Testing the Brush Gun Myth

Are brush guns just rifles that handle well in thick brush, or are they also better at shooting through brush? And why are brush guns so often associated with lever action rifles? Those are the questions we're tackling today as we continue our series on lever action rifles.
Check out the rest of the lever action series here: • Lever Action Rifles
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[@JACKBLACKTOSE]

Lesson: don’t shoot through a thing to hit a thing.

[@jb8086]

Exactly what I came here to say.

[@TheCowboyfromhell87]

Depends on how far the thing you are intending to hit is behind the thing you are shooting through. The farther the distance the more deflection.

[@mattmarzula]

That's the least practical advice one can give. Besides, that's how you get to the soft creamy center... Necessity dictates actions. I learned more shooting through things to hit other things than your nearsighted "lesson" could ever teach.

[@mattmarzula]

@@TheCowboyfromhell87 for me, it depends if it's shooting back. Otherwise, not a good idea. Too much collateral damage, paperwork, and penance.

[@bishopsteiner7134]

though in fairness, often seeing that twig between you and your target? Isn't always a thing. If you do know? For sure, you don't take the shot.

[@thenugget7288]

I think this is obvious... if wind is enough to change the impact of a bullet, why would any other thing touching it be different

[@Rebel1280]

How dare you use common sense, dont you know this is the internet?!

[@thewatcher611]

right, or why wouldn't a real object be totally worse than air?

[@RexKramerDangerSeeker]

"I think this is obvious..." could pretty much be said about any firearm video nowadays. People making videos "for science" but just shooting random shit; watermelons, sculpting clay, wood...This is on par with "you know how to not die in a plane crash? Don't ride in a plane" thing... This is common in the PC community here where folks compare random things to thermal paste and are shocked when it kinda works (as in it's better than nothing) but is still trash in comparison.

[@jmmartin7766]

@@RexKramerDangerSeeker I just like seeing the effects different barriers have on different rounds. Because, you just never know when you'll have to shoot through cinder blocks, milk jugs, sculpting clay, car doors, etc. in order to kill a communist... 🖒😎

[@james3414]

too much common sense, get out.

[@darrylricci1857]

From a hunters perspective, the term brush gun refers to a weapon's ability to be maneuvered and manipulated quickly in close quarter hunting scenarios. As you touched on, shorter barrels, but also heavier, slower rounds with good short range energy. Also, IMHO, brush guns should be iron sights, or at least very low magnification scopes with wide field of view. This is because in heavily wooded or brush areas, target acquisition needs to be fast. Love your stuff, huge fan!! Thanks

[@lessforloans]

Lpvo is low mag. As low as it gets

[@scottwilson1258]

35 Remington

[@chrisinvestigateschrisinve3249]

Same I use a sawed off 12 with slugs as a brush gun, loss of range is better than getting caught up in smilax vines by the balls.😂😂 I use a single shot as a brush gun. I use 45/70 Marlin in more open areas and 270 and 306 and 338 win mag in long wide areas.

[@scottleggejr]

@@chrisinvestigateschrisinve3249 Agree with all of it and smugly look down on people who deer hunt with .223 unless they're less than 10 years old.

[@rastus666]

If the brush is really heavy, often requiring use of both hands, a large caliber long barreled revolver is a good choice. My favorite was a Ruger Super Blackhawk with 10 5/8 inch barrel in 44 magnum.

[@alvarojm750]

Iv8888 tested this on actual heavy brush and it showed significantly better performance from flat nose rounds. This is showing barrier penetration more than anything else...

[@johnandrewserranogarcia7223]

While its true that heavier flat nosed projectiles showed LESS bullet deviation at the end of the day they still deviated somewhat, therefore, intentionally shooting through brush should be avoided. I'm glad some people remember that old video though.

[@brandonalsop1281]

in his attempt to disprove the myth he proved it, the brush gun calibers had significantly less deflection and destablisation and due to the heavier wieght of the caliber any loss in velocity wouldn't effect the impact on the target as much.

[@johnandrewserranogarcia7223]

@@brandonalsop1281, the key word in your statement is LESS. At the end of the day there was some bullet deviation anyway therefore one shouldn't shoot through brush if it can be avoided. Brush just reduces the chance of getting an ethical/vital shot.

[@johnandrewserranogarcia7223]

@Jonathan Spier, both videos also discuss whether it was ethical to rely on that or should one try and get a better shot.

[@johnandrewserranogarcia7223]

@Jonathan Spier, the myth was made by hunters trying to justify shooting through brush to kill their prey but sure man, if you're protecting something/someone then feel free to shoot through anything as long as you know where your target is and whats beyond it.

[@zachseeman5235]

5/8ths inch pine isn't exactly _brush_ I'd like to see the same performed with 1/8ths inch balsa to emulate actual twigs & _sunflower_ _stalks_

[@samuelbennett2600]

I agree! A flat consistent obstruction is very different from hitting a rhododendron twig.

[@DavidSmith-rf5je]

Or just use actual thick brush, and a lot of rounds. They aren't called wood strip guns.

[@traveler7155]

Agree with the other comments in that 5/8 inch pine slat fired flat on is NOT representative of brush. Anything being fired through that material will deflect unless perhaps it is a 50BMG. See the video from Iraqveteran8888 for a better definition and test of the so-called "brushgun". In addition, the 30-30 is generally considered to be a bit light for a brushgun, with the 35 Remington being more popular for that genre.

[@Kodiak6579]

This was more of a barrier penetration test than a brush busting test.

[@357Addict]

Maybe use a wood yardstick that is thinner and flat all of the way across the wood.

[@JohnDoe-wz6xi]

Stop this you're going to make me buy a lever gun. My wallet already hates me lol.

[@Basically_a_nobody]

Same except I can’t find any!

[@DavidM-um2uk]

I have 2, a Marlin .357 and a Browning .22. They're both so much fun to shoot. Do it! And lever actions can be affordable, as long as you're not looking at a Henry.

[@wyohorseman9948]

I really want a 45 70 lol

[@brenttuttle7268]

Do it! Love my Henry Big Boy 357

[@drearyerie8504]

I inherited grandads 3030 '94. It's my favourite rifle, but ive got a ross on its way as a challenger

[@Highgear145]

My Marlin 336 30-30 has always worked for me in any situation even across wide open areas, I can't understand why people think a 30-30 can't shoot in the open 🤨

[@permanenceaesthetic6545]

People are too easily susceptible to myths and hearsay. 30-30 has everything you need, and nothing you don’t (for 99.9% of applications) - especially in regards to my area.

[@corneliuscrewe677]

My Glenfield 30A will shoot half dollar size groups all day long at 150 yards.

[@johnyjohns4271]

Too big for squirrel

[@Highgear145]

@@johnyjohns4271 Only if you plan to eat it

[@permanenceaesthetic6545]

@@johnyjohns4271 Not if you shoot it in the head.

[@robertmcbride6931]

I was doing some varmint hunting 2 days ago, and took several shots at fairly close range through tall grass with a .222. Two out of three missed. I am fairly certain a 45-70 would have hit. When I think of 'brush' I am thinking there are some leaves or tall grass between me and the target, not limbs or boards. I have seen 22-250 bullets explode when shooting through willow leaves. 30-30's don't do that...

[@scottleggejr]

You nailed the point. All of these new rounds you see coming out are the product of nerds on keyboards doing models and playing with spreadsheets. I like Ron Spomer's channel for explaining this nerd shit, I'm a nerd too and enjoy the data. What he does is tells you where they fit in the stack of established rounds. What I *will* say is none of these new rounds have displaced any of the established classics sitting in the safe... If anything, I respect a .357 through a lever gun more than before after seeing a ballistics model. Would I buy a 300 blackout or another .357 which I already have? I'm going with the gun which has plenty of rounds on the shelf.

[@CFABN267]

If you shot through a short "field" of dowel rods, I think you would have a better representation. Testing various thicknesses and distances with each caliber would give even better data.

[@bencrane8505]

I concur. I think the curved nature of a round twig or dowel would lead to more deflection.

[@slowpokebr549]

I seem to remember that Guns and Ammo did a dowel rod based test back in the 80's.. Might have been Mike Ventirino? Ross Seyfried? I don't remember but it I do remember it was a pretty extensive test. I think that one of the better results was with round ball.

[@CFABN267]

@@slowpokebr549 What's old is new again 😁. I might check that out. Merry Christmas.

[@joshc578]

I agree. Another idea is to use your Christmas tree branches cut into bundles to represent "brush"

[@WideAwakeHuman]

Yeah I don't think his test was designed very well to test what he wanted to test

[@matthewfransen9447]

Enjoying the lever action series!

[@tonycollinsworth7393]

No but the heavier bullet will cause more destruction when I animal is hit

[@FloydofOz]

I always thought “brush gun” refers to a gun that is easy to handle walking through thick brush. For example a short carbine instead of a rifle with a 30 inch barrel.

[@apocalypticwarrior9695]

That is the real meaning behind the term. Unless your life is at risk you shouldn't blindly shot thru brush

[@SonOfTheDawn515]

Same

[@thekilomike6012]

I never heard it in that context when I grew up hunting. It was to be able to go through brush. The larger caliber would facilitate this. Kinda like the ones now that think "flat shooting" refers to no muzzle flip on firing.

[@eddieb9110]

Good to know if I'm ever in a pasture covered in dry 5/8" pine strips. How does one of those strips compare to the sunflower stalk?

[@MSchwartzNWV]

I've hunted nearly my whole life (38 years) in WV which is almost exclusively brush country. My favorite rifle is a Marlin lever action in Remington .35 with optics. I've read many but not all comments. I use the gun for both reasons stated here. It's short and easy to move with through the woods. I believe it also gives me my best opportunity for clean harvest should I miss seeing a stray twig in the target path. Honestly, even though I have other rifles, I don't have a lot of experience hunting with them. I depend on my .35 because it always gets the job done. I do know I get 75-150 yard shots, yes, through the woods. I don't take risky shots and have probably passed on shots I should have taken but didn't. Good video but I don't remember if you said how far the sapling was from your friend and the deer. A twig close to you but far from the target has much more impact on success than one close to the target. Stay safe y'all and happy hunting!

[@chuckhaggard1584]

It was about halfway between me and the deer.

[@davidscbirdsall]

I grew up shooting the same gun in the dense woods and swamps of Louisiana. It had a scope, but I found that using open sights in brush gave me more light in exchange for magnification. The rifle and it's ammunition were excellent for penetrating brush and not be knocked off course by much at those distances.

[@jakeMTSU]

also final energy at the the target "deer" would be much greater with a 35 or 4570 then a little 223 ... large caliber just buys you much more lee way for a harvest imo ... which he kinda mentions ... 1 in from center and a 4570 now doing 1300fps lets say... has a much better chance to kill the target then a 223 now at 1300 fps..

[@thejerk4478]

@@chuckhaggard1584 Chuck would you be willing to put in a request for a caliber review? 35 remington. If not that's fine I can keep sending comments

[@Etherman7]

That friend saying he hit a sunflower stalk and that's why he missed his mark would've been a much less convincing story without it still hitting the target, and that kinda says a lot about people and our willingness to believe others

[@rockitgamer]

Even given the seemingly obvious flaws in equating 5/8" wood strips to light, intervening brush, or occasional plant stalks between the shooter and the target, let's take the results actually found by the test and see if they are significant. I'd say that a consistent 2/3 LESS deflection rate from the 30/30 to the other rounds is something the take note of for sure. If the other rounds are deflecting by 4" consistently, while the typical 'brush gun round' is deflecting by less than 2" consistently, then you are certainly getting a measurably better result through 'brush' and the claims can be said to stand up, in my opinion.

[@hulbertparsons7396]

Don't forget, this is very close so the deflection could be more pronounced at a longer distance, or through multiple obstructions. But, it's more something to keep in mind than it is something to dissuade someone from using a brush gun.

[@spicyice3754]

@@hulbertparsons7396 The level of deflection from individual pieces probably also gets worse at range as the bullet loses speed and piercing power

[@Mike80528]

The rough holes from the Carbine calibers could simple be partial deformation of the soft nose. Other test have shown how sensitive Spitzers are to even *very light* obstacles. The intent isn't to be able to shoot through a BRANCH, but through leaves and very light twigs.

[@garrettbrown6627]

My thoughts as well, he left a lot of questions unanswered, and disappointed

[@professorpewpuew]

Growing up I thought brush guns were just fast handling rifles with iron sights meant for quick shots at close range. Didn't know it was a literal thing to shoot through brush. Seems to violate safety rules to me.

[@secretsquirrel4773]

I'm glad you are a grown up now. Hope this video help with that.

[@dough9512]

@@secretsquirrel4773 All Outdoors's comment seems to indicate to me that he wouldn't shoot thru brush as it was a safety issue. And this was while he was still young and WAY before he saw this video. Your comment seems to put him down, but it REALLY puts YOU in a bad light! And rightfully so. Too quick to a wrong conclusion! All Outdoors sounds to me like he has a good head on his shoulders, and has since his youth! Many of us are not so fortunate.

[@StringerNews1]

Yes, it seems that this video is confusing the purpose of blunt-tipped rounds used in tube magazines. In all reality, the shape had more to do with the state of the art of metallurgy and other technology at the time they were designed; a blunt tip didn't deform (or risk setting off the primer of an adjacent round) in a tube magazine, and offered slightly better round density inside the tube. There's no evidence that the _shape_ of a wadcutter slug deflects any better or worse, but my kin who served in Vietnam were partial to calibers with more _mass_ (and therefore inertia) because that inertia kept them more on course through foliage.

[@zenguru79]

Brush guns are for protection against dangerous animals charging at you through the brush at short distances.

[@wk3818]

No 'seems' to it. It violates safety rules to shoot at something you haven't visually identified. And for the dangerous game comments, if a Cape Buffalo or Grizzly Bear is charging you through brush. You are probably going to know it.

[@jonathanshiflet5450]

Just going to point out: 30/30 still hit 3 out of 3. The goal was to be able to shoot in the woods, which he covers well at about the 12 minute mark.

[@corneliuscrewe677]

My favorite gun is an old Glenfield 30A in .30/30. Best 100-150 yard shooter I’ve ever used.

[@peternorton5648]

Love the 30/30, an old lever gun is near and dear to my heart

[@corneliuscrewe677]

@@peternorton5648 Mine as well. My Dad had a Winchester ‘94 in .30/30 from the 30’s that belonged to my grandfather. It was supposed to go to me eventually, but someone decided to liberate it from Dad’s house. I prefer the Marlin action as a shooter, but I would have liked to have had that Winchester, too.

[@peternorton5648]

@@corneliuscrewe677 I hear that. Similarly I had a pre ‘64 Winchester 30/30 that I inherited from my father-in-law that ended up in someone else’s house too. Makes me angry every time I think about it. Anyway, Happy New Year to you!

[@corneliuscrewe677]

@@peternorton5648 ...and you as well.

[@pastorfred3460]

For all the safety patrols commenting...watch the whole video please. He clearly states he would never take a shot without a clear path to the animal, says hunters should consider better optics so they can make better decisions, says he doesn’t actually believe the marketing of these rifles was ever to encourage hunters to shoot through brush...watch the whole video...the video is about ballistics, trajectory, and WHY we shouldn’t shoot without a clear path...well done Lucky Gunner, as always!

[@DJRockford83]

Reminds me of that cop sniper who couldn't understand why his bullets weren't hitting the perp, he was hitting the wall in front of him but looking through the optic he thought he had it high enough to clear it

[@bakkencutter189]

Don't forget that the 'Brush Guns' ammo also is flat or rounded due to the fact it usually is loaded in a tube fed magazine. A pointed bullet could cause the ignition of the primer of the cartridge in front of it when the gun recoils.

[@nathanchandler18]

Its been tested quite a bit I believe and its not the case, I believe its more of a space saver than anything

[@blkfld7850]

Um no. That’s false.

[@nathanchandler18]

@@blkfld7850 well everything can happen, Just like your action can explode right in your face, but having pointed cartridges in your lever action rifle isn't going to explode every time you shoot it, it's more of a "once in a blue moon" occurrence under some pretty nasty recoil and fmj style projectiles

[@Bob5mith]

@@blkfld7850 It's much less likely than many say, but it's not completely wrong. Buffalo Bore uses small rifle primers in their 45-70 Magnum rounds because they had a problem with hard flat nose rounds setting off the round in front of it under hard recoil when the rounds angled just right.

[@jeanmorin3247]

I agree that there is a danger. The real probability of those pointed rounds hitting a primer too hard will not likely be due to recoil as much as dropping you gun from some height (perhaps a tree stand) at the precise angle, on something hard. The explosion of 4-5 rounds in the tubular charger would be quite nasty. I wouldn't take chances.

[@seanomeirs8362]

I went to the range on a windy day recently, and with a 40 mph headwind, I got vertical stringing with my AR.

[@nickterpstra6376]

This video is remarkably well made. Your post production skills have evolved nicely. Great work!

[@Leverguns50]

I’ve taking over 180 deer in the brush, when we say A brush gun generally talking about when deer stop, they generally stop behind a small piece of brush, therefore if the bullet struck anything it would be within 1 to 3’ of the deer and generally in one or 3 feet the bullet won’t stray much, in my test pointed bullets tend to deflect much more than flat nose bullets and I used about 15 to 20 pieces of brush for each bullet to impact, sometimes you have to shoot through the brush if you want to eat

[@SuperSaltydog77]

Agreed, 90% of my deer hunting is done in thick eastern woods. If you are waiting for "the perfect shot", meaning NO possible obstructions then you and your family are going to go without. How many people become idiots behind the wheel knowing an accident can happen but still choose to do so. Putting their family and other families at risk. Take the shot.

[@sophiefreshwater6040]

This is what I came to the comments to say. The "brush busting" part is the brush that is directly in front of the deer. Any brush between the hunter and the deer that is not within 30 feet of the deer can easily be avoided by the hunter side stepping before taking a shot when in ranges that these "brush guns" are designed for (25 - 125 yards). Also, the "brush" being talked about is the thin, latest new growth of junipers typical in the Eastern North American woods. Heavy flat nosed bullets are going to deflect a lot less than lighter pointed bullets.

[@Leverguns50]

@@sophiefreshwater6040 I agree

[@seanomeirs8362]

Thanks for your work on these videos. Greatly appreciated.

[@ssamuelt79]

Really digging the lever series!!

[@bigghoss762]

That Marlin Dark at the end with the LPVO looks cool as heck.

[@Matthew-zb3iw]

just missing an offset red dot and a light

[@Pavix1976]

That Marlin Dark is pure hotness.

[@rickterrance4981]

@@Matthew-zb3iw ew what the hell??? You shouldn't even have an offset red dot on anything let alone a nice lever gun.

[@alangastler9187]

Thank you so much for this lever action series

[@KCDarkRanger]

Having lived in both Missouri and Alaska, I have come to know two wildly different, yet valid definitions of what a "brush gun" is. In MO, most people mean something compact, light weight, with protected sights and positive chamber safety. Normally that means a lever action due to the easy decocking of the hammer and relatively save "live chamber". In AK, however, a brush gun is specifically something short with good iron sights that can stop at least a black bear with ok shot placement at short to close range. Aka a "bear thumper".

[@RAF71chingachgook]

Interesting tests. Thanks. My grandfather was an Adirondack guide. He took wealthy hunters (usually NYC people) into the thick foliage of the mountains to hunt. He'd get a chuckle at their invariable choice of 30-06. He used a 35 Marlin. Hunting deer in the Adirondacks was almost always close range and through brush. His claim was that the 35 worked much better through the brush than a 30-06 or even a 30-30. My father however had a different tactic. He used a 22LR and shot the dear in the head. As a teen my dad was a great hunter. His claim to fame was taking his shots at under 10' :p Ultimately my dad became USAF special opps. One more story. My dad (18yrs old at the time) ran down a large buck in deep snow (on skis). I've got a photo of it somewhere - my grandfather took the picture. He grabbed the deer by the antlers and pulled it down into the snow. The deer submitted and just kind of gave up. He spent a bit of time face to face with the deer. To my grandfather's dismay my dad let the deer go. My dad was affected by this event and never hunted again. My grandfather was not moved by it at all. Always a hunter.

[@louispoliskie7708]

Thank you for making this series. Hope everyone had a great and wonderful Christmas and a happy new year.

[@nocoastoutdoors4793]

Awesome video. The overall advice at the end is great. I hunt in the woods with a 22" .308. I've seen the results of other hunters having taken marginal shots with "brush guns" that resulted in having to track a wounded animal for hours. No caliber is magic. It's mostly about the Indian, not the arrow.

[@bencrane8505]

To get to the bottom of the brush gun history, we need to get Walter “Manny” Mansfield’s take on it.

[@chris.3711]

I'm a hunters ed instructor. Never in my ten years of teaching I have never once recommended shooting through an object. A brush gun is a short barreled, close to medium range rifle that allows for quick target acquisition, because in the thick woods of western Montana where I hunt. They're there then gone.

[@Anonymous_________]

I see you have 2.6 stars on Yelp.

[@sisleymichael]

Chris, I have had too many discussions about this all my life. You nailed it. You should have a clear path to the target.

[@tubularfrog]

Another reason for the truncated end of the heavier rounds is that they're used in tubular magazines, and the nose of the slug is pressed up against the primer of the next round. The thought was that they're less likely to cause a discharge from the recoil. Superb analysis of the data and experimental evidence in examining this subject. Merry Christmas!

[@TheBamidd]

Good video, interesting concept. While I generally agree that the concept of a "brush busting caliber" is moot, it is definitely true that heavier projectiles will be acted upon less by general brush. In this test you're shooting through a solid board. Even knowing that the board is not going to be completely uniform by means of density and makeup, the projectile is still being acted upon on all sides by the board as it passes through. However, if a projectile were to just nick the edge of the board to where it was only acting on say 50% of the surface area of the projectile, I would bet you would see your lighter projectiles deviate much further than heavier projectiles. At least my understanding of physics would imply so as the heavier projectile only being acted on on a single side would have more mass to exert it's own inertial forces against the edge of the board. Basically, the heavier an object is the hard it is to accelerate, decelerate, or change its direction.

[@Bob5mith]

And 300 grains is light for 45-70. I think a hardcast flat nose would be the most likely to cut through light vegetation with little deflection, for the same reasons they're used for dangerous game.

[@StringerNews1]

That's because heaviness is a function of mass and gravitational pull. Inertia is a function of mass and velocity. So it's not the _shape_ that creates inertia, it's mass.

[@TheBamidd]

@@StringerNews1 I'm fairly certain you either misunderstood my point or are just restating it. I'm aware of what inertia is and its relationship to mass and velocity. However, as to the point of this video, if a small portion of the object in motion is acted upon then the inertia in that portion is all that is directly disrupted, causing tumbling or yaw as the connective forces within the object cause slowing and pulling on the portion unaffected by said barrier. However, an object of greater mass would maintain that energy better while being in contact with this partial area of friction and would therefore maintain a course closer to its original path, in general. Velocity would also play into it as well as the materials of which the moving object and barrier are made up of. But as a general observation, with a projectile striking a small piece of wood such as a thin branch or twig at a glancing point, a heavier projectile will be deviated much less than a lighter projectile.

[@StringerNews1]

@@TheBamidd sorry but it's you who seems to misunderstand now. If an object in motion changes path after a collision, it's not because it lost energy, it's because its energy was directed in another direction. The elastic collision is literally Physics 101. You could have a projectile of infinite mass, and if we ignored the fact that it would never accelerate to leave the barrel, a collision with _any_ mass would indeed alter its path. The moral of the story is not to use black holes as bullets, it's that you shouldn't try to make bank shots with guns.

[@TheBamidd]

@@StringerNews1 the object in motion itself has indeed lost energy. If it comes into contact with anything else, a portion of the inertial energy is transferred into whatever it comes into contact with. And that is physics 101. The law of conservation of energy states the energy is not lost, which is true within the total system, but that energy can be transferred. In this case it is transferred into the colliding object. Hell, a projectile in motion in the environment if our planet will transfer energy into its environment in the form of heat naturally over the course if its flight due to drag. Impact with an object causes a sudden transfer of inherent energy in a portion of the object. Look at it this way: if you had a model plane balanced and suspended from a string and you pushed on one wing, it would rotate to that side rather than being pushed directly backwards right? That would be because you are imparting a force, and therefore energy, on single point of the object which is not equally distributed across the entirety of the object. And thus, rotation.

[@timrose6152]

I was told that the bullet shape was to prevent the accidentally setting off the next round due to the tubular magazine, pointy tip to primer. True ?

[@peternorton5648]

True to my knowledge anyway

[@rhyswilson7806]

That's what I've always heard, but I did also watch a Mythbuster's video (or something similar) where they tried to make that happen and were unable to.

[@sammiches6859]

The bullets were upsized revolver bullets which were flat or round to cycle in a cylinder. It also made more sense for capacity since you'd fit fewer Spitzer bullets in a tube. Weapons designers of the time were not as concerned about safety unless there were common cases and demand for change. The lack of a transfer bar on the old single action revolvers and lever gun are proof, because a little bump on a loaded chamber was way more likely than Spitzers setting each other off in a tube.

[@codyopperman5930]

I have a marlin 1895 GBL. It has a 6+1 tube. But I've recently switched to hornady "leverevolution" ammo due to the big coof ammo shortage. And they have plastic tip points. It is still a 6+1, but it's a pain to load it. Need to use another round to get the last cartridge in if I know I am going to be in a spot with lots of deer.

[@bradhaines3142]

it takes a spring loaded hammer to set off the primer to begin with, so that only might be an issue after being dropped

[@colerumford8480]

Hey Lucky Gunner team, loving the videos. Chris is a great host and I very much appreciate the quality of the content you guys produce.

[@samb8996]

Very nice review Chris - thank you for posting

[@cympimpin20]

I love that your intro clip is so short and simple.

[@viewatyourownrisk]

This is a great test, and that first round of 45-70 that nicked the barrier is the most telling. My money is that the most deflection would be found when a bullet in flight hits the edge of a barrier. The asymmetrical effect on the external ballistics would cause the most exaggerated deviation. That said, a test like that sounds like it'd be an exercise in frustration to get it done as the margin of error is as little as .224"

[@chuckhaggard1584]

As you note, uneven forces on the bullet make things more random.

[@user-tb6hm7dq2n]

Good video, got a chuckle out of it. Heard plenty of stories of shots thrown off by blades of grass, bullet mass definitely a major factor. Very well done

[@markg1291]

Always enjoy your videos. There is always lots of great info and interesting perspectives to consider

[@redsky8509]

years ago, I think it was Berretta that made a move on what happens when you shoot through brush. Wish I still had it. They pretty much showed that a "brush" busting bullet simply does not exist.

[@mhardy006]

It's "brush busting" not tree busting. I would have used balsa wood instead of pine. If you have a significant limb in your way you're going to adjust your aim.

[@shj2000]

Always good stuff Chris. Thanks. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours!

[@christoherhenninger6401]

Great advice, thanks! Merry Christmas!

[@sivispacem1]

Iraqveteran8888 did a nice part 1 and 2 few years back!

[@borkwoof696]

Happy Holidays, everyone!

[@chrisbellard6782]

You too

[@bodinian]

Same to you

[@2nd_a_dad4791]

Merry Christmas, Chris. I’m really enjoying this series, since I mostly hunt these NE Georgia woods using lever action Marlins

[@erikjensen6503]

Great points! Thanks for the videos! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

[@rogerrains5131]

This was a good experiment, the only thing I didn't like about the test is that the wood sticks had a flat surface that was placed perpendicular to the bullets flight path, you could add another variable by using round dowel rods or angling the flat strips that you already have.

[@ozzymandius666]

Or you could fire a bunch of rounds through, you know, actual brush. Larger, slower, flatter-nosed bullets do better through brush than fast spitzers. Its a fact, and this experiment proved it, once again. In many heavily wooded places, one doesn't have time to use a scope and line up on the target, that's why peep sights are so common on brush guns. Also, a simple leaf will deflect a light, fast moving spitzer much more than a round or flat nosed brush gun bullet. Iraq veteran 8888 does some pretty comprehensive testing of many more calibers: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hmbHp5htq6aMb6s

[@swnorcraft7971]

The shot that clipped the edge of the wood already showed what would happen if the bullet hit the radius of a twig or stick......greater amount of deflection.

[@teeroux]

The soft nose rounds likely also deformed in addition to yawing. Try looking up the Buick o truth for pistol caliber test on windshields. Slow heavy always shows less deviation.

[@kentwilliams4152]

Francis E. Sell in his book, “Advanced Deer Hunting” did exhaustive test shooting through brush and Alders. The results are quite interesting. The winners were cartridges with a muzzle velocity of between 2100 and 2500 feet per second. Some examples are: 30-30, .300 Savage, .30-40 Krag, .444 Marlin. There are a number of new cartridges that fall into that velocity range such as the .350 Legend. Very interesting 🤔.

[@1marmith1]

Hands down the best gun related channel on KZbin. Thankyou Sir.

[@nickharris8304]

You should have shot dowels since that would more accurately represent the round shaoe of most branches and brush reeds. Theres a big difference in penetration capability and deflection resistance

[@mastermonster195able]

This is what I was thinking as he showed the flat strips.

[@rustybayonetcom]

The deer died, tree branches are rounded and move. My favorite brush gun is the 12 ga. Slug and my ar style 450 bsm.

[@Jonnydeerhunter]

Ditto

[@chuckhaggard1584]

I think you missed the point.

[@rustybayonetcom]

@@chuckhaggard1584 No, test is flawed.

[@chuckhaggard1584]

@@rustybayonetcom test is fine, your logic is flawed.

[@rustybayonetcom]

@@chuckhaggard1584 please explain?

[@cdmajesty4803]

About two decades ago I remember reading in one of the major hunting publication magazines that a standard high-powered bottleneck rifle cartridge, such as the 30-06, was a better platform to actually go through brush than the standard commonly believed cartridges such as the 30-30 or 45-70.

[@zogger5281]

Nice video with great info. Thanks! Merry Christmas!

[@krombopulousmichael8418]

Dude, the reason why lever calibers are flat noses is so the bullets won’t touch off the primer on the bullet in front of it in the magazine tube.

[@elephantman2854]

Dood, ofc buts he's talking about how that is thought to help with brush

[@fairfighterm]

I would advise to test 12 gauge steel or brass slugs, kind of wadcutter profile. For example, DDupleks Monolit. They are advertised to cut brush, it would be really interesting to see in comparison to rifles.

[@rednuts420]

Made a couple magazine purchases from lucky gunner, worked out well and made it here in no time!

[@MrEpeeFencer]

It's always been about handling well in thick brush. I remember growing up reading stacks of old hunting magazines, dating all the way back to the early 30's that had been passed down from my grandfather to my dad then to me. The topic of brush guns would come up every so often, and it was always about lightweight carbines that carried well in dense brush. I think the myth of "shooting through brush" came from a few advertisements about "brush busting" bullets. The old timers really knew their stuff and there was multiple articles about not shooting through brush. There was even an article where they shot through a raspberry bush at a target to demonstrate the effects of brush on bullets.

[@wizardofahhhs759]

To me personally the definition of a brush gun would be a rifle that's only effective at less than 100yds. Not a long range rifle like a .243 or something.

[@chadvalliere8697]

And short

[@remingtonwendt7756]

@@HutchCA guess you never hunted in a state where you are required to wear 50% blazed orange🤷‍♂️

[@LifeisGood762]

Tree branches aren't planed planks of wood. The shot that best represents actual field conditions is the shot on the edge of the board with the .45-70, and that does it poorly. The idea of a brush gun isn't to shoot through 5/8ths inch of wood, you're trying to shoot around the trees and branches. The idea of the brush gun is to give an edge while shooting though the inevitable tangle of twigs in thick brush that you can't even see while taking the shot. Go hunting in the woods where you can't see 50 yards for the brush and this concept becomes obvious.

[@mountainhobo]

"The idea of the brush gun is to give an edge while shooting though the inevitable tangle of twigs in thick brush"

[@bpcantizani]

But i think the concept is the same, If the bullet is made of soft metal, like lead, It Will have some kind of deformation when It hit the branch, or any other material, and the caliber wouldn't change much either, because the deformation would happen anyways

[@bpcantizani]

The better solution, in my mind, would be using FMJ rounds

[@jameschristensen1055]

@@bpcantizani FMJ is unlawful for hunting in every jurisdiction I know of.

[@bpcantizani]

@@jameschristensen1055 Oh, my bad then, i'm not from the USA, so there are many specifications that i do not know. But i get why it would be bad to use FMJ for hunting, many accidents could happen

[@infini1970]

Very interesting. Appreciate these details.

[@ronaldjohnston7989]

Brilliant...as expected. Thank you.

[@Rooster-fo7lg]

When I think brush gun, I think of shooting through a collection of small twigs/sticks. Not sure this captures that, but nonetheless I like your videos.

[@JackBlack-lq4ir]

You should do this same test with a slow motion camera. It would be cool to see.

[@mentorofarisia371]

Another superior video. Great job!

[@mikeratkowski3506]

Absolutely one of the best channels ever!

[@thepinkerton657]

3 years ago I shot through a 2" sappling, not on purpose, and heart slapped a nice 6 point at 40 yards. Was using a 44mag out of an 18" barrel. I've spent this entire time thinking it was the ammo, now I'm thinking it was just luck.

[@hurrikaneiii]

Should have used round dows to see how much deflection.

[@68Lima]

Iraq veteran 8888 had two videos also testing this. They tested quite a few calibers. Their tests suggested big and slow non-spitzer design worked better.

[@petersellers9944]

Great presentation. I always appreciate your knowledge and rational thought process.

[@havoc1zero]

Makes sense that most of those studies occurred during and right after Vietnam.

[@jeflarremore7170]

So, Newton's first law of motion is still true ... every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force.

[@secretsquirrel4773]

This right here!

[@unclestone8406]

Not only is Newton still the Deadliest Sonovabitch In The Galaxy, he's a sane hunter's best friend. At a certain point, a dude shooting through brush isn't hunting, he's playing freaking billiards.

[@StringerNews1]

Exactly. Don't try to play pool with firearms.

[@qwedsawsqwwwww]

Meaning a 30 30 would shoot better through sticks than a .22 woooooooooow :D

[@tankerd1847]

This debate is more in regards to Newton's 2nd law, in that greater mass requires more force to accelerate.

[@ditzylemmon5094]

Your videos do so well capturing not only the mechanics but also the spirit of these ideas. Your summary on this perfectly nails the brush gun idea.

[@ktr1024]

Love the series!

[@dougkrultz2149]

the strips are on the thick end of a branch or something that would cause a deflection, as you said if something that thick is in the way of the target, it may not be an ethical shot. but I do get you already having them handy and repeatable. however next time I would place the strips at a 45-60 degree angle. a non straight impact on a barrier may cause more deflection. would be interesting to see if hitting a barrier straight on or at an angle changes the flight path significantly.

[@Bob5mith]

I'm not convinced that sunflower stalk would've had as much effect on a 430 grain flat nose hardcast at >1500 fps.

[@matthaught4707]

I'm of the opinion that a 'brush gun' is shorter, lighter, and handier in thick cover than a longer open field/plains rifle, and you can get away with a steeper-trajectory cartridge because the ranges will be short. Nothing to do with resisting bullet deflection.

[@chuckhaggard1584]

In my travels I've found some people think it's both.

[@toddvolpe6396]

Brilliant conclusion, really. A simple yet good surrogate variable test method.

[@hillbillyscholar8126]

Excellent as usual. Thank you.

[@williambelfroid2797]

I would be curious to see the test repeated with a 35 Remington, or 45-70 loaded with hard-cast lead, shooting through brush rather than flat dry wood. Seems like a better test.

[@bigviper64]

I would guess (common sense) that any kind of “deflection” would do just that..deflect. Like you said, hitting anything on its way to the target will destabilize the bullet and from there on, its anyones guess..it would also have something to do with the distance between the twig/branch and the final target..the further the target is from the deflection, the more distance the deflection. A branch closer to the target may not be that big of a deal, however if that branch is closer to the shooter, you might miss the target all together!

[@jeanmorin3247]

Yep!

[@mantzbrinkman4780]

Surprising results. Thanks for this experiment. You have made my opinion much more gray in terms of the effectiveness of the ability of a brush gun to deflect less if it hits an obstacle obstruction on the way to the target.

[@AnyDayNow360]

Appreciate your approach!

[@kennywolfjr.6413]

Anecdotal I know but I was hunting with my father when I was a child in the hills of West By God Virginia. We snuck up on a pretty nice buck who was chasing his does. My father took his opportunity, shot the 12 gauge slug. What he didn't notice was the large vine in the way, threw the slug off course, and the wad following behind smacked the deer. We had thought we hit because of the Deers actions. But we looked, and no blood, no hair, and a little flatter than usual wad. I saw the chunk out of the vine and we figured out. A long winded way to say I agree, don't shoot through things to shoot things.

[@projectsdonepoorly1383]

My brush guns is a .50 BMG-works well,punches through mild vegetation and usually drops my prey on the 1st shot

[@secretsquirrel4773]

Usually?

[@fastec5]

Lmao, prolly dropping Moose through a full size pine tree

[@dough9512]

I'm sure you are kidding! There could be a cabin on the other side of that heavy brush. Or your hunting buddy.

[@gomimaninoakland]

you still have prey after you hit it with 50 BMG especially deer?

[@projectsdonepoorly1383]

@@gomimaninoakland yeah, skins, quarters and kills it all in one shot

[@glenkilgore1524]

My 30-30 is my favorite rifle. Open sights. I've had almost every common caliber and its still the one I would grab in any situation.

[@todddavis2683]

Man, you do good work. Thanks for this.

[@shred1894]

So what you're saying is the Desert Tech MDR in .308 would be a perfect modern brush gun? It did appear that the heavier cartridges had more predictable deflection than the .223.

[@redpyro911]

Personally I find buckhorn sites accurate and easier to use than other types.

[@Taurcan]

A well done video with a well spoken, knowledgable investigator.👍

[@jamesmooney5348]

Talked with the owner of HAWK bullets. He said they all get deflected no matter how big, heavy and slow. But the typical brush gun cartridges mention, which he also metronidazole, did do a little better then non-traditional brush cartridges.

[@maxcactus7]

Heck, the SlowMo Guys confirmed that a watermelon can deflect a full on tank round significantly!

[@luckyjordan8139]

Back in my navy days, we never noticed any deflection of our 16” gun rounds..... btw how many grains is 3200lbs?

[@Hornet135]

7000 grains in a pound

[@Gunners_Mate_Guns]

The heavier of the two main projectiles (the AP) doesn't weigh 3200 lbs. It's 2750 lbs, so its weight in grains is 19250000.

[@robertmcbride6931]

I believe you had to deal with the deflection of the earths curvature and rotation though...

[@Gunners_Mate_Guns]

@@robertmcbride6931 Actually, you're not stretching the truth one bit. I was a Gunner's Mate (Guns) in the navy, and our gun had a range of 12 nautical miles (15 statute miles), and our Fire Controlmen had to compensate for those two factors when we fired our own 5"/54 caliber gun. The 16"/50 caliber guns on the battleships could go out to over 23 statute miles.

[@BiscuitWaite]

@@Gunners_Mate_Guns When ever I want to give my Army cannon cockers shit, I just ask them if they can throw a Volkswagen. My ship ( the Worden) was near the Wisconsin when she fired a fire mission. I think my spleen switched places with my liver and we were 2000yds out.

[@worsel2113]

Another informative, unbiased report.

[@blackbirdpie217]

I think you should use the center of your clear shot group to measure the "brush" shot group from. In other words if your gun is shooting clear of obstacles an inch low on average, then use the inch low point to determine how far off the other groups are. But when hunting you want to make sure you have a clear shot. I think a good brush gun might be better defined as a carbine or short barrel rifle just to be handy and light in the woods. But this is interesting just because it's been an argument for so long.