Tense conversation after aircraft unable to vacate the runway in time at JFK Airport. Real ATC

[@robertmorgan8754]

The controller gave Norse Atlantic permission to exit at the second taxiway, Taxiway Uniform 3, so I'm not sure why he suddenly became upset when that's precisely what happened. Kudos to the pilots for remaining calm and not returning fire, so to speak. The controller was rude.

[@StratMatt777]

The airplane cannot safely or legally turn off the runway until it has decelerated to a safe taxi speed. So the controller is not very smart to require such a thing, unless he can magically alter how physics act upon the decelerating airplane. In short, he is ruled by his ego instead of by logic and safety.

[@whatilearnttoday5295]

Was he fired?

[@F1NUTRR]

Apparently JFK controllers commonly get upset and it is unacceptable for ATC to demand an aircraft takes a certain exit or criticise their second choice. Probably Silk 747 was marginally too close in their following distance which was probably arranged by previous ATC controller so Tower under pressure to get him landed. Tower controller should have simply issued the go around (happens more often than you might think) and if anything admonish his colleague (off air) for the minimal spacing, not the landing 787. Apologising to SilkAir while admonishing the Norse Atlantic is petulant, unnecessary and occupies precious airtime that could cause other communications problems. I hope his supervisor provided some coaching to him but as we hear this many times at JFK it seems to be a widespread attitude adjustment problem they are yet to solve.

[@neilkurzman4907]

@@whatilearnttoday5295 Why would you even ask such a question. Do you think our traffic controllers are customer service?

[@neilkurzman4907]

@@F1NUTRR If the pilot required special consideration for landing, then he probably should’ve told the traffic control in advance that he needed two landing slots

[@neperqiell3496]

That controller sounds and behaves like a teenager. Props to the Norse pilots for keeping their calm and not coming back at him while cluttering the frequency with needless communications. True professionals

[@pm1104]

Outrageous behaviour from the controller I hope an ASR is. Filed against this controller..! 😊

[@RLTtizME]

This is NY. You must be a country bumpkin.

[@neilkurzman4907]

Props to the north pilots for not doing their job properly. Not informing our traffic control. And then hogging radio time telling the traffic controller about their problems. Needless communications? Yes they were telling them about their passenger count and cargo. Maybe Norse pilot should go back to props.

[@RLTtizME]

@@neilkurzman4907 You are very excitable and cranky. It clouds your judgment.

[@getmeouttatennessee4473]

​@@neilkurzman4907Neil IS this controller.

[@Tailboard1]

The pilot was professional, remained calm and did the right thing. The controller on the other apparently isn’t a pilot or doesn’t know how difficult these Dreamliners are to maneuver safely when loaded. Controller was unprofessional.

[@esphilee]

His wife was on the Silk West.

[@CerberusTenshi]

​@@esphileeSilk Way are cargo planes. Are you suggesting the controller's girlfriend needs to be flown cargo due to her weight? XD

[@esphilee]

@@CerberusTenshi otherwise why would he be so apologetic to Silk West?

[@CerberusTenshi]

@@esphilee Good point. There is a Yo Mama joke waiting to be made. XD

[@gpun8598]

I agree that the pilot was professional. On the other hand, the tower controller could not do anything but to demand the Norse pilot to vacate the runway as quickly as possible when the succeeding traffic was put just 4miles behind the Norse by radar controller.Although his way of demanding to the Norse pilot was unprofessional.

[@tomstravels520]

2:12. THAT was completely uncalled for and unprofessional.

[@J.n.A.1993]

Exactly, apparently tying up the runway because you're a heavy is bad, but tying up the radio because you failed to slow the #2 to give the heavy more room to rollout is good?

[@jamescollier3]

yeah and he messed himself up too, and the pilot didn't care. zen& karma

[@molybdomancer195]

The pilot communicating isn’t pilot flying so the communication wouldn’t slow down the plane leaving the runway

[@TransferPoint9346]

And at this point is where I would request a phone number to file a complaint.

[@tomstravels520]

@@molybdomancer195 exactly……ATC doesn’t seem to know that somehow

[@ThraceVega]

I 100% would not have been able to hold my tongue after the controller's comment at 2:12. Massive props to the Dreamliner's pilot for his restraint.

[@wildgurgs3614]

ikr I'd be like "I tried to explain that we're extremely heav- actually, Tower, you have a number I can call. I'll be ready to copy momentarily. [callsign]." That may sound slick but wouldn't be nearly as slick as the pilots who just took it and went about their day

[@kipabell2474]

Same. I would have told him to space us further apart next time for future reference. 😅

[@Failure_Is_An_Option]

You don't even hold a license... much less any certifications. Piss off.

[@parcipinof]

He didn’t need to. He, as well as everyone around, knew he was in the right. I think this was really approaches fault for sequencing them so close together.

[@davisflyer]

That controller is a complete tool. One of my pet peeves is controllers talking to me right after I touch down. We are really busy, still operating the aircraft and don't have time to deal with their instructions, so I usually ignore them until I am less busy or pull off the runway. If the controller spaces two aircraft too closely, that's their problem, not mine!

[@michaelreeves8164]

Problem is, he made it the pilots problem.

[@ihikebc2295]

Yep. "The lack of your planning is not my emergency".

[@almac2598]

It may end up as your problem if things go wrong for him

[@cavannaro1]

I’m a controller, and yup, not for the first time a clip of JFK ATC has me cringing. He was pretty much blaming the pilot for the ATC cock up of being too tight on finals with the a/c behind.

[@jimeditorial]

You're braking, maintaining centerline, managing reversers, slats, etc., wrapping up your checklist, looking for your exit and watching for traffic...you mean you can't set takeoff power for 5 seconds and stand on the brakes to make a controller happy?

[@okay_then3337]

Props to the 787 pilots for not engaging with the childish and unprofessional controller. People like that get real mad when you don’t stoop down to their level and that was clear when the controller kept bad mouthing the pilot long after he stopped talking and exited the frequency.

[@Ndub1036]

I agree but it could have been avoided with additional communication from the 87 pilot that they’d need time exiting because of weight. They knew traffic was in trail.

[@cityplanner3063]

@@Ndub1036jfk standard is get off the runway as soon as you land. I’ve never seen any other airport rush so much. Miracle no accident has happened

[@peterfitzpatrick7032]

​@@Ndub1036 He DIDN'T need any more time than the Controllers second recommended option so wtf was ATCs problem ??...

[@will_9342]

It wouldn't surprise me if that controller got pulled into his bosses office following those remarks. Pilot was given two choices, he took the second and safest in his opinion.

[@amaliakiszova3252]

@@Ndub1036 God, it has already been written here several times that heavy in this case does not mean that it is heavy, but that it is a large plane. And ATC must have known. The pilot did not commit any error, maintained safety and prevented reckless actions that could endanger the safety of the aircraft. This is exactly how pilots are supposed to behave professionally. ACT should be subject to immediate disciplinary action. Personally, I think that such nervous people cannot work on the tower and instruct planes, because they do not even control their behavior.

[@AviationJeremy]

Pilot was given two options. He selected one based on his needs. ATC hurried him along Pilot likely tried, and explained (unnecessarily, but professionally) the delay. ATC: “I don’t care” Pilot couldn’t get clear fast enough, and ATC sent the other plane around, and got his knickers knotted around his knockers over the reason the the first plane gave. It’s a Dreamliner, not a sports car. With Boeing’s QC these days, I wouldn’t want to whip it around any corners while fully loaded either.

[@ArbitraryConstant]

"With Boeing’s QC these days" lmao

[@WX4CB]

came here to say THIS!!!!

[@jpenny]

@@ArbitraryConstant Whenever Boeing closes a door, another one flies open.

[@outermarker5801]

@@jpenny And phones, clothing and headrests fly out

[@mxslick50]

@@jpenny Boeing takes the "We have an open door policy" to new heights. (16,000 feet to be precise.)

[@douglasc9182]

Absolutely brutal and unprofessional attitude by the controller here. He's preaching to the pilot about saying things that the controller doesn't care about while stating unnecessary things that absolutely no one cares about. He gave an option to the pilot of the first plane and then didn't like the pilot's choice. The controller had the audacity to tell the pilot of the first plane that he's "not the only aircraft" while treating the second plane as if they're the only aircraft! The pilot of the first aircraft was absolutely and 100% professional.

[@jamescollier3]

he seemed to throw himself off his own game, and the pilot didn't care. zen/karma

[@drinan93]

That's standard from JFK controllers

[@ecossearthur]

Should have slowed down the Silk so as not to have an issue... Pilot yeah we are heavy and i ain't going to throw my passengers around making a fast exit!

[@NoHandle689x]

The separation on final is the responsibility of the approach controller, not tower (FAA 7110.65 5.9.5 Approach Separation). But I agree the supervisor could have a word of advice for the tower controller with regards to the comments made.

[@colt10mmsecurity68]

Oh, geeze you people are all too hyper sensitive. Will a hug make you feel any better? That controller wasn’t that bad at all. I’ve heard way worse from both pilots and controllers.

[@TaliyahP]

I like how controllers make it pilot's problems that they sequence in arrivals so tightly as to have no room for any deviation

[@whatilearnttoday5295]

This needs to change. The airport managers and the airlines need to be sued until they understand that running airports over capacity is unacceptable.

[@RLTtizME]

They have to move a lot of aircraft. THIS IS NY KENNEDY. Come on now.

[@juliogonzo2718]

@@RLTtizME no shit lol people saying they should be sued for running too many flights. Maybe they should build an extra airport on vacant land that does not exist and nobody wants LMAO

[@RLTtizME]

@@neilkurzman4907 Incoherent.

[@RLTtizME]

@@neilkurzman4907 Norse could have gone around if he was heavy and needed the entire runway.

[@christopherfranz1547]

Never let Air Traffic Control/other pilots on the radio talk you into doing something unsafe or illegal. Just don't do it. That runway belonged to the 787 until they were clear of it. I doubt anybody would have appreciated it if they had whipped it around the turn too fast and ended up stuck in the mud, shutting down the runway for a couple of hours. As a solo student pilot, I refused ATC instructions once when they were asking me to do something I couldn't safely/legally do. They didn't like it, but they got over it.

[@AshKast]

"Unable, student pilot" is what my instructor taught me to say :)

[@alandaters8547]

If anything, the controller should have mentioned the following traffic sooner. That would have given the 787 a heads up and they might have been able to plan for an earlier turnoff. His remark to the following airctraft (and everyone else) was uncalled for.

[@bigonicha3225]

@@alandaters8547dude you are landing in jfk the airport is always busy and everyone knows it

[@pedrosoandrew]

​@@bigonicha3225Not an excuse for the ATC to be a prick.

[@theancientartofmodernwarfa1850]

Your instructor taught you well and you put that into practice. Absolutely correct. The runway belongs to the airplane on it and it is the pilots RESPONSIBILITY to say UNABLE if he or she believes that if following the ATC instruction is unsafe. ATC has no authority to second guess a safety decision, although they may ask for a verbal or written explanation later.

[@patrickjoyce2276]

As a former TRACON controller, the approach controller jammed two heavies together with 4 mile separation. The local controller IMHO should have been on the horn screaming at approach for the mess up.

[@RLTtizME]

How do you know he wasn't? He was trying to make it work.

[@patrickjoyce2276]

Good point. It would be interesting to hear the exchange on the land lines between the conttollers. @@RLTtizME

[@daryltan86]

2 heavies only require 3nm separation, 4nm is plenty enough for the 1st guy to vacate safely.

[@MrBugleboyb]

controller screwed up. Would have worked if he applied speed control to #2. Then abuses the pilot for his own mis-judgment. Remedial training for you sport. !

[@bobmaslan2401]

The problem started earlier. It looks like Longboat flew through the localizer and/or got a bad vector to final, at about the same time Silk West was turning final. That resulted in the separation problem that the tower controller was handed and tried to work with. JFK and LGA are usually busy (an understatement). The controllers don's have time to listen to excuses. It all worked out. I would not fault the tower controller. Not for nothing, Sometimes, conversations might sound tense at international airports, but it is a fact that ATC at NYC airports don't speak the King's English.

[@davidgraham7932]

It's almost as if sequencing aircraft poorly with minimal separation and clearing them to land before the runway is clear might not be the best idea. Who would have thought?

[@GWNorth-db8vn]

They bring them in to land in pairs on both runways when it gets really busy.

[@Ndub1036]

Welcome to America

[@jazzi_0453]

​@@GWNorth-db8vnYea but they were cleared to land on the same runway. Makes no sense.

[@GWNorth-db8vn]

@@jazzi_0453 - That's how they do it in N. America. They often clear people before they're even on final approach.

[@jazzi_0453]

@@GWNorth-db8vn which makes no sense. Why not clear them to land when the runway is actually clear? An accident waiting to happen imo.

[@rnav36]

The Silk West guy should've also said "I don't care about all that" when ATC told him the reason for go around.

[@andij605]

He didn't sound like a native English speaker, I guess that's also why he was just minding his own business.

[@kyleshafer563]

@@andij605he also should’ve said “flight conditions” when the tower told him to say flight conditions

[@marcellkovacs5452]

The pilots handled it super professionally, I wonder what was said in the cockpit off-radio.

[@RLTtizME]

They're big boys. You can calm down.

[@justinburstein5349]

Perkele?

[@VarkaTheDragon]

A number of "What the [F-word] is wrong with [controller]", I suspect! Good on them for not letting that come through on-air!

[@RLTtizME]

@@justinburstein5349 Yes…you obviously have never gone to the libarry. You axed a silly question.

[@jonirojonironin5353]

@@VarkaTheDragon Wouldn't that be recorded in the cockpit voice recorder?

[@garyjones9023]

ATC seems to prefer risking a missed exit and runway excursion by the lead aircraft that would close the runway indefinitely. ATC misjudged how much separation might be required, and tries to shift the blame to the lead aircraft. And as others have already pointed out, the ATC is the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to providing unnecessary information (it's the lead aircraft's fault, not mine!!!)

[@neilkurzman4907]

The ATC didn’t miss judge anything. The pilot didn’t tell ATC that he couldn’t do a normal landing.

[@Anolaana]

Yeah, as Buckhorncortez said, controlled should have told the second airplane to reduce airspeed and increase separation. They were basically riding at minimum separation the whole time with no slack. Of course it's a bit hard to tell what other traffic was around there, but it's not just wake turbulence that heavy aircraft have to deal with.

[@getmeouttatennessee4473]

​@@neilkurzman4907You are DEFINITELY this NY controller 😂 Every comment with adament defense of the indefensible. Take the L fren.

[@neilkurzman4907]

@@getmeouttatennessee4473 No, I am the copilot, guess which plane?

[@areza15143]

@@neilkurzman4907 I’m sure you are trolling. How was the 787 landing abnormal? He was given two options to exit; he chose the latter. Might’ve taken a bit longer to taxi, but stuff happens. And 4 mile separation on lfinal approach is on the tight side. In any case, no excuse for this controllers commentary. It wasn’t the worst, it was just not needed.

[@victorharden5906]

This is exactly the type of controller you do not need in the tower. He is there to guide and monitor, NOT discipline…

[@ihikebc2295]

Especially if the need for "discipline" resulted from the controller's failure to ensure proper aircraft separation prior to landing. It's not a C172 he had on that runway.

[@jonaspragis]

Souded like tired overloaded teacher .. not ATC in condition.

[@mudbrayFC]

Good on the pilots. This controller needs to be reviewed. Safety is priority always.

[@RLTtizME]

THIS IS NY KENNEDY. Come on now. He doesn't need to be reviewed and won't be. This is SOP. The controller was solicitous to both aircraft until Norse fiddle farted around on their runway exit.

[@lagerstars]

@@RLTtizMEexcept of course the jet exited on the taxiway the controller offered them….

[@mrk131324]

But the controller did command the go around the moment he was not sure anymore that the runway would vacated. He might have been unnecessary angry to the 787 pilots but he did take any unreasonable risks. After all, he has to dispatch the planes as approach hands them to him.

[@baronvonrichthofen2021]

ATC was unprofessional. he doesn’t know the exact conditions of the first aircraft. They know they need to depart runway asap, but if they are heavy and need a longer deceleration distance, then that’s what they need. Captain has the last word, always.

[@Francois8011]

When you land, the runway is yours. Of course the plane shouldn’t needlessly linger on the runway, but safety is paramount. The pilots were very professional, not so much for the controller.

[@wll1500]

That's the tough part about places like JFK, there's so much traffic that you are under huge pressure to run smoothly and not cause any little delay

[@pchris6662]

The funniest part was ATC trying to make a buddy out of the second pilot but he was having none of it. It’s almost as if that second pilot knows how tricky it is to bring a heavy aircraft to a halt and slow down enough to make a premature left turn exit off the runway. I bet that ATC guy sits all by himself at lunch too because he doesn’t have any friends there either.

[@bigonicha3225]

Yeah you being a jerk bruv about what you saying

[@neilkurzman4907]

You mean the pilot that he had to send around and put back into the pattern. Backing up everyone behind him. You do know the flights are scheduled. If enough pilots can’t land their planes properly, then other planes are not going to get clearance to takeoff to New York. Hundreds of pilots land at JFK every day with heavy planes. If he needed special consideration, he should’ve talked about it before he blocked an active runway.

[@juliogonzo2718]

I'm pretty sure the guy who went around didn't like longboat or the controller very much. Fuel is expensive

[@getmeouttatennessee4473]

Knew we'd catch Neil here. Ya messed up fren.

[@neilkurzman4907]

@@getmeouttatennessee4473 Because I posted before and the AI keeps giving these to me?

[@buckhorncortez]

The problem at many airports is excess traffic during peak time periods meaning every landing slot is allocated to incoming traffic. This puts the controllers in a position of having to disrupt the entire air traffic flow with a go-around or try to sequence the planes into the airport as fast as possible. The controller should have reduced the second plane's speed slightly when they were being sequenced to allow the first plane time to exit the runway. However, the controller's response to the captain of a plane given the runway is unacceptable and the captain should have filed a complaint.

[@whatilearnttoday5295]

The problem is management running airports over capacity.

[@buckhorncortez]

@@whatilearnttoday5295 Partially true. But the controllers don't work for the airport. The FAA sets the maximum traffic load through mandated landing and takeoff intervals. The airport has no control over that. The airport's problem is that in most cases there is no way to expand capacity through additional runways. In Orlando, as an example, a partial answer was shifting charter flights and some regional traffic to Sanford Airport to relieve Orlando International of that traffic.

[@whatilearnttoday5295]

@@buckhorncortez If you're at capacity. Raise prices until volume falls off.

[@buckhorncortez]

@@whatilearnttoday5295 That's not how airports work. They are non-profits by federal law. They have a fiduciary responsibility to provide service to the public and have to operate following FAA regulations. The landing fee cost (rate / 1,000 pounds) is negotiated between the airlines (collectively) and the airport, it is not a unilateral airport decision. No other rate charges would affect airline operations. Most gate charges, ground fees, etc. are done on the amount of time the area is in use, not a per-square-foot fixed lease charge. Generally, the fixed charges are for office space. Ticketing area charges may be a fixed square foot cost or can be done on a usage basis if the airport has a common-use terminal equipment (CUTE) system. Limiting flights into and out of an airport is not a singular airport decision.

[@-108-]

...ESPECIALLY in considering the possible wake turbulence; There was plenty of reason for him to slow the following aircraft down.

[@dasy2k1]

It's notable that in much of Europe you can't actually clear a second aircraft to land until the first has vacated the runway. That's why you hear "continue approach" much more often in Europe Once they say cleared to land then they are confirming the runway is clear and that nothing had been cleared to enter it until you are clear

[@StvRdhll]

Yes. That American multi clearance to land phraseology is accident waiting happen. Dangerous practise.

[@aristhought]

Don’t want to armchair ATC but it seemed like the sequencing was too tight; the first aircraft could not have exited the runway any faster and the ATC’s comments are unhelpful. If you gave the option of exit U3 then expect the aircraft to take that option. Maybe ATC had a long day but the first aircraft wasn’t doing anything wrong, or slowing/stopping on the runway. PS: Love how the Silk West pilot just going “that’s okay no worries.” Def no animosity towards the Norse Atl pilots in front of him. Edit: JFK is always busy so I understand the close sequencing. Regardless the first plane couldn’t have exited the runway faster. No need to point fingers at the pilots for a very normal occurrence at busy airports.

[@jort93z]

There might have been a plane behind the silk west so they couldn't seperate them more. They cut out the other aircraft and calls. He asked them for their flight conditions, probably because of the wake turbulence, so he knows they are very close.

[@Arcadiez]

It's winter season, meaning you have to exit at slower speed than normal(eg we require 5-10kts) plus neither of them are high speed turn offs. Just very poor ATC, seems to be a common trend in murica. So many close calls is insane, Amazing how FAA hasn't stepped in yet. @@jort93z

[@filthyusratus]

Yeah I thought they were too close should have slowed the silk air a little no problem.... but these controllers are @rseholes

[@bigonicha3225]

It was a b747 so they couldn’t let it log behind cause it would cause wake turbulence for the guys behind

[@aristhought]

@@jort93z Yeah I edited my comment to add that esp w JFK the tight sequencing is understandable. The first plane still didn’t do anything wrong tho from what I can tell. Controller prob had a long day but it was unprofessional to blame the pilot in this case.

[@Xg78]

JFK ATC is getting worse. That‘s so unprofessional. What also confuses me about (mostly US) ATC is that they give landing clearances for 2 aircraft at the same time.

[@AshKast]

That's standard in the US. Multiple aircrafts can be given clearance to land at the same time. However, they tell you your number in line, for example, "N123456 RWY 13 following the Cessna number 2 cleared to land." Also common is having an aircraft line up and wait while another one is on a take off roll. They can't however have two or more rolling aircrafts on the runway at the same time. If things don't go smoothly, they ask you to go around.

[@Xg78]

@@AshKast Thanks for the explanation! Seems like it‘s a clear thing in theory, but these close calls recently need to stop :/ There are so many videos about them to think about changing it. I mean, here in Europe they still manage high traffic volumes without clearing 2 aircraft at the same time on one runway afaik

[@AshKast]

@@Xg78 Oh, I totally agree. It can get confusing. Hopefully the FAA takes a second look at this practice.

[@colinpotter7764]

⁠​⁠@@AshKastwhat happens if the controllers microphone goes u/s, or the frequency gets blocked?

[@AshKast]

@@colinpotter7764 I guess close calls. I'm not saying I agree with this. Also, I'm just a student pilot (:

[@stevejh69]

That controller needs to be FIRED! The arrogant little child should not be in ATC!

[@philjamieson9501]

Totally on the tower. Choice of exits then panic and finger pointing. Thats not how it works.

[@MrHappyMickey]

Sorry but this is all on the ATC. They should spread the flights out better even when it comes to heavies. ATC asking the behind flight about "flight conditions" (for wake turbulence) was the first clue they were packing flights too close. Flight controller needs to be benched!

[@RLTtizME]

He wont be benched. That is ridiculous. THIS NY KENNEDY. They have to move aircraft. Tower has to take what Approach sends down the chute. Try second guessing yourself for laughs.

[@PilotJoeFL]

As a Pilot when I say unable, it becomes ATC's problem to deal with. Not my job to be unsafe because it is an inconvenience to them. ATC needs to start getting dings on their record for this like pilots do when we mess up or act a fool.

[@dougwatson6406]

Controller was rude, no need for that.

[@RLTtizME]

He wasn't rude. You are too sensitive. THIS IS NY KENNEDY.....not Rockford International Airport.

[@giantaxe3958]

⁠@@RLTtizMEBoth London Heathrow and Tokyo Haneda move many more passengers a year and even with that, the controllers are still able to maintain a decent level of respect and decorum. JFK controllers are just a different breed.

[@RLTtizME]

@@giantaxe3958 That's why you would have lost WWII without us. Sorry.....

[@giantaxe3958]

@@RLTtizME Oh lord. I sincerely hope you don’t represent the average American.

[@razorseal]

Pretty common stuff. Crew handled it perfectly. No talk back, no waste of radio space.

[@NoewerrATall]

No one is going to mention the awesome Norse call sign?? Definitely one of the best!

[@juliogonzo2718]

Maybe should be slowboat instead lol

[@hrothabandinak6602]

I find it reassuring to discover that it's not just passengers who get treated like garbage at JFK

[@EdOeuna]

Guidance for the correct exit lies in the charts for the airport with which the pilots plan their landing, rollout and taxi. ATC can’t request you to exit at a certain point because they don’t have a clue about your aircraft performance. Exiting via a 90° turn requires speeds less than 10kts as opposed to 50-60kts for high speed exits.

[@jakeadams7698]

This is becoming the new trend with ATC, trying too hard to push tin, and when safety conscious pilots decide to slow down and be cautious, they are berated by ATC. So much for safety in aviation.

[@Ndub1036]

True, but they can also communicate that they might need extra time with a known aircraft in tight trail.

[@jakeadams7698]

@@Ndub1036I agree. My issue is that, other than emergencies, a landing aircraft has priority. & considering that they were still in the landing/ slowing to a taxi phase, I would argue that they still had priority. Either space your arrivals enough or be ready for multiple ATC caused go arounds. No chief pilot wants to hear about how your actions resulted in damage to the aircraft because you were trying to make an ATC directed exit in order to free the runway for an arriving aircraft.

[@MCMXI1]

Blame the FAA not the controller.

[@tomstravels520]

At least if the pilots choose to complain about him they have it all recorded

[@JFirn86Q]

The Norse aircraft could have just said "Unable" to the controllers "hurry off the runway" crap. But he was polite and told the controller he can't because of how heavy he is. Sheesh.

[@eswillie]

I did ATC for a decade and I can say that the controller was not only unprofessional, he was incorrect in giving both aircraft landing clearance for 31R and in not allowing enough separation between the two (and both coming in heavy). I know they've been cutting margins at many busy airports, and many controllers are poorly trained and overworked, but that's no excuse when lives are at stake. That's my two cents for what it's worth.

[@thannyd]

In 'murica it's standard for ATC to say " number 4, cleared to land". Lots of near accidents because of that and they still keep doing it. Let's hope they don't need an accident worse like at Haneda, before they change that.

[@AnonyMous-jf4lc]

I call bullshit on your ATC experience. Maybe you did at a slow delta… that would be it. They aren’t “coming in heavy”, saying heavy is a designation for aircraft over 300k lbs max certified takeoff weight. It alerts everyone to the severe wake turbulence they generate. All landing aircraft are expected to exit the runway as quick as possible unless given other instructions. Some people think the world waits for them.

[@Odysseuss.]

ROFL thanks for that @@AnonyMous-jf4lc

[@artrandy]

@@AnonyMous-jf4lc So why give Longboat 70A a choice of where to exit the runway, if he then resents what choice he's making? I call bullsh*t on your intelligence........

[@eswillie]

Clearly you have little or no aviation experience or common sense. And, yes, I do know what the heavy designation refers to and why it's important for several factors related to this post. I most certainly did do air traffic control, not at JFK or LGA, but I did run the busiest heliport in the country and actually the world for over a decade in NYC and I also composed the flight rules and holding patterns for the areas outside of ATC control (which the FAA refused to implement for two decades after I had left the field, and that was only after several fatal incidents in the NYC area). There is actually a place for common sense and common decency and also brevity in flight communication, none of which was practiced by the controller in this particular instance. Thanks for your input, but with the attitude you expressed, I would certainly not have allowed you to sub for me in any control capacity.@@AnonyMous-jf4lc

[@arthurbrumagem3844]

I’m GA and had our local tower tell me to exit the runway before I slowed down safely as she cleared another plane to land. I told her “ unable, you gave me the runway and it’s mine until I’m safe to turn.” She wasn’t happy. Don’t care

[@andyb2515]

As an ex controller, firstly there was no need to stuff the 747 close behind the 787, minimum vortex separation should have been applied The Norse was allowed to use either exit, runway occupancy is important but aircraft safety is paramount The controller was totally unprofessional The Norse pilot was very professional

[@wendycregan2147]

Pilot to controller "when you're ready I have a number for you to copy"

[@detroitbucknut]

tight stacking is the controller's problem, not the pilot's.

[@gpslightlock1422]

"I don't care" is not professional, especially in government. If they don't care they should rethink their career path.

[@donjohnston4215]

Controller basically told the pilot he didn’t care about physics. I’ve got a super heavy plane, I don’t care stop faster.

[@SkippyRo]

I'm not a controller, but why would you put a heavy 4 miles behind another heavy, in the final phase of flight, when there is little or no option to speed up 1 and slow down 2? Pilot 1 made no comebacks on the radio (far more professional than I would have been) but if I were him, damn sure I'd be filing a complaint on that controller.

[@user-pf5xq3lq8i]

Well done to the pilots for not taking the bait for the rude NY atc. Clearly there was poor spacing from the following plane.

[@avgjoeavglife]

That controller is a perfect example of what New Yorkers are like.

[@NoName-zn1sb]

New Yorkers are

[@avgjoeavglife]

@@NoName-zn1sb I fixed it.

[@carsey2009]

Our good British Pilots should have asked Tower for a Contact number and stuck a complaint in. That would have knocked ATC off his high horse.

[@shaanemillat]

I strongly agree - especially after vacating the runway.

[@airplanegeek893]

That guy needs to go. Very unprofessional. Good job on both crews for keeping cool.

[@Ralf947]

Pilot to controller: "I do have a number for you".

[@rael5469]

One time when as a mechanic I was taxiing an A320 and a coyote got in front of us and sat down. We had already been cleared to cross a runway but I applied the brakes and slowed so as not to ingest the coyote and the animal got up and walked off the taxiway almost immediately. So I let the tower know that we were delayed by an animal on the taxiway and he says to continue and cross the runway. Well my partner and I looked down the runway and there is a 727 touching down on the runway. We hadn't slowed down because the controller said to go. Just as we finished crossing the runway and made the turn that 727 roared past us on the runway. I swore to my self (like Scarlet O'Hara) "As God is my witness I will never let myself be rushed while taxiing ever again."

[@jimeditorial]

The PIC has the last word on safety. You can't accelerate and brake a heavy widebody like a sportscar. Thr controller was out of line

[@l.hammer5355]

From the transcript here, I would actually say that this would be a good "use case" in the education of ATC´s, assuming that no NOTAMs regarding the usage of runway exits had been issued to arriving aircraft and not mentioned here! Pilots are very aware of the traffic situation at JFK and know very well that there is an aircraft in front of them and directly behind them. This is of course also a factor taken into consideration when planning the arrival, along with projected breaking distance (wet/slippery/dry surface) and aircraft brakes used (auto brake/reverse thrust levels). This was probably clear to the pilots in due time before landing the aircraft and I am guessing that U3 was target exit for the pic. From a pilots point of view - there is really no issue here....and this 787 did absolutely nothing "wrong". In any case....31R belongs to the 787 from the time the CTL is given until the aircraft has fully cleared the runway. Should be a basic ATC 1.01. But then again...assuming ATC is the "ref" and the pilots "the players"...we all know that refs have bad days on the pitch once in a while....

[@mattregan3394]

This specific ATC at Kennedy is consistently unprofessional and beyond rude. If I was a pilot, I'd be taking this guy down a couple of pegs.

[@chrisanderson4799]

As a professional pilot who flys into JFK, along with all the other big airports, and small airports for that matter, what gets me is they always tell you where to turn off when your still doing 85 knts about abeam the turn. Why can’t they brief you when you are on about a 3-5 mile final where they would like you to exit so you can come up with a plan? This whole issue was on the controller. He was the one who put to airplanes 4 miles apart.

[@davidkavanagh189]

Not to mention the fact that the 787 crew still exited at one of the options he gave them.

[@sidewind131258]

It is like my line of work as a scaffolder, you never have time to do the things the right way at first, but there are all the time in the world to repair damages from first try legligence

[@LouisWaweru]

Welcome to New York. Far too many of our public facing employees sound just like this guy.

[@rboy91]

Well done Norse 👌

[@capt.imanuddinyunusshmh.6549]

Thanks for sharing

[@joea5228]

Aircraft #1 gets to use the entire runway to the end if necessary. Atc must be prepared for that to happen occasionally, especially with the big boys/english non-native speakers/wet runways etc. we don’t know the runway conditions here.

[@JPH1786]

Disregard the bad heading I gave you, I was too busy being snarky on the radio

[@SuperSnallygaster]

Why was the tower pissed? They did exactly what they were told - they exited at U3.

[@danielbroadbridge886]

It seems to me that the Norse pilots did their level best to get off at V to appease the controller, and in the process delayed their exit at U3, which is considerably further along. Had the controller given them U3 to begin with, they may well have gotten their sooner.

[@georgec9590]

Thought controller gave them the option for either of the two exits. Controller felt his assessment of the planes speed was better than the pilot maneuvering the aircraft. Cm'on man!

[@mt5144]

The flight controller cleared The Norske 787 Landing clearance of 2 exits V or Left U3 @ 1.36 then at 1.41 5 seconds later he went into Panic Mode tellingUBT70A to exit the runway quickly, does he actually know even at the exit it takes 6 -10 seconds to clear the runway. The controller clearly didn't have enough separation between the Silk Air 8112 & the Norsk 787 Dreamliner, Flight Controller was extremely Abrupt in his message and should have been pulled up about this incident.

[@waynec9444]

JFK ATC very UNprofessional. That controller needs some extra training.

[@R32R38]

Or he can be fired. I'm sure there will be 500 fully qualified applicants applying for the job.

[@umbreonpokemon8190]

1:55 Nobody cares about safety. NOBODY. Everyone is in a rush especially ATC who is on a shift and isnt going anywhere......Nobody cares until there is an accident....

[@HDjeff]

Wow, so unprofessional! The Norse pilot did a great job keeping his cool.

[@Bugy34]

this controller does not care how heavy? well he should take this information into account, since this is his job to separate planes. I would answer, I don't care who is behind me.

[@onkelfabs6408]

The interesting part is that the controller gets distracted at the end and starts to misspeak. All of that only because he gets so riled up. That's another lession to learn here: don't base your emotional state on other people's input.

[@ForAncientKingAndElvishLord]

I wish the pilot would file a complaint.

[@BobbyGeneric145]

I had this exact experience after 22L reopened... No rwy lights, it was daek, and my rj900 had terrible landing lights. Point being, I could barely see as it was twilight. I miss one exit, controller yells. "Endeavor, maddog on a mile final...expedite". Missed the next one because I was tryin to rush, so finally said Fukk it I own this runway til I'm safely off it. Maddog goes around pissing and moaning. Tower yells at me and I snapped back "bro your janky airport has no lights on this rwy and I can't see... Would you prefer I go off the end because your approach controller cant manage his spacing?

[@akfox38]

All of you trying to argue that the pilot shouldn't be able to delay getting off the runway- if for any reason you can't exit at the requested taxiway you call 'unable' . The pilot in command has complete authority to do so. No pilot would intentionally do it for a silly reason to just dilly-dally, it's usually when you're still at a bitter higher speed than you want and it's not worth having a loss of control or overrunning off the taxi-way or cause overheating of brakes on larger, heavy aircraft. Even in smaller Cessna's I fly this is the case sometimes. Go-arounds do get called on following aircraft once in a while for this reason and it's all SOP.

[@tomstravels520]

Looking at the radar track and data it seems the pilots tried to slow down for V as it’s a partial high speed exit but when given the option they decided to continue to the next one rather than slam on the brakes causing extra heat and discomfort for passengers. Except they were already nearly at exit speed so they would have had to suddenly increase thrust to accelerate again (would take time due to heavy weight then you’d have to brake harder again) or let it roll at about 40 knots

[@jamescollier3]

they shouldn't listen to the ATC.

[@marcmcreynolds2827]

A long time ago I did "airport capacity improvement" simulations to examine whether standard high-speed exits could be better utilized. I don't recall a "partial high-speed exit" (maybe they didn't exist yet?). What are the parameters for those?

[@tomstravels520]

@@marcmcreynolds2827 just have a look at the chart for JFK. V isn’t the standard angle for high speed exit compared to WW before it but it’s not a 90 degree turn either

[@marcmcreynolds2827]

@@tomstravels520 I meant is there a rated exit speed, like IIRC 60 kt for a high-speed exit. BTW a big problem with the concept of increasing landing rate by having aircraft exit at a higher speed is how that rate would come and go with the runway condition: A dry runway would allow a certain cadence, but any contamination reduces the number (nose tire skid limit) and there's sometimes no way to tell in advance as the arrivals are stacked whether that will change. Not much of a factor in the sunny Southwest USA, but the Northeast Corridor etc tends to be unpredictable.

[@tomstravels520]

@@marcmcreynolds2827 40 knots for a proper high speed exit, 10 knots for a 90 degree

[@danpeters6874]

Controller clearly told the pilot to use U3 if he couldn’t make V, the pilot complied.

[@Eleknor]

I wonder how often that controller yells at other drivers on the road for not getting out of his way fast enough.

[@christianchristiansen99]

That “I don’t care” remark to me showcased a lack of situational awareness. His (initially) botched instructions to the following aircraft shows he got so worked up about what was essentially his own simple misjudgment that he was barely capable of handling the situation. A more seasoned controller would realize that the small separation between these planes might cause a go around and be mentally prepared for that scenario.

[@dcooper5982]

Is it just me but there’s much more pissing matches between flight crews and controllers. Where did the professionalism, rapport and just simple respect go? I understand both sides of the coin have stress and work demands but all this is just absolutely unnecessary.

[@J.n.A.1993]

THIS.

[@BLACKMONGOOSE13]

It’s just the way the whole world is going man. No one has time for anyone any more any where.

[@dcooper5982]

@@BLACKMONGOOSE13 Really sad ain’t it where the world is heading especially here in the US. This kind a bs does not occur overseas.

[@mysticknight9711]

That controller needs to go back to school or be fired. However, there are some other problems not apparent from the recording … AFAIK JFK has separate controllers for approach vs landing, and the subsequent approach was already set up too closely by the previous controller … 1 or 2 mile spacing is way to close for such large aircraft … minimum spacing should be at least 60 seconds or 3 miles. FWIW

[@thomasdalton1508]

The sarcasm from the controller at 2:13 was rather unprofessional. If it weren't for that, I would say the whole thing was a non-event. When you are having planes approach with such little separation it is inevitable that sometimes you'll have go arounds. With the exception of the unhelpful sarcasm, I think everyone handled it well.

[@terryboyer1342]

Controller is a typical New Yorker. Short and rude. They pride themselves for this. One reason I''ll never go there.

[@heinzpilot]

I guess all us Pilots got our pilot license spending hundreds of thousands of dollars so a controller has a job😊

[@davebollmann5292]

I flew my Cherokee 180 into Newark International in early 70 's at 8 AM from Allentown PA. ATC told me to follow 747 on short final. Then there were three 747's behind me. ATC said keep your speed up. I landed at full cruise speed above wake turbulence on a long runway with no problem.

[@MrMadBaggins]

The AT Controller could have potentially caused either an incursion or a down right accident because of his lack of situational awareness of the second plane coming in behind the first plane! Yes, it's very likely the first plane was so loaded with passengers and luggage that it couldn't move fast enough. I see these scenarios a lot with large passenger planes.

[@AAAskeet]

Great job on the landed heavy pilot staying professional

[@carlos23161]

The controller didn’t ask the 747 to slow to minimum speed sooner.

[@StewartChambers]

Controller got a flap on while pilots remained calm and professional

[@KingSosa97]

This has been a problem at JFK…. it’s sad that this hasn’t been rectified decades ago. Best controller I’ve heard was the guy who used to be in Boston all those yrs ago

[@KingSosa97]

If the pilot dosent feel safe don’t rush him go arounds happen

[@whatilearnttoday5295]

This is a problem everywhere. They'e running over capacity at the expense of safety.

[@pjotrtje0NL]

@@whatilearnttoday5295perhaps in the US, but on my turf (EHAM) this behaviour is unacceptable. Safety first. Oh, and that shitty procedure where everyone on final gets a landing clearance? That should be abolished right away!

[@sophietaylor9753]

​@@pjotrtje0NLYeah. Like, the runway is MANIFESTLY unclear. Why pretend otherwise?

[@KingSosa97]

@@pjotrtje0NL exactly they should have more separation or at least tell the trailing aircraft to reduce to final approach speed and make sure that the short final aircraft understands to expedite prior to touchdown

[@crimson005]

The best bit is (and not picked up in the subtitles) it at 2:30 when the pilot adds 'that's your problem' to his signoff 😂

[@positivelyacademical1519]

Is it me, or would a lot of these separation issues not be issues if ATC didn’t clear the second plane to land until after the first has vacated the runway?

[@philliplipple1799]

Suspend that tower controller, refresher training required.

[@gmvillan]

I learned very early in my pilot training that once you are cleared to land then that is your runway until such time you are able to safely exit. I was flying at an uncontrolled airport and knew that there was an aircraft coming in to land behind me, so I did what I thought was the right thing (being courteous) and attempted to exit onto a taxiway before I had slowed the airplane to a safe taxi speed. My instructor gave me both barrels and I never made that mistake again. This JFK controller should be held accountable for that pathetic remark.

[@officiallynrgxlr8tr]

LOL. Air traffic controllers getting fired. They’re already working mandatory 6 day weekly overtime, FAA can’t afford to fire anyone.

[@gmvillan]

@@officiallynrgxlr8tr Holding him accountable isn't a suggestion of firing, but he certainly needs re-training and some type of action/discipline that ensures he never speaks over the radio like that again.

[@officiallynrgxlr8tr]

@@gmvillan there's a good chance he's an instructor tbh

[@C420sailor]

Good on the crew. If tower ever tells me to make an exit that I can’t make safely, they get an “unable”. If they have a problem with that, tough shit. The safety of my passengers, crew, and airplane come first.

[@xplayman]

The pilot didn't need to get into explaining without being prompted. He was given the option of V or U3 so just take the option and do it. And if unable to comply with an instruction from ATC just say, "Unable." But the pilot didn't do anything wrong. Tower didn't need to add the extra dialogue himself either. A simple "expedite" will do and maybe a phone call to Approach not to sequence two heavies so close together. Tower was basically trying to taxi the plane himself and giving a hard time to a pilot who was not at fault for the sequencing or their speed safely taxiing off the runway.

[@saxmanb777]

This is the type of thing I’d ask a phone number for maybe from the ground controller to talk to the supervisor. The runway is mine when I land until I safely exit. Especially when they are literally following the instructions of the controller.

[@Arcadiez]

Well london can squeeze in aircraft without the fuck ups, why is it always an issue for murican atc? dont do minimum separation, plan ahead, you see it's dreamliner not a none HIGH SPEED TURN OFFS, either vector the one behind or tell to go for approach speed(config early)

[@fortich22]

NYC ATC at It's finest!!!

[@RomNYC]

On a New York scale, this is called a warm welcome!

[@jillcrowe2626]

@RomNYC. You're right. After I left Boston 40 years ago, I had forgotten how rude New Yorkers are. Then my church got a new minister from NYC. It took a long while for everyone to get used to her! Everybody thought that she hated them.

[@wotan10950]

Hardly. I’m a lifelong New Yorker, and yeah, we can seem a little impatient. But when an out-of-towner needs help, we’re there. Having said that, the controller was very rude, even shocking me.

[@hatpeach1]

Ahhh. Finally understand why the call "heavy" matters.

[@eddiejones.redvees]

Who is flying the plane it’s up to the pilot for the safety of his passengers what he does air traffic control are only the to help out he needs more training I would be phoning his boss if I was that pilot

[@imik3y]

I’m not a pilot or atc but feels like you shouldn’t clear an aircraft to land if another aircraft is yet to land in front.