tf2's hitboxes have gaps

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big thanks to: Mustache for their contributions in research
old title:
"tf2's hitboxes have gaps in them; you can shoot through someone"
FAQ:
Q: How did you make that? What editing software do you use?
A: I use Adobe Photoshop, Premiere Pro & After Effects. Photoshop for image editing and thumbnails. Premiere Pro for compositing and After Effects for motion graphics (the fancy animations).

[@shounic]

edit: bonus for those who asked - if there was someone unfortunate enough to be between the gaps: twitter.com/shoun1c/status/1428538550518222848 heya. just so you all know, the hitbox display command i used in this video isn't available in live tf2 (the currently publicly available version of tf2) since 2010 --> wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/May_20,_2010_Patch (last bullet point). since the source code leaked, we can re-enable the command. unfortunately i don't think it's a good idea to risk being sued for distributing their code and copyrighted materials so i'm not going to upload a edited copy of tf2 lol

[@cielros]

ok

[@hoodcate]

Darn

[@yaelwhitson780]

Shounic we love you please don’t go to jail

[@deirasjankauskas3381]

I wanderer how many spy's and other classes have lived because of this

[@user-mz6wb]

hitbox momento

[@PNolandS]

I can’t imagine spy checking an enemy spy in disguise, seeing your shot pass right through him, giving him the all clear, and then immediately seeing him backstab you or a teammate.

[@Jebu911]

must have happened a few times

[@laziness6641]

@@Jebu911 I ran through a sniper shot once, so that felt... fun

[@kindalangueza]

[@iamafuckingfailure]

@@kindalangueza what

[@topatanimations]

i havent played tf2 but i would think that spy is a hacker

[@NotSmartAmber]

"I didn't miss! My shot just went through him!"

[@NekkiNosra07]

"Isn't that.... The point of shooting him?"

[@NotSmartAmber]

@@NekkiNosra07 yes but no

[@recurvestickerdragon]

Further limiting how well shotguns perform from how they SHOULD perform

[@NickIvanRowan]

Thats a good excuse

[@chewtag]

nice profile pic

[@bass-dc9175]

My assumption would be: The Hitboxes where made while the characters where in T-Pose. As soon as additional rotation is applied to the bones, gaps open up.

[@thebruhmachine2955]

Momongus

[@llucllumador380]

That is absolutely what happened. I wonder why do they need 3 different hitboxes for the chest, with 1 big hitbox this problem would be avoided

[@maximgeldon]

@@llucllumador380 you cant bend a 1 big hitbox ...

[@llucllumador380]

@@maximgeldon well I don't think you need to... it's not like the characters bend that much that it would be a problem. Funny that they would be worried about the hitbox precision to the point of needed multiple to simulate bending and yet they fucking leave gaps between the different hitboxes. If bending is absolutely needed then the simple solution I guess is to overlap the different hitboxes to cover for the rotation.

[@mofynn]

@@llucllumador380 to big hitboxes are a way more noticable problem. And people are more likely annoyed by it even though it's less problematic from a gameplay perspective.

[@meeyatttA]

engineer is so intelligent, he went to half life model viewer and shortened his hitboxes

[@Pumpkinsmasherok]

You better start praying boy cause I'm a god

[@xdskiller3509]

But now he cant use his hands because he has no hit box and he will fall in to the void

[@VentA_7]

@@xdskiller3509 his feet still had hit boxes, so he won’t fall through the floor, the other part you said is true tho

[@ceoofcomedy3009]

the virgin making your hitboxes smaller vs the chad deleting them

[@theoriginal7144]

"engineer gaming"

[@drahprub7750]

Looks like spy has no heart canonically, as he takes no damage when shot at it

[@Thispersonisreal]

looks he doesnt canonically have lungs either

[@lowcostfish]

@@Thispersonisreal how else would he survive the constant smoking?

[@benjaminoechsli1941]

@@lowcostfish _After the surgery_ "Thank you, doctor." *lights cigarette

[@epicredhot5675]

hearts, or lungs?

[@mugiwaradarwin4504]

*He's a heartless wretch.*

[@andrewrobotbuilder]

As someone with an average KDA of 1-367-2, this just proves how good I actually am. I just aim right between the boxes

[@kazinur]

Hahaha 😂

[@Wrsfts]

I'm too stupid to understand this

[@ili5207]

@@Wrsfts he's good at aiming between the hitboxes

[@andrewrobotbuilder]

@@Wrsfts KDA refers to your Kills, Deaths and Assists, terms used to describe your performance in a game matching to the numbers. High amount of kills and assists? You're great. High deaths? Not so much. So I've made the argument that my reason for my high deaths is due to my top-notch accuracy and not to me sucking harder than Lana Rhoades

[@xatlaswolf2339]

@@Wrsfts 1 kill, 367 deaths and 2 assists.

[@mFilipe20]

Is this it? Is this them finally outsmarting bullet?

[@johnnotsena9171]

My God.......

[@davisdf3064]

New TF2 hack, Sniper bots now have no hitbox, they finally outsmarted boolet

[@bottle7128]

@@johnnotsena9171 There's more.

[@johnnotsena9171]

@@bottle7128 No!....

[@mrfrogman9559]

*boolet

[@SolarLight]

technically a demoknight buff

[@zacheurittz9865]

teamoknight df2

[@TextualDeviant]

Because why bother with a bunch of existing, playermodel-synchronized hitboxes when you can just make a huge ridiculous hitbox and call it a day.

[@UniQwer]

another win for the demoknight team fortress two

[@WINDOWS-ke1ic]

E

[@TheDrunkenGunsmith]

demoknight tf2

[@thatkidinvr9501]

Imagine how many ''I LITERALLY HIT HIM''s this has caused

[@jackuval9362]

I'd wager quite a few on Engineer and Spy, those are _quite_ egregious

[@kujokage4611]

@@jackuval9362 use normal words pls

[@jackuval9362]

@@kujokage4611 I HATE doing that

[@bananafone1414]

@@jackuval9362 that's not _quite_ egregious of you.

[@goatmagnum]

@@kujokage4611 egregious is a normal word

[@Mantafirefly]

Real marksmen: "Aim for centre of mass" TF2: "Uhh, about that...."

[@xdskiller3509]

You mean The lucksman

[@its_o9ine613]

I wonder when someone says”oh but the huntsman shares a hit box for all the 9 classes

[@PsychadelicoDuck]

You fool! You aimed for my heart, the one place I cannot be hurt!

[@LARAUJO_0]

I've never heard anyone say to aim for people's belly buttons

[@dustinjames1268]

@@LARAUJO_0 In almost any training for weaponry, you're taught to aim for center of mass because it reduces the chance of missing aswell as the chance of hitting bystanders Police training you're taught to shoot arms and legs when possible and centre mass when there's the possibility of bystanders being hit

[@JiJ1511]

I like thinking that Scout has blood pumping through his backpack now.

[@cryosthesia77k69]

I stole this joke, but it's a tumor

[@Technotoadnotafrog]

It's his phylactery

[@JohnSmith-ex8iw]

@@Technotoadnotafrog Scout is a centuries-old lich confirmed?

[@Sav3_St4te]

It's Archimedes

[@silentmayan5427]

You sat that as if you dont

[@LoveSickWorld]

So maybe, at least one of those times, when you call out "BUT I SHOT HIM" you just may have threaded through the hit boxes

[@vinnyandlin8510]

"How the fuck did that not register as a hit?"

[@laziness6641]

So all my time as spy? Good, I'll be going back to other classes

[@defalttheloner]

So one could end up being too precise? Totally suffering from success moment here

[@LoveSickWorld]

@@defalttheloner To reach perfection, and denied a victory, is this our fate?

[@defalttheloner]

@@LoveSickWorld the better you play the least fun you have...we are dammed and deny that it seems

[@KimFareseed]

Engi used to not have a pelvis hitbox. So, I am not too suprized.

[@HOTD108_]

Used to? Why'd they remove it?

[@KimFareseed]

@@HOTD108_ The reverse. It got added.

[@alexanderharrison7421]

@@KimFareseed I remember a time when people made jokes about shooting engi in the dick and him being completely unphased

[@unnoticed4571]

@@alexanderharrison7421 My memory has suddenly sparked and I remember all of that Imma go see if I can find any videos of it

[@cursed_cats5710]

@@alexanderharrison7421 Femgineer Gaming

[@hoonterofhoonters6588]

I remember back when CSGO got its updated, accurately placed hit bubbles to replace its old boxes and I naively thought that TF2 would get the same treatment.

[@fernandonepomuceno7148]

Sad but true

[@rachelslur8729]

sad

[@rachelslur8729]

also they're called capsules

[@ValentineC137]

@@rachelslur8729 beans

[@МаксимКамышенков]

@@ValentineC137 bêèéēęĕėëéěans wtf

[@TVSh0rts]

While Playing sniper I also discovered that every class has a hitbox gaps where their head is

[@Trafficallity]

no u just suck

[@drippyfool]

So there's a very real chance that you meatshot an engi with the shotgun, random bullet spread makes every bullet phase through his hitboxes, and it random crit OHKO's a Scout standing behind the Engi

[@tedtubegaming]

that would be absolutely hilarious

[@faceless2302]

Or you could miss a collateral with the Machina even though you still shot through someone technically.

[@ImGonnaFudgeThatFish]

I feel like I have done this before

[@ViciousVinnyD]

That actually seems possible with machina bodyshotting, especially on spies.

[@hoffer_moment]

On hit: 0.00001% chance every pellet is critically charged and then sucked through a wormhole and transported out the back of your target, killing another target instantly.

[@anthonyg.780]

Trivial detail but at 1:13, after you removed Engi's upper body hitboxes, the overheal particles (red +) are visible only on his legs legs, which means they can be applied only to player hitboxes.

[@shounic]

oh wow, i didn't even notice that, you're right. that's a cool fun fact :) thanks for pointing it out

[@Thornskade]

It's also why particles on gibs for the cow mangler death are off, it's because some of the gibs have their "hitboxes" rotated differently from the actual model for some reason.

[@MrMiguel211]

source spaghetti

[@hi-i-am-atan]

@@MrMiguel211 i press the fire button and my dude fires his weapon, what sorta pasta bake code is this game made out of

[@sourestcake]

@@MrMiguel211 ​ This makes sense from a performance standpoint, though. Generating random points within an arbitrary mesh, like a playermodel, is a lot more expensive than doing it with boxes that are already roughly aligned to the playermodel.

[@GMPranav]

I know's it's extremely rare but can we appreciate how you can literally shoot in the perfect center and "miss"? lol

[@andyfriederichsen]

You can't shoot: * Spy's heart, lungs, and spine. * Demoman's liver. * Soldier's left scapula and his crotch. * Pyro's right lung or his liver. * Heavy's left scapula. * Engineer's stomach and spine. * Medic's intestines and spine. * Sniper's lungs or spine.

[@eltiolavara9]

bold of you to assume demoman has a liver

[@untrustworthybagel]

@@eltiolavara9 there is a dramatic arc about demo and his liver in the comics wym

[@Ultra289]

Depending posture

[@CrowCrojoINTJ]

@@untrustworthybagel the best arc in fiction

[@boneman9751]

I don’t think anyone can fathom how disappointed I am that vital organ shots do nothing in a fps game

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

"You probably won't ever be unlucky enough to shoot through these gaps" You underestimate my power

[@cryojack1337]

Random bullet spread, but it spreads through all the gaps

[@xdskiller3509]

Thats will happen for any one have a good aim to miss this welp like thats not gonna ever happen for me

[@Ultra289]

Thats actually what he says But the standing spy with the revolver looking at you, those chances are slightly higher

[@toxic_shr00m]

Don't try it!

[@G59forlife.]

Dont try it!

[@ragalyiakos]

Now I'm actually wondering how many people, while playing this game, exactly hit some one-in-a-million shot through one of these gaps and exclaimed "Oh come on, I definitely hit that guy, what is this hitreg?!"

[@nicolopicus7]

I'd be interested to see some in game achievement spaghetti. Achievement's that can be earned the wrong way or not at all etc.

[@Radi0he4d1]

youtube api achievements

[@thisisspy288]

@@Radi0he4d1 KZbin achievements don't work anymore because they KZbin changed/removed the API TF2 used to track the views

[@miked5163]

I got the domination ragequit achievement for a player I dominated the previous round leaving lol

[@nicolopicus7]

@@miked5163 I remember getting that achievement for killing like 3 players doing the conga by hitting my own killbind

[@Thornskade]

This would probably be kinda boring because a lot of it is very semantic. Mostly the descriptions don't tell you the exact mechanics and you're led to believe there's only one way to earn certain achievements.

[@legenddairy0]

So that explains why some shotgun bullets just disappear through the enemy when shot at point blank range

[@incompetencelogistics8924]

That's probably you just getting bullied by bloom

[@christinezsfm]

But you gotta be really really unlucky if none of the bullets hits

[@legenddairy0]

@@christinezsfm not none but shooting at point blank should be 90 with stock shotgun... not the case sometimes the video explains that i guess

[@MartinPurathur]

Probably RBS

[@Rexen1995]

It also explains why this game is not played competitive anymore as much as it was.

[@CoolAsFreya]

Game designers take note! Make sure your bounding boxes all overlap, it doesn't matter if a bullet hits two hit boxes that's easier to process in code than it missing a gap in the hit boxes!

[@theshermantanker7043]

It's a problem when your game has penetrating bullets that are meant to do damage to both parts that were struck though, as it is for mine. How do I then figure out whether the bullet I shot at an enemy robot in my game really did pierce through its torso and right up into its head, in which I'd grant damage for both the torso hit, and the head hit (as well as the additional critical damage from the headshot), or if it simply hit overlapping hitboxes, whereby I have to avoid double damage events?

[@RubiixCat]

@@theshermantanker7043 Is there a reason the hitboxes need to be completely perfect? It'll probably be close enough that the player wouldn't notice, and it feels WAAY better for the player to get the damage bonus than to do no damage at all.

[@apchistuz]

Bounding boxes are for the collision with the world, not hitscan

[@kvandos]

We finally know why the stormtroopers were “missing” their shots….

[@AdaTheWatcher]

They manually used programs to make thier hitbox small

[@officialgeneral_soldiernat5717]

They also had the Back Scatter’s -20% accuracy debuff applied to their weapons.

[@croc_moat2327]

Jedies have broken hitboxes lol

[@jacksonhall5359]

Wow they must be really unlucky

[@EclipsaMyrtenaster]

The game where "The shot went through him!" is a viable excuse

[@antonikudlicki1100]

What excuse? Who said we're supposed to play good? Playing bad makes it better

[@SuicidalPi.314]

THEY FOUND OUT HOW TO OUTSMART BULLET

[@fantastikboom1094]

@@SuicidalPi.314 LOL

[@dahscreamingeagle3473]

i love how scout's backpack has a hitbox too, meaning the backpack might be a fisical part from him

[@timeslessgun]

The spy hitbox is actually somewhat problematic, because for a game 14 years old i'm sure multiple snipers have questioned their skills by "missing" the centered bodyshot they just did, that could have potentially changed the way a game goes.

[@freddiekruger3339]

Who the fuck bodyshots a spy

[@oikakyoin2595]

Hitting a body shot isn't really that skillful lol

[@vyor8837]

@@oikakyoin2595 depends on the situation

[@stitchfinger7678]

@@oikakyoin2595 not the point but ok

[@eltiolavara9]

no its not

[@Kevin-jb2pv]

Ironically, Sniper has crazy wide hit boxes that extend well beyond the bounds of his model.

[@M30W3R]

I'm willing to bet that this was done on purpose to make sure that Sniper vs Sniper duels would end much quicker and that you could actually pepper Sniper from a distance if he was being annoying

[@Mutaburasaurus]

All their bloody heads look bloody twelve feet tall.

[@kyonghuni]

@@Mutaburasaurus best comment so far

[@KicksPregnantWomen]

good, fuck sniper

[@psycholonya]

it probably has something to do with him being one of the slimmest models, especially when holding the rifle

[@LiveForMusic711]

This explains so much! This must be happening to me every match

[@I0NE007]

Interesting thing i noticed: the sniper laser will be present when overlaid with a hitbox but disappear (presumably projecting on the wall behind) if over a gap in the model's hitbox fields.

[@Thornskade]

It couldn't be any other way, at least I'm not aware of a different method for rendering the laser on the player other than a ray trace

[@malakimphoros2164]

This can be used to detect cloaked spies and then kicked for cheating

[@xdskiller3509]

@@Thornskade no one know the source spagity even the valve who made the source engine so 99.9 % there is a way no one know it

[@Appletank8]

@@malakimphoros2164 wait, so you'd just have a floating laser dot in the air if there's a cloaked spy?

[@Rico-bk5bj]

@@xdskiller3509 It's a very simple raycast(Line) that shoots out from the middle of the screen and then what ever point it hits on the hitbox it will project a laser effect. The only reason the laser doesn't appear directly on the mesh is because it doesn't contain any collision, which is what the laser needs to project onto a object.

[@pileovideos1242]

scout keeps all his extra life force in his bag i guess?

[@SnrubSource]

It's a tumor

[@SEX_TRAINER]

Funny, original, made me laugh, jokes about tumors were pretty funny too, because i like scout dying from cancer.

[@lpmatthews7387]

It's his phlactorphy, which is how medic revs him obviously, not cuz of literal godly intervention or medic owning scout's soul

[@AbsoluteRatBastard]

@@SnrubSource he only has 3 days to live, but this time its real

[@karstenkunneman5219]

@@lpmatthews7387 phylactery?

[@Cru128]

I love how he says probably, when I’m the most incompetent man you could ever get for marksmanship.

[@fedoraturtle6536]

I forgot how much Demoman moves around when he holds his melee.

[@xdskiller3509]

What do you expect that guy is high when drinking the blood of his enemies

[@captainfa-it-lcon915]

@@xdskiller3509 mixed with cheap whiskey.

[@usernametaken017]

@@captainfa-it-lcon915 He gets thousand of dollars because of his job but he just doesn't let go of his cheap whiskeys

[@idk-cc1ep]

@@usernametaken017 they're not exactly cheap when you drink a lot of them

[@captainfa-it-lcon915]

@@idk-cc1ep I mean, each bottle is cheap itself for the average whiskey bottle.

[@festiveobeliskus]

pretty smart of the mercs to have their vital organs right between their hitboxes

[@sourceeee]

This is new knowledge to me after playing this game for a decade. If there was a small chance for me to be unlucky in this way then I've probably hit more dud shots than I can count.

[@omegasynth2775]

Can we just "appreciate" how Scout's bag is apparently technically part of his body?

[@vcd5841]

It's where he keeps all his organs

[@reminy13]

@@vcd5841 dear god

[@blitz_johan1242]

@@vcd5841 so if i “carefully” remove his bag, he should die and i can collect his head for my killstreak eyelander

[@potatoslayer69420]

@@blitz_johan1242 yes

[@funkyoa]

pee is stored in the bag

[@FormerBunsenBurner]

Watching this series, I've come to realize that the most impressive part about TF2 is that it even boots up, with things like this.

[@Mizir-pq7jf]

I know it was fake put the story of the coconut png that would break the game if deleted from the files proves this point

[@cheddartaco]

@@Mizir-pq7jf it does crash if the model for the 2fort cow is missing though

[@Mizir-pq7jf]

@Sisu Litost (subs) I still like to pretend its real

[@Liggliluff]

(0:20) So if you shoot the backpack from the side, he takes damage, even though it never hit him? Plus that hitbox on the head is huge.

[@Mate_Antal_Zoltan]

welcome back to another episode of shounic ruining Snipers' lives by telling people to stare at the sky

[@disc_00]

Because fuck em, that's why

[@arthuro1189]

Ruining sniper's lives? GOOD.

[@Mate_Antal_Zoltan]

I love these replies, keep them coming

[@mekhane.broken9678]

Sniper deserves it.

[@ma3oxvict727]

Snipers with rifles, because snopers with bows now can shoot air to headshot

[@BootGonnaEatShoes]

Throwback to several years ago when the engineer was just straight up missing his pelvis hitbox since Launch. It’s the box below his belt in the video. You just couldn’t shoot him in a good 1/4th of his centre mass

[@Qobp]

He just had a really good pair of kevlar undies

[@Artician]

The Engiebots in MvM still have that problem

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

Oh god, I remember the "Engineer has balls of steel" meme! But Valve fixed that missing pelvis hitbox, right? We could see it in the video. So I wonder why Valve devs can't fix some of the other "holes"?

[@IAm-zo1bo]

@@TF2CrunchyFrog Because they aren't big enough for people to even notice, and they don't really care about the game for a while

[@iamafuckingfailure]

Bulletproof balls

[@electrical_fan]

1:28 call of duty

[@kalerug]

I love how Scout's backpack and Pyro's gas tank are technically part of their bodies

[@asteroidrules]

In earlier versions of the game the pyro's tank would even bleed when hit.

[@irotosuk9663]

i think it could explode in real life if a gun shoots a gas tank

[@mrfootfxtish9430]

@@irotosuk9663 naw bullets can’t make gas tanks explode, bullets are just going through the gas or smth

[@IsChillianing]

@@mrfootfxtish9430 Gas tanks are filled with gasoline

[@thegiovannimauro]

@@IsChillianing yes, but unless it's an incendiary round or sparks in some way the bullet shouldn't ignite it. Just because the container which houses the gasoline is ruptured that doesn't mean that the gas will ignite.

[@nikoproto]

yay! time to use this to explain that im not just bad

[@BottleWaterson]

on the flipside, missing 2 boxes in such a precise matter means your godlike to do so.

[@Setanta077]

Nice pfp

[@FirstnameLastname-sb3hj]

Nice Niko pfp!

[@notimportant4804]

i dont see the problem just dont shoot through the gaps in the hitbox

[@mibbleyt]

nikoo

[@jadp.5008]

Gotta love the title. Short and straight to the point.

[@the_dogey]

Your chances of getting a critical miss is slim. But never zero.

[@psy-fi64]

Critical miss lmao

[@SEX_TRAINER]

@@psy-fi64 lmao lol xd

[@SEX_TRAINER]

@@psy-fi64 funny haha

[@congospartan3425]

Oh my gawd bro CSGO critical misses they r so god awful

[@kevinaosei]

Xcom moment

[@chompythebeast]

It looks surprisingly easy to accidentally hit some of these spots with enough play

[@Yodah97]

Especially with weapons like Sniper's rifle and Scout's shotgun. In the shotgun case it would mean you deal less damage because some pellets slipped through the cracks.

[@buzzlightyearpfp7641]

On a moving target though? One constantly rotating and performing different animations? No chance

[@someidiotwithafryingpan3752]

Mmmm*maybe*, but Tf2’s generally such a fast-paced and chaotic game that you’re pretty unlikely to notice it. Only a few weapons aren’t rapid-fire, explosions, fire, projectiles, or have multiple pellets, so the only things I can see it happening with and you potentially (that’s a BIG potentially) noticing with are sniper rifles and maybe revolvers.

[@daanstrik4293]

@@buzzlightyearpfp7641 not for most players no. But look how many players there are And how many matches they play And how often they get shot in such a match. Its common enough to be a daily occurance

[@Kirito_2016]

@@buzzlightyearpfp7641 No one could intentionally do it, (unless they knew the hitbox layout and they caught someone afk) But just through pure chance, with how many hours people play, it's bound to happen all the time. The player prolly just blames hitreg, or maybe rollback? Idk how TF2's severs work. Regardless, it doesn't happen enough for people to notice, but it definitely happens.

[@NatilCort]

0:11 *When Spy Had Enough*

[@SirMatthew]

So the spy, standing still, looking forward, with his primary out has a massive gap in the hitbox and nobody noticed

[@Thornskade]

Engineer's Hitboxes used to not cover his pelvis at all, so shooting him in the ding would do no damage. Valve eventually fixed that not too long ago, though I doubt they're ever going to take the time to fix these small gaps during certain poses

[@eltiolavara9]

theyre not an issue anyways, fixing them would break way more stuff

[@kerosenn7016]

@@eltiolavara9 no it wouldn’t this is actually a stupidly simple problem to fix.

[@kerosenn7016]

@@eltiolavara9 All you would need to do is decompile the MDL of the classes using crowbar. Open the qc with notepad ++. Open the MDL with HLMV. Enlarge the spine 1 and spine 2 hit boxes by literally by 1y or 2y than what’s already there. Generate hit box info from hlmv and replace the hit box info in the qc with that. You just then need to recompile it in the correct directory.

[@kerosenn7016]

Reasoning behind this is that MDL files are compiled models with qc commands that define that model along with other information. So basically it’s hit box can be literally just fixed by increasing the hitbox spine values slightly and replacing the old MDL.

[@Thornskade]

@@kerosenn7016 You're right, this wouldn't break anything, but it would take a lot of work to get right. You'd habe to check every single pose and how it transforms the boxes, or if you added more boxes for the in-betweens the game would be slightly less performant.

[@Tr0lliPop]

I'm honestly more surprised that scout's bag (duffelbag? backpack?) has a hitbox.

[@theshermantanker7043]

Definitely, just like Pyro's has canister also has one. These 2 objects should definitely not injure the actual person if hit

[@Tr0lliPop]

@@theshermantanker7043 I mean If we go by realism then shooting pyros canister should instantly explode him tbh.

[@Narvin69]

The type of bag is called messenger sling bag :>

[@MYG]

"I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy

[@TheDandelionSniper]

One bullet can be outsmarted many no.

[@TheManinBlack9054]

They have finally outsmarted bullet

[@ztoogemcducc6360]

Didn't the engineer have an "invincible" groin for years?

[@BComet]

Yep, he had a decent sized hitbox gap on his crotch for a long time.

[@hoonterofhoonters6588]

He obviously replaced his balls with steel until Valve nerfed his junk.

[@seokkyunhong8812]

I thought it was just "lore" for baggy pants

[@vxidwvlkxr]

I thought that was the Short Circuit :^]]]]]]]]]

[@atruepanda1782]

I know that these holes are small and have probably actually mattered like 3 times in the entirety of matches of tf2, but from a game design standpoint those things are *massive.* Holes that size should never be there, they are ridiculously big. The only reason I think they haven't been found before is that most weapons in tf2 fire multiple bullets and random bullet spread is enabled by default, making bullets go in all sort of different places

[@Tetr1s]

The funny thing is, there will never be an update for this

[@whataday9042]

yes, someday...

[@jdr9519]

@@whataday9042 no there won’t?

[@whataday9042]

@@jdr9519 oops didn't see that 'never' word. thx

[@breadiztasty]

They did update that one time when they caught the engie not having a hitbox on his groin though

[@Qobp]

@@breadiztasty so next decade they might add a hitbox to spys heart

[@breadbucket66]

WHY DOES SCOUT HAVE A HITBOX ON HIS BAG edit:i guess its a friend of the pyro gas can

[@mr.personalspace7831]

He has the item Isaac’s Heart in his bag.

[@thomas-cr4vy]

@@mr.personalspace7831 this is why you don't pick up items with curse of the blind

[@companioncube4232]

@@mr.personalspace7831 smh isaac's heart is so bugged

[@iegendary-r8r]

lol love to see some tboi references

[@Eira_]

That's where his vital organs are

[@Elixirs_mp4]

TF2 so innovative they included quantum mechanics!

[@griffinbastion]

imagine being a medic healing your teammate and getting shot through your teammate's chest

[@toxic_shr00m]

And you're on a slight slope so it's a headshot

[@ripoutyourintestines5099]

WW1 was wild, this probably happened.

[@griffinbastion]

@@ripoutyourintestines5099 more likely ww2 since in ww2 people commited more war crimes, and shooting near medical staff was a big no no for a long long time

[@swallow_skyla3602]

So Spycrabs knew this all along, and were making themselves immune to Sniper shots

[@Zorro9129]

Meanwhile those are colossal head hitboxes, and apparently Scout's bag counts as a hitbox!

[@ya_boi_salami]

csgo changed its hitbox shape to round cylindrical capsules a few years ago to better fit the models, with their roundness they shouldn't have much in the way of gaps when they rotate, like when looking up or down, at least compared to boxes. I wonder if tf2 would benefit from the same treatment

[@SchemingGoldberg]

Or... Valve could just make the torso hitboxes taller. The arm and leg hitboxes are fine, and the head hitbox is fine, it's only the torso ones that are too small.

[@lev7509]

@@SchemingGoldberg ...on the other hand, the torso bending forwards or backwards would cause the increase in the hitbox heights to pop out of the torso on the side that's stretched. Which could make for some weird shots... In any case, the gap in spy's chest still needs fixing.

[@spartanwar1185]

I think making the hit zones spherical is a perfect solution, dunno why one would go with anything else

[@nogitsunegaming]

This seems like something that would be incredibly easy to fix. Like with the ease where you just crack open the model and can edit the hit boxes in -seconds- it seems like this is a fix that would take all of like... Idk... 20 minutes to implement?

[@VIDEOGAMEVIDEOGAMEVIDEOGAME]

We will not fix it

[@hypersans6209]

Smarter fix would be to create hitbox joint verticies, where there are set of 4 verticies defined for each bone, and a 6 sided prism created to connect those sets of verticies. Then you could just do collisions with that new geometry. Makes for a more dynamic hitbox and gets rid of holes

[@aneeveewhohasinternet1871]

If hitboxes overlapped i think it would trigger twice doing double damage? Maybe I'm wrong

[@nogitsunegaming]

@@aneeveewhohasinternet1871 dudes got a hitbox tool, one way to find out~

[@VIDEOGAMEVIDEOGAMEVIDEOGAME]

@@aneeveewhohasinternet1871 No, because I think the first hitbox to be hit would stop the bullet, since if someone is standing inside another person and one person gets shot they don't both take damage.

[@AxiEisa]

The fact that Scout has a small duffel bag that seems to be apart of his body

[@sassytabasco]

"You'll probably never be unlucky enough to hit them" I disagree, I think this revelation is pretty painful for pick classes that rely on hit scan weapons. The chance for Sniper to miss is probably a lot greater than every other class, but a particularly good sniper will likely just aim for the head, so no big. But that does explain shotgun based damage problems. (Well, along with random spread. Valve sure are bad at stuff sometimes.)

[@nightblade178]

There must be countless bullets from shotguns that have managed to sneak in these cracks. Since u aim at the torso usually

[@kabhes9040]

this is how most hitboxes work in other video games

[@kabhes9040]

@1998SIMOMEGA I just did and I was right.

[@yeyo1019]

@1998SIMOMEGA It's how most game's hitboxes work my dude, now in modern times developers have decided to make hitboxes that are identical or more closely resemble the player model (note that this is more prominent in modern fps) even then things like fighting games still use the classic box system (unless you're mortal kombat) and other games that don't require crazy amounts of precision also still use a system similar to tf2

[@hazelv.a.7976]

Random spread isn't a bad thing.

[@MatridoxRBLX]

Bro I've body shotted so many players and 'miss' so many times. I always thought it was just me not paying attention to where my crosshair was, but this could be the reason, too.

[@Ngcdswii]

Same here! So many times I could have sworn I was aiming right at them. For me it happens mostly with the revolver

[@MatridoxRBLX]

@@Ngcdswii Yeah but generally the hitreg with spy's revolvers suck. Glad to not be the only one who notices the blatant bodyshots 'missing', though.

[@SgtAwesome97]

So that's why I "missed" that shot on a spy....... for close to 3 years now I've been curious about this, low health spy, fully charged sniper shot, so I shoot center mass for an easy kill, and yet he does not take damage even though my cross hair was directly on his chest, with like 50ms ping so it wasn't lag..... huh

[@clockworks5069]

oddly specific...

[@SgtAwesome97]

@@clockworks5069 It was such an odd scenario, it's stuck with me for a long while. Now I finally know the reason why it happened. It's satisfying tbh

[@bunzen0knatzen]

Imagine if an AI got so good at TF2, it would move the mouse so that every bullet heading towards them missed through the gaps in the hitbox.

[@ProOrLooser]

Don't need an AI for that you could make an aimbot that does that already

[@vez3834]

@@ProOrLooser Aimbot that dodges bullets? (He wasn't talking about Aimbot missing bullets)

[@ProOrLooser]

@@vez3834 oh my bad, I guess I misunderstood, that wouldn't even be possible with some crazy AI because of the way hitscan works, and the projectile based weapons all have too big of a hitbox to even fit in the gap I think.

[@reminy13]

I dont think that could work cause you can move your aim faster than a player can move

[@laziness6641]

Nah there are certain spaces, that are guaranteed hits I think. If there are, then you'd aim for that and an AI can't just go faster because of perfect inputs so even they couldn't just move to dodge, meaning then they'll die

[@VickMcbread]

Winning the lottery is technically possible. I dare anyone to show me a clip of this happening and the player getting robbed and dies in the process (in a real game, like casual or a 24/7 hightower)

[@satoruriolu6132]

There's plenty out there

[@guitarninja416]

the spy one can happen a lot

[@ohitsrusher842]

Shotguns.

[@EdwardChan.999]

I use Machina a lot and this happened a few times before

[@VickMcbread]

@@satoruriolu6132 show me. I'm serious. Show me any of them

[@dondutch4107]

"left gaps for whatever reason" the reason being the Bones first function is not as a hit box its the framing for animations to use and its the framing for the character mesh to be rigged to. ive done a bit of character creation and animation so i have seen the boxes around the armature/IK bone however never did game design where i needed to make hit boxes functional.. i was under the impression the hit boxes were added to a completed rigged character, didnt realize hit boxes where the rigg/IK bones itself

[@DEWILL]

Thank you, one more excuse I can use when I lose the fight against a Spy

[@puffyvulva]

Well this at least partially explains how I manage to miss shots clearly in the torso and hit nonsense headshots. I never realized the head hitboxes were that big either. I also wonder how many times scouts have died in 1v1 to an enemy that left with single digit health were just because a pellet or two flew through the gap in the hitboxes.

[@krakkywakky863]

Me when the sniper shoots me but he only hits my vital organs

[@OnuatheZorua]

Welcome to Team Fortress 2. After nine years in development, hopefully it will have been worth the wait.

[@MrDirt]

Well these are all very rare edge cases except for the spy. This chest gab is huge.

[@AbdullahEkici34]

They actually have to add boxes with their body shape . But I think that's bit hard.

[@Vinworld]

I love how straight forward the video is, there is no intro/outro or anything its just the meat of the video except i dont have the skip ahead a minute and a half

[@Crow_Rising]

The more I watch this channel the more I question how issues like this could have existed for so long without being fixed. I can only assume it's because of code spaghetti and the fear associated with trying to fix things that are part of such a delicate balance of everything being just barely functional.

[@Hitoshuratdn]

Simple, because this is valve.

[@TinyDeskEngineer]

People are always talking about the tank on Pyro's back bleeding when shot, but nobody's talking about how the bag on the scout's back also has a hitbox and thus can also bleed.

[@gloom5405]

"If i shoot a man with gun,he takes damage" -Shun Tzu,Art of War

[@faz2k]

shoot man, not a man. Please.

[@koenvandamme6901]

I believe the quote from the original is "Gun go bang, man go auchie."

[@jonsku6662]

Heavy: "It is good day to be not ded!" Engi: "Pow! You are ded!" Heavy('s hitbox): "... You didn't even hit me." Engi: "Come on! That's bullshit!"

[@TheBreakingBenny]

Another good ending!!!

[@supertrinigamer]

Someone needs to use the voice synthesiser and do this

[@bruhmoment8548]

With the shit the mercenarys have gone through. I'm not surprised that they have holes in them

[@mikonson4091]

1:42 "You probably wont ever be unlucky enough to shoot through these gaps" Yeah, about that...

[@paul-andreiionescu5412]

firends: did u miss your shot? me in tf2 from now on: no, I hit the gaps in their hitboxes B)

[@tehepicnoob6214]

Imagine going Matrix mode and going in such positions that all bullets miss you

[@MaikoRules]

"Spy's hacking!" "No dude. He's just looking up"

[@AfraidMonsters]

There’s so many times where I literally shoot right at enemy spies as spy, or other classes but usually enemy spy, and lots of my shots completely misses them despite shooting right at them multiple times.

[@Kylirr]

If you're a spy using the revolver that's more likely the revolver's random spread, which makes it awfully inaccurate.

[@thegamingman-ye2ec]

"as we all know, if i shoot man with gun, he takes damage." -a wise man i think

[@ozymandiaskingofkings3484]

Pyro: "You missed, Spy. It's over." Spy: "I wasn't aiming for you. I was aiming THROUGH you." Pyro: "N-nani?!"

[@godofportal5905]

what it actually sounded like Pyro: Mmm mmmm mm. mm mm Spy: I wasn't aiming for you. I was aiming THROUGH you. Pyro: M-mmm?!!?

[@pater7387]

All this analisis makes me wonder how the Dragon’s Fury works since blue moon. Whats is the center of the fireball? Does it shoot a sphere? A box? Does it come into contact with the player ECB or Hitscan hitbox? Why does nobody use it?

[@OmegaRC59]

You can see the hitbox with tf_fireball_debug iirc, which shows it as a sphere (it's been a few years but it should be named similarly enough you can find it). I'd assume it just uses the bounding box collision and checks if the origin of the fireball touches it at any point. As for why nobody uses it, idk. I use it basically any time I'm not on maps with huge props and map object bounding boxes that block the fireball and there's sentry nests, it's good at it. Just wish I could use it on badwater last lol

[@Vizaru]

one major reason dragons fury isn't used is because the airblast cooldown is exceptionally bad. the backburner is more competent at airblasting, as an ammo penalty is less bad than waiting 1.6 seconds for any follow up.

[@OmegaRC59]

@@Vizaru Yeah, it's pretty bad at airblasting, but the upsides of being able to do power class levels of damage and take out sentry nests reliably if not better than other classes situationally I think would give it a solid spot if the stupid prop bounding box bug didn't exist. I've been using it a ton recently and if you compensate for the airblast by playing more traditionally and only using it as a last resort or to save someone it's not the biggest hindrance to you, you just fulfill an attack oriented role that Pyro can't fulfill with a normal flamethrower

[@seokkyunhong8812]

@@OmegaRC59 I feel like your team is bit scuffed if pyro is handling demolition duty

[@OmegaRC59]

@@seokkyunhong8812 Not exactly, it actually pairs really well with your other demolition classes to use the DF alongside them. You get reduced team support from airblasting, but 75 damage, insane projectile speed, and a fast as fuck firing speed without reloading is hard to argue with if you're taking down a nest within DF range. Try it sometime. The lack of downtime is what really tips this weapon as a sentry buster into being stronger that Soldier and Demo in the right circumstances. However if your normal flamethrower pyros are having to do this, yeah, that's a problem. The DF is more a weapon to pick if you want to help out as Pyro against a heavily guarded nest, and while some great offensive capability against players in general. If you're too far though you'd be way better off picking other classes for it. It's situational and not a weapon to run full-time, but very strong in the circumstances that it benefits from

[@renthewerecat]

knowing my luck i have been constantly shooting through these gaps

[@Nilaikx]

Running away while looking up is even better than we thought, you can block your head with your arm and create gaps in your hitbox

[@bigmoneyben08]

1:01 Huntsman hitbox be like:

[@upsidedown-pug1974]

I'm just imagining a TF2 animation where a spy dodges a bullet by just not moving

[@rawccoon]

next time a whiff an easy shot, i'll just say it was because i was so accurate i managed to shoot the subatomic space between the enemy's hitboxes

[@Flynn217something]

Me: misses shot Shounic: uploads Me: Don't do that, don't give me hope

[@Treblaine]

They seemed to be unusually worried about different torso hitboxes overlapping. Maybe this caused bugs?

[@TheCptnOfFail]

I wonder how many other games have hitboxes like this and how often it might be the cause of "ghost" bullets. Probably not often as most of the games I can think of are in need of a network rework.

[@Bestgameplayer10]

I honestly think TF2 is a worst case scenario in regards to a “AAA” release. Or even indie release my today’s standard. Some games have their hitbox quirks but none with such glaring gaps like TF2’s with further inspection.

[@josephlane1614]

The odds of missing all the hit boxes is slim in most cases, but the odds of shooting through someones chest and hitting the arm or back seems to be real.

[@novygaming5713]

There is a way for valve to not have to use hitboxes but instead use the character mesh itself. Tf2 detects bullet collision by casting a ray in the direction you're looking. The ray uses a ray-box intersection algorithm to detect intersection. There are however ray-triangle intersection algorithms that can be used instead since the player meshes are made up of them. It will be 150% to 180% slower but nowadays people don't generally use potatoes to play and casting a single ray isn't computationally expensive even for potato pcs. You can even assign certain triangles to be the head or arms.