukalmighty]

what's the track playing in the end, anyone?

[@samuel_andreyev]

That's my piece Strasbourg Quartet (end of the 4th movement), which you can hear on Spotify, iTunes and Amazon (links in video description).

[@lukalmighty]

thanks, i'll check it out

[@milo182]

You gained a subscriber

[@samuel_andreyev]

Welcome!

[@scribblertheband]

Are you from London Ontario?

[@samuel_andreyev]

No, I'm from Kincardine, but my mother was born in London.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

Wendy Carlos has pointed out that atonal music utilizes the intervals of 7ths, 9ths, and tritones a whopping 55% of the time, as opposed to 8% in common practice music. That's pretty hierarchical! Short version: atonal music "theory" only really works if one is bad at math. Divide the octave into say 11 or 13 parts and voila! No tonic dominant relationships, assuming that's what flips your whig. For my part I'm fine with the style where appropriate. However I still resent that it got shoved down our throats in school to the exclusion of much and much better music, followed by the question "how are you going to earn a living?"

[@samuel_andreyev]

Do you have a source for that Wendy Carlos assertion? i'd love to know how she came up with those figures, which pieces she studied, etc.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

@@samuel_andreyev www.wendycarlos.com/resources/2ed-nyt.html

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thank you. But I think there might be a slight misapprehension here. My video deals mainly with atonality, not dodecaphonic music, which functions very differently. Still, I am aware that there was tons of bad academic music of this sort being written in the USA for decades. Carlos' perspective is very interesting historically.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

@@samuel_andreyev Well, you do mention that "atonal" is a vague term so I'll let that go :)* It was the word "hierarchy" that got me thinking.(thanks btw) Like most musical folks, I seldom count much past 4 , but I see it like this. 12 has multiples of both 3 and 2. The frequency ratio of 3 to 2 is what in musical terms? A fifth. What this means is that you don't have many opportunities to avoid implying a harmonic relationship twixt adjacent tones. Somewhere along the line without a great deal of gyration, you will "hear" that implication and want it defeated (atonal) or confirmed (tonal) er, so long as you are going with 12 parts to the octave - and that applies whether rigidly, in tone rows or freestyle. (heya heya heya! get'cher fresh picked densities, durations, and amplitudes!) If music by say Schoenberg is great music (I think it is) it's not because of their advanced reasoning. It is specious reasoning. Still good art! I imagine a great deal of it has to do with what we expect to hear. Context. Now then, how about scales based on fractals? * you should do one on the myriad inaccurate musical terms, like atonal, english horn et al

[@smaropapaevangelou6963]

Thank you very nice

[@CarolusInciusEtScoti]

I also dislike the terms atonal and tonal... I think they are a little too vague. I do however think that definitions are for things, not things for definitions. I think language rises to meet function of defnition, and even if it is not etymologically precise, if it is properly understood I see it as effective to the helping of Man. When terms become unable to define things, we refine or replace the terms, but clarity and function in artistic definition is like dancing with two girls, one who dances with every one, and one who will dance with only you. A constant choice between perception and precision... Technically... I feel that the The only "atonal" piece to exist is John Cage's "4:33" as it actually has no tones at all! Once my music history professor had us play "drop the needle" but when he started the recording the speaker was off... I promply guessed "John Cage's 4:33" to the groaning chuckle of my professor followed by a response of "Yeah... yeah... Shut up..." I was incorrect by the way. It turned out to be some modernist if I remember...

[@SuonoReale]

My definition of "atonal" is: Any music that has a preponderance of [0,1,2] simultaneities.

[@SuonoReale]

@LeftRight thank you. I appreciate your comment. I was half-joking, but, I truly believe that, to even the trained ear, a preponderance of triple-chromatic simultaneities registers as "atonal" to the Western brain.

[@death0intj]

well if you have a dog and a stick and 1. you throw the stick to play with the dog - that's tonality 2. you poke the dog with the stick and make it angry and confused - that's atonality.

[@e.r.martin881]

at the end !!

[@SamuelRHoward]

Very nice, concise examination of a vague and fairly frustratingly useless term!

[@rs-tarxvfz]

If I could see the world from your perspective, it would move like 5 frames per seconds.

[@Youtubemademeaddahandle]

There are simply too may "nots" to attach to a definition. A simplicity of "is"es, logically, is a better route for defining anything. A concept based upon the lack of what is defined by another approach is essentially just antagonistic in nature. Intentionally ignoring chosen elements of a logical foundation is insufficient as a basis for definition of an alternate nature. Starting somewhere (anywhere) gives rise to the concept of "one". Developing a system of logic intentionally disallowing the acknowledgment of the "one" is the height of petulance.

[@yarplurch4816]

Not to be rude, but why do you blink so much?

[@ryanhenderson8908]

Listening to too much atonal music.

[@danield2568]

Yarp Lurch maybe Tourette’s

[@Davidnuhldefariacruz]

His eyes linked to his mouth

[@brokemusician9774]

Take a shot every time they blink. But seriously. Thank you for this informative lesson!

[@samuel_andreyev]

You are most welcome

[@Gusrikh1]

Very interesting..

[@markusreuter]

Hindemith's suggestion/solution was to use the term "freitonal" instead.

[@samuel_andreyev]

I will be discussing Hindemith next week.

[@markusreuter]

@@samuel_andreyev I'm looking forward to that.

[@acetaminophetus]

Nihilist Spasm Band? I'm already on board.

[@almendratlilkouatl]

so now music is squeaky eh?