The Missing Bassoon

[@BretNewtonComposer]

To everyone who keeps mentioning "contra-alto bassoon" or some variance thereof, check out this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oqa5XomKfLaLppo Contra-alto isn't an acceptable term for any instrument.

[@PeterGriffin-kb2hf]

I disagree. Just because it isn't official or historical doesn't mean it isn't a logical designation. It simply is an octave lower than alto. The issue is that instrument names are quite relative. for example an octave lower than a alto saxophone is a baritone saxophone, and in order to play contrabass range, you need a subcontrabass saxophone. I think bassoon having bass in it's name is the real issue. It is not really a bass instrument. Really the missing member would be called a bassoon while the current bassoon would logically be called a barisoon or something of the like. Either way naming for instruments by range is based on who decided what range they felt like it was in. I think alto contrabass would be completely appropriate.

[@bobofthekerbals9797]

Contra-alto is an acceptable term for contra-alto clarinet

[@xander1052]

@@bobofthekerbals9797 the problem with that though is the Alto Clarinet itself really shouldn't be called the Alto Clarinet (instead be called the tenor clarinet), and it also sounds honestly way worse than even just calling it by it's older name, the Eb Contrabass Clarinet.

[@mackenlyparmelee5440]

Why not just call it a great bassoon?

[@minka866]

*Contra Alto* clarinete

[@Subcontrabassoon]

I still like "Greatbassoon" as one compound word. But I'm weird.

[@shiningarmor2838]

I've heard the instrument called "Kontrafagott" as if it were a regular contrabassoon.

[@fcopaja]

It is, in romance language speaking countries

[@KimimaruKusanagi]

Richard Bobo I prefer "greatbassoon" too. I think it's a good name for this instrument.

[@aaronh8095]

Do we need a semi-sub contrabassoon now?

[@nathancarpenter8267]

I think it should be called a sub bassoon

[@ethantran1395]

How about comingsoon

[@thehastysamurai3058]

Lols

[@lucpraslan]

The gonetoosoon

[@Jerry-hp5sf]

Take a shot every time he says “bassoon”.

[@caterscarrots3407]

Contratenoroon maybe? This is a 1 word term that describes the range of the instrument. Contra for octave below and instead of bassoon in the name, there is tenoroon in the name, referencing the fact that this instrument is in the same key as the tenoroon.

[@mrslinkydragon9910]

The contrabassoon looks good in the paperclip style. Clarinets however do not

[@HelicopterHarmonics]

The semi-contrabassoon would look good in the paperclip style as well.

[@bernhardkirchner5447]

I have seen and heard a bassoon and in low F, and have have heard of quintbassoon, there are also videos nowadays of dulcian ensembles which use tenor and alto dulcians , it's quite a unique sound!

Fun fact; the normal bassoon can play higher than a tenor bassoon, and as low as the Semi-Contrabassoon. I have a video on my channel where I play up to the high C above Rite of Spring, and another where I play down to contra F. (low Eb is also possible, but I found the fingerings for it after I uploaded the video). Great video though, and certainly Richard's Subcontrabassoon project is fascinating, I see we're both "Contributors" on his homepage to support his project :-)

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Oh I very much know it. Those extra low notes via multiphonics I don't put much stock in. I've tried them on many different bassoons and have never had them work well.

[@Subcontrabassoon]

What's the multiphonic fingering you found for contra Eb? I only know down to contra E.

[@lucashoffses9019]

But wouldn't the tenor bassoon be able to go even higher with the fingerings on the bassoon and the right air pressure?

[@kimjeongyeon5640]

Yes. It will go up to F6, which is even difficult for oboe

[@caterscarrots3407]

@@BretNewtonComposer Multiphonics can make the instrument go lower? I have only heard of multiphonics in one context, playing an interval simultaneously instead of arpeggiating it(so like the woodwind equivalent of a double stop on the violin.

[@gregfaris6959]

I am not convinced this is the most meaningful approach if we are to imagine expanding the bassoon family. The reason I say this is that improvement in instrument mechanisms and players’ technique have vastly expanded the useful range of both the bassoon, and to a lesser extent the contrabassoon, to where the ranges seamlessly cover everything from sub-bass to high alto, and many bassoonists also have a low “A” bell (or a rolled-up magazine) to get that one semitone. The “altered” version played here to justify a “bass bassoon” is actually easily and musically played by contrabassoonists today (listen to Amrei Liebold’s video and her beautiful playing). If there were to be a useful “new” bassoon, I believe it would be in the form of a transposing instrument, similar to what clarinetists do with their A and Bb instruments. The bassoon, though it is a “concert” instrument, is really an “F” instrument, and F-major is the closest thing to an open scale on the instrument. F#, C# and B natural are weak and difficult to tune, and most bassoonists are less comfortable playing sharp keys (G, D, A, E major and their relative minors) as opposed to flat keys (F, Bb, Eb etc). A transposing bassoon sounding in G or A would allow bassoonists to play in the sharp keys with the same boldness and ease with which they play in the more comfortable flat keys today.

[@brandtbecker1810]

I think your idea is better than trying to develop an entirely new instrument (-:

[@sashakindel3600]

The "bassoon quint" terminology is confusing, because elsewhere I've always seen "quint bassoon" to refer to a tenor bassoon a fifth *higher* than a bassoon.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

The better term is "Quint Bass Bassoon." In German, the term Hochquintfagott or Tiefquintfagott were sometimes used.

[@ScottlenBrown]

Good work Brent I love your videos and I am commenting on the one that started it all 7 years later and I hope that you can get this project done and keep teaching. I am the only high-school Contra-bassoonist in montana so I get if you feel alone

[@TheSammywammybar]

In the Tuba world we have both Bass and Contrabass tubas. Basses are pitched in F and Eb and Contrabasses are pitched in CC and BBb. Why can't we name a semi-contrabassoon just a bass bassoon?

[@greymountain7107]

Because the redundant name is confusing.

[@jmwoods190]

I for one would call it a "subbassoon"- lower than a bassoon but not quite as low as a contrabassoon.

[@SammieSeville]

I feel like the semi-contrabassoon would look better if it had the same shape and style as the contrabassoon.

[@aycc-nbh7289]

What about the third tenor trombone and bass trombone in bands? Could we perhaps get a baritone trombone in F/C/Db/A?

[@kendrickpereira37]

Food for thought. And it's nice to see the bassoon family recognised as a distinct family from the oboe family. The two families overlap in range. You mention the tenor bassoon. Let's not forget there is also an alto bassoon and until well after WW2 (though on the way out) there was a bass oboe. No, not a baritone oboe but a bass oboe, an octave lower than the cor anglais.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Can you show me an example of a Bass Oboe in F? I've spent over 25 years researching the topic and have come across a single example (a museum piece) from the middle of the 1700s. As for the Alto Bassoon, until someone makes it an instrument for professionals and not for children, we can't really consider it a useable option.

[@mason11198]

I WANT THE SUB CONTRABASSOON !!!!!!!!!! I already wrote a subcontra solo that sounds amazing for Tuba, now I need it for a bassoon!!!!

[@windyrunner3847]

Welp, forget about my tuition fee, lmao

[@musicmania62]

Before Easter vacation my orchestra played Bach's St John's Passion. The conductor wanted a massive continuo section and justified his orchestration ideas on the last edition that Bach made. I read up on the subject and it seems that this last version's inclusion of a fagotto grosso came from an orchestral part from a couple years before Bach's death where someone had written that term. In any case, among all these commentaries of the use of bassoon s in Bach's music there was mention of a quart bassoon obligato part in one of Bach's cantatas. An instrument in G. Back to the Passion, the continuo was 2 basses, contra, bassoon, 4 cellos, a huge organ, harpsichord, theorba. No matter how soft we played it was just wrong and fortunately the stubborn conductor desisted. I had played this piece on baroque bassoon, one bass, 2 cellos, a positive organ and even then it was delicate playing. It's a choral piece for heaven's sake. By the way, I think that the sub contra bassoon is not a very useful idea. Even organs that have a 32 foot register use that stop just to rumble you can't really get the note.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

So, we do know for a fact that the Bassono grosso in the St. John Passion was indeed a Contrabassoon. One made by Eichentopf in Leipzig. That exact instrument still exists and is the model for which all historical reproductions have been made. As for the "G Quart Bassoon," we now know that this was not the case. I've talked to the leading historical scholar (Kevin Hall) on Bach's use of such instruments in his cantatas and it is a strange situation where the wind instruments were using French-made instruments tuned to A=396 while the Organ and strings were tuned to Hochkammerton at A=466. This difference between these is a minor third and fully accounts for the low Gs in the Bassoon part. On the performance, we you using modern or period instruments?

[@musicmania62]

Bret Newton - Composer ... very interesting regarding the different tunings and coming together in the practical world. I'd just like to say that following the continuo part's fagotto grosso indications to the letter (playing exactly where indicated) made for a bottom heavy sound. Technically I was delighted. What was confusing was that there wasn't any indication when it was just bassoon. Trying to make sense of the orchestration as an accompyment to a choir and soloists I came.to the conclusion that the bassono grosso was à typo that was really basso grosso. The indication just didn't make sense and was confusing. The vast majority of recordings on KZbin use just a bassoon. Of course this is the discretion of the conductor and what is available to him. I am just saying that from a practical performance based criteria the bassono grosso indication is wired and awkward. Regarding the big bassoon I'd love having that in the orchestra!

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Sorry for the late response. For whatever reason, your reply went to the spam folder. Basso grosso wouldn't really make sense (I'm assuming that you're referring to the Double Bass). Bach used with Violone or Violino Grosso for the lowest string instrument, Bassono (or some variant thereof) was Bach preferred terminology for the bassoon while Fagott(o) would be his terminology for the dulcian. The reason you don't see the Contrabassoon on most KZbin recordings is that many ensembles won't spring for the expense of renting such an instrument for the performance (only a few such instruments are extant).

[@คณพศซ้วนตั้น]

Let call it an "F contrabassoon "

[@aidanknox2430]

Does contrabassoon play in the bass range instead of contrabass range like how bassoon plays in the tenor range instead of the bass range quite often?

[@RobinHillyard]

Generally, no. I’ve never seen a contra part that should/could be written in tenor or treble clef, for instance. It’s unusual for contra to play above F (although, if I recall, Beethoven has a few Gs).

[@bobjacobson858]

I hope this instrument comes to fruition.

[@broccolifireminecraft6367]

Would there be more balance for a bassoon midway between contrabassoon and the Subcontrabassoon?

[@skylerhester6220]

maybe how clarinets have a contralto and contrabass clarinet, but since we don't a subcontrabassoon invented yet, we will have to see

[@narekavakianmusique]

Ravel have also part for sarousophonium in Rhapsodie Espagnole wich is played by bassoonist.

[@OboeFiles]

Just found this channel! Pretty into it

[@organist1982]

Hi, Bret, have you made a video about the octave bassoon or mini bassoon that is a full octave above the standard bassoon?

[@BretNewtonComposer]

I never have. I should have done it when I had one borrowed for the first Oonmoot (technically, Richard and I covered it in the first Oonmoot video on his channel).

[@SuperJxl]

Tenor Bassoon, Bassoon, Eb Contrabassoon, Contrabassoon, Subcontrabassoon, Octobassoon.

[@mason11198]

5th lower sounds kind of like a Tuba. Much more warm and broad.

[@McJays]

Hi. Great video and a good idea! What software did you use to lower your recording a fifth?

[@BretNewtonComposer]

I used Audacity.

[@HelicopterHarmonics]

Bass trumpets, baritone horns, and euphoniums sound different from each other because of different cylinder to cone ratios. (Resulting in tubas having a rounder sound than contrabass trombones for example). Saxophones and clarinets sound different from each other because of the different ends ratio. (Resulting in clarinets pitched a fifth lower than saxophones of the same transposition, and clarinets having only odd/2n+1 harmonics while saxophones have all/1n+1 harmonics). So what makes bass oboes and octave bassoons sound different, even though they are double reeds, conical, and have the same harmonic series? BTW, I'm going to invent a single reed instrument that has 3n+1 harmonics. And I have a keyless prototype of one on my channel.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Oboes and bassoons are fundamentally different instruments. Take a look at the reed design and you'll see they work in different ways. Secondly, the bore structure, while both conical, is radically different from one another. Bassoons do not have an even cone, whereas oboes do.

[@HelicopterHarmonics]

So the reed and differently shaped conical bore is what sets them apart. I know they're not in the same family since they look and sound too different, but for some reason, people think bass oboes sound like bassoons even though they're not the same pitch. Thanks for the info BTW.

[@reidoha1066]

This reminds me of this idea I had when I was learning how to play the bassoon after having learned the clarinet. I thought that it would have made things a little easier & more consistent between all of the woodwinds if the bassoon had been written as if it were in the key of F (without actually changing the instrument any) & gave the instrument the key name layout of the oboe, flute, & saxophone. So, open F would become a C & the low Bb would become an F, then write the music in treble clef. You would only have to learn 1 clef instead of 3 different clefs, & doubling between the woodwinds would be easier. Oh well, it was just a thought I had like 15 years ago. 😅

[@brandtbecker1810]

Tchaikowsky and Ravel - I think are the two best composers to turn to for learning orchestrational techniques. Please look at gregfaris6959's take on this a bit farther down. Bret - when I first came across this, I thought you were going to talk about the "long lost" Tenoroon and how there are those who have advocated that it was the instrument Rossini had in mind for the famous solo in the "William Tell Overture" - the tenoroon being pitched a 5th higher than the regular bassoon. I liked your vlog on the ophicleide (-:

[@JoshLemer]

But why not just write these parts for contrabassoon? Why would we need an instrument half way when there's already so much overlap in range between contra and regular bassoon?

[@zacharycoronado6749]

Maybe call it the G bassoon?

[@BretNewtonComposer]

The instrument I digitally create is actually one in F. However, simply calling it an "F Bassoon" would be confusing as there is also a Tenor Bassoon in F, not to mention that the Bassoon itself is actually fundamentally in F (at least its scale is based on F).

[@zacharycoronado6749]

Oh I see. Mentally, I always accidentally refer to bassoon as an instrument in C. Maybe because I first learned music from the perspective of Bb Clarinet. F Bassoon, or Bassoon in F could work out if one also used the terms designated as quartbassoon and quintbassoon, for the G and F tenor bassoons.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

However, quart and quint have also been used historically for the lower instruments as well as the higher ones.

[@andrewbell1595]

Anyone gonna mention how he says the semi-contrabassoon would be the normal bassoon's range down a fifth, but has a graphic up showing how it's range is shorter by atleast a step and a half. Doesn't matter, but just found it funny.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

High range of all woodwind instruments is an arbitrary limit. Different players can reach different notes.

[@andrewbell1595]

@@BretNewtonComposer um, if you're talking about beginner to intermediate then yes?? But that's the same for brass too? Woodwind instruments really do have limits depending on the instrument. I cant go higher than Eb on a bassoon that doesn't have a E key. I was just pointing out something I found funny, but I think the statement you just said tends to be pretty false? I'd agree it changes with players more on certain instruments(brass only to my knowledge), but 100% not bassoon unless you put holes in your bocal (depends more on equipment not player).

[@BretNewtonComposer]

@@andrewbell1595 with any wind, brass, or string instrument, there’s no limit to how high you can play. The only limit is the player’s technique.

[@andrewbell1595]

@@BretNewtonComposer ykw, you're right, im gonna go play C8 on a contrabassoon now : ). You're not trying to word it like that, but uh, it's just a bad look at this point chill out. Instruments have limits, and adding modifications to instruments to make them go lower or higher is not *player technique* is all I was getting at.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

@@andrewbell1595 I’m totally chill. Maybe it’s not a good look to try and correct people on the internet.

[@jesusoliveira2]

Pardon me for my ignorance and for been off-topic but, could someone please explain why the composer wrote D C# D Db in bar 19? Would that be just to avoid confusion with the subsequent C in bar 20? Thanks.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

The D-C#-D is essentially an embellishment of a D while the Db serves as a passing tone to the C natural.

[@jesusoliveira2]

@@BretNewtonComposer Thank you but I was not very clear: why not just write D C# D C# ?

[@BretNewtonComposer]

@@jesusoliveira2 because it has to do with the function of the notes. The C#s all lead back to D while the Db leads to C.

[@coloradocrustaceans]

Love your videos!!!

[@alexalestareon695]

How about the great bassoon??

[@HelicopterHarmonics]

There is actually a video that has a semi-contrabassoon in it, (with semi-real samples too).

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Can you provide a link? I know of none.

[@HelicopterHarmonics]

For some reason, all comments I make with links get deleted, unless they're on my videos. So the video is call "Bassoon Family" made by TruncatedTriangle.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Sounds like general MIDI to me.

[@HelicopterHarmonics]

That happens when recorded samples are cropped to only a single waveform, which is what I meant by semi-real.

[@Malcoladdin]

What about the subcontrabassoon? It feels absolutely necessary

[@tomsheft4223]

I suppose, instead of buying a new car, one could commission one from an instrument maker.

[@larry2125]

Great video Bret! I have a question. Is the (regular) bassoon acoustically pitched an F instrument, or is it acoustically pitched in C? I know it reads in bass clef C, but how about the instrument itself? The fingering XXX|XXXX on other woodwinds makes their C, but on the bassoon it's a concert F, so I'm really confused. So is the bassoon technically an F instrument, and if so, what key would that make the tenoroon? Any help is appreciated :)

[@RobinHillyard]

Good point. You could argue that the bassoon is an oboe that has been transposed down an octave and a half (a twelfth) down to F just below the bass clef. However, the XXX|Xoo fingering is B natural rather than B flat (so that it counts as an instrument "in C"). We should also note that, whereas the oboe's lower "extension" is only one whole tone (C to B-flat), the bassoon's "extension" is a fifth (F to Bb).

[@MrBeugh]

Baritone bassoon?

[@LordFloofTM]

Subbassoon or Contraltoon maybe?

[@Ivytheherbert]

If bass bassoon sounds redundant, why not double bassoon?

[@RobinHillyard]

Because "double bassoon" is already the name of the instrument pitched down an octave (and so double the length), at least in the Anglo-French-speaking world.

[@nextleveljourney6612]

Solution: Tenor-oon Bassoon Semi-Contra 😝 Bassoon Contra-Bassoon

[@BretNewtonComposer]

but baritone is higher than bass...

[@nextleveljourney6612]

@@BretNewtonComposer oops 😬 I got out of sequence Edited :) See above

[@jrk1666]

The Altobassoon ?

[@cutecrittersandfriends]

3:10 Baritone bassoon

[@jaxw2628]

But baritone is higher than bass.

[@xander1052]

@@jaxw2628 SubBarisoon then :P all joking aside, I think Great-bassoon was the right call though.

[@LowReedExpert1]

They could just name it wrong like the Contraalto Clarinet, although it's becoming more normal to call it Eb contra

[@BretNewtonComposer]

The term Contra-Alto should really be avoided for all instruments except the Clarinet. It's a hybrid term and really has a poor definition. It literally means "against the (contr)alto," as such, it means an instrument an octave below the also.

[@LowReedExpert1]

Yeah, best to keep that naming convention quarantined

[@shiningarmor2838]

This would not work because there is little, if any evidence of an alto bassoon, and if there were, the octave below it would be higher than the regular bassoon.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but the Alto or Octave Bassoon most assuredly exists. I've had the pleasure of playing on several made by Wolf.

[@kimjeongyeon5640]

Contra-tenor bassoon will be more accurate. One octave below tenor bassoon.

[@MagmaForce_]

Barisoon?

[@ProactiveYellow]

what about a "double bassoon?" not as low as a contra, but lower than a standard bassoon

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Well, the term double literally means double the length of the Bassoon, so it wouldn't be a good fit at all.

[@ProactiveYellow]

Bandestration I suppose, but the term bassoon itself describes The bass double Reed instrument, using vocal terms you'd have a basso profundo between bass and contrabass (as I understand.) perhaps we ought to get out of the mindset of a "___bassoon" and treat it like an English Horn, giving it its own name.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Basso profundo is just a subcategory of bass opera singer (like basso buffo and basso cantante) and not a completely different fach. English Horn is a term I'm trying to use less and less in favor of Alto Oboe.

[@theawesomepianoman]

A double bassoon is simply another name for the contrabassoon

[@Nova-mp5ow]

"double bassoon" is just contrabassoon under a different name

[@kimjeongyeon5640]

Contrabassoon in F

[@filiphauangundersen3228]

I vote for contra tenoroon😊

[@fusiontricycle6605]

Quintabasson?

[@PeteLamont]

Captain Muttonchops!

[@ethancampbell9096]

Contra alteroon!

[@bobschaaf2549]

Sir Arthur, not Sir Sullivan!

[@logandubois5293]

The missing link

[@jnbplaysgames]

contraltosoon

[@RobinHillyard]

Unless I missed it, you didn't mention Bach's well-known composition for the "quint-bassoon" (tief): BWV 155: Mein Gott, wie lang, ach lange? (#2 duet with remarkable quint bassoon obligato) “Du mußt glauben, du mußt hoffen.” Score: imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/d/df/IMSLP01417-BWV0155.pdf

[@nebula4287]

Bassoon Altoon

[@michealfemino5079]

Subcontrabassoon?! Shirley you jest! Even as a lower octave doubling of the contrabassoon (you're talking about a full octave below the range of the piano) such an instrument would be virtually useless and certainly not worth the extreme expense. Maybe you're thinking it would have the same effect as those pedal tones on a pipe organ, but I seriously doubt it would create the same effect. Pipe organs have a smooth homogenous sound in that range where a double reed could not. Just my opinion of course, perhaps someone will build one and prove me wrong!

[@BretNewtonComposer]

I never jest! (Well, except when I do.) But this is absolutely a real thing and very much worth it.

[@michealfemino5079]

I guarantee orchestras will not pick up on it even if it is built. All the notes of the lower octave are below the range of human hearing and far too low to add anything of value. Let's wait till they build it and then we'll see!

[@markhall7646]

No jesting, and don't call me Shirley.

[@gammafoxlore2981]

Contrabombardes on large organs are the example of a reed sound, Subcontrabassoons would have a similar effect in the orchestra.

[@gammafoxlore2981]

@@michealfemino5079 We can hear them as implied tones because of the overtone series. (The brain will simulate the fundamental tone, allowing things like 32 ft stops on organs to work.)

[@MiraDaWulf]

Bassoon in F.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

The problem with this is that the Bassoon itself is already in F.

[@robertperez2262]

BABOON!

[@toddrhone9420]

Contraltosoon

[@Jack-zb3cd]

Contra alto bassoon

[@lstockl5901]

You forgot the contra-forte bassoon, and the baroque and French bassoon. But you don't really see them in orchestras.

[@lstockl5901]

Sorry and the tenoroon.

[@BretNewtonComposer]

The Baroque Bassoon is a historical instrument that cannot be used with modern instruments. The French Bassoon is the same thing as the regular Bassoon, just a different system. The Contraforte is simply a redesigned Contrabassoon and not a separate instrument. The Tenor Bassoon is included, however. Thank you for trying to correct me, though... ummm... yeah...

[@narekavakianmusique]

Bariton basson.

[@finnmcool2]

I'm trying to so hard to find sympathy for you from over here in the tuba section.

[@stonex3077]

contrabass oboe in f, problem solved

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Oboe =/= bassoon

[@stonex3077]

close enough

[@BretNewtonComposer]

Not really. Ask any bassoonist to pick up an oboe and most won't be able to play it and visa versa.

[@stonex3077]

yeah, different reeds, different air, different fingers. Really an oboe is that odd child of a flute and a clarinet. the instrument the video is about could more easily be named contraltosoon in f or bassoon in f

[@stonex3077]

I have seen a clarinet player in honor band pick up an oboe and play a scale without any prior knowledge of how to play that instrument

[@James-io8lj]

the last will pop your eyes out and stuff at 13.25 Hz

[@rachelray0219]

i play the bassoon