Do I Need A Buffer & Where Do I Put It On My Pedalboard? - That Pedal Show

[@ciaranloughran]

I can't afford a buffer pedal right now so just put a David Hasselhoff sticker on the board... Can't get any buffer than that...

[@ThatPedalShow]

hahahahahaha!

[@nickfit3]

Well played sir!

[@BlugubriousMusic]

Oh, yes you can... ask Bruce and Mike

[@cavanray6742]

How's the tone?

[@stevenlewis4385]

You made me want to get drunk and go to Wendy's.

[@andyboyd]

Somewhere out there, someone with more money than sense is currently buying a Klon to leave turned off at the front of their chain, just for the buffer.

[@andrewsmith1520]

This reminds me. I bought a replica Muff Fuzz pedal from one of the first people to make Klon Clones and he put the klon buffer in the muff fuzz and it's easily my favorite grit pedal I've ever tried, and I feel like I have about tried all flavors of them at this point and I am wondering now if the Klon buffer has had anything to do with that love.

[@rodrigoguaspari9445]

Yes! You know what? They should have a sequel to Guitar is Win video where he buys JHS 500.000 USD First Klon ever, and have someone buy it back from him and in the end they use it for that!

[@CorbCorbin]

@@rodrigoguaspari9445 Well, we know a lot of players who use it as just a boost, or always on clean tone, and I think we just witnessed why the Klon would seem to improve tone for many, regardless of it being on or not. I have the Empress Buffer, with effects loop, and it works perfectly. Input and output buffers, and it’s made to give the player their main amp tone back when pedals are bypassed. The problem for me was that it was such a different experience depending on the amp and the pedal within the effects loop/being buffered. I think this is why one would someone like David Gilmour has buffers made to go at the beginning, middle snd end of his pedal chain.

[@hoboroadie4623]

The headroom number is good. I see why all my friends have them.

[@bugeyedmudafuka2]

I have one at the begging and end of my chain. Dont judge me!! and eh and another for overdrive. And eh the spare one in case any of the others break

[@gorillafunk725]

Excellent! THANKYOU for clearly demonstrating the difference in the tone you can hear using these handy bits of kit. Instead of wanking on some re- parroted BS like so many other posts, Showing and then explaining "why is it so" Great work!

[@MrTendentious]

Dan’s mention of impedance mismatch shows the root of the difficulties. It’s the lack of an impedance standard in the guitar world that complicates everything. Back in the dim and distant past, somewhere between the death of the dinosaurs and the birth of the web, I spent years in analogue telephony, where almost all equipment had a terminating impedance of 600 Ohms. Any adjustments required the flatten out the response of the circuit were for the external cables that linked buildings and varied in length and conductor size.

[@chipsterb4946]

Bingo!

[@stevekirby7333]

Especially the input impedance of the amps, which varies all over the place.

[@chipsterb4946]

@@stevekirby7333 while there are amps with a range of input impedance, roughly 1 meg is fairly standard. (Yes, the resistor to ground at the input jack isn’t exactly impedance, but it’s a reasonable proxy.) Mesa dual rectifier 1meg Fender 1.034 meg Marshal 1 Meg Trainwreck 1 Meg Vox AC15 & AC30 1 Meg Gibson GA15 4.7 meg Gibson GA17 Scout 1 Meg Bogner Uberschall 100k Sunn amps 1 Meg Ampeg 1 to 5.6 meg Now effects loops *do* vary all over the place, both in send and return signals.

[@craigridley9618]

Great comment 👍

[@JasonClute]

Agreed! When I learned electronics and RF systems in school, you always wanted to match input and output impedance for maximum power transfer and reduce reflections. However, in guitar signal, you want a low output Z driving a high Z so it seemed wrong. But, in guitar your not worried about maximum power (V*I) transfer. Each gain stage in a pedal or in the amp is a voltage amplifier. That is until you get to the output transformer of the amp where it increases the current and matches impedances to drive the speaker. And reflections aren't going to matter since the cabling will never be long enough for this to matter. What makes guitar even more complex is that even with simple single note runs with minor clipping, you are getting a signal with mixed frequency components, with each having different relationships to the reactance and impedance. I'm always amazed at my tone when it comes out the speaker knowing all these things are happening in there. But proves the main point Dan made at the end. Its nice to understand this, but you still just need to listen and feel to decide what you need

[@adamf5541]

I’m 2mins in, I’ve learnt something crucial to good tone, and had a laugh. Thats classic TPS and why I keep returning to the channel. Love you guys.

[@ArvidNielsen]

You guys are masters of nerdery. This was absolutely fabulous. I needed this. Thank you!

[@MattXScott]

and now I finally understand buffers. If someone asked me what TPS is about and why I love it so much, I would show them this episode as a great example. thanks!

[@ThatPedalShow]

Thanks Matt 🤓🙏

[@pocojoyo]

Damn, at last ! someone who makes the actual comparison of long cables vs short cables

[@johndogwater]

It's all actually very interesting and as usual you are a valuable resource. Sometimes I just watch TPS to be cheered up by Dans' enthusiasm and joyfulness, sometimes so I can feel a kinship with Micks' obsessive, self reflective nature, but always to be inspired and encouraged. Love you guys.

[@barryprovost4597]

In my own buffer journey I have discovered how much my fuzz needed the guitar plugged straight in, even with a true bypass tuner in front it made a difference. With a buffered pedal after the fuzz and having a buffered pedal at the end, usually reverb and delay as I like trails at the end are doing the job fantastic. My main check-plugging straight into the amp and then the board until their is no difference was a big help. Thank you guys for saying how most of these buffers are great, can’t stand hearing this one rig builder saying there’s like only 2 or 3 that are good(not naming names besides a big “V”, hehe) Cheers!

[@JohnsDough1918]

I don't often have the time to go through a whole episode, but every time I do, I'm impressed by the increasing quality of the show's presentation. The dictactic segments with Dan at the beginning are a great idea!

[@adalbertoschuckjr.1509]

50:58. The buffer BEFORE Fuzz affect only when you turn down your guitar's volume. This is because Fuzzes use to have very low input impedance. So If you try to clean up the guitar's sound with your buffer on, it will respond in a very different way if it is off. Try this....Ah, you tried in 52:80 - 53:11. That's it Mick. The Fuzz with a buffer doesn't respond to your volume control the way you are used to. If you guys think, old Fuzzes are the opposite of what is wanted in a audio circuit. Instead of having High Input impedance and Low Output Impedance they are exactly the opposite: Low Input Impedance and High Output Impedance. And this is the key of their ´particular tones. Exception is the Big Muff.

[@Tony-Jabroni]

Agree’d, the big muff isn’t really a fuzz in the way i think of a fuzz.

[@adalbertoschuckjr.1509]

@@Tony-Jabroni Yes. Is is already buffered in some sort.👍

[@bleeknoir]

I need TPS every week. This week, I’m thinking buffers. Beautiful timing.

[@kurtisr2339]

The first minute of this episode was, all by itself, ridiculously eye-opening. @#$&ing brilliant. I won't say how many times I've watched it over the past few days. I will say: decades into this journey, these kinds of "a-ha" moments are a great pleasure--though not particularly rare with you guys on the job! Thanks a million, leg-ends.

[@mikefarquhar5063]

Yeah it took me about a week to get it all, no joke seriously interesting how it all works, what help we me is understanding the electricity isn't pushed or pumped, its drawn from positive charge to negative, obviously not any voltage going through your guitar but flow of frequency, the electric guitar is like an antenna positive charge or electromagnetism on the coils and magnets reacting to the oscillation of the strings. Its like a magnetic hearing aid for amp, and now they're getting so old the techs getting better lol, we'll soon have old age homes for amps.... oh wait yeah there are museums for famous stuff artists etc probably 🙄

[@jonathandranoff1721]

Gentlemen, this is one of your finest shows. Both of you balanced tonal considerations with the physics of current to arrive at rational conclusions. Somehow, you made the topic of buffers fun and exciting. Thanks for your hard work!

[@johnpannella]

I am a big believer that you should have an input buffer and an output buffer on your board. You can achieve this by using 2 buffers, one in front and one at the end. I prefer to use a dual buffer such as the Mesa High Wire Dual Buffer or the Empress Buffer +. The other important thing to remember is that you want you input buffer to be around 1 meg and your output buffer to be about 150 ohms. Essentially with a dual buffer you have your pedals in a loop, send from the buffer to your pedal chain and back to the return. The other thing to consider is a dual buffer with a boost feature such as the High Wire and the Buffer+. What I like about this is the boost will be at the very end of your pedal chain so it only acts as a volume boost hitting the input of your amp.

[@mikefarquhar5063]

Yeah I have a line matching transformer shure xlr male to ts jack range from 150, 600ohm, with an arrow pointing towards the ts jack marked HI-Z but that's just as it has 600ohms on it I mentioned. I think this is how I understand flow of current or electrons, it's not pushed from guitar to pedal to amp, the flow is drawn from demand from positive to negative, and more to do with magnetic fields for interference or loss or affected signal because componentsin the gears and outside electromagnetic interferencebeing drawn or trying to draw the singal etc all dependingon how well balanced everything is in a rig, pickups are picking up all the strings that are oscillating close to the magnetic rods and then depending on how many turns on the coil of the pickup and whatever rating of electrical parts in the guitar wiring etc pots, capacitors resisters etc- will determine the range of frequency in the signal that's left after anythings bled off to ground. So my question is somewhat biased because of me having a home use setup mostly 90% of the time is used at home, so telecaster/strat- digitech trio plus band creator (guitar in) then with the fx loop on the trio band creator(so I can have clean tones on looper and have the choice to go dirty) so I've got in order from fx send to jhs 3series comp- TC durple- TC bad horse- boss od-200 and then lastly a Gauss tape echo delay- then back round to return the signal into fx return on trio band creator plus. One output to a line 6 catalyst 100watt combo One output to my scarlett 2i2 3rd gen Audio Interface for drums and bass hooked up with Pc and studio monitors. For some reason, the volume levels are all up and down and especially with the Gauss tape echo delay pedal. It says it's got true bypass, so maybe adding a buffer before the time based effects? Or a switch around of the compressor in-between the Two tone city true bypass pedals and the boss od-200 which is buffered might sort the balance out, I'm making up a pedal board about 700mm X 400mm wedge have all the cable routes done and after this video im now considering pedals over multi fx like pod go. Any help would be appreciated 🙏 I'm I stick with pedals gonna get a loop switcher to spread it all out and make it easier to use and set up presets and set up with buffer/s in the best position but buffers have got my attention and now after seeing this video for a small rig with potential to gig... idk is there a way to know where to place in a chain each pedal taking into consideration their bypass setup true or bufferd and how many ohms in each and start closest to amp then work back or visa versa obviously delay into overdrive/distortion sounds rubbish, this making it more complicated. Are buffers like impedance transformers? Hi-Z to low-Z to high- Z Variable or set depending on model. Or more like transistor capacitors, heads spinning mate- I'm just wondering now if getting a loop switcher will help keep the signal if it has its own buffer/s or if its even need for a maximum of 10mtrs to 20mtrs of ts cable. Would high quality shielded cable keep the electrons or the magnetic field of the cables and therefore signal chain from losing signal/shield from interference outwidth the cables? So many questions, it is an interesting subject all because I love a good tone! all elements of the rig will have some effect on everything else directly or indirectly at some point. Think I need a buffer for my brain!... ⚡️🧠⚡️ or a Faraday hat. AWESOME!!!

[@conorlarkin1111]

So good to see Mick getting in the zone again. I know how it feels to be a bit disconnected from music during a busy period or tough mental season, so it’s always good to make a bit of a connection again. Really excellent information and explanations from Dan as well! Great video guys.

[@e.papascottcolvin7921]

One of your best videos. A year ago I add a Mesa buffer to my board night and day difference. Thank you

[@rileyioacura]

As much as I love John Mayer’s and Joe Bonamassa’s playing, I would honestly just listen to Mick play…. I never really could get into fuzz and blues until I TPS came along and now it’s like heaven every Friday watching and hearing Mick’s tone/playing!!

[@kevincaliva2449]

Agreed......... Although, I like Dan's playing, too!!

[@rileyioacura]

@@kevincaliva2449 Agreed…. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to make it sound like I don’t love dans playing… Dan’s tone is just unique and his playing is amazing, mixing jazz elements with rock and the blues!! So Dan I deeply apologise if it sounded like I didn’t appreciate your mega tone

[@jimbaaab]

Agreed. I love his work on all the Lethal Weapon movies!

[@winstonsmith8236]

Totally agree! Blues and pedals were new to me 5 years ago and now it’s a Suhr (Sonic blue w/rosewood neck!) Strat and my huge pedalboard as my mental happy place.

[@andrewsmith1520]

Just when I think it can't get more interesting, I keep watching and it gets more interesting! I love that you guys do the experiments that we all think about doing, but never take the time to do. So now we don't have too!

[@konnektlive]

Wonderful video! In fact, what I did since years ago, and the solution for my buffer dilemma was to strategically put multiple (three in my case) small 2-loops true bypass switchers everywhere in the signal chain (at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of chain) with only buffered pedals in their loops; and the rest of the pedals that are NOT in loops are all true bypass pedals. The reason I do that on my pedalboards is that I actually enjoy the effects that cables and lots of true bypass pedals have on my signal. I like that especially when I'm using my dirt pedals. There is a roundness, organic and sponginess that I enjoy when there is no buffer on the signal, even though with some guitars and some amps the signal after all those stuff in the chain may get a bit too dull. I don't mind that dullness at all when I'm using my drive pedals as they do have their own buffers when they're on anyway, and any other buffer on the signal would be unnecessary for me. However, having all those buffered pedals (Klon, Origin's Cali76, etc...) in different loop switchers in some areas of the pedalboards give me the option to enable them only when I need them. specifically for my clean and spanking tones I use the Klon buffer (Klon is off) first and then use the Cali76 as my compressor which sounds great for my clean sounds. On the other hand when I'm going to use my dirt pedals, or to use the dirt channel of my amps (mostly Friedmans these days) I simply turn all those loop switches off, and the effect of cables and true bypass pedals on the signal will show itself which IS what I want with my dirt sounds! I guess the question is, why use multiple small loop switchers, when you can use a programmable and big switching system such as a the GigRig? Well, the answer is that first of all as I said I do NOT want or need to have all my true bypass pedals to be in their independent and isolated loops to begin with as I like the effects they (including cables) have on my signal. Second of all, with most switching systems you cannot change orders of the pedals. And lastly, a switcher is only one unit and its place is fixed whenever you put it (before or after some certain pedals), and if you're using the amp's Fx-Loop, you need yet another big switching system for that! But by having multiple small loop switchers you can have them in multiple places and only turn them on (with their buffered pedals in their loops) when you need/want them. Cheers!

[@70mcnevin]

This is such a great episode. When I was in tech school 20 years ago. I wish everything presented would have been presented in the context of guitar, pedal, amp and writing code and programming for pro audio. It would have made so much more sense and put everything in a tangible context that still would've been absolutely usable across all industry. The intricacies and variation. The different programming language. RC circuits, buffers, transformers, transistors and gain staging, input and output impedance, series/parallel circuit analysis, etc...all of it would have been sooooo much more interesting with a guitar > pedalboard > amp> pedal switcher > attenuator > load *speaker* > AD/DA conversion > inductive reactance> memory addressing and timer circuits, mic interfaces, I mean, everything I ever ran into as a tech back in the day would've been right there and observable. It's just crazy.

[@Yupppi]

You guys have done great job at educating people about buffers and isolated power supplies. To the point that now the common reddit knowledge says that you should always have an isolated power supply and buffer! Did you guys know that if you limit the flow in the holes on the hose (partially plug the holes) you'll have enough pressure at the end of the hose so the flow reaches the end instead of running dry halfway! At the start you have a mask listing the cables in feets, but 5 minutes later Dan talks about meters! Somebody will surely get confused! I've been thinking about the buffer thing - that you'd like the buffered pedal shortly after the guitar output. But on the stage you optimally want a long leash to be able to move! You can't get around that unless you have a booster circuit or similar in your guitar.

[@BlugubriousMusic]

Ecosystem Affirmation! I have a bunch of cheap pedals on a board that I use for recording. I have always had a cheap buffer in one spot early. Because of the show, I "thought", I might need it at the amp. I did that, and the whole feel and system I was used to changed... it did not feel like "mine". On two guitars as well. I moved it back, but it proves the point. I built to my ears and for me (for me is the operative part and a big part of your point) it needed to go back. Believe it or not, I had the pain Mick played he had in the beginning, but this episode alleviated it! Thanks gents.

[@weschilton]

Guys, once again I feel like I've just graduated from a top college class on signal and tone... EXCELLENT demonstrations and explanations! Dan, you are a genius! I think everything you demonstrated is a great reason why G3 is such a great tool on any board--especially if you have fuzzes! And Mick, killer playing and tones today, you definitely looked like you enjoyed that!

[@robertshamansky1912]

Wow, I didn’t think the difference would so obvious! I spent a good chunk of yesterday researching buffers so the timing of today’s show couldn’t be better! Thanks!!

[@SergioAureo]

Great episode! Right now I’m only playing and recording at home and I built a small pedalboard in which I’m using a Strymon Flint at the very end of the chain in buffered mode and it just works beautifully ... Signal chain is Mythos Golden Fleece > Hudson Broadcast > Janis Miesnieks (you guys should check this OD out) > Mad Professor Deep Blue Delay > Strymon Flint into a beautiful Cornell Plexi 7 amp. As you say, this is a system and I had to sort out everything including the “cable mix” (Mogami Gold from guitar to pedalboard, Evidence Audio Monorail in the pedalboard and Evidence audio Melody from pedalboard to amp). After much trial and error I think I got it right. Playing a tele and an SG with this setup.

[@Purple_Pixel]

Watch Dan's explanation of electrical loss from resistance and capacitance and low impedance vs high impedance and it will all come together. (2:30 - 4:05) This is what makes this channel great.

[@nickharrington12]

Holy hell, Mick! I love the episodes when you guys really connect with what you’re playing. Your playing was glorious today. This was a really well done episode. Super informative. Nice work! Cheers guys.

[@spiltmilk615]

I’ve long struggled with the artificial top end of buffers (at least the ones I’ve had). What finally worked in my rig was an echoplex style preamp, the Chase Tone Secret Pre, set to unity and always on. I used to be snobby and think something “always on” meant you didn’t know how to use your guitar and amp. But as Dan said, you’ve got to use your ears to find what’s best in your rig (and don’t let people on the internet tell you what’s right).

[@adrianmiller1971]

Yup EP Pre's are the secret weapon, to buffering AND a sprinkle of magical "something" extra. You cannot turn them off once theyre on. My first test was Wicked Game, the opening open B string dive with the BadgerPlex on was immense, i could never play that tune without it on ever again - it was night and day. I tried to explain the magic to someone, who was dubious, but sent him my BadgerPlex (which i bought while i was in the middle of (hopefully) recovering from a shoulder injury) for testing, and he became a believer, even fixated :) I'd already been so impressed that i declared i would NEVER sell it. While he had it for testing, i promised him that if i had to give up playing, it would return to live with him, gratis. When it became clear my shoulder was never going to recover and i had to quit playing after 35 years, his first question, despite being a great mate was "what are you doing with the BadgerPlex? " :) It now lives with him, im a man of my word....ive told him i sometimes feel like calling up and having him play through it for me to hear its magic again :) The BadgerPlex build quality internally was above any pedal ive ever seen...and came with a spare unobtanium JFET to boot :)

[@mattflickinger8151]

But really, the buffers aren’t creating that top end sound, its just isn’t being dulled down..? Obviously they didn’t not touch on cheap buffers in this, but is that really possible?

[@spiltmilk615]

@@mattflickinger8151 The buffer won't amplify it but it can shape it. You can hear the difference in the types of buffers in the top of the section. Some sound spikier than others, which may be what you need based on your rig. Not what I needed in an EL84-type amp.

[@stevekirby7333]

@@spiltmilk615 As Dan explained, that is due to the relationship between the buffer and what's plugged in around it, and how the various input or output impedances affect the resonant peak frequency. There's no 'sound' to the buffer. The 'spiker' ones are just allowing the resonant peak to be higher than ones where the guitar has a higher source impedance, or the buffer has a high output impedance.

[@mattflickinger8151]

@@spiltmilk615 got it. I have only used the TC Electronics tuners for buffers, so never really compared before. I figured for the most part, buffers just presented a more direct sound which restored the high end, and didn’t have any tonal influence on their own

[@BrandonMarsella]

So I spent a some time with this after watching. I admittedly have ALOT of pedals on my board; 22 with no true bypass looper. Getting a buffer had been on my todo list for a while but sitting down and playing with this I don’t really think I need one. I put a boss pedal at the beginning and end of my board in a looper to play around. I have a Klone at position 8 on my board right after my tone bender. Turning on the buffer at the beginning does make a bit of a difference but as you suggested it ruins the fuzz tone. So while I’d like my first buffer to be a bit earlier this seems reasonable to me. The buffer at the beginning made the biggest tonal difference. The one at the end made no difference because I have a buffered bypass delay and reverb at the end of my board. All the rest of my pedals are true bypass. I do get some tone coloration from my belle epoch when turned on (which I use in true bypass mode) and drybell vibe machine. Buffers on the beginning and end of the board made no difference with this so I think it’s just the preamps in each pedal. Pretty interesting stuff. I’m glad I took the time to get my hands dirty with this. Well worth it.

[@jmacc9876]

Fuzz being a newly acquired taste to me I recently bought a JHS Smiley (silicon fuzz face style of pedal) when I put it in the "dirt section" of my pedal board I immediately thought it was broken it was sputtering and weak and dying-sounding (they also have a switch on the side of the pedal to also give it that sound intentionally if you want to). I was all set to look at returning the Smiley, then read online it needs to go basivally at the start of your chain and definitely before any buffered pedals. Once I put it at the start it sounded amazing (like it's supposed to) and cleans up really nicely. JHS should have put this as a direction paper in the box, but apparently this was supposed to be common knowledge. Anyhow thanks for explaining it here.

[@chrisopherhoness8292]

I love this episode, as a recent electrical and electronic engineering graduate all I can think is how much better my impedance matching lectures would have been with you guys and “are all buffers created equal” One thing I would have added is about how current is draw by resistance, it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. In that mind I think of the buffer like a jet or any fan, it sucks in and pushes out, that’s why it still makes a difference even if you have a long cable in front and a short cable to the amp

[@chipcaronte]

May I pick your brain for a moment? I want to do some testing generating pink noise somehow, run it into my pedals one at a time and taking a look at an EQ graph in my DAW. The objective is to see how does each pedal affects my signal and specially, how the EQ responds to dialing boosters. But HOW can I generate the Pink Noise?

[@michael_caz_nyc]

What you said @ 110:00 - so True. I had to move pedals around, & turn the internal buffer Off (on my Polytune 3) to make my Thorpy Muff sound less harsh. (exactly like you had-happen @ 47:00). I do-have a DD-500 & Big Sky at the end of my chain = both with internal buffers On. My sound is finally sorted-out, and I'm happy with it. Great episode fellas.

[@marvinrockon]

I just wanted to reassure where to put my buffer that's on its way to me. But i stayed for the deep dive, completely watched it. Bravo, subbed!

[@ThatPedalShow]

Welcome Marvin 👍

[@jloiben12]

That Rat/Tube Screamer difference can be heard through iphone speakers so I’d say that the microphones definitely picked up the difference you were hearing in the room

[@adrianhjordan1981]

The part about pickup inductance etc reminded me that Mark Foley always talked about inductance as well as output for his pickups.

[@DRChevalier]

I love the episodes with Professor Dan. I always get a lot out of them. Very well paced and informative, like a well delivered science class (that's a compliment - I went to school for Physics). As I am VERY new to fuzz, I was aware of the "it must go first" rule and then wondered how that worked with the treble booster "it must go first" rule. I am fortunate that neither of the fuzzes that I use (Wampler Velvet and Effectrode Mercury) seem to get all in a knot about being first. The JAM Rooster treble boost definitely wants to be first in my experience and it sits in front of the Velvet. Sounds great. The Effectrode Mercury is first on that board and followed by the Fireball boost which is not a treble booster per se, it is a tube based clean (ish) boost that I like with single coils but less so with humbuckers. Thank you as always for a superb show. You will cost me money, I really want a Two Rock. Is the Flying Buttress new? It's not on the Kingsley site that I could find. I really respect Simon and love his creations. I'm on the preorder list for the Artisan.

[@ThatPedalShow]

Thanks Ross! Yeah, we’re not sure if Simon is putting the Flying Butress into production. Good to hear from you man, all the best!

[@fewerowls6411]

Loving it! 80 minutes nerdy spodding on buffers? Haven't even watched it yet and just know it's gonna be a great one! Thinking ac30 in the toilet quality

[@DementedAugminish]

I just wanted to say it's nice to have you guys back at it. I appreciate you all. You're the only fellas that I could watch an hour twenty on buffers.

[@RobertJones-et7gh]

I've been playing for decades and this is the first time I'm starting to understand what a buffer is and what it can do, depending on where its placed. Thanks.

[@november2ndmusic]

Hey guys, Analog Man ARDX dual analog delay has own Analogman buffer inside.. if you turn the DELAY LEVEL down all the way (for just dry sound), and turn the delay on (buffered) and off (bypass). So you had two buffers in chain (with delay ON) when you tested the smaller pedalboard. Greetings from Czech Republic. We are big fans :-)

[@TheRemizinho]

I finally figured out why I loved my TS9 so much back in the late nineties, everything was just “clearer” when I had it in the board!

[@Pickup_Selector]

JHS little black buffer at the end of my bass chain. 12 pedals before that in front of the amp with a switcher. Works like magic. Everyone should use one!! 🍻

[@grosebud4554]

The sarno black box is excellent and really Will make any guitar and amp sound that much better. Originally designed for pedal steel it absolutely murders as a guitar buffer. Warms the tone up and gives it more dimension Edit: it’s just pretty big but it’s got a 12ax7 in it. Check it out there’s not many demos but lots of big players use them. They are pricey but the interaction with the pickups of guitars is the bees knees

[@lucasheidenreich7861]

Thanks for demystifying the whole concept of the PRS TCI (tuned capacitance and inductance) pickups. Basically just adjusting those values (with the physical construction of the pickup) to modify the resonant peak.

[@adrianhjordan1981]

I mean Paul had already admitted as much.

[@lucasheidenreich7861]

@@adrianhjordan1981 I just think Dan’s explanation was a little more clear. I remember when Paul first explained TCI it made me think that it was some kind of passive electronics happening in the circuit. Or maybe it just took a couple explanations for me to get it 😅

[@felipew101]

The single coil vs humbucker, high vs low output, different magnets, resulting in different inductances and that affecting the literal high end loss in cables. Eye opening.

[@onenotesolo256]

The buffer into the Secret Weapon was hilarious. Completely overturned the accepted “wisdom”. Dan (Drive) has done some magic - it’s the new Klon ;-O Some fantastic insights throughout this episode. Most of us are here for this “tedious” stuff - who else would throw an hour+ at this on KZbin. Great work as ever. Chapeau.

[@CorbCorbin]

The Vertex guy. He’s the only one who would talk about buffers more. He must have 20 videos on buffers. Except, although he says to play with one’s rig, get the sound they like, over listening to _his_ preferred way, he usually recommends the Mesa Boogie High Wire, or Empress Buffer, Buffer+, or stereo Buffer+. It’s usually because they have input and output buffers, and the effects loop. Leave any non buffer friendly pedals at the front, then the rest in the loop, and it works. But the high end difference can be disarmingly different, and one can find themselves trying to darken that tone up a bit, depending on the pedal being used.

[@kodykindhart5644]

The age old question Bright pickups or bright amp

[@ilovecops5499]

Ultra mega thanks. I put the BOSS CS-3 compressor at the front of my pedalS, and yes, the buffer really doe work. Infinite THANK YOU! 😇🥰😍🤩😋🥲💖💝💯👍

[@johntnardi980]

This video answered so many questions I had. Purchase quality equipment. Purchase hi end pedals and it sounds better without the pedals. What the what? After watching this I changed some pedals out. Moved others in different positions. I'm not quite done testing yet but. OH MY GOD! MY DrZ maz 38,PRS CE, D&M drive, protein, Thorpy TM and the other dollars spent.They sound great, finally! THANK YOU M&D and God bless you.

[@thebocollins]

THANK YOU for this episode. Dan explained something I've always heard but couldn't articulate. Removed/turned off all buffers post drive and added one at a time. What a crazy difference they make. Surprised to learn I DON'T like my Klon's buffer or my Strymon buffer AND I really love the BOSS buffer. Go figure.

[@jibboom86]

One hour 20 on buffers?!?! Who am I kidding... I'll watch the whole thing because it's you guys.

[@TimBentley]

Great show :-) That's the first time I've seen the "multiple buffer" issue explained - makes total sense now.

[@simonpark843]

Wow...twelve minutes in and this is already one of the most informative videos I've seen you guys do. Excellent work.

[@ArchitexMaze75]

An hour twenty on the dreaded topic of motherbuffers!!! That must of cleared up any confusion now, mind you always happy for the content and the input of knowledge and better understanding of signal chains, why not i say keep em coming! cheers lads

[@timhopkins3810]

A 2 hour video asking the questions “do I need a buffer and where does it go?” With the answer “maybe you do, maybe you don’t and it could go anywhere in the chain dependant on the chain”… A very large satisfying amount of nerding on this one, love it! 😊

[@druwk]

Dissection at the end is BRILLIANT! Exactly what I needed to learn. Might have to buy a slightly bigger board to make room for a buffer?

[@davegrice3423]

Some hard core nerding in this video, but excellent, excellent value to your viewers. No one else is going to take on a topic like this and spend the time to lay it out like this. Kudos.

[@ThatPedalShow]

Thanks Dave!

[@ChrisTotster]

The Empress buffer totally sorted out the fuzz pedal issue on my board, placed after the fuzzes with all other pedals in the buffers loop.

[@CorbCorbin]

I got one, and it definitely made some things better, I adjusted any pedal that sounded too bright, but certain things lost volume. My amp was immediately brighter and louder, at least it seemed louder, but for example, my Dawner Prince Pulse just doesn’t sound good through the loop. It has a lot of volume loss, and the effect just sounds weak. It’s a true bypass pedal. Other digital pedals have similar issues, except I can’t tell what the issue is. Guess that’s why the Buffer+ has the extras?

[@richmills1]

30 minutes in and I realise this has nothing to do with slaying vampires

[@ThatPedalShow]

🤣😂

[@markdennis2156]

TPS VLOG: We had to do 31 broken headstock repairs...

[@AB-ib8dm]

Buffer, the amplifier slayer?

[@andycornman783]

@@AB-ib8dm Thats solid gold :)

[@gordonrankin3995]

One thing to note here is if you have a number or series of pedals that have always on buffers this can effect your signal hitting the amp. One plus for a switcher! So humbuckers have higher inductance which will move that resonance point that Dan pointed out earlier in the show. All--- I don't make buffers but I was interested enough to try these and help out. Personally in my system T style (Dennis Fano built) clean amp was the bootstrapped which is what Cornish does in his products. My circuit is very different but common on the DIY circuit. All the ones I build here were done of DIY schematics on the net. Also after I heard the tube buffer that I may do that as a product. My fav line of pedals is Guitar->Treble Booster->Fuzz->Boss Tuner (Buffered)->POT->Flanger (Mad Professor Double Moon)->Jam Ripply Falls->Delay (still up in the air)->Tube Clean Boost (mine)->Amp.

[@ThatPedalShow]

Thanks so much for all your help Gordon, so grateful 🙏🤓

[@bloemundude]

I finally understand what buffers do!!!! It's all came together for me from Dan's explanation around @7:00. My stumbling block was always thinking that a buffer could neither "re-build" what's been lost before it in the chain, nor could it psychically solve problems that occur after it in the chain. I was not thinking electrically because of all the darn "water" analogies. The problem in the analogy is that the water coming out the end is the same regardless of how much hose you use, and to increase the pressure would be analogous to a boost and not a buffer. Perhaps water explanations should move to the Mediterranean and retire.

[@mattw.6726]

This was timely. After playing for almost 30 years, I've got my first fuzz pedal arriving in a few days. As such, figuring out how that will work with the buffers in my setup is going to be just a tad bit important.

[@mlewmisc]

Can I just shoutout Simon quickly? The production quality is top-notch! Feels like I’m watching That Pedal Movie!

[@onurbektas7074]

56:04 I think, what input impedance the output of the fuzz face sees matters for the fuzz face’s tone. Changing the output impedance of the kingsley buffer only affects it indirectly. In other words, increasing the output impedance of the kingsley only tries to lower the unwanted top end that resulted from placing a (very?) high impedance buffer after the fuzz face. Am I wrong? So I think, changing the input impedance of the buffer that follows the fuzz face would control the characteristics of the fuzz tone more. I have a radial engineering di that has an adjustable input impedance which I find very useful. Very nice episode, thanks.

[@andymarsal]

Great one guys! The ability to retain high end while turning down the guitar volume is amazing! All my pedals are true-bypass, I added true-bypass to my wah :D So what I did to gain the advantages of a buffer is I switched my last pedal - TC flashback to buffer mode (it is switchable between true-bypass/buffer)

[@adam614ce]

I do exactly what you do Dan, use a reverb buffer (Flint) at the end of chain and I AB’d it several times, and it really works well. I recently built a Creation Audio Labs buffer box, and it’s the best buffer I’ve ever heard, but I just still don’t like it at the front of my chain, and never have liked any buffer up front with the tones I like, which are Blues, Rock, hard, Southern and classic rock.Thanks for the show guys! I never want to think about buffers again because y’all solved it.

[@Adveniotu]

After this amazing video, I came up with the following for my simple rig: - Strat/Tele - 15ft Mogami Gold cable - EP Booster - Chase Tone Secret Preamp (Always on for color) - Catalinbread Topanga Reverb (in buffered bypass mode to allow use with reverb and non reverb amps. I'm only using the EP for lead playing, so it is off often.) - 15ft Mogami Gold cable - Fender Bassman Thoughts?! I'm just recently transitioning from Guitar > Cable > Amp and I'm escared. Thank you!

[@ThatPedalShow]

Yeah man. Loads of dynamic and variation in all that. Depends how much you can crank the Bassman. Ours comes alive around 6-7 which is insane loud for most places these days!

[@Adveniotu]

@@ThatPedalShow , thank you so much for the reply! My main fear is losing authority from my volume and tone controls on the guitar. I'm running the amp at 4 1/2 or 5 with a THD attenuator for health and neighborly reasons, heh. 6 or 7 is a heck of a lot of fun as well.

[@angrydonkey2918]

Wow, i've watched all your buffer shows over years, and many others from Josh (jhs), Mason (vertex) and everytime something is missing but this time you had touched a lot of dark areas about buffers. Thank you guys. I love boss stuff and i will use it forever, but i'm one of the guys that don't like their buffers, it does a difference but not what i'expecting

[@vincent33195]

Brilliant episode. Thank you both so much. I wondered as you both fussed with the fuzz pedal if it would change anything to place it in its own loop, such as using the Lehle Little Looper, to keep it out of the chain altogether when not in use. Although I imagine the issue still exists when putting it back in as soon as you pair it with the other pedals. Just some ramblings as I begin to digest all that I just sat and watched and rewound and digested and watched and rewound and watched again. A job well done sirs. Thank you 🙏🏼🎸🤘🏼

[@justinoneil6971]

Mick, it’s been a minute since I’ve watched an entire show. Music teacher on fall break here… You look well man! A successful journey down the mental health path I see. Perhaps something “in your circuit” was dulling your happiness. Great to see you “buffering” that out. Tops to you gents!

[@iainmaciver2971]

Dan’s comment when they were discussing whether to put a buffer before or after overdrive about wanting to use pedals the way the designer intended made me consider how frustrating it must be for pedal designers to see how guitarists actually use of their pedals 😀 All those painstaking hours to come with very clever, feature laden designs and we discard the manual and just leave everything at 12 o’clock! I’m definitely guilty of owning a few “Ferrari’” like pedals that I only use to “pop down the shops for some milk”😀

[@TheFlorent40]

I have a boss tuner and I ll definitely try at the end!! So interesting thanks a lot, opening a lot of possibilities for my small pedalboard !!! Thanks for all the efforts help and inspiration !

[@billgreen3629]

This is really interesting. Over the past couple of years I’ve been liking a treble bleed when really what I needed was a buffer. Now that I have one, I hate the treble bleed.

[@ThatPedalShow]

They can work together. As you’ve found out tho, once you understand what they do in your own rig, you know what’s working.

[@scottakam]

Thanks guys. I've recently been playing around with making boost and overdrive pedals on a breadboard. It really helps to drive home how it all works as you tweak the components in the circuit. Surprising how similar all the circuits are and how small changes can make such a difference. Fun stuff!

[@igordemoraeslenzi]

My God! I’m finishing this buffer show now and that was amazing. We always want to see a new drive pedal vs another trendy or classic drive pedal. But my God, when Dan changes the impedance on the Kingsley that blowed my mind.

[@Piplodocus]

Love this show the most when it gets proper geeky. I understand all this stuff already as I know all the electronics stuff and have experimented in the past, but the explanation of stuff like this video just highlights related reasons and connects some of the dots to make you actually use that knowledge to your advantage the best. But yeah, kinda points out the "ideal" is probably just only having a buffer that engages when all the other pedals are off, and isn't there when any are on to give the "as likely designed" pedal sounds.

[@copperaudio9664]

Inductive reactance and capacitive reactance create a frequency filter to the incomming signal. Some AB-Y and input buffers allow you to tune that filter and can make a single coil pickup sound fantastic. Twin-city calls it "load correction"and has a "drag" knob. Z tone calls it a "Sharp tp Bold" knob.

[@DebonaireDerek]

I always learn something new from you guys through the years. Keep doing what you are doing! My knowledge and tone has greatly improved 👍🏻🙏

[@jasfiona]

I agree. Absolutely brilliant show. Thanks to everyone involved. I do have another positive observation. We all like a good tone, but what is that? I'm so glad that other opinions and perceptions, tastes and preferences, plus others needs are being recognised and catered for. Oh yeah. Did you mention the type of leads, or just the length? Sorry if I missed it, but I think you talked about the cable resistance but like most products, would the calibre of production equipment, the technical skill of any operators affect build quality? The type of construction and the material grades used, even if built to similar specification, could possibly make more of an impact than size/length. Yes, I think we all agree that every element makes a difference, sure. Again, it's a wonderful thing your doing, suggesting ways to overcome obstacles or 'wrong' tone(s). For me, though, if it's in tune, it's a thing. I will try more experimentation with where my buffer goes, because like you say, humbuckers can be such a pain, especially when EVERYTHING is set as you want it for your single coils. Personally, I'd rather spend time playing because I've been in the trap of searching for answers and watching too much. However, if it was just your show, I think you've got it all covered. Thanks again guys! You do seem try fix stuff like out of phase speakers and other issues, but as per Peter Green, and ythe Kinks, (who famously slashed speaker cones to try and get a unique tone), can actually be a desirable by-product.

[@cass2771]

Wow, I’ve just watched this 81 minute video, and feel that I want to watch it again. Thank you!

[@joeurbanowski321]

Love your show..!! Usually prods me to switch to playing my Tele..after days of practicing on my acoustic…👍🏼 But I gotta tell ya… some of these things take me back to the 80’s component stereo systems… People were SO obsessed with the next thing that they were adding equipment ( just for the higher specs) that produced audio that was only audible to dogs…😳… But I still love you guys and your show..!!!✌🏼😎

[@Knightgil]

Man, I just enjoy watching you guys play guitar and talking with each other. It's so calming. Oh sure, the gear is also interesting. But I wouldn't really be watching your videos if it wasn't for you guys. That's what clicks with me.

[@filipj.9106]

Mick always great to see you enjoying the guitar!

[@brondman18]

Hello amigos!!! I didn't realize this was a year old but I'm very glad I saw this on my feed from y'all. I usually use a snark to tune my guitars but after watching your show I purchased a TC Electronics PolyTune 3 and though it's a bit of an adjustment tuning, I noticed right away that my tone was really, really better. I put the PolyTune 3 at the end of the FX chain I think you mentioned that would allow the buffer to cover the board, hope I didn't miss remember what you said. But perhaps my imagination, but I noticed the brightness of my Strat was much less abrasive and the warmth on the Strat tone that I love was there and most "present" meaning natural and without being effected depending on which pedal I use, and such. I understand you get a ton of these comments, but I do hope it allows you a bit of joy knowing you help someone understand (at least I'm hopeful that's the case) buffering just a bite more and getting wonderful results from it. Know it's a bit early, but I wanted to wish you all a wonderful Holiday Season. 🌲🎅

[@usedmothlight]

This video should be issued with every guitar players first pedal purchase. Ace!

[@davedavem]

What's your favourite always-off pedal?

[@ThatPedalShow]

Hahahahaha!

[@TheFlutecart]

obviously the tuner.

[@AB-ib8dm]

This was a joke, but I will answer it seriously. Catalinbread Adineko. Haven't turned it on in 8 months, but it is still on my board. I keep meaning to learn some swampy guitar songs, but my muse always chooses a different direction. When my inner John Fogarty finally breaks out, my board will be ready for him.

[@TheFlutecart]

@@AB-ib8dm - I love my Adineko. I use it and their Zero Point flanger often at gigs. Just need to dial it back like it's a studio effect and not a spaceship!

[@ginoames]

The TS vs Rat cable test was great. You could really hear the change on the Rat. Great episode gang. Bravo.

[@samuelxavier2473]

Proper rabbit hole territory here, chaps. Nicely done. FWIW, I use a lot of Boss pedals but never had any complaints about the tone of my rig.

[@glenby2u]

some people use the curly cable to reduce top end fizz, so I can see there are many options for each person. again, thanks guys. glad to see you both are getting back to your pre-covid selves.

[@GiovanniBottaMuteWinter]

Great show as usual guys! I own a Fulltone MDV3 that at first sounded kinda dull for me, especially with P90s (compared to single coils). Added a buffer right in front of it and it fixed the issue! I also noticed that my Keeley Neutrino works better with a buffer in front (better tracking and fuller sound). It is for sure all trial and error.

[@TheFlutecart]

I had replaced my reverb pedal on my little board with a fancier one a few years back and was quite pleased with the results until I got it on stage and had to push a 25' cable. Wow- my signal dropped when the pedal was off with the tails mode engaged. My new reverb pedal had a crappy buffer in it, the old Supernatural reverb pedal went back in after that! Killer buffers in that one for sure.

[@TheFlutecart]

And btw- I'm a tech and your description of the circuit Z science is spot on- great presentation!

[@MrSlash00r]

Really enjoyed your explanation, Dan .. plus, the whole time in the back of my head I was thinking "Drew Bypass"..

[@hitnorcal]

Crazy. I can hear the difference between buffer on/off but not between the buffers themselves. I'll differ to the boys in the room and what they are hearing. "I don't hate that." ha I love it. This show is always so much fun to watch. It's my favorite show on the entire internet. (FYI listening through Bose Quite Comfort Headphones)

[@bbbro34]

Jimi used to use a really long cord and it was the coiled cords making it even longer, and I think that is what helped to tame a single coil Strat going into a cranked Plexi and really, in many ways, aided his tone by having that bleed off. Look up any pic of Jimi playing and you will almost always see him with that long coiled cord. Add to that that most of the pedals back then that he would be using probably were not true bypass and thereby giving a certain kind of buffering there...

[@ThatPedalShow]

I think we talked a bit about that. And if we didn’t, we usually do!

[@MrWilson-WithaPbass]

43:50-45:00 Holy cow ! Mick , "That is the tone" , check please ! Absolute love that "little board of yours " . All I need , I'm done . That ends it for me ...

[@ThatPedalShow]

Thanks!

[@iainmaciver2971]

At 42:33 - surely at least the Mick side of the D&M should have all controls at 2 o’clock? 😉 Harmonius Monk on point.

[@ramirorobles9746]

You guys are so special to me, Thanks for all the knowledge

[@kilgoretrout321]

I've got a buffered tuner at the front, and some Boss pedals in the middle, and a UAFX pedal with a buffer at the end. And there's a noticeable difference between straight into amp vs thru the board. The high end is still there, but the "liveliness" of the pickups is lost. It's the aural equivalent of looking through glass: it may be clear to look through but it's not the same as nothing being there at all

[@MrWhit30]

I typical play with only 35'-40' of total cable and a max of 6 or 8 pedals so Ive found that as long as I have at least 1 buffered pedal on the board I'm good. I typical use lower wind humbuckers- PAF, Filtertrons, Bill Lawrence/Wilde low inductance blades.