TF2: The Official Demoman Weapons Tier List

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Pyro Tier List: • TF2: The Official Pyro...
Thumbnail by JauntyWeb:
/ jauntyweb_ssb (SFM render)
Intro Music
Driver-Pendulum (Just Greg Remix)
Outro Music
Ball Point- Adhesive Wombat
0:00 Intro
0:32 Case Opening
0:48 Spinner Wheel
1:45 Caber
6:35 Loch n Load
9:38 Sticky Jumper
11:29 Pain Train
13:53 Booties
15:05 Base Jumper
20:04 Stock Bottle
20:47 Scotsman's Skullcutter
21:43 Random Crit Discussion
23:20 Half Zatoichi
25:25 Stock Grenade Launcher
26:08 Iron Bomber
28:12 Loose Cannon
29:29 Quickiebomb Launcher
30:59 Stickybomb Launcher
32:07 Scottish Resistance
34:24 Tide Turner
35:58 Chargin' Targe
36:56 Splendid Screen/Eyelander/Persian Persuader
41:53 Claidheamh Mohr

[@Moss_Dude]

I think you might've accidentally successfully advertised Idle Angels

[@ZestyJesus]

hindsight is 2020

[@JAIBADRIVISHAAL]

@@ZestyJesus THANK YOU for making good content

[@DoucheBagDave.]

It’s also godlike for spawn camping

[@Moss_Dude]

@@DoucheBagDave. I think you meant to reply to the comment below me

[@JAIBADRIVISHAAL]

@@ZestyJesus ZESTY JESUS LIKED MY COMMENT, MY LIFE IS BLESSED

[@ludwigiapilosa508]

Fun fact: if you use the Bootlegger while wearing the Shin Shredders, the Bootlegger is hidden, so they can't tell you have no primary.

[@thanhhaitran9422]

Tf2 pay-to-win confirmed.

[@nannerman160]

That's exactly what I used to do, (not because it's a secret but because I didn't want it to be ugly)

[@jackmack4181]

@@nannerman160 if you do it with the zombie skin, it also hides it but you were two different shoes.

[@kinefish1674]

I think it does this with the cool breeze too but it doesn’t hide it

[@maestrofeli4259]

nobody cares

[@abdallatifalafandi2522]

The most needed BASE jumper change is your ragdoll slowly going down if you have it deployed

[@sev1120]

Here's my idea for a BASE jumper rework: You can redeploy multiple times, but it's got a cap (say 3 redeploys before you have to reach the ground)

[@DannyCheezits]

@@sev1120 what if instead you could shoot the parachute itself and the more damage it takes the faster the soldier/demo falls, and after enough damage (say 200) the parachute gets completely torn and it stops protecting from fall damage

[@dimsthedimwit600]

Honestly would be fucking hilarious

[@ZestyJesus]

How are people able to see this despite it being unlisted

[@Sharafciger]

Allah's blessing has granted me sight of this.

[@wealthybone2990]

Magic my friend.

[@Mikeeeeeeeeeeeeeee3]

Recommendation

[@FlareSFM]

If you posted it and THEN made it unlisted, the post would have appeared in peoples feed, and if they didn't refresh it after you unlisted it, the 'link' to the video would still be there. So youtube would have not refreshed for some people, and the public link would still be chilling there.

[@duck-1109]

they guess the link

[@Spiffyo]

Zesty, do not forget that the Eyelander can still be equipped for Demoknight, and then equip a Grenade Launcher and Stickybomb Launcher at a resupply cabinet, and now you have 210 Health and Movement Speed that makes you faster then a Medic.

[@OMalleyTheMaggot]

This is straight up broken in pubs. It's super frustrating to constantly be punished for having bad teammates because a demo keeps farming them for easy heads and then you have to deal with the sonic speed tank demo.

[@Zer0Delayy]

It resets your heads whenever you change the loadout

[@OMalleyTheMaggot]

@@Zer0Delayy ...no? Change Loudout from outside of spawn then walk in and touch the cabinet.

[@Spiffyo]

@@Zer0Delayy Yeah I should resay that, equip the launchers before entering spawn so you wont reset the head count.

[@222MovieMan]

@@Spiffyo does that work? Get maximum amount og heads for the speed and health, and then resupoly to stock demo via cabinet and you still have the hp and speed boost?

[@Ravs1]

huge respect for not click-baiting and over glorifying the shit out of the unusual unbox. I've unboxed 2 unusuals and people get super jealous when they figure that out, but i spent significantly more money on the unboxing than if i just bought the unusuals themselves. don't do crates kids.

[@TriggerzConnors]

i already sold useless skins into refs and keys.

[@sud1881]

My first unboxing was a strange dalokas bar. On camera.

[@mr.tatortot6469]

Even though the scottish resistance isn't as good on offense it still has its uses as it can control the front line and prevent the defenders from pushing the attackers back.

[@ThLorax]

Sco Res needs a reload speed buff. Makes demo's reloading problems even worse

[@shoeofobama6091]

eh, its only good against doorways, and since not having your main source of damage neuters your ability to fight, it even reduces your defensive abilities in environments where enemies are skilled enough where pipes become unreliable, and where you need to be able to defend yourself and others, as well as providing damage for your team against anyone who breaks past the front line. the reason the scottish resistance is so bad is because it buffs your traps, which, while are a big part of demo, arent the best compared to in combat use of stickies, while removing demos ability to do everything else. its a small upside for a massive massive downside

[@shoeofobama6091]

@@largin386 direct combat stickies are one of the strongest aspects of demoman in general. and are responsible for the majority of a good demo's damage source. stock can do traps too, but it can also do everything else. scotres can cover multiple doorways a bit better, but stock can actually do damage outside of doorways. theres a reason scotres is never used in the high levels. it just doesnt work against good players

[@SoldierMan755]

Scorch shot and Short Circuit

[@RiffSilverthe1andonly]

Not to mention all the crowd control and even when you detonate you still have 10 more stickies ready to blow them to pieces.

[@StickMaster500]

I always thought that the Loch-n-Load was still a good weapon even after the nerfs, especially with them somewhat keeping the damage bonus by doing it deal more damage to buildings. Should really need to use it more.

[@MartinPurathur]

Atleast on casual, it's my go-to sentry-killer

[@glad16252]

Honestly I feel like people started calling it a crutch a lot more only after SoundSmith. The SoundSmith stans didn’t listen to the disclaimer in the beginning and took his word as gospel

[@MartinPurathur]

@@glad16252 nah, I called it a crutch since I've played for years, back when it was a crutch

[@glad16252]

@@MartinPurathur right, but after the nerf people stopped saying it was a crutch, at least in my experience. Then weapon stereotypes comes out and suddenly the community consensus was it was a crutch still since it helped you hit your shots a lot easier

[@MartinPurathur]

@@glad16252 well, in 1v1s with a demo. It's debatable. A good, really good demoman is only held back by the loch and load's clip

[@underscorePika]

That’s like the third time on videos that you’ve gotten an unusual. “Anomaly” :thonk:

[@Everik-ct6pg]

You know, i never knew why the Skullcutter even has random crits enabled at all. All other sword-like items do not have random crits, yet even though this one does, it's not listed in the description. It feels to me like they forgot to add the “No random Crits” penalty and just left it like that forever instead of fixing it.

[@FBombFitzgerald]

I dunno, that seems incredibly lazy and irresponsible. Oh wait, we're talking about Valve!

[@dustin202]

@@FBombFitzgerald they have updated TF2 more than gamefreak has made good decisions

[@ilikewindows3455]

There was a VERY brief time when all swords had damage penalties, but had random crits as a trade off. It only lasted for a few hours, because the idea was fucking stupid and valve had a lot of shit thrown at them for it

[@FBombFitzgerald]

@@dustin202 I'm just glad the localization files are up to date. Valve is serious about making sure that when the bots headshot us, it's all in the right language.

[@FBombFitzgerald]

@@ilikewindows3455 Wait what?!? That's crazy... that could be a video in and of itself!

[@IceColdPistol]

Zesty, I am extremely disappointed that no one, not you or your chat, had noticed and taken advantage of the very obvious pun to be made; that you put the Tide Turner (the Pirate Wheel) in high C (High Sea) tier

[@dingusdangus1790]

A rank: universal optimal B rank: circumstantial optimal, universal viable C rank: personal preference viable D rank: meme viable E rank: non viable

[@bindstf2]

the problem with the caber was it's ability to 1-shot medics and clear points. Make it do 125, remove deploy and swing speed, and I think a cool change would be to make it so doing damage with the blown caber regens it. lowering the threshold to 3 shots against light classes when exploded is enough of a downside.

[@fastcow7013]

@@largin386 holy shit shut up with the "eew comp player" shit. You dont know how comp even works yet you make these assumptions as if comp players are anti fun. No comp player cared about nor wanted the claid nerfed. We basically forgot demoknight existed. No comp player cared about nor wanted the caber nerfed.

[@fastcow7013]

@@largin386 YOU need to stop this circle-jerking narrative that comp players are why your favourite items get nerfed.

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

We could add a new stat to fix that that literally just says "-20% damage against medics". An obvious fix, and a bit unorthodox compared to usual tf2 stats, but why not?

[@ZestyJesus]

I too think one shotting medics was a bit much, I think capping the damage at 130 would have been fine.

[@kademorrill7334]

@@largin386 The only point this post makes is that you have never played against someone who can airstrafe and don't know what comp is

[@GlitchStick]

"Ya'll remember the old sticky jumper where you just vomit out 6 sticky's and launch yourself at the enemy team at Mach 9?" Ah, yes. The Human Missile.

[@Nicky2414]

*Demo-Mains that see a Zesty Jesus Demoman Tier List:* "If you were huntin trouble lad, ya found it!"

[@Nicky2414]

@Soldier [TF2] Yeah...And Rick May...but he is up there with God now giving him a sensible haircut and rocket jumping with the angels.

[@ivantan2841]

Heh no wonder why after 2 years of using loose cannon as my main i still suck at it

[@tsamuki9044]

How is this comment 11 hours old The video's only 1 hour old

[@ivantan2841]

@@tsamuki9044 >:3

[@dustin202]

@@ivantan2841 :-]

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

@@tsamuki9044 patreon

[@ivantan2841]

@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 no lol i just saw the video 1hr ago and just commented xd

[@aereonexapprentice7205]

Reminder: The scottish resistance need not to be used for multiple active traps at once. Pop some on the back, some on middle, and some on the front, and focus the only ones in front of your eyes. When you run back, the other traps become a safety net, kinda like a sentry backup plan.

[@TacticalOmelette]

I think Zesty is quickly turning into my favorite TF2 content maker. He plays the game with a casual mindset and is focused on just having fun, instead of being competitive and wanting everything to be as balanced as possible/competitively viable. He’s not afraid to speak his own mind and say things like it is. And he’s just all around entertaining to watch. So props to you Zesty, you’re helping me remember why I love this game so much, and why I have 3,000 hours in the game.

[@Bun_McByuun]

I can't help but feel his mocking voice is Adam Sandler and honestly I love the idea of Adam Sandler arguing with Zesty on TF2 weapons

[@Znegva777]

Fun fact about 5 heads + splendid screen , with every single head taken your shield bash damage encrease , so basically you doing a freaking 131 shield bash damage , you can one shot light classes with ease.

[@WooHooLadttv]

To make the caber even more of a gimmick, still one shot light classes, and a super funny weapon have it always kill the demo, besides uber of course, would create some silly moments. Would (hopefully) make people laugh seeing two people go boom at once, I mean most demos kill themselves after the big boom anyway.

[@funbro99]

Hello woohoo, nice to see ya again...when ya gonna tf2 again?

[@tvcat5096]

Well now you cant get a kill streak with caber knight

[@mywither7878]

You already have to run back to spawn to recharge it, no need to make it kill him when he's effectively taking a respawn timer with the walk back

[@saber2802]

woohoo, when will you woohoo woohoo. Woohoo ?

[@ryanmyers4205]

We meet again in the comments

[@a_blind_sniper]

I think Valve replaced the claidheamh mòr's max health penalty with damage vulnerability so that it only affects you while the weapon is active. Otherwise it's a constant effect as -15 hp. I agree that it's not intuitive anymore but it's a tough thing to balance

[@Countsmegula]

Holiday Punch also stops the Demoknights, and is hilariously fun to pull off.

[@NickIvanRowan]

8:20That guy that considered the caber load in loch and load needs shoutout

[@WooHooLadttv]

YES HERE WE GO ANOTHA BANGER INBOUND "Buff the caber" Damn, got pretty real pretty fast.

[@Intrafacial86]

Ahh, my class of choice. A few things: 1. How would you feel if the Demoman could equip the Base Jumper in either the primary _or_ the secondary slot, allowing him to use it with pills? I think this plus a Loose Cannon could be an interesting combination. 2. I like the Iron Bomber for three main reasons: a) the smaller blast radius means I can fire at targets closer than stock before hurting myself b) the shorter fuse offers fewer opportunities for pyros to damage me with reflectiles c) the high friction rollers provide a less punishing alternative to sticky jumping 3. My gut keeps telling me there’s a yet-to-be-discovered powerhouse subclass with the following loadout: Booties, Quicky, Eyelander. However, I don’t think I’m brave enough to attempt it myself.

[@eisgnom7383]

The last one was a thing once, but valve nerved it by making the speed boost from the boots only apply when you wear a shield. And personally I don't think it's worth giving up your primary for 25 health.

[@vivelespatat2670]

The smaller blast radius only affect enemies, it's the same for you regardless of the Blast Radius modification, the Direct Hit still inflicts self-damage in the same radius as the Rocket Launcher, my guess is its to make explosive jumping consistant across all weapons.

[@hyperdimensionbliss]

Zesty shitting on comp players whenever he can singlehandedly makes him the best TFtuber ever.

[@MoronicRoc]

Good grief, I hate ignorant players like you that automatically assume comp players are anti-fun.

[@sketti4171]

^

[@hyperdimensionbliss]

@@MoronicRoc It's not being ignorant, it's called being sick of comp players' shit.

[@aSmallGreenDot]

@@MoronicRoc we're the most oppressed minority

[@Drakedrag74]

@@hyperdimensionbliss Care to explain the shit? What have I as a comp player ever done to you?

[@eva2602]

34:32 this is why i watch your videos, zesty. a one second sentence mixing gag in a 44 minute video? gold.

[@medaltable]

You are the best tf2 youtuber of the Post-Jerma era. Dont feel pressured to release these tier lists, take your time man.

[@thechosenjuan8776]

My guy I really appreciate this, your buttery voice filling up 40 minutes like that is exactly what I need in my recommended. No pressure but if there’s 7 more of those coming, I’m hyped lol. (but you 're obliged to complain about the spinner being loud at the start of every video)

[@somefries3101]

I love his voice when he gets angry and serious

[@vitoralexandre8325]

you are the best tf2 youtuber ever,please keep doing,what about a video of ideias for new weapons in tf2? like especific weapons that you think classes need,it would be really cool to see

[@ImGonnaFudgeThatFish]

I wish Valve never reverted the sticky launcher nerf. It made complete sense: it made traps (the whole point of the weapon) more valuable as they are literally mines that stick. Instead, people accustomed to holding down the mouse and spamming whined real loud that now they had to get better with the primary that they never use

[@CaptainApathetic]

Imagine using the stock sticky launcher and not the sticky launcher Demo goes wheee

[@luisrivas6351]

Pretty sure comp players bitched about it. Sadly heavy’s minigun initial spin damage was never reverted.

[@purebred9272]

The nerf made him weaker against sentry nests and made him mince meat against scouts(more then he is already). The nerf did not change the tactic of getting in the demos face, instead it made the punishment for fighting a demo midrange less so(again ,scouts more then already). If you want to nerf the stickies like before, you have a range ramp up instead of a damage ramp up. A range ramp up(meaning how big the blast radius is) would allow demos to still be the meaty damage dealer while incentives aim rather then mindless spam. A damage ramp up would make stickies only good for block off paths or traps, and no the grenade launchers are discount rocket launchers just with slightly better falloff but with no splash(again, scouts). As for what is skill and mindless. which is better? trapping a doorway or corners that the enemy can't see around and waiting for them to willing or stupidly make the choice for you while you only have your pills to help, or make the fights yourself and lay down damage to kill or back off the enemy. To give a perspective. Using the scottish resistance to A) lay faster stickies at enemy sentry nests, B) create a minefield as the fight goes on, or C) destroy enemy stickies. All that rather then using them as traps shows it has more potential being an active weapon then a passive one. That says more then what people think the stickies should be.

[@MeAMoose]

I think your critique of the Eyelander is unwarranted. In the context of your criticism you were referring to a full DemoKnight, which is a melee only class. It makes absolute sense for a full melee class to have high speed and health considering the range that they are playing at. Lowing the max speed with 4 heads to be lower than a scout makes scout a strong counter to DemoKnight. What tops this even more is that a DemoKnight is completely hard countered by a single pyro using airblast.

[@ihazplawe2503]

Also demoknight is hard countered by sentries also

[@pl4nty]

I wouldn't say it's unwarranted, but it's very biased towards low-to-mid skill levels (same as his tide turner points - trimping's skill ceiling is nuts). Aim and particularly awareness are demoknight's hardest counters imo. A good example are his points on heavy - eyelander/screen isn't broken against decent heavies, cause their knockback is so strong. It's like saying spy is broken against heavies; sure, backstabs are a one-shot but they're risky. Same goes for blast damage, soldiers (or rarely demos) who can juggle+airshot are almost as hard as pyros. I think the flaws in his critique are just a lack of experience against demoknights (and/or overexposure to pubstompers), but from this, his views probably align with a large part of the community.

[@aircall2065]

@@pl4nty .. HOLY SHIT DEMOKNIGHT IS JUST SPY

[@pl4nty]

@@aircall2065 pick classes 🤷‍♂️

[@aetu35]

Caber is broken, sometimes it shows as blown up when ready and sometimes when you hit someone it doesn't explode at all while looking like its exploded

[@shoeofobama6091]

the hitbox size isnt a big point in the grand scheme of things. the more consistent rollers and fuse time are just better for DM since the pipes dont fuck off into another dimension the second they hit the ground. stock rollers are significantly worse since if youre aiming near the enemy, they wont hit them. funny how you say the iron bomber is better only for spamming when thats the only situation stock can concievably outperform the stock

[@MartinPurathur]

True

[@Nigel-nv3lr]

Indeed, I find that when people fight demos, they either strafe left to right (like other demos, soldiers, or snipers) or try to close the distance (like scouts, battle engies, pyros). It's rare that they retreat in a straight line away from you. That's why I find the iron bomber better, there's a much higher chance that the roller will hit a strafing enemy

[@222MovieMan]

Yup his argument is weird. He think it's more important to get damage from stock rollers instead of having an "extra help" to hit directs with the iron bombers bigger hitbox.

[@shoeofobama6091]

@@222MovieMan that isnt the main benefit though. stock rollers are worse than IB rollers because they by nature move away from whatever target youre trying to hit. you either hit directs or get roller damage, but in trying to do one you cannot do the other. for iron bomber, you can aim for directs and still get rollers if you miss when if you aim for directs with stock, the rollers just go into the distance. i just want IB hitbox fixed so badly because ive ranted about this literally over 20 times and im getting carpal tunnel

[@222MovieMan]

@@shoeofobama6091 Yep and that is why Zesty's argument is trash.

[@DeadPanTV]

The sheer rage in his voice at the base jumper was great

[@lexi3312]

Caber should definitely be at the bottom tier, the explosion doesn't even work a lot of the time.

[@Nameless_Cat_IsAGoodGame]

Half Zatoichi is basically around the middle of the demoman melee's when it comes to viability for both demoman, demoknight and hybridknight, a nice all rounder that works with so many sets, but can be outclassed by better options in certain situations, only really being the best at being tanky with the chargin' targe and boots, and even then thats debatable between the Eyelander with 4 heads

[@DoofXMachina]

The zatoichi is my least favorite demo-anything weapon. It's such a copout, and on demoknight, is just ridiculous since its downside does nothing

[@Nameless_Cat_IsAGoodGame]

@@DoofXMachina I mean yeah to be fair there is no downside to using a dull demoknight loadout loadout on it, kinda like the persian persuader, but I just like health back on kill to be aggressive or not needing to rely to much on medic or health packs so my team can use them instead

[@brokenspike2768]

@@DoofXMachina unfortunately when demoknight you gain a massive downside “can’t fight pyros”

[@thatkoboldgaming7114]

Personally I'd give the pain train like a 15% movement speed buff while carrying the intelligence briefcase or passtime jack

[@hauntix]

haha ur

[@thatkoboldgaming7114]

@@hauntix I wouldn't joke hauntix, I still have photographic evidence of both you and your partner trying that "Oops, I accidentally Reported You" scam

[@hauntix]

@@thatkoboldgaming7114 Wasn't me sending those, account got taken cuz I fell for that first

[@thatkoboldgaming7114]

@@hauntix Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. You think I'm f**king supid?

[@hauntix]

@@thatkoboldgaming7114 No

[@m.aga_]

Literally been waiting for this for a week, jumping in my seat

[@purplehaze2358]

1:18 The guy in chat saying he hopes it’s demoman. Got what he wanted lol

[@danielsurvivor1372]

5:53 Swing speed penalty is pointless, I mean sure remove it, but it doesn't really affect Caber effectiveness either way. Either using it with sticky jumper or shield, you will only use it as a one off.

[@Phhase]

Here's a point on the Iron Bomber that I don't hear talked about: mobility. The fact that you can shoot it at the ground and it won't roll away means you can use it to reliably grenade-jump, allowing you to use a shield without sacrificing all of your vertical mobility. It's surprisingly useful.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

39:53 This weapon needs it's own video because I still don't understand why Zesty hates it, and I hope full video on it will explain it. Because, didn't Zesty complain about Base Jumper not being broken because it counters Explosive classes and Scouts and that comp players whine too much even tho Zesty now complains about full heads Eyelander countering explosive classes and scouts? He even suggested Heavy to counter Base jumper users, but isn't it literally also Demoknight counter??? Unless Demoknight has a lot of distance and Heavy is unrevved, he can NOT one shot Heavy because he will get melted by Heavy. Natasha is obvious counter, but so is literally every other minigun. Also the insane fire resistance doesn't even matter since Pyro can just airblast spam Demoknight. Or you don't even need to spam it, just use one airblast to stop charge, and then pepper Demo with shotgun while you occasionally airblast him to keep him away.

[@DoofXMachina]

Thing is, heavy slows demoman down just by shooting him. And your wrong, demo can essentially one shot heavy. A four head splendid screen does 134-135 damage, and a crit melee does 195. So ye, easily moved 300. Plus, it's difficult to just airblast a demo and pepper him with shotgun shells since the shotgun does more up close. And finally, the reason hes ok with the base jumper is because you can dodge until the soldier or demo lands. With full heads, hes just permanently extremely resistant and such

[@lordlunchmoney]

@@DoofXMachina If you think it’s difficult to airblast a full melee class away from you and hit them with a shotgun, you shouldn’t be giving advice here.

[@DoofXMachina]

@@lordlunchmoney never said it was difficult to hit him. I only said that since it doesnt do much damage unless your shoving it up their ass. Plus, you only have a certain amount if airblasts. Even less with such things as the back burner or even degreaser, if your low on ammo, or if your using the phlog. So no. I should be giving advice. And the fact you noticed a single thing I said and said "oh you cant say shit" because of it, your the fool here

[@lordlunchmoney]

@@DoofXMachina Dude, you're claiming that pyro isn't a hard enough counter to demoknight. That's so many levels of stupid, I fail to even begin to comprehend it.

[@DoofXMachina]

@@lordlunchmoney I quite literally never said that. I just said it's difficult to pepper him with weak shotgun shells. Your the one being rude and miscontruding my argument

[@junpei8880]

I use stock and iron bomber interchangeably in pubs. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think each largely boils down to personal preference. It's the game's best example of a direct side grade in my opinion: Stronger in some circumstances, weaker in others, but feels unique. The reason comp demo so highly values the iron bomber over stock comes down to specific circumstances the demoman faces in comp that rarely come up in casual play. The main situation that comes to mind is when the demoman is forced to defend against a "Sack wave", where anywhere from 1 to 5 players dive in at the Demoman and Medic in a coordinated suicidal strike with the sole goal of killing the medic or forcing the ubercharge. Sack waves of two soldiers bombing in from the skybox at Mach 2 attempting to sync rockets on a Medic + Demo Combo are a common occurrence in Competitive that you will rarely if ever find in a causal setting. Because of the iron bomber's increased pill hitbox and the more weighty, predictable feel of its arc, the iron bomber gives the comp demo a not insignificant increase in his ability to pull off airshots against top level sacking soldiers, which can often lead to the survival of the medic/ubercharge and preventing the loss of a round. Additionally, players in competitive are much less likely to be grouped up in ways that the demoman can take advantage of with his stock pills and stock rollers, making the reliability of the IB's stationary rollers another tool in an expert demoman's toolkit. Having said this, these things are usually insignificant in casual play and which launcher I use largely comes down to which launcher best suits the specific map or scenario at hand. Good vid :)

[@BlazingShadowSword]

The Loose Cannon is the best for airblast happy pyros since you can make the cannonball explode right in their face with good timing.

[@mmaaxxkk5177]

I'm loving these ad breaks lmao. Fun discussion too. Keep up the great work Zesty!

[@wealthybone2990]

Nice I'm happy to see you do a tier list for demoman as he's one of my mains and probably favorite to play just because there's so much things you can do with him probably out of any class but when I see you upload man I just get happy you're a great content creator.

[@derp6443]

Demonman

[@cadetwright6496]

Same here friendo you can be hybrid knight like being a dangerous scout with a primary that does 100 on hit along with reach on your melee, stock demo the most powerful demo of all with it's demolition capabilities to singlehandly defeat ever class in game, then demoknight in different variations of weapons.

[@wealthybone2990]

@@derp6443 Blame auto correct for that annoying shit.

[@222MovieMan]

Demoman is so much fun to learn and master

[@chilX3467]

The loch n load is amazing for hybrid knight, that extra damage against enemy buildings helps compensate for the loss in effectiveness against sentries. The loose cannon isn’t that great imo, it’s the worse grenade launcher for taking out buildings and you can’t land consecutive double donks because your target is most likely either gonna get knocked around which messes up your aim or they’re gonna get sent flying on the first double donk which makes it almost impossible to land another one. It’s only good for dealing high burst damage with one shot if you can get the double donk which requires more brain power than just landing all of your pipes with the other grenade launchers.

[@xavior1352]

the caber was op because it could 1 shot meds. they did change it badly. but thats the reason

[@xavior1352]

@@largin386 a demo is worth a med. and unless you are really good at airshotting you wont be able to stop him. im mostly referring to sticky jumper + caber of course. and comp players do look up. im not even a comp player but I think it was busted in comp. and I do think sniper is overpowered. also if you want to have a discussion make it civilized. and take a less angry tone

[@anudee7142]

@@xavior1352 the solution is simple one cap out the caber's damage so that it can't one shot medics but it can still can one shot other light classes instead of that valve made the caber can't kill anything

[@xavior1352]

@@anudee7142 agreed

[@anudee7142]

@@xavior1352 I don't trust valve at all to balance weapons because there track record is awful

[@xavior1352]

@@anudee7142 valve. and kinda yeah

[@soundproof132]

Great video Zesty can't wait to see which class is next!

[@CaptainApathetic]

I open a case on occasion. I treat it basically the same as a lotto ticket, I know I probably won't make any profit off of it but it's fun to try my luck every now and then. The problem is trying to make a profit off of it, that can turn into an addiction.

[@MartinPurathur]

Also about the iron bomber range issue; just use the jumper. No problem with range when you can be wherever you want to be.

[@aSmallGreenDot]

thats my favourite demo loadout

[@beppermint4092]

the entire reason the sticky jumper isn't a god tier weapon is because you *lose stickybombs for equipping it*... it just doesn't make sense to give up one of the most reliable weapons in the entire game to compensate for your primary's flaw. just use stickies for long range instead of the iron bomber lol

[@Italian_Isaac_Clarke]

Eyelander 5 heads is balanced because you renounce any ranged damage in full knight and hybrid is still balanced.

[@Zoolooman]

Superb list! The Persuader is incredibly strong and I'm glad to see you enjoy it as well. :3

[@What_A_Shane]

I prefer the Iron Bomber because you can use it to jump when playing Hybrid Knight for some extra vertical momentum from anywhere.

[@blacklight683]

20:52 in Middleville mode some mad man just destroyed our team by 5 frkin crits in a row we all pushed to last and this guy just came and killed us all with crits like mad man

[@purplehaze2358]

Don’t you just love winning the TF2 lottery and getting a factory-new unusual before the actual start of a video?

[@R4ND0MCR4P123R4ND0MN3SS]

Zesty Jesus is super angry Jerma. I love it.

[@blockwearingman]

we need a community tf2 game before meet your match, zesty you got this

[@shoeofobama6091]

if this tier list is a general tier list, frankly none of the demoknight options or the scotres should be so high up, since they only really perform well in environments where the enemy team doesnt know what theyre doing, and in that case isnt every weapon good

[@mauroghen9157]

Nah demoknight is comp viable. Its just that demo’s stock weapons are just bread and butter and.. I mean you’re taking up a demoman slot. And not many are trying to master demoknight as much as theyre trying to master stickyspamming.

[@shoeofobama6091]

@@mauroghen9157 demoknight is not comp viable, granted he needs to be in melee distance of enemies to do anything, and long before he would be killed by soldiers scouts or demomen. he would be worse than spy

[@shoeofobama6091]

plus, calling sticky bomb launcher use stickyspamming is like calling scattergun shots bullet spamming or every rocket fired rocket spamming. it takes skill, but because it has one situation where it is effective at low skill levels, against low skilled players people call the whole weapon a spam weapon.

[@andybogdan4380]

@@mauroghen9157 comp viable? Maybe. Pub servers? Yes. If you meet an enemy team who is good enough, has sentries/pyros who m2? You are a burden to your team, worse than a spy.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

What else do you think, he put a fricking EYELANDER as OP tier...

[@sapo7304]

i didn't know jerma was such a weeb

[@goodassjob7714]

Bionicle transcends the concept of anime

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

For me, the Loch N' Load's problem is that it fries muscle memory.

[@hydrasent563]

11:07 I mean you can kinda still do that with just 2 stickies depending on how open the map is

[@xavior1352]

note: zesty. it seems to me you get very close to strawmanning people. im assuming you know what that is. be careful

[@sants2674]

He does that a LOT in all his other videos. I worry he may be too used to doing a whiny voice when voicing opposing opinions.

[@xavior1352]

@@sants2674 yeah ik ive noticed it for a while but here are some competitivley based weapons and it happens a lot here. that not a good thing

[@MartinPurathur]

He really does

[@danielsurvivor1372]

I'm more bothered by him thinking Eyelander+Shield somehow counters Explosive classes and Pyro, even tho Pyro can literally just use airblast to counter both hybrid and Demoknight. And explosive classes mostly hard counter full Demoknight and soft countered by pro hybrid demo, but he had ZERO issues with said Explosive classes being HARD countered by base jumper on top of scouts being hard countered as well... Also his "just use Heavy vs Base jumper lol" critique literally applies to shield+eyelander demos as well so..

[@Pogi820.]

First, what he said was that the Hi GPS platform made an update to demoknight that gives him knockback resistance, so airblast didn’t do much and that’s when he nearly never died, Zesty talked about an experiment, while also giving his opinion about Eylander 5 heads that grant demoknight pretty much heavy health against 2 damage types while also having the ability to chase scouts since he is faster than then, which crosses the line of scout being able to counter demoknight, thus proposing a little nerf that keeps him with a bit lower health yet high, and a good mobility that won't be faster than scout. About the B.A.S.E jumper: from what he said, not only heavy can counter this but also a sentry, a sniper and in most cases the scout (every hitscan). That’s 3 more classes, it is good to remember that by using this mobility tool you sacrifice your primary damage dealer for demoman and the secondary for soldier that has fall off damage dealer, which is a pretty heavy deal. Lastly, from my experience of watching his videos, whenever he uses the whiny voice that represents another opinion of the fan base or mostly, the competitive one, he gives a full, respectful answer to it, I think it's more of a comical use rather than a disrespectful one. This video only had some less explanations, but the argument wasn’t the main purpose of the video, if he wanted he could make a video that includes all of it, but does it worth the effort of making a video on? He has his reasons to not like competitive TF2 players and you should keep in mind that he didn't really do much to them except giving his opinion on certain topics of the game. (BTW is it really right to criticize someone through the internet and determine if he is good or bad with simple terms? "It's the internet baby!" Everyone says whatever they feel like…) (Sorry for making it long, what do you think? I will be happy to know :)

[@TiredLowBrass8048]

hot take: the reason why demoman is balanced and sniper is not is that demoman has to commit to a pretty sluggish reload if he misses. Now, sniper's rifle does have a longish reload, but there is no point where the sniper thinks "oh shit, I missed all my shots, I have to reload them all, oh god this is gonna take forever." I feel like after every four shots sniper should be forced to do a hard reload which takes time, giving *downtime* in between shots. Just like how demoman can sticky spam and lock down a chokepoint, but can't constantly lay down a wall of stickies for an entire minute because the long reload time of the sticky launcher gives the enemy a tiny bit of down time to push in and not have to deal with the menace that is stock demo.

[@FBombFitzgerald]

You're not wrong, but you're omitting something important. Comparing Sniper and Demo's reload times in a vacuum ignores the fact that Sniper's effective range is way bigger than Demo. A slow reload in a close/midrange fight is a death sentence. A slow reload when you're on the other side of the map is way less punishing.

[@TiredLowBrass8048]

​@@FBombFitzgerald I completely agree, but even a tiny window for a scout to flank can get that sniper down. Take harvest, a longer reload after fourish shots there means the sniper can't hit a scout that's running into the building he's almost certainly sniping from. It gives the scout a fighting chance. Because as it currently stands, sniper can literally hold down M1 for an entire minute with only a second of down time in between each shot, and removing quickscoping soft buffs turtling snipers by removing one of their weaknesses, so I think this change is probably warranted.

[@FBombFitzgerald]

@@TiredLowBrass8048 Great thoughts. Your hypothetical of the Scout running at the Sniper made me think of LazyPurple's sniper video with the overly committed Scout focusing him. I do like the HiGPS mod idea of just giving the sniper less ammo. I should make a video of some of the cooler stuff on the HiGPS balancemod servers, there really are some good ideas being tested there.

[@danger2236]

I’m glad i watched the promotion till the end to hear that line

[@somefries3101]

I love Zesty's speech when he's being sarcastic

[@halt1931]

It's unbelievably refreshing to see a large tf2 youtuber who isn't afraid of or constantly sucking off competitive players and their ridiculous metas. Sometimes it can get really, really old hearing arguments for trickle-down balance and the like. Also I cannot believe the base jumper thing. I just don't even know what to say. Pick sniper if scout doesn't work at medium to long range? Or use a pistol? Orr any other class that has medium to long range effectiveness?

[@hmmmstvethebaffled7720]

Yeah I love uncle Dane but I hate his trickle down balance video. He says that the nerfs are only for competitive players and that the casual players won’t notice, but I surely noticed, and I’m sure everyone else did too

[@Calvin_Coolage]

Did any of the banned weapons that Valve nerfed in Jungle Inferno even get unbanned? I know the Base Jumper is still banned, but I don't know about the others.

[@thatkoboldgaming7114]

22:46 I'm with Zesty on this one. Why does a weapon that has a damage bonus deal random crits?

[@Air21Man]

It makes sense that the Iron Bomber is the preferred 6s weapon since the smaller team size and differing team composition makes the blast radius penalty less important. Players are also going to be more careful to dodge the pipes, so the bigger hitbox making them easier to connect is more necessary. That said, the Stock Grenade Launcher is clearly the better option in a casual 12v12 game. You'll have up to 11 other enemies that can be affected by the splash damage, many of whom will be clustered next to other players and key targets instead of being properly spaced out. You'll see plenty more instances of turtling engies and medics performing mid-match colonoscopies, which the better splash damage can exploit. A bigger hitbox also doesn't mean much when choke points are so crowded with players that shooting anywhere is inevitably going to hit someone. The increased number of engineers in casual also better justifies the Grenade Launcher since is is better at destroying whole nests and any players near than the Iron Bomber is. The Stock Launcher is simply the better option in casual.

[@literallyvergil1686]

I don't think you understand how big the actual hit box is or how little the blast radius con is, the iron bomber grenade is 8 times the volume of a regular one and in general around 3 times as big in hitbox size you can hit people nowhere near it, shorter fuse time and less rolling means it will actually hit people with splash damage more than stock If you miss since they can't react to it fast enough, and 15% loss is literally a few hammer units it makes literally no fucking difference lmao

[@PissFromTheAbyss]

You're like a bizarre combination of Jerma and Adam Sandler. I love you.

[@stuffstuff6932]

Its so true about the Base Jumper. You used to be able to bomb up, deploy, fire some shots, drop down to avoid being a sitting duck, then redeploy it to avoid fall damage. Now when you use this you just take so much damage. I wish they would either revert it, give it a 1 second cooldown, immunity to fall damage or just something to make it not such a waste of a primary slot.

[@ihazplawe2503]

Why not give it a damage bonus while parachuting instead of a quick redeploy since most casual player use it as a bombing tool?

[@pl4nty]

They can't revert it, cause it was absolutely broken as troldier (I abused it for years). It's still very strong even now. Maybe they could separate the soldier and demo versions?

[@reagansido5823]

Something i don't understand about the whole "loch and load is a crutch" argument is this: why is loch seen as a crutch but the direct hit isn't? The only thing i ever hear about the direct is jokingly calling it a bad weapon but it has the same basic idea as the loch. You give up easy-to-use splash damage in exchange for shots that are easier to get direct hits with. The thing is, the loch only has more damage against buildings but the direct hit gets the bonus on all shots to everything. So why is the direct hit given a pass but the loch and load gets called a crutch?

[@coolsodapop12]

It's likely because the Soldier's rockets immediately explode upon hitting anything, while the Demo's pills will just roll about aimlessly for a moment. This means that the soldier can abuse this to a way greater extent as by the time your pills explode as demo, 90% of players will have just walked in the other direction. In comparison, soldiers can shoot at the ground near you and still have a somewhat decent damage output (though still worse than direct hits). Long story short, that instant splash damage marks a massive difference between the two classes, and demo depriving himself of rollerz for easier to hit pills isn't really all that much of a downside in around 70% of situations. However, the soldier's whole playstyle revolves around that AOE damage that he can easily apply, so trading that in for shots that are easier to directly hit with additional damage is actually a much more fair trade off in the context of both of their kits

[@andrewchapman2039]

The Scottish Resistance is hugely useful on offense, and the main reason is flankers. Scouts, Soldiers, Pyros, Spies, and occasionally huntsman Snipers, all make liberal use of the various alternative routes through most maps to try and get behind a big push and either distract or decimate the opponent. By laying down more obvious traps in these routes, you can direct them into predictable locations where your team is ready for them, or you have a more hidden trap prepared. Since you can see the stickies through walls, you can tell if they're being destroyed or airblasted, giving you the chance to warn your team and be prepared for the usually solitary flanker. This also wastes time for the flanker as they go around or disarm the trap, lest they risk rapid unplanned limb detachment surgery.

[@dopey473]

That Just Greg remix of Driver doe, hits the spot

[@soulcyclone360]

Giving the caber the ability to be thrown with alt fire could be interesting since it would be a full demo-knights only ranged option while still making it gimmicky.

[@NFGUN1T]

As someone playing TF2 since nearly 14 years consistently. I can tell Zesty is fucking on point about TF2 facts and stats. Pretty good serie so far ! Can't wait for the rest.

[@bulletsftw3655]

random crits become less random when you do more damage, no wonder soldier always shoots random crit rockets

[@Cookie_Magika]

Dang, you put a good point in random crits. Imma use it for my servers

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

I disagree with the eyelander thing, I think demoknight is perfectly fine where he is. _Maybe_ they could get rid of one head's worth of health, but not the final head of movement speed. Big movement speed is fun, and demoknight has no ranged weapons, so he needs a way to effectively close the distance. Then again what do I know I just enjoy drunk man go fast.

[@glitchedsushi]

Zesty: “the best melee for stock Demoman is the bottle” Me, an intellectual: P A N

[@dwormf]

AAAHAHAHAH Stout Stout ShaKO

[@danielsurvivor1372]

No. The only reason it's better than Ham is because it has strange variant, if it didn't ham would be popularer... Sadly I use Crossing Sign because strange Pan is too expensive and ham doesn't have strangifier

[@toxic_shr00m]

I forgot to say this for the pyro video, but I'm so glad you just pushed past the stupid drama. Excellent video as always.

[@ItsEvanHere]

28:24 This is now my default reaction to anything with my friends

[@soliderfromtf2810]

I'm sorry stock is so much better than the iron bomber. Stock is for people that can hit their shots and iron bomber is for people with less than perfect aim.

[@casualuser8064]

If this were true then the best players in the game would be using stock, but not a single one does.

[@Pinkooru]

I don't even have to watch the video to know the Loose Cannon is S tier, It deserves nothing less. Highest damaging primary? Yes. Most skill based primary for demo? Yes. Most satisfying weapon to use? Yes. The only downside of the Loose Cannon, is that if you're a stock main you ain't hitting those double donks because your brain completely lacks the braincells to time it correctly due to rotting for so many years.

[@andybogdan4380]

Although double donking is a dopamine rush when you hit the cannonballs, you can kill multiple people faster and more reliably with just spamming the 4 shots on the stock/iron bomber. It's S tier for skill, but most people just don't bother because stock/iron bomber already offers enough stopping power. The only time LC absolutely dominates over stock is if you shoot the balls at the exact range where timing them isn't necessary as that deals more damage than stock but just as fast. Also the knockback makes pyro's presence seem unnecessary as it can substitute the airblast vs ubers fairly well.

[@tireddice9109]

That Base Jumper rant is perfect

[@funbro99]

Meet ya after the stock vs huo long heater vid and honestly ...imma sub, will be enjoyable seeing ya future content. Hopefully more heavy content.

[@adammk8473]

i think random crits prevent the game from being a total sweat fest. So dying to an occasional bs random crit is perfectly fine for me.

[@Graveler28]

i like iron bomber bc the pipes land where i want them to, so im basically setupping a sticky trap with the rollers, like oh i missed the shot bc they decided to close the gap, i hit one direct, they start going back, the roller explodes, they go up into the air, easy air shot boom dead

[@vanishl.2693]

I like the change from a max health debuff to a vulnerability since it allows you to get a higher total of health from overheal that I believe is better then the less health but I’m not sure unless I do the math.

[@benjybrasington9508]

Grenade Launcher- Stock Iron Bomber- Easier to hit rollers, Easier to grenade jump, -30% range -15% explosion radius (Grenade jumping only matters with Hybrid Knight) Loch-N-Load- Easier pipes, longest range of grenade launchers, no rollers, -25% explosion radius, -25% sustain in fights and no grenade jumping Loose Cannon- Potential to deal more damage than stock, stronger against light classes, easiest to use for grenade jumps, weakest range of grenade launchers, Hitting the enemy without Double-Donking only deals half the damage of the other Grenade launchers

[@PineapplePineapplePineapplePin]

"There's a hidden little gem with the stock sticky bomb launcher that not a lot of people know" *gets ad* *"PIZZA HUT'S DETROIT DEEP DISH STYLE PIZZA IS BACK"* That made me chuckle

[@cowserthekhelinace]

Yo, that was me with the Random Critical Hits question! Your response was basically mine, but I would add a couple more stipulations: 1. You CANNOT get a crit on your first swing/fire/etc. from unholstering the weapon. For example, as a Demo, if you fire a single pipe, switch to a single sticky, then swing your bottle once, NONE of those shots will be a crit. 2. When you are about to fire a crit, your weapon gets some form of a crit glow broadcast to all who can see. That way your enemies can anticipate a crit, and try to become more evasive, take cover, or even be ready to airblast the crit rocket back. 3. ALL WEAPONS GET THE SAME 1% CHANCE, REGARDLESS OF SLOT.

[@ShakalatkA]

WE NEED MORE VIDS LIKE THIS

[@testhekid]

37:40 feels good to know that ur using such an amazing loadout

[@danielsurvivor1372]

27:10 Blast radius and increased blast splash dmg only matters if enemies literally hug each other, if not Iron Bomber will ALWAYS outdmg stock, and here's why. Shorter fuse time. It basically semi rewards Demo for missing pipes, because if enemy doesn't react too fast and run away, it will detonate faster, giving less time to run away or close the distance on Demo. Also because pipes don't bounce, they're more likely to stay near enemy team trying to do objective(for example cart or point) or protect objective. So no Zesty, Iron Bomber IS undeniably OP AF. It takes less skill to use and it rewards Demo for missing via shorter fuse on bombs and almost no bounce. Literally unless you playing Junction where the control point is in a very tight space, stock will suck compared to Iron Bomber, only reason to use stock over bomber is because Stock has a GODDIE looking Australium. And when demo loads grenades, They're golden, GOLDEN my guy. This aesthetic alone makes it worth using

[@NepSpoon]

30:23 Because playing Medic doesn’t make you afraid of everything one-shoting you as is

[@n1nsen666]

I think we all can collectively agree on one thing. The fact that Demo reloads his grenades into the same single chamber every time and doesn't evenly put a single grenade in each chamber should be a crime against humanity.

[@crissis3263]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6G0eGd5pbilb5I

[@nugget0928]

Your points about the base jumper are actually really good. It was fine before!