The 7th Age of Middle Earth

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[@genlob]

I dreamt, back in my teenage years, that the Barrow Downs had been found and were being excavated. I remember the thrill I felt in the dream that the stories were real, even after I woke.

[@alexswanson753]

Sounds like an enviable dream tbh.

[@jameskent5347]

@@alexswanson753I agree

[@karal_the_crazy]

My dream was that Santa was too fat to get into bag end

[@saphcal]

i love dreams like that.

[@taowroland8697]

Look into the thousands of burial mounds that were unearthed across the U.S. when farmers started spreading across the country. Apparently, dozens were unburied containing "tall men with red hair". In fact a tribe of native americans in nevada has a legend about a war with said tall men with red hair from thousands of years ago, and a museum on that reservation has multiple skulls and skeletons of said tall men with red hair. Crazy rabbit hole to get into.

[@diaryofanaddict9637]

Tolkien was right when he said that Hobbits as a people still live on to this day. I paint cottages in Gloucestershire and occasionally work with this electrician (Sparkie Mark), and with the way he speaks and his mannerisms, I swear he is a direct descendant from the Hobbit folk.

[@PunchKickBlog]

Sparkie Mark 😂😂😂

[@universalflamethrower6342]

I see you met the old Sparkfoot

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

@@universalflamethrower6342SparkFEET! 😂

[@farmergiles1065]

I would make a conjecture that he is descended from Pippin (Peregrin Took), who, perhaps mischievously (though not of ill will), "inherited" somewhat from Frodo, namely some secrets about fireworks left behind by Gandalf when he departed Middle Earth, for the continued enjoyment of the hobbits. Does it not spark the imagination?

[@diaryofanaddict9637]

@farmergiles1065 you have no idea how much I appreciate that comment.

[@kaptcha]

"...we, too, are part of the great tale that never ends." Love how you take such beautiful stories and themes devised by Tolkien, sum them up, and convey them so eloquently. Excellent video!

[@WhiteOwlOnFire_XXX]

Yes, we’ll said. Haven’t heard anyone use eloquently in a extremely long time.

[@IngoSchwarze]

"That never ends" is a bold prediction to make, though. Sure, the roughly 5 to 8 billion years that Arda may still exist are long compared to the thousands or maybe ten thousands of years of Arda in the legendarium, or the hundred thousands or maybe millions of years of real-life existence of humankind, but there can't be any doubt that the existence of Arda is _finite_ in time. That doesn't necessarily mean that terrestrial life will end with the destruction of the earth - but claiming that humankind will definitely outlive Arda would be an even bolder claim to make...

[@RingsLoreMaster]

Ever since I first saw one of Robert's videos I believed that he is or was a professor. He seems to have an endless source of knowledge and he clearly does a great deal of research and does it very well. Putting together various authorities on a particular subject is not an easy task, indeed it is an art

[@john.premose]

We are in the "sickth" age, as this narrator keeps repeating over and over.

[@TheVigilantStewards]

I agree, that touched me

[@Strideo1]

"Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?' 'A man may do both,' said Aragorn. 'For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"

[@3jasonwebb]

That is absolutely essential to understand Tolkien. Legend and Everyday Life were not opposites. The Legends came true in Christ, and we've been living in a Legend ever since.

[@licmir3663]

As a Brazilian and thus Latino, I never felt the need to see a Latino character in LotR’s TV shows and films. I understand that Tolkien was writing about his English world. The same reason that he never tried to write about whatever was happening to the east and south of Middle-earth: others were writing tales about those places. It didn’t belong to him. Nevertheless, it’s undeniable that he touched on values and ideas that are dear to everyone: faith, honor, trust, friendship, loyalty, and love.

[@04nbod]

I think its better understood that Tolkien was writing about the world from an English Perspective. So not just England but Europe as well. In the First Age the Men are essentially Northern Europeans (blond, tall, germanic types of the House of Hador) and Southern Europeans (shorter, dark haired, darker toned skin Med types of the House of Beor). He gives an English view of the world that made them. The English are ASNAC. Anglo Saxon, Norse and Celtic. If you look at Middle Earth you see all three (and a bit of the Roman Empire) represented in it.

[@Darkstar-se6wc]

Well said! I have no need to see A Thousand And One Nights or The Romance Of The Three Kingdoms done with blonde haired, green eyed, characters to identify with them and enjoy the story. It just goes to show that the current trend is all about erasure, not representation.

[@adamdavis1648]

​@@Darkstar-se6wcMost movies and shows that add non-white characters to a franchise or change white ones to non-white ones still leave in plenty of white characters and even add new ones. How is that erasure? Anyway, what it's really about is making money.

[@Spankerdig1]

His universe was from the Nordic mythology. It was not an english world.

[@04nbod]

@@Spankerdig1 'Nordic Mythology' is Germanic. The Saxons worshipped Thor, they called him Thunor, its why Thursday is Thursday. During the Saxon era a lot of England came under the Danelaw and the Danes ruled England for a little while.

[@patrickb1303]

Tolkien understood that the battle against darkness never ends.

[@Pixis1]

"We, too, are part of the great tale that never ends." That line gave me chills. Well done. This was a great summation of everything we know of Tolkien's ages of the world and their links to real life history and theology.

[@TheMuskokaman]

“And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.”

[@TechBearSeattle]

Many years ago, a friend wrote some fan fiction about a gold ring found in an outcropping of igneous rock in a cave in Switzerland. It's discovery activated nine other ancient rings found in museums around the world. Morgoth and Sauron, ainur from beyond Arda, were no more: but the Nine were Men, and their souls were bound to this realm. The Witch King now claimed the One Ring. Alatar, one of the Blue Wizards and the last of the Istari still in Middle Earth, was instructed to assemble another fellowship of human and fae (elves, hobbits, and dwarves) to destroy the Ring once and for all. This all happened recently, at the end of the Sixth Age. I don't think the story ever got much past the outline stage, but I think it is a really interesting premise.

[@meganofsherwood3665]

That is a fantastic premise and I am all-aboard this fanfic train!

[@Justin-jr6ny]

“We too, are part of the great tale that never ends.” Pure poetry, thank you 💚

[@GreyVested]

I feel reminded of commentary by scholars about how surviving knowledge about Norse mythology has been colored by Christian influences. It feels like it makes sense that Tolkien would therefore present a bespoke European-style mythology as having a similar influence.

[@universalflamethrower6342]

If it wasn't for Christians writing down Norse Mythology very little would be preserved of it. Moreover Norse Mythology and Christian Mythology cross over.

[@guyr3618]

It's great that Christians wrote down Norse mythology. I wish they wouldn't have made any changes to it, though.

[@universalflamethrower6342]

@@guyr3618 Be grateful that there is something. And if you want to live in myth you have to act accordingly, complaining on the internet certainly won't get you there because you self-define as a consumer under the yoke of someone else.

[@hircenedaelen]

@@universalflamethrower6342 what the hell is your problem

[@universalflamethrower6342]

@@hircenedaelen I will put it in nicer words. The world is every bit as magical as the old world, the story had just progressed a little bit further and things are more subtle now so you have to see the old magic in the little things, the things that often get drowned in noise and ego. So maybe we should just have more patience with each other. God bless you.

[@jarrodcarver9001]

This is the first time I noticed the script was written by someone else (Matthew Theriault). Now I'm going back to past videos to see who wrote it.

[@oKyeahThen]

Word me too bro 😎 I noticed his writing and how he definitely is in tune with lord of the rings mythos

[@NaishoTheNeko]

One thing that I was always told was this. Tolkien wanted to write a mythology for the people of his country. So I am protective of his story just as I am about any culture's mythology and folk tales.

[@nkanyezihlatshwayo3601]

This:) I think thing that people don’t touch on enough about, because it is necessarily subjective, is of the fact that he actually manages to pull this off - of which I’m convinced, and how amazing of a feat that is. It’s the text, and para-text, and _us_-‘edness that he reaches for. Reminds you of the feeling of story as a weft of cloth, the fact and the feeling. And that we live in it, you know

[@Hero_Of_Old]

Sadly, its being destroyed again like the English tales Tolkien felt were destroyed through invasion.

[@uamsnof]

@@Hero_Of_Oldwhat, who is burning Tolkien’s Books?!

[@adventussaxonum448]

​@@uamsnof You've not seen Rings of Power? Obviously, the actual books are safe......for now.

[@uamsnof]

@@adventussaxonum448 I get what you mean, but the show isn’t replacing the books like Christianity replaced most knowledge of pre-Christian pagan mythology in England, which is exactly why Tolkien created his own mythology in the first place.

[@DMIwriter]

This has helped me elucidate something I've been thinking about regarding Tolkien's work for a while. In modernity's sea of "complex and morally ambiguous" stories and characters, Middle Earth stands out. The good guys are good and the bad guys are bad. I've always wondered how Tolkien managed to tell such a compelling story when he worked with such clear cut morality. You know going into it that good is going to win and evil is going to fail simply based on the type of storytelling Tolkien uses. Yet, even knowing the outcome from relatively early on, it's compelling in a way that I think many others have failed at attempting to replicate. And I think it comes down to the stakes. The stakes aren't whether or not good will win. We know good will win. The stakes are what it will cost and what will have to be sacrificed in order to win. You end the story with a great victory, but a lot of damaged people. Yet, not damaged in the modern sense. In modern stories, these damaged heroes would be sad and lacking. Tolkien's damaged heroes are damaged in a manner that almost makes them more whole. And I think that kind of storytelling can only come out of a deeply held redemptive worldview like his.

[@mtcelticharper]

Superbly stated.

[@localneo-graphic4647]

Who said Sauron and Morgoth were evil? The victors? You saw the video, history is written by the victors, so of course they will say Sauron, Morgoth, orcs, Balrogs, the Nazgul, and all those folk were 'evil', when it truth they simply had goals and values that couldn't be reconciled with the 'heroes'.

[@parkaparid7549]

@@localneo-graphic4647 🤮

[@MonlopoMAN]

@@localneo-graphic4647 this comment was written by George RR Martin

[@JushuaProvido]

DMIwriter, I'm flagging your comment... ... for awesomeness, eloquence, and intelligence.

[@juanro343]

As a Catholic, it is hard to feel as belonging to any place, but Tolkien stories give me courage and encourage me to connect with and be thankful of my heritage.

[@universalflamethrower6342]

The Church still exists although the apostacy is great. Tolkien gave us an anker in the storm a light to guide us back to where we belong. A way to connect to the story of the Bible like few others have done in the 20th century. It is our task to keep the faith and carry each other through the land of Mordor...

[@absurdist5134]

@@universalflamethrower6342 Unless that can translate to being kind to the vulnerable I wouldn't stress over it.

[@recursiveslacker7730]

It’s honestly one of the finest pieces of literature with obvious and heavy Catholic influence, even if you count stories that are explicitly Christian like Paradise Lost and The Divine Comedy. It owes a lot of the other things that make it compelling to pre-Christian European mythology, primarily in the worldbuilding, but the themes, morals, and lessons of the book were straight from the deepest part of his heart where his Catholicism-informed moral center was.

[@TheYopogo]

Catholicism is the largest denomination of Christianity by a long way, and Christianity has more adherents than it ever has in history, and growing. And is therefore both the largest faith group in our contemporary world, and the largest religion of all time. How can you possibly not feel as belonging to any place?

[@jvercouillie]

@juanro @universalflamethrower6342 exactly the way I feel it

[@courtredhanded]

The end of this was so uplifting and inspiring. Makes me feel even closer to Tolkiens world and characters

[@KorriTimigan]

I genuinely think this is your finest video yet, Robert. There's something very moving about how you've chosen to discuss this topic, one really gets a sense of how important Middle-earth and its history was to Tolkien, and how he entwined it with his deepest held beliefs. Thank you for this.

[@secretagent86]

Well said. Agree!

[@TheVigilantStewards]

I agree, I found this video deeply moving

[@Alpvagabund]

This was fantastic. I have always thought the mythology of Middle Earth to be, in effect, Christianity by a different name. My father read Tolkien’s books to me as a young kid, and it is part of what inspired me to pursue learning languages, mythology, and anthropology later on. Starting with The Hobbit and finishing at the end of the main story with the final chapter of the Silmarillion, where you hear about Eru‘s prophesied return, is one of the most insightful, awe-inspiring experiences that I have had. It ties together the world that you have been longing for since you were a small child and the world in which you live in a very comforting way.

[@albyj3310]

In On Fairy-Stories, he explains his motivations more clearly, mythology being the human desire for the supernatural and for the “Eucatastrophe” (the joyful happy ending in the face of hopelessness) and Christ being the true fulfillment of human mythology. Thus the theology behind his work validates his art and makes it true and meaningful because it is based on the myth come true, the real Eucatastrophe or something like that. I’ve read the essay like 3-4 times and am still trying to understand it

[@2malachi]

Which christ?

[@SemiOmni314]

@@2malachi There's literally only one Christ that you could think of when discussing Tolkien.

[@2malachi]

@@SemiOmni314 Christians can only think of one. But there's going to another man, similar to Yehoshua in many ways, but rather than God's grace, the other anointed man will be the instrument of God's vengeance.

[@giannixx]

My take on the Arda-Earth chronology (according to Tolkien's estimate on 4:10. For simplicity I'm pretending we're in 2000 AD): Units used: VY = Valian Year. 1 VY is equal to around 9.582 solar years. 1 Vhour is equal to 7 hours, and a VY has 1k Vdays, which are comprised of 12 Vhours each. I'm considering the length of a year 365.25 days and a day 24 hours. YT = Years of the Trees. They are apparently the same as the VYs, but I used an equivalence of 10 years per YT, not 9.582 because of a statement by the Tolkien Estate that Túrin dies in YS 499, 5000 years after the awakening of the Elves. But doing the calculations using 9.582 gives 4810.9 years between YT 1050 and YS 499. The maths does check out, however, if we use the 10:1 ratio, but for that I also used Turin's death as 500 YS, not 499, otherwise it doesn't work. Sue me. FA, SA, TA, FoA, FiA, SiA, SeA = 1st Age, 2nd Age, 3rd Age, 4th Age, 5th Age, 6th Age, 7th Age. BCE = Before Common Era, the same as Before Christ. ya, kya = Years Ago, Kilo (thousand) Years Ago. As far as I know it is impossible to calculate the age of Arda since we don't know how much time passes between the formation of Arda and the descent of the Ainur. Tom Bombadill is apparently as old as Arda, so his age is also impossible to figure out. The nameless things were also there before the coming of the Valar. 1 VY = 62,567ya - The Ainur descend into Arda. ~2355 VY = 40,000ya - Neanderthals go extinct. 3500 VY = 1 YT = 29,030ya - The Valar settle in Aman. Yavanna creates the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion. 1050 YT (1 FA) = 18,530ya (16,530 BCE) - Awakening of the Elves. 1362 YT (3120 FA) = 15,410ya (13,410 BCE) - Galadriel is born. 1500 YT = 1 YS (~4500 FA) = 14,030ya (12,030 BCE) - The Sun and the Moon are created. Awakening of the race of Men. (I suppose the previous members of _Homo_ were prototypes). 500 YS (5000 FA) = 13,530ya (11,530 BCE) - Túrin dies 5ky after the awakening of the Elves. 590 YS (5090 FA) = 13,441ya (11,441 BCE) - Defeat of Morgoth and end of the First Age. Actual start of the Younger Dryas at the end of the Last Glacial Period. With the banishment of Morgoth, the world average temperature will gradually raise to levels more suitable for the prosperity of man. 1 SA = 13,440ya (11,440 BCE) - Foundation of the Grey Havens under Círdan, and Lindon, the Ñoldorin Kingdom under Gil-galad. In Near Harad, the Natufian culture is in its middle period. 1740 SA = 11700ya (9700 BCE) - Start of the Holocene epoch. 1940 SA = 11500ya (9500 BCE) - Around this time, Göbekli Tepe starts being built Southeast of Khand. For reference, this happens during the reign of Tar-Ciryatan, the twelfth King of Númenor. 3441 SA/1 TA = ~10kya (8000 BCE) - Isildur defeats Sauron at the War of the Last Alliance. Göbekli Tepe is abandoned around this time. ~2000 TA = ~8kya (6000 BCE) - Jiahu Symbols in present day China. In 2002 TA, Minas Ithil falls, becomes Minas Morgul. Minas Anor is renamed Minas Tirith. In 2050, the line of kings fails in Gondor. The rule of the Stewards of Gondor begins. Since China is so distant, there is little to no contact between it and the West. 3019 TA = ~6kya (4000 BCE) - Fall of Barad-dûr. Proto-Cuneiform in Mesopotamia, Southeast of Khand. Their distance to the events recorded in the Red Book made any folk memory eventually recorded in clay tablets highly distorted and inaccurate. 120 FoA = ~5878ya (3878 BCE) - Death of Aragorn. Gondor's gradual decline starts here. 220 FoA = ~5778ya (3778 BCE) - The New Shadow. Gondor is a corrupt and declining State. After the vanishing of the elves, dwarves start fading away as the Age of Man takes further roots. It is possible that epidemics and other disasters reduce Human numbers in the West at or not long after this time. Many arts are lost to time and men after this point know only how to use copper. Start of the Chalcolithic Dark Ages. The ruins of the great kingdoms of the past will erode and be regarded as megalithic sites by future archaeologists. 498 FoA = 5500ya (3500 BCE) - Start of migrations from the East. The Easterlings (Indo-Europeans) appear to be distant relatives of the Rohirrim, Beornings and Men of Dale. Writing at this point has been largely forgotten because of widespread societal decline. The Easterlings will mix with the native populations peacefully as well as conquer them in war, such is the nature of man. The DNA of the descendants of Númenor will be diluted and lifespan will steadly decrease. The last remnants of the Tengwar script that survived to our age are recorded, very simplified, in the form of the Vinča symbols. 698 FoA = 5300ya (3300 BCE) - First known signs of the Yamnaya culture. 898 FoA = 5100ya (3100 BCE) - Egypt is unified under the First Dynasty. These peoples show some resemblance to the Númenóreans in language and architecture, and would come to build magnificent structures as they did before. They might therefore be descendant from, or influenced by, the Black Númenóreans of Umbar, or even descendants of southern Gondoreans. 998 FoA = 5kya (3000 BCE) - First known signs of the Corded Ware culture. The European Bronze Age begins around this time. Unrecorded start of the Fifth Age. For simplicity we can say the Fourth Age lasted 1000 years and put the start of the Fifth at 2998 BCE. 400 FiA = 4600ya (2600 BCE) - Around this time the Great Pyramid of Giza is being built. 1800 FiA = 3200ya (1200 BCE) - Start of the Bronze Age collapse and of the Greek Dark Ages. If the blood of Númenor still manifested in some blessed individuals, that would happen no further than this. The last great men would be regarded in the following centuries as Nephilim by the Hebrews and as demigods and heroes by the Greeks. Around this time the Trojan War occurs and the invasions of the Sea Peoples begin. 2250 FiA = 2750ya (750 BCE) - Around this time, writing re-enters Europe as the Greeks adapt the Phoenician script to their own language. Start of the Sixth Age. 200 SiA = ~2550ya (550 BCE) - Around this time, Eru Illúvatar starts to send higher spirits down to Arda, either Valar or Maiar, to guide humanity as the Istari once were supposed to. The first one is born under the name of Kong Fuzi, known in the West as Confucius. 250 SiA = ~2500ya (500 BCE) - The second master is born as Siddhartha Gautama, known in the West as the Buddha. 750 SiA = ~2000ya - Around this time the third is born as Yehoshuaʿ, known in the West as Jesus. Start of the Seventh Age. 1891 SeA = ~109ya (1914 AD) - Around this time J. R. R. Tolkien finds the stories recorded on the Red Book. How he was able to translate them, and whose source they came from, is unknown, maybe from a merry fellow out there.

[@istari0]

That's an impressive piece of writing there but I think Tolkien's intent was to place all events in the Legendarium, including the early 4th Age ones, before the rise of any of our historical civilizations. Sumer was founded about 4000 B.C. so I think the 4th Age would have had to end sometime before that.

[@giannixx]

@@istari0 Thanks! And yeah, I went for a more historical approach, and I considered that it is only really important to have a civilizational gap in Europe after the fourth age. Besides, in that letter Tolkien said he considered the fall of Barad-Dûr to have happened about 6kya (so, 4k bc). And we need at least 220 years after that bc it's when The New Shadow takes place. I don't know how much our knowledge advanced in that regard to say how accurate Tolkien was and cared to be with the dates. Even in that letter he gives an estimate, so I think the general time period matters more than the specific number. And since it ultimately isn't our Earth, it's impossible to match geography and history perfectly. What I realized when writing this chronology is that the Indo-European part has some inconsistencies, for example the Rohirim speaking Old English millennia before the Germanic languages even split. Also, if the peoples related to the Rohirim and the Gondoreans are supposed to be pre-European, they should be black or at least brown skin. But again, I don't know if Tolkien could've known that. Well, the people of Gondor (at least the descendants of the Númenóreans, as there probably was some mixing with the local populations) come from his take on Atlantis, so I think it's fair enough if they are white. Now, if they are supposed to be Europeans, as the Rohirim language would suggest, they're far too early. I did it for fun, it doesn't need to be super accurate even because that's not possible, but it's fun to try and match the real world events with the ones from the Legendarium.

[@Tacklepig]

"The last great men would be regarded in the following centuries as Nephilim by the Hebrews and as demigods and heroes by the Greeks." This I take some issue with. The similarities Tolkien's stories have to real world mythologies - among them those tales of demigods and heroes, though admittedly more from the norse than the greek realm - and the name similarities to those figures, to me would imply that these mythologies are corrupted retellings of the history of previous ages, rather than the tales of great men in the later ages.

[@eric2500]

Elegantly and well done.

[@eric2500]

This was fun, so you did what you set out to do! *My quibble would be only that you did not include enough touchpoints from British and pan- European myths and stories* such as King Arthur (he's kind of Aragorn like!) the coming of the Celt Iberians to Ireland, the landing Aneas and or Joseph of Arimathea, the heroic cycles of the Norse and the Finns, and of course legendary founding mother Europa riding her lover/god/bull. @@giannixx

[@Secunda-xt2yx]

Wonderful video, Robert! The sentiment expressed at the end is profoundly moving. The great tale goes ever on! What a privilege it is for each of us to be a part of it.

[@themasterofmiddle-earth]

It only takes a genius like Tolkien to truly weave a fantasy story into the beliefs of the church so flawlessly and cleverly using details from the bible. Incredible. Thank you for this video. 💛

[@guyr3618]

The tale of Andreth really should have been included in the published Silmarillion, it adds so much depth to so many elements in it.

[@04nbod]

I don't understand why Christopher did not include the finished Appendices. There are a few that were published at the end of HoME. Its extremely important for the second age too. The House of Hador does not accept their mortality and believe it to be a curse. Fast forward to Numenor and the King's Men who are the The House of Hador in the main and The Faithful who are the Beorians, found by Finrod. Elendil would wear his ring as he leaves the doomed island

[@guyr3618]

@@04nbod And Andreth & Aegnor are such a great parallel to Beren & Luthien, too. A great "path not taken" there.

[@TETASARAIVACS]

I have a “theory” (or more than one) about the geological changes of Middle Earth in which (1) the mountain ranges that we see in the maps are basically the remains of the Two Lamps, and (2) all up to the Third Age happened in a “pre-Pangea” time. Tolkien did say that the geography of Middle Earth passed through many drastic changes since the end of the Third Age The map of Middle Earth by the end of the Third Age kind of fits in the _northwesternmost_ part of the map of the Pangea (google it) PS: the pillars of the Two Lamps are clearly visible on both the maps of Beleriand and of the Third Age. PPS: Pangea is the initial state of the continents before they split 😁

[@Lightningchase1973]

It would still fit the west coast of the US, particularly southern US. (the same place, now).

[@ThommyofThenn]

It's so interesting to see his more overtly religious work. I should like to read that book of his correspondence

[@Jim-Mc]

The Catholic scholar Peter Kreeft has done some great analysis of Tolkien along these lines.

[@ThommyofThenn]

@@Jim-Mc Thanks a lot. I'll look him up

[@MeanBeanComedy]

​@@ThommyofThenn I can't recommend him enough! 😎👍🏻

[@MerkhVision]

“We too, are part of that great tale, that never ends.” What a great way to bring it all together! That’s profound!

[@SmoothSatire]

This is wonderful, you are so well researched; in both the scripture and Christian theology and in the writings and potential thoughts of Tolkien. Thank you for the light you bring to the beautiful dark niches of such great writings with so much clarity and detail.

[@matrix-5466]

I always enjoyed how Tolkien included God as the creator of middle earth, and Morgoth as Satan by another name. If you read about the creation of the universe in the books, it is almost identical to the creation story, which is a great reference to Tolkiens beliefs.

[@jimmycher45]

I would watch the Lotr movies at my Church (extended and in one sitting) and my pastor would show us the similarities of lotr and Christian Theology. I thought the comparison was nit picky, and coincidental. But even as I read the Lotr, and the Silmarillion today, I can see the parts where Tolkien put that idea in there. Very interesting to me.

[@blazednlovinit]

Sounds like a cool Church :)

[@thenerdfaraway]

Your respect and admiration of Tolkien is clearly represented here. Well-done, as always! It would seem that Tolkien would encourage us to think on the good and the beautiful.

[@indio4-215]

Well, if Tolkien himself, a WWI veteran who no doubt saw and experienced some traumatizing stuff during said war, can do it, then so can we. I know I do and will continue to do so for the rest of my life, however long said life lasts.

[@chardaskie]

These comments are so wholesome. I love this community.

[@joespeigle1240]

That was deep. Deeper than a Balrog's resting place

[@the_real_littlepinkhousefly]

I love this so much! I have always had a deep wish that Tolkien's world really existed and that we are just several ages beyond. And as a Christian myself, I love how he wove that in, in his own thinking (and also echo that the stories are for everyone, and I'm so glad they're not direct allegory). In my own head-canon all this is true. Thank you for this video. I think it's my favorite of all you have done.

[@nonplayercharacter596]

Let's get real: A Song of Ice and Fire is nothing compared to Tolkien.

[@decegrease]

dude i don't think ASOIAF is better than Elder Scrolls wider lore, like the 90% of wider lore not explored in the games (esp pre Skyrim). call me crazy but idc

[@papabird4425]

Well, there's a reason that it's popular. It sucks. 😅

[@RSpracticalshooting]

It's just a political drama steeped in some mild fantasy.

[@Meritania]

⁠@@decegreaseit’s interesting to me that as the ages unfolds, Arda becomes more realistic and akin to our world. Tamriel becomes more strange and esoteric.

[@decegrease]

@@Meritania true, you go from already weird current time Tamriel to Dunmer moon colonies in the 6th era 😂

[@fredblonder7850]

This reminds me of L. Frank Baum’s insistence that OZ was a real world that existed in parallel with our own, and that he was merely relating the events which occurred there, as related to him via some sort of mysterious radio that he never explained.

[@paulsarnik8506]

Or the Counter Earth GOR! 😎🤓✌🏻

[@john.premose]

Except Tolkien was more insidious with inserting his religionism into things. He used a form of reverence and awe and flattering speech for entities that he deemed "higher"than us mere "mortals". He was insidiously anti-modern. Which is what makes him dangerous in my view, because fanatics and reactionaries cling to him.

[@john.premose]

​@@jlh6688I don't. I find that kind of essentialism to be backwards and medieval, and leads to all sorts of oppressive thinking, in subtle ways. It's also false, and tries to deny anything new or different. I would flee from that kind of thinking.

[@_Dovar_]

​@@john.premose The leftists spread everywhere, it seems...

[@davidhimmelfahrt3732]

@@john.premose Tolkien is as modern as you can get. Transhumanism is not more complex than humanism.

[@joshkolchins7753]

Bravo, Robert! What a lovely and well-stated analysis. Your channel is the best of the Tolkien sites on KZbin.

[@xxZitroxx]

Id like to recommend tolkienuntangled too. A little dofferent (and often longer) bit on the same level imo.

[@joshuafroughton4171]

Keep finding lotr stuff to make vides about. I need them to survive❤

[@Turnoutburndown]

The best part about this channel is the ability to always bring it around and make the video so much bigger than you expected. "Bet they didn't see the ending where THEY are part of LoTR coming!"

[@drosprey]

Excellent video! I have never heard of Tolkien's 7th age before this!

[@Randulaith]

That was the best deep dive in Tolkiens world ever! My mind is stuffed with unexplainable masses of information and knowledge on our planet and passed time, for I am researching the history of ancient earth, paranormal things, spirituality and God for decades now, and as weird as it might sound: It is definitely not unthinkable! But this spark of this perspective never reached my mind so far. How utterly inspiring! Thank you! You just made my YEAR! Btw, WE are going to become orcs, if we aren't realising soon, what is happening right now..

[@janiceleeripley443]

Thank you, I have been thinking about these things since I first read the book in 1970. Tolkien has such depth and far reaching insights into the nature of life and such scholarly integrity, that his work is still unfolding for so many of us.

[@d26k164]

This was very good. Thank you Robert!

[@Roadyheid]

I have to finally drop a note to say that I have loved all your Middle Earth content. As a life-long Tolkien fan, I appreciate every one of your videos. Thank you.

[@RogerTheil]

Tolkien holds true to his original intent for LOTR, even in all of the peripheral narrative material; He was writing a new mythic history for the Anglosphere. This is likely why he was downright offended when people called his books allegories. He's not saying these stories mirror or represent our own, they are our own! This is also why, although occasionally off-putting to narrative scholars, the subtle Christian subtext throughout the LOTR lore actually fits like a glove! Whether the particulars and their namesakes of LOTR actually happened exactly the way it's narrated doesn't matter as much as the truths it reveals about our story as a people. Exactly like how theological disagreements matter very little in the context of how much Christianity and its message has been a part of our story. It matters little if Hobbits really are 3 feet tall and come from Hobbiton or not, what Hobbits represent is true and eternal, and there are still Hobbits today. Tolkien himself identified them as the rural English layfolk. And by that description, there are also a TON in Anglo America. It matters little whether you believe in the particulars of Christianity, its message reveals truths that are eternal and have had a fundamental impact on us and our history. That's why it makes PERFECT sense for Tolkien to tie BOTH the LOTR and Christian lore into our OWN history and world. Because they are. LOTR is not only a household name and an utter Classic with an uncontested spot in our collective consciousness, but it is a description of our spiritual history as a people, just like the Bible is a description of the spiritual history of our people in its own age. Putting these two together reveals the spiritual and cultural mind of the modern Westerner: historically and ethically Christian, culturally seeing itself in the context of an Occidental high fantasy. Separately, they are obviously both classics that stand on their own, but do not fully encapsulate the Western mind. Together, they bring together both elements and can explain it fully. In this way, Tolkien accomplishes his goal in writing a new mythical history for the Anglo world. But what's more, he combines that with the stories we already have so that it becomes one long story. Just as Sam holds a small piece of the original Silmarils that aids him in his journey, all those thousands and thousands of years later, we still can hold a small piece of that original Light that we can use in our journeys just the same as the heroes of old. Because it's the same story. It's one long journey from the very beginning of us as a people, and we are in it.

[@eric2500]

This is quite beautiful, but you left something out. The European and particularly the far Northern and Western branches of Christianity incorporated much of Pagan epics, pre English languages of Celtic, Finnish, and Norse origins, and land magic from the farms and wild lands, and of course the holidays and the goddesses and gods who became saints. Tolkien was no Calvinist, as an Roman Catholic who hung out with Church of England mates he had a hearty theological stew to nourish him - and us. It's all in there, making a complex and delightful multi layered story....which we walk through to this day.

[@RogerTheil]

@@eric2500 well said, and I agree completely. I guess, implicit in what I wrote, is that this pagan (and broadly Celtic/Scandinavian) influence IS what I meant by this high fantasy side to our European psyche. This native, primordial and fundamental nature to the Anglosphere that has never disappeared. And as you said, Tolkien was no pagan-hating Protestant, and he realized that in his time, with no unifying mythos for that side of our psyche, it was being eroded by modernity and the lifeless forms of spirituality we practiced. Since Tolkien, most modern forms of it are seen as Tolkienesque high fantasy and have EXPLODED once again in the popular consciousness. Nowadays, orcs, goblins, elves, fairies, old pagan ethics and worldviews, ancient mysterious gods and wild forces of nature, it's all ubiquitous in our stories as if they had never left, and yet most of our stories maintain a broadly Christian frame. Therefore, it seems that Tolkien accomplished his goal of revitalizing this more primordial pagan spirit of our people, and it lives on primarily in our fantasy genres thanks to Tolkien. So yeah, you're correct, but we don't disagree. I was just framing this pagan aspect in the context of the modern form it's become since Tolkien.

[@markp6062]

Hooray!! what a great bit of analysis there. Very fun and insightful. Even as non-Christian, the unity of the story as a whole is a heartening thing. Thanks for sharing this.

[@nat040496]

I think this is one of the only things I don't like about Tolkien's work, his insistence that the world of LOTR was the same as our own, just in the distant past. The world going from Hobbits and wizards and elves and ents, to just humans with cars and guns and computers, makes it feel so much less special.

[@WildSeven19]

What annoys me is that he clearly wasn't happy with his story being just a story. It's a wonderful, fantastic mythology and world. I don't want it to be associated with the real world.

[@intelligentmeditations8378]

I see it as the exact opposite: fascinating and wonderful. To discover that our world, the very earth we found ourselves walking on, is actually connected in some ways to myths and legends, not as fanciful tales but as inspirations to real links in bygone histories (and there are many examples of that) is actually nothing sort of less than awesome, inspiring awe, meaning, and purpose.

[@MMArigo]

How is a gun and computer boring? They are magical inventions in their own right…

[@franceseguren1313]

The Road goes ever on and on, Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say. If this poem doesn't encapsulate the idea that we live in the story as it continues on, I don't know what does!

[@InTheDarkMode]

Wow did that make me fall out of my chair.

[@oscarstainton]

This deep lore material, tethering our world, history and mythology to the Legendarium is incredible. If we're in the 7th Age of Middle-earth, how far away is the cataclysm of Dagor Dagorath?

[@celestialhylos7028]

In Christian eschatology, we use to say ''Jesus is knocking at the door. be prepared''. But in legendarium, we shall say ''Knock...knock, it's me. Melkor''

[@celestialhylos7028]

''NOBODY KNOWS''

[@callnight1441]

well i'm guessing thats supposed to mirror the apocolypse, so whenever people believe that is gonna happen

[@carlp.6196]

This may be a stretch, but "Dagor Dagorath" makes me think of the biblical "Battle of Gog and Magog", both in the similarity of the word structures and in the allusions to a large, final battle.

[@peterbray5383]

@@callnight1441 @oscarstainton that was my initial thought too... Tolkein had a far better philosophical, historical and theological understanding of our world than many of us can ever hope to have. That understanding is expressed in his middle-earth writings. I need to find out what Tolkien knew about the end of the 7th age, because his theology could be quite revealing. We have be come accustomed to apocalypse meaning WW3, fire and brimstone, and hell on earth - thank you Hollywood... Apocalypse comes from the greek word Apocalypsis meaning "the great revealing". When will the great revealing take place?

[@tobiasposthumus6466]

Your analysis, and the way you share it, is great. It makes me enjoy Tolkiens writing even more than I already do. Thank you!

[@unknown.ben2006]

Awesome video. I really loved that part when Sam says that thing about being on the same, great ongoing tale. And how you linked them to ourselves. It's a complex, but incredible feeling, to be part of a great tale, even if it's fantasy. I admire Tolkien for that.

[@matrix-5466]

2:47 Dude was so good at writing fantasy that he was able to write himself into his fantasy. Absolutely genius!

[@colleenross8752]

Tolkien has Numenorean and Elvish blood

[@franksinatra2530]

Hey, I've been watching your videos for a while. You're one of the very few channels that manages to present actually interesting and intelligent LOTR info while also staying interesting. Kudos!

[@LibertarianLeninistRants]

beautiful! we are all still trying to tell our little part of humanity's long tale

[@MaffBowers]

An interesting video idea might be “what exactly does ‘diminished and faded’ mean when applied to the Elves?” Did they become ethereal or what? Perhaps worth exploring…

[@djbradshaw93]

Brilliant. I often look to see if you have uploaded another LOTR video but this one was really worth the wait. A unique take which is impressive considering I thought all areas of Tolkien had been widely examined. Good job Robert! Thanks for making such interesting and thought provoking videos!

[@VTPSTTU]

Nicely done! Thank you!

[@Djynni]

Great insight as usual - thank you!

[@timegasm1462]

Always felt this way! Thank you for this

[@royceflores23]

This may be my favorite video yet. Thank you so much for this one.

[@oKyeahThen]

Awesome love the way you explained this ❤

[@georgeagathangelou5303]

The quality of your research astounds me once more. Amazing video.

[@alwaysask]

Beautiful, touching and inspired video. Thanks!

[@antonellamR2D2]

Excellent video, as usual. I needed some word of hope

[@Arkynkili]

Thank you for this video! It actually came at the exact time I needed it. I've been tossing around a fanfiction idea and the ages (specifically, whichever we are currently in) were something that I needed to work out.❤

[@avielp]

I love this. It's so meaningful

[@istari0]

Great video. I had read what little Tolkien said about the later Ages including the beginning of the 7th Age being marked by the birth of Jesus Christ before but the notion that the 4th Age ended with the great flood is a fascinating notion. It would go a long way towards explaining how, from a mythological standpoint, the loss from our collective memory of the earlier Ages that Tolkien chronicled.

[@myamdane6895]

What a fantastic video. Tolkien will forever be the GOAT

[@KaueMelo]

Probably the best video you put together so far!! 😊👏🏻💙

[@kygon1]

I wonder if the balrog is akin to the 4 angels chained and bound at the Euphrates river. Creatures of the ancient world still dwelling at the worlds utmost depth…. I’m a believer in Jesus so it’s really cool to see how Tolkien’s belief impacted his world building. Even with Eluvatar creating the world through song hits so at home with the genesis creation story. Matter and living beings getting spoken into existence. I just love it! Thank you for the video! I appreciate your hard work and passion for LOTR lore.

[@sunrisesparkle6363]

6:23 With how New Shadow was going, in these few excerpts, I can very easily imagine that age ending with another flood and the world being once again reshaped. So viola, it all fits.

[@matteobocchieri3439]

Interesting idea!

[@whatthefrerejacques]

Lovely work, Robert. This is mastery of the subject.

[@sainiharika]

I was waiting for your video.

[@nope2dat]

The trinity idea seems interesting to me when you consider there’s already effectively 2 sides to Eru in the silmarillion Eru the knower: seems to exist before the song and knows it’s end, who promises Melkor that all melkors themes will be tainted by Eru, who presumably knows the ending andreth predicts. Perhaps this Eru is more related to the flame imperishable or the holy spirit Then there is Eru the reactor/intervener: who fights back against melkors themes, who punishes the men of numenor and who seems to change the plan by removing Valinor from the world, who even perhaps intervenes against Sauron by sending Gandalf back after death These are 2 different sides which contrast/conflict. If Eru knows the destiny of men and the failure of melkor why does he feel the need to intervene and react to their actions to stop them. Heck you could even argue Eru and illuvatar themselves are presented as different things with Eru seeming more like a name and illuvatar a title or role. If these 2 sides of Eru already exist then Jesus could be the 3rd part of the trinity.

[@3jasonwebb]

There is a history of understanding the Trinity in a similar way to what you are getting out. The Father who knows Himself so perfectly that His Image of Himself is the 2nd Person of the Trinity. There is such love between the Knower and the Known, the Primary and the Image, the Father and the Son that out of each person proceeds a Spirit of Love who is God in Action, the Divine Will to Love, the God who Loves-who is the Spirit. So when the Apostle John writes God is love. He really means God is Love. God is Love Knowing his beloved, God going out in Love and God being Loved. He is both Transcendent and Immanent. Exalted and Lowly. Lover and Loved. He intervenes to save Humanity in order to bring them into the Divine Love. The Flame Imperishable is the Life of God. It is the Love of God going out to give life to others--it is the Spirit of God who is symbolized by a flame at Pentecost.

[@AngelArm1110]

Well isn't this a wonderful bit of philosophical musing. I always suspected that Tolkien was trying to write an account of the distant past, but I never would have thought that when he was talking about Eru, he was really just using it as another word for God. Very interesting, and fascinating to think about.

[@intelligentmeditations8378]

Same here, though I didn't see it like that from the beginning, but it has become more and more evident the more books I have read especially old texts and histories of bygone eras. And Tolkien was also a great historian and scholar, it seems clear to me that he meticulously studied and read and read, and read, many sources. I cannot tell you how often while I read old books I have come across points where I thought, 'Ah now I see the likely source of inspiration of this and that' and that deepens ever more the fascination with the world he created/brought together, because it merges so called fantasy and fairytale with our own world, albeit much of it lost in today's world and belonging to previous eras, but still.

[@JamesWjRose]

Very nice! Thank you esp for this one, well said

[@bluesbest1]

Every Deep Dive you put out hits me so hard. I get choked up after pretty much every single one of them.

[@Pfhorrest]

In the Catholic numbering of ages, the birth of Christ is the *beginning* of the Sixth Age, not the end of it / beginning of the Seventh. Which would suggest that, if those ages were meant to align with Arda's, then the First Age of Arda would be like a "zeroth" Catholic age, and the Second Age of Arda would be the Catholic First Age. The Akallabeth and the Flood then line up fairly well... maybe the rest could be finagled together too?

[@Tyler_W]

Cool breakdown. I was aware broadly speaking, but not familiar with some of the specifics of how the Catholic Church divided the ages of the world, so this was an interesting and informative read.

[@UrielAngeli147]

Especially considering the Catholic ages are human-centric, whereas the Legendarium ages are eldar- or noldorin-centric.

[@IngoSchwarze]

@@UrielAngeli147 Not really. The First Age is the age where the greatest human leaders lived in Beleriand. The second one is the age where they lived in Numenor. In the third age, they lived in Gondor and Arnor. And in the fourth age, humans took over guardianship of the whole of Middle Earth from the Eldar. So the ages are at least as much defined by the history of humankind as by the history of the eldar, in particular considering that some of the most importants parts of elvish history _predate_ the beginning of the first age.

[@RYwoodview]

This is the most beautiful, meaningful explication of Tolkien's (& our own) universe I have ever read. Thank you Robert, from Robert.

[@GrahamAstles]

Very good. Thanks for this Robert.

[@jacobshore5115]

You could say that, even now, we are still singing the great melody given to first the Ainur, then to us by Eru Ilúvatar.

[@04nbod]

We are waiting for the end of days so that the world can be destroyed and Morgoth's evil defeated. We can then sing the second song and live in paradise with our Elven kin forever.

[@C-Jaay]

Thanks for bringing up different subjects than the other Middle-earth Lore channels!🤩

[@ThommyofThenn]

It's nice to see stuff like this. I originally clicked on this channel because of LotR lore videos. Then I discovered it covered asoiaf too. Naturally I've watched most of those now, and I still enjoy watching the occasional LotR video on here 😊

[@C-Jaay]

@@ThommyofThenn That's awesome mate!

[@ThommyofThenn]

@@C-Jaay Sorry for long comment and thank you

[@mikegwillis]

That was so beautiful ... thanks Robert

[@MrRandomcommentguy]

Tolkien: "I don't like allegory" - proceeds to write the most allegorical story ever

[@PleaseNThankYou]

I think maybe he said it precisely because he felt that way. He maybe startled himself.

[@LaInocencianoPruebaNada]

well of course we live in the same world as the one tolkien described, for example the hobbits, many say that they are just fantasy creatures, but tolkien was describing a very real creature that are among us (sus) but most don't recognize as such, one example may be Kim Kardashian.

[@GijsTheDog]

"we, too, are part of the great tale that never ends." All our potato mashing has been building up to something lads!

[@valensaz93]

Your channel is just SO beautiful and moving. Thank you so much❤️

[@morgothsring2275]

You sir, have earned my subscription. Well done!

[@houselemuellan8756]

I'd like to think that we're now in the 8th age after the moon landing. It kinda vaguely matches with Tolkien's kinda distain for the advancement of technology, and I think he might draw a line at an event that big and how we as a society is slowly moving into a secular age

[@JudeMichaelPeterson]

C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy was meant to take place in the LOTR universe as well.

[@WastelandArmorer]

It did take place in the same world. The Wizard merlin poses knowledge if Numanorian magic.

[@andrewbragwell2022]

This is one of your best videos yet! God Bless you sir

[@ConvinceMeAudio]

Rob, to discover such a treasure trove of information after 2 1/2 decades of middle earth from your channel video after video is astonishing and exceptional.. Deepest thanks as always 🐅

[@BigGreyDonut]

I love Tolkien’s Christian influence and sometimes allegories in his story

[@celestialhylos7028]

Always has been

[@claytonhosty9876]

Absolutely fantastic, Though it does seem the 1st - 3rd ages were very pre-christian pagan in their approach. Perhaps like Britain 5000bc. Of many gods, elves, kings, wizards, druids & warriors & other mythical beings. Eventually giving way over time into the 7th age, just a different time & way of thinking & doing things. It seems the old gods of earth, magic & stream eventually gave way to the new god of logic & science. As for me, I think I'd prefer living in Rivendell in ages long past. Living in harmony playing my harp in the forest by the stream. Living a life by wisdom of nature, not by offices & cars like today. Perhaps I did live that life long ago in some past lifetime, and this is why the universe brought LOTR to me, to show me what once was in relation to the present. Perhaps I'm living in this life currently in this age because there's something important my spirit needs to learn here. Perhaps our immortal spirits make our way through many lifetimes of learning & experience whichever path we ourselves choose to follow. We are all truly lords & gods of our own selves, that's how the gods wanted it in the beginning. Once a person becomes aware of this, that's where we sculpt our own lives. That's where we find where our hearts are most happy.✨🌠

[@davesing]

Bravo. One of your best works, masterfully done.

[@WhoIsCalli]

I first read this in Nature of ME, and found that idea so fascinating. This was a great vid Robert

[@pastlife960]

Interestingly, the Flood of the Bible, Epic of Gilgamesh and other mythological stories is likely based on the raising of sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age, about 10,000 years ago, and of the deluge that created the Black Sea around 5600 BC. It’s interesting to see how real world events can influence the tales told in different cultures, something Tolkien clearly understood.

[@wwsuwannee7993]

When these guys talk about the "first age, second age etc." remember they mean "ages of the sun". Lets not forget about the "age of lamps, trees, and the ages of stars in Middle Earth that came before.

[@istari0]

Those are two different systems. The Ages (1st, 2nd, etc) are measurements of time used by the Free Peoples. The 1st Age actually began during the Years of the Trees well before the sun first rose. The Year of the Lamps, Years of the Trees, etc refer to how the world was illuminated. Everything that happened after the rising of the sun is occurred during the Years of the Sun.

[@wwsuwannee7993]

I understand. My point was, when he speaks of "Men of the 1st Age", he means 1st Age of the Sun...as men did not exist before this.@@istari0

[@gleann_cuilinn]

I like the nuanced way you handle authorial intent when it comes to literary analysis.

[@zodiackwolf]

Great video, thank you!

[@FairbrookWingates]

One of your best lore videos, thank you for the deep dive!