The 2 Major Problems of Mid Drive eBikes that no one talks about

After using both a hub motor and mid drive ebike, I wanted to share two major problems I discovered that kept me from recommending the cyc x1 stealth to people.
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[@ParaglidingManiac]

What I did with my ebike (chinese) with a built-in mid-drive is - I went into the settings menu and set the smoothest enabling PAS setting. So that when I start pedaling, the motor would increase it's torque gradually. That way there's no hitting the freewheel internally by the motor. My legs initiate a smooth hit on the freewheel as it's suppose to be naturally, and by that time the motor catches up with me and starts doing it's job. It's a 1/2 second action, but it's real practical for me as a rider and healthy for the bike's freewheel.

[@kalef1234]

yeah i think it's a non issue

[@DoItYourselfDad]

The bad clunk you’re experiencing is the result of using a low end cassette. Higher end ones will have nearly no play in them. When your riding a mid using pedal assist (not throttle) you should already be engaging the pawls before the torq of the motor kicks in, I could definitely see the issue if one was using just the throttle. I have not experienced the issues you are talking about with having to pedal at extreme cadences to keep up with my mid drives, but I haven’t ridden the diy mid drives. Mid drives I think are better suited for pedal assist, not throttle driven. They’re also better balanced for mountain bikers and take advantage of the gearing in the drivetrain to supply more low end torque when needed. Hub motors are extremely smooth in their power delivery. Each have their pluses and minuses.

[@geemy9675]

hub motor with torque sensor should be more widespread IMO, I've never really like cadence sensor evokes, the response is always too slow and you can't control how progressive and how strong the more kicks in. I don't like ghost pedalling, if you don't want to push on the pedals, you might as well use the throttle.

[@quaddawg]

well said. I agree.

[@ghz24]

@@geemy9675 Spoken like a true cyclist who doesn't think any bike should move without pedaling being done. You don't like ghost pedaling and cadence sensors well get your bike to use torque sensors and don't ghost pedal and leave the rest of us to legally ride how we want. BTW ghost pedalling IS exercise to some people.

[@geemy9675]

@@ghz24 I have nothing against not pedalling and using throttle on an ebike...I am also a former motorcyclist and I also have nothing against however is enjoying any form of biking or motorcycling and I wish much more was done to make it safer. It's just a personal preference, that made almost every experience I had on hub motors/cadence sensors not so great. what I don't like about cadence sensors is that you have zero way to modulate the power, and the usually very slow on/off response. throttle can mitigate the problem by giving some control, and of course the "problem" of cadence sensors is not so bad when you have enough pedal assist levels, and you are cruising at constant speed on a flat trail with no intersections, and you can find a pedal assist level which is in the sweet spot that has good balance of speed/assist for you, or if you have a weak 250W 25kmh ebike that you will probably use at "full power" most of the time. It just makes any 500/750W cadence sensor ebike feel very unrefined. on the other hand most mid drives are too expensive and also have disadvantages regarding shifting under load and drivetrain wear. I don't think it would hurt to see more hub motors coupled with torque sensors, at least as an option. I think torque sensors is also better for safety when I see my daughter or my wife using a 65lbs with 500/750W, with a two second delay between you starting or stopping pedalling and the motor response, it makes low speed maneuvers very jerky especially if you are in a speed with tall gearing. unfortunately the same delay applies on the throttle. torque sensor fee more natural because you can modulate the power the same way you do on a regular bike, just as if you were 2x/3x as powerfull

[@ghz24]

@@geemy9675 I would likely like a torque sensor if it was selectable not one or the other. They sound more controllable at low speeds more intuitive. Cadence senors can kick in unexpectedly and definitely have a learning curve. Downshifting while slowing to a stop can be tricky till you get used to it. I end up ghost pedaling a lot because I don't want to upshift just to downshift for the next stop signal. I have one of the ones that wont let the throttle engage until it's moving already so being in a lower gear when stopping is crucial if you want to accelerate at a reasonable rate when starting again. When I can go a ways without stopping I go to high gear and help it get up to top speed 28 mph. The throttle is limited to 20 but ghost pedaling will getsbout 25 with no pushing just fast pedaling (which can be harder than pedaling with at least a little resistance). It seems like there are lots of people that would like to mandate assisting with pedals. I get a lot more exercise on my electric bike than I would on a non-electric one because I couldn't ride a normal bike in the terrain near me. I mistook your post as wanting to take away options for others.

[@juanmercedes1956]

Thank you for your hypothesis and your description is second to none. Keep up the great work. You always bring valuable information to the table.

[@huck4321]

I have never had any cassette/hub problems with my Bosch mid drive after 5 years of daily riding. I like the mid drive flexibility to run 2 different sets of wheels with different gearing on each. I run 26x4" for off road, sand, snow and 27.5x3" for commuting. It's very easy to swap wheels and fix flats on a mid drive.

[@Bamboothought]

The Bosch is lower powered..

[@mackenziebullied4900]

@@Bamboothought its still 750 and similar torque to fix i beliwbe

[@lIlIlIlIlIlIlIlIlI]

@@mackenziebullied4900 75 nm vs 160nm, you're no where close with those weak bosch motors

[@mackenziebullied4900]

@@lIlIlIlIlIlIlIlIlI fair enough

[@gary7vn]

@@lIlIlIlIlIlIlIlIlI Exactly, my bafang puts out 120 Newton Meters

[@FlyingScot911]

First thing I did on my DIY build, with the same CyC X1 Stealth mid-drive motor, was to upgrade my drivetrain to a Box Components Box 2 P9 X-Wide Single Shift E-Bike Groupset. Absolutely love the combination. Feels like it will climb a wall. Eats the mountains here in BC for breakfast. Throw in a 21Ah/52V battery from Electrifybike and I am good to go for long rides. Best thing about the rear cassette from Box is the ability to purchase the first 4 gears for $20. They are the ones to wear out the fastest since I am using those the most by far. You can switch 1 out or any combination up to 4 gears. I have over 3,500 km on it with the only problem being 4 broken spokes so far. Zero flats because I upgraded my tires to Continental Ride Tour Replacement - extra puncture protection, E-Bike rated tires. I just got the portable/folding 200watt solar panel from Electrifybike. It puts out up to 4 amps, depending on sunshine, and will allow me to go further, much further into the mountains. It comes with a very compact solar charge controller. I also got a spare battery mount and a very lightweight 500 watt inverter from the guys in Utah so I can take the battery off the bike and connect it to the inverter to charge my drone, phone, or laptop and do my video editing in the middle of nowhere. All fits neatly in one of my panniers with room to spare. Love the freedom. Money I have saved in gas alone has almost paid for the bike build. By the way I purchased a used 2012 Brodie Bandit hard tail gravel bike in excellent condition on Facebook Marketplace for only $220 US. That was what gave me the extra money to go with the Stealth and the larger battery.

[@sambananas4513]

Oh, oh oh I am dreaming and you are me that wrote your post, no wait a minute no I am not. My dream is your set up, Nice! I want to try box but the $$$$ without any feedback but now I feel ok to move forward from your experience and the 4 gears are a nice thing,sick of buying clusters for the one or two bottom gears. The solar panels in the sand where I am at are perfect combination to get to the beach spend the day charge up and ride home. Dear God bring me the cash for such luxuries.

[@neilcopeland4411]

Box are bomb proof, but saying this if you use the right teeth meching for the ebike chain for the right cassette and front meching on the front ring and use the middrive system as it suppose to be used by going up and down the gears us using a gear cut off sensor then you have no need for box. Componants but box are very very good, but lije I say, if you set the drive train up properly no need to get the box as because if you don't set up the drive train and chain line up properly even the box componants will fail

[@RyanCornel12631]

My dad bought me a dirt bike converted to pedals and now I’m trying to convert it back to a motor, electric of course. This video gave me relief, now knowing it’s a good thing my back wheel gear is bolted on. Also love the videos :)

[@SugmaDLigmaNutz]

I wouldn't recommend using freewheels with mid drive conversions. Your problem isn't from a too powerful motor, it's from using too low quality of a rear hub. You should be using a proper cassette hub instead of a freewheel hub. Freewheel hubs were only designed for bio power. Major differences in quality between the two components. This is coming from a bike mechanic.

[@makncheese6836]

I don’t even understand why freewheels still exist for mainstream bikes, like in the modern mtb and road part of cycling you very rarely see a freewheel hub and not a cassette.

[@wooburnaviation]

@@makncheese6836 they are cheap. I only use branded cassettes.

[@msbuttercup2073]

Hi, what type of e conversion kit would I need for a 20in fat tire trike with pedal assist? I live in an area with a lot of hills and it's impossible to pedal up.Thanks

[@SugmaDLigmaNutz]

@@msbuttercup2073 unless you are buying a trike specific conversion kit, then I would just recommend a simple hub drive motor in the front for simplicity reasons. However if you are loading the rack(s) with heavy items frequently, you might need more power than a hub motor can provide.

[@msbuttercup2073]

@@SugmaDLigmaNutz Ok, thank you!😉

[@BWGPEI]

At 69 I'm still peddling the bike myself, and the 1.1HP peak of me is long gone in the past. Just got a frame today to try adding electric assist to, so your posting is both timely and very much appreciated. Be safe our there!

[@frosty129]

Now you’re 1 catpower

[@BWGPEI]

@@frosty129 Good one! Although the estimate might be a trifle low with two Siamese cats in the house, grin.

[@davidweather3267]

Very interesting video, as I'm about to build a Bafang mid drive bike. Sorry I haven't read all the comments. the play in the hub you talk about is the time it takes the pawl/tooth inside the hub to go from 1 point of engagement to the other. Typically even on expensive hubs there are only 36 points of engagement through a complete revolution of the wheel/360 degrees, meaning there is 10 degrees of free play before the hub bites. I don't know about your particular mid drives but the Bafang's motor on pedal assist mode requires the rider to pedal half a turn before the motor engages. Meaning the torque from your legs takes up that free play in the hub before the motor kicks in, saving wear on the freehub. However in throttle only mode all the motor's torque is transferred straight to the hub and once the free play is taken up you'll likely hear a clunk as the pawl engages, particularly from a stand still but also while you're moving. If you can reprogram the motor to reduce the initial current this will help. Also bike hubs weren't designed for 1000 watt motors so if this free play and early wear on the hub is a problem then factor into your build a 100+ points of engagement hub like the Halo Superdrive with 120 points of engagement for less than $200.

[@garyjohnson4575]

....damn, you know your sh!t!! Thanks!

[@bronnblackwater6345]

I live in the Appalachians, I go up large mountains all the time. A mid Drive motor is absolutely essential if you're going to be going up steep hills. A 750w rear Hub drive compared to my bafang bbs02 750 watt mid Drive.. is no comparison at all! The only way the Hub Drive motor makes sense is if you don't have any major Hills to climb. Because unlike the mid drive, you can't re-gear the motor using the drivetrain. There's one Hill in particular here that has a 34% grade and my mid Drive goes right up at 14mph in elec gear 9 mech gear 2. I can do 39 mph on the flat in elec gear 9 and mech gear 8. I have it set up that the motor barely assist me and just makes it a lil easier to pedal in elec 1 and 2. You can program the mid drive to your liking. Each gear is individually programmable. You won't be able to do that wide a variety of riding with a single geared hub motor. Well, you Could but you'd have to run say a 2000w or 3000w motor and say, double the battery size to compensate. Even then, it wouldn't be as good. The largest problem with mid-drives is people that don't know what they're doing try to mount them to a low quality bicycle. It can wear out the driveline components on a cheap bike. If you need to ASK someone if the bike that you have is "too cheap" for a mid drive motorization.. then you don't know enough about bikes to build a mid Drive to begin with!

[@jaybjornbjornintheusa3039]

I put my mid drive on a 1990’s free trek bike. Over 3000 miles with no issues , except flat tires. Under $750 build with the bafang 750. Great power and acceleration

[@neilcopeland4411]

I totally agree with you. Middrive are far superior than hub or hub geared ebikes they had so much more torque. But people have don't ride middrive ebikes correctly, they just ram it in top gear top PA and thrash it everywhere and when after 50p miles they start hearing bad sounds coming from the middrive they then come on social media to slag off middrive, because they ignorant. Middrive ebikes are totally different when it comes to riding them from a hub drives, gears must be used in low when starting from stand still or low gear and high PA on climbing hills. Basically mids have to be ridden lije driving a car through its gears, you cannot start a car from stand still in 3rd or 4th, well it's same with middrive, yes it will start but putting tremdouse load on the middrive and keep doing this and it won't last longbut as long as middrive are set up properly with good chain lines and the proper ebike chain that will Mech properly with the correct teeth on both rear cassette and front ring and using the gears as they should be ridden then all this thing about the guy talking about the gap between the bite of the pedaling through the freehub or in America they say freewheel will not matter what so ever. I just think this video is a middrive bashing video looking for problems I stead of using common sense to show there no problems in using a middrive. Maintainance also is a must do regularly with middrive, either regressing between 500 or 1000 miles which let's be honest is a 30 to 45 minute job if that. Middrive are just far superior to hub drive in every way if you do the right thing with them by setting it up properly and using middrive cut out gear switch or rake cut outs can achieve the same thing and not cross using drive train chain rings and cassette and ebike chains. With ebikes best to keep too either shram drive train through out or shimano through out then finding the correct ebike chain becomes alot more easier to find the correct meching when changing gears, and getting chain line correct and using whole of the cassette at the back when stop starting on a fast run building up or going up to a high gear through the gears. Basically riding a middrive is totally different when using a hub drive, there alot more too using a middrive but you do get alot more out of a middrive if used correctly and set up correctly. Hub or geared hubs are for lazy riders

[@bronnblackwater6345]

@@neilcopeland4411 most intelligent reply I've ever received

[@Billy-burner]

I have a 1500 watt rear hub kit that loses traction instantly under acceleration on bitumen, and will power wheelie on demand while going 40-60kph. If that motor was powering a typical mid drive chain it would snap instantly. People saying mid drives have more torque is just plain BS. Who really wants to go slowly up a hill, and need to back off the acceleration just to change gearing, losing momentum just to avoid snapping and twisting your derailleur (lol mid drives) my rear hub motor power slides off road and throws roost Like a MX bike

[@neilcopeland4411]

@@Billy-burner they not suppose to be used doing wheelies and as for the backing off, the gear or break sensor is momentarily for split second engaged, just like a clutch does on a motorbike or car, I think you clutching at straws to explain your side off the argument, plus the torque argument, what you talking about, the figures don't lie when it comes to the actual torque.The middrive is places in the most accurate place on the bike to gain the torque, just like a motorbike with the engine in the middle with the chain being the method to release the power of the engine too the rear. Have you seen many motorbikes with rear hub engined propulsion?, I not. Plus I think these huge hub motors look so unsightly and are easily seen by the you know who who like to get you stopped and the bike crushed where as a middrive is a little more discreet to the eye.

[@MarksRandomVideos]

Just getting into ebikes with first build on 48v 1500w hub drive and lipos. 40mph seems fast enough! Enjoyed this! Subbed!

[@francretief1]

I have a Maxon hub motor from Switzerland for many years now with zero problems and zero maintenance. Friends with mid-drive motors, even expensive ebikes like Specialized, seem to have a lot more problems. Another benefit of a hub motor is a lot less wear on the drive train. With a hub motor only your power is transmitted to the rear wheel, while with a mid-drive motor, your power in addition to motor power is transmitted via the drive train.

[@yapdog]

I came for the motor info, stayed for the ride in NJ. I hadn't been back east in over 2 decades. I really miss home. Thanx for the memories 😎

[@9jmorrison]

Thanks for the information and the ride!

[@scottstone1444]

Very well explained, great job!

[@user-uc8sr7ly6b]

Two very good points made, I'm the wiser for your channel, so thanks.

[@mani-00]

one of your finest video...very much liked that you went into details and although i have a bbs02 and think mid drive is the way to go...the points you discussed specially the stability of the motors and the pedal/motor ratio are very relevant.

[@lukewalker1051]

Not really. Its relevant if you get the gearing wrong on a mid drive aka too short of gearing....and, you don't have your power assist levels set up properly. A BBSHD and BBS02 motor is programmable with a laptop and USB cable designed to interface the motor controller to the computer.

[@stucox2473]

Recently upgraded my Cannondale hybrid road bike with a Bafang BBS02, which has a cadence sensor. Although it is not as smooth as a torque sensor bike I tried, I am still very happy with it. I left throttle off as I wanted to pedal when moving, and the motor addition is a real game changer for my aging knees when facing hills and headwinds - I live near the Rockies. And I haven't really found that I need to pedal overly fast to cruise with the motor running.

[@alanread8468]

I've had my bafang bbso2b about 2 years now, I did the conversion myself, if I say it myself " it's very neat (hidden wires) it's a brilliant piece of kit, I've done miles on it, I love it 👍😁

[@BH4x0r]

the BBS02 and BBSHD don't have a torque sensor at all so it'll just keep putting the max power from the pas setting

[@timcoleman3421]

Great information. This really helped.

[@kikupub71]

Amazing videos thanks for the info!

[@drgeoffangel5422]

Nice video, over here in the UK, I have fitted a front wheel electric motor hub drive , limited by UK law to only 250Watts power! I fitted it to my Marin full mountain bike with a Shimano 11 speed internal rear hub , instead of derailleur type sprockets! Although the front wheel hub motor is only 250 Watts, I have the benefit of a two wheel drive bicycle. Also I change can change gears to " help the motor out" on steep hills! An additional advantage of a front wheel hub motor drive is, that if my chain comes off, or breaks, I can still drive home using the front wheel on its 's own! A further advantage of this system, is that when off road, or in very muddy roads, I have twice as much traction with both wheels being powered! But being able to independently change gears to what the motor is doing, is very useful, and I can match the required effort of my legs, to the motor requirement to get up the steep hills in my area! Remember, at the end of a day, its still only a bicycle, and I ride it to get my daily cardio, so having a more powerful motor defeats the object! If I want to go fast or not pedal at all, I have my BMW R Nine T Scrambler motor bike, with 1200cc and 115 HP! if you get the point! Nice video ! take care on the roads over there!

[@Yeet42069]

The gibberish you just wrote would be a lot more sufferable if you didn't use an exclamation mark on every sentence.

[@JB-qw7to]

I would think solving the gear ratio problem with a larger front chainring could also help with the excessive torque on the freewheel, by increasing the leverage at the pedals. Freewheel are cheap and are easily messed up by a powerful rider on a regular bike so I definitely think it would resolve it for sure. I think mid-drive with an actual modern mountain bike rear hub could solve that as many of them have much better engagement. And are definitely a lot stronger then any freewheel

[@lee-tx5mw]

exactly what i was going to say try a chainring around 56 tooth this would put you in a larger sprocket in the back giving less chance of slip too if you think a 56 sounds too large i was riding mtbs with 56 tooth chainring back in the 90s and it was the better way .these pathetically geared bikes are embarrassing tbh .we used the call the front small chainrinring granny gears and never used them

[@garyjohnson4575]

Think about how your legs would feel if you started with thr largest ring at the pedals. Every hill you'd be struggling.

[@vickiburrows6564]

I found that Tong sheng Tsdz2 mid drive 750watt is great, installed on a duel suspension MTB done 3000 ks I replaced the blue gear(32 aus dollars) at 2000ks to find little wear. Also the drive chain doesn't seem to stretch as much as you'd expect. The pedal assist is smooth no spinning. I had the display in recent times cut out. I suspect it maybe condensation. (East coast Australia has had continuous rain for months!)But if I reboot it's all good. I also found that I can pedal just fine with unit off. I mainly ride in "Tour" mode which is 2nd egear. On hills if tired I put up to "Speed" 3rd egear flys up the hill super smooth, and I still have Turbo 4th egear. I have 52volt 13amhr triangle battery that's made to fit my medium size frame. All the weight is where you want it! Centre of gravity is between your legs.The first time I rode on MTB Trails it felt natural just faster and easier. Range in 2nd gear 140ks! The motor and battery cost 1100 au dollars. Bought from Alibaba in 2018.

[@MegaRetroRocket]

I just installed the same kit on my road bike, but with a smaller "shark" battery. I didn't want too much assist, just enough to maintain my avg speed while commuting over a big hill. The "Tour" setting is just right for me, but installed a throttle in case things get hairy. Altogether I spent just under $700 USD through eBay, plus took the opportunity to put in new cables and a new chain. Only problem I had has been documented multiple times, is that if you have your rear cables running under the bottom bracket, you'll have to modify the plastic guide or somehow reroute your cables so there's enough room for the motor to slide on. There's only a couple mm of clearance.

[@BH4x0r]

i installed my tsdz2 500W in February this year, i've already got 2000km on it, while i haven't used it as much recently cuz of heat and rain, i run mine in turbo pmuch all the time cuz i cant bother riding uphill under 20km/h, and if the motor can't do it i stomp on the pedals upright, cuz i hate slow speeds ebike rules are so dumb, people with a 25km/h moped/scooter can ride strong gradients at 25km/h cuz 50cc engines can have abt 4kW if they limit ebikes to such a low value it's logical people pick the moped as they're a fuckton cheaper than storebought decent ebikes, and thank god no manufacturer actually limits their motor to 250W, that would suck dick uphill, the Power Line CX "250W" motors actually peak at over 650W so the rules are a joke, some shitty way to keep people buying overpriced crap proprietary shit from manufacturers.. on the other hand a 3kW ebike would be dangerous if the PAS isn't torque sensing, so i feel there should be a class 25km/h up to 3kw, no certificate of conformity and other bullshit, but mandatory torque sensing or something, so shit wont throw an uncontrollable wheelie instantly lol

[@tinkeralexander5639]

I built a cargo trike that uses a hub motor to drive the rear axle through a chain . I played with the side gears and found running a 1.25 reduction was the best bang for the buck battery wise. It is extra weight, but the motor is happier hauling loads at a higher rpm, using slightly less watts given the same speed. If a middrive motor was turned around with a left side hub, and gear output, you could bolt a larger gear on the rear wheel at the disk brake mount and you might get better range letting the motor run at its most efficient speed. Yes, electric motors do make torque from zero rpms, but most have a more efficient speed that they should be turning at. If you compare high end drives to the cheapos most of us run, there is a big difference in power used at lower speeds. Most cheap motors are more efficient at much higher speed than they are used for.

[@stingingmetal9648]

Could you put a second hub on the other wheel and get more power and speed?

[@geekane9462]

You bring up some very good points. The pawls are what causes the gaps or delays in pedaling. The higher end brands hubs will have more pawls and hence less gaps and chance for chain breakage and that snap on shifting. I think a Rolhoff hub could work well with a mid drive motor. No shifting, no worrying about chainline. Just need to make sure chain tension is properly maintained. The chain set up is like a single-speed bike. Anyone out there use a Rolhoff hub on a mid drive motor?

[@neilcopeland4411]

If using bafang midrive all you have to do is put a gear changing sensor on it around $30 and problems of chain breaking goes as cuts out the motor momentarily when changing gear, can also use the brake sensors to stop the motor as changing gear. But if you get chain lines correct and set up a middrive correct by using the correct ebike chain with the correct teeth meching on the front ring and rear cassette then middrive are perfect and always using the gearing on the back changing from low too high from stand still and stop putting in high gear and high pedal assist when starting from stand still as this puts astronomical strain on thd motor. Middrive are meant to be ridden like driving a car or motorcycle, using the gears. Riding s hub driven bike from riding a middrive ebike are miles apart different but people are either ignorant too this. But ridden and set up properly middrive are so so far suowrior than hub or hub geared ebikes

[@petejones1957]

Thanks for the video, You guys in the States are so lucky with the power levels allowed, here in "Little Britain" we're limited to 15.5 mph , no throttle ( on bikes made after 2015) and max power of 250W. I've just changed from a Bafang 250W to a Shimano Steps, which feels a lot more natural, but there's definitely a sweet spot between the cadence and the speed. Good point about the rear freewheel weakness, though with 250W probably no bother here. Perhaps the answer is the new"Pinion" mid drive with built in 12 speed gearbox and belt drive, looks awesome

[@andrewcaldrewood2387]

Higher end wheel with more pawls will fix the clunky issue as well as smooth out the power delivery. My 2 cents. 👍

[@BlackMamba-lt8oe]

what is pawl

[@mwj5368]

@@BlackMamba-lt8oe They are the tiny levers that are spring activated like they are in socket wrenches. The pawls are what makes the clicking sound. They grab the grooved inner barrel of the freewheel as you peddle forward and create the increased clicking sound if you peddle backwards, or are coasting and not peddling. If you buy the more expensive freewheel there are more pawls and grooves in the inner barrel for them to grab onto with less play and are more of an efficient power transfer because they grab much sooner as soon as you first peddle forward. That's just my amateur view.

[@BlackMamba-lt8oe]

@@mwj5368 why do u have to replace them, just ride it as a fixie,

[@rewind9536]

Hope pro 4 hubs is surprisingly clunky. But cheap and very repairable.

[@russellzauner]

@@BlackMamba-lt8oe it would literally break your legs lol

[@johnmorton7577]

Thanks for the great info

[@wool1701]

I blew the CYC Stealth clutch at the chainring on the first day I had it. The pawl based clutch wasn't up to the force being applied by the motor, and turned into metal mince. I then replaced it with the Freewheel 2.0, which is a sprag clutch - and proceeded to invert the sprags a month later (I apply quite a lot of force to my pedals). Once the clutch problems are refined, I think it'll be a winner, but at the moment I have concerns, which don't exist on a hub-based bike. (I also own a bike with a Bafang G020.500.D front motor.)

[@russellzauner]

Thank you for this, I will also talk to them about the Freewheel 2.0 springs because that was my first question: which version was the person in the video using? When I discuss specs with the Cyc people (and they do email back promptly) I am always aware of the differences between gas/electric power plants and the drivetrain considerations necessary - so I already had the FW2 on my current quote. If you're going to buy up to the Pro from Stealth then spend the extra few bucks for the improved components suggested for it.

[@loganthemins3866]

Thanks for the vid!

[@ritcheymt]

I'm a total noob to e-bikes (research stage, not even shopping yet) and this video is very valuable for me because other videos said mid-drive e-bikes are better because they couple the operator's effort and pedaling rpm with the motor's effort and rpm, so it's supposed to feel like the motor works hard when you do. NPL Ventures, your experience with this mid-drive motor actually teaches me the opposite, which is valuable. Your experience in having to pedal furiously at low felt torque to "keep up" with the motor's pedal assist at high settings actually mirrors the experience I had on a rented hub-drive e-bike yesterday. I didn't like that, at high speeds with pedal assist, I had to pedal furiously with virtually no felt resistance/torque. The bike I rode yesterday had, I believe, only 4 settings for pedal assist, so maybe this experience improves on both hub-drive and mid-drive bikes that have more pedal assist settings or virtual "gears." Can anyone comment on that?

[@baitball4665]

Get a bbshd mid drive. this guy is a clown. You can build a good bike with the right gearing and program the motor to work the way you want it to. None of that is possible with a hub motor. and forget big hills or hauling anything with a hub motor. It will kill your battery and youll still be doing most the work

[@baitball4665]

bbshd have the option for 9 PAS settings

[@josephtucciarone6878]

Good points. Thank you.

[@jamesnewsom5899]

I ride a rear hub motor magic cycle cruiser. For long distances and flats on both pavement and dirt roads I love it. I can pretty much set the gearshift and the power assist and forget about it. Four more hilly terrainAnd light trail riding I have to do a lot of gear shifting and changing of the power assist. I can only guess that a mid drive would be more straightforward for mixed trail riding conditions

[@hfisk1038]

I have ridden a few thousand kilometers on my 750 watt Tongshen Tsdz2 mid drive. The issues you mention I would not have thought of. The only issue I have with the mid drive is breaking a chain - because you have no way to pedal the bike like with a hub motor. The Tsdz2 is a very smooth motor and has four levels of PAS. It is important to shift to lower gears on startup and to choose the best PAS option. I have an 800 watt battery and there is no hill that presents a problem. The MTB drive train is not designed for propulsion that is the equivalent of the strength of three persons. If the power is abused the drive train will wear out prematurely. If I use the second level of PAS I can get 60 miles out of the battery for about 10 cents of electricity. It was a mistake to have such a heavy 48 volt battery but I never run out of power. I own both the Tsdz2 mid drive and two 300 watt hub drive ebikes and find both drive systems have merit. The less powerful hub motors do not tax the sprockets and chain like the mid drive. There is a great risk of addiction to 750 or 1000 watts and the speed that comes with that energy.

[@BH4x0r]

i'm running my Tsdz2 500W on a 625Wh 48V battery, i have no issue with battery weight myself, neither have i ever have anything break yet, 2000km on my motor and chain, everything still stock i very often hammer hard on it, i weigh way more than i care to admit and stomp on my pedals, 42T with 7S DNP 11T freewheel, my top speed with it is about 40km/h and on strong uphill i stomp on the pedals to go atleast 25km/h without a retarded cadence i run a KMC E8 chain though, 7-8 speed and optimized for ebikes so it doesn't hurt to have quite a sick amount of torque to remove my old freewheel (didn't go fast enough to my liking with a 14T one) i actually had to buy a 30cm wrench and still stomp on the wrench with my feet, i couldn't get it off with a 15cm one, not even with weight, so i'm sure it had quite a ton of torque on it, lol.

[@1Tane55]

2 years and no problems BBS02 I had to beef up the mounting so it didn't rotate. highly recommend mid drive, As with most things the installation is everything.

[@markkus1134]

I built a BBSHD with Co-well 52 volt 17ah on my 29” and love it as long as you don’t power shift when peddling no hub drive will ever have the torque you can add a instant freewheel not cheap but if you don’t shift under power you won’t have a problem

[@iain.wlaird2275]

BBS02 paired with a Rohloff speed hub, 10.000 miles without any issues. Change gear while at a standstill which is very useful.

[@whatsit2ya247]

$1200 plus?!! WTF🤯

[@kalef1234]

that sounds amazing

[@Visiorary]

I have that problem with my hub drive since I upgraded the freewheel to reduce ghost pedaling. Smallest sprockets are 11t & 13t. 4.36:1 in high gear with a direct drive hub. It's a low grade freewheel. I wish I could find better brands that meet my needs. Also, motorcycles usually have a rubber damper between the sprocket mount and the wheel. 3 piece and 4 piece are what I've seen.

[@jacobsoby3910]

My Trek with the Bosch didn't have either of the issues described. I think it has a clutch in the motor, and it's power assist didn't require me to peddle fast.

[@crystalclearwindowcleaning3458]

Very helpful. Two more reasons I won't go with a mid drive conversion.

[@jeryhenuhili9263]

2:06 That ascending electric sound . . . always awesome.

[@lukefarmer5391]

I have the Sondors Rockstar, 750w 48 watt 30ah I believe. It is a mid drive and it can be an animal or a mouse. Not sure how your motor can be set up but mine has torque sense that workers really well. It has the Bafang m620 ultra. It’s a heavy bike but you can go up insane hills with as little effort or as much by setting the power assist level. It does have crap pawls in the hub so I do expect those to be one of the first issues to repair as others have this problem.

[@ilogicg]

🤣 I know one day I will see you on a Surron hitting trails and jumps not peddling at all, keep on grinding homie

[@jenniferlynnbarkley1818]

I tried a lot of hub drives before I decided to buy the mid drive. I felt the exact way you did about how I couldn’t pedal after a certain point but only with hub drive. After owning a mid drive for awhile now, my conclusions are that if I ride it like I value my chain and cassette (which I do) then I have to deal with the lack of resistance at times when I want to pedal assist as a trade off and that I’d be dealing with that with hub drives too because I did. I think the answer is that there hasn’t been an e bike produced yet that gets it quite right- I can’t wait for the day it does happen though.

[@surfyogi]

Hub drives can be a drag; the motor makes the back end heavy; if you have a hard tail; then the bike hurts if you go over a bump unexpectedly! ouch; get a shocked seat post at least! The newer mid-drive motors from Bafang have a motor cut-out switch for 2022-23 models that will cut out motor power during shifts (amazing) and it works great. I have a Accomile Cola Bear with a 750w motor and it has the cut-out; there are never any issues with power on the chain, and the chain does not fall off due to power on during shifting. This motor is inexpensive compared to all the other motors out there, and a better design too; better than Bosch now! Forget belts, and forget the issues usually associated with Mid-drives. My Cola Bear climbs hills like a Bear; very fast.

[@WebbyStudio]

i live in phx az where everywhere is a flat and a grid. i ride to commute for work and errands and my read hub ebike it great. glad i don't need to deal with all the intricacies and apparent skill requirements of using mid drives.

[@eBikeaholic]

Some great points here, thanks for sharing the ride! I'd completely agree that derailleurs have no place on a mid drive, but I think these issues are mostly in the drivetrain, not so much the motor choice. I'm running the Bafang Ultra mid drive, 52v 1500w with a Nexus 3 IGH. The 3 speed hubs are usually strongest in the planetary gear. Kindernay and Rohloff are also very strong pairs for mid motors, especially with a belt drive. The eBike world definitely needs stonger drivetrain tech though, and it's coming soon thanks to the popularity of cargo eBikes in Europe. For the pedaling cadence I use a higher gain ratio (56T chainring / 16T cog) with the Nexus 3 to keep my legs in the game at cruising speed around 35mph. The 3 speed hubs are not perfect but very strong when in the planetary gear (usually 2nd gear).

[@hookem7060]

Ummh... Gears can complement a Mid-drive because you have to pedal with a Mid-drive! (i.e., pedals are always moving!)... Right?

[@eBikeaholic]

@@hookem7060 you're thinking of a fixed-gear bike... the rear cog is bolted to the rear hub, so the pedals will spin as the wheel spins. Mid drive motors can't be fixed-gear. Even if you use a fixed-gear rear hub with a mid drive motor, the motors usually have a freewheel which allows the bottom bracket to spin without requiring the cranks / pedals to spin.

[@hookem7060]

@@eBikeaholic OK got it!... There's a freewheel clutch!.. Thanks!

[@_Demoralized_]

I build myself an 48V Bafang BBS01 mid drive and it took some time to configure the controller to react to my drive style. Where I live we can rent Ebikes with a similar poweroutput, they usually have a front hub motor and the responsiveness is crazy good. I find it hard to recreate the same configuration within the legal limits with the mid drive motor.

[@rdkuless]

That play you talked about is from lugging down the motor.. That can be eliminated by putting on a smaller chainring, that will cause the mid-drive spin faster, which also keeps the motor cooler and gives more torque. If you have your gears too high and not enough power (level) being delivered that sucks of your power and lowers your range. Try a smaller sprocket, i use a 36 N/W chainring.. And listen to the motor to keep it spinning fast, it seems counter intuitive but that will increase your range.. I have ridden over 15k miles in 4 years.. It took a lot of trial and error to figure out the sweet spot for Gear to Power ratio to increase range. It's all math.

[@kosztaz87]

The issue regarding too high cadence for optimal power output is something I don't really understand. I have a BBS02 and one of my issues with it is that if I pedal with a really high rpm (going up on steep hills) it simply can't keep up with my pedaling speed. I find the BBSHD much better in this regard, that has a higher max rpm. I don't really understand why would someone want to pedal that much slower, to effectively compromise motor efficiency. Those low kind of pedaling cadences are surely not good for your knees, or any of the drivetrain components.

[@andrewstambaugh8030]

Street motorcycles actually have a cush drive: the sprocket is direct mounted to the cush drive, which is mounted to the hub but with large tight packed rubber dampers. As the age and get worn, they can get slopping, which is very noticeable (similar to what you are experiencing). And the solution is to pull them apart and pack plastic spacers in so that it is once again riding on tight packed large surface area of rubber. Dirtbikes usually lack the cush drive, which is a big part of why they are much harsher on the road (and easier to break traction).

[@arobertson87]

I have a lower power front direct drive with hardcore torque arms and love it. Drive train issues out of the question. Perfect conversion for me. Chain can break and fall off and I can still get home.

[@ghz24]

Why did you pick direct drive over geared hubs?

[@tomfuller4205]

I carry a spare chain

[@sammiller6631]

@@ghz24 direct drives have the most durability, lowest maintenance, silent and easiest to setup regenerative braking.

[@sammiller6631]

@@tomfuller4205 Why bother with the extra hassle?

[@tomfuller4205]

@@sammiller6631 Chains break so I carry a quick connect KMC.

[@demonocusmetalocus3558]

I have a hub drive on my folding ebike and i am very happy with it

[@davidanderson6222]

Tired of trying to find 13 t freewheel so I got a 52 t chain ring for my bafang mid drive. I’ve found my sweet spot. And I’m not peddling like crazy to keep up. Only thing is, my range is reduced slightly. 👍🏽

[@thebeaglebeat3615]

I have a 52 tooth blingring on the chainring, it helps keep the selected gear in the higher tooth count gear on the cassette, meaning the torque is distributed to more teeth, hopefully enabling longer service life & no chain jumping so far.

[@freddycrabbs1033]

With the cyc Pro you choose your gearing based on your personal cadence and can tune how much torque and wattage the motor gives at different levels of input. Also as I've already seen mentioned if you using a quality rear hub (witch is cyc Pro's target market) not only are the likely to last way longer than a freewheel there are also instant engagement free hubs too

[@joedirt4177]

I have over 10'000miles on my bbshd I absolutely beat the crap out it and has given me no problems . I still have the original rear cassette only had to replace the chain once.you just have to get used to the way they operate by far better than a hub motor on hills and performance.!

[@lukewalker1051]

Me too. BBSHD...just received another build kit yesterday, can't be beat performance for money and very reliable.

[@shapan0ipoly]

Any re-grease?

[@joedirt4177]

@@shapan0ipoly once a year with mobile 21.super easy to do just a couple minutes.

[@lukewalker1051]

@@shapan0ipoly Truthfully its optional at even 5K miles. The grease that is in the motor new, both primary and secondary which btw is a different kind of grease for each, doesn't really disappear. But...the secondary as Joe said is easy. Remove the right crank and chainring and outer casing and you have access. Seal is generally reusable. Mobil 28 is preferred.

[@dennisyoung4631]

Will be dosing the current build - BBS-HD - with Mobil-28 grease prior to putting it in the frame. Did that with the earlier build.

[@icypirate11]

I clicked on this video because of the Mongoose Ledge X1. I turned mine into a emtb using the TSDZ2 mid drive motor. I had a lot of fun with the build. Maybe if I come across a bridge I'll take some updated photos and upload to _r/ebikes._

[@terrestrialtrajectory]

I actually don't have the issue of not being able to peddle with the bike I have a full suspension mid drive with the bafang 620. I was at a skills park today practicing drops. There are two ways back up, either go the long way that takes about 5 minutes or haul butt up the steep hill. Wanting to not destroy my battery to make it home I dropped the gears, hit the throttle and pedaled with the bike up the hill. Worked like a charm and everybody without an ebike was definitely wanting one lol I know that mid drives stretch and destroy chains easily but for me the cost of more frequent chain changes makes up for the stress. You're 100% right about the gears and free wheels though, I wish we had beefier components for sure.

[@chrislatchem1854]

You are right about sharing the final drive with humans and motor. It is a weak link as 'evolution' of bicycling dictates as light as possible all components for humans. However with good chain gearing selection I do not think the freewheel/freehub slack is the big problem, maybe cutting power for shifts, peddle to make the shift, then use the throttle. It would help. Long term a 2ndary drive strong system like on Sur-Ron might be a solution here. The gearing for you is "out", not matched, for linking to the motor. Many mid-drives eliminate this problem with a gear box built into the motor to match where both you and motor are efficient (Like the Cyclone motors). The chain drive from motor to cranks can be altered too to help here. And I would just use the throttle control to also help here (get that sensor circuit out of the mix!). Your drive in the wheel is geared! to help with this problem which is why that works so well. An advantage of mid-drive is keeping the weight in the center of the bike and not having it 'unsprung' in the wheel. I unfortunately didn't realize all the benefits that I could have, as I built my e-bike on a rigid frame! Should have used a full suspension frame! Used a Cyclone motor from Luna (discontinued). I did have a problem with corrosion in one 'sealed' bearing as water and salt got in there and overloaded the system.

[@johnvincent7163]

I have two mid drive Bafang bikes. My opinion is the pros outnumber the cons with mid drives...I'm having a blast on mine!

[@robertmiller9142]

I have a mountain bike that I am trying to convert into a hybrid pedal assist bike that is both gas and electric for hunting and outdoors use as I am on a very fixed budget so I am thinking that in the long run it will more than pay for its self but I am worried about weight I want to add a mid drive electric engine but am thinking that a hub drive mite be a better idea with a gas engine for use for the longer distance because the exhaust usually hangers right where the mid drive engine would be or rather right in front and I was planning to add a jack shaft so that it would only be powered thrue the gears on both the front and rear sprockets and allow for a disc brake to be used front and back on the wheels. What do you think?

[@geokrpan7527]

What is needed is some sort of transmission that allows the motor to spin at the optimal RPM, and, always maintains some pedal resistance at all speeds.

[@jonmayer]

Like bike gears, that are on the bike...

[@ShadowGirl-]

My bafang middrive bicycle came with an internal gear hub, which has worked great. You should try one of those! 💕

[@KiwiIyer]

It might be a good idea to have the torque sensor at the wheel, as well as an internal geared hub, and belt drive.

[@crashymicsplody2279]

Im building my next e bike this winter and i was wondering about a hub or a mid drive and nobody talked about the mid drive rides compared to a hub thanks bro

[@D1AK0NDA]

Dude, you have no idea how much better the mid-drive format is...

[@Syllaren]

Another big benefit of the hub motor is not having to replace the chain in the field. Chain pops. Take if off, put it away, throttle your way home.

[@greedyg76]

The hit to the freewheel can be solved with some simple motor tuning and the issue of gear ratio just seems like you're not selecting the correct gear for the current speed/load condition. On a mid drive that uses the rear cassette gearing, it is super important to make sure you are in the correct gear. Just like a manual transmission car it would likely be unwise to try merging onto a fwy on ramp in 1st or 5th gear.

[@umamichefd]

A good free hub and cassette helps a lot. A cheap freewheel will eventually come apart with a moderately powerful mid drive. Turning down your start current(soft start) helps as well

[@BlackMamba-lt8oe]

bro explain in simple English

[@dant.6364]

The problem is that you have people building 1500 watt ebikes who don’t know the difference between a freewheel and a cassette.

[@BlackMamba-lt8oe]

@@dant.6364 there is a free wheel inside a cassette, but your comment nis top

[@dant.6364]

@@BlackMamba-lt8oe I think you mean that there is a free hub in a cassette.

[@dant.6364]

Both freewheels and cassettes have freehubs.

[@JamEZmusic86]

And this is exactly why I prefer my rear hub motor. I can balance the effort to power ratio perfectly so I can actually put in reasonable effort and get much further plus more effectively burn much more fat while still having all the power I need on tap for if I need it. I could go on and on and on about why I think rear hub motors are far superior in almost every way. But I won't bore anyone. (I own both)

[@johndouglas770]

I've done a lot of conversations over the years, front and rear geared and direct drive as well as mid drives. CYC C1 Stealth is in my opinion the best conversation kit on the market today, excellent built quality and exceptional performance. It's not cheapest but sometimes you get what you pay for. My advice is always use a good quality cassette. If you are on a limited budget, check out the Tongsheng TSDZ2, the performance is adequate for a lot of people, it like the CYC is easy to install and it won't break the bank. 😉

[@andreeneliko]

BBSHD vs CYC? Combined w a 72v, purpose of attempting food delivery

[@johndouglas770]

@@andreeneliko CYC😉

[@MrAdamNTProtester]

another commenter who understands the difference between a FEEWHEEL & a CASSETTE with a FREEHUB... unlike the clown who made this video🤣

[@rdkuless]

Nice ride.. ride safely. :)

[@veryveryintense]

I've had two bafang bbs02 mid drives in the past and am currently running a Tsdz2 (Tongsheng) mid drive on a full suspension santa cruz blur. The Tongsheng has had some issues that all relate to the very low build quality, but I love the torque sensing and it does seem to run best at 80-90rpm which is the ideal cadence for pedalling according to the display (I have open source firmware and an 860c which gives human and motor power in real time). I run a hope hub and it doesn't suffer this issue you are having with your freehub, but I only run 550 watts so that may be why it has survived. I want to get a hub motor bike to have a more moped like high speed ebike but a good torque sensing mid drive set up properly really incentivises you to put some work in and get exercise and just go faster than you would without a motor.

[@dougfurr5217]

BBSHD with Ludicrous 3K watt controller on a Sturmey Archer 8spd IGH. Can hit 45-50mph on flats and motor is still stamped as 750w for the cops when pulled over. Chainline was a pain to dial in, but no issues since.

[@jtpinion4294]

Hello, hope you are well. I have an old hub motor e-bike that I found behind the bins and just couldn't get on with the pedal assist as it kicked in too fast when you start to pedal. It has a half throttle as well though, so I disconnected the peadal assist sensor and just use the throttle to guage where it needs to be when pedalling. It is a lot better as I've modified the controller in order to give more power. Only complaint is now the top gear when pedalling makes my legs go too fast... needs a taller ratio i think. With regards to mid drive kits however, I think they are a good idea for lower powers. The problem with running higher powered mid systems is that the drive train is not engineered to deal with that much power. The torque and hammer action inside the freewheel is going to wear out really quickly, then fail. Then you can't even pedal it because your main drive train is shot. Higher powered mid drive systems should have their own drive train and gear system that are self contained. One idea could be to use a pupose built sturmey archer style hub gear (more durable), coupled with the regular deraileur system. The motor would have it's own drive train and work through the hub gears. The pedals also have the usual chain etc setup but would be able to meet the speed at which the motor turns the rear hub gears, both pedalling and motor would work through the hub gears making for a high speed, high powered vehicle which could be tuned to each individual riders fitness level electronically and mechanically. No more destroying freewheels and chains. Quite surprised I haven't seen anything like that yet.

[@ghost-wm1hw]

I have done the same, but now run a 53x9 gear ratio. Pedalling at 35mph no problems. 3500miles on it so far. Been bullet proof,

[@12321goofball]

Ive seen an ebike like this from china. Its a high powered mid drive with a belt going to the rear wheels along the left chain stay and the regular chain that pedals the bike on the right side. Not sure about the pedal assist details or anything.

[@animefreak5757]

Your first issue is due to low quality freewheel\freehub, and your second is your expectations. If you want a powerful middrive (that doesn't instantly break parts), the rpm has to be high (power is torque x speed, and torque must be limited for a mid drive) You can still use it at comfortable cadence's, but the power output will be somewhat limited. If you want monster power at human cadence's, you need to go hubmotor. Having that massive hub motor on at the same time as your middrive is a issue as well....unless your running dual controllers and powering them both. I just got my x1 gen2 on today, and so far i love it. I can pedal along at up to 30km\h (which is the legal limit here, and tbh about as fast as i want to go anyway) and the throttle is sublime with the BAC 855. Even with my crappy freehub, the power engagement is smooth. My previous kit (cyclone 3000) is a total piece of junk in comparison. It probably could have been fixed with a ASI controller, but i couldn't find any solid guides on how to set one up with it, and tons of complaints that the hall sensors didn't work.

[@tamashamas6193]

Never owned a mid drive but with your second issue... With a properly selected fixed gear reduction between the motor itself and the cranks, as most mid drives do, the motors power band should be able to coincide with our own. Does this idea sound plausible?

[@nomad_lyfe]

I agree mate I have a 750w bafang mid drive and my legs just spin out on most of the gears, I can ride mostly normal on low setting and low to medium gear but thats the only sweet spot imo.

[@seafood459]

I've had to program the controller countless times before I found a sweet spot. But now my legs spin out only when using the throttle. I'm using between 2% of the motors powerful in gear 1 on the display and scaled up to 13% in gear 5. So yeah, the motor is really nerfed but it's a lot nicer to pedal. And I always have that 100% power while using throttle

[@Jahmall841]

How many miles did you get out of the chain and sprocket, using a mid drive?

[@ffrreeddyy123456]

Love this video cuz we gotta figure out how to make a kid drive go fast without pedaling low gear super fast and it topping out before the top speed!! I have been wondering about how to make the bike go fast the whole time until I get to top speed.

[@Drunkenmagus]

Look forward to seeing you upgrade that bike now with the Grin controller.

[@sammiller6631]

Grin controller? Hell yeah!

[@siov4279]

PLEASE SHOW HOW YOU ATTACHED THAT "A STYLE" Battery pack to bike

[@mr.raiders7029]

I own a bbshd and my only issue is I have broken 3 freewheels in 2 years. Breaks the teeth I even start off in the 32t freewheel cog and shift down to the 11t gradually. But after some long rides teeth start breaking and it sucks. Guess it's just part of the power it gives out.

[@holyscience3763]

well you can install a gearbox hub like a rohloff 14 then you can have a single, fixed sprocket right?

[@MrNosajwhitey]

Enjoyed liked and subscribed

[@johncillo6179]

I've got 1500watt rear hub and bbshd mid drive. Hub on city and not too steep hills is perfect. If they did a 3000 watt hub motor I think you can climb everest. Hubs is less bullcrap. Smooth silent works amazing. I've done 2000 miles no problems, I leave it parked outside all winter with no cover and just pop the battery on and shoot off to work. Mid drive I've had chain drops, snags, alignment issues. All sorts and it's not a nice feeling with the noisy chain going. However it's got way more torque for the hills and the weight in the middle is preferable on mountain. However I wouldn't convert a standard mountain bike for mid drive I would only do a fat bike full suspension in future. You got so much torque you need the bigger tyres for traction. And the full suspension would be epic. Just a note on the hubs, the don't fit the standard drop outs get a cheap frame and file the drop out to fit. The hub wants to rip your dropouts apart so you usually need a little device that locks the wheel in place. Should cost 20 bucks on ebay. That's the only snag. Piss easy to build.

[@joebuck4496]

Does a mid drive with a Rohloff hub gear negate the first issue?

[@colincampbell4261]

You should maybe try the tongsheng tsdz2 mid drive torque sensing motor?

[@jimmyjames8736]

Your comments about mid drives may mostly be related to the CYC drive that you used. The CYC is at the high end of watts and torque. But it was run thru a low end drivetrain. I haven't gotten to try a CYC so I don't know about its smoothness of control either. I've ridden Shimano, Bosch, and Bafang though. Shimano was butter smooth, felt very natural and connected to legs. Assist seemed pretty linear of pedal torque vs motor output. Bosch was very similar but felt a little more exponential motor output vs pedal torque. I have BBSHD in old Trek. It feels a little less smooth and makes more noise than my buddy's Shimano. But the Bafang is definitely faster, especially up a hill. Haven't had cadence issues with the mid drives I have ridden. They have all done a good job at interpreting my leg inputs. Maybe the CYC is overboosting output vs input in order to "feel" extra fast and causing the cadence problem. Your observations were good about your CYC experience in a bargain bike. But those observations don't really carry over to mid drives in general.

[@jimmyjames8736]

I may have replied to NPL as requested but probably not because I seem to lack telegram competency lol. I'd swear that I saw my reply on here but it is gone now. Hope the telegram stuff doesn't still have to be done in Morse code.

[@nordicsky]

In the UK we are not allowed to have throttles and you will make no progress if you don't peddle. The best way to avoid stress on the rear hub is to be in the same gear ratio as if were on a bike. I tend to move the power button up and down depending on the terrain. I basically want to cycle as much as possible and just use full power for pesky hills.

[@13woden]

Uk needs some freedom

[@mitchbatten8281]

You SERIOUSLY!!!!! need to put an end to the tyrannical, foreign, unelected rulers that have overtaken your country.

[@JudeTheYoutubePoopersubscribe]

I've got a throttle anyway, never had any issues riding it.

[@persiathiest1963]

It's an EU law too

[@underdogoutdoors]

Just subscribed, looks like you live in my area based on Rt. 22 & 78. I just purchased a Bakcou Grizzly scooter, it's 1000W hub drive, for getting way back on a farm with no hills, works great. Can you recommend a fat tire type ebike that can get me up hills, with rack options, like a basket in front and rear rack? I see Bakcou sells them, but they are $5k and up!! Was hoping for other options to save a few bucks.

[@jacquesblaque7728]

About the relative load mismatch between motor & pedals of mid-drives, check out available assembly pix | drawings, and note the reduction gearing between motor & crankset. Prob. gone.

[@Charles-Darwin]

I don't remember the video, but with the freewheel issue & mid drive- these guys demonstrated a nifty mod to the freewheel. They shaved like .5mm or so off 2 (opposing) of the 4 ratcheting arms so that the 'latch' timing was on when other 2 were off.. this artificially doubles the contact points in the freewheel assembly *(at a claimed cost of a slightly lessened lifespan of the component), but one could possibly find titanium ratchet arms. This would reduce the play you demonstrated and could possibly/inadvertently actually extend the life VS allowing the play in action and causing the experienced damage from 'kickback'. Idk, give it a search here on YT.

[@myscreen2urs]

I've been riding hub motor for several years and I recently rediscovered the joy of pedaling by adding a single speed 53T crankset. It's an empowering feeling when you can crank your legs and actually keep up with your motor 😂. I just upgraded my second bike with a 58T. I can't wait to feel that leverage😁

[@drevilatwork]

Thank you for this video... i was suspecting this issues because if u know anything about electric motors this makes sense

[@docbailey3265]

Help! So where would a Shimano Nexus internal hub fit into the grand scheme of things?

[@janeblogs324]

Motorbike sprockets bolt onto a rubber damper. It cushions the throttle input beautifully

[@joseureste8257]

My tongsheng tsdz2 with open source firmware has enough power with a 36v battery. I've ruined 2 rear rims already. The torque sensing is amazing. But I had a hub motor for years before that and it served me well. I'm switching back to a hub motor

[@cunninglycalculated4583]

I just purchased the cyc x1 pro & bac2000 in late May 2022 and my drive train pops in ever gear when I get on it hard quickly. I probably need to upgrade my rear cog and freewheel so it can handle the additional power. Also the chain pops off the sprocket fairly easily. I have riden 1500w hub motor for over 7 years with little to no issues but I'm noticing mid drive motors have much more going on with the bicycle transmission and isn't as quiet as my hub motor bicycle. I'm thinking of possibly going with 3000w or 5000w hub motor and replacing this cyc motor just for simplicity reasons.

[@Cool_Papa_Funk]

I'm in the process of working through that right now with my X1 Stealth kit. Backing out the B screw so the chain contacts more teeth helps a lot, but you lose tension. I started removing chain links to make up for it, and it has gotten better and better the more I remove. It's now perfect on the highest power setting in all but the top gear. I think a few more links may get it - I'm just being conservative (easier to remove than replace).

[@slimdunkin117]

I max the torque out at about 22mph pedaling on a m620..Pedaling isn’t as fast as you’re doing but there’s minimal resistance left. So to go over 22mph gotta use throttle

[@thomasjalabert658]

High ends cassettes have little to no play. And at high speed they make nice sounds :) Also I never had your second problem with my mid hub. I think when you're using a powerful motor it's more of a motorbike and it makes little sense to pedal with it.

[@justtestingonce]

Exactly 100%.