Terra Nil Claims It's A Reverse Citybuilder. It Isn't.

[@ArchitectofGames]

!noertaP no lennahc eht troppuS: www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames Elon Musk is a cool guy and twitter is a great platform, haha! What a crazy time we'd be having if we were in anti-earth and I was actively rooting for the downfall of the site - crazy!: twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot

[@FatWalterWhite69]

Unsubscribing

[@michimatsch5862]

Why?

[@Mygg_Jeager]

Hey man, mind if I ask what game it is at the 1:11 mark?

[@Mygg_Jeager]

​@@maninthemask6275 You seem to spend an awful lot of time thinking about child predators... 🤔

[@FatWalterWhite69]

@@michimatsch5862 he hates Elon and free speech

[@bluehax6]

I feel like the idea of terra nil being a "reverse city builder" is a bit of a misnomer in a way, as I think it's trying to be a more thematic selling point rather than in terms of the gameplay and genre. It's a reverse city builder in the sense that you're returning the world to a natural state rather than conquering it, instead of it literally being a city builder in reverse.

[@nerdywolverine8640]

exactly, and i assumed that thematic meaning would apply to the gameplay too, making it an "anti" city builder. if you read it as the reverse of a city builder rather than a city builder in reverse that's what you get.

[@NC3EFN]

its still fun asf though

[@siph0r154]

I agree. Honestly. I call Terra Nil mechanically what it is. A puzzle game. A very nice puzzle game with neat mechanics, a very generous failure and win state and a good message.

[@AnotherDuck]

@@siph0r154 I'd call it a puzzle game as well. Or problem solving game, since it's not about a single solution.

[@OhNoBohNo]

thematic reverse city building v. conceptual reverse city builder?...

[@KeroTheInvincible]

I would have thought a reverse city builder would be a game where the budding metropolis is actually the enemy, controlled by A.I. And you have to put together efficient ways of sabotaging and destroying the city as it tries to develop.

[@blacklightredlight2945]

Thats such a good idea

[@MrSpacat]

Same here I though you would have to go against a stable society and somehow topple all that through whatever means necessary

[@nobbyfirefly57]

Same

[@notbutz9737]

Isn't that just a single player RTS?

[@ramdom_player201]

I also thought from the title that it would be something like this

[@Lytane]

It is due to that "genre burnout" that I do not play many AAA games anymore. I play a lot more Indie games or small team games because it is there that either a new and interesting idea can be put forth or it can subvert my expectations. Games like Spiritfarer, Wuppo, Underhero and Celeste have been some of my fondest games in the last 2 years because of how good they are, how unique they are and how they make me feel something new.

[@Muskar2]

I've been experiencing broad gaming burnout for several years and I've yet to figure out exactly why. Unfortunately I don't think it's only about desiring to be surprised like with this anti-game theory - because it doesn't make me appreciate the predictable games again (anymore?). My childhood favorites are still fond memories, but I don't enjoy playing them anymore. The closest I can come is vicarious enjoyment when playing games with someone else who enjoys the game. Or designing my own game and thinking about how much fun it'll be for the players. Am I alone in feeling this way?

[@sourestcake]

@@Muskar2 I'm the exact same way. I can only really enjoy games with other people. I used to love Garry's Mod, but now it just feels empty. So i've moved onto designing my own games.

[@Muskar2]

@@sourestcake Thank you for sharing that. That means a lot.

[@subhazard4297]

Play Ctrl Alt Ego, you'll love it.

[@veradrost9654]

@@Muskar2 I felt the need to reply to this, because I felt this way for a while. In my case it was both a consequence of getting bored with them, but also because I had short-term depression. Therapy and medication helped me enjoy videogames again after a year or two. If it's not just videogames, it could be a good idea to seek out counseling. If it is JUST video games, then maybe distance will make the heart grow fonder?

[@TheGallicWitch]

This is something I've found myself explaining a lot to my gamer friends. I consider myself a gamer for sure and I love video games, but compared to the majority, I really didn't get the "gaming growing up" experience. My first "actual" video game was TES Oblivion and I played it at the age of 20. I had some money left from a birthday gift card at an art shop, it was the sales season and there was the 10-year anniversary edition of Oblivion on sale. I had no idea what it was, I just thought the jacket looked interesting and I had played a bunch of DS games up until I was 15 or so, so I had a mild understanding of video games. So I thought hey, why not, for that price I can buy something I might not use at all. When I took the train back to my university flat, I opened my study laptop, put the CD inside and booted up Oblivion. I cannot begin to explain what it's like playing your first video game at 20 and having NONE of the background knowledge you reference in this video. I understood NOTHING. I was so lost, but it was *so fun*. I spent the entire train ride just on the tutorial level, hopelessly lost on how the game worked and constantly referencing the barebone paper game manual that came with the box. I played Oblivion for hours, trying to figure out mechanics and gameplay and what the game expected of me. It doesn't help that I was born with a disability so I struggled at times with using my hands (which is the reason why, 5 years later, I still haven't played a single game with a controller - yes, I do indeed play Dark Souls and other similar games with mouse and keyboards, sue my body, not me). But I had a blast. It was so fun, no matter how much I struggled. I remember my best friend coming to my flat to spend some quality time afternoon, and I had been playing Oblivion. At the time, I was perhaps 20% done with the game and I had still not figured out hwo the lockpicking worked. I would spend literal hours on the same lock. And she came into my room, asking what I was doing, so I showed her my laptop and explained what I was stuck on. She had never played a video game either, and we spent almost the entire afternoon slouched on the bed, looking at my poor study laptop, trying lock after lock and doing our best to figure out this damn mechanic. It was so much fun and a great memory. Playing Oblivion, it never occurred to me that other video games existed; I didn't know what Steam was, since I installed from a box CD, so I just kept playing Oblivion. For over a year, I spent more than 400 hours in the game, polishing the hell at of it. At that point, I had shown my sister this incredible thing I had found, since we're so close in years, and we would take turn on my laptop playing it for hours. So one day, when my next birthday came around and I got that same art shop gift card, I went back and something caught my eye: the box set for the GOTY edition of TES Skyrim. I recognised the font, the name, I was so excited! My sister was with me and we were screetching like dinosaurs in the shop, two 20-something starring at their second video game ever. I immediately bought it, and we collectively sunk another 800 hours into the game over the next year or so. So many new mechanics, stuff we didn't understand, but we began to see the pattern, that intrinsic knowledge you're talking about, all those things you "just know" when you've played game before. And this was our pattern. About twice a year, we would go to that art shop (since, to our knowledge, that was the only way to get games) and we picked up what we found interesting. Our third video game was Dishonored, and to this day, still my favourite game ever. The fourth was Shadow of Mordor, my sister's favourite of all time. We've played a LOT of games since, discovered Steam, discovered the gaming world in general. But because we came into games so late and had to play catch up, we never forgot that lack of knowledge we had at the beginning, how much we struggled because NOTHING was explained to us on a level we could understand. The games just *assumed* we knew that hitting space would make us jump. I remember having a notepad next to the computer while playing Oblivion, where I would religiously write down the controls and tutorial bits I got from the games and rephrase it in ways I could understand and easily reference while playing. It was such a cool way to get into game, this organic "let's figure it out as a team" mentality between my sister and I, discovering games one after the other. Probably one of the best experiences of my life.

[@LoganChristianson]

You're the best type of person to share childhood favorites with! So many games I love and appreciate but it's hard to recommend to other people who have played countless games, and so bring in so much baggage when I try to introduce something to them that I loved long ago.

[@VitorHugoOliveiraSousa]

Most gamers started to play to soon to remember those moments of figuring out the implicit rules. The closes I have is that I started playing shooters with analog sticks a bit late, like 10 or so years old. I remember that was a frustrating nightmare. I couldn't walk and look at the same time at all, it was just so confusing, like trying to look to different things with each eye at the same time. It seemed impossible to synchronize and control both hands at the same time. And ended up looking at lot to the ground and sky. Almost gave up, but the allure of shooting game was so good I persevered. And today it's natural, don't even think about it. It's like breading.

[@Breifcaseguy1]

Exploring the Options menu is an adventure even in itself, I know a few people who are terrified of breaking things who see the options menu and completely avoid it. How did you feel after discovering that options existed?

[@TheReaper569]

you arent a gamer then.

[@combeferret]

This was a lovely story!!

[@nestlenightmare]

I have to disagree with the idea that humans and nature can’t coexist, but this looks like a very interesting game. I think that there needs to be some “untouched” areas of the world, just due to the fact that humans can’t really live with deer and bears and larger animals such as that knocking at their door, and those larger animals can’t live in the environment that human habitation requires. However, thinking of nature as something outside of humanity is not a helpful idea. Even though it’s not perfect, integrating plants and animals into our lives is a good way to bring biodiversity back in a lot of cases. Neighborhood community gardens, wildflower sanctuaries in cities, green roofs, more diversity in lawns, planting things that can survive in the climate they’re planted in without excess watering… It’s possible to coexist to an extent.

[@nestlenightmare]

I kind of went on a long rant there that was only tangentially related to the video. Good video! Good game! I just wanted to throw out some ecology knowledge :)

[@LowestofheDead]

You should check out some videos about Murray Bookchin. He was a philosopher who discussed how humans are a part of nature and can't be fully separated from it (just like a houseplant can't be separated from the soil). Our cities are _also_ a kind of nature, just like beehives. So humans can either live in conflict with the rest of nature, or in harmony with it.

[@fishsticxz]

i came to the comments to see if someone else would be talking about this! more of a criticism on the potential message of the game rather than the video itself i guess, but humans and nature have peacefully coexisted for ages, especially in the form of indigenous people who take great care of the nature around them and the nature in turn provides for them. saying that humans aren't part of nature is just plain wrong - the real issue stems from many people forgetting that fact lately! if we listened to indigenous people more, we could build a society that wouldn't exploit nature and instead live as a part of it

[@LayneBenofsky]

I totally agree with you -- though in the commentary, the question was posed about whether nature and human *endeavors* can coexist -- and I took that to mean tech advancement, megaprojects, etc. We're always so busy and consuming! :D

[@Of-lf1rd]

Not only possible, but necessary to coexist

[@xIQ188x]

“Terra Nil isn’t a reverse city builder, it doesn’t scratch my city planning itch.” I genuinely want to hear him define “reverse”.

[@isaacfriedman9058]

Yes, this. I was screaming variations of this at the screen up until the moment he said "it's not a reverse citybuilder, it's an anti citybuilder." He's an idiot who doesn't know how words work.

[@DiegoRodriguez-jh4sd]

yeah, i was really scratching my head at that. like that's the point. this is a good video but the premise is flawed

[@kspreetheunicorn6243]

that annoyed me so much lol these youtube Video-Essay people sure be talking out of their ass sometimes haha

[@PlayerSlotAvailable]

I get what he means. "This is a puzzle game" "This is a reverse city builder" The former I think gives a better idea of what the game actually is. Even if you call it a reverse city builder, I'd expect it to be similar to a city builder, but with a twist. Imagine Tetris calling itself a reverse RPG game. Sure, you aren't playing a role in Tetris, but I was kinda expecting something else from the description "reverse RPG".

[@chaotixthefox]

It's not a reverse city builder. You don't deconstruct buildings and chase away people.

[@Str0b0]

I love channels like Razbuten, Game Maker's Toolkit and this one, which dig deeper in the game mechanics and things "under the hood" of gaming and game culture.

[@MrMan-7703]

I recommend Daryl Talks Games!

[@door_productions4896]

I regularly confuse the four channels mentioned above

[@apkhbmbgamlkbh1531]

​@@door_productions4896 same

[@aturchomicz821]

Most Generic comment 2023:

[@joadic]

@@aturchomicz821 arent you a unique little star

[@vlim5601]

I wanna see a true reverse citybuilder where you systematically scrap buildings for raw materials, like stripping the walls of copper pipes and wire. Like Hardspace Shipbreaker but with buildings.

[@LimeyLassen]

I feel like the classic flash game Rebuild kinda fits that description. You build a walled city inside the city, out of scavenged materials, during the apocalypse.

[@l-DrFizz-l]

This is technically the fall of winterhome in frostpunk

[@foreignuser_]

Get hooked on drugs and you can play this game in real life.

[@_zurr]

Forever Skies might be something like that? It's like Subnautica, but in the sky of an abandoned planet, with decaying buildings and such.

[@landis9767]

there's also lumbearjack

[@nunyabiznes7446]

Terra Nil is a cool premise and a decent puzzle game, but I found its objectives actual wound up working at cross purposes to its message at many points as I used machines to evaporate large swathes of the landscape I had built up to permanently flip the Rain Switch, natures careful equilibrium be damned. I'm gonna copy/paste my comment from the Video Games Are Bad video on it: A funny wrinkle is that in a lot of cases if you want to fully complete the level - all 6 animal species, all environmental goals achieved, maybe some steam achievements as well - you kind of have to start wrecking shit. In many levels I found myself dumping a bunch of machines down to introduce massive, swinging atmospheric changes, leaving behind giant patches of torched forest or freeze-dried grasslands in a way that seems really antithetical to the message the game is trying to send. It also made the 'appreciate' button kind of hilarious. "Ah yes, pristine nature. Mostly on fire, criss-crossed by a lattice of petrified canals. So beautiful." It really exposed what to my mind is one of the major flaws of the game - it's not actually about balancing the environment. One you tick the 'rains start' box, the rains will keep going even if you dry everything out and freeze the entire county. Tundra needs dryness to grow, but once it's there you can inundate the place and it's not affected at all. Glaciers need -10 degrees to form but once they're there, they're there, no matter what you do to the temperature after. To much game, not enough terraforming. I wonder what the game would be like without this - I suspect that it might be a little more challenging, a bit more deliberate, if you had to think ahead instead of just reaching the point where you have infinite time and resources to yank all the levers in different directions with your crazy machines so all the boxes are ticked.

[@fal_pal_]

I hope they examine gameplay dynamics like this in future updates and introduce the careful balancing act you need to implement in more true to form terraforming simulation. I love the game as is, but think this would add an interesting alternate way to play

[@LimeyLassen]

What the game sorely needs is a "hard mode" that isn't just cost increases. Like needing to manage additional resources, making some decisions irreversible, or starting with elements that you need to protect.

[@solsystem1342]

Tldr: Terra nil is a game about making art not puzzle solving or city building. I think, at least for me. Part of the fun of terra Nil is how open ended it is after a good run. You could burn the world and leave but, you could also build a bunch of extra patchwork biomes, more animals, etc to sculpt the landscape as you see fit. It finally clicked for me on the final normal level where I had a ton of money left over and just decided to keep going, make more land, reclaim more buildings into lush forests, make some more lagoons, etc until I turned the map into this beautiful quilt of warm and cool colors. My favorite part about that moment was that my reward for doing well wasn't an A+ or a harder difficulty setting. It was making something beautiful of my own choice which I think clicks with the game really well. And I think that's why it's relaxed difficulty and goals are so good. Good play broadens your options.

[@nunyabiznes7446]

@@LimeyLassen Yep. That was the central idea of that Video Games Are Bad video I mentioned, he reached the same conclusion as you.

[@echo-4197]

I never had to wreck anything to complete my playthrough and only 1 achievement so far has had me do anything obtuse I think by boiling it down to a series of mechanics and 'it rains now' triggers, you've optimized so hard that you missed the point. If you play Terra Nil like Factorio or Satisfactory, it will let you, on account of it being very easy, but you reproduce something only marginally better than the wasteland that came before. Perhaps the game should enforce failure more strongly, but honestly it would be a bit on-the-nose, and they seem to want it to be an accessible and meditative experience I will agree that the gameplay is not about actually balancing the environment in a ecology simulation, crunchy stats way, and that could be a source of frustration for players, but I still found its "paint the landscape with trees" approach to be very satisfying.

[@kennysorel]

Shoutouts to Minecraft developer, Hatsune Miku

[@KodakYarr]

Lol

[@naithungoal609]

Great way for Adam to see if the viewer is paying attention lol

[@apkhbmbgamlkbh1531]

but the creator of minecarf is notch

[@Charlie.G]

​@@apkhbmbgamlkbh1531there is an ongoing joke that since notch is (or was idk) a terrible person minecraft was I initially created by miku instead

[@apkhbmbgamlkbh1531]

@@Charlie.G so we cant mention "bad" people now?

[@Anteglio]

You're making a very interesting point here, that I agree with and have actually been thinking about for quite some time. The first time that I tried the new Hitman trilogy, I didn't like it that much cause I assumed they were classic stealth games in the style of Splinter Cell, which means that I only engaged with the stealth system (which is not that great) and missed 90% of the content of the game, cause it seemed pointless to cause a mess when you can just as easily eliminate targets silently once and never replay the mission. The second time I tried the game, I finally understood that Hitman was not really about stealth but about finding creative ways to interact with the world and take down your targets, and that it's actually kind of an immersive sim. I have now more than 300 hours on the game and I consider it to be one of my favorite games of all time

[@Anteglio]

@@SimuLord I went to check the video and it turns out that I had already watched it xD I knew that I had watched a video about Hitman in that style a while ago but I didn't remember it was from this channel. But yeah, that video makes even more sense after watching this one. And yeah, Hitman is one of those games that has so much content and you can do every piece of it in so many different ways that you can probably put thousands of hours into it without getting bored

[@Avendesora]

I bought Terra Nil because I've been having an absolute blast playing the alpha of The Wandering Village. It's a very simple city builder (especially at the moment, since it's in pre-release) that forces a lot of creativity in your actual building by giving you a limited amount of space to do it. Terra Nil's small build space does still inspire that drive for optimization--which is a different goal in Terra Nil than in most games, but I still consider optimization just like I would consider placing furniture in the most convenient places in my home to be optimization--in me while being a very different experience, and I love that about it.

[@asdf30111]

A reverse city builder would be something like a game were you for example might raise a cult inside a prosperous city, and slowly though your influence and corruption bring the city to ruin and watch as the city begans to die, as you take over positions of leadership and on the surface attempt to stop the ruin when in reality your actions explorate it even futher.

[@nullvoid3545]

This could be fun

[@shaihulud3140]

Damn it! Now I have a strong desire to play a game that doesn't exist...

[@vukkulvar9769]

@williambraddell8052 French governement is a reverse democracy builder

[@jakobr_]

Reminds me of Plague Inc. in a way.

[@allgreatfictions]

That still sounds like a city builder with a different theme and not actually reverse mechanics.

[@Nerdy1729]

"Terra nil claims to be a reverse citybuilder. But when I compare it to other citybuilders, it seems like the complete reverse?? How odd!"

[@Ms.Whiskertoria]

The bit about suddenly realising how things in a game your playing fit into a genre you've played a bunch is exactly my experience with the first Horizon Zero Dawn game. The second I climbed one of the long necks and found out they were basically radio towers I completely lost interest in exploring much of the world. Its happened to me with a couple of Dark souls like games as well

[@Secret_Takodachi]

I'm glad you figured it out eventually. As someone who grew up (and out of) with the Assassin Creed franchise by the time Horizon trailers started appearing, it was VERY clear to anyone familiar with AC what to expect. Sadly, there are still people out there playing both franchises that actually think those series are still "innovators." The mainstream is about as brain dead as it gets. 😂

[@catStone92]

I agree that horizon falls prey to a lot of bad tropes of open world video games. However, both the combat and the story (and I guess the mild survival element) really did it for me.

[@AnotherDuck]

@@catStone92 Likewise. The open world is a bit lacking, although there are some things that are fun finding. But mostly you're spoon-fed missions and stuff. But the main draw of the game was always the robot dinosaurs. The combat is fun, and the story does have a relatively unique twist to it.

[@jhonthecat5061]

@@Secret_Takodachi Man AC 2, Brotherhood, and Black flag where the best. AC 2 innovated a Lot of the features, the stuff people are bored by now was cool back in AC 2. Brotherhood is literally just mechanically better AC 2 (not objectively but on a feature - engine level yes). Black flag innovated by far the most out of the games past 2 but to be honest still didn't change a whole lot; being a pirate with great ship driving and a lot of the Caribbean fit with the AC formula.

[@foreignuser_]

@@jhonthecat5061 Other than tacking on the pirate stuff, how did Black Flag innovate, exactly?

[@Mhopson968]

I think Tunic is a game that plays on prior experience incredibly well. I was comfortable going in from zelda and souls experience but by the end of the game it had taken on an entirely unique identity. Highly recommend 😂

[@AnotherDuck]

Tunic is fun and more of an anti-anti game. Or a game game. It's a game to find out how the game works, and it plays entirely on expectations, hints, and foreshadowing.

[@sashabagdasarow497]

I didn't like Tunic, it seemed boring :\

[@AnotherDuck]

@@sashabagdasarow497 Seemed in what way? I mean, it's not for everyone. It's for people who like figuring things out themselves, with combat that's a bit of a cross between 2D Zelda and Dark Souls.

[@arandomcommenter412]

@@sashabagdasarow497 death.

[@sashabagdasarow497]

​@@AnotherDuck In a way that I didn't find it fun brother. I found the gameplay boring in a way that you don't do much and not much is happening. I mean, fights weren't that interesting too! For context, I'm a life-long gamer (mostly PC) and I'm for sure a lover for figuring stuff myself, but that wasn't the problem with Tunic for me. For me it was the lack of anything actually happening. You may say too slow tempo. And Dark Souls is my most favourite series, I also never understood all the "builds" that people are doing etc. I just played my way, used the armor I liked and so on. I've never seen points for guidance, I can figure it out myself. Like, what am I supposed to like in Tunic? Combat system? It's pretty simple, not impactful... I did not find it complex or interesting while playing it (I enjoy good combat systems a lot, Sifu, DS, Nioh). I guess Tunic might've worked for me if it came out 10 years ago. But now it's just straight boring. I liked Zelda, haven't played the old ones, but the new one was top notch. I do like exploring, but I like exploring an interesting world, not a plain world of low-poly stuff. I did not find the design in Tunic. My eyes aren't caught by anything. If it was an art-picture I'd just scroll.

[@YayaFeiLong]

7:11 To be fair to Scorn, the "survival horror" thing only lasts for a single area, the Crater. Granted given the short length of the game "a single area" is still like a good 30% of it, but I do think it's a bit unfair to reduce the whole thing down to merely "yet another survival horror game" just because of that

[@ChaosCorpse4tube]

That background experience, rather, a lack thereof, explains a lot about how The Stanley Parable left my folks dumbfounded about the point when I tried to present it to them. Their skill level within games stands on the, look down at the controller to find the buttons stage, so it fits I suppose.

[@smolbrendan5978]

Funnily enough, the ending at 19:44 didn't work on me as this is the first video of yours I have watched. Good video, by the way!

[@Billmaster115]

The idea of turning a barren city into a garden of Eden actually sounds amazing, it's the same reason I got into universe sandbox, I just loved terraforming planets with different colours of water, atmosphere and plant life. A more complex version of this terraforming simulator would be a hit for me.

[@xRaalx]

On the topic of new gamers not having experience, my mom only got into video games outside of puzzle games recently, and watching her go from struggling with controls for monster hunter rise to overcoming some of the biggest walls that game has to offer that, while easier than previous entries by MY reckoning, is entirely new to her has been....honestly, a truly pleasurable experience.

[@underdog353777]

It's interesting that you use footage of Factorio and Satisfactory during your discussion about the city builder genre as I wouldn't consider this city builders at all - but I can kind of see the overlap in retrospect

[@LimeyLassen]

True, they're incremental games.

[@ChaosTherum]

@@LimeyLassen I would hardly call them incremental games, that would be like calling Fallout 3 a CRPG like sure it took some inspirations from the CRPG genre but it definitely isn't in that genre anymore.

[@paipepaipe9565]

Yeah i would classify them as Automation games, as they are now a genre on itself imo

[@paxmorgana]

Weird that you casually unpersoned Notch like that but okay.

[@videozoom12]

I think this is why tabletop games are so important. It's a heavy narrative experience that allows YOUR creative juices to flow and can give birth to new ideas that we see today. A good DM is invaluable to the gaming community.

[@biblicallyaccuratecockroach]

I've been dealing with my PC crashing lately (I plan to reinstall it to fix it as soon as I'm done with a few things), so that fakeout freeze actually raised my blood pressure. Hit a bit too close to home but well played. Personal experiences do help make unforgettable moments 🤪

[@mjhenkel1984]

omg i about had a heart attack.

[@sashabagdasarow497]

lol

[@raerohan4241]

I'd already been expecting it once he started bringing the topic up. I'm too used to this kind of foreshadowing for it to be effective on me anymore. But it was still fun to imagine how B:AA players might have reacted on their first playthrough when they weren't expecting that to happen 😂😂

[@user-zn5zr2ed3x]

man i hear you, that sound looping felt like cold shower

[@BlueTemplar15]

Now I understand the meaning of «trigger warning» ! xD

[@timpize8733]

Very good points. I'd just add one solution to the list : creating a completely new genre. Devs tend to mix different genres when they're trying to offer something unexpected, but creating a new type of experience is not impossible by any means. Look at Papers, Please for instance, clearly its gameplay doesn't fit in any box. Of course coming up with such an idea requires a rare amount of both imagination and luck, but among indie games we've seen it happen, and it's always worth the trouble. I think there's a lot we've yet to see.

[@sashabagdasarow497]

You may say Papers, Please is a puzzle genre, won't you? Narrative, Puzzle. Easy as that. Of course it's not traditional puzzle game, but that's why we have genres, they are very broad. The problem with Indie games that "invent a new genre" is that they seem to only have that one mechanic it's praised for. Papers, Please is a great game! But it only has that one single mechanic to offer.

[@timpize8733]

@@sashabagdasarow497 Not really. There's no puzzle to solve. I'd say it's closer to adventure games like murder mystery games, where you need to choose who did it at the end. Except that you don't need to find clues, but simply verify info, and failure is allowed if not encouraged. Obviously we can always find similarities to other games but it's still a completely unique concept. And I disagree that it's a one-trick pony. The gameplay is completely tied to its setting, with unexpected dialogues and events, even new gameplay elements that show up after some levels. And there are multiple endings based on different ways of playing. It's a pretty deep game overall that fully explores its concept in my opinion.

[@joaolucaslages7792]

It's an RPG. You are playing the role of the main character and taking decisions in his place.

[@timpize8733]

@@joaolucaslages7792 It's absolutely not an RPG. 😆 There is no experience points and leveling system, nor combats, or anything found in an RPG except for the dialogues. If you really want to place it into a genre, it's a simulation game. But then it's the only simulation game of its kind, which still proves the point.

[@crazydragy4233]

@@timpize8733 SHouldn't a roleplaying game be defined by role playing and not those systems tho?

[@weylinstoeppelmann9858]

I thought it would be interesting to see a game where one player tries to enhance the influence of nature, while the other tries to develop and conquer it in a kind of asymmetric RTS

[@furryfan1416]

i recently played a small game with shooter elements. every fiber of my being wanted to shoot the red boxes to make em blow up, yet i knew from testing that they did not, they were just red boxes and honestly fit the surroundings. its was... interesting

[@claiminglight]

11:00 I think it's worth pointing out that the line between 'subversion' and 'cheating' is razor thin. Players don't want to play with things that break the rules they've agreed to. Subversion only works if you can artfully defy expectation WHILE following the unspoken contract you've made with the player.

[@juanvaldivia8001]

Genre subversion is a really interesting topic, amazing video! Honestly besides "Anti-" games I like it more when traditional games subvert your expectations of genre tropes like "Yeah what's that? you found a chest in a secret room of the dungeon because you backtracked and explored? sure, it's your reward for your exploration endeavors... would be a shame it's actually a trap and there's a secret boss after you open the chest... haha jk... unless"

[@franconunez925]

It's not the same I'm aware, but when I first played dark souls and found a secret room, and then hitted the chest in the secret room only to find an ENTIRE AREA BEHIND IT! I just couldn't stop laughing at that one.

[@ukranian_deadbeat]

A secret boss is a fine reward in my eyes!

[@sashabagdasarow497]

Picking up the cup in DS3. I didn't expect it to be a reward, but I really didn't know what to expect either.

[@Binzob]

wow a mimic very expectation subverting and not been done a hundred times before

[@juanvaldivia8001]

@@Binzob not a mimic, a boss

[@Silentstrike46_]

The "PC crash" at 11:50 got me. I've spent all week fixing my PC after having many issues, and JUST got it working. I know the scene from the Batman game, I should have known that you would do it too, but hearing that crashing sound just made my heart sink. Well played! Also, awesome video!

[@DannyEastes]

God yeah I've been having blue screen issues recently and it got me good too. The timing on the stuttering was spot on

[@lettersnstuff]

I got like halfway through the tutorial of Terra Nil when it clicked for me that it’s not a city builder, it’s an open ended puzzle game, and viewed like that, it’s actually a lot of fun

[@ReinOfCats]

A few years back when building a new tutorial for a particular MOBA we ran into an issue within labs among potential new players. A particular feature, showing a "get back!" ring around an objective when it would target you, worked well for explaining the mechanic for most players - including those with very little gaming background - but worked *terribly* for players who had almost exclusively multiplayer FPS backgrounds. Among this group of players, they would almost all read the warning as a "the objective is in danger" instead of a signal to get back. This seemed to be based on the knowledge about how capture points worked in some FPS games. Unfortunately, the feature worked too well for all the other players and we couldn't find a solution that was accommodating to the FPS crowd. So it shipped like that. Very much relatedly (and at the same studio and on the same game) the tutorial had been rebuilt a few times over the years. Each time because the prior tutorials slowly became less and less effective as the incoming audience - and their prior game knowledge - changed. The first tutorial got a large jump start from RTS genres, but as fewer players had ever played an RTS started to show up, that became far less effective in terms of other tutorials. And even, eventually, investigation into other shifting control schemes. It's critical for service based games to update their onboarding as players - and their foundational experiences - change over time. But this is sadly often all too neglected.

[@salty_3k506]

idk if it counts as an anti-game but superliminal really messes with your head. it works differently from any other game even though i don't think it subverts a genre directly. it subverts your understanding of perspective and vision, which is more fundamental than a game genre.

[@sashabagdasarow497]

I guess it may count as such! Like, anti-puzzle game that is actually a puzzle game but the one that defies the norms of the genre.

[@ponivi]

@@sashabagdasarow497 no, it’s a spatial illusion puzzle game, not an anti-puzzle game.

[@julianbello8376]

It's just a puzzle game, like Portal

[@vikoy07]

Its still a puzzle game. Just using perspective as a puzzle element, which is a pretty novel idea.

[@gargean1671]

Not sure you've played that much in Oxygen Not Included tbh) Real sustainability IS possible there, more of it - it is kinda the goal. You can't live off exhaustable resources. You need to switch to renewable ones if you want to expand and survive for hundreds of cycles.

[@candy-ass4915]

This was a point I didn't like in the video, yes. Namedropping ONI only to say you have to expand since it's nearly impossible to be sustainable. Food can be perfectly sustainable with wild planting, water is sustainable with geysers, and can be purified sustainably by evaporating it or using sustainable filtration mediums, and oxygen is sustainably created from water.

[@yanlucasdf]

Terra nil look more like a puzzle box (like the tabletop ones) it's a sandbox ich where you are Givin all the pieces to assemble the picture but not the instructions, so you start with the conners(scrubbers and irrigators) connect the conners(biomes and animals) and go towards the middle till you finish with it

[@LizardOfOz]

The more games I played and the more movies I watched, the more "suspension of disbelief" turned into an "agreement of suspension of disbelief" - it's hard to not see the mechanics at play, but now you can also appreciate the beauty of said mechanics and the underlying design.

[@Americanbadashh]

You might be headed down the road of media analysis. Where the love of the mechanics and underlying design itself becomes the motivation and belief is no longer suspended but the experience is still enjoyed immensely.

[@mathieuqenan4218]

I was just looking for a small, one plate Terra Nil Review to go, stumbled upon this video and got a three-course-meal and then some. Great video, did subscribe!

[@Dragonhannes]

It's impressing to see your video going from showing Terra Nil to explaining why so many consider the "Everything was better years ago" in the Media world. And I can totally agree as I noted this myself some years ago and started to discover games way outside of my normal preferences. One of them was actually Frostpunk and this is a pure Masterpiece to me. Let's discover your other videos ;)

[@sheepcouldtalk]

Love that you have a clip of Wandersong in there, it’s such a fantastic little gem

[@Americanbadashh]

I see things coming in games not because I've played a ton of them, but because I looked up guides and tips and tricks on mechanics before I even bought the game most of the time. For me this makes the sense of wonder in games not come from know what a game can do, but instead learning what a game cannot do; and pushing what can be done beyond what most people think is impossible, and sometimes a game still subverts my expectations mechanically due to how systems interact not lining up the way I expected (and often times not how the developers intended either)

[@thiagovieira800]

This video spoke close to home for me. Not only I had the same urge to replay my favorite citybuilders after playing Terra Nil, but you made me realize the exact reason why I've been feeling bored about my favorite media lately, describing it in terms I never thought before. Nailed it!

[@rickwoods5274]

“Terra Nil isn’t a reverse city builder because it isn’t a city builder” seems like a nonsense conclusion to me? Like, of course it’s not a city builder. It’s a reverse city builder. You are reversing the process of building a city, which is not the same as the process of building a city.

[@GlutesEnjoyer]

Crazy how this comes out as soon as terra nil goes on sale

[@AnotherDuck]

Editing is top miku as usual. I don't think either "reverse" or "anti" fits Terra Nil. Mechanically, it's a puzzle, or more accurately a problem solving game. It's sort of like how scenarios work in some city builders, where you have a limited time and/or money to solve a particular problem. It's entirely within that expectation, with the only difference is that it's skinned with nature instead of city buildings. Many of the other "anti" games fit within normal contexts as well. Just a standard games with some deviations, like Darkest Dungeon. It's a roguelike dungeon crawler with expendable characters and an insanity mechanic. Not too groundbreaking. I think deliberately hard-controlled or obtuse games fit the "anti" label more, like QWOP. Deliberately frustrating like Souls games or Getting Over It are just that - games that intend to challenge patience as well as skill, but otherwise normal games. The latter more about skill and the former more about pattern recognition. You don't have to play something that challenges the way you think about a certain genre to appreciate what you appreciate about it. You just have to actually think about it. Also, morality in video games isn't anything new. Also also, mimics are my favourite enemies overall in gaming. From DnD to Trials of Mana to Final Fantasy.

[@vdub6343]

Agreed! Also, part of the commentary in the video is on Terra Nil not being efficiency oriented, but you’re absolutely still aiming for efficiency, it’s just pure resource efficiency as opposed to efficiency in service of productivity (The example that came to me was that of a tower defense game vs a factorio factory)

[@vdub6343]

*I’ve only played the original game jam(?) version from back when there were no public plans to expand the game as far as I’m aware. Someone else in the comments was saying it’s more of an art making game, which makes more sense. It’s only a puzzle game mechanically, not in spirit ideally. Again, ideally, no idea how well it pulls that off.

[@AnotherDuck]

@@vdub6343 Whether it's a puzzle or art game depends in my opinion on the difficulty. If it's about the art, it should be less difficult, since that allows for less strict optimisation, which means more room to express yourself.

[@marzipancutter8144]

The thing is, the term "Anti-" is always used in relation to previous experiences. Of course when once unconventional mechanics become commonplace you would stop seeing a game as subversive, but that only works in hindsight. You can't objectively say something did or did not recontextualize the genre from todays context that already has the change incorporated. The only way you can really judge the Anti-ness of a game is by having played it at the time of release and remembering whether or not it was defying the highly subjective expectations that were formed by your individual experiences at the time. And in that, you can only really speak for yourself.

[@AnotherDuck]

@@marzipancutter8144 Yeah, I only judge them by what I thought of them at the time (like at the jam release date for TN), since I can't judge by anyone else's opinion. I'm old enough to have more experience than most, though, so I've seen enough progress in the gaming field to not consider new development as equally groundbreaking as someone newer to the area.

[@Robot_Face]

"This game does a lot of things opposite from how a city builder would, therefore it's not a reverse city builder" Why do you expect a REVERSE city builder to play at all like a city builder? Reverse tower defenses aren't about towers or defense, that's what the word "reverse" means

[@ratchetandchank8648]

The highlight of scorn isn't its similarities to the survival horror genre. The art and story makes it worth a play through without a doubt. plus you get a yummy smoothie near the end

[@cheerpoasting]

“It’s not a reverse city builder, it’s actually a reverse city builder instead”

[@hospod163]

I always thought of it simply as a puzzle game it's not a city builder at all since it doesn't have any interlocking mechanics that would make the game complex enough for it to be called a city builder imo

[@interlamer7480]

2:35 IS THAT LOSS?

[@MidNightMagician]

My guy just pulled some name out of his ass for minecraft's developer like bruh

[@GremlinOfYore]

I had this video randomly recommended to me and I'm so pleased that I checked this video out! Your thoughts are excellently laid out and the care and time put into this video is obvious. Definitely subscribing!

[@kill_repeat8491]

Cant tell you how grateful I am for the list of games shown in the video. Incredible analysis of something that many of us wouldnt even consider.

[@dvgen]

I'm never going to give this channel up. It never lets me down.

[@rafaelcastor2089]

A reverse city builder is just hoping on your friend's Minecraft/Terraria server and blowing up everything they've built

[@Sparten7F4]

'It's not a reverse city builder- It's an opposite city builder. Like building a city except the other way. But not reverse, though, for... Reasons.' XD

[@kaysidegamer5996]

Did not expect to see Bowser’s Inside Story here, but always pleasantly surprised. One of my all-time favorite videogames, and an amazing Mario game

[@finalnoobboss3606]

pretty sure thats superstar saga

[@insu_na]

I love that you squeezed a Duty Calls clip in there

[@riolufistofmight]

That was a 22 minute video on how OP doesn't like "reverse" and suggests "anti" instead. Those words are synonyms for a reason.

[@noisecrime]

Except that 'Anti' is possibly worse, since it has negative connotations, so is unlikely to be favoured by a good marketing department, hence use of 'reverse'.

[@woutervanhoof3862]

Damn, the editing was top notch, really nice subtle links between what Adam was saying and the visuals!

[@zanderwinters4255]

12:00 doesn't really work on mobile devices since they don't typically bluescreen to windows after a glitch

Back when I played the demo, which was also billed as a reverse city builder, I only played for a few minute before realizing that it has basically nothing to do with city building. It's just a pretty puzzle game that you could mistake for at city builder at first glance. It was quite enjoyable anyway 🙂

[@emctwoo]

Great video as always, I really liked your point about how subverting expectations both makes entertaining games and is crucial for making media that effectively critiques/questions our assumptions/beliefs. On the note of questioning assumptions, I would suggest that it is only our current (extractive) mode of human endeavor that is incompatible with nature, and there are still people living/striving to live in mutually beneficial relationships with land. Leanne Betasamosake Simpson's "As We Have Always Done" and Robin Wall Kimmerer's "Braiding Sweetgrass" are both great books if you're curious.

[@francois-xaviertoledo8198]

Yes. That humans act as a keystone specie in many biomes is one of the things this game misses.

[@charsquatch600]

Im really loving terra nil, in spite of all of my expirience with city builders, factorio, tycoon games, and of course the desert storm sequels. Personally i think terra nil's genius outshines things like city skylines and factorio by exchanging stratigical skill with satisfaction. Its satisfying watching bioms pop up, find animals, bring rain and most of all, remember the wasteland that you turned into a thriving ecosystem.

[@Notllamalord]

Rimworld kind of did that for me. Most colony sims have you optimizing and expanding against nature or with some limitation, like being on a spaceship or in an asteroid. In rimworld it’s more realistic, where you can cut down trees and burn coal without immediately killing everyone, it feels good playing a colony sim with such an open world

[@kiewass]

2:50 Really? PUBG WASN'T first. A mod for Arma 2 named Dayz: Battle Royale made by PlayerUnknown was the original. It was developed in 2012/13 - that it is five years before PUBG. Also PUBG isn't dead. It's far from it. It has 200K - 300K players at any time. Look at steam charts to confirm.

[@ChaoticLifemaker]

While I'm not sure if Outer wilds is an Anti game, I've recently seen a youtuber make a set of 2 videos on that game with different perspectives in each. In the first he expressed a dislike for the game and confusion on why people praise it so much, for him to come around in the second one after a comment induced perspective shift. Turns out he was expecting a progression system, more clear indications of what to do and upgrades to his kit, all things that are rather common in triple a games. He expressed a newfound appreciation of the game and lamented the mindset he went into the game with. Then he played Echoes of the eye (watched him play it) and with this new perspective managed to get an amazing experience out of it. Still had a bit of a speedrunners mindset but still.

[@ΓιωργοςΠεχλιβανιδης-ξ7ε]

for a really unique city builder you should try "against the storm" it manages to merge city building and rougelite elements

[@Thomas_Lo]

Terra Nil is a puzzler, a fantastic looking, extremely zenlike puzzler

[@zacharywong483]

Absolutely lovely script, as always, Adam! And I loved the background images at around 9:13!

[@onlysmiles4949]

The homogenization bit was a lot of my feeling going from Superliminal to Manifold Garden to Antichamber to Maquette Tried The Stanley Parable afterwards, and it became one of my favorite games of all time

[@sashabagdasarow497]

Maquette was boring though. Except the parts where you actually interact with the stuff

[@1un4cy]

A reverse city builder sounds like a game where you're destroying cities. Terra Nil, you're still building up from nothing, exactly what a regular city-builder does.

[@AnotherDuck]

Cities of plants and animals rather than of buildings and people.

[@purge2202]

In this video: Adam Millard fails to understand what Reverse means, and instead expects the same thing. Is confused upon receiving the reverse thing.

[@tabletbrothers3477]

The editing here is fantastic!

[@DanCreaMundos]

This gave me a really interesting idea for a concept game that actually isn't a city builder. I'll have to do some research

[@blessedandbiwithahintofmagic]

This is such a brilliant video. I'll consider this so much more now. Thank you soooo, sooo much

[@astrokits]

The use of "reverse" instead of "anti" is deliberate. The marketing team probably wants to convey the sense that Terranil is the 'aftermath' of your favorite play of factorio or Sims City or Banished. It doesn't want to go against the concept of progress of civilization, it just wants to convey a sense of cleaning up after ourselves when we don't need to destroy nature anymore. The phrase "anti-city builder" conveys that it is against the concept of city building. I really think "reverse city builder" in essence is the best terminology they could have used.

[@henryeccleston7381]

It should be noted that human endeavour isn’t actually in necessary opposition with nature: we are an animal that exists within our ecosystems, and when we keep within our niches, and strive to work WITH the environment, rather than against it. This relationship was central to medieval European agricultural practices, Native American traditional practices, and most other traditional land management structures. Even look at the agrarian city: it is a concentrated collection of humans and workshops that keeps them off the fields and woodlands, reduces travel through those fields and woodlands, and makes resource collection and management simpler, but always and necessarily surrounded by carefully managed woodlands (which reduced fire problems with seasonal burns and managed undergrowth, as well as keeping wildlife populations healthy) and diverse fields (producing varied and healthy environments for the wildlife there and resistance to disease in the crops) all managed carefully to ensure healthy soil, healthy wildlife, and healthy plant life. This working with the environment ensured more than adequate resources to keep the environment alive and thriving for millennia, and to support stable cities and exports off the excess produced. The relationship only really went bad when people stopped working WITH and started just taking FROM.

[@hugmonger]

I really like Adam cuz they recontextualize and articulate my thoughts really well.

[@christianrk5747]

you say the template for the battle royale genre was established by PUBG, except PUBG took inspiration from DayZ which came out 4 years earlier

[@jonasashton]

Once again you've explained things in a way I needed to hear! Games aren't getting worse, I'm just getting tired of reused tropes! Thank you for your brilliant videos ❤️

[@alyssinclair8598]

This made me realise why I love certain RTS's a lot. Tooth and tail/ kingdom both subvert a lot about rts and defo made me love the genre more

[@Kanelel]

17:31 I kind of disagree with this point. Fighting climate change does require us to use that optimizing instinct. We need to densify cities and it make it as easy as possible to travel in an efficient way in order to cut down on carbon emissions from cars. I'm nitpicking though, good video.

[@AnotherDuck]

NJB, Strong Towns, RMTransit, and a bunch of other channels you'll find linked from those talk a lot about that topic.

[@SewerMatt]

If you do want a game that feels like Terra Nil but with more of the strategy of a city builder I’d definitely recommend checking out Blockhood, it’s all about creating sustainable ecosystems too but there’s a lot more focus on managing and balancing all the different resources and creating a self-sustaining system, it’s a good cross between the Terra Nil style and a more traditional city builder I think

[@owenneilb]

"It's not a reverse city builder because it's not a city builder. It's a [insert synonym for reverse city builder] which I will now define as exactly what I would describe as reverse city builder." This entire premise is centered around your arbitrary definition of "reverse" vs "anti" which... yeah.

[@medblikegrave]

really brilliantly written script!! casual, tongue-in-cheek but not excessively, with clever lines. well done :)

[@Skaatje]

*"There are only so many roundabouts you can build before you start going round in circles"* I see what you did there... 😉

[@Natheist]

This video gave me a cool idea for a game where you're actually the boss monster fighting the heroes and the story goes into how monster killing is actually hurting the planets echo system or something like that. The game play would have you playing in the same way a boss would with deploying different attack patterns that the heroes then try to figure out and exploit. I'm not a developer but if an indie developer reads this and think it's a cool idea feel free to steal it haha. Also if a game like this already exists feel free to recommend it to me!

[@faiyazaziz3672]

This video seems to take a lot of inspiration from video games are bad’s video. Nice to hear both your thoughts on Terra Nil. ❤

[@manboy4720]

godzilla was known to be very 'reverse city-building'.

[@totally_not_a_troll]

Sorry man, I ditched like ... a sixth in? No, you're just wrong. It's not people aping a design that works. It's designs that work. Thing A doesn't work because game A made it popular. Game A got popular because it accidentally did something genious. Or intentionally. Dota is not accidentally. It was, and I know, I was there, years of trial and error. Organic evolution. What wroked worked, what didn't got tossed out. The asymmetrical map wasn't "diesigned" at first. It was just. I have a square. I make three lanes. Math says that middle is shorter. Then I placed some turrets a bit iffy. Then I noticed "AHHHH, that iffy placement means this is a harder lane for one team. I can do stuff with this info!" And then forest paths and so on and so forth. Then, sure. People ape dota. But it's because the design is purely brilliant. Not because it's popular. So yeah, trash vidoe, I ain't watching further. Bye.

[@lanagievski1540]

The chests in Maximo were the first use of the “loot that isn’t actually loot and will attack you” I encountered as a kid.

[@deathdiamond15]

from when I first saw Terra Nil announced months ago, I thought it was a puzzle game where instead of a timer you have a resource amount. Its kinda like a clock that ticks down and up at the rate that YOU play. That's what got me interested.

[@zeromailss]

This is why I appreciate Devolver as a dev team, yes they probably become the thing that they are making fun of given enough time but right now I still like their Indie games that are short but fun and enjoyable

[@boklasarmarkus]

The distinction between reverse and anti seems a bit arbitrary, yes it's the opposite of a city builder. That's what reverse means.

[@nerdywolverine8640]

^^

[@AnotherDuck]

But Terra Nil isn't. You just build a city of plants and animals instead of buildings and people.

[@Vexcenot]

2:23 i see what ya did there

[@g4md0r32]

Very well put video. I think that the more we learn about games, it does detract from the enjoyment, but only if you play the same games the same way and don't try new stuff. Most people need variety in their lives even if some professional esports gamers can play the same game 10 hours a day for years. So yeah if you feel bored playing some games, try something different!

[@FlatThumb]

Great analysis on the similarities and differences of BR and extraction shooters. Temp loot vs permanent set in a familiar framework.

[@bihazards]

Not gonna lie to you. The entire premise of this video seems like it's just semantics.

[@colebehnke7767]

Yeah, Terra Nil isn’t a good game, and anyone who tells you so is making excuses.