Test Optional Admissions: The Biggest Victims - So Far!

You've probably heard all about the purported benefits of many of America's most selective colleges going "test-optional" (SAT- or ACT-optional) for first-year admission. Yet, in this video I talk about this regime's greatest victims.
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[@ce5962]

I wish there was data on how kids with SAT scores below 1400 and got into Ivy Leagues are performing academically in college

[@CollegeMeister]

Here is some from MIT: www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/briefing/the-misguided-war-on-the-sat.html

[@a238859]

Thank you for standing up for meritocracy in college admission. It is such a misguided notion that standardized tests are bad for equity when other parts of the application can be fudged by people with means much more easily.

[@williamliamsmith4923]

14:40 - apparently there _is_ some research (I heard on another channel called supertutor tv about this) indicating SAT score indicates one’s ability to succeed. She was mentioning this when saying you could get into college A or college B and may get rejected from your favorite level 1 college but even a level 2 college will help you to succeed to similar level. There is some networking effect etc one would lose on, but for most people college with slightly less credentials does not make or break their careers. On the other hand, those students who get into difficult colleges without capacity to learn will likely not be able to keep up.

[@vrherath]

I believe 1450+ SAT score would be considered positively by highly selective colleges because only 3% of test takers score above that. Such a score with other recognized achievements could put a student beyond the finishing line. 1450+ SAT score may not negatively affect ones application.

[@karancapoor1583]

Absolutely nailed it!

[@jesss2235]

Agreed. Grades are often granted 24:11 and adjusted by many teachers. SAT is harder to manipulate and high scoreres are the students who are high achievers. Give those students green lights not others.

[@21stcenturydadd]

Really insightful video, packed with information on what’s ACTUALLY going on. It’s a shame

[@areebshaukat5840]

Video starts at 5:10

[@saalllmmmmaaaa]

What would make more sense is a generally achievable cutoff of 1350-1400, where you must be above that score, but do not actually send it. College Board sends a statement to the college verifying you have scored above a 1400 (or whatever standard the college chooses), but you do not report scores. There will always be students scoring 1550+, but this SAT studying hysteria dissipates. I highly doubt a 1460-scorer is significantly less intelligent than a 1500-scorer, or even a 1600-scorer. At the end of the day, however, they are all above the 95th percentile. Especially for international students, where curriculum is different, scoring high on American standardised tests is difficult. A German math genius may struggle with basic American math because they have never been exposed to that math. However, a German math genius will never score below the 90th percentile, despite any unique exceptions they struggle with. Also, loved your tangent on weed! I totally agree with you. One college prompt asked me what I would give a TED-talk about, and I chose to talk about the irresponsible weed legalisation and celebration, despite me being a very, very left-wing person in general.

[@harrychu650]

Perhaps relative success in the standardized exams shows that the applicant has the maturity to "grind" to achieve the necessary score. In a world where 4 out of 10 freshmen fail out/do not graduate, the ability to grind it out is a necessary skill for success in rigorous undergrad majors. I don't see the sense in allow students with high GPAs into a freshmen class and having them get pushed out by weed-out classes like calculus or chemistry.

[@saalllmmmmaaaa]

@@harrychu650 This ability to grind can be shown with other factors like extracurriculars, jobs, course difficulty, dual enrolment classes, etc. It’s not fair to expect everyone to be able to grind for the SAT. Some people have unique circumstances like needing to take care of a family member, commuting to school for hours and hours, or helping pay their family’s rent. The SAT can maybe make up for weak extracurriculars or grades, but it shouldn’t the end all be all. However, that doesn’t mean someone with a 1200 should be getting into Harvard.

[@Stella-yk1bt]

So true! My daughter had a 1550 and went to UC Berkeley (the only UC she got in), and she said there are some kids there who could not do basic math.

[@CollegeMeister]

LOL.

[@dipankarghosh8495]

One of the best college videos I have ever seen. Thank you. My son just got rejected from Princeton with 1580 sat and 4.0 and 4.5 GPA with 14 AP courses with 5 scores on all 8 AP tests.

[@dipankarghosh8495]

Unfortunately, I just told him to expect more rejections because it is not a merit based system anymore.

[@CollegeMeister]

Thank you. I am sorry to hear that about your son. I hope he has great options Regular Decision. Good luck.

[@MicCheckMemoirs]

Your son is boring. There are millions of kids out there who are outperforming him by a great margin.

[@steveunderwood7208]

What happened to the other 6 AP test scores? That may have been an issue for the admissions office.

[@CauaVictorTenorioSantosdeMelo]

I think the main problem with the mandatory testing policy is for low-income international students, who do NOT receive a fee waiver to take the tests (this is unacceptable and also represents a barrier to students applying to college)

[@R.Spad86]

Thank you for saying this.

[@ksid0644]

Personally I don't really feel that this video does any justice when it comes to representing what test-optional applications actually look like. No reputable college would every accept a student who doesn't submit ANY test scores, as pretty much every application will feature AP exam scores that DO represent the student's capabilities. Moreover, these AP scores can be reasonably used to predict the students incoming AP scores from their senior year if they are good enough. Its not like students who never take AP or honors courses who are coasting by with A's get into Ivy+ schools. I would not be surprised if in the coming years AP exams or possibly a new equivalent will be integrated into a new test-mandatory system.

[@CollegeMeister]

Many students get into these colleges from high schools that offer no AP courses and many AP students who do apply don't share their AP scores. Good luck!

[@ksid0644]

@@CollegeMeister wow, that's really interesting! I never considered that they would even consider non-ap students because of how much it's emphasized at my high school (which is public btw). Would you say that students who submit AP exam scores are more likely to be accepted due to the solid proof of their academic success or are they considered to be so far below the ACT/SAT that they still aren't important?

[@CollegeMeister]

@@ksid0644 At a good number of selective colleges, AP scores are not considered for admissions purposes; they are only considered once a student is matriculated for placement purposes only.

[@idkaname1539]

@@ksid0644For me personally, my school doesn’t have AP classes. Most people just self study the material and try to take it themselves after taking the “higher more advanced” class of that subject. So as a result, there are a lot less AP scores to submit to colleges from junior year because also at my school, the most advanced/hardest classes are taken senior year.

[@bharathivenkitaraman689]

It’s time to bring back merit into colleges.

[@dipankarghosh8495]

Best video ever seen

[@michaelbarrett4580]

There is a University of Transylvania. It’s in Kentucky I think.

[@mossfloss]

Plus, as the reported test scores creep up, the college appears to be MORE selective/elite on the college rankings, causing more people to apply there, allowing the college to raise tuition up and up. Pretty good from the institution's perspective in the short term.

[@Alanxddd]

I disagree with some points made in the video. SAT does not accurately reflect intelligence at all. Test optional and Holistic admissions is a great thing, it allows lower income hard working students get admission to these institutions. Some people don't have the time to study for these tests for months on end(I've known people who've had to hold multiple part time jobs just to support their family) and others just aren't great test takers. It doesn't mean they're not "intelligent" enough to be in positions of power. If a student shows good character and great work ethic then they will be successful.

[@CollegeMeister]

Lower income students, just like upper income students, can score well on the SAT and ACT without studying much, if at all, if they are curious, smart, and hardworking when it comes time for academics. I have worked with students from Brazil's largest favela who had no time to study because they needed to care for their siblings and earn money; yet, these students were still able to score very well on the the SAT. Of course the SAT and ACT are not perfect, but these tests do assess students' basic reading and math skills. These are skills that all students should have on the first day of college if they are attending "the best" colleges in the United States. If you think, as I do, that the SAT and ACT are not a perfect gauge of intelligence, then maybe these colleges should also allow an IQ test to stand in for submitting the SAT or ACT for those students unable to take the SAT or ACT.

[@Goodguy1ful]

Agreed.

[@julisa_8475]

⁠@@CollegeMeisterthe fact that those Brazil students scored well is not a good generalization for the scores that racial minorities and low income students in the U.S. get. Many schools are underfunded yet with the correct preparation, students from those schools can go on to have great potential. I’m afraid your points only benefit the wealthy who have the resources to score high and it disproportionately affects those marginalized communities in the long term.

[@Moefan1342]

It does, though. Harvard is implementing remedial math classes because the new classes cannot handle the rigor.

[@jessc.8557]

True, my kid went test-optional with a 1510 sat score.

[@JulieChang-o6p]

My kid didn’t submit at 1510 either for all highly selective schools

[@chessgeek10707]

I think Dartmouth is reverting back to SAT/ACT required. There is a Harvard study that came out recently showing that test-optional students in college are underperforming relative to the ones who had taken the standardized tests.

[@harrychu650]

Well done. Someone had to say it. 🎉

[@amysmith2535]

So if you have a white female student who gets a 1400 - 1450 and is therefore perhaps at the very low end of the 50th percentile (or below) do you submit or not submit the scores? It's optional, so what is best -- provide or don't provide? Will the schools still think that score is a sign of something they see as valuable or no?

[@K.huang7]

Does this mean submitting scores that are under the bottom 25% by like 30 points actually makes sense? Since they take more from the SAT pool and the old bottom 25% who get in through special circumstances just won’t submit their SAT score? Making the new bottom 25% an “average”?

[@sitaaron]

damn i just submitted my 1470 to all these colleges 😭, i thought it would be fine since im only slightly below the 25% mark.

[@sandrap.8268]

But if you don't submit, the school might assume that you have an 1100.

[@CollegeMeister]

While you still have a chance, submitting scores to a college at which your scores will be in the bottom 25% of accepted students is certainly skating on thin ice - especially for Regular Decision. Good luck!

[@sitaaron]

@@CollegeMeisterThank you! I just need the rest of my application to be that much better ig lol

[@theblipdude4399]

Damn, me too😭literally got 1470 too thinking I fell in the above average for most of my schools, now I'm just in doubt

[@sitaaron]

@@theblipdude4399 yeah I sent my 1470 to princeton, i looked at their common data set thinking their 25th percentile is 1500, and i was only 3 questions off so I should just send it.

[@veerpatel7975]

I’m applying to Columbia, if I had a 1430 would you recommend applying test optional?

[@PartyCrewCoolPAD]

There are approved answers to the test Then the test stop if you test out on fewer answered questions yes indeed all approved Results may vary

[@HA-uj8hh]

You cannot be serious with the operation thing. You had me until that. If someone did badly on their sat, gets in, earns good grades at that institution, goes to med school, does well there and becomes a surgeon I do not think that sat 8 years ago (if he has no experience) matters

[@21stcenturydadd]

Would you agree that all surgeons are the same? One is as good as the next? Or are some more talented?

[@HA-uj8hh]

Of course , but i do not think an sat taken before undergrad determines that. Ben Carlson had a low 90th percentile (1350) and he is highly regarded as one of the best. He did go to Yale. I think if you score super badly (below 1200) then you are not likely to succeed in pre med and get into med school. Even if you do, you won’t succeed in the med school. And you train as a surgeon and preform multiple surgeries all the time. Of course there are some bad ones, but an SAT score is the last thing I will think about before my surgery

[@JulieChang-o6p]

Likewise my son who got a 1510 didn’t submit his SAT scores to any highly selective schools.

[@darylecheazu1776]

jeez ngl when you put it this way this is wild it seems horrible 😭

[@CollegeMeister]

It's a sad reality.

[@HA-uj8hh]

I see where you are coming from, but I think it should remain optional for internationals. We do have national exams that everyone takes and that are grades by someone not from your school so I think that should be objective enough. We don’t have any teachers or counselors telling us about the SAT (which is the only one available in like 2 cities in my whole country) the system is also very different in that we have a schedule that does not allow for many Ec or tests (Average grade is a c) since our admission to college is purely based on grades. You have to average 100% to get into medicine for instance

[@hummus517]

What about AP classes? Do you think that AP teachers also give A’s easily. Would a high weighted GPA not be effective anymore in showing your academic ability?

[@CollegeMeister]

I depends on the school.

[@steveunderwood7208]

The AP test score isn't determined by the school. It's just as objective as the SAT score. That's the big whole in your argument. Colleges still see AP scores.

[@MasterlyRex8789]

AP exams of course would. They are even better than SAT/ACT.

[@walterli592]

Damn, comming in 🔥

[@thepetrillos]

All the book worms are sad now that colleges have to look at them outside of the numbers. Class rigor, GPA over 4 years (not a one day test), extracurriculars, personality, recommendations. Disqualifying an applicant simply because of one test has always been dumb. SAT should go away. There are a ton of factors to consider that make a student an asset to a school.

[@ognqski]

They went test optional to fill up colleges full of community organizers with zero academic potential.....colleges are so expensive and so communistic in most cases. The test optional came about during the DEI craziness which is beginning to abate, but they will find a way to keep up the charade.

[@CollegeMeister]

Communist countries have no middle class. America's 'elite' colleges are similarly bereft of middle class students these days. Though, communist countries have a very small exorbitantly rich class and a huge poor class. America's 'elite' colleges have a large cohort of rich students and significant minority of economically disadvantaged students.

[@dipankarghosh8495]

Follow MIT ... they now want SAT /ACT scores.

[@CollegeMeister]

I made another video about MIT vs. Caltech in which this was also discussed: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4acdIh8orCYbbssi=Abo-QmoqJ776m5Dw

[@darylecheazu1776]

mm this is interesting so what do you think the baseline SAT for computer science students for t20 admission

[@isaacfeinberg4623]

anything above 1500 is necessary these days to be competitive

[@MasterlyRex8789]

Since you are talking about top 20, math should be as close to 800/800 or 36/36 for ACT as possible.

[@Goodguy1ful]

I'm glad these schools have gone test optional. I think what these elite schools have found is looking at 4 years of HS students' GPA and rigor ( and levels of rec and essays and extracurriculars ) is much more valuable in predicting how well a student might or might not thrive if admitted than 3 or 4 hours spent taking a test. Admissions officers are very savvy and don't just look at a HS student's grades. What they look at is what classes were available at a given HS and how much students chose to challenge themselves by taking the most rigorous classes. Colleges have also now had 3 years of data to look at how students who didn't submit test scores starting in 2021 have fared -- and have found that they have been able to handle the rigor at Yale or Brown or whatever. The reality is these elite schools have not for some time been highly impressed by high test scores-- as they have tons of students who apply with great scores and grades. As for how dropping these tests as a requirement might affect American society as a whole -- I don't have that concern. I've never gone to a doctor or dentist in my life and inquired as to what their SAT or ACT scores were out of HS. My guess is if they got through four years of Yale, 8 to 10 more of med school and residencies .. and passed the medical boards, etc .. they must have some level of competency ... that wouldn't lessen my confidence in their abilities if I somehow learned they'd gotten 1390 on their SAT fifteen years prior when they were 17.

[@seanmclean7207]

the stats say otherwise

[@Goodguy1ful]

@@seanmclean7207 Which stats?

[@leealysia9965]

So sad. I totally get what you are saying.

[@alanpadgett3732]

Should I submit a 1460 to Stanford??

[@CollegeMeister]

There are too many variables at play in each student's application for me to provide expert personalized counseling via the comments section on KZbin. For one-on-one college admissions guidance, feel free to visit CollegeMeister.com to learn how you can work with me. With that stated, yet, for first-year Stanford students in Fall 2022, 49% of applicants submitted their SAT scores and 23% submitted their ACT scores. The middle 50% of SAT scores of accepted students who submitted scores were 1500 - 1570 (Math 770 - 800, EBRW 730 - 780). The middle 50% of ACT scores for students who submitted scores were 33 - 35 (Math 32 - 36, Reading 34 - 36, Science, 33 - 36, and English 35 - 36). Good luck.

[@discipleofgeopoliticks521]

​@CollegeMeister is a 34 ACT worth sending?

[@Sid-vz8rm]

ye should be top 50% everywhere

[@MasterlyRex8789]

Yes send it everywhere.

[@bongbongtravels6108]

I think Consultants like you are gaming the system. Thank god they get rid of it.

[@ReRe-hh5my]

The whole system is rigged

[@TheLauren1113]

True what happened to test score averages but there are also some amazing applicants out there that have lower standardized test scores with top GPAs in rigorous academic programs with phenomenal extracurriculars.

[@ksid0644]

Personally I did submit test optional for my applications this year, but I still reported my AP exam scores, and they are not removed from the commonapp when you select test optional for the ACT/SAT. The way I see it I am kind of half test optional because I specifically didn't submit my ACT but have supplemented it with other test scores that are better than my ACT ever was and are equally accredited (considering that the college board administers both AP and SAT exams). Any thoughts from anyone on this?

[@MasterlyRex8789]

That’s fine. AP’s are also standardized tests and are even better predictors than the SAT or ACT. Yale I believe recently became test required but allows AP exams to satisfy that condition. MIT and Yale have admitted that the SAT/ACT is far more important for students part of the low income/underprivileged group than it is for everyone else. I believe I’ve also heard that test optional made it that some people thought their scores weren’t high enough and mistakenly apply as test optional when in reality their score in their context only would have improved their application further.

[@abdeljabar6]

Yeah bro you had me lost when you started talking about the air traffic controller. If a guy is smart enough to go through all that and get the grades at that college I don’t give a fuck what he got on the SAT. You could’ve made a good argument but then you kept talking and sounded very elitist and weird.

[@mertkangtr]

the fact that university of transylvania exist lol

[@MicCheckMemoirs]

I disagree with what you have presented in this video.

[@sumanag]

Can you also include an explanation why you disagree?

[@MicCheckMemoirs]

@@sumanagit’s not like under resourced individuals have the opportunities to receive support/preparation for standardized testing as those from more affluent backgrounds, making it unfair. It’s not like those from more affluent backgrounds could just magically earn a 1500+ on the SAT if they were at the same disadvantages as those from under resourced backgrounds.

[@sumanag]

@@MicCheckMemoirs Thanks for explaining your view point