The 2024 D&D Bard is a Secret Wizard | 2024 Player's Handbook

[@Alex-wo1bs]

Bard main here: Yeah no more find greater steed is sad but I see it as both good for the game and more than a fair trade for the new magical secrets. Also cantrips on extra attack for valor bard, its so amazing! us bard players are eating GOOD this edition

[@Ahglock]

You were eating good in 2014, better than every class other than wizard. Now i'm saying top slot. well other than the art.

[@AlabamaBoiz]

Still get phantom steed

[@xiongray]

Dancing Bard is going to be my favorite pick. Might still dip into a single level in Paladin for... DIVINE SMITE!

[@InsightCheck]

Hahaha sounds like a fun time!

[@TsujiCross]

Not as fun anymore, Divine Smite is becoming a bonus action spell now 😔

[@xiongray]

@@TsujiCross Divine Smite! Maybe it's better for a Valor Bard. Vicious Mockery Extra Attack.

[@Pun_Of_A_Kind]

You mean Paladin’s Smite 💁🏽‍♂️

[@SantanaBanana47]

​@@TsujiCross Paladins are too good anyway

[@HorizonOfHope]

0) More important than 1 - been waiting for this video! Best on KZbin. Treatmonk is thorough but it means we have to listen to the original video. This is the best, most concise feature. 1) Bards were always so amazing that even with Song of Rest being meh and Countercharm being terrible it never really mattered. Still, nice to see something being done about them. 2) That artwork is all incredible except for one tiny thing... anyone else notice how weird the woman's little finger is? 0:00:12

[@InsightCheck]

Hahaha you have no idea how much I appreciate the consistent kind words! It makes the hard work worth it :) And yeah, I hadn’t notice. The finger is really odd lol

[@The_Crimson_Witch]

Could be AI... Or could be her holding down a string to play a chord, and hands are difficult to draw even when they aren't bending like crazy to make stringed instruments make the right sounds 😂

[@elementzero3379]

I like to hear the original video and then Treantmonk's accompanying commentary. I wouldn't want to do it twice to hear Insight Check's opinions, so I'm glad they each use a different approach. I've enjoy both.

[@InsightCheck]

@elementzero3379 I’m glad and that was exactly my intent! Chris is already doing an incredible job with his reaction videos and I didn’t feel like I could do the same so I took a different, more condensed approach. I’m happy people notice and appreciate the differences!

[@elementzero3379]

@@InsightCheck I appreciate the extra effort it takes. You have to present all these features and then expound. That's a lot of work.

[@umbreeunix]

As a person who plays and loves the bard, all the changes are welcomed and more than justified. Bardic Inspo gets some much needed versatility, Countercharm is actually useful, and now the only toes my bard will be stepping on is the Wizard's, cuz the nerds deserve it /jk In all seriousness, class exclusive spells should always be class exclusive. Good changes overall.

[@_zurr]

Warlock 2/Valor 6 seems... interesting. Pact of the Blade giving you CHA-based weaponry, and Agonizing Blast added to Eldritch blast. You lose out on the capstone and epic boons, though.

[@keeganmbg6999]

Most players will never get the epic boons or the capstones.

[@vortigern7021]

Also a great way to pick up the blade cantrips and possibly weapon masteries I don't know if they have confirmed pact of the blade still has them. So surprised Valor bard didn't get weapon mastery.

[@fabiononis4066]

But eldritch blast now increase only on your warlock levels so you had just one blast and not two at 8th level

[@The_Crimson_Witch]

​@vortigern7021 It seems weapon masteries are being removed from anything except base classes. War cleric no longer gets them, Valor bard no longer gets them. I think we can take this as an indicator that pact of the blade will not be getting weapon masteries

[@zazikel1885]

You need to dip into martial for weapon mastery. Fighter or Paladin seems to be the best dips for valor bard.

[@keiracoven]

WOTC seems so eager to remove the individuality of all the classes. Hell, the druid and cleric pretty much have half their class features copypasted and now this.

[@lordptk4115]

What I just realized when it comes to the new College of Valor extra attack that allows casting a cantrip...the current Bard Spell list does not include Green Flame Blade and Booming blade, which of course are the premier option for this extra attack, and the main reason you would want it. Let's hope they included these cantrips for the bard otherwise you gotta use an expensive feat or magical secret to get them.

[@willow7610]

Keep in mind once you hit level 10 you could theoretically swap ALL your spells for Wizard spells I don't think they'll add those 2 cantrips to the Bard by default though

[@leslierobinson8724]

I usually take a 1st level dip into Sorcerer to get not only Booming Blade, and other cantrips but also the Shield and Absorb Elements spells. Not to mention the proficiencies in both Cha and Con.

[@lordptk4115]

@@leslierobinson8724 yeah that is a solid option

[@malmasterson3890]

​@willow7610 Well, all the future spells you choose, and then slowly swap out your current spells. The current Bard does have access to Blade Ward as well which seems like it'll be a decent option to take with this.

[@The_Crimson_Witch]

Don't they get truestrike though? Unless Truestrike changed from the playtest, it would probably be the pick for this. That or vicious mockery

[@leslierobinson8724]

Nice. The updated Bard is awesome, nearly everything is just better, including magical secrets. Yes, not having access to Ranger, Warlock, Paladin or Sorcerer spell lists isn't nothing but come on being able to choose from not only your spell list but the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard's at 10th level, and onward is just better imo. I have played 2 Bards (both college of swords, I adore the subclass its especially tanky at high levels though you do have to figure out how to obtain shield proficiency which isn't difficult but will cost something) and I can't wait to pick up Conjure Animals, and maybe Conjure Minor Elements for another Bard build. I don't know why they nerfed the 14th level feature for Glamour, but I do understand why they toned down Dance a bit, though I did like the Otto's Dance inclusion in UA. Anywho, keep up the good works, take care all.

[@malmasterson3890]

It's purely a positive change imo. Making the Half-Casters & Warlock inaccessible does a lot to help preserve their identity and stop Bard from getting their goodies earlier and with more spell slots.

[@halozoo2436]

I'd actually say that Magical Secrets is actually both absurdly ridiculous... yet hilariously awful in practice because of how it works. Keep in mind that Magical Secrets no longer gives you more Spells Known, meaning that you're now having to choose between more Bard Spells or Cleric/Druid/Wizard Spells, and unless they've changed Bards back to actually Preparing Spells like in the Playtest 2 Bard (one of only 2 good parts of that version alongside the 10th Lvl Subclass Feature) this means you're forced to use your Level-Ups to get more than just 1 Spell from another List. I get that this looks like a massive boost in power, but I'm pretty sure that this will ultimately only benefit Artificer, Paladin, Ranger and Warlock (Sorcerer doesn't really matter) and not the Bard itself. All they needed to do was just remove the ability to grab at least Paladin and Ranger Spells, instead they've created an awesome looking ability that will just end up playing worse than it did before.

[@leslierobinson8724]

@@halozoo2436 You're right choices will need to be made related to overall less spells known but I still like the change very much (at least for now, we'll see how it plays soon enough) ;).

[@halozoo2436]

@@leslierobinson8724 I personally think that they needed to make it just give you dedicated Spells Prepared for your Magical Secrets, since the current version is absolutely bonkers yet terrible. There's a reason they changed Patron Spells on Warlock, and this is going the inverse direction currently and I hate it, Bards shouldn't have to sacrifice stuff that makes them a Bard just for their Feature to do anything when it previously did stuff without such an annoying sacrifice. Plus, I really like the idea of Bards Preparing Spells instead of Learning them, as they have a bunch of nifty utility Spell that you don't really want to pick as a Learned Caster since you can't change them out when you don't need them. Just feels like Bards are only getting half of what they really needed to be the Class they want to be, with some baffling changes that just don't make sense in the grand scheme of things.

[@leslierobinson8724]

@@halozoo2436 Nope, I believe assigning a dedicated list of spells would have had even more people in an absolute uproar. "Now, we're just forced to into these spells just cause without options...". Currently, at the very least you have plenty of options, no not as many as before pertaining to the number of available spell lists, or number known but more in the amount of spells you can obtain from the four determined lists. I like this feature because its still about what you want to do. If you prefer more bard spells with only a few spells from other lists you can do that or vice versa. Additionally, consider that Wizards are suppose to be the apex of spellcasting, and manage to retain that by still having the most spells known of all full casters, being able to access a spell not prepared without too much hassle, and having access to/cast ritual spells without needing to prepare them. Bards are Bards, and other classes retain their identity with this feature imo.

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

It might be the case that a bard can choose between a magical secret which is only able to be swapped at a level up, and a bard spell that is swapped on a long rest. If it's not, then magical secrets is just an absurd amount of spell flexibility. Having access to the entire wizard spell list alone, let alone all non halfcaster/warlock lists with no draw backs swapping one spell per long rest is arguably more flexibility with spell access than wizards have with their petty books. And honestly, that's a problem for two reasons. For one, bards won't play anything like the fantasy of a bard, since peak bard fantasy involves certain weaknesses (damage, defense) contrasted by the ability to individualize themselves, and neither are present when all spells on a class where all bards after a certain level have access to all spells in the game

[@umbreeunix]

Bard has never been able to swap spells on a Long Rest, and that doesn't seem to have changed with the new version. (despite the confusing wording on the table) Bards still only swap 1 spell at a time, now they can just do it each level up instead of when they get new spells. Also, the new Magical Secrets specifically REMOVES access to the halfcaster/warlock lists, which they could use in the 2014 version. They only gain access to the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid lists, only now that access extends outside Magical Secrets. I assume this still operates on the same '1 spell swap per level up' like the rest of the Bard's spells, since it isn't stated otherwise. 2024 Bards have more flexibility in choice, true, but they don't have the freedom of interchangeability that Wizard or Cleric do. A fact that remains even with the new version of Magical Secrets. To be honest, these changes promote far more individuality than the 2014 Bard had prior while no longer stepping on the toes of halfcasters/warlocks anymore.

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

​@@umbreeunixI can not stress how little of a deal it is that bard doesn't get access to spells that aren't on the druid cleric or wizard list, only 32 spells in the entire game are lost to the bard by this restriction, 31 when you consider the fact that greater stead no longer exists, and 34 if you think the sorceror unique spells were added, and, none are above 5th level. This change was made for pretty much one reason. Bards kept getting find stead, and changes to other classes would let them get divine smite too. You mostly miss out on over 20 ranger/paladin spells that interact directly with weapons you don't use, and like, 7 warlock spells. But the versatility of having almost every spell in the game is just unmatched and flies in the face of the identity of bard

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

@@umbreeunix Also, not true, read the ranger article on dnd beyond, all classes can swap at least one single prepared spell around every long rest

[@ethanrapske1768]

I really like this new Bard! It might be the one I'm most excited for out of all the new classes. Love this breakdown video!

[@InsightCheck]

Thanks!! I’m glad you enjoyed it :)

[@1MrKale]

Killin' it with these video titles & thumbnails 😂 (and the content of course too!)

[@InsightCheck]

Thank you so much! I truly appreciate it!

[@pederw4900]

Good job IC! I’m rootin for ya! Thanks for the verbal novella over the last month or so, I’m looking forward to your further coverage

[@InsightCheck]

Verbal novella! LOL honestly yeah, that’s pretty much been it! Thank you :)

[@srmillard]

that 20th level capstone is very solid, relatively speaking

[@Ahglock]

Its funny how hit or miss those capstones are. bards is pretty legit, flavorful, fun and fairly powerful. The warlocks seems to just be 1/2 of what they got in 2014 and that was considered a crap capstone. Not complaining about the warlock in general it looks great overall and its not like people hit 20 very often. But damn, they couldn't come up with something more interesting than that.

[@fabiononis4066]

Dancing bard is a huge class in my opinion, but even if it looks like a monk hard it isn't, when a monk can use 5 unarmed strikes in a turn the bard, who have a nice unarmed strike option, still have just one attack and a bonus attack IF he use a ispiration dice, hes cool but definitely not a monk

[@malmasterson3890]

It's really everything else going on that'll make the option great. A possible free grapple, the ability to move allies effortlessly, a huge bonus to party initiative, eventually party wide Evasion. Overall Dance Bard is a good utility support character masquerading as a bad unarmed martial.

[@fabiononis4066]

@@malmasterson3890 and it's great, I can see the similarity to monks, but it's still a spellcaster class that has some very cool moves that can support the party in a very original way we never saw before

[@znail4675]

I think the Dance bard is rather under powered and missing something. It's rather telling that I think that even if you gave the Dance bard the extra attack Valor bards have so would it still be worse then Valor.

[@calvinwarlick8533]

​@@znail4675Sure if you think of it as a punching Bard instead of a Support Bard. You can help an ally escape danger, speed up the slower party members, and Salsa an ally through an Ancient Red Dragons fire breath so they take no damage. That's crazy useful.

[@znail4675]

@@calvinwarlick8533 The main issue is that the Evasion feature is locked behind level 14 making it a late game feature that even if you play that far so will it not be around for most levels. And without that feature so are all the cool things linked with using Bardic Inspiration. All the other sub classes gets things they have access to all the time without spending BI. Note, that I consider being able to punch for less then weapon damage or not wear armor for worse AC then armor not really features that increases the subclass power. They add some flavor, but not actual power.

[@Ahglock]

I don't know they seem maybe too good now. They were probably the 2nd most powerful class before, now they seem even better and definitely got more upgrades than the previous top slot the wizard.

[@g00se99]

Just a random thought but playing 5.24 without a grid would be challenging. 5.14 would be too but so many abilities in the new PHB give specific movement amount abilities it seems very tedious to me.

[@MrSeals1000]

Eeeeeh I don't see too much of a problem, at least not one that cant be remedied quickly. All the movement can basically be summed up as a little movement, decent movement, and a lot of movement. As long as it's like 15, 30, +30, then it should be relatively easy to say you move away a bit, givr yourself space from the enemy, or move out of where an enemy could hunt you down. And vice versa depending on how far away a player says they would have been at the start of combat

[@gystes_]

Eh. While I don’t think its nerfed, magical secrets wasn't exactly buffed either. At 10th level your only getting 1 new spell. This means that if you want 2 spells from a different spell list, you either have to wait a level OR are forced to swap a bard spell out. Essentailly your not really seeing an improvement until 15th level. And this is on top of the list being more limited. Most people also aren’t noticing the change anyway, as the average adventure caps at 10.

[@InsightCheck]

You are missing a very big element which I did also mention in the video. Bards (like all spellcasters now) are able to replace a spell on a level up. This means that at every level from 10 onward you are able to replace one of your Bard spells with a new one and that can be from any of the four lists. As this includes 10th level; that means that when you unlock Magical Secrets you gain a new spell from any of the 4 lists and you can also replace an old one from any of the 4 lists which means you still can potentially have 2 new spells from Wizard or whatever at 10th.

[@KyotoChronicler]

Magical secrets is perfect now.

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

Valor Bards look like they’ll be a ton of fun in 5.5. Bladesinger extra attack and crazy spell versatility? Yes please!

[@RobearRich]

I still really wish that inspiration was a reaction. I really liked that.

[@TheOptimismprime]

As always impressed by your turnaround

[@MatthewBlachut-nr9bg]

Why does Dance Bard’s Agile Strike allow you to use an Unarmed Strike when using an action to expend a Bardic Inspiration? They have no ability to expend a BI as an action. Unless I’m missing something?

[@TheOptimismprime]

I think there was a misspeak. It’s just supposed to be whatever you use a Bardic inspiration.

[@TheOptimismprime]

The unarmed strike is part of the Bardic inspiration usage. Like when the monks use a focus point to upgrade a class feature

[@DistortedSemance]

​@FlickNReel No, it's definitely intentional. For example, rolling initiative is not any kind of action, so when you use Tandem Footwork, you don't get a free unarmed strike.

[@5-Volt]

​@@DistortedSemanceIf initiative is an ability check, I'd argue it's an action but how likely is a bard going to be within melee when they roll initiative anyway?

[@DistortedSemance]

@5-Volt It may be an "action" in the casual sense, but it is not an Action (capital "A") in the mechanical sense. Only things which explicitly say "using your Action" in the rules text count as an Action as far as the mechanics are concerned. This is why the game is careful to cover mundane things like picking up objects as Actions (i.e. the Interact with Object action) because otherwise, it would not be. For example, jumping or climbing can potentially require an ability check, but these ability checks do not count as Actions, they are counted as part of your movement for the turn.

[@Erik-um1zn]

I've said it before, but I've never seen the Bard as that much of a powerhouse of a caster. It was a bit of stretch to give them full 9th level casting in 5e to begin with. Sure, they don't get the flexibility/versatility of swapping out their spells every day or the same number of spell slots. But when Bards get the feature, they are really going to start with high level spells. From an optimization standpoint, Bards are just going to be incentivized to just pick the best high level spells in the game. Unless they make a lot of 6+ level spells Sorcerer exclusive, they are just going to cherry pick the best high level spells. All Bards will have Wish, True Resurrection, Forcecage, Simulacrum, whatever are thought to be the most broken high level spells. And Lore Bards can do this from sixth level on. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this plays out. I really do like that magic initiate is restricted to the Wizard/Cleric/Druid list.

[@thegloatingstorm8323]

Why play a wizard with no class features and the wizard spell list when you can instead play a bard with class features and the wizard list? Seriously: they gave Bard Wizard’s entire class identity and then some

[@malmasterson3890]

Wizard will still have far more spells than a Bard, as the Bard isn't getting the free 2 spells immediately and will have to slowly tailor their spell list to pick the ones they want each level. Wizard will still be the premiere utility caster and honestly there's a strong argument for it still being the best class in the game overall period.

[@elementzero3379]

I love Wizards, and I'm curious to see how things stack up once I can see all of these classes and their spells in context. It certainly feels like the gap has closed. Wizards barely moved, while the other full casters received nice new features. I wish they'd found a way to at least throw the Wizard a few ribbons, to freshen the experience; but I'm glad to see everyone else rising. (The Rogue needed more DPR, but I can tinker and narrow that gap once I can run some math.) The Scribe Wizard will remain my favorite, due to it's fun class features, but the new Illusionist looks fun, too.

[@thegloatingstorm8323]

@@malmasterson3890 I think strongest might just go to sorcerer. At the levels people actually play their spell list isn’t too far off from Wizard’s and they get buffed Metamagic + a new Super Saiyan form on top of

[@malmasterson3890]

@@thegloatingstorm8323 I agree that it's likely between the two Arcane Full Casters. Sorcerer will likely become my favorite caster overall for the new Innate Sorcery & accompanying features. As a Barbarian main, Rage is one of my favorite features for flavor potential and this new Sorcerer is much in the same vein. Sorcerer was arguably the worst full caster though before so it's not like they buffed second place to Wizard, and do note that both the Tasha's Sorcerers have been nerfed as well as the best metamagic.

[@Zombiewithabowtie]

Level 20 Wizard; "I am the apex of the arcane!" Level 20 Bard; "Oh yeah? Well guess who can cast as many 8th and 9th level spells per day as they have thumbs? ... *This guy!"*

[@fabiononis4066]

I know that as a 18th level class option gain 2 ispiration dice is not exciting, bur that means that if you just fought and had no time to rest you have 2 ispiration dice free to spend, and you still have other source to gain another dice by burning spell's slot if I'm not wrong, so isn't that bad at all

[@KaelinGoff]

The bard puns were music to my ears.

[@Magnus2dead]

I'm glad they have kept Bards as strong as they were. The old Bards of previous editions didn't really work well and I think they found a good spot for them.

[@marcdavis4509]

Song of Rest and Counter charm were pretty bad. I don’t like the idea of no being able to lose inspiration there has to be a risk of loss otherwise victories become empty. I will miss taking Paladin spells. Crusaders Mantle adds a lot of extra damage and Destructive Wave

[@bluesnake4626]

Wouldn't be a potential 26 spells from other lists of you replace every level frona level up from an old bard spell to a new spell from another list?

[@amazingmenace6168]

I’m gonna play a warlock that dips into dance bard.

[@mathieuberube4486]

At the end... how good is 5e 2024. Better than 2014 overall ?

[@InsightCheck]

Overall, from everything that we have seen so far? I would say yes, it looks better than 2014. Wild class imbalances seem to have largely been addressed, qualify of life features in both the books themselves and their usability also seem fixed.

[@_zurr]

Does the Dance bard also get to use Dexterity for its grapple/shoves? Because if not, that unarmed strike is less versatile than they implied in the video.

[@leslierobinson8724]

JC didn't mention it, so I don't think so. Guess we'll see soonish though for sure.

[@Malkor13]

They get expertise still

[@EpicRandomness555]

I think it’s for the best if it doesn’t. Keeps the Monk more unique and better at being unarmed.

[@egg_l0rd13]

As explained in the Monk video, grapples and shoves are now types of unarmed strikes. This means that any ability that lets you use Dexterity for your unarmed strikes applies to grapples and shoves by default.

[@EpicRandomness555]

@@egg_l0rd13 Mmmm no… The Monk specifically has an ability that lets you use Dex for the saving throw. The Dance bard doesn’t say that. Ginny Di has a video so it should say there

[@captenigma]

The title of your video is misleading to me. The Bard was never a half-caster in 5th edition. It's been a bonafide spell caster all throughout 5th edition. And with magical secrets, I'd argue it's more powerful than a wizard in some cases.

[@meikahidenori]

If I couldn't dislike the bard more... 😅 it's not that it's an awful class, the problem is it is over powered and craps on ALL the others. Playing in a party with one is absolutely annoying as they just take over practically everything 😅 they're great if you have a solo player who needs to cover all bases honestly but they're going to pain in the butt for anyone they cut into skills wise at the table. Hopefully this isn't the case.

[@bluelionsage99]

Hmm, so wizards are not the most skilled arcane magic users as Bards have special spell powers and sorcerers bend magic around at will with their class powers.

[@indigoblacksteel1176]

Am I the only one who thinks Inspiring Movement is overly complicated? You've got Sight, 5 feet, 60 feet, reaction, half movement, bardic inspiration, 5x your bardic inspiration die, and opportunity attacks all involved. I feel like you can throw out the 60 feet and half movement, maybe even the reaction. You and your ally would each just get 5x the bardic inspiration die in movement. (You could make the movement simpler too, but I know they want to use the bardic inspiration die for something--preferably that scales.) If you throw out the reaction, you might be able to do it more than once in a round, but you'd be burning through inspiration to do it. You'd have to judge if it was worth it. This isn't the first feature that they've made pretty complicated when they didn't need to in the new 2024 rules.

[@meikahidenori]

Movement rules are useless to Theatre of mind players so I'm curious what home brew well have to implement to make this functional

[@kailenmitchell8571]

As I life long wizard I despise this so much I NEVER WANT TO HERE THE ARGUMENT THAT STEPS ON MY CLASSES TOES. I HATE BARDS

[@arturohernandez8789]

🦍

[@fortunatus1]

Magical Secrets is too expansive. The Wizard is a pointless class now. Lore Bard is just a better Wizard.

[@malmasterson3890]

LoL no, not only does this not come close to stepping on Wizard, but Wizard is likely still the best class in the game. Bard will eventually be able to tailor their selection over each level to get the best spells of each, but Wizard will not only be 6-10 levels ahead for their own list, but will have more cantrips & spells overall, especially with rituals.

[@tiradegrandmarshal]

Wizards can still swap out all of their prepared spells daily. They still win in the versatility department, and it isn't even close.

[@Reybakk]

Agree. Much of Wizard's power is their SPELL list. NOT the fact they can swap their spells during a long rest, lmao. Druids and Clerics can do this as well. Of course, Bards will be weaker in wizardy things than wizards. But add on top of Magical Secrets Bard's features(features that Wizard almost no due to powerful SPELLS) and charisma as the main attribute... At the very least it looks weird

[@DonaldErnst-eq1ik]

I'll probably be the first person to disagree with you on magical secrets, but I'll propose just houseruling around it and allowing bards to choose any three spell lists instead of being locked to wizard-cleric-druid.

[@InsightCheck]

To each their own :) The way that it is right now basically just locks you out of the half caster lists and Sorcerer. I’m ok with the move, but it’s totally up to you!

[@dabeef2112]

Personally I think this is a good change especially not allowing the 1/2 caster list. The various Paladin Smite spells and spells like Swift Quiver shouldn't be available to the Bard several levels earlier than for their home class and for the smite spells they work better on the bard because you have both more and higher level spell slots to use.

[@InsightCheck]

@dabeef2112 this is my perspective as well. I prefer the way they’ve done it.

[@DavidAndrews-eb7gm]

Sorcerer? So no Chaos Bolt then. Is anyone truly bent out of shape about this? Seriously, not having access to a few niche spells is fine. Paladin casts Circle of Power which is cool and a very Paladin thing to do. Saves the bard from casting Wall of Force as an arguably better protective measure. Paladin casts Destructive Wave. Impressive my shiny brother. Bard upcasts Spiritual Guardians at level 5 and wreaks havoc on the survivors round after round. Same is true for the warlock and ranger. Let them have their creepy/hippie fun. It’s fine.

[@malmasterson3890]

​@@dabeef2112Exactly, the whole point was to make it so Bard doesn't step on the non Full Casters & the Sorcerer list is diet Wizard anyway, so any unique spells they do get should be allowed to feel special.

[@shadowmancer99]

1. I think it was a huge miss that they didnt go with the UA fix to Inspiration. From what I could tell, it was universally preferred, and it again shows how much Jeremy lies like a dog when he speaks about how they ran and evaulated the playtest material. (Note: Same issue with the new Stunning Strike, cause there people were at least reasonably content with getting some damage, now its objectively even worst than even that...hence tossing.) 2. Getting Rid of Song of Rest is just silly and dumb. It was a good feature to help low level survivability, and I think its a shame that they tossed it. Maybe I'll just give it back to em. 3. Magical Secrets. I like the expanded use of it, but limiting the spells available, no. What Bards can find their way into learning Wizards tricks, which in lore are people who are highly secretative, but Paladins (who tend to be a lot more open) and unavailable? Its another dumb restriction placed solely cause people have it in their head that they MUST make something worst if you are going to make something better. I'll just let bards learn whatever spell they want. If they can get wish, I have no issue with them getting Eldridge Blast. 4. I think the College of Dance, while quite powerful, is EATING the Monk's lunch. Its not just that it allows for all the base features of a Monk, ie Unarmored Defense AND Unarmed Strikes, but as we just talked about, is a FULL Spellcaster. I see this subclass in a lot of ways a superior Monk, given that if you wanted to, you could focus on Touch Spells and then really make an Iron Fist type character. The Monk Subclasses are pretty weak, which is my main problem with the Class. As a main Class, Monks do get some nice base abilities, so as a chassis its not bad....then you try to put the Subclass engine in it, and its just terrible. (For instance the moronic change to Quivering Palm....why???? So it could in theory kill one enemy....again overblowing a non issue...) The other subclasses here dont interest me much. In a vaccum, I like the Dance subclass, but knowing the Monk Exists, it seems like a bad call/design as they just face lifted too much. I would have rathered the Dance be more, Dance of Seduction where it could charm enemies, or such.

[@shadowmancer99]

But one combo that I could see be fun, again you'd have to tweak some things, is College Dance Bard, allow them to use Magical Secrets to get Paladin Smite Spell, and maybe the other Smite Spells, and then I think you really COULD go all Iron Fist....I mean, you could dip in Paladin for a level to do the same thing, but I dont really think it should be necessary to do so.... I also highly recommend folks not tie AIS/Feats to class progression, but make it Character Progression. I know for mine, I give both Feats at 3 levels, and AIS at 4ths, but both arent tied to Class.....its how 3.5 did it...and seems way more fun and customizable and a lot less limiting....

[@malmasterson3890]

I pretty much disagree with everything you bring up, so this should be interesting. 1. I distinctly remember the response to reaction Bardic being mixed overall. I didn't hate the change, but going with this one instead where now not only are there options to get more Bardic, but it lasts longer and doesn't need to be heard offers many more options for flavor. Also, the new Stunning Strike is incredibly powerful, I don't know what you're smoking. 2. I don't neccessarily disagree with this so much as I don't care. It rarely mattered in my own games and was far from the most interesting feature. Getting Expertise a level earlier instead was good imo & Full Casters shouldn't have so many features anyway. 3. Ridiculous. It's not about just limiting the Bard's option, it's about preserving the identity of Half-Casters & Warlock. The fact that in 5e they can often become obsolete because a Bard will get their goodies faster & have far more slots is ridiculous and was by far my favorite change they made to the class, so I literally couldn't disagree more on this one. I hope they give the half Casters more cool spells that Bard can't steal now. It also allows homebrewers to make new classes & spells for them without worrying about the possibility of a high level Bard breaking them. 4. Dance Bard hardly steps on the Monk at all, it's terrible at filling it's role. Really Dance Bard is more valuable for it's support features than the ones it is mirroring from Monk. It's still a better class overall than Monk because it is a Full Caster, but that was always the case especially since Monk was dead last in 5e. Also, what an arbitrary feature to complain about with Monk subclasses, of course they're gonna remove a feature that can just instakill a creature, it was bad game design. The Monk received by far the most buffs of any class in the game all over the place and yet you still find something to complain about. Just being pessimistic at that point.

[@MrSeals1000]

I don't think we saw/read the same video and article about the new monk. The subclasses bring a ton of power to an already much improved monk. And unlike in the playtest with the first version of the monk, the dance bard can hardly be compared lol the bard has a bit of tricks that mimick the style, and brings some fun tricks for the bard to make plenty of use of. But it ain't got nothing on the new monk, so theres no need to worry about it eating the monks lunch.

[@shadowmancer99]

@@malmasterson3890 No the bar on the Monk was INCREDIBLY low. It was the worst class in the game mechanically and the buffs, are only puttting to a base of 2014 classes and still lower than all but Ranger. They had 1 main good feature, and 1 really good subclass feature (QP) and that's about it. Sorry. But that's fine, I think its still weak, and they missed several opportunities to do better. I fully acknowledge its better than it was, but again, NOT good enough. As for the spells thing, again, much ado about nothing....man what kind of tables do you all play at...lol.

[@shadowmancer99]

@@MrSeals1000 So Dance get unarmed strikes, Evasion, (thought extra attack but not sure), Improving Init, and full spell casting and with Bardic Inspiration, helps with Saves and such (among other checks), so ya, and Unarmored Defense. I mean I think you would be surprised by how well this could do monk's job but better....lol. Then again, maybe I'll be wrong. Its possible.

[@CivilWarMan]

I was massively disappointed with the Bard reveal. It's not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but compared to the potential of the last Bard playtest it's incredibly flat and uninteresting, little more than just the 2014 Bard with some quality of life tweaks for the first 10 levels, aka the entirety of the Bard's career for the large majority of campaigns. The last playtest Bard gave players the ability to customize their Bards by having separate Arcane, Divine, and Primal paths that greatly impacted which spells the Bard has access to, giving the class a level of customization on par with the Warlock. The response to that Bard was so massively popular that JC commented that the class no longer needed any more public playtesting because the feedback was so universally positive. Then they changed spell lists in a way that completely broke that version of Bard, and after almost a year of silence they give us a version of the class with the most distinctive feature of that playtest completely removed and the first 10 levels of the class basically being just the old Bard with a duration buff to Inspiration and a Countercharm that's actually decent. If they had given the Bards a small core of quintessential Bard spells (charms, illusions, hypnotic pattern, etc), and a choice between Arcane, Divine, and Primal paths that combine with it to give them their complete spell list, I'd have been stoked. But so little of the overall design of the class has changed that I can't justify the expense of getting all new books instead of just continuing to use the old books and just homebrewing in the 2024 changes to the classes that I do like.

[@dyegoeduardosantossilva3659]

You think making you choose between primal, arcane and divine is better than just letting you choose any spell from any of the lists that signify those three types of magic?

[@CivilWarMan]

@@dyegoeduardosantossilva3659 Being able to customize your Bard by choosing between Primal, Arcane, and Divine paths at level 1, then eventually expanding that choice with Magical Secrets if the campaign makes it to level 10, versus every Bard having a single static spell list until level 10? Absolutely. In the multiple 5E campaigns I've played in, do you know how many times I would have been able to take advantage of this Magical Secrets if I played a Bard? Zero. The highest level campaign I played in stopped at level 9. Official published campaigns tend to end around level 10-15. Many end earlier, almost none end later. By the time Bards even reach the level where they can start getting Magical Secrets, the campaign is either already over or is about to end.

[@dyegoeduardosantossilva3659]

@@CivilWarMan oh I get it. Didn't think about that I haven't played too much DnD yet, didn't even finished a campaign, so I look at it in a more broad perspective considering your growth all the way through But yeah, I can understand you

[@elementzero3379]

​@@CivilWarManI wish you luck in finding a longer lasting campaign. This new Magical Secrets is incredible.