terra nil is a game without friction

[@Chariot_Rider]

Mini Metro is another incredibly simple game that nonetheless creates tension and depth. All you do is draw lines from station to station, but you only have so many resources. You can only cross water so many times, and you can only have so many trains. Figuring out how to manage your stations with you limited capacity is compelling, and it really only has one verb. It might be worth checking out if you want another compelling minimalist game

[@Max_JustMax]

mini metro is not cozy it's intense you are mixing up genres of games

[@ZNotFound]

@@Max_JustMax Yeah. Mini Metro is intense. Sure it starts off easy, but the farther you go the more you have to micro manage. Their other game Mini Motorways is similar, but gets even more complex the farther you go.

[@koholos]

Using minimalism to bring decisions to the forefront is actually something that Japanese board game designers, as a movement, have been really big on in the past 5 or 6 years, and it’s been really fascinating to watch - dialing down the number of pieces, or turns, or whatever. In fact, the more I think about his definition of ‘friction’ I think Go is the perfect example. Go only allows you to do 1 thing each turn - place a stone. And yet, the proper placement of each stone is vitally important. It is entirely possible to realize that a bad play you made 80 turns ago lost you the game, but you weren’t able to see it yet. Granted Terra Nil (or Mini Metro) don’t have 4000 years of development, so it’s a bit of an unfair bar to hold any game up to. But I am enjoying seeing game designers trying to find new ways to maximize depth without just falling back on adding ‘complexity’ or ‘clutter’.

[@Attaxalotl]

Mini Metro is the Dark Souls of that type of game

[@Stevedawhoop]

terra nil is a colouring book and i like to keep it that way

[@BoulderWraith]

An easy way terra-nil could have been more interesting to play is by having the game hint at what wildlife likes to go where while you're rebuilding the ecosystem. That way you can genuinely care about where you place your structures, so you can set up the ecosystem to have a perfect wildlife documentation section, instead of just placing them down willy-nilly and suddenly not being able to document all the wildlife because you didnt put a forest next to a dessert.

[@solsystem1342]

That would be too much information for the players at once. The game already struggles with players skipping over/not understanding important information. They can come back/continue terraforming for perfection if they want to (if you've optimized you should be able to afford perfection on your first playthough) if not you can just play again with the foreknowledge the game gives you. Like, having the maximum amount of information right off the bat is not the way developers optimize for the best game experience.

[@InsufficientGravitas]

Honestly what i think might make it more interesting is making two changes, 1:that every thing influences stuff like the temperature, humidity, etc and 2: that the big ecosystem wide changes are more adversarial, you hae to keep the enviroment at the right temperature or humidity and small mistakes like raising the temperature a little too much can suddenly raise the humidity if you have too much water are so its got more depth.

[@Thisone95]

Since you can still modify biomes during the salvaging stage this has only been a problem for me in the first stage.

[@SamuelSandeen]

... it's not surfaced but that information is in the book from the start.

[@SariusxX]

dessert next to a forest, what a nice picnic :D

[@equivocator7727]

I honestly think there's a place for games like this, where there's basically no stakes and failure is almost impossible. The reward is the beauty of the world you're restoring, not necessarily the challenge of how you got there. I'll grant you that your criticisms do make sense, and Terra Nil could have been a very different game, and maybe that would have made it better overall. There's something I've learned about being critical somewhat recently, and that's that you can easily ruin a fun experience by choosing not to meet it where it is. It's a matter of perspective and mindset whether a game like Terra Nil is a worthwhile experience.

[@utryping]

Great comment

[@hexlart8481]

Idk, while I agree in principle I think Terra Nil has missed a large opportunity that wouldn't really change the core experience. Even on the hardest difficulty in the game you coast through with little resistance, I don't think it would fundamentally change the game if there was something on higher difficulties to slow you down. Some form of friction. The reward is still the beauty, the criticism is just that the beauty feels unearned even on the hardest difficulty. Sure some people want to free play and don't really want to earn it in that way. And I'm not advocating for it turning into a really punishing puzzle game. I just don't think it would really take anything away from those people to add some challenge or friction to higher difficulties.

[@danieldkland]

I think that type of beautification game has great potential, but without having actually played the game myself, it seems like it's less you reconstructing nature and more you just using the paint bucket tool to fill out the world. If it doesn't have the opposing force like Into the Breach, it should have the creativity aspect down, which I don't think it really manages. In my opinion it would be a much better game if it included elements from Eco, Ecosystem Simulator or even Minecraft. If you keep it third person/top down, make the game react to everything you do like Powder Game, i.e. the paint canvas doesn't just get a paint bucket, the pixels respond to every brushstroke meaning the gameplay comes from balancing nature sometimes working against your vision. Otherwise make it first person or at least more zoomed in, so you can go in and plant those seeds yourself, manipulate the terrain for better water retention or wetlands, etc. Basically see Mossy Earth (KZbin channel) and turn what they do into a game, just more approachable and experimental in nature.

[@Paul_Bedford]

yes. but for $25 I will go somewhere else

[@h.f6364]

@@Paul_Bedford feel free to do exactly that, then

[@Zandofle]

I legitimately thought this was going to be about how there’s no literal friction and everything just slides around…

[@MudakTheMultiplier]

Nah, that's portal 2 with the item save glitch active.

[@mariocamspam72]

@@MudakTheMultiplier So obscure, lol

[@MudakTheMultiplier]

@@mariocamspam72 I'm glad someone got it lol.

[@alizardguy]

same

[@gljames24]

Yeah, I thought this was going to be about ice physics.

[@Shotgundude1]

I like terra nil for how easy it is. It’s sometimes good just to sit down with some snacks and a drink, and play a game you know you can win, just to look in awe at the beauty of the game. Another example of this is the early levels in the campaign of Jurassic world: Evolution or sandbox mode in cities: Skylines

[@Shotgundude1]

@@angryburnttoast You may believe Terra Nil is boring, and it probably is for you. But other people prefer different styles, so a game you find boring can be very interesting to others

[@rRekko]

Couldn't be more accurate. Terra nil is gorgeous, relaxing, has a very nice sound design and it being easy let's your mind run wild with all the ideas for different environments you decide to build. People who are too focused on objectives will find it hard to like this game, you know, like euro truck being a game where you're just following objectives and driving around. Some days you just want to unwind and play a story game or a chill game like this one, or both, like Val-ha11-a where you just read story and chill to the music and aesthetic.

[@QuestingRefuge]

You're the nicest of haters. Got me curious to check out both games for comparison

[@San-lh8us]

both? i believe he talked about 3 games mainly, terra nil, the eurotruck one, and slipways

[@inelnel]

Constructive criticism is a dying breed

[@stegosandrosos1291]

I don't underatand why he choosed "videogames are bad" as the name of the channel lol

[@Ludvagn]

As some others have already said here in the comments before me, I feel that Terra Nil is not really supposed to be challenging or require difficult decisions. It just feels like it's more focused on the journey from a wasteland to a flourishing ecosystem rather than being a challenging or actively engaging game (especially not for players experienced in this type of game). This I think is especially clear with the fact that after completing a map you have the option to Appreciate it. To just sit there and look at all the life that you've introduced to the landscape. Now I won't say that it's the best game ever or that it would be a worse game if it had more depth or was more challenging. But what I am saying is that then it wouldn't be the kind of game where you can just sit down and relax as you play it. It wouldn't be as meditative. It wouldn't be as calming. It wouldn't be the kind of game that I could genuinely see my mom enjoy playing. If you want to judge it as a puzzle game or a reverse city builder, then I agree, it's not very good. But if you look at it more as an experience, as something to let happen, to relax with, then it's great.

[@Max_JustMax]

that's what im saying why do you have to make every game as much game as possible. why can't i just turn off my brain and watch life unfold by my simple building placing. I'll give you the difficulties they don't add that much and i think the game would be better if they actually made the game more like a puzzle but it is what it is.

[@Andza84]

I haven't played Terra Nil, but after watching this video I have a feeling that this is misinterpretation of the creative intent of game's authors. This is a feelgood or wholesome genre game where the aim is not to provide challenge, but rather a relaxing experience while turning the wasteland into a green untouched heaven. Therefore more friction and challenges would further it from this goal. The comparison with Slipways is interesting. Slipways is definitely a game with little complexity, but good depth. However it is very far from relaxing game. I would call it quite stressful, as you are puzzling over the optimal linking and with horror looking at the negative happiness in your galaxy. Comparisons with Dorfromantik, Slime Rancher, Unpacking might be more apt.

[@sacb0y]

I think even a feel good game needs friction somewhere. If it's not in gameplay maybe it's personalization or personality. Cities skylines isn't generally a hard and stressful game but as things expand the friction comes from not paying attention to slowly building issues. Most of the problems in cities skylines come from wanting to build things your way. You go through the motions and do what you want to do, and then oh there's a problem, better fix that. Other feel good games do it with character interaction, maybe there's an NPC you want to make happy or something. But maybe some other story element out of your control makes your efforts more difficult so you have to go a bit grander. Desire and purpose and things running counter to that even in a feelgood type game is crucial. You don't feel good for doing nothing. Wholesome isn't that special without context to give it meaning.

[@rip3650]

@@sacb0yThose final statements really summarized the video as a whole. You can’t be a feel good experience if doing nothing gives the same outcome. There needs to be a motive or goal in these types of games because without it it just feels monotonous and a waste of time. By playing a game you go in with an expectation of difficulty even if it’s to relax. You play to have something to do that takes enough energy to be more than doing nothing. If I wanted to do nothing but relax I would sit outside and enjoy nature.

[@iqbalindaryono8984]

@@rip3650 The friction comes from the entire day the people played it spent at work. The last thing you want after a 8 to 12 hour shift is to add more mental load to your head. These games aren't made for gamers, more often than not, they're made for people who want to take a break. Knowing cities, most city dwellers don't have the time, money, or both to go to nature.

[@lhrosts7082]

Okay, but Dorfromantik has a lot of friction though. Trying to fit things neatly with as many matches as possible can quickly become a headache-inducing grind (in a good sense of the term). Meanwhile Unpacking has the benefit of using its main mechanic as a storytelling medium. A huge portion of the game is happening inside your head, where you're getting to know the main character and process new events of her life. At one point a though came to me that Terra Nil is missing a story. Like, give it a small cast of characters tasked with doing all the restoration work, have a climate/biome guy, an animals girl, a tech person. Have them react to things like "Look at it! It's raining, you've made it rain!". Have them guide you instead of the book, providing emotional context to your actions and giving the process more inertia to make you move from level to level, thus making things more a part of a whole. The game as it is feels kinda dead, as ironic as it may sound.

[@sacb0y]

@@iqbalindaryono8984 It's not about mental load it's about engagement.

[@ruckly1241]

The most immediate problem seems to be the "Green Bucks" currency, for a few reasons. First, they're way too abstract. What are they exactly? How do you use them to build building? Do Green Bucks represent goodwill from the spirits of nature? I'm okay with abstract currencies, science points leap to mind, but leaf power seems so disconnected from the real world themes of the game is trying to present. Second, the incentives are too well aligned. Green Bucks rewards you for doing what you already were supposed to do, making a positive feedback loop. This isn't necessarily bad in most games, but Green Bucks are suppose to be a resource, not a reward. They aren't your score. You aren't trying to maximize your Green Bucks, you're trying to beautify the landscape. The visuals and theming are reward enough. And since Green Bucks are the only mechanical feedback loop, they drain any potential tension from the game. And finally, combining the two, Green Bucks have troubling thematic implications. Rewarding you for restoring the landscape by letting you restore more landscape trivializes why the landscape was ruined to begin with. Powering your economy with good vibes doesn't offer any real world solutions, instead implying that some magic future technology will be invented to save the world for us. We have the knowledge to do most of this already, it just takes a long time and, most importantly, isn't profitable. What do I suggest instead? Add in the reason things got so bad to begin with, industry and resource extraction. Rather than making buildings from good vibes, use building materials extracted from the environment. Suddenly the first step isn't greenify the land, but strip mine it for materials. You can't restore an area you're actively mining, so you have to eventually cut yourself off from your resource production. And if materials are scarce enough, you'll need to scrap your old buildings as you play instead of at the very end, adding another layer of tension. This would also make urban areas some of the easiest, as your first step would be to scrap the ruins for materials and to clear space. I have a bunch of other ideas as well. Make terraforming gradual rather than instantaneous. Let green tiles decay if you remove the terraformer to early. Limit where power generation is most effective, so wind power works best at the top of a hill, but doesn't work in the middle of a forest or at the bottom of a canyon. Moisture condensers on hilltops to generate water for rivers, which will need to be replaced with trees to get the same effect. But fixing the economy/industry would be and important first step. This is all theory-crafting and spitballing. I haven't played Terra Nil yet, so I'm just going off of what I've seen and the problems described in the video. I love the idea behind Terra Nil. But I would love it even more if it was grounded in real world ecology, rather than magic green tech powered by good vibes.

[@atahan-youtube]

Thats such a great and well put together idea! I can already imagine how a game like that would work, and I might even make it for a gamejam or something in the future lol. I hope you don't mind me borrowing it 😋

[@ruckly1241]

@@atahan-youtube Feel free. I just want a game like that to exist.

[@Hradish]

@@ruckly1241 A game that does something similar is "Beecarbonize" it's a free game on mobile. While pretty simple it has you managing building up industry and your pollution levels.

[@HyperBlazingg]

trying to restore the environment of an area you’re actively destroying sounds like an awesome idea for a game

[@ruckly1241]

@@HyperBlazingg Morally complex video games!

[@VCE4]

Important is an idea behind the game, not the game itself. I remember when I tried a demo version for the first time. You start with simple black screen and melancholic music, with a completely dead dried wasteland as next thing to see. And then - you step by step turning it in a thriving with life green landscape. You can see, hear and feel how this land gradually changes into something so natural, yet so beautiful. When I played demo for the first time - it legitimately made me cry. There are no many "games" that could achieve that. But if to try to compare it to actual games, that focus on gameplay, then of course it will be underwhelming. To what you can even compare it really? The only "similar" thing that comes to my mind is Terra Genesis and nothing more. (Also, Rip that melancholic piano melody at the start in demo. Will miss it).

[@sacb0y]

Maybe that works the first time you play but does it carry a whole $30 game?

[@VCE4]

@@sacb0y that is a different question

[@scientist784]

I think you can compare it weirdly to Orb of Creation. Of course way to represent creation of the world is different, it kinda has same point: to create a thing out of other thing.

[@nunyabiznes7446]

As someone who played through the entirety of Terra Nil... yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Especially when talking about the difficulty levels - it's a problem with the design, not the balance of numbers themselves. For the level variants I cranked the difficulty up and it's exactly as you described. The game is either turn-your-brain-off straightforward or actually impossible (maybe there's a way to generate enough Greenbucks in that dredging level? if there is I haven't been able to find it), with no space between. A funny wrinkle is that in a lot of cases if you want to fully complete the level - all 6 animal species, all environmental goals achieved, maybe some steam achievements as well - you kind of have to start wrecking shit. In many levels I found myself dumping a bunch of machines down to introduce massive, swinging atmospheric changes, leaving behind giant patches of torched forest or freeze-dried grasslands in a way that seems really antithetical to the message the game is trying to send. It also made the 'appreciate' button kind of hilarious. "Ah yes, pristine nature. Mostly on fire, criss-crossed by a lattice of petrified canals. So beautiful." It really exposed what to my mind is one of the major flaws of the game - it's not actually about balancing the environment. One you tick the 'rains start' box, the rains will keep going even if you dry everything out and freeze the entire county. Tundra needs dryness to grow, but once it's there you can inundate the place and it's not affected at all. Glaciers need -10 degrees to form but once they're there, they're there, no matter what you do to the temperature after. To much game, not enough terraforming. I wonder what the game would be like without this - I suspect that it might be a little more challenging, a bit more deliberate, if you had to think ahead instead of just reaching the point where you have infinite time and resources to yank all the levers in different directions with your crazy machines so all the boxes are ticked.

[@deefpaladin]

Timberborn does the environmental revitalizing city-builder much better. It's a traditional citybuilder, where to expand your city you have to spread water, which brings grass and plant growth with it.

[@nomurLethalmud]

My main gripe is that beavers don't build on land, they build in water. The beavers in timberborn are just humans that look like beavers. I don't know why that bothers me so much.

[@nologin5375]

Admittedly timberborn is quite stressful if you don't plan well for the first few days, but once you get to a stable point it definitely becomes much more relaxing

[@arjunsatheesh7609]

@@nologin5375 At the higher difficulty settings it is tougher to reach an 'equilibrium' with Ironteeth but once you have cracked the 3 day wet and 30 day dry season, you can coast along while going almost 'creative mode'.

[@k1rkpad]

Just started playing this, you've hit the nail on the head. Little thought besides just placing structures down. I almost ran out of green leaves because I wasn't optimizing enough... But that's it

[@Khaim.m]

Yep. I jumped in on "hard" because I'd seen enough videos to understand the gameplay, and it just wasn't engaging. I nearly lost a few times but even that wasn't interesting - I just had to focus on maximizing ROI for a while until I hit the rain threshold and then the whole thing was trivial.

[@clovebeans713]

Only the alternate levels have some challenge

[@solsystem1342]

I definitely think there's some interesting opportunities in trying to do runs with custom difficulty turned way up. I'm pretty sure the hardest settings are just impossible but, how far can you push it? Idk

[@xavierburval4128]

I think a good addition to the game would be to expand upon the “ideal conditions” system that the game has. If you haven’t seen the game, certain buildings and environments become “ideal” when they are placed in certain conditions, for example a certain interval of heat and humidity. The issue is that all this “ideal” status does is give you a marginal amount of extra green points and make the area look nicer, which granted is a decent reward when the purpose is making a beautiful environment. But I really think it would be interesting to make the environmental conditions the main thing you have to optimize, even creating different conditions in different areas instead of having the entire map having one humidity, temperature, toxicity, or whatever other variables there are. This would lead the player to plan out more, and create different regions in the right order so they don’t collapse. One of the things you notice is that the better you make the land, the easier it becomes to improve it further. The best example is rain/snowfall, which basically removes the need for toxin scrubbers and irrigators once you get enough humidity. It’s a good feature, but there should also be an inverse, where one wrong move can create a feedback loop that continually worsens the world and forces you to get it back to where it needs to be. Again this rewards the player for planning ahead, and actually adds value to the extra variables. That being said, I think the current version should stay as the “easy mode”, where you can just enjoy the fun of restoring the environment and making a nice looking landscape. But if they want to really consider themselves a strategy/puzzle game, they need to make it more engaging and complex

[@Remist0]

Imagine that there are people who play Sims only in building mode just enjoying the creation process at their own pace.

[@sethzard]

Weirdly I found it frustratingly hard at points but overall had a good time. Things get more crunchy post main credits too.

[@zacharynetzer819]

The whole time you were describing the lack of mastery in Terra Nil, I was thinking "Man, they should look to Slipways as an excellent example for challenge in a relaxing game." Glad you brought it up, it's criminally underated.

[@SpopySpider]

Something I found out while playing this current versions and the betas, is that there's genuinely hard seeds, and whenever I stumbled upon one of those the game is a delight, the puzzle comes to form as you are always struggling to maintain your green bucks afloat while keeping up with your objectives. If you are having a bad time with the game, maybe reset the stage a few times and you might stumble upon a little gem, but as it currently is, I have to completely agree, the game feels completely mindless, that can be fun, I enjoy meditative experiences, but it is completely devoid of challenge and after doing the first 4 biomes there's little motivation to reply them or play the "harder" versions.

[@aneru9396]

1:12 I legit hate it when people set up false expectations like that. Same thing happened with Slipways on how everyone was pushing the "it's like a chill 4X game" moniker on it, only for me to buy it and discover it's a min/max intensive turn based puzzle game. And that was just torture for me to play lol

[@killerbee.13]

Video game genres are very often more about aesthetics than actual gameplay, it seems

[@pallingtontheshrike6374]

>reverse city builder do they not realize a core function of city-building is that a lot of stuff will progress and change and shift in the background that you have to respond to? and that the very real-time nature (pauses aside) is what gives the pressure that genre needs? (or the p2w, but that's the shittier versions)

[@hedgehog3180]

@@pallingtontheshrike6374 The core gameplay loop of a city builder is planing new projects in order to meet new demands, if you're constantly responding to problems then you're not really very good at the genre. Like yeah you do occasionally have to go back and fix shit because you fucked up but you're mostly planing out new areas and new infrastructure. The only city builder game I can think of that's like what you describe is the always online Simcity but that was just programmed terribly.

[@pallingtontheshrike6374]

@@hedgehog3180 >new demands these are literally the same as problems, except for the paint of coat called "initiative." Like, you can say "oh well i need more copper but that's technically not a *problem* by factorio terms" but that's just sophistry.

[@NicholasKratzer]

The thing that really disappointed me about Terra Nil is its lack of development. I played the game jam prototype and the demo for hours when they came out, and I loved it. I could see so much potential! The prototype had a building that raised up the ground so you could make highlands where ever. I expected the full game to expand that massively. I imagined a level that was just an empty flatland, and I would have to use terrain modification to make lakes and rivers and mountains, while carefully planning my layout and costs. I imagined growing plant life in an area to make money, then having to destroy it again to contain a dangerous infection or destructive machine, giving a small glimpse into what killed this world. I saw so many ways they could branch off and spin out parts of the prototype to give the game so much depth and variety. Then the full game came out, and I wondered what they had been doing for the last 3 years. It feels like all the full game added was better graphics over top the prototype. Nothing feels new. It's still all just "grow the land and remove the machines", with each level just slightly changing up the tools you have available. The few "hard" levels were more about figuring out the new trick than actual challenge. Toxic Quarry? Use the desiccator to start a grass fire rather than flowers. Frozen Glacier? Use solar panels and burners to raise the temp until all the snow melts, then play as usual. It all feels so shallow. Where is the creativity and innovation that went into the prototype? Did it really take 3 years just to add a monorail and some pretty graphics? God I hope someone revisits this idea and gives it the depth it deserves.

[@donov25]

Well I enjoyed my time with it. I guess I agree it's a little too frictionless but I dunno I still liked it.

[@vampire_ferret4142]

Honestly this is one of my biggest disappointments about the result. The original itch version is easily my favorite, despite it winding up having the opposite problem. There, the repeatable nature comes from the fact that the final stage, the island, combines all prior mechanics and biomes into a genuine challenge, but unfortunately suffers from true random map generation making it genuinely impossible to win. Despite that, it's preferable, because I can *actually lose*, compared to the full release of Terra Nil where it barely takes even half a map of grass to just brute force precipitation as an instant win button.

[@JrTroopa]

"Popular KZbinr Masahiro Sakurai" bruh that felt like a slap to me 🤣

[@loijz1740]

The only issue I had with Terra Nil, that it was to short. I had it through within two days. There of course could be more depth, but actually, I was quite happy to have a simple, colourful, beautiful game to play for a few hours.

[@okjoz]

I played the the (new) demo for Terra Nil and it instantly captivated me. What I liked was the sheer simplicity. I just wanted more of the same. I will say, the additions to the game you suggested wouldn't take away from the experience though, so I feel like they might as well be implemented. What I'm saying is that I have no contention with the game, but also am perfectly fine with the kind of additions you suggestions. Also, it's a crime in my state that you don't have more subscribers :)

[@ThylineTheGay]

decent point tbh. was really worried that this was just going to be gatekeepy nonsense

[@teguh.hofstee]

To me Terra Nil also misses the mark on just being a nice relaxing Zen game too, for many of the reasons you've laid out. It doesn't matter what I do, it just feels like I'm going through the motions and feels more tedious than relaxing. It also feels like it just forces you to go through the phases in the same order for all the planets, and they feel kinda samey to me despite the biomes being different. The game I wanted Terra Nil (as a puzzle game) to be goes something like this: - You start on a planet, ravaged by humanity, with most of its resources drained. Humans have been here, took nearly everything the planet had to offer, and left. Think Wall-E. - You need to use the last bits of resources, causing more harm to the planet, to build the tools and equipment needed to terraform it back to its original state. There's a puzzle element here where if you make the wrong choices you run out of resources before you can gain enough momentum for the terraforming to succeed, and you fail the puzzle. The starting ecosystem you created can't sustain itself, you have no renewable materials, etc. - You gain enough momentum, achieving something along the lines of automated Factorio setups, and it spirals out of control. You have tons of equipment and tons of progress is being made in terraforming. Not necessarily hard, but hopefully satisfying to watch. It might make the next phase more difficult if you create more than you need, and you could have Zachtronics-style minmaxing here by having incentive to make the minimum amount of equipment to terraform this planet. - The world is now terraformed, but you have all this equipment that is now junk leaving traces of humanity. Now you have a different puzzle, how do you dismantle everything you've created in a way that leaves no trace. Doing things wrong here means you've destroyed the equipment needed to get rid of everything else. In Terra Nil it's almost trivial to get rid of everything, but I feel like it could have had something fun that leads to a satisfying conclusion. Maybe it becomes a puzzle of managing the finite amount of energy you have left to clean up everything instead. Oops, you ran out of energy because you dismantled the wind farm and can't quite reach the last piece of equipment remaining. - With good balance, you could just start with worlds that have different resources, and with enough difficulty it might take a few tries before you figure out how to get past the startup phase, and a few more tries to figure out how to successfully clean up at the end. Maybe a mix of generated worlds for replayability if there is some to be had, and a few fixed seeds that make up leaderboards if you want to compete with friends or others.

[@iqbalindaryono8984]

You might as well find another game at that point, this is a game to relax to. It would be like adding fps elements to a grand strategy game or dating sim elements to a survival horror game. The things that could be added by those elements more often than not take more out of the game.

[@teguh.hofstee]

@@iqbalindaryono8984 Oh absolutely. I've been following the development of Terra Nil loosely since it was a ludum dare prototype. I more meant if a game like Terra Nil leaned more heavily into the puzzle aspect those are some things I would have liked to see. The balance of the early builds was kind of whack and actually rather difficult. As it is now though, it doesn't quite go far enough in either direction to do it for me, and I thought the video already covered the Zen aspect better than I could so I just wanted to take it the other direction.

[@Afterthoughts]

"the numbers are a little bit fucked" lmaoo We've all played that game. Seeing it in motion, I still wanna give Terra Nil a shot :) I love love love the premise.

[@arc9171]

imo, terra nil isn't meant to be a difficult game, it's like going and complaining that theres no challenge to going out on a walk in the park, and suggesting there could be more bear attacks or perilous terrain to make it more interesting or something. it's meant to be appreciated, not agonized over.

[@kv1_t34]

I think this is a great example of "adult wants childrens game to be better for adults", the way I see it, Terra Nil is a very simple puzzle game with a good enviromental message. I think its enjoyable to play, and great for kids. There are many simple games with great friction and risk/reward gameplay, like Mini Metro. As you said yourself, does everything need to be challenging? Just turn off your higher level strategic thinking and fix a planet for a few hours.

[@GadBoDag]

Children get bored when things are too easy, too.

[@hedgehog3180]

@@GadBoDag You definitely misunderstood that metaphor. The point is that not every game is made for you and sometimes when you find a game un-engaging it's just because it's not made for you. Terra Nil probably isn't made for you if you want your relaxing games to also be complex puzzles. It's fine if you don't like it but sometimes you have to step back and acknowledge that it might not be an issue with the game but simply be because you're not the target audience and you were imposing your expectations on a game. It's not a shock that if you're used to more complex games then you'll find a rather simple one boring but not every game has to be made for people who are very familiar with games.

[@dojelnotmyrealname4018]

Honestly, I don't mind Terra Nil that much. Yes, the victory condition is seemingly halfway in (making rainfall happen), and yes, the reverse city builder tagline is complete bullshit, but as an optimization puzzle it's not awful. I especially respect the fact that the monorail system reinforces the waste hierarchy (reduce, reuse, recycle) quite cleanly. Yes, I agree that the green bucks system is extremely arbitrary, and it's certainly not a perfect game (my god is it overpriced), but it's still a fun puzzle for how long it lasts. That said I don't agree with the idea that the hard mode doesn't add friction. It most definitely does. You *can* weasel your way out of it with smart use of monorails and efficiency, so it's certainly not "one path to victory".

[@icefirepython]

Lemme just ask, where is the friction in pressure washer simulator?

[@joeytcb]

My favourite part of the video was you describing Masahiro Sakurai only as "popular youtuber" 😅 Unironically though his videos are great

[@heroepato]

Sounds like the problem is that Terra Nil has clear dominant strategies. That is, strategies that are better than any alternative. To keep the game easy but add depth, there should be many strategies, all of which work, but it isn't clear which one is "best".

[@ShadeScarecrow]

Definetly see your point, but I also disagree. Not every game needs friction. I don´t see a problem with games just beeing a chill, satisfying experience without any stakes. Now one might argue, "its a puzzle game, there needs to be a way to fail the puzzle". But is that really the case? Look at puzzles (yknow, those things where you just put the right pieces together so you get a picture at the end). Those don´t have any friction, no stakes, besides maybe the risk of loosing a piece or two. Yet they are massivly populare because they are satisfying and relaxing. Ofcourse this also means its not for everyone, no game is. And thats fine.

[@aidanaldrich7795]

"The thing with the friction is if you friction the friction, the friction will start to get friction"

[@hedgehog3180]

Tbf this does sound a lot more like a you problem than a problem with the game. The argument does sorta boil down to the fact that you like having challenge in your games even if they're supposed to be relaxing and in fact you find the challenge itself relaxing. I can relate to that but I wouldn't go so far as to assume that this is universal. Some people don't really want much of a challenge in their game and in a game specifically about creating a pretty landscape it's not really a surprise that it doesn't have much challenge. This game is simply just aimed at a different audience than you and I wouldn't call that a fault with the game, and I'm only being this harsh because it seems like you've completely failed to consider that the game might just simply not be for you and instead taken your own disappointment to be an indicator of a lack of quality. This is a game for the segment of people who play Minecraft on peaceful or play city builder games in sandbox mode because they just wanna spend their game making pretty landscapes and stuff.

[@scientist784]

But game would gain something maybe if it did have an option for harder gameplay? Also if you are looking for comparison you may check Orb of Creation, which on a first patch had too much of so called "friction" and now it feels a lot smoother. And also is about creating a world.

[@Latronibus]

Your description and visual depiction of Slipways immediately made me think of Solar Settlers, which I really enjoyed but have not revisited for several years (despite never really becoming a master of it).

[@tatters8236]

I played the old freeware version of Terra Nil a while back and it had the opposite problem to what you're describing, where making one small mistake could softlock you completely. I guess they never found a good middle ground.

[@colinsmith1495]

People so often forget that working within boundaries (like finite resources) can PROMOTE creativity, not restrict it.

[@astrid2432]

2:36 Euro Truck sim has Friction I mean it better have for a game where friction is important to move for or stop in time (ok the joke was bad I know)

[@teamcyeborg]

The title excited me for the idea of a physics game with no friction but then I came out caring VERY MUCH about this so

[@cancerguy5435]

I honestly am kinda upset at how surface-level the game really is. Multiple years in development and 20 pounds of payment just to get... cool graphics? I've been expecting upgraded buildings, building that require you to excavate resources from the land so that you have to balance ecological and industrial advancement, maybe research centres that would demand cities to be built so that you can discover new kinds of structures - it's not particularly difficult to see where it could to. Instead, we've got some variety in ultimately performing the same thing. Variety in power generation that doesn't lead to any meaningful conclusion, variety in biomes that ultimately just seems pointless. Imagine how cool it would be if the last mission was to recolonize the land with your new thermonuclear plants and ultra-modern cities capable of producing 0 waste. Alas, we haven't got that luxury.

[@sagitswag1785]

POV: You discover sandbox games for the first time

[@simonpetersen8986]

Only thing its needs is different loose condition, for example if the geological stability fail in the last level you loose, machines have stricter weather conditions, and you can only modify it one way, example in the island one you cannot cool the air, and one of the optional task requires high humidity low temperature, so if you higher the temperature first you are lock out. The last thing is to let weather, only work when you have the right conditions, and stop again if you loose the condition, so you cannot have snow at 50 degrees Celsius.

[@mitchlindgren]

Maybe I just suck at Terra Nil, but I didn't find it that easy. I got through the four base maps without too much trouble, but then I tried to do the alternate versions and I'm having a lot of trouble getting the required amount of greenery without exhausting my leafbucks first. Perhaps I'm missing some fundamental strategy. That said, I didn't enjoy it that much either. It did become kind of tedious, and didn't really offer the "reverse city builder" experience that I hoped it would.

[@QuartzChrysalis]

steam has been recommending me terra nil, but even from the store page something about it seemed unfun. i will buy slipways though, it looks much more like what i want

[@someweeb3650]

tbh this is how I feel about every game that isn't directly built around being complicated at this point. Almost everything feels like it was made for the lowest common denominator, an idiot that doesn't want to bother engaging with mechanics, great concepts that have to be dumbed down with none of their potential realized just because they couldn't be fucked to design a system that wasn't confusing. It's probably why I like simulators so much, since when everything is forced to be realistic, you get depth and an intuitive understanding of the subject because you're probably already a nerd about a subject to be playing a simulator of it.

[@ShockedLogic]

While I agree that it's frictionless, I don't agree with that being a problem. I personally love the game as just a pleasant canvas, I guess more toy than game, where I do a bit of interaction and slowly regrow a landscape. Though it's way overpriced, especially compared to other really chill "toy-games" like Townscaper.

[@pantalaimon6176]

i really appreciate the quality of script in these videos! absolutely lovely to watch:)

[@aguyontheinternet8436]

I have played the demo for terra nil, and I don't know what the hell you are talking about because the last level was damn near impossible

[@nicrule4424]

This is the difference between a Game and a Toy. A toy has no lose condition.

[@drago939393]

Even match-3 games for soccer moms contain decision making and friction.

[@benji-menji]

I think this game is more of an experience and a game second. The push in pull has been limited to optimization because they want to focus on getting people to do something from the start rather than a daunting challenge. Even then I bet someone out there will find it challenging if they are slower to optimize.

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

You know, my game play strategy of beelining for the rain does make the game more challenging and full of decisions (only on the hardest difficulty though).

[@scientist784]

Orb of Creation is an incremental game and to some degree feels close to this case, but opposite. In a first patch there was too much friction and I am really glad developer actually made game feel smoother and less clunky.

[@JamieElli]

To some extent, the game is just a puzzle, especially at harder difficulties. Fit the pieces together right for the solution. And that's less active than a lot of games, but not necessarily a bad idea.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

There's a game by the UN (yes really) called Stop Disasters, which is meant to teach kids about the ways that various natural disasters can be made less bad via infrastructure. That's reasonably similar to this game in aesthetic. So it can work, in theory.

[@Marqan]

I have to agree, Terra Nil should 100% appeal to me on paper, but fails to engage me in the end. There's the argument that Terra Nil is more of a relaxation experience, but that doesn't excuse the game of its problems. There are many relaxing games with proper give-and-take mechanics: Car Mechanic Simulator, Shipbreaker, Graveyard Keeper, Cities Skylines, Farming Simulator. If you like the appeal of Terraforming, then you have Surviving Mars, which does terraforming very well, there's very easy difficulties, and it's more in-depth, but can still be relaxing. Planet Crafter is a first person terraforming game, and I believe it has easy and creative modes, very satisfing game, if a bit rough around the edges. Also for Terra Nil the average playtime of recommendations is very short. For comparison Dredge came out 2 days later, and the average playtime for positive recommendations is almost double of Terra Nil. Which means either the Terra Nil is not engaging, or extremely short. I'm glad people who bought it have fun with it mostly, but it's just not a very good game overall.

[@zenithrium]

Maybe this is just me thinking it would be cool so it must be good for the game, but I was really hoping for an absolutely huge level with every single biome at once. It’d probably still be easy since the currency is infinite but it would at least feel like a culmination of what you’ve done

[@dojelnotmyrealname4018]

The problem with slipways is that there's too many ways to fuck yourself without knowing. The scanning for planets gets in the way of the omniscience the game seemingly expects you to have.

[@LizardOfOz]

"If the game's too hard, player can make no decision" - that's how I felt about the last level of the itchio prototype - the margin for error was so small, I felt like I'm hunting down the exact configuration the devs have intended, as opposed to solving a challenge in my own way.

[@thefrenchdev965]

I think you raised an essential point. That is also why playtesting games is so essential, to make sure that the game mechanics are enjoyable/interesting.

[@WManden]

The main problem is definitely a lack of engagement, and having most decision lead to victory is definitely a factor, but I don't think adding conflict is the only solution. If the game wanted be about the innate satisfaction from terraforming environment, an alternative is simply slowing the game down. Lean into the satisfaction of incremental progress that games like stardew valley, animal crossing, and powerwashing simulator have. Have each toxic scrubber take like 5 minutes, have grass slowly cover the land, and increases the size of each level. And now you have immensely satisfying and chill gaming experience.

[@Bluelink13]

Ultimately, I am glad I was able to play the mobial version via my Netflix subscription because, yeah, it was nice to fill in an hour or two when I had them through the week but overall while I don't mind the lack of friction, it just doesn't lend itself to replayability for me at least, so spending 30 bucks on it would have feel a bit disappointing

[@Lexyvil]

Reminds me of SimEarth when I tried to terraform Mars. Sadly it wasn't realistic since I obtained forests with environments where the temperature was below the freezing point of water.

[@Lemony123]

Terra Nil feels very similar to Building Game in my opinion, They recommend to make a good house with several specific requirements, Altought the main goal is to make something that satisfy yourself,

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

Terra Nil at its current state is kind of like Minecraft, but only on easy mode and no creative. It's rarely hard and you have to make your own challenges. The exhilarating time I have had with the game was trying to get 100% achievements on hard difficulty in under 5 hours.

[@eskipotato]

clicked on the video because i misread it as "terraria," stayed to listen to a video essay about a game i have never heard of before

[@jamesteavery0]

I don't think you've adequately explained why its different from the positive examples you've given. I think that it's just genre that separates them. If you were travelling through a 3d world with limited verbs I don't believe you'd necessarily have the same issue, It's just that this is a strategy game that doesn't need much strategy. I too think that difficulty is more important in strategy games than other genres, but I don't think that's the game's problem, I think it's how humans interact with different forms of stimulus. I think if you stripped out some of the trappings of strategy/management games you might be more able to enjoy it for what it is.

[@scientist784]

I think case of the video was to say that a bit more of a challenge would make world creating a bit more satisfying and less "empty". For me Orb of Creation is a great example of a game which had too much friction and it gained by actually removing it while maintaining depth.

[@neidmaremodding]

Which difficulties have you played? From the video it came across as if you were playing on the 'gardener' difficulty, I've tried both 'gardener' and 'environmental engineer' and the latter definitely has some 'frictrion' there. You cant just spam down buildings willy nilly, you have to put some thought to it.

[@Linkard]

Oh shit! I used to play both Tera Nil AND Slipways' free web versions some years back! But I had no idea that Slipways also released a new version!!

[@Zoulstorm]

Maybe the issue is that there’s no civilization to provide the counter balance? If earth was devoid of humans it would be trivial to put it back in a clean natural state, but the conflict comes from humanity that wants food, room and amenities that goes at odds with nature. If you needed to strike a balance between giving humanity what it needs and nature what it needs then you have a good puzzle.

[@nngnnadas]

I only played the demo. For the first few rounds I got soft-locked or at least close enough to it. But even after I finished it I played again, because I wanted to be more efficient. I largely agree with you. But maybe giving "advance" high efficiency/ success goals after you already finished a level, could make the game "harder" without a fundamental redesign.

[@ptkstefano]

I really wanted to play this game and got excited because the developers were holding two giveaways on Twitter with not that many entries. I was going to buy it after the giveaway (If i didn't win) but it seems like they've just forgotten about the giveaway and I didn't bother buying. I'm kind of glad I held off because the lack of challenge would bore the hell out of me even if I like the themes of the game.

[@TheGerkuman]

I know using food analogies is always bad, but I feel like the difference between simplicity and lack of depth is like the difference between beans on toast and candyfloss. Both are simple (one is heated up baked beans on grilled bread, one is spun sugar) but in the end, one is going to leave you more full than the other.

[@efenty6235]

if you didn’t get leafbux and actually had to _exploit_ the natural resources to balance the budget this game could be so engaging...

[@Luka116_]

personally the game was great, I enjoyed it not for any challenge or lack-there-of, but for the feeling of... well, doing something good obviously I know that just playing a game doesn't really do that, but it's what drove me to follow its development & eventually play the game I know that's not why everyone played it, and that there's people like you who've not enjoyed it even, but just wanted to say there are some who have

[@Dolthra]

I feel like Terra Nil is shooting for a more Townscaper vibe than anything else. You've got some choices to make, but they're not necessarily meaningful- or, at least, not impactful enough to stop you from just doing what you want. One of those games where you can let your creativity flow, but within a semblance of realistic constraints. Their "reverse city builder," beyond being a gimmick, is kind of that design philosophy- a SimCity or Cities: Skylines has you worrying about population, traffic, employment this is simply "don't make things worse."

[@plussum3255]

When I saw this game it reminded me of creeper world

[@ThatReplyGuy]

Cue modding community.

[@neubtuber]

It's amazing but so short, even the challenge levels have like one harder and its just one gimmick that you have to think about. If they had randomization and more biomes with unique challenges this game could have so much more depth.

[@wontgive6047]

"...if you are a human being that breeds..."

[@VideoGamesAreBad]

breathes!!! lmao

[@charlieinslidell]

Terra Nil reminds me of Simcity Societies, a game that has you only plopping buildings down in completely arbitrary and meaningless ways in order to influence the population. At least in Terra Nil there is an extra game element of your buildings influencing the ecosystem and environment, which is nice to look at.

[@LKTTRG]

Maybe it would be better if it was cheaper for what it offer, or maybe I'm just poor

[@kv1_t34]

Sail the seven seas then.

[@afterwords_]

I see Chariot Rider mentioned Mini Metro - I'd been struggling to think of a similar "chill" game that still manages to engage you in every small decision, but that's the perfect example xD thanks, Chariot. Every time I need to draw a new line I'm like "oh man hm ok let me conduct a small survey of my populace."

[@menelik6635]

CAPER STORY! ONE OF MY FAVOURITES. GREAT MUSIC CHOICE!!!!

[@sevret313]

I do feel like the game is a bit flat for me, but it does one thing well that many other games does not, it let me see the impact I'm making in the world and not just on the HUD. It lacks more levers to pull and I hope future game devs will learn from this and hopefully with advances in generative AI, creating assets required to do more things like this will be more affordable.

[@jeice13]

Considering the mechanic about removing machines to leave unmitigated nature it seems possible the designers are basically anti human and didnt make it fun as a side effect. There are people who see humans as a disease and why would you make a disease happy

[@AndrewVasirov]

Great video, when I clicked on this video though, I thought it was a simulator game where friction wasn't a thing making objects fly forever lol

[@foxokon94]

I honestly really like Terra Nil, I have 10 hours logged in the game and definitely got my moneys worth. But I agree it's not challenging enough. It is challenging if you play on the harder difficulty and some of the later levles on normal difficulty. But they don't really offer friction even then, but it probably could have. Spoilers for the game if you want to play it following. After you have finished the four 'main levels' you unlock a second level in each area. In the first one of these you are tasked with regrowing an area where there are 0 trees, this means that when you make your way to part 2 you can't place beehives. So you have to figure out another way to create flammable land. This would have been a cool little puzzle if didn't require a building you don't really ever use otherwise, there had been multiple solutions(I would have mad there be a way for lava to burn buildings personally, letting you make small forests around the optional lava pools in the level and go from there.) and wasn't the only time the game gives you a puzzle like this. I thought it might be a bug in the world generation at first, instead of an intended puzzle. Point being, the game needed more stuff like that, parts where you were challenge to figure out exactly what all the buildings do and use them together in interesting ways to beat the level. Because at the moment, even on higher difficulty, the game is incredibly linear.

[@nngnnadas]

you cracked me up at "popular youtuber Masahiro Sakurai"

[@Koh-Wei-Jian]

Pick the harder difficulty. The buildings now costs 65 instead of 50

[@GameFuMaster]

probably just need a money aspect. Save the environment while making it cost as little as possible. Maybe make it into a roguelike kind of thing. And maybe build on this idea with actually harvesting the resources as well. I.e. choose one species of animal over another because the market is in demand or something. Otherwise, it just feels like environmental activism, and that's it.

[@carto4028]

Personally I think if a game has resource management than that resource management shouldn't be so easy that it might as well be a unlimited sandbox. A game without risk should also be a game without set purpose. Reaching your purpose without risks makes victory hollow.

[@Retrofire-47]

After contemplating the role of difficulty in video games, it kind of occurred to me that much of the "fun" we elicit from playing them is more-so dressed up evolutionary psychology. Let me explain: the very first extant video game - Pong - incorporated some very basic game design mechanics we now accept as standard; you needed to *improve* via a score system, the player was destined to *conquer* their adversary, and the tactile nature of the game stimulated our *motor coordination* and *reflexes*. My assessment is that - at least for me - if a game isn't fun - why bother? I think "fun" is our instinctual desire to conquer obstacles that threaten our survival [the enemy AI].. to obtain resources [score].. by using our abilities [tactile buttons and reaction time]. So, in this way, a game that promotes "you can do anything... woOoh!" is a hollow sale - because we purchase "fun" by conquering obstacles. And obstacles ultimately need to be present in order to have "fun". Perhaps the most "free" experience you can have is literally game programming... because all the confines of any fictional environment have been removed, and you are left with nothing, and everything, simultaneously. It occurs to me that certain games subvert this formula like Life is Strange - for example, but these often play on social dynamics which disguise an inner-system. Maxine Caulfield is in this crucible to compete for status [her fellow peers] and the evil Mr. Jefferson plays on certain evolutionary stimuli [sex, fear, status] to attack the player's prestige. I dunno why I felt it necessary to write all that, but my experience has been that if a game lacks this fundamental idea then I simply cannot be engaged.. and that can be interpreted as "I need to feel rewarded" when I play a game... but let's look at the very first game again: *why* do you replay Pong?

[@juzzam3]

I want to love this game, but i think you hit it why I haven't got the Steam version yet, there needs to be a challenge to make it more interesting.

[@psal8715]

I disagree that its about giving back, its about conquering the wastelands.

[@VCE4]

More like "reclaiming" instead of "conquering", by nature

[@riesenfliegefly7139]

I saw the game in the steam store just a few days ago and also thought it looks really interesting at first. Cleaning up a planet instead of destroying it is afterall not just a moral, but also a gameplay novelty, but then I looked at the trailers and I felt what you just described, the game seems to be incredible flat and non challenging, when honestly, bringing new life into a desolate husk should be kind of challenging and it would feel even more rewarding when you do get it done. I ended up not buying the game which is pretty unfortunate considering the premise.