Testing Mediums vs Heavies. Is Armour Viable Now? Hoi4 Testing

Testing out armour and no armour on tanks to see if it is worth it following the mini armour rework. Can you make armour work or not? Their is no benefit to armour on tanks if you can't get that unpierced bonus, so is it possible or not?
Twitch.tv/71Cloak
[e-mail] for disaster saves. Maybe I will do some.

[@BlackHammer3]

While heavies are much more expensive than mediums you also need only 40 of them in the battalion instead of 50 mediums (or 60 lights). It is still more expensive of course, but somewhat mitigates the difference.

[@71Cloak]

The math to show the different division costs already takes that i to consideration.

[@Coecoo]

Tanks have not been remotely cost effective for the longest of time following their nerf a few years ago. They still get cucked by soft attack due to how piercing and hardness works, receive MASSIVE negative modifiers in basically 95% of all terrains, are insanely supply-intense, require lots of rare materials to make and often face reliability problems.

[@HungarianPatriotGaming]

Fewer but superior tanks usually fare better in low supply areas where a mediocre tank horde would get bogged down. On the other hand, this test doesn't take into account terrain modifiers, and considering that half of Europe consist of hills and mountains, that is actually quite a big issue.

[@Xeem_Pad]

Well, Europe doesn't consist of hills and mountains on half. And you don't have to push into them with tanks

[@71Cloak]

The important half of Europe is either plains or forests and a simple flame tank gets rid of that penalty.

[@Xeem_Pad]

@@71Cloak unfortunately, flame tanks were nerfed

[@71Cloak]

@@Xeem_Pad light flame tanks where nerfed. Medium flame tanks are just fine.

[@samuelwalrus7231]

Should i have medium flame tanks in my average division

[@TraitorsGambit]

Ive trended toward upshifted hvy tank destroyers with a super heavy cannon purely to guarantee a pierce. I dont think the damage output is higher than the upgraded AT but it will always pen for a signficantly more efficient research tree. As for heavys vs mediums, mediums feel really strong on broad fronts. Outside of testing, you need to up the speed of the heavy tanks signficantly to make them viable. However they are pillboxes. My theory is essentially we will go back to the fast light autocannon tank divisions and the heavy tank divisions with attached hvy TDs. Im trying to figure out if upshifted medium SPGs work but because heavy howizter is the final tech, it doesnt seem to make a whole lot of sense. Adding armour to infantry divisions has gotten a lot harder.

[@csantana1]

You have become my favorite HOI4 channel by a mile in no time man, love your videos and wish you great success

[@robertalaverdov8147]

Can you check how modern tanks do against heavies? I know they're risky to wait for. But as either Germany or the Soviets with their research bonuses. You can unlock the chassis by late 1940 early 1941. Also the US and maybe UK with their research speed boosts might have the option to get them by 1941.

[@kyallokytty]

and modern tanks are cheaper IC than heavies edit: I think, I said this from memory, maybe I designed cheaper modern tanks when I last tried

[@demrasnawla]

I'm sceptical about modern tanks due to the huge terrain penalties they get. If their stats are like 30% higher than heavies but they have like -30% terrain penalties and cost more then idk if they're worth it

[@robertalaverdov8147]

@@demrasnawla Modern tanks have the same stats as mediums except for amphibious where they're 10% better. Heavies have 10-20% worse terrain stats than either. With exception being forts where heavies have a special 10% bonus.

[@robertalaverdov8147]

​@@kyallokytty You're right. You can get a pretty decent modern tank for 14 IC vs 21 for a heavy with same stats on breakthrough and amour. Despite smaller battalion size of 40 vs 50. The modern tanks came out to 700 IC vs 840 for heavy.

[@71Cloak]

Modern tanks are quite the hassle. With the research bonuses you shouldn't be getting modern tanks until late 41 with tech juggling and hard researching from day 1. At which point you have to know make a new line and start swapping over because they don't count as either mediums or heavies. Otherwise you should be able to get the same armour value as heavy tanks but you can't put small cannons or heavy machine guns one them. This is pretty bad for their overall stats.

[@maciejkamil]

Thanks for info. I might use heavies to break through, and lights to create encirclement afterwards.

[@TheInfamousMrFox]

TONK time. And thank you, again, for doing the testing and the math we don't have the time or ability to.

[@kleinerprinz99]

Thanks for doing this test and calculation. That explained a lot and made it clearer to me why certains designs are the way they are. Or say why the current Meta is not only what the current meta is. :)

[@dave1702]

It seems like paradox is trying to push the NSB tank meta to be pretty similar to how it was before, with heavy tanks being the more meta choice with majors with industry to spare. It is nice that NSB added more granularity to the tank meta, but I'm a little disappointed that we're trending to a similar meta.

[@dragon12234]

Well, I mean, historically heavy tanks were more powerful than the others. Their big disadvantages were slow speed, difficulty to transport (which is why the US didn't do much Heavy Tanks) and much higher cost. As such they were mostly added to infantry formations (which in HoI IV is known as Space Marines) in order to boost their firepower. As they were usually too slow to keep up with the other tanks

[@MrNicoJac]

Why are you disappointed? Due to how stats work, there's always gonna be _some_ meta, right? So what does it matter what the meta is? (as long as it's not historically ridiculous)

[@sld1776]

I'm just going straight to Superheavies as White Russia, no messing around.

[@nxibba]

if u playing singleplayer u dont need superheavies

[@belgarath6508]

@@nxibba And theyre a iineffective in comp mp

[@kerotomas1]

I only use heavies when i play democratic france to defend the belgian border. The german lights and mediums can’t break infantry divisions with one or two heavy battalions attached to it.

[@oldpersonmc18yearold46]

you can get the same results with mediums.

[@guncolony]

People are gonna have to start using heavy TDs with the super heavy cannon to pierce 1943 heavies now

[@salvatorelucania9122]

but given the fact that they are expensive as a spaceship, they will obviously be few. maybe it will be easier to boost medium tanks with armor

[@ufuker5754]

1 super heavy with max armor adds 100 armor to division now it is insane you can have unpierceable infantery until 1943 tank destoroyers oh yeah it is better with tanks Light or medium

[@thomasjones3206]

looks like you either want mediums with no armor or heavies with max armor

[@Omen09]

mediums with no armor will get pierced by at infantry

[@muremuresen3725]

@@Omen09 only anti-tank inf can pierce them though. 35 amour is enough

[@Omen09]

@@muremuresen3725 depends if you play sp or mp then

[@thomasjones3206]

@@Omen09 so what. infantry dont have hard attack. Tanks are at least 80% hardness . most infantry wont pierce you anyways

[@thomasjones3206]

@@Omen09 why would it matter if you play sp. You can do anything in sp and make it work. It is too easy

[@eluc_s2510]

Whenever you do the UK vs France tests, do you take into consideration the core defense/attack modifier?

[@71Cloak]

I do typically try to set France to exactly 50 ws to try and prevent both desertions and benefits on core territory. 2% though isn't really going to make or break combats that are very close to start with though.

[@Bruh-ff2tw]

What do you mean by armor? Are you pumping the armor button? Or are you goin up from riveted to welded/cast?

[@SpyBehindYou]

could you compare templates with high breakthrough vs just investing hard in stats at the same reliability? You can design insane TDs as romania, I made one with 25 soft 44 hard 179 piercing (very overkill) and 143 armor at 96% reliability and 7.1 km/h, but 11 breakthrough. I've been wondering just how important breakthrough is and if I can beat normal tank templates with very low breakthrough on mine

[@PikaPilot]

looks like heavy tanks are back until PDX implements partial piercing mechanics

[@javierperalta7648]

I usually use medium tanks with a couple of heavy tanks just to increase armor and hard attack a bit. I like using a template that has 5 Mot/Mec battalions, 3 Medium tanks, 2 heavy tanks, and 2 medium SP Artillery (only in the late game when you already have the heavy howitzer, otherwise SP Artillery is kinda lame). Your templates look neat though, but I feel like they are kinda overkill

[@espen4330]

SP artillery is great, even with medium howitzers just because they have twice as much soft attack as any other battalion could have

[@captinobvious4705]

Execuse me if this question is a bit dumb but I just woke up Do the H.Tanks use the same guns as M.Tanks? because I feel like one of the main advantages of Heavies is the ability to use heavy cannons, or are the using the same gun purely to test armour?

[@12gark]

You can make medium TD to increase piercing in medium tank divisions

[@71Cloak]

Heavy tanks can use the improved heavy cannon. How is it a fair test to intentionally unbuild the heavy tank when everyone is going to use the heavy cannon. Nobody is going to put an improved medium cannon on a heavy tank.

[@captinobvious4705]

@@71Cloak thanks

[@niku4154]

What Mod are you using to make the Town Names readable?

[@fantastique2323]

show heavies design :shock:

[@bige2576]

I know this is weird but heavy tanks are such beasts. One click and you can take a tile.

[@arya.n.8252]

For single player 14-17 armor medium tanks are enough, the ai can't pierced it, but I'm yet to try heavy tank

[@Xeem_Pad]

14-17 is actually low even for Singleplayer. But 30-50 is usually enough. Also I tried heavies in singleplayer and they're not much better than mediums

[@arya.n.8252]

@@Xeem_Pad 14-17 in the point of armor not the value on the stat. I usually went 14 engine 14 armor

[@DarkMatterKid]

You’re almost never getting pierced in single player, the ai sucks so hard at making functional tanks. I’ve seen German tanks with 15 total armor on the division, and only like 20 piercing. Light tanks are honestly viable in single player cause the ai sucks so much with tanks.

[@wannabeinfamous8690]

Honestly around 70-90 armor is enough for single player

[@Leo-jf8ww]

AA gives 14 piercing if you put into an infantry division and german AI makes a lot of AA. You can see some AT guns here and there but that's it. You need to play with mods to have a need of more armor. I found it to be a really bad design TBH. I don't have NSB and with 1939 medium tank or 1941 light tank you already have enough. I don't even know, outside of flame tanks, if the DLC has a real utility. Maybe with some mods I guess.

[@tedarcher9120]

What if you put 1 superheavy into medium division?

[@baumbaum3924]

You should not argue too much on the Chassis, with high velocity 3 gun Medium tds with eventually squeeze bore can pierce everything apart from full armor superheavys which are way too expensive

[@71Cloak]

You can get unpiercable advanced heavy tanks with the current patch. The only reliable way to pierce that tank division is with a heavy tank destroyer using the super heavy gun.

[@kleinerprinz99]

So for Germany for Barbarossa how many tanks & tank division do you need? Is it even feasible to produce enough heavy tanks to replace the medium tanks for the long frontline? How micro heavy and intense are mediums and heavy tanks compared?

[@ryankolbe365]

So if you lose a 45 width heavy tank division with maybe like 1 medium spg to each heavy tank or however as long as hardness and breakthrough are sufficiently high, you basically have stalled out on that front for a that year, you should have at least 6 other divisions with lights, mediums and motorized attacking the surrounding area. You should have all your CAS concentrated on your heavy divisions since it is so expensive and the concept is that it is basically supposed to be invincible, but you'll inevitably be short somewhere in attack value. Your heavies will push along each railway connection to deprive the enemy of supply but you should also have a railway gun behind it to keep limit the enemy defense stats. You can and should periodically pull your heavy off if there's something important nearby like an airfield, supply depot or major city, but you should also be using lights and mediums to capture and achieve encirclements. This is really simple now

[@heythere2115]

Well, people tend to use tanks wrong. Ryan above gets it. You're supposed to use tanks for encirclements. Drive these straight at cities and supply depots or airfields, or use them to cut off the supply and railways or for holding enemy reinforcements in place. Heavy tanks in the middle and use them to push, light/medium tanks at the flanks, if you can. Light and medium tanks are great for when YOUR tanks get encircled and you have to quickly save them. People always just produce 100 tank divisions and just send them on a frontline... Never do this. The high supply drain, the resource and production cost, and the fuel and attrition losses from constantly shuffling troops is INSANE. Along with the fact that infantry, cavalry and motorised can do the same unconcentrated general frontline damage for much cheaper without the loss of any tanks. You only need as many tank divisions as you can micro, and make sure they never attack in mountains or without CAS and fighters, AA can mitigate the enemy air superiority bonus if your fighters are failing. I take about 10-24 tank divisions in total as any nation, this is as much as I can micro and it saves reserves if I lose tanks. I will use light and medium tanks for preventing encirclements against me and heavy tanks for pushing. I will use cavalry and motorised divisions to flood. I will also use superheavy tanks with infantry, although I understand a lot of multiplayer games ban these. Some templates more infantry sometimes more superheavy. Similarly, while it lowers the hardness, I will sometimes use cavalry with tanks depending on the speed and attrition and fuel. I kinda just edit templates on the fly. This is the problem with tanks... Micro. You have to shape tanks around what you are fighting. Sometimes against the USSR with all the rivers... People always forget that marines and amphibious tanks are designed for that. And this is the problem with these youtube channels, they just make the fattest tank divisions with too much support companies. If you're fighting in mountains and hills and jungle = less tanks, more motorised. If fighting in plains = more tanks and motorised, less infantry. And these templates can be edited on the fly! Hoe many tanks will you need? Literally, 100,000s. It's not a small, couple factories, kind of thing. You need stacks of factories on tanks if you wanna focus tanks and use them and enjoy them and keep them full strength. Which is why tanks kinda suck. Even with just 8 40 width tank divisions... You're gonna suffer a lot of tank losses, even if you use them properly. And make sure reliability is 100%! The most important thing in the recent updates. With light tanks, if you are at 80% reliability(which is usually the past standard), you are losing THOUSANDS of tanks just from driving around with high attrition, increasing this to 95-100% effectively half's the amount of attrition losses from 80%! Hence, spreading out tanks along a frontline is never a good idea. You will never get that satisfying tank crush over your enemy, so it's best not to even try and just use a handful of tanks.

[@feliperojas9860]

I think is it still more viable to use mediums at least in multiplayer since they are mor replaceable than heavys

[@nveronline2914]

I think its the opposite actually. In multiplayer cost does not matter as every country will have good macro. it makes most sense to focus on pure quality rather than on quantity. especially when you consider that 3 heavy tanks attacking any amount of mediums on a tile will always win due to the way armor, breakthrough and reinforcement work in this current version in the game. With the new changes in teh newest patch I think we will return to the old heavy tank meta.

[@echidona3327]

Interesting. Glad the heavy tanks are sorta viable now. Thanks for the Video

[@totoburke9583]

Are ya gonna unban me you know who I am.

[@iannoyed3684]

@@totoburke9583 told ya I'd be a few months

[@rochenmanta838]

it is pretty easy to pierce every tank. Just make 1 TD battalion per division and boom you piercing goes up to like 130

[@71Cloak]

Thos tank division had 4 tds with improved high velocity guns and a squeeze bore and couldn't pierce. Don't ignore that they just rebalance piercing and armour.

[@endsiegendsieg8971]

by 1940 it is impossible to pierce H tanks if you build the division right, with mechs, with a heavy focus on armor, by 40 you can have H tanks with 1k of each soft and hard attack, meds while faster just are not worth it in comparsion to H tanks, and when you combine this with the conversion strat, its even stronger for H tanks.

[@71Cloak]

Conversion strat is dead. You will never make more tanks with conversion strat. You might save a couple of resources though.

[@endsiegendsieg8971]

@@71Cloak as Germany when you need to save tungsten and chromium, from the math I’ve done having no resource H tanks and getting them half IC cost off is amazing, granted not a strong per day but total ic cost with saving those vital resources as Germany is clutch

[@thi.]

why the hell do you use gifs when showing the medium and heavy tanks in research

[@localman9063]

Heavy tanks are really expensive, so is it a good idea to design a really good and expensive heavy tank, then add 1 battalion of heavy tank to a medium tank division?

[@71Cloak]

You will be much easier to pierce if you do that. If you get pierced then all the ic you spent on trying not to get pierced gets thrown in the trash.

[@0witw047]

With your equivalent IC tests, why use more divisions, instead of using that IC on equipment that provides a buff to the same number of tank divisions? For example, why not use CAS? Given equivalent IC, the person using mediums would be a fool to use their cheaper tank costs to get more tanks, rather than to secure air superiority.

[@71Cloak]

1. Most people would take those cheaper tanks as an opportunity to spam out more divisions. 2. Even with 3 cheap mediums and 300 cas they don't reliably win when attack and are easily beat back when defending. The victory when attacking is actually more consistent with more tanks than with more cas.

[@mercdutch3950]

Is 30 width the tank meta? I remember hills being 90 combat width, is that why?

[@nxibba]

yes its either 30,42 or 40

[@Bae-oo7rf]

hills are 80

[@captaincapitalis1205]

I always do 30 to optimize the best locations for tanks to fight in.

[@iannoyed3684]

come to find out in horst they are

[@iannoyed3684]

to be fair ig its only worth to do as soviets it would be a lot harder to do as germany

[@echidona3327]

Heaby Tonk

[@gold__ore]

Can you make a guide on how to play as the usa?

[@71Cloak]

Already did.

[@aspielm759]

Interesting. Though I wonder, if this accurately represents what heavy tanks and medium tanks were in WW2

[@espen4330]

I think it will be a while until we have accurately represented ww2 combat in Hearts of Iron

[@kleinerprinz99]

Hoi4 is pure fantasy table calc simulator.

[@aspielm759]

@@kleinerprinz99 Hehehe, you've got a fair point. Interesting name btw. loved to watch that show as a kid

[@oscar1107]

Mediums Can just High velocity gun 125 piercing? Am i wrong? Also getting 1943 High velocity gun with 200 piercing for tank destroyers

[@71Cloak]

Piercing on the gun on the tank is not the same as piercing on the division.

[@FreeMan4096]

Single player enthusiast here. Still love me some medium tanks.

[@espen4330]

In single player No armour/low armour medium tanks are usually more than enough

[@nominatorchris5591]

Does He have a USSR guide?

[@71Cloak]

yes. it was from right after nsb came out though so USSR has gotten buffed since then and you can't go straight from light tanks to modern tanks anymore so you should probably just use mediums against the ai.

[@kova1870]

I really like the recent patch.

[@Romosol2012]

CAS don't care about armour?