TF2: The Official Scout Weapons Tier List

[@snifflysara3065]

Reasons I use the Sandman: A) It looks cool B) The taunt kill if I feel like using it C) Another projectile weapon I can practice with And most importantly D) "Hey I found my ball..!"

[@samuelfreeman5483]

I love my ball!

[@galegopaulista4564]

In MvM, you can upgrade the sandman to also mark enemies to death, not only when hitting them with your melee, but also when hitting them with the ball. So if you have spare money, the Sandman becomes a direct upgrade to the fan of war MvM. So I guess that counts for something, too.

[@flicker6741]

@@samuelfreeman5483 uhh

[@zurielschubert9410]

@@galegopaulista4564 Yeah but like, FoW can do just that without any upgrade and at any given time.

[@yoshyfoods]

Same lmao, I do NOT use it for it’s gimmick, I only want to have a wooden bat and also say “I love my ball”

[@Caragoner]

By the way, fun fact, If you're in water the atomizer will always mini crit because swimming counts as being in the air :) Forget pyro shark Piranha scout

[@galegopaulista4564]

Now I want someone to Photoshop Scout's head into Piranha Plant.

[@butter5842]

Also useful to know if you are doing the soda popper contract and you realise you don’t have the skills to build up enough hype. So you can triple jump into water and still get kill progress.

[@jaredroshaven3380]

New troll playstyle: Use the FaN knockback or Shortstop shove to push enemies into bodies of water and then swap to the atomizer to annihilate them via piranha-Scout frenzy.

[@jmurray1110]

Though it’s only 5 higher damage than stock

[@bigbear1045]

Pyro shark, Piranha scout and the eal trolldier if it also works for the market gardener. Cool.

[@glad16252]

I personally believe the SOAS should get a ball like the Sandman and Wrap Assassin. Some kind of fire ball that hits someone and burns enemies. Would make more use of the other upside and you get the resistance with it out when you fire the ball.

[@MistakennJ]

that’s a good idea honestly

[@PineapplePineapplePineapplePin]

Give scout a flare gun

[@presseagainidareyou4704]

Yeah, and it is different enough from the Wrap Assassin because of fire’s healing decrease

[@daddysempaichan]

I think it'll be more funny if you gain crits while on fire. Maybe increased fire resistance while equipped so you're less likely to die while one fire as well.

[@MrNoahlindsay]

along with the crits that would make it one of the more fun scout weapons

[@ZaTrapu]

Fun fact: the sandman's slow down effect sets a class's speed to that of about the same walking speed of a heavy and it slows every class to that speed. It's most effective on scout and is 99% useless on heavy (given the heavy isn't being given a speed boost, have the GRU/EN out, or under the effect of the steak's extra speed)

[@ZestyJesus]

IT'S SO BAD MAN I HATE IT

[@pandapruitt2542]

Ohhhh thats a good thought, a demoknight that doesn't know how to spam a+d is pretty much screwed huh?

[@hmmmstvethebaffled7720]

If I could fix the sandman I would make it the same as it used to be accept the stun stops you from shooting for much MUCH less time. I would make it so that the slow down stays the same but the player is never taken into a third person stun animation. Basically you hit a heavy with it, he stops firing for one second, is slowed down, and is able to start shooting again without the need to rev up or anything. And of course I’ll bring back the cleaver combo

[@bruschetta7711]

So it's useful on demoknights and scouts, but it's still broken so it sucks anyway Afterall you are trading health against ALL classes, in hope to hit a fast as fuck enemy with a slow projectile

[@pandapruitt2542]

@@bruschetta7711 its true that it sucks but minus well try and find as many uses for it as possible.

[@halt1931]

Are you still going to spin the wheel even when there's only the Engie left?

[@galegopaulista4564]

I hope he does. It'd be funny.

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

He should add the Sandvich to the wheel

[@darthvaderbutwayshittier7054]

What about the Sniper?

[@istoleyunomilesbigmac]

would be fuckin funny

[@KnotNoxus]

he better does

[@stuff9680]

The Sandman had the biggest fall from grace, used to be great and justified the -15 health now the only people who use it are either veterans going on a nostalgia trip or new players who've seen old combo videos

[@Mantafirefly]

Yeah, if they took away the health penalty and just gave it something like -20% melee damage then it would be equippable, even if only as an unremarkable melee option.

[@ChronoSquare]

I miss playing with my balls :(

[@Kyle_Reese]

Theres a dumb roblox ripoff of tf2 that buffed the sandman, no more health penalty, just melee dmg penalty, and slowdown increases the closer you are to your target, its not OP i think, its just annoying to fight against

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

@@Kyle_Reese typical colors 2 unironically has some good balance choices

[@vivelespatat2670]

@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 i.e Sniper not 1 shotting Medic in 0.1 sec

[@tonyshum5569]

back scatter is still my guilty pleasure, it's just like the backburner, the less you actively try to get behind someone the more often it'll happen

[@dripapproved1582]

I swear people just turn tail and run when you have it equipped

[@THEFurfoot]

one shotting a light class is a strong dopamine

[@Froggediah]

It’s helped me get better accuracy when I stop using it because I need to try to shoot more accurate with it and with an even more accurate gun you hit loads of shots. It’s just helped me become a better scout overall

[@DannyCheezits]

It's a super underrated training wheels item. It trains ur positioning and secondary usage by making you reliant on them

[@waffles9733]

Can't believe Zesty didn't even talk about recoil jumping in the Force-a-Nature segment

[@lambsauce5312]

@Jack D Rippr least murderous white person in Western Africa

[@knines6279]

@Jack D Rippr factually incorrect. Has Scout ever said he was a soda popper? Didn’t think so.

[@-RandomStranger-]

​@@knines6279 you listening? Okay Grass grows Sun shines And brother... I hurt people! *_Im a force a nature!_*

[@CosmicAfro]

As a wielder of a Collector's Sun on a Stick, I can assure you that you're incredibly wrong on my dear sir. (Pushes up glasses, rubs hands together, and calls your mom on Facebook) On paper, the sun's stats do look odd, but the actual effectiveness in pubs is quite high. While yes, a Pyro or... Cowmangler, on occasion, is necessary for this weapon to be fully realized, the amount of times I have outlived a Pyro's flames from either his thrower OR his arsenal of flares thanks to the 3 tick to 4, is actually quite surprising. As a class where every HP point counts in whether you live or die, being able to travel further on fire is an immensely useful benefit. Additionally, pyros are in every casual game. There is almost never a time where a Pyro is not present somewhere on a map that is somewhat populated. But what REALLY makes this weapon stand out to me is that it's a crit-mechanic weapon WITH random crits enabled. And because the Scattergun is basically Scout's melee, the Sun takes up a very useful slot when you're not doing a gimmick- and frankly has more effectiveness than fish, wrap, cane (because you don't take more damage), FoW. Is it his best in slot? No, Meta dictates the Boston or Atom, but it's not an E tier weapon. Killing someone with this mechanic is rare, but it feels SO satisfying. I've beaten down Heavy's on fire because their health can't regen as fast with a medic, and see Medic's run in horror as their big friend is brutally beaten. At worst, it's an alternative stock bat, but at its best its easily busted with its output.

[@jpthepsycho1467]

Eyy cosmic

[@ZestyJesus]

this is a fair argument and I concede to the lashing

[@mauriceanderson5413]

@@ZestyJesus take it boy

[@tonyawwwno3364]

@Zesty Zucc counter-counter-point, the sun on a stick uses the same sound effect as the default bat

[@-RandomStranger-]

I agree with everything except the SOAS being better than *fish* . _Nothing beats _*_fish_*

[@OlaftheGreat]

I occassionally use the Sandman to annoy people on Degroot Keep (where I'm already going to die in one random crit swing anyway), this is basically the only use I've ever been able to come up for it.

[@roman108]

Gotta be fun to slow down those pesky charging demoknights huh

[@vivelespatat2670]

@@roman108 Till you realise charging as Demoknight remove all debuffs

[@-RandomStranger-]

​@@vivelespatat2670 muahahahah! 2 year later reply!1!1!1! Anyways demoknights cant remove slowdown effects. Infact they prevent demoknights from charging AT ALL and they cant do anything except wait for the debuff to end

[@Master_Brutus]

​@@-RandomStranger-the one thing the sandman is good at. Demoknight counter.

[@nicholasho1595]

Pocket Pistol should have been above stock. The health back on hit, like you said, is meh, but that faster firing rate is useful in any situation, and the lower clip size means nothing since the faster firing rate makes you hit more shots.

[@GogiRegion]

See, I think that it would be above stock without the healing, but the healing makes it just even better. Sure, it goes through the clip super fast, but the reload is fast enough as is, so you end up dealing more damage. If you can hit your shots, it does a ton super fast. And ideally, it’s a finishing tool anyways, so the downside only affects you if you get into a situation where Scout would probably lose anyways.

[@mesplin3]

@@GogiRegion Yeah, the only argument I could see for the pistol being better is for clip size. But as pistols are made to be a finishing tool, you'd rather kill the enemy quicker than later. The health upside is almost irrelevant.

[@chaoz7370]

But putting it above stock pistol implies its comparable to mad milk, which it isn't

[@sudoku5148]

babe wake up, new zesty tier list

[@henrybadger785]

Yes honey

[@the3plyspy]

@@henrybadger785 lmao

[@Whois2th]

Okay 🥺💙

[@_kokku_]

bet

[@tal5667]

@@henrybadger785 literally what I was thinking lo

[@smackeroon688]

SOAS but, passively, while you're on fire you move faster. Kinda like an Escape Plan for Scout but you just go like Baby Face speed while on fire. Every scout experiences the pain of burning to death in front of a health pack, and this could make for a funny gimmuck weapon.

[@krypto9071]

I like the idea but baby faces blaster speed is a bit ridiculous

[@ferdithetank7535]

@@krypto9071 Except that it doesn't work in that corner case, since afterburn completely wrecks your boost

[@smackeroon688]

@@krypto9071 it only works while you're receiving constant damage as the second frailest class in the game. And it only works when fighting the Pyro. I'm not gonna say it works for heavy too cuz of the bio long because if you get that close to a revved heavy I'd be shocked if you didn't die even with that movement speed

[@homicidalrhino7266]

@@smackeroon688 anything that makes the scout faster is op and a passive buff like that would have scouts using nothing but the soan and just be Pyro counters

[@susko5673]

That's a great idea

[@Shaymaru]

I wish Zesty didn’t feel the need to instinctively assume people freak out when he places an item in a tier and felt the need to do that voice thing to acknowledge counter arguments. It happens a lot and it’s just very exhausting. I enjoy when Zest is just enjoying whatever he’s talking about instead, or is a little more restrained in his scripted videos.

[@TheGlenn8]

Yeah, seeing someone talk to their strawman is pretty lame.

[@maikidot]

Yeah it's really obnoxious honestly, like it's fine if it's like rare but it happens literally every 5 minutes and it got old very fast.

[@purplehaze2358]

The stun glitch shouldn’t be an instant “Terrible weapon” label for weapons that slow opponents because, at least in my experience, the vast majority of players don’t think to channel the soul of a scout main and spam A and D really fast when they get stunned. Even people who know about the glitch rarely think to do so in the heat of the moment. I can assure you, the sandman is a terrible weapon for reasons other than that.

[@scouttf2143]

It’s bad because the upside is practically useless, why slow down a demoman when you can just use your primary to kill them? It’s basically the stock bat with a really big downside

[@Spanishdog17]

Whenever I use the Sandman it feels like the slowdown affect doesn’t change anything (except for my health).

[@didsomeoneaskforanegg2168]

It's not even mashing ad, all you need to do is walk diagonally. I main bonk scout and it's stupidly easy to mitigate it

[@homesinc]

its still awful because lowering speed is a weak mechanic whilst the lowered max hp is an awful penalty

[@sevendeadlysquids404]

Well, my understanding is it's in the "broken/needs reworked" category because the bug exists, even if the bug is not abused in most circumstances, it shouldn't be present. The weapon is undeniably broken in its current state. Even without the issue, it's still so awful I wouldn't be surprised if he argued it belongs in the category anyways.

[@PFSnypr]

Ive literally just been waiting Engi lmfao, the odds are not in my favor

[@ZestyJesus]

we're doing the engineer tomorrow on stream, so you don't have to wait much longer

[@aperson4287]

@@ZestyJesus My Engie main senses are tingling.

[@stuffstuff6932]

My idea for the sandman is to give it its mvm upgrade of mark for death. Having the duration based on the distance it was thrown and adding back the sandman cleaver combo but without any help from slowing effects.

[@concorde837]

Oi, that could be good

[@nathan_thorn6906]

Hmm… might be good but maybe balance the old cleaver/sandman thing to simply use the minicrit boosted damage so the target still takes a solid chunk of damage, 70~ damage + bleed is plenty to wound someone into finishing range for a scattergun shot.

[@superequinox4185]

I think this series is actually important in the TF2 sphere. A lot of your views on balance and design runs contrary to the wider discussion. I don't personally agree with a lot of what you say, but your dissenting voice is refreshing

[@grum9536]

I wish the sandman wasn’t nerfed so hard, I love the voicelines for it but I just can’t use it

[@z1u512]

I could probably buy tf2 from valve if I have a dollar for everytime zesty says the word "hideously" or "competitive" in his videos.

[@MsGhoulz]

Backscatter is pointless. The number of times I die instantly from a random crit from a scout's scattergun....

[@CoffeeIssues]

i remember once having 20-30 hp and getting SNIPED (yes,sniped) by a scout's scattergun crit. needless to say we both were confused lmfao

[@Metro_Stalin_Mayer]

If there's something I will always be proud is to be the one caused Zesty the breakdown about the milky jokes

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

what

[@illegallyblind6916]

Sandman is good, because you can crouch or be really close to a wall, then hold down m2. You can hear rapid crack sounds all across the map, and its funny annoying the enemy team.

[@galegopaulista4564]

"I love my ball!"

[@ashtongiertz8728]

4:08 should still stun after a certain distance, say 60% of moonshot distance causes shoot stun, and moonshots completely stun. Then it would have a use as an anti-sniper tool, which this game desperately needs more of.

[@mariustan9275]

I think people would still complain about that, no matter how skilled it is. People don't like to suddenly have their movement taken away. Maybe instead make it so it marks people for death or maybe an alternate version, highlight peopel through walls to mark a sniper.

[@_telia]

You can actually get an exact spread value from the CTX files. You need a decompiler, but the shortstop has a spread value of 0.04, and the scattergun has a spread value of 0.0675 (~1.7x tighter spread.) The shortstop has the exact same spread value as the pistol.

[@llmkursk8254]

This… Makes a lot of sense.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

its literally just the pistol you have got to be kidding me

[@vivelespatat2670]

When a pistol try to become a primary weapon :

[@adrianbyrdziak5130]

Idea for a sandman; what if the stun duration was reversed - the closer you are, the longer the stun will lust. In that situation it would be more like "I have half health, and need to reload. I can't win this battle, have a ball in the face, and don't chase me while I run". So, more like a panic attack in the functionality

[@minimum850]

Yeah, and then a scout can run up to somebody and stun them, then pull out his scattergun at his effective rwnge

[@adrianbyrdziak5130]

@@minimum850 I don't think that's a big deal because people can shoot (it's a slow down, not a stun). The great strength of the scout is that he sticks his shotgun up your ass, firing the first bullet and before you manage to react the shoots again. Informing enemy of your existence as a scout, with an attack that deals very little damage is generally ... not recommended. The only situation where you are right is where the scout slows down a medic who is unable to defend himself too much. Any other class can shoot back. And when the scout is so close to you ... running away won't work anyway. With or without a slowdown. You have to kill him or you die. Slow down really doesn't effect this that much

[@-RandomStranger-]

​@@adrianbyrdziak5130 this is a late reply, but didn't you say "stun" in your original comment?

[@TheJosiahTurner]

i think that the sandman should be given some form of interruption mechanic, for the duration of the slow, it could disable/postpone your ability to: use banners/keep banner effects, use uber/stay ubered (if you arent using stock uber), cloak, charge/keep charging (if you hit a charging demo it will stop them), keep a minigun revved (it would forcefully unrev the heavy and force him to rev again), unscope a sniper, etc you could hit a buff banner soldier during a push and cut like 3 seconds off of his ability to mini crit, you could make a vacc medic uninstall the game, you could hit a building to disable it for a few seconds, cowmangler style, catch a spy lackin and take his ability to cloak away, screw up a heavy's push by unrevving him, put an end to the 50 head demoknight's killstreak by cucking his charge, make a sniper unable to quickscope you when you approach, screw up a kritz uber etc also uber building aside, the BB is literally a direct upgrade if you can land your hits

[@fakename5881]

thats honestly one of the neatest balance ideas for the sandman ive ever seen

[@vivelespatat2670]

"Unrrev a heavy" that's just old sandman

[@casualsoapmuncher561]

I never use the backscatter because I think it’s superior, but I do use it to sharpen up my aim, the -20% accuracy helps you adapt and hit your shots more, especially after switching back to stock. I used it starting out and I definitely recommend to anyone trying to get good as scout

[@WooHooLadttv]

Commenting because I'm a simp for your channel Also, c\/m.

[@ratcrusher3251]

I think I remember you saying something about being a geologist or something, so i have a question: Does soapstone taste like Dawn or Ivory?

[@ZestyJesus]

palmolive

[@TheGlenn8]

Tastes like soap, duh.

[@narcant]

i have about 120 hours on scout and i never even considered using the Soda-Popper. thanks for educating us scout mains Zesty

[@Thefrostedslime]

"Boston basher helps medic build uber" Fist of Steel heavies: Obesrve

[@FlipZFox]

Personal idea, I believe that the *Sandman* should have some kind of partially blinding "trauma" effect, where your screen is blurry considering that your head definitely isn't going to take well to a baseball that has landed right onto your skull. Maybe add a bit of slight drunk-like aim effect or even just an inaccuracy debuff as well to fit well with the theme that you're dizzy as all hell but you're still able to fight back. I also personally think these ideas of mine should be put into test to be sure they are at least fun to fight against or isn't going to cause some kind of nauseous effect in real life just to be safe.

[@Walker443]

Can’t wait to see you review on the new tf2 Halloween skins

[@mythos951]

Simple change for the sandman: instead of making the ball give a slow effect, have it give marked for death. Essentially, make this weapon a ranged fan of war. You don’t even need to change the downside.

[@TheSpoonman00]

Pairing the Cleaver and Wrap Assassin with the BFB is legitimately fun. Even if you're moderately good at landing shots with either weapon, it's enough to get your BFB boost back up even if you get shot

[@thatkoboldgaming7114]

35:42 You’re half right, comp players cried about it because if a scout overextended, he could duck around a corner, drink, and run away back to his team.

[@bigfootfighter4132]

Pro strat my friend and I do on ctf maps: Both scouts, both running atomizer and bonk. One scout drinks bonk and gets as close to the sentry as possible while the other grabs the intel and runs the fuck outa there. This one game, first cap was like stealing candy from a baby. Second cap the engie was ready for us with a wrangler, but we still managed to dance around and get away with the intel. Third cap he was so pissed he just came at us with his shotgun, once again we danced around him and the gun and stole the intel. Bonk is so much fun with friends!

[@remuvs]

The thing with the Boston Basher, it's so redundant for the casual audience because in casual it's almost a given that the team is never on full health so you're basically always on the max build rate anyway.

[@TheMasterd333]

True but you can also boston basher jump so it still has a niche

[@yobber2991]

I really like how your opinions are different than the hundreds of pyro joe clones that make tf2 content

[@thewitchishammered]

No one ever expects you to actually hit them with the basher when you whip it out. Makes the salt in deadchat so much more delicious.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

I've said it before and will say it again: please keep being a scholar geophysicist, Z. Changing your life to revolve around a fickle social media heat algorithm that panders to the lowest common denominator of watchers, as you said, is a _shitty_ idea.

[@OhCrapI_He]

I’m making notes for how I’d re-balance many unlocks in TF2 (maybe for a mod or something) Perhaps the Sandman could have a Mark for Death effect with the same cooldown as the Wrap Assassin's Bauble, instead of the buggy, hard-to-balance stun. The Backscatter would have Full crits from behind instead on mini-crits, so it does 180 damage on a meatshot from behind Additionally, the accuracy penalty may be replaced with a damage ramp-up penalty (150% instead of 175%, therefore 90 damage on a head-on meatshot, as opposed to 105) Baby Face's Blaster might have a more forgiving boost (Perhaps taking 75 damage would be enough to empty it, and dealing 150 damage would be enough to fill it, and perhaps double-jumping would only take away 25-50% of your boost) Sun on a Stick would provide afterburn immunity instead of fire damage resistance, and more importantly, it would light all nearby players on fire so the crits on burning players would actually matter (It may even ignite teammates, so you could use this to help your pyro heal with Airblast or gain crits with the Manmelter) Force-a-Nature would only deal its boosted knockback on the second shot (So the first shot doesn't push the enemy outside your effective range), but if that ends up being overpowered, I might also lower its rate of fire. Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol might have more healing (5 per shot, instead of 3), at the cost of damage (10 instead of 15) and ammo capacity (you can only carry ~20 shots with it) Bonk! Atomic Punch would boost your speed like as if you had a fully boosted Baby Face's Blaster while it's active and it would have a shorter cooldown (16 seconds instead of 22) Mad Milk might apply its effects to all players in the area (you could accidentally Mad Milk your teammates or extinguish your enemies). Additionally, if Pyros couldn't reflect Mad Milk in vanilla TF2, they would be able to with this balance mod. The Winger might have greater damage to get more people using it. Crit-a-cola might have the Mark for Death moved to after the duration of the mini-crits, but it's now paired with a 25% speed penalty. Wrap Assassin might be buffed so it's equivalent to the Flying Guillotine Shortstop would have greater fire rate, (Equivalent to Soda Popper/Force-a-Nature), fire 5 shots at once instead of 4, and it would have a stronger shove (equivalent to Force-a-Nature's blast), at the cost of damage ramp-up (No longer has and damage ramp up or fall off)

[@Scyzzles]

I think the pistols are really valuable on Scout. His whole thing is using his mobility to control fights, which is what makes him so dangerous and able to come out on top against any class in the game. The pistol gives him a very good mid-range damage option. A good Scout swaps between his primary and secondary (and sometimes bat) depending on the range he's at. Taking away the pistol lowers his mid-range damage effectiveness and takes away from his strength of being so flexible.

[@transientlattice]

The bonk can actually be really fun to use for creating some funny scenarios. Like blocking one of the enemy spawn doors on harvest, then watching as 3 or more people flood out the gates and blow you to pieces, or bullying a heavy by body blocking him and using any taunt of choice for added memery, (I have a clip where I used the schadenfreude to body a block a heavy while invulerable right before a soldier blew him up, perfectly re creating the “THINK FAST CHUCKLE NUTS! *FLASHBANG*” meme. You can even body block Ubers at the start of a round on defense, preventing them from pushing up and because it’s so unexpected and they’ve just been ubered, they’ll just stay body blocked for a few seconds before they know what’s going on, and even then you can still keep blocking them with your superior movement speed. Scout has way better alternatives for secondaries, but if you’re playing for fun the bonk has a lot to offer if you think outside the box.

[@Nicky2414]

*When Zesty Jesus posts a video:* "Say goodbye to your brain cells, chucklhead!"

[@josephg1125]

Exactly lol. Stock bat and basher on the same tier? Fan of war above basher, stock above pbpp LOL is the funniest one. And MM not in broken

[@shybandit521]

I'd say Boston Basher is tied with Atomizer and Wrap Assassin in viability. Boston Basher farms Uber, is the best combat melee, and despite what you say the Boston Basher jump is actually bonkers sometimes if you have a medpack nearby or a medic juicing you up pre-jump. Easily the highest jump a scout could possibly get without Soda Popper. However, the damage of the Wrap Assassin is far more consistent and risk free, and the movement of the Atomizer is far more consistent and risk free. In the hands of a God gamer, Boston Basher is the best. In the hands of the average scout, it's a risky weapon that gives you a lot of options, compared to a risk free weapon that gives you one option. Risky is fun, and options are good.

[@josephg1125]

Still no reason to use melee for combat since stock sc does 102 dmg point blank. The main selling point of melees is their utility

[@shybandit521]

@@josephg1125 eh true but its funny sometimes

[@NoahtheGameplayer]

36:30 so you rather die and wait for 20 seconds respawn, okay man sure, I mean it's all about survivability just to not die and having to wait 20 seconds again, that's why bonk is A Tier

[@delfinodolphinsquad910]

I feel like a measly 20 damage shouldn't be the amount to lose all your boost with the Baby's Face, it definitely needs the "lose boost on hit thing" but 20 damage is very low, especially with how hard it can fuck you over, I say anywhere between 50-100 damage to lose all boost should be it, that way you're not royally screwed from chip damage and stray shots. I don't think it would make it broken, but it'd make it less punishing for newer players too

[@Eclipse-bj9no]

Heres my idea for how to re-add a more balanced version of the old Sandman: The ball would put enemies in the humiliation state upon impact with no movement speed penalty. Enemies who are partially stunned would be immune to crits and would have a passive 35% non-melee damage resistance, while also leaving the humilation state upon taking any source of damage. Enemies under the effects of any Uber would be slowed by 35% instead of being partially stunned. Moonshots would now deal guaranteed crits, but would no longer have the 1.5x damage modifier in order to match The Wrap Assassin's hidden stat. Just like the normal Sandman, the partial stun/humiliation state duration would be dependent on the balls travel distance, with a maximum duration of 7 seconds. The drawbacks would be that the ball couldn't random crit since it now does a guaranteed crit on moonshots, and you would still have the -15 max health penalty. (Optional Part Cleaver Combo Part) Then if we want to bring back the Sandman - Cleaver combo, we can just make the cleaver deal mini-crits against partially stunned players. This hopefully would be balanced since the Sandman's partial stun would cancel upon taking the impact damage from the cleaver, and since mini-crits is a 35% damage buff, the impact damage for the cleaver would go from 50 damage to 68, with the bleed going from 40 - 54 over 5 seconds.

[@IzzytheMelody]

I think we've been a bit unfair to the Bonk!, and thinking about it wrong. Everyone's like "Ho ho ho, lemme just slip past this sentry and get stunlocked in a corner until I fuckin' die", but how about the Bonk as an escape tool? You slip behind them, you blow up teles, and now everyone who just respawned knows you're there and they're kind pissed. You're not getting out of that. Without the Bonk!. Because it's 8 seconds of "I can't die", and then you get slowed. The slow effect usually comes up when you're deep in enemy lines and been chased down, but if it procs when you're behind your own team, then it's kinda irrelevant. Just something I thought of

[@drdipshit2022]

Having used the pretty boys for almost all my hours on scout you’re completely correct, the health back is sub par but its nice to have a easy way to top your health back off after being chipped

[@aruan7sp]

I mostly play Scout and I'd say this is the best tier list I've seen. I'd just put the PBPP on A-tier; its fast fire rate makes it a great finisher, it feels like a pocket SMG. I'd rather fire quicker than having extra 3 shots from stock pistol. The HP recovery is just a good bonus on top of that. The Force-A-Nature? I'd put it just below Stock, it is THAT good. Its knockback effect is great against blastjumping Soldiers & Demos, a free "airblast" when going against Pyro and able to stop a Demoknight charge. Also great for medic picks since you can push him away from his team. It only has 2 shots so you have no room for error, but necessary to balance its many upsides. I'd give bonus points to the Baby Face mostly due to its look and feel, the lever action animation is gorgeous and the firing sound is so satisfying. But yeah, its among the weakest primaries. It feels like everyone shooting at you is using the Natascha.

[@abicto]

dying to the shortstop is the most weirdest feel in this game like its so fucking fast and you probably didnt even see the scout its weird and funny at the same time

[@schweppley1614]

Even though the sandman sucks balls, I still use it because the noise it makes when you stun someone is nostalgic to me, when valve nerfed this weapon into the ground, a part of me died, for all the weapons they nerfed into the ground, I’ll never forgive them for this one, there is no excuse for a weapon this horrible

[@jacobdavidson9833]

Those Bionicles are quite possibly the coolest backdrop I've seen from any youtuber.

[@frontierdustice]

As a fellow FaN enjoyer, I resonate with Zesty. That knockback you take from firing the FaN in the air is just extra mobility if you know how to use it properly. Forget the Winger or the Atomizer, this thing can launch you further than the two of them combined.

[@blacklight683]

Why is the first comment just Boston?did I miss something?

[@sheacorduroy5565]

Three Rune Blade is better than the Boston Basher because I can make Sonic and the Black Knight jokes when I run it with the baby face.

[@jamescook3933]

I want the mad milk to be like a sanvich for scout so we can get a reskin thats just elmers glue. The scout would just take a swig and say "Oh boy, I sure do love drinking glue!"

[@grimreaper1542]

Sandman went from S+ Broken, down to E- Broken in a single change.

[@kailaine3974]

Whoever it was in chat who compared the Baby Face's Blaster to heroin is spot fuckin on XD

[@a_dead786]

FINALLY!! someone else who loves the shortstop. I didn't like it when I first tried but eventually it just clicked and i started doing REALLY GOOD with it.

[@TheAaaaaaaaaad12]

I understand why they had to nerf the sandman, cause getting hit by a try hard lime-scout and being unable to move for seconds is honestly not a very fun play to go against at. If i have to bring a balance patch for the " current " sandman, is like 2 options. 1st option: + Hitting an enemy with a ball gives scouts a boost speed " speed and duration is base by the travel of the ball " this gives the players the ability to catch up it's target and easily pick them off while also not rendering the opponent to fight completely 2nd option: + Hitting an enemy with a ball tilt's their facing by a random angle " the further the ball travels the harder the tilt goes " This one gives the enemies at a disadvantage from the beginning, by messing up their view so they can't tell where the scout is gonna come , but at the same time can be easily recovered by simply moving their mouse. It also punishes hard-scoping snipers and forces them out from scoping.

[@requiemuk2351]

I would honestly love to see u do some live gameplay on KZbin. Like going for killstreaks with an abstract weapon. Off meta shit. I enjoy ur personality and dont have time to tune into livestreams.

[@notoriousectotherm]

BFB pairs pretty well with the winger, because compensating for no double jump with a higher jump is really fun.

[@zacharydezeeuw7779]

I like how at the end he turns the video into a Mythbusters episode

[@tsuaririndoku]

Soda Poper + Cleaver + Wrap Assassin is just basically makes scout being almost unstoppable like 70% of the time. Hence Hit and Bleed does fills the meter really quickly. BFB with Cleaver + Wrap Assassins also decent with each other, hence it makes BFB somewhat practical. Now I agree with him that playing Stock loadout on scour really getting boring to me too.

[@concorde837]

Now thinking about it, BFB with the cleaver and bauble is for horizontal movement boost, while using the Soda Popper is for vertical movement boost.

[@tsuaririndoku]

@@concorde837 Yeah, they basically makes scout go extreme on one mobility and debuff on the other

[@trevbev45]

The Sandman used to be a fucking beast with The Flying Guillotine combo by stunning opponents and hitting them with the guillotine. Now they nerfed that shit to the ground.

[@lunaryanrvpist]

I really love the playstyle that Spoopybler have with his Force-A-Nature, using it also like added mobility tool with the first shot.

[@Slogstin]

I've been looking into the Shortstop's Stats before, because i wanted to know exactly what stats are different from Stock. The Wiki has a stat called "Pellet Spread" where all the damage values are listed and based on that you can make out how much the accuracy increased. The wiki shows the spread value as this ratio thing and they are the following. Scatter Gun: 30:1 Back Scatter: 24:1 (20% decrease) Shortstop: 50:1 (66-67% increase) Based on that i think the Shorty has a 66% increase in accuracy.

[@CoffeeIssues]

shorty sniper B)

[@percher4824]

if you ask me, removing random bullet spread for shotguns is good. the pellets don't end up doing a lot at greater distances anyway and the pellets spread too far to be able to hit more than one. at medium range it's not that much of a buff- it's much more consistent and makes it so that you can't randomly hit all your pellets or none of them, leading to varied damage for no reason other than "muh damage variance"

[@ArtistiqueMusic]

I really liked the idea of the Sandman + Guillotin3 combo being the most effective way for a scout to take down a heavy quickly, because heavy often counters scout as they are both close range classes. I'm not sure how to rework it, but I do think that having the sandman + guillotine being a high single-target damage weapon combo is a very appealing idea, but pulling something like that off would have to require a high skill ceiling.

[@chocox6491]

The sandman was killed because of that combo, all valve had to do is remove the crit on stunt players but in good old fashioned way valve killed the weapon

[@fangrowls6336]

@@chocox6491 no its the opposite, people despised it because of the stun. Not the crit. Or at least a combination of the 2

[@thatkoboldgaming7114]

Hey @Zesty Jesus, I had an idea of how to bring back the old sandman cleaver combo and not make it hideously unfair so I’d like your opinion. To bring back the one two punch I’d say make the ball Mark someone for Death with the duration scaling with distance, and then give the cleaver a Crits whenever it would Minicrit stat. That way scouts get to have a skillful combo and the opponent is still able to fight back and retaliate.

[@icewhallowcome6689]

thing about rbs is that it is not like random crits, where it at least can be satisfying when you get one, rbs is just a minor inconvenience, not enough to balance but enough to lose one or two kills in a game

[@PrismaticAngel]

Perhaps the Sandman ball can mark people for death? Bit like a Fan-o-War but from a distance

[@jaywerner8415]

I forget who did the video on it but, Apparently the Baby Faces Blaster pairs well with the Clever and the Wrap Assassin. THE METER TRINITY!

[@someepicnerd7821]

People don’t care about the fact that the winger dies less damage when they equip it. People only use it with the soda popper so the can fill the charge, run up and kill someone, kelvin’s saying “I have to go. My people need me” in the chat, and then just fly away. You can also jump scare people by using the charge to fly over someone and fall to your death right in front of them which is also pretty funny

[@gordonhuang1366]

FaN jumping is what makes the gun the most fun for me. The movement his gun provides is insane and is on-demand unlike the Soda Popper; It can be used to close the gap, escape, position, etc. and not enough FaN scouts are abusing it

[@jadynandchara640]

I like the difference between the soda popper and the stock. The soda popper always felt like a more versatile version of the backscatter, with it killing most enemies in two meatshots which come out nearly as fast as a heavy fires. It's got a faster reload speed so it's less punishing and instead more fun, and it's 'niche' of letting you jump a whole ton is just incredibly fun to use especially in battle. The only reason I ever want stock over soda popper is in 1v1 scenarios where the second soda popper shot is harder to hit making the extra availible shot from stock much more valuable. It's especially good of a weapon when paired with the sustain of the stock pistol or even just stock melee since usually scouts can't be so bad they miss their primary and secondary.

[@PHoMi126]

Situational fact: Wrap's Assassin can also pick up Sandman's ball and it magically turn to ornament

[@whydoitrystuff]

I adore the backscatter. The less accurate shots are barely noticeable in practice and generally just ends up helping do some damage to people next to the guy you are trying to shoot, which barely helps but I mean it exists. The way you obtain mini crits is fair (though I’m not denying that the hit box is jank as all hell), and is extremely satisfying. There is so much random garbage you can pull off with the backscatter with good aim it’s ridiculous. Literally my proudest moment in the entire game was hiding next to spawn doors on payload and killing 4 people in a row in a matter of 8 seconds with backscatter mini crits and making it out alive to boot. Idiotic plays like that make me feel alive and it’s why it’s my favorite scatter gun (or scout weapon to an extent) to this day.

[@soupieboy2146]

When I first started playing, my favorite scout class was Back Scatter, Winger, and Atomizer (before the Atomizer was changed).

[@yaboichangkaishek3460]

Yes lord zesty blessing us with god like content

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

EZPZ fix to the sandman: Keep the slowstun as it is currently. Maybe buff duration slightly. add: For the duration of their slowdown, targets hit by the baseball will receive 50% less healing from all sources. For fun, make it do +25% damage at the cost of -25 health instead of -15. This is just a teehee funstat idea tho, the actual idea is the healing received debuff on target.

[@aetu35]

that'd make it worse. you die from one pipe. that is not a fair tradeoff.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

@@aetu35 the sandman is already themed around a sort of support scout anyways, so maybe you wouldn't want to be close enough to take a pipe

[@blacklight683]

7:50well that's sniper rifle

[@thatguybrody4819]

my argument for random bullet spread on shotguns: shotguns are by definition random bullet spread. it's a gun that spews buckshot from a large tube that go in a random pattern in that cone. if you want fixed pattern you have the panic attack. the backscatter sounds good on paper but suffers the hitbox spaghetti curse. just make the spread regular or hell maybe tighter and boom problem fixed. sun on a stick is good for the scorch spammer. melee scout, i want scoutknight. get a set that replaces the primary that gives better melee stats. no shotgun primary would definitely balance that out. candy cane is fun to scout knight with as you just sponge damage with the milk but if there's more than one explosive class you're screwed. FaN jumping is fun too.

[@MrNe0_]

dude thank fuck someone sees the potential in the shortstop i've been loving the hell out of this gone for a while now and i can't possibly tell you how much fun i've had with it reload animation still feels weird af tho, i feel like i'm reloaded but nope, animation's actually not done yet

[@Jessie_Helms]

Automatic or semi-automatic guns like the SMG or pistol should be like in CSGO with a fixed recoil pattern. You don’t have perfect Crosshair accuracy but you can compensate with enough skill

[@amplecrayon9724]

I've devised something weird and evil for my Scout - Shortstop - Crit-a-cola - Wrap assassin When you use the Shortstop for its 40% tighter spread you will suffer the consequences of damage falloff from being too far away from your target ontop of the already decreased base damage Shortstop has to other shotguns, making the weapon hit like a wet fart at long range. But when you pair it with the Crit-a-cola, you are allowed to be as far away as you want from your enemy and avoid any damage falloff allowing you to do more damage than any other scatter gun at any range with an increased fire rate to improve your chances of hitting your target. ( alt is still a joke ) And when your Crit-a-cola is not available, you can utilize the wrap assassins alt fire to try and help make up for any lost damage through bleed. You can get at least two alt fires in between every Crit-a-cola and it tends to come in useful. It only gets better when you use the alt fire with the Crit-a-cola to inflict a leathal DOT that will do 75 damage alongside what your shortstop can do. Its so...... EVIL! It gives Scout an M1 Garand for 8 seconds where you can get at least 12 shots out before you need to lay low for a second for marked for death to go away. And if anything gets anywhere close to medium range while you are shooting at them, they are dead

[@aimer9181]

"no random spread op" he's at it again

[@black_ghost1215]

maybe for the sandman it could do a knockback based on farther from the scout the stronger it is the closer to the scout the weaker it is, remove the -15 health and give it a damage penalty of like 20%-25%. For the candy cane a idea would be give it the back scratcher build but lower the heal form health packs to like 30%-40% good for flankscouts or loners.

[@WhiteWeaseI]

I like the color progression you are going with in the tier list backgrounds. I bet sniper is going to be red!

[@BamBoozlerC0L3]

iirc the slowdown effect on Bonk can also be completely countered by strafing, just like the Natasha and the Sandman

[@yaneproduction]

I think that they made shove on shortstop deal 1 damage to count the shove in environmental hazards as "finish off". Maybe they couldn't make work as Pyro's airblast does

[@TheMadRatKing]

For the sandman, what if the impact makes the victim hit suddenly turn away from the direction of the impact slightly, like the ball impact confuses the target without removing their ability to fight or move. Just completely screws over their crosshair by whipping them around in another direction, giving an incoming scout a very brief chance to run up and meatshot them. If the target reacts quickly, they can easily turn back around and hit the scout coming at them- or use the sudden turn around to their advantage to get the hell out of the fight. Might also inadvertently fuck over friendly spies though.

[@murasakidevil]

Playing perfectly with the soda popper is a huge dopamine rush. Activating hype mode and dodging all the spam for 15 or so seconds before dying horriblu to a natasha heavy is my favorite moment as a scout main

[@just-mees]

The soda popper is like an axe in old fire emblem; most people just straight up miss with it and die (during reload) but the rare few who can hit both shots are fucking unbeatable

[@OliODDLY]

Goddamn did nobody catch his massive diss on spikeymikey, with the whole “6 minute video on community sparkle eraser” gag, because spikey recently did a video just talking about a community sparkle golden pan for 6 minutes lol