Ten Fantastic Fantasy RPGs Which Aren't Dungeons & Dragons on The Gaming Gang Dispatch EP 1091

[@ConlangKrishna]

Really nice list! 45:58 Dragonbane 51:06 Forbidden Lands 57:57 HârnMaster 1:01:08 The One Ring 1:05:58 Pendragon 1:11:07 Runequest 1:15:12 Symbaroum 1:18:55 Tunnels & Trolls 1:26:54 Warhammer Fantasy

[@Rich_H_1972]

Castles & Crusades is D&D, whether people like it or not. Not a bad thing but I wouldn't recommend it for people wanting to play an RPG that *isn't* D&D. The other games mentioned are mechanically and/or thematically different enough though - highlights for me being Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane - especially the cracking artwork. Two of my Top 5 games of all time are in here though, those being The One Ring and Pendragon (the 5th/5.2 edition of it, at least). Those really are perfectly designed RPGs and I've had hours and hours of fun with them both. Beautifully crafted games. Great list Jeff.

[@Thegaminggang]

Actually, C&C is a far cry from D&D. Completely different design philosophy and execution.

[@Rich_H_1972]

@@Thegaminggang Happy for you to have your opinion but I don't agree. It has all the tropes of D&D. The system is D&D with the groovy prime attribute test added to it. It still has all the attributes, each providing +/- bonuses, still has AC, still has HPs, still has saves, still has level progression, still has the classes, still has the races, still has the monsters, still uses a d20 resolution to attack, still has all the D&D sacred cows. Its easy to port old and new scenarios to it. Its equally piss easy to take stuff from it and plug it into other D&D variants. Those all combined, yeah, it's totally D&D. It may be more in line with older editions [of D&D] than the latest one but that doesn't mean it isn't [D&D]. To say "*Completely* different design philosophy and execution" and a "*far cry* from D&D" is... well, just think that's far too much of a reach. 🥰 I'd have left it off to provide some real daylight between all your choices and D&D, "Against the Darkmaster" is a nice MERP redo if you haven't checked it out although guessing not since you're not a fan of its dad (Rolemaster).

[@Thegaminggang]

Happy you've got an opinion too. :)

[@quantus5875]

In the end what C&C is -- 1) it takes D&D 3e mechanics, 2) get rids of skills and feats and replace them with a task resolution system based on attributes, and 3) the game is written to reflect AD&D 1e content and feel. It's a spiritual homage to AD&D 1e. It plays different that any D&D version I've played -- and I've played all of them. It essentially plays like a super streamlined version of AD&D 1e. Is it D&D-like (AD&D 1e) -- yes in that sense you're right - spiritually it feels like AD&D1e. But I do agree with Jeff that mechanically it feels very different that D&D. D&D-like yes, D&D no.

[@rob_b894]

@@quantus5875 I've played C&C. It's D&D houseruled, that's all.

[@primafacie5029]

I like Warlock! Which is a lite version similar to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay... I unfortunately have yet to run it.

[@rory7590]

Good show and I think you’ve captured a good spread of alternative fantasy RPGs. For me, games like Runequest, Pendragon and Warhammer Fantasy are all time classics. I like a lot of the others mentioned too. One game that wasn’t mentioned but is also a celebrated classic, due to be Kickstarted for a ‘Definitive Edition’ in the next couple of months is Ars Magica. This is a game where you play wizards and their companions and servants (called ‘Grogs’). It has, arguably, still the best magic system in the hobby by virtue of providing a framework where you can create your own spells and create your own style of magic. Well worth checking out.

[@elfknight8045]

Dragonbane is excellent. Very fun and streamlined play. And WFRP 4th edition is what I've GMed for the last couple years. Great game, amazing campaign in "Enemy Within". I can't see myself returning to D&D ever. I am surprised not to see Pathfinder on this list though.

[@Thegaminggang]

It's too adjacent to D&D. As I mentioned, I was sharing mainly RPGs which were different mechanically. ~ Jeff

[@quantus5875]

I'm definitely going to need to check out Dragonbane.

[@quantus5875]

Yes, Castles & Crusades rocks!! And Troll Lords Games -- is such an incredible company! There is still C&C stock -- by purchasing on the Troll Lords web site -- and like Jeff said the "Reforged" printing should be available in Nov/Dec of this year. The Reforged printings will still have the gorgeous AD&D 1e homage covers -- but somewhere on the Reforged books they will add their little yellow Troll Lord Games anniversary patch/logo to the books -- so you'll be able to tell from a distance that they are the "Reforged" printings. I participated in the recent C&C Reforged kickstarter that happened earlier this summer -- that was an exciting one. Stephen Chenault -- created a pledge goal that was passed (on the last day) -- and committed to a hardcover omnibus of all the "C" series modules (for some of the pledge levels). Looking forward to that omnibus -- and the new rule books. Good times!!

[@darylehret]

I'm glad to see your interest in WHFRP, as I have been a fan of the system since 1e's beginning. In fact, I gave away my eleven AD&D 1e hardbacks to a friend and never went back.

[@matthewconstantine5015]

As far as my recs you didn't mention, there's Dungeon Crawl Classics. I know it's inspired by D&D rules, but I like to say it's a game where someone said, "hey, what if D&D was actually good and fun to play?" And then there's my all time favorite Fantasy game, Ars Magica. Not an easy game to get into, or to find folks who are interested in playing, but I love it. For other Greg Stafford games, there's one I wish was still in print, Prince Valiant. Super rules-light and very cool. But I think it's another one of those situations where the rights holders for the intellectual property are a problem.

[@Thegaminggang]

I talk about DCC all the time. I'm a big fan of Dungeon Crawl Classics. It's wasn't on this list because, as mentioned, I was focusing on games which aren't very similar to D&D - such suingas dice pools, D100, and so forth. ~ Jeff

[@Rich_H_1972]

Ars Magica is a great choice, love the troop play of it and multiple character approach of Magi/Companion/Grog. Brilliant game.

[@rob_b894]

And DCC is much less like D&D than C&C so really would be better placed being on the list. C&C is just another version of D&D.

[@SteveDahlskog]

The Dragonbane box isn’t really a starter set. It contains the complete rule set.

[@Thegaminggang]

Some folks at Free League do refer to the box set as a starter seeing it's got all the extras like dice, adventures, cards, pre-gen characters, etc. Once the stand alone hardcover book was released is when that started. ~ Jeff

[@SteveDahlskog]

@@Thegaminggang yeah, agree. My comment wasn’t really about naming but rather the content that is packed in it. Compare with your review of a stater set with smelly minis. Stranger things has happened. 😉

[@Thegaminggang]

What a godawful starter that was. Utter trash really. ~ Jeff

[@jeffreyquigley]

Forbidden Lands has at least 2 more expansions that are planned. The Alderland expansion is actively being worked on first and will likely Kickstart next year (I'm guessing). The other expansion is for an island of some sort if I'm not mistaken.

[@Thegaminggang]

Thanks for the heads up!

[@SteveDahlskog]

I like these overview “reviews” because they put the games in relation to each other.

[@Thegaminggang]

Nope. Just giving a quick overview to give people an idea of what the games are like mechanically at least. I have reviewed all of these though if you want more details! ~ Jeff

[@deusvault5732]

Forbidden lands is continuing, they are going south next if my research is right and the writer is creating a book series for it. One of my favorites.

[@Rich_H_1972]

Check out *Lair of the Leopard Empresses* for a really nice take on Monsters Monsters (and by inference Tunnels & Trolls). Really nicely done with some great additional rules that enhances the abstracted dice pool, especially in combat.

[@quantus5875]

Great video Jeff!! We have roughly similar tastes - half the games you mentioned I really like: Castles & Crusades, Pendragon, RuneQuest, and Tunnels & Trolls. All fantastic games. T&T really deserves a lot more love than it gets. Been wanting to try Dragonbane out -- looks like a really cool game. Yes, TONs of great alternatives to D&D.

[@jasonnewell7036]

Dragonebane, Forbidden Lands, Symbaroum and The One Ring are all solid choices, but where, oh where is Earthdawn? You want a unique approach to fantasy that still feels familiar, that has gritty, horror elements, has a deep and interesting setting and lets you use all your shiny math rocks, then it is a great choice. It never seems to get any love, especially these days, but it has been my mainline game for 2 1/2 decades now. If you want to break away from the limitations of D&D, then Earthdawn is the way to do it.

[@Wraithing]

🎼 Captain video, done went home 🎶 One pilot laid to rest… - Midnight at the Lost & Found 😁 Enjoyed the choices. Love that both Pendragon and Dragonbane are BRP/RQ based mechanics, but using a d20; and, funnily enough, Symbaroum (again same d20 roll low) was based on Mattias Jonsson's Drakar och Demoner home campaign (the D-och-D setting was called Ereb Altor - Symbaroum's Alberetor is an anagram). Great to see what a big difference can be made with a setting and a few minor system tweaks. As for other games: I really like how the Savage Worlds mechanics work with fantasy. Excellent for a dynamic, pulp feel. Personally, Savage Worlds is my preference for Lankhmar, although I can almost taste the poison that the DCC folks are prepping on their daggers for my back! Also, I've enjoyed several games using the Fantasy AGE system. The 3d6 bell-curve cuts down on the scattergun variability range of d20 fantasy games, but the stunt die makes for an exciting extra success mechanic. Trouble is, I'm not sure Green Ronin enjoy promoting their stuff or interacting with the community. They have some good content, but they just seem to disappear regularly.

[@bjornh4664]

Hm. I own six of the ten games, either the full games or the starters. Nice to see our taste in games are similar (and yeah, I own a ton of CoC books).

[@Ziggy7800Pro]

I read Castle & Crusades and was going to play a game, but it was called off. I really liked the system it used. So this is random, but there is prowrestling TTRPG Kickstarter that is going on that I thought sounded cool. It is called DWRPG (Defintive wrestling role playing game), just putting the word out there.

[@needmorecowbell6895]

I'm going to throw one out from left field. Through the Breach, which is based on the Malifaux miniatures game. There's no dice. A card mechanic is used. What I really like about it is the off the reservation way of advancing characters. You don't get a +1 magic weapon. Instead, you get a crazy mechanic like "Go Home, You're Drunk" which changes your stats and abilities when you're character has been drinking or the ability to summon a pack of killer rabbits. You can get a talent like Clumsy, which lets you face plant to avoid an attack. It gets rid of the mundane business of shopping and equipping for swords and iron spikes and you get really interesting, flavorful characters. Not for everyone, but a good change of pace if you're sick of another dungeon crawl.

[@quantus5875]

Sounds like an interesting game.

[@needmorecowbell6895]

@@quantus5875 It's an interesting concept. If you're one of those players that play for the loot drops, you're probably not going to like this game. The chances that you start and end with the same gear are pretty reasonable. Some towns need saving, even without a reward. You have to lean into the goofy, role playing side of the game. Kind of fun in a wacky, fantasy Western setting.

[@deeebeee1758]

Hey Jeff. Looking forward to playing WFRP with you, man. (You did get my email, right?) I was surprised that DCC was not on your list. I'd also consider adding World's Without Number. I also really like Low Fantasy Roleplaying which is being updated as Tales of Argosa. Cheers!

[@Thegaminggang]

Remember, outside of Castle & Crusades the focus was on games which don't share much mechanical DNA with D&D. ~ Jeff

[@rory7590]

The new owners of Tunnels & Trolls, Rebellion, did once have an affiliation with Mongoose Publishing. It didn’t last (as Mongoose preferred their independence) but the main IP they are known for is Judge Dredd and 2000AD. All the Games Workshop Judge Dredd Games from the 1980s are owned by them (and I really like some of them!).

[@quantus5875]

Does that mean there will be a new version of T&T?

[@rory7590]

@@quantus5875 Presumably, they bought it for a reason. I can’t really answer beyond that.

[@dk260]

Where would one sign up for the WFRP game taking place?

[@Thegaminggang]

Shoot me an email over through thegaminggang.com. ~ Jeff

[@1stleveldmgames798]

Plenty of other Mork Borg variants to review

[@leandronc]

For a modern style D&D I'd suggest 13th Age, Pathfinder 2 or Shadow of the Demon Lord. All 3 have a much clearer design direction than current D&D. For a more old school experience, I'd go DCC or OSE. We're really spoiled for choice these days.

[@quantus5875]

All great options that you've listed. Played all of these except Shadow of the Demon Lord. To your list for good modern games I'd add Fantasy AGE. For old school my gotos are: Labyrinth Lord, Lamentations, Basic Fantasy, and OSE.

[@michaelmullenfiddler]

What!? How COULD you! Gnomes and talking ducks are completely different! Lol

[@Thegaminggang]

I'm a blasphemer! :) ~ Jeff

[@12600Grey]

Hi, question from a newer guy to RPGs. In line with the video topic, I am looking at an adventure on DrivethruRPG and it has two system versions, one for Savage Worlds and one for AEther D100. Before I get too far down the hole, Does anyone have any comments or things to think about if choosing between those two? Thank you.

[@Thegaminggang]

Personally, I'd let the system determine the adventure(s) you run rather than the other way around, especially if you aren't familiar with either RPG that adventure is written for. I know nothing about AEther D100 (other than it's obviously using percentile dice) but I have reviewed Savage Worlds if you're curious about that system. Give that vid a peek. ~ Jeff

[@12600Grey]

Thank you for your time and the guidance! I am like a kid in his first candy shop! I need to pump the brakes and just get playing.

[@bjornh4664]

"Drakar och Demoner" is pronounced "draakar (long A, short A) ock (short O) demooner (short E, long O like in "mourn", short E".

[@calvinjim8829]

I didn’t see Shadowdark mentioned. This is the new darling of the internet so I thought you might mention it. Do you like Shadowdark?

[@quantus5875]

I've played it and it is a good game -- but definitely like Labyrinth Lord (feels more like AD&D1e), Basic Fantasy (the OSR value King and very clean, easy to learn rules), OSE (clean beautiful layout like SD - and instantaneous to learn if you've ever played B/X D&D), and Lamentations (darker, grittier setting) better. Like I said SD is a good game -- but there are TONs of great OSR games out there. Personally, I don't understand the trendiness of SD. SD is also a NuSR game -- and it seems that Jeff only covered what I call medium (comparable) complexity D&D alternatives that were not NuSRs or OSRs in this video. Notably he also didn't mention Pathfinder 2e -- which is a more complex game than D&D 5e. Although -- come to think of it Harn Master was an anomaly -- as that is a complex game. 😂 Jeff has reviewed SD -- and if I remember he gave it a pretty high rating -- trying to remember if there were any quibbles - price I think was one -- it is a little steep for a NuSR/OSR game. Quality of the book I think was a pro. His review on SD is easy to find -- if you want to take a look at it.