TF2: The Dead Ringer is Bad Design

[@Jontohil2]

If this video does well, I'll likely make a follow up video discussing ideas on how to actually fix it, I already have a couple of my own.

[@nanoblob4998]

please do

[@Dr_Body_bags]

Do it sake for people who uses it so they can't be so pain in the ass Honestly i hate this weapon because i like spies that really try play spy and not do braindead shit chombo because if they are in my team well... we are down couple of players If anyone is interested to read my honest opinion go check comment section i've got lot of text in there

[@trashassnoob]

bad weapon

[@Dr_Body_bags]

​@@trashassnoobagreed

[@trashassnoob]

@@Dr_Body_bags that spy is a sentry

[@LazyPurple]

Great video all around! I hope everyone else can see and appreciate just how much you went above and beyond to ensure that the pacing and visuals came together to form an effortless watch (pun? not intended? DR is an effortless watch?). On the topic itself: "Dr. Ambycicle" Spy has become my secret weapon for having fun in lobbies where my team is hopelessly outmatched and there's no real reward for "good positioning." I love invincibly trolling about and "making space" by getting chased here and there by 3+ people, but I see it as a jokey subclass similar to Huntsman Sniper - poorly designed but underpowered and fun so "whatever lol." I guess that proves your point, but personally I'm never bothered by underpowered options - whenever I choose to take the game seriously, I instantly switch to CnD. Spy is scarily consistent when you can choose to only stab distracted players, and imo that's the best single piece of advice you could give any new Spy. P.S. The ear-wrenching decloak sound is hilariously dumb and discourages "actually faking your death." I imagine Valve was scared that fake deaths would be too confusing/convincing and added the decloak sound as insurance, but it's to the point now that you can reliably trickstab people by DR-decloaking behind them and then rotating to their front lol.

[@Jontohil2]

Did not expect you to show up in my comments

[@calamityapple2044]

Hello

[@theslavguystudios4811]

Make another sfm and go away *D W E E B*

[@SoloWingGutman]

didn't expect to see lazy in here :D

[@Blubox-h5n]

Huh, it’s Lazy Purple

[@llASMADEUSll]

The problem with the dead ringer is that it can't really be used for its intended purpose well anymore. If you try to feign the death at low health you'll often die anyway because it's only 70% resistance now, instead of 90% like it used to. Common scenario: you get hit by a demo pipe and take a 100 damage leaving you at 25, you pull out the dead ringer but a second pipe still does 30 damage after resistance and kills you. That's why many people run around with dead ringer pre-emptively up. Also prevents dying to some random crits out of nowhere

[@LyritZian]

It's 75%, not 70% -- but I totally agree all the same.

[@irregularassassin6380]

I wonder if hard-coding a set amount of damage taken when it triggers would help this whole situation? Like, say, 20 damage, perhaps. That would solve the demo-pill problem, and punish the spy for triggering it on a fall or from a long-range shotgun blast.

[@Davtwan]

Maybe how much damage resistance you should depend on how much health you had when it’s triggered. This includes include how much damage from the hit you took. This can also affect how loud your decloak should be as well as the length of the speed boost. Heck, it could also include how much cloak you get. I.E. Taking chip damage at 100% health means low damage resistance, a loud decloak, no speed boost, and a four second cloak. Taking a meatshot or direct hit from an explosive at 25% health means very high damage resistance, moderately quiet decloak (think C&D), one-and-a-half seconds of speed boost, and eight seconds of cloak. Heck taking chip damage at say 5% health could trigger the latter effects too. It all depends on how close you _could_ have been to 0 if you haven’t used the DR.

[@Banshee523]

I can't believe this isn't being talked about more when the Dead Ringer comes up, and that it never was mentioned in the video. Of course nobody uses it that way now because you just die for real if you try. On top of this change, they also slapped a speed boost and afterburn immunity on it to help you against players who know you're there. They literally did everything possible to discourage trying to use it convincingly. Predictability was then further increased with the ammo box refill nerf. Anyone who actually plays Spy would understand this already and stick to one of the other watches. The DR is just straight trash against players who know how to play.

[@sonicmeerkat]

honestly this, i tried experimenting with the dead ringer in 1v1's and despite convincingly faking my death by activating it on the hit that would kill me i'd still get caught out by the absolute blarring of the decloak, and moving away... yeah more exposure time as spy is bad, there's a reason deadringing can only effectively be done as gunspy because it actively hinders your ability to approach the enemy, it is purely an escape tool. granted dms are different to both casual and competitive the problem persists, in competitive everyone has their headphones on and can focus you down from fewer random distractions and in casual it has to be paired with the kunai cause you can't effectively cloak meaning using your one use of damage reduction absolutely cucks you. and well giving the self healing facetank damage resistance is a bit much, any other case is either the fists of steel which gives a melee vulnerability on the slowest class in the game or the soldiers box which needs to be charged with damage. as poorly designed as the vaxinator is it at least has the worst healing of the mediguns... just ignore the uber continues when uneqiuped so you can shoot your patient with the crossbow. i feel like something as simple as a 100% resistance when activated but a damage vulnerability when cloaked without the speed boost would force players to make their death convincing or else they get punished hard, cause in its current state the only downside to abusing the resistance and speed boost is not having it available afterwards, but you're playing spy so there aren't many situations you'd survive being discovered without extra speed or health.

[@LawreAnimations]

The Dead Ringer does everything except the thing it was actually designed for.

[@majoras_swag2]

Lmao

[@TeenWithACarrotIDK]

You can’t properly (feign) your death if your fake death isn’t convincing. It also limits you so much if you actually try to do what it’s meant for. The viable way of using it is quite the opposite: run into the enemy, try trick stabbing all of them, use dead ringer in an obvious way but be able to prevent your own death. It is a death feigner that also helps prevent your death. The fact that you can fake your death isn’t relevant compared to the power you have being able to, with enough skill and management, not die to things you should die to.

[@johannesneumayer6041]

It’s funny how there are weapons intended to be used like the class was intended (Scottish resistance, YER, DR, you name em), and players either abuse them or think they are horrible.

[@birbeyboop]

​@@TeenWithACarrotIDK just for future reference, it's spelled feign

[@Chumi2]

@@birbeyboopI think he was trying to type fake

[@FlatlandsSurvivor]

One of my favorite dead ringer tricks is diguising as a friendly to feign death. The amount of havoc I have caused by making people think they took out a high priority target is incredible. It is a way to turn the tables on an organized and communicating team, you feed them nonsense such as making them think they got a med pick

[@goodboi1725]

Have you gotten teams to rush early bc they believed they got a med pick? I can imagine the confusion when they see the same medic pop a counter uber moments later

[@usmanfatih6436]

that would probably work best on 2fort.

[@pacifistminigun3987]

Wait, the fake corpse doesn't turn into spy when you are disguised as a teammate?

[@lisatroiani6119]

@@pacifistminigun3987no

[@shrimpchris6580]

@@pacifistminigun3987 Correct. It tells them you killed whoever you were disguised as.

[@TJ-hg6op]

I feel like the dead ringer is a cool idea, but the issue is spy’s health. It seems to be designed more like a “last resort” option sorta like the escape plan. The issue is that spy has so low health that most of the time you have to be ALREADY holding it out or else you will probably be instakilled. While soldier has a bigger health bar meaning he has more opportunities to use it as a last resort.

[@matricious]

yea, I agree. It should instead activate automatically when the spy receives a killing blow, giving him invulnerability + cloak. It would also make his death more believable

[@the_tube2]

​@@matriciouswouldn't still have the same issue? 125hp is quite low a decent chunk of weapons can one shot you let alone if you have any of the knives that lower your base HP so it would basically be the same thing. 70 HP is a killing blow to alot of weapons(excluding automatic weapons) even 100 HP is scary. The video also stated that the enemy is punished for doing what they're supposed to so it would lean further into the issue. Either way good players would still check for a deadringer spy even if they think they did enough damage if they already caught on

[@the_tube2]

​@@matriciousadding invulnerability to spy seems like walking on a very thin rope as well. Undercharge is so good and even Scout's bonk(in a good team is really really good). I think spy should have an "escape plan" but he needs to trade it with something in his kit but I'm not too sure what exactly it would be. Since soldier trades taking more damage inorder to get a faster movement speed inorder to get out due to his HP usually he would be at 75-1 HP range where the damage he would take normally wouldn't matter in favour of getting out better. However, spy doesn't lose anything. The downside of the deadringer is that it's not the stock watch. He just flips up his watch and he gains alot of defensive utility. Ok what I'm trying to say is that spy already risks a shit ton of things when you pick him. The deadringer rewards taking those risks in exchange(which is ok to reward risks but spy already takes those risks so the spy just has to do his thing) of being predictable if careless. If you buff it just enough it would feel terrible to play against but not buffing it or not changing it would leave it in limbo. No hate btw, hopefully I don't come off as antagonizing here.

[@Dragoonsoul7878]

@@the_tube2 The problem is by design Spy wants to escape after getting a kill or they have failed. Either way they would benefit from any escape tool in a way they can't make a trade off. You couldn't replace their Revolver or Watch with an escape tool as it would combo with their "escape knives" to be broken. To put into perspective how bad an escape tool would be to deal with, it would be like if Sniper could shoot projectiles and it would cause his bullets to ricochet in the shooter's head.

[@the_tube2]

@@Dragoonsoul7878 then could I suggest something else? What if spy had to predict if he needed to escape. I play valorant so there's an character with an ability to dash away from bad situations(she is very strong) but the Devs decided to add a primer to her dash so that she couldn't dash away instantly and has to think if she's gonna go in a fight. So why not add it to the death ringer? It would at least reduce the problem a bit. Make sure you have to prime the dead ringer before you go in and have a timer when you can have it out and when it goes out without triggering you have to wait for it to recharge again. It would take there be higher skill floor and somewhat deal with the problem but I'm not too sure what else to do because it would break the dead ringer(for better or worse)

[@HotShhot]

One thing you did not mention, and that people never ever do, is disguise as your own teammate to make your death a bit less obvious. I think they should design it around that, so it's actually possible to look like a clueless Pyro and not alert anyone that there's a Spy coming. Unfortunately right now the game will sometimes be a bit "off" when spawning dead ringer corpses and particles.

[@Fr3nchCat]

That was exactly what I was thinking.

[@Flarflenugen]

Ya, sorry, but if i see an enemy die to a single hit that juat came out of spawn, and wasnt trying to avoid my shots, i know thats a dead ringer. It may take it a littler extra, but im not going to be fooled for long.

[@Reindan]

@@Flarflenugen Used to play with it a few years ago (like that). To get killed unsuspiciously in one-hit the best way was to pass through a place that sniper or turret usually cover (later is less optimal). Coming out of spawn with it was just a way to leave the spawn if it gets camped, hoping that in the mess it won't be seen too much, and not much else. So using it like that is situational but more useful than you might think.

[@CocoWash.]

​@@Flarflenugen🗿

[@Flarflenugen]

@P-nk-m-na have you met tf2 players?

[@angryratel]

You forgot to mention how you can just turn on the sound on kill in the advanced settings to counter the DR as the game doesn't play the sound when the spy fakes his death

[@ani_star9729]

It actually does sometimes, it’s very inconsistent

[@angryratel]

@abitofananimator5716 still the inconsistency can be used to detect a spy sometimes

[@kaden-sd6vb]

And there are other things that don't occur when triggering a deadringer as well

[@angryratel]

@@kaden-sd6vb like?

[@kaden-sd6vb]

@@angryratel haven't played for a while so I can't quite remember exactly, but I know there are some inconsistencies between real kills and DR triggers

[@metalmaple-fluffyhoney54]

The interesting thing regarding the last clip, is that there's an in-game hint reminding you can fake the death of a teammate with the dead ringer Which is something important that a lot of people forget

[@RandomHandleLol1738]

I remember going as a hoovy in a 2Fort server and faking my death every time I took any damage. Nobody suspected a thing, and I kept up the act for an hour.

[@RandomHandleLol1738]

And I wasn’t being useless, I was sapping engineers buildings. But nobody suspected the friendly hoovy on the enemy team to actually be a spy using the red tape recorder.

[@CaptianKatsura]

Yeah, back in the Dr. Enforcicle days when i still mained Spy I'd always disguise as a friendly Scout or Pyro, since they were both classes the enemy would expect to mindlessly run towards them, making them the perfect disguises to feign death with.

[@pacifistminigun3987]

I had no clue it was a thing.... Over 1k hours well spent.... 😭

[@suki-artsanimations807]

Thats what I do the most if I use a DR

[@ohno5507]

I think why the escape plan is less hated is because the soldier using it is forced to retreat. He is still taken away from the fight, and can't really do anything to the enemy team while using it. The DR, however, isn't a punishment in any for the spy, and allows him to stay as a threat to the enemy team. It can also be used whenever he wants, low heath or not. That's the main issue, he can just use it whenever, and while it's not OP, it's just not fun to deal with. If I had to suggest a change, it would be to make the dead ringer a passive that only activates when you take a hit that would otherwise be lethal, and still maintain the other benefits. This could potentially encourage a more defensive/risky playstyle, and potentially even make the feigned death more believable. Obviously I don't' know if it would be a good change in practice, but I think it could potentially make it less annoying to deal with while adding more risk/reward to getting behind enemy lines.

[@TheFoolishSamurai]

I would have the threshold be a low health threshold rather than/along with it the lethal hit due to Heavy's minigun, Pyro's flames, and pistols chipping at your health and very easily making the timing too tight

[@elgatochurro]

It's harder to use it now, you need plenty of good HP to survive the hit still

[@elgatochurro]

It's harder to use it now, you need plenty of good HP to survive the hit still

[@aqwkingchampion13]

​@@TheFoolishSamurai Maybe a check per weapon fire type? That way it doesn’t proc early for a sniper bodyshot (hm… I hit that spy twice with bodyshots, he should be a 25 health because he just came from spawn, but he just died… must be a ringer), but can detect flamethrowers, pistols, miniguns, etc to give an extra buffer because they don’t just stop shooting on death, and it would be harder to tell the exact amount of damage done.

[@ohno5507]

@@TheFoolishSamurai I'm not sure how tight timing would be an issue, as what I'm suggesting is a passive that activates automatically. What I'm saying is you don't activate it yourself, but rather it activates to save you from death.

[@HyperX755]

I think the concept of the dead ringer was amazing. The idea of deceiving your enemies into thinking you died, only to seemingly come back from the dead to kill them is genius, but the execution of the dead ringer was horrible, it really could’ve been a top tier item.

[@Selatapey]

It sounds good on paper till you have to fight someone 5 times in a row

[@Beckwourth]

0:25 missed opportunity for the ben 10 alien watch when the timer runs out sound to be played.

[@kylebooface6359]

Omnitrix*

[@ItsChevnotJeff]

Can you imagine if Spy got an item like in the TFC, where he can ragdoll either as himself or another player, and they can get back up to catch the enemy off guard. They get around 60% defense while Ragdolled, or, "playing dead", but afterburn, jarate and Mad Milk are still hazards

[@kerbonaut2059]

it sucked back in TFC because players would just shoot corpses all the time for free spychecks. Would also be busted bad against mastercomfig players who remove ragdolls, since the spy's ragdoll would have to exist, immediately revealing them.

[@denifnaf5874]

Ragdoll physics... in the goldsource?!

[@Mordecai02]

But you'd also have to be careful to hold still or else they might see your corpse jiggle, and if they catch on to you they can pin you down and crowbar you to death? Hmm, sounds like it might just work. We could put it in his context menu or something.

[@foodaah]

you can get around that by ragdolling off sight and in hidden places, where normally a spy would be seen, so you could get back up again an kill them

[@Conorthefarrington]

I think they should make the duration proportional to your health if you take 1 damage from the other side of the map it gives you 2 seconds but if you are in critical health it would last a little longer than normal, it would rewards you for faking your death but you can't run to the enemy without being immediately detected and killed Edit: And I realized that it also gives the spy a dilemma: should he activate the DR to avoid possibly fatal damage or take the hit and activate it later to have more time and a more realistic death and that's the kind of risk and reward that is fun and requires skill

[@The_D_ray]

That's actually a simple and clever fix not gonna lie.

[@haphaxion]

I was gonna suggest being marked for death after uncloaking but this works too

[@Conorthefarrington]

​@@The_D_rayThanks, I based it on the escape plan (:

[@AngelaG217]

I think this should be in the fishsticks rehab with maybe some changes. I cant say for sure. But this is an amazing idea for a fix

[@Conorthefarrington]

​@@haphaxionI don't think it would work, it doesn't fix the problem of being able to run at the enemy, absorb a lot of damage and disappear behind the enemy, wait for the effect to disappear and run at the enemy from behind and then win the game.

[@taiyana5194]

Step 1, use stock watch for a couple minutes step 2, use the dead ringer for one life step 3, switch back to stock step 4, chaos

[@YuuyaKZMI]

This is actually a good reason for me to have a DR loadout. Thanks.

[@Jackikins]

I remember when I first got this from a drop. I tried to use it like a normal invis-watch and thought it was just broken. Good times.

[@drainagepipe-4150]

A great era for Spy mains where no one Spychecks

[@matricious]

Was once accused of speed-hacking when a newbie activated it and got killed by yours truly 5 seconds later. Now it's just aimbot that gets the crowd roaring...

[@user-un2pf4ht9l]

What dead ringer was made for: hey look i die stop shooting What dead ringer truly is: *brute force*

[@solidsnake1ps421]

THANK GOD. i legit thought i was going insane trying to learn how to use the Deadringer. Im trying to learn all aspects of spy and thought deadringer was absolutely mandatory to learn. The only real way to use the deadringer is too risky for my preferred style IE using it for the simple speed boost or the counterintuitive of idea of using it to live longer, i cant even get to their teleporters using it lmao.

[@lieuty]

If you want to use it and spam it, decloak asap and 2 shot someone with the letranger, makes it useable on other knives than just the kunai

[@FFFr3sHHH]

It's actually pretty fun, even for non aggressive plays. Just needs to be used right

[@wesselvanharrewijn3082]

if you want to be a true silent assassin, fox hound spy, i would suggest either learning where all the ammo packs are or learning to play passive-aggressive with the cloak and dagger. i personally use the cloak and dagger because when i get caught i could stay in the same area, dodging their bullets and get away with it usually. ideally you would do that "go one way, then when fully cloaked go another" as it does confuse the enemy and make it so they chase an imaginary enemy. regular cloak is also good, but the downside is that you can't time your decloak with an enemy that is approaching, or deciding not to uncloak because a soldier just walked in from around the corner. enemies might notice you take an ammo pack, wich can lead to you getting caught. in my opinion, the cloak and dagger is the best option for learning the ropes and for a more patient playstyle. the regular cloak is for a more active speedy playstyle, with the downside of being caught more often if you dont play it right. and the dead ringer is an evil monster that should be kept inside of the basement until you've learned all that you can about spy and cloaking.

[@Jokervision744]

​@@FFFr3sHHHI can imagine some forced spooky boo ghost spies, that don't necessarily get stabs or kills.

[@Not_Zguy]

I love how jonto goes to the ammo box instinctively at 6:20

[@unclemanbun]

Get out of jail free card.

[@Kindletheflareon]

So true

[@wyattninja100]

Yes

[@goldenhorde6944]

Braindead Ringer

[@Spheecrab]

Fun fact: in tfc spy can fake his death. However in tfc you ARE the “dead” body (as in, you are stuck on the floor whilst faking your death)

[@thechickenchuck8621]

As someone who uses the DR a lot, because I love the Ambi and gun-spy in general, using it in knife centered loadouts has always been a little odd seeing as I’m not necessarily attempting to play that aggressively. However, I’ll still use it from time to time but I’ll always be a Cloak and Dagger main 😂

[@mal0561]

The one thing keeping me from using cloak and dagger is that the quackenbert has a duck on it and i think its cute

[@DerpyTC]

⁠@@mal0561quackenbert > any watch cause of the silly little duck

[@mal0561]

@@DerpyTC based and duckypilled

[@Eric4bz]

Any time I see a kunai/dr spy, I spam airblast to shove them into a corner until their DR is expired. Can't use speed bonus if they're off the ground. SPEAKING OF WHICH, the DR never gave speed bonus on its inception, meaning players could track you if they didn't buy your death and focus you down easily. Granted, pyros can still track you, even if you use the spycicle, due to the sound of burning wine and baguettes when the flame particles hit, but the speed buff wasn't needed.

[@c0mplex_Ale]

As a spy main I love being hated by you pyros so much

[@d-boi9785]

When used in the way it’s intended, the dead ringer is actually really cool and hard to predict. This is why I use it with the YER, because it’s a very rewarding experience.

[@samuelvitols8460]

As incredibly difficult as it is to do DR + YER because of not having easy access to EITHER of spies tools the result of using both of the items WELL yields an incredibly hard to deal with spy who if he is good at playing and acting unpredictably becomes exactly what spy should be at his core, in the best and most fun way possible, minus the continued existance of some really sad disguise bugs, LOOKING AT YOU DEMOMAN

[@JeffarryLounder]

Then you would've loved the old saharan spy set. It made your decloak sound COMPLETELY silent and made your cloaking faster. Pairing that with the eternal reward (pre-Jungle Inferno version which was arguably better than the one we have today) and DR back in the day used to be such a fun loadout. Unfortunately, it was nerfed simply because the method of activating the Saharan spy set was pay to win (purchase and use 2 or 3 cosmetics together to get extra power as spy).

[@ryu1863]

I love that the theme for gloomy manor from Luigi’s mansion dark was playing in this video you get a new sub

[@smugdodofart27]

friend of mine has a strange dead ringer, it straight up announces he’s still alive lmao also i love the sfm bits their filled with so much personality

[@rhodierider402]

Can you explain how the strange tells you he’s still alive?

[@UnlimitedRun]

@@rhodierider402 Strange Dead Ringers do not hide the server-wide announcement that happens when a Strange ranks up, which for Dead Ringers is the amount of deaths feigned.

[@MyouKyuubi]

those announcements stop once it reaches hale's own. xD

[@nosks_stopmotions]

Chad stock/CaD + Can go on command + Require skill + Arent the dead ringer + Mindgames + Can use ammo packs VS The Virgin Dead ringer - Requires no skill - Cant cloak on command - Is the dead ringer - Makes you stupidly predictable - Cant use ammo packs at all

[@25kamul]

I really like using it with the L'Etranger and the Big Earner, two speed boosts and a much longer cloak that is easy to recharge allows you to spam feign death and completely changes your playstyle into a more supportive one where you help your team by directing the enemies' attention from the objective to yourself.

[@irregularassassin6380]

God, that sounds so annoying! Like fighting a mosquito!

[@fusionreactor7179]

Yea works alright but the hp is always the worst thing. Kunai-dr is the only combo that gives spy any survivability

[@demi-femme4821]

At that point, why not play Scout?

[@barkerbarks2537]

@@demi-femme4821because scout doesn’t have a knife.

[@medicgaming101]

@@barkerbarks2537lol

[@nonamichek]

1:50 ULTRAKILL mentioned 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥

[@jacobgaming47]

thats doom text vro

[@m4teusgw10]

​@@jacobgaming47 ultrakill ost

[@jacobgaming47]

@@m4teusgw10 ah i understand mb

[@Sleepy_Cabbage]

a great fix id have in mind is to make the dead ringer drain its own cloak passively the longer you hold it out, that way you have the option of treating it like a parry against a specific move or a stealth option IF you can get the timing for it just right, otherwise you might decloak sooner then usual or even lose your cloak before you even get to use it.

[@b1rdy0xf]

That would require a buff to deploy speed

[@christopherstucke9063]

⁠@@b1rdy0xfit would, with a “undeploy” debuff

[@SeisoYabai]

The editing on this was phenomenal, far better than most TF2bers, or hell most KZbinrs in general. Excellent work all around

[@Thebonkinvestor]

you should do the series you wanted to do about map knowledge and what you can do on maps like: flanking, where to decloak, knowing where snipers and engineers are, and other stuff

[@StupidKit917]

02:17 unless you memorize how many kills you had before you killed the Spy and checking if the number moved up or not afterwards

[@goksenyenersoy8852]

I wish dead ringer was more of a burst movement option like a fake rocket jump instead of a get out of jail free card,it would be way more fun and creative

[@tangerinepaint3643]

So like L’Escampette from TF2C?

[@DashFlashTheLife]

@@tangerinepaint3643which should absolutely be added

[@tangerinepaint3643]

@@DashFlashTheLife If it had a harsher penalty such as taking *more* damage while cloaked instead of less it would be perfect imo.

[@DashFlashTheLife]

@@tangerinepaint3643 Yes!! I actually came up with some downsides for it, along with another upside- tell me what you think L'escampette 30% faster move speed while cloaked While cloaked, able to phase through enemy players 100% faster cloak drain rate -15% cloak on enemy contact No damage / debuff resistance while cloaked

[@mariustan9275]

I hink Great Blue suggsted this in his "if all classes had jumper weapons" video.

[@xdarin_]

8:55 This man is playing Spy even when he's _not_ playing Spy.

[@Chill0utFR]

Dead ringer = Average Trickstab Spy

[@Mig_V]

Real.

[@alexm9603]

I have an idea: What if the dead ringer made you unable to heal from ANYTHING but resupply cabnets for a certain amount of time after activating it, not sure how long but I was thinking a good 15-25 seconds should do the trick.

[@IronXan5150]

Bro became medic when he said *SPY HAS A GUN* 9:05

[@fr0g3man350]

I love how the petro is motionless and is perpendicular to the angle of his ground in the intro, youve earned my like for that one

[@TheHighStreetPunk]

9:41 I am going to turn it into scrap don’t worry and I am happy you told me this

[@superpwnageguy]

Remove the ability to decloak on command, like once it's triggered you have to wait it out. Means no more free speed boost to get stabs.

[@trashbeast]

concept for a different version of the dead ringer: parry dead ringer. it takes an additional second to cloak (2 seconds), and an additional .7 seconds to decloak (2.5 seconds). cloaking with a full meter consumes 10% of your meter instantly. however... if you have a full meter, there is a short window when you first cloak. if you are hit in that window you will feign death, gaining the speed boost and high damage reduction. this way, you have to actually. y'know. do something that takes effort in order to get the powerful effects, while not completely depriving you of regular cloak. for some more minor changes: -maybe the loud decloak should be done away with entirely? it definitely shouldn't trigger on regular decloaks. -i'm not sure if you should be able to recharge with ammo-packs with this watch. if you can, maybe there should be a seperate cool-down for the parry? -the sound and visual effect for the cloak should only start after the parry window. maybe the parry window could slightly extend into the sound and vfx so it's a bit easier to hit, at the cost of being easier to see through the feign?

[@princetbug]

YES separate regular cloak from the feign. That aspect is such a good idea. I feel like just that alone would fix so much about this weapon, making it better in the situations its supposed to be good and worse where it isnt (but currently is anyway because bad design)

[@JustAMonkeyNow]

Once I got the dead ringer I was so exited to use it then realized I was horrible with it. I quit TF2 for a long time till afterwards I just decided to hop back on and use the YER just for fun. Then I realized my kills were more than doubled than my deaths. I was playing so much more better and started chaining more stabs. My play style wasn't the major problem, it was the dead ringer that was my problem

[@johannesneumayer6041]

I would focus on things making the DR obvious. Kill tracker and HUD, for example. Maybe you could give it the ability to become semi-transparent like when you run out of cloak with the CAD, to allow for mind games.

[@avalonandpals]

An interesting Deadringer rework could be that the speed boost only applies if the game detects you running AWAY from the enemy players. this may not be possible w source spaghetti (idk, I don’t code) but it makes it so it’s used as an escape tool and discourages chaining

[@tyronecrossman5014]

So based on watching your videos the chances I would suggest is *allows the user to go invisible (but it only can remain invisible for half the cloak and faking your death still takes a full cloak) * after faking their death, the spy gets half a second of invulnerability before getting roughly the same damage vulnerability as the escape plan * the decloak sound is reduced to stock or quieter * The spy can pick up ammo to refill cloak but a large ammo box won’t fill 50% of it so it’s reduced be a bit (This would force spy’s to rely less on cloak and forcing themselves into a obviously dumb play and punish them if they try to face tank everything, but rewords people who actually fool their enemies

[@lopsidedpotato]

I think that would near bring it back to pre jungle inferno for the agro style. incentivizes instant decloaking and chain dead ringing.

[@tyronecrossman5014]

@@lopsidedpotato that’s actually why I specified that the you only get like a 10% charge from the biggest ammo boxes, so it’s only helpful for charging it ‘slightly’ faster or topping it of if you went invisible for a second

[@lopsidedpotato]

@@tyronecrossman5014 thats fair, I guess in combination with the vulnerability you'd get shredded before you get a second pack. My thought was even then, a full pack and a stab brings you to like

[@MyouKyuubi]

Nah, your idea sucks. Mine's better... The dead ringer activates only when the spy would otherwise die, protecting him from death, leaving him with 1 health remaining. He is invulnerable for the entire cloak duration, and cannot shimmer... But he CAN be affected by visual status effects... They don't do any damage, as the spy is immune to damage, but the effects allow you to SEE the spy at least... Of course the effects don't last for long, because their durations are reduced by 50% while the spy is invisible. Activating cloak doesn't have any initial consumption of the cloak meter (as it currently has). Decloaking, resets the entire cloak meter to 0, giving the item a fixed cooldown period That can only be altered by special items, like the Big Earner, and the L'Etranger. Decloak noise the same as normal invis watches. This way, you can't activate it whenever you want, and it truly serves the purpose of faking your death... it also makes the kunai spy strat, EXTREMELY risky, as decloaking in the middle of a fight with 1 health is... a harrowing experience. This will most likely cause the spy meta to become a DR, Big Earner, and Diamondback, or Dr. BigBack... But since we're theoretically changing items already, i propose the Ambassador have it's nerfs removed and moved to the Diamondback instead... So the meta becomes a perfect split between the Diamonback, The Ambassador, and the L'Etranger. And of course, remove the wallhack-on-spawn effect, so spies can finally catch a break... And remove random crits, so that deaths and kills feel fair and deserved... And give back the old server systems of voting, and joining the spectator team, or the opposite team if you want (and there is space on opposite team for you) in casual, with those options ONLY removed in competitive lobbies. These changes would fix the game and make it fun to play TF2 again. :]

[@tyronecrossman5014]

@@MyouKyuubiI think that’s just amplifying the traits it already has rather then making it so it fits the role it was supposed to fit better, though it’s hard to write about a purely hypothetical weapon that has zero glitches and perfect execution with a perfect come community that plays how you want them to. The cooldown change doesn’t change anything though since the current dead ringer’s cloak is effectively a cooldown (you can’t use it until it it’s cloak is refilled and you can’t use ammo packs to refill it

[@CamilleCode]

I love that you use ultrakill music, it fits so well in a lot of places

[@Fluxuation]

I feel like a good rework for the watch is for the damage resistance to scale depending on what health you were at when you pulled it out. Starting off with a taking MORE damage above 100 health for 3 seconds , but some resistance around 70 health or so, for 3 seconds, a LOT of resistance at 40 health or so for 3 seconds, and complete invulnerability for 3 seconds at around 20 health. It rewards spies for actually faking their death with invul to either make an escape or go into enemy lines, while punishing them for abusing it as a tank with the damage increase at higher health. Of course, it should scale with the kunai and big earner, because obviously.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

rework it into tfc spys feign, ez.

[@OmegaRC59]

I think its biggest issue is that it can't design-wise actually be the watch it wants to because sneaking behind good players is incredibly restrictive with its fairly short range of movement and loud-ass decloak. In fact, I almost think that decloak is more important in its current balance than the faking of your death, it makes it so even a spy attempting to use it aggressively is just simply going to fool nobody. Gunspy uses this watch closer to its intended use case and that's kind of hilarious lmao. Nothing encourages you to fake your death and then use that against your opponent. But getting hit and repositioning 20 feet away from them to shoot them to death? Much closer to how it wanted to be designed

[@Fluxuation]

@@OmegaRC59 what I find funny about the dead ringer is it becomes a subclass enabler. Similar to the shield for demoknight, gunslinger for battle engi, or market gardener for trolldier, the gunspy almost NEEDS the dead ringer to even work well.

[@OmegaRC59]

@@Fluxuation Yeah though I think, as a gunspy main myself, it doesn't really matter too much how it works more than just being a useful escape tool and reload speed booster (haha funny right click twice while reloading), the way it works right now is just incredibly inhibitive to knife spy unless you're intentionally not going to care about fooling people at all. For gunspy, not a huge deal, especially if you use the spycicle and just focus on shooting. So tl;dr even if it worked differently it would still be the best watch for gun usage no matter how the stats end up tweaked (within reason). Faking your death guarantees an escape if you're near your team as long as the situation isn't too stupid

[@ZeroXMachlna]

I think it should give you a speed boost depending on how much damage triggered the effect, the bigger the damage, the longer the speed boost, however you get marked for death because you faked your death, also I would have it longer to raise and put down. I like the mind games it introduces because the two players have two options: the spy could either raise it hoping they go for the kill or shoot or trick stab if they go for a weak hit to shorten the speed boost.

[@LunaireTD]

I think an interesting way to rework dr would be to reward actually fooling enemies with the feign death. Keep the damage resist at the beginning and keep it high for the first 2 seconds of cloak but no resist after that, keep speed boost, get rid of loud decloak or maybe make it even quieter but on decloak mark for death for 3 seconds. However this mark for death ends early upon getting a kill. This would mean you need to either use it to get all the way out, or fool your enemy and get a clean kill. Mindlessly using it to tank damage then uncloak is a terrible idea and will only get you killed faster. This would also reward enemy players who successfully predict where the dr spy goes after feign death.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

This failed what you wanted to do, the normal sound or quieter decloak means you wouldn't want to use it to get all the way out and it would be easier to fool an enemy and get a clean kill. Tanking damage and uncloaking with or without this will get you kill. You've more or less buffed the Dead Ringer.

[@drogoz4042]

How the fuck this has 16 likes on it lol

[@LunaireTD]

@@Buglin_Burger7878 this comment feels like you only read half the proposed change lol. Also the idea wasnt to make it so only one option was good, but both of them and you have to choose which.

[@thymecrafter]

this is kinda just a buff hidden in mainly meaningless downsides

[@terrancesean6191]

Your SFM skills and editin in general have improved so much man, keep up the great content and hope to see your ideas on how to fix it!

[@Sword_Scout]

Man been waiting since forever for this! I dont play dead ringer because i like it... I play it because it makes people mad

[@breadcypher5728]

I'm crying you put Blank by Disfigure there at 2:50 YOU PUT IT AGAIN AT 4:01

[@conormadde146]

0:19 Is that a reference to team fabulous 2?

[@CyborgCharlotte]

5:57 “Does this look like the face of mercy?”

[@YourYoungGDYter]

looking for this

[@sambuxton931]

The dead ringer seems like it would be a really cool weapon in a single player stealth game rather than a multiplier game

[@MyouKyuubi]

No, such dynamics are only fun, because you're actively fooling real people... it wouldn't be fun in a singleplayer game, as you wouldn't be fooling real people, NPC's would just be going through the motions of what they were programmed to do. Lemme use an analogy, here: 1. You pull a magic-trick in front of a human being, making a coin in your hand, just disappear into thin-air, seemingly... And it feels satisfying because of the way they react, which is completely dynamic. 2. You pull the same trick in front of a robot, that is programmed to react a specific way when you do the trick, so the reaction is always the same, and it will never be different, regardless of how well or poorly you do it.

[@sambuxton931]

@@MyouKyuubi I was thinking more of using it as a get out of jail free card. In a multiplayer game it’s just annoying but in a stealth game akin to something like dishonoured it would be really fun. Got spotted? Pop the dead ringer and now the enemies think you’re dead allowing you to make a getaway and refresh your approach without having to load a quick save (something I find kills my enjoyment in a lot of stealth based games) The point you make about tricking people are fair but in practice you don’t get fooled by the dead ringer. 99% of the time you can tell that your 12 damage pistol shot didn’t kill the spy and even when used in a more realistic scenario, you can check your K/D to see if you secured a kill, something I do practically every time I kill a spy

[@MyouKyuubi]

@@sambuxton931 "I was thinking more of using it as a get out of jail free card." ... We are on the same page here, good sir... I'm making the point that what you find exciting in a singleplayer game, is sorta, unique to you. "Huehuehue, i sure am fooling these NPC's that are programmed to fall for the trick! Such fun, much wow!" that's what i imagine you sound like playing a single-player game with this mechanic. :P "In a multiplayer game it’s just annoying" It's only annoying if you have an entitled mindset when it comes to being able to kill your targets. You are not entitled to kills, the end. Once you relize that, and get rid of your entitlement, the feign death mechanic isn't annoying, it's literally part of the gameplay loop, a little mini-mindgame inside the game. In other words, it's fun! "Got spotted? Pop the dead ringer and now the enemies think you’re dead allowing you to make a getaway and refresh your approach without having to load a quick save" This mechanic is already in skyrim... Once you reach a certain level of sneak in skyrim, you'll be able to get away from combat by stealthing inside shadows right in front of NPC's, like you just vanish, and the NPC's will just go "Huh? Where'd he go?!"... This isn't actually fun to DO, so much as it's fun to laugh as how dumb the AI of the NPC's is. :P What you're describing, isn't any mechanically different from that skyrim mechanic... the NPC's don't know the difference between a feign death, and a vanish... They're mechanically identical from an NPC's perspective... So adding a fake corpse is juist a cosmetic addition. Now, such a mechanic would never weork against a real player, do you know why? because players have object permanence... NPC's don't... Players are intelligent, NPC's arent. That's why feign death, only works in multiplayer, and is only satisfying against players... Only players get fooled by the addition of a corpse... If the DR only made you instantly vanish, they would ALWAYS know that you survived, and wouldn't cease the chase, ever... Until you die... But since it also spawns a corpse, there's a high chance they actually think you're dead, and just go elsewhere... Depending on the situation, and the player, the reaction is always different, even if there are only slight variations... AKA, DYNAMIC. But against NPC's, the reaction is always the same, with no variation... Therefore, it isn't fun... because it's STATIC. So no, it wouldn't be "more fun" in single-player games... You just don't have good taste... I mean come on, bro, even the way you explained it was basically "Think about it, you push 1 button, and you solve a problem... Doesn't that sound fun?" UUUUH, NO! I prefer a button, that COULD solve a problem, but only if i use it correctly... Keeps things fresh, and pushes me into becoming a better gamer. Apaprently, you have no interest in that, hence your hard-on for single-player games. "The point you make about tricking people are fair but in practice you don’t get fooled by the dead ringer." Haha, that's cute, thinking the DR can only trick people in one way. :] it doesn't necessarily have to make trick people into thinking you're dead, my homie... You're naïve, if you think that's all the DR can, or should do. :P This is a multiplayer game we're talking about, therte's a lot of nuance, and specifics you're not taking into account here! "you can check your K/D to see if you secured a kill, something I do practically every time I kill a spy" Lmao, you actually check the scoreboard to see if you killed the spy or not? Loser mentality... You're too focused on the spy, my homie, take a chill pill, enjoy the game... the DR is loud, if you didn't kill the spy, you will know in like 5 second after you "allegedly" killed it. There's no reason to check the scoreboard. xD Did you know, your greatest weapon against a spy, is YOUR FKING EARS? You don't even need to SEE the spy, you just need to listen for decloak sounds, and footsteps that come from directions where there are no players. :P Typically listening for decloak sounds, is more than enough. : / The reality is, when you make a DR spy pop their DR, they will be gone for about just as long as it takes for a dead spy to respawn, as they are not likely to return again, unless their DR is ready to go again... And if they do, well, you'll know when to watch out for them if you hear the decloaking noise... So either way, you win... A spy can only get you, if you aren't paying attention, it is the weakest class in the game, it is not OP, and does not require nerfs (There are only two nerfs of the DR that were justified, the ammo-pickup regen, and the saharan spy set bonus that made the DR decloak sound silent, all other nerfs for the DR, were completely uncalled for, but happened because enough newbies like yourself, cried like babies about it, instead og getting good at the game), YOU just need to be better at the game, that is all, if you die to a spy, it is ALWAYS YOUR OWN FAULT. : / So... when you say DR spies annoy you, what you're actually saying, is that you're incompetent at the game, that you're mad, 'cus you're bad. :S Back in my day, i never struggled against DR spies... They DR'ed, i moved on with my life, instead of obsessing over whether or not i killed them... If i hear the decloak sound nearby, i move towards the lcoation where i heard the noise, if i spot the spy, it dies, if i don't spot the spy, it moved on with it's life too... Win-win... If i hear the decloak sound far away, it probably doesn't care about me anymore anyway, so, i move on with my life. Your obsession with whether or not you killed the spy, stems from you feeling entitled to kills, like you were owed a kill, because he feigned death... That is a flaw in your mentality, not the game, and certainly not the enemy player either.

[@MyouKyuubi]

@@sambuxton931 Skyrim already has that function down... if your sneaking skill is high enough, you can obtain a perk that makes is so that if you start sneaking, inside a shadow, even right in front of NPC's faces in the middle of combat, you "vanish" and get a "GOOJF-card". :P

[@khaas9]

Metal Gear Solid 3 had pill that let you fake your death. The catch is if you didn't activate the antidote fast enough you'd be actually dead.

[@Idog92010]

I love the ultrakill music in the background. You should make some ultrakill vids

[@SourceEnginePlayer]

0:20 guenuinely made me laugh out loud

[@FairPlayClubChads]

The intro was pure gold🙌🔥❤

[@fractalisomega9517]

Personally I think the Cloak and Dagger is a good beginner Cloak watch, but more forgiving in that it lets players pick their opportunities with no time constraint... once they learn the flow of the game the Stock is what they need to move to, while keeping the Dead Ringer as a sort of "Spice pick" to throw off enemies Watch rotation is key to being a strong spy, if you get predictable then you lose... but if your enemy gets complacent then you have the upper hand

[@getaround1276]

I feel the c and d can create bad habits in newer players, just sticking with stock is probably the best, maybe use the letranger if you really have cloak issues.

[@ethandavis7310]

Stock is def the best for learning. C&D builds bad habits as well. I often see 0-point spies in lobbies standing in one place for a whole match

[@princetbug]

A "spice pick" is exactly what DR should be

[@fractalisomega9517]

@@ethandavis7310 Honestly I'd say that's just fine... let them safely watch and go for plays when they're ready... it's mostly for brand new players that still need to learn the flow of the game, where to hide, and when a good time to uncloak is... Stock is better for putting that into motion, and DR is best just to mix things up... CD can work alongside of Stock use to keep the enemy team guessing as well... but that's much later down the road

[@fractalisomega9517]

@@getaround1276 Starting with Stock will get them used to it's mechanics first, and the CD will give them more leniency with their cloaking hiding CD still has a unique playstyle that the Stock can't replicate, but it's more diversion oriented and better for unmoving maps like CTF where disruption and harassment of the defensive line can be more valuable than getting kills...

[@An_Average_Arsonist]

Honestly i kinda love this idea of mobillity at the exchange of survivability, but the dead ringer is in this state of flux where taking more damage would kill you, Ive never been a fan of subtractive balancing, but ive put a good half hour into thinking this up, so here goes! raising the watch and activating it on damage recived then mitigating it offers little counterplay, but not actually dying is the core of the weapons design, so it needs to offer something in exchange for taking damage. My first change, is instead of subtracting 50% of cloak on activation, the watch simply drains over time while raised, if not damaged over 4 seconds, the watch is out of cloak and lowers. So a savy opponent can simply wait out your bad positioning instead of forcibly rewarding it. This also rewards the spy for timing it, as a perfect prediction of damage rewards a longer feign. This provides the counterplay if spy makes it too obvious. It still must be fully charged to be raised. Second, instead of damage resistance, the dead ringer will provide 100 points of temporary hp, for each 10 points of temporary hp spy has (after the feign,) he is slowed by 3%. for each missing 10 points, he moves 6% faster. Temporary hp remains for the full duration of the cloak, lost on cloak exit. For example at 50 dmg taken, spy will move 15% faster, at 70 dmg taken he moves 33% faster, at 100 dmg taken he moves 60% faster. This creates another point of counterplay, HEAVILY punishing the use of the deadringer on chip dmg, but greatly rewarding you for taking a large chunk of damage. If you take a risk, you get rewarded, if not, you get punished. Theres a small caveat of hitscans and damage overtime countering it, so im adding a co-factor that the temporary hp counts as lost if your health was lost before you raised the watch. Lets say you take 100 damage from a flamethrower, now at 25 health you raise the dead ringer, gaining 100 Temporary hp, you feing death at the first instance of damage, lets say its just afterburn, so 4. At 121 hp you do not gain the slow for the 96 points of temporary hp, but to gain the movement speed you will still have to take those 96 points of damage. Each 10 rewarding 6% still. This actually amps the movement speed curve to be linear giving more movement speed than normal curve at higher values, but since you came close to death to get it i think its a fair boon. This change HUGELY rewards a spy for toting the line of life and death, when used effectively it inadvertently makes the deaths believable too, and this is by design. An obvious fake death massively slows you, making you even more predictable. But a convincing death grants exceptional speed. Last change is to the decloak, for each 10 temporary hp remaining at the end of the cloak, the decloak is heard 25% farther, for each 10 temporary hp lost, the decloak is heard 20% less far. (The audible radius is larger or smaller depending on how much temporary hp you have, a unconvincing death playing a very audible decloak) At 50 remaining thp the decloak is actually 25% more audible, but a perfect feign of 0 thp is SILENT. This again rewards spy for taking damage and risking death, adding skill and critical thinking to his exchanges with other players. Hopefully you all like these changes, it took about 2 hours to do the maths and craft the comment, thanks for reading this far!

[@princetbug]

This sounds like a great idea! More RISK vs reward is just what the weapon needs. I would worry about Kunai users still exploiting the extra HP, though. The slowdown might be enough of a deficit, but it's worth some thought.

[@An_Average_Arsonist]

@@princetbug not to worry! This is a straight up nerf to the survivability of kunai users, the 75% dr, and 3 second decaying 65% dr is FAR more survivability than the rework, the cloak still gives the default 20% dr, but even then you cant survive 3 rockets, where as the dead ringer allows tanking 4, 170 health is pitiful compared to its 280 equivalent hp.

[@princetbug]

@@An_Average_Arsonist excellent

[@TheTdw2000]

TFC Spy had the ability to fake his death by pretending to be a corpse. I would much rather see something like that than the current rendition of the Dead Ringer.

[@MyouKyuubi]

They should make it so the corpse only takes damage from tbags... So you have to tbag every spy you suspect might not really be dead, in order to kill it. xD 3 tbags should make a spy die from cringe, imho (from full health)... Having someone dip their nutsack in your mouth 3 times would make any man die from shame, lmao!

[@-RandomStranger-]

I always wanna see TFC gameplay and info about it but I keep getting that dang mod for tf2

[@saxeladude]

I've been waiting forever for this video I hope there's going to be a re-balance discussion

[@rossclose4945]

I feel like an easy fix is to have the resistance for 2 secs then have a damage vulnerability (like marked for death) for the rest of the time, giving you a SMALL amout of time to get out of enemie fire, but if you pull it out in a stupid time then you will get recked because the reduction does not last that long and after that you become more vulnerable.

[@batorstudio]

its funny cuz the idea of the deadringer was in tfc but you could fake your death anytime

[@emanuelacola726]

I think a cool idea would be that when you open the Deadringer it has a timer of one second before forcibly getting closed and unable to being used for a few seconds. That would at least give true counterplay for the observant enemy while also rewarding a good sense of timing from the spy. (Maybe give better/longer buffs whenever it's activated if you think the "risk vs reward" is not good)

[@ethandavis7310]

That's a good idea.

[@Cheeser409]

Make it Like this: %40 more speed when cloaked Marked for death when cloaked and 3 seconds after it And %50 speed loss after uncloak for 3 seconds after uncloak Enemy has no way of knowing if they shot you for 3 seconds Can be used the cloak on demand but that has %50 cloak drain And %50 movement speed when cloaked manually but no ragdoll dropped also %50 less movement speed after cloak over for 3 seconds Ammo packs fill %50 less cloak then other watches This will cause good posion on the fly as they have to learnt to uncloak in a good spot and make their death convicting or they will be shot at and since they are marked for death that would end up with them dead and they can’t run with the movement speed loss

[@Introbulus]

Here's a simple idea on how to redesign the dead ringer to give it all the attributes it should have, and eliminate the janky play it currently has. > Dead Ringer no longer reduces damage or adds speed > When you hold out the Dead Ringer, you *can* still trigger cloak on damage like before - but you can also activate the cloak manually like other watches > Cloak charge is somewhere between stock and C&D, and ammo packs can recharge it Now you might look at this all and say to yourself "Well that's just like the other invis watches except you can fake your death". And in my opinion, that's what it *should* be. The main draw of this weapon should be the ability to trick your enemies into thinking you've died - *not* in surviving otherwise fatal scenarios by pressing 5. And you may also ask yourself "But what about the L'Etranger/Kunai/Dead Ringer combo?" L'Etranger will have to just be the most useful utility revolver in the game, sad story I know. And Kunai spies will just have to learn to actually position themselves properly on maps. Will spies get caught up in chokes because of this? Yes. But should spies have had a free 'get through choke' card in the first place? Absolutely not.

[@ouroya]

rewatching this video before your rebalancing ideas video and i really love your editing style, especially the titlecards!

[@rapidreload8]

4:22 no.

[@YourYoungGDYter]

you can use this now

[@Darkholderthy1st]

Engineer be like

[@alface935]

In TFC Spy did have a "Fake Death" Feature by dropping the player camera in the ground where it can stay as long as You wanted to be with a Buttom to "Stop Faking Death" which makes the player return to playing the game from the place the camera was drop into - No Invisibility - No Damage needed to start the Faking Death - No Damage Resistence

[@princetbug]

Oooh, that's a really cool hiding tool too! And less likely to be abused to just run into fights

[@alface935]

@@princetbug True

[@Vibinginthedarkness]

One thing I think could counter the bad habits the DeadRinger enforces is to replace the Damage Resistence with Damage Vulnerability. Like, keep the resistance for the hit that activates the dead ringer, but have all further damage be stronger, ala marked for death. This way it's core mechanic is left in-tact, but the player is punished for getting out-of-position and just drawing tons of attention, as every point of damage after the first is liable to send them directly to the respawn counter.

[@RGBHD404]

With how difficult it is to kill a good spy with projectile weapons with the speed boost, it would make sense

[@GeorgePtacek]

I love how I can tell the Martincritopants influence on your sense of humor and editing.

[@bc6504]

4:15 conscientious objector works fine since you deal psychological damage

[@NevercityO]

A change that i would suggest is that right click now instantly pops the dead ringer. Whith this there is now more to think on faking death and it removes the first part of the resistance. No more waiting for the enemy to shoot you. Its more a chooce now.

[@princetbug]

I like this idea. Not only more versatile, but also more skill-based.

[@shybandit521]

I think the bonuses you get on feign should scale depending on the strength of attack triggering it and the health at which you used it. Huge bonuses if used to barely graze death because you tanked a pipe at 50 health and were left at 25, but barely any reward if you use it on a single pistol shot while at full HP. Would be hard to accurately scale in a good way that doesn't feel somewhat random but idk it would still be an improvement

[@DisgruntledFinnegan]

Great video. I like deep dives into "weapon psychology," so this was right up my alley. I think a good couple of tweaks to help balance the dead ringer would be: 1: Damage resistance is 20% immediately rather than starting at 60%. 2: The initial 75% damage reduction on the triggering attack is removed, meaning that the Dead Ringer can only fake death on an attack that the spy would have survived. This opens some interesting avenues for counterplay, with explosive weapons being much better at dealing with the Dead Ringer. It would also turn the Direct Hit into a hard counter, allowing soldiers to instantly kill spies regardless of the Dead Ringer.

[@linusettetechnotops1711]

Theres lots of different ways you can track a dead ringer spy. Flame particles, Kunai overheal particles and disguise smoke stay for a while after they've feigned death. The crit and minicrit marker also track an undisguised spy. Theres the Bombinomicon that gibs on the invis spy after a short while and if you've got good hearing, you can follow the spy's death sound.

[@ConnorTheUndying]

Ultrakill music followed by A Hat in Time music? Subbed.

[@gaidencastro9706]

My own fix for the dead ringer (as a spy main) would be to make it so you can't exit cloak for a few seconds after it triggers. That way it functions less like a health meter that recharges with ammo and more as an exit plan.

[@cyfiitsgametime4176]

I feel like an idea could be: On right click, feign death and cloak. But no kill feed message

[@PyroGaming...]

you know that a spy weapon is hated when even a spy main agrees

[@kuzyera]

a spy main that is absolutely terrible at spy. has reddit tier opinions and shallow understanding of how spy works

[@CannyBow]

@@kuzyera legit

[@drogoz4042]

Ok now ask a spy main whos good at the game

[@princetbug]

​@tf2kuzya How can you even support your point about this person being bad at spy? You're just basing it off the fact they don't like DR because you're butthurt you got called out for using a weapon that rewards bad gameplay or some bullshit knee-jerk reasoning.

[@kuzyera]

@@princetbug no, because i saw his commentary video and saw how incompetent he was.

[@Brown95P]

Honestly, with people already being so used to spychecking after "killing" a Spy, the concept of faking your death is not really practical anymore; that being said, not all hope is lost for the watch as there are still ways to make an enemy fall for a "dead ringer", and l happen to have one such idea. This new dead ringer would have some stats left over from the current one -- such as the cloak time, the instant cloaking & debuff removal, the 3 sec speed boost & unflickering, the full cloak bar requirement, and the 50% cloak loss on use -- but would otherwise be completely different in function, as the feigning death mechanic would be completely replaced with another mechanic: creating a decoy player, while cloaking the user, upon immediate activation of the watch, without the need to take any damage. This decoy player would take the form of the disguise you had before using the watch, enemy or ally, and either run in the direction you were running or stand still if you did so before using it, lasting for 7 seconds before slowly cloaking itself away into oblivion. The decoy would only have 80% of your max health regardless of any overheal you have and could be damaged & debuffed by the enemy team, creating a ragdoll of you or an ally upon death depending on the disguise used, complete with a kill feed; if the user had any debuffs before using the watch, they will be given to the decoy immediately upon activation. Lastly, this decoy would also completely fool all machines, whether they be sentries or mvm robots -- instantly removing all aggro from the user in the latter case -- and it could also not be interacted with your allies in any shape or form, such as healing or buffs. As for the user himself, on top of the above stats kept from the previous version, his decloak sound would also only be as loud as the C&D one and he would also be able to refill his cloak from ammo in a limited way like the C&D, but he would also have no damage reduction on the full cloak unlike the other watches, and he also wouldn't be immune to debuffs after cloaking unlike the current DR. l think that's about all the bases covered with this idea, but feel free to bring up any potential contigencies l may not have thought about with this.

[@princetbug]

Hmmm! I like this idea SO much more than the actual DR! Its so much more of a "Spy" feeling thing, to generate a clone. It also removes the speed boost and damage resistance issue. Basically just worst stock with a decoy option sounds super fun. Hell the Kunai spies would probably still even like it for how "Ninja" making a decoy is.

[@Brown95P]

​​@@princetbug Well, not quite. This new DR would still have the speed boost -- mostly for the purposes of desyncing from your decoy regardless of knife choice -- but yes, all dmg reduction would be removed as a trade-off for said speed boost, and the decoy only having 80% of your max hp and no overheal means that if someone finds the kunai decoy to be too frail, it could still be feasible to catch up to the kunai user, while also ensuring that it doesn't fool a sentry for too long; this is also why l'd make the decoy uninteractable by allies, so that a Medic couldn't just flash an uber on it to keep an enemy sentry occupied for longer.

[@Brown95P]

​@@princetbug Sorry for the double reply, but l thought it was worth it since l forgot to do it on the first one. So actually, something clicked in my mind when Jontohil brought up the concept of cloak misdirections in this video, and then when l thought about misdirection as a weapon concept, what came to mind were the inflatable decoys of Snake you can place in MGS5, at which point the pieces pretty much just put themselves together in my head; so yeah, you can thank Kojima for this idea. 😂

[@immortalaxolotl]

Maybe the dead ringer could be changed so that you can only ready it in short bursts. Something like 0.5-1 second, and you can't put it back down early. After that, you can't retry for another 3-5. Something like that. It probably wouldn't completely fix the issue, but I think it might be better.

[@mr.shadow818]

The dead ringer, kunai and diamondback are what I and friends call “the spy in training” loadout. Kunai: For spies who cant survive after 1 stab due to bad awareness, timing and positioning (Most knifes suffer from it but u need skills with the others to get around, here not much) Dead ringer: Spies that are too aggro and/or simply cant survive more than 1 stab (Refer to kunai) Diamondback: Spies who must get positive reinforcement on dojng what a spy should be doing by needing the insentive of crits to do said role. Also a get out hail free card after, you guessed it, one stab since now they dont have to go for another and can just tap an enemy. Basically whenever we see a spy with said loadout we dont judge hard, we just know is a guy who wants to get into spy more but whose skills arent there yet and need their hand held. (Dont take this too seriously lmao)

[@princetbug]

That's a more gracious way of looking at it. Unfortunate how many good spies abuse the training-wheels, though.

[@sircatangry5864]

In my opinion, spy doesn't need any super powerful cloaks or knifes. Or gun that can one shot some classes. What spy needs, is improvement of his, well, spy tools. Making spy being able to fake shoots, reloads, I'd go as far as give him ability to use enemy voice chat and chat in general, so everyone can believe that he is "real" teammate. And make him more powerful at way so when he reaveals himself, he takes reward for his manipulations. That's, that's how i want spy to be, not trickstabing amby guy, but master of disguise an fooling enemies.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

give him the hallucination grenade like tfc

[@ignaciopizarro97]

Or allow the spy to place fake sentry guns when he disguises as an engie

[@pyro111100]

If they removed the chat bubble for spy while he's cloaked, it would also encourage more teamwork as the spy could call stuff out without having a giant "HERE I AM" sign literally over his head.

[@ZephyrioxTWW]

The dead ringer should only provide you with the cloak when you get to 50 health or below and only give you invisibility and a slight speed boost for about 3 seconds.

[@lol1013]

The idea i had to fix dead ringer is to reverse how it works, instead of starting with 100% invisibility, you have 0% and you have to build it up by taking damage with DR out, and you will go invisible as soon as you press M2 again. You would have armor when DR is out and not when you are invisible

[@jackhumphries1087]

I think just remove the damage resistance(not the initial hit damage resistance, just the damage resistance afterward), forcing the spy to actually think about when and where to use it.

[@berniespy]

What no chains does to a mf

[@tf2exordium]

legitttt

[@bpepsitropper8512]

At least he plays Spy as a Spy instead of a insta kill tank Go play Hightower

[@berniespy]

@@bpepsitropper8512 *leans back in chair, grins* Yeeeupppp we got a DR abuser on our hands. Probably loves kunai too. Another win for JontoHil and the boys. pack -Pack

[@rawccoon]

LOL REAL

[@tf2exordium]

@@bpepsitropper8512 hightower is shit

[@KtooooYaaa1337]

4:02 i wanna see real video with this

[@ekris5072]

It still confuses me how the spies that run the “most hated loadout” seem to use the letranger more than the diamondback despite all the shit the diamondback receives for being OP

[@00coolman1]

It's usually because they can't aim revolver shots. Doesn't matter you do 102 damage if the shot doesn't land.

[@princetbug]

​@@00coolman1That and a longer, potentially regeneratable cloak is always useful. If their goal is to tank damage and spam trickstabs anyway, why bother with the gun? Lettanger's main boost is passive.

[@leonhardtbelgar2468]

Because Diamondback can crit through the spy's own disguise

[@codytachi]

Remember that at one point, the dead ringer would save you from being BACKSTABBED

[@MyouKyuubi]

Uhm, people seem to forget that the Dead Ringer, was the only item that used to make spies viable, in competitive games... In Pubs, balance doesn't actually matter, because anything will work well on newbies, but in competitive, the Dead Ringer was the only item that allowed spies to effectively handle enemies, AT ALL, even if the successrate was small. xD The only way to use spies in competitive now, is for, what SCOUT is technically meant to do... to scout out enemy compositions and strategies. Spy needs a buff, not a nerf, and the dead ringer, wasn't as bad as newbies made it out to be, back then, either... You are not entitled to kills... So you don't NEED to kill the spy, what you NEED is to make the spy go away, for about as long as it takes for a spy to respawn... The dead ringer was like that when they first made it so you couldn't pick up ammo to regenerate it, back then the DR was perfectly balanced, and didn't need any further changes... But then they went ahead and nerfed the damage mitigation to the point where it's useless as a death-faking watch as well, so now, the DR is absolutely useless, in every way, unless, you have 200+ health, which is something only kunai spies get to have. So the DR only become a viable choice, when combined with the kunai, that is VERY BAD... When an item, RELIES on ANOTHER item, in order to be viable, that's when you know they've nerfed it too far... items should be viable on their own merit, without having to rely on other items. :P Spy is the weakest class, and even with the DR in it's MOST OP form, back in the Saharan Spy days, when the DR gave a permanent 80% damage mitigation during cloak, and you copuld pickl up ammo to fill up the DR meter, and the Saharan Spy set made the Dead Ringer decloak sound SILENT... Even back then, it was relatively easy to deal with a DR spy, of course, the silent decloak getting nerfed, i totally agreed with, not because it was OP, necessarily (i mean it WAS OP, but that's not why i agreed on the nerf), but because it was superflous, it didn't need it. :P I've NEVER understood why people complained about spy, he's always been easy to deal with, and i've never understood why people have this idea that they're ENTITLED to killing the spy, when they shoot it... Literally their entire argument was "I SHOT HIM, HE SHOULD BE DEAD! *Cries like a fking newborn baby*"... Bitch, you want 1-and-done kills? Play counter strike, holy fking sht, leave TF2 alone, omg! Of course, the devs were total pushovers... So they bent over backwards for these absolute fking loser crybabies that can't handle some back-and-forth type of gameplay... Anyways, all you gotta do to deal with spies, is use your fking ears... It's that easy, even if spy is invisible, you can hear his footsteps and pretty much home in on him with 90% accuracy... So invisibility should be far less effective than it is... But because people don't use their heads, and THINK about strategy, or counter-play, they just want this brain-dead gameplay where they don't have to think, because of that, we gotta deal with a spy that is balanced to be so competitively incompetent, it sees practically no real use in competitive. A spy can only get you, when you're NOT paying attention... SO every time a spy kills you, it is ALWAYS your fault.... That's what people don't understand about spy... Spy is the weakest class in the game, if you get your ass handed to you by a spy, you're at fault.... Not the spy... The spy isn't OP, the spy isn't unfair, you're just lacking in the mental activity department, that is all. The DR, needs a buff, just ONE buff, would instantly make it viable again... give back a permanent like... say 65% damage reduction while the cloak is active, or up the initial damage mitigation back to like 90%... That is all it needs... it doesn't need ammo-pickups, because the idea of the DR having a flat cooldown period, is actualyl really good, it means that, even if the spy didn't get kileld, the spy can no longer do any risky moves for about as long as it would take for the spy to respawn from a proper death, meaning the spy is effectively DEALT WITH, even if it doesn't die. People need to STOP obsessing over kills, just because you didn't KILL the spy, doesn't mean you didn't DEAL with him. You are NOT entitled to kills, so stop asking for spy to get nerfed, just because you are too much of a slack-wit to use yoru head, and too much of a p*ssy to deal with some healthy paranoia. :P

[@goldenhorde6944]

Generalist meta is going to be the death of the game :p

[@DMphobia]

Man this new Spychology episode looks great.

[@lore3127]

I honestly think the dead ringer is perfect as it already is. It would be cool if it would heal you a bit upon activating it, just like it used to do before they nerfed it. But great video.

[@arc5015]

Is this, the new lazy purple 😲, very good video man.

[@soursylveon4784]

The only nerf the Deadringer needs is to count as deaths on your stats and end your killstreak whenever you activate it. We all know that’s why spy’s use it in the first place.

[@Gavlavyus_Rumi]

Spy is already weak class I don't think it newds nerfs:D

[@fynylf]

Ok, hear me out, Dead Ringer rebalance: -No damage resistance while cloaked -Longer cloak (10 seconds?) -The ability to activate it without damage, by for example holding it out for 3-5 seconds, so it can be used to more like stock but shorter. This would not grant the speed boost, but would not activate the louder decloak either.