When Tolkien changed The Hobbit

[@ThomasBrijoux]

In the council of Elrond Bilbos says "But I will tell now the true story, and if some have heard me tell it otherwise (...)". I never realized that not only Bilbo was adressing the council members but also Tolkien was adressing those readers who read the first version.

[@john.premose]

Nobody actually remembered nor cared, for it wasn't that deep.

[@StonedHunter]

​@@john.premoseit might not be to you, but I'm sure there were plenty of readers who appreciated it being addressed. I know I would have loved it.

[@Nu_C-Jay]

Holy crap that's insane when you think about it and I am at this exact chapter (One of the best tho)

[@john.premose]

@@Nu_C-Jay it's not though. It's literally just a writer, ploddingly reconciling his own writings, over the course of decades. Embarrassing that you guys think there's something miraculous about that.

[@frmattdrummond6535]

So people have come here to criticise Tolkien, people I suspect whose own writing extends no further than a weekly shopping list - go figure. Tolkien's work is extraordinary because he cared deeply about his creation, and spent years perfecting it. This is part of that process, and a vital step along the way. Don't like it? Then move along, and leave the adults to their conversation.

[@arcanics1971]

When I first read The Hobbit as a child, my dad asked me to tell me about it as I finished each dive into its pages (I read it over several days). He had read it when he was 14 and it was still a new book- and had often thought about it when he was in the Navy during the war. So when I told him of the riddle game part, he indeed remembered that the ring was to be Bilbo's prize in the contest. We both thought he had misremembered it- after all he read it in 1940, years before I was even born. Now it all makes sense.

[@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV]

Is he still alive? If so, send this video to him. If not, I would suggest either a really strong ouija board. Or probably better, a necromancer who knows their stuff.

[@john.premose]

Wow, you must be old as heck, begging you pardon for making so free.

[@john.premose]

@@BasicallyBaconSandvichIVhe’s gonna need a Hodgekiss 3000 ouija board, turboXL to reach him

[@dfailsthemost]

That must be an awesome mental reconciliation in your mind.

[@Sexyhomedepot]

​@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV Not only was he alive when the book came out, but he was old enough to have read it. Do you think he's alive still?

[@wendydee3007]

When I was nine and attending a very small country school, our teacher was the headmaster. He was an extraordinarily gifted script writer and amateur dramatist, and read The Hobbit to us every afternoon. He 'did' every voice perfectly, from Gandalf to The Hobbit to Gollum, while we sat there completely bewitched and enchanted. I can hear his voice, with each of the different voices, perfectly as if it were only yesterday, and not fifty years ago. Bless you Mr Cookson, and Mr Tolkien, you gave us a great gift and love of literature.

[@greggorsag9787]

My mother, who had been an English teacher, did this for me and my brother (I was 6) with LoTR, also down to each voice. More than 50 years and over 20 readings of LoTR later (including multiple readings to my own kids, sans the voices (not a talent of mine)), I have never forgotten the magic of that introduction to Tolkien’s alternative world. Or the one time she missed, when she accidentally read Frodo’s line in the mountains high above Mordor, “Yes, we must rest,” as “Yessss, we must resst.” (She’d guessed it was Gollum speaking before she got to “. . . said Frodo”). Of course, we never let her forget that. Poor Mom. True magic ❤

[@DocBree13]

❤

[@papalaz4444244]

another load of made up shite

[@geraint8989]

Over 30 years ago, I attended a Welsh-language primary school in Wales. Mr Hughes read us The Hobbit over the course of a school term. All of our lessons (except English) - indeed all conversations with teachers - were in Welsh, so Mr Hughes read the book in English but explained things and answered our eager questions in Welsh. We know Tolkien was fascinated with the Welsh language, and Elvish really does have a strangely familiar sound to Welsh ears, so I like to think that the great author would have enjoyed the performance we received.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

I hope he knew how much he impacted you kids! If he's not dead, let him know!

[@KorriTimigan]

I can only imagine how pleased Tolkien must have felt at not just getting his revision published, but entwining it into his later stories and making it a plot point.

[@hansolowe19]

"Ooh yes, this works much better. Excellent."

[@john.premose]

Fun fact: the original title of LOTR was Rings ‘n Things

[@ThommyofThenn]

definitely a blessing and privilege

[@orc001]

I can only imagine how displeased he was to hear about The Rings of Power

[@Nu_C-Jay]

​@@orc001❤RIP❤TOLKIEN 2023❤

[@Wanderer_Rogue]

Ingenious how he used both versions as canon the way he did. It seems meta in a way, and completely necessary. A brilliant man and author, and forever my favorite.

[@CHRB-nn6qp]

I remember reading the start of Fellowship after learning that The Hobbit had been rewritten. When Frodo and Gandalf were talking about how Bilbo had lied to everyone but them about how he had gotten the ring, I was like, "Holy shit he lied to us too!". So clever

[@leonbrooks2107]

I actually did know this. My grandmother used to tell me about it when she read it to me as a child. Her reading these books to me as a young child is what made me fall in love with high fantasy.

[@TJDious]

I have a 43 year old friend who has only ever read the original and didn't know about the change until i told her.

[@Svensk7119]

I knew of this, but only from uoutube. It was my brother reading it to me. JRR Tolkien died when I was one.... That JRR Tolkien changed the inconsistency shows his hallmark as an author. Other authors don't even bother. He was the first and best of us, we authors.

[@theunintelligentlydesigned4931]

"Tolkien wasn't like other writers." That is such an understatement.

[@spockhozzer7207]

Yeah. Other writers are good it

[@theunintelligentlydesigned4931]

@@spockhozzer7207 I think Tolkien was a good writer but he was also a very long winded author. I don't think anyone would write as long winded of a story as Tolkien did.

[@solomonburns7137]

Tolkien built different.

[@travisvanalst4698]

Definitely not an understatement lol.

[@theunintelligentlydesigned4931]

@@travisvanalst4698How many writers wrote something that large?

[@kevinknight287]

Amazing! It has so much more meaning and it's as if we get to hear Tolkien himself talking about the change in the story which is pretty epic when you think about it.

[@Sophira1]

It is quite amazing to think that Tolkien really didn’t have to change much to align both tales. Goes to show how deeply connected each was to his world vision and all its intricate threads.

[@RingsLoreMaster]

I suppose the commentary would have been richer if the Ace book publication controversy had come up. I believe they relied on an older edition. What is not mentioned here is that there were other - at least one other addition prior to the changes this video goes into. Tolkien might have made the changes simply because of the Ace Edition which was never authorized.

[@john.premose]

Well… he wrote both of them so why would it surprise you? Obviously LOTR developed from things he had in his mind just as the Hobbit did.

[@caryrogers9676]

Worth noting is that Tolkien published a brilliant fix to some of the conundrums of The Hobbit. In the Appendices to the LoTR (found in Return of the King), there is an account of some of the happenings of The Hobbit but from Gandalf’s point of view. This allows for the lighter tone of The Hobbit, and introduction of background material and alternate PoV that sets the darker tone of LoTR.

[@Bombur888]

He actually undertook a more extensive rewrite later on to make a version that would be morre fitting with LOTR tone-wise but was dissuaded to pursue by a friend.

[@digitalnomad9985]

@@RingsLoreMaster "Tolkien might have made the changes simply because of the Ace Edition which was never authorized." Or his publisher might have INCORPORATED the changes for that reason. Owners of the Ace Edition considering buying the authorized edition on moral grounds would have an additional excuse to do so, or at least reward for doing so.

[@oscarstainton]

Making Gollum a greater threat to Bilbo’s life and thus creating the challenge to Bilbo to show mercy for the creature that nearly killed and ate him is such a powerful moment. Which is why, despite its own set of qualities, I am not a fan of how its handled in the Rankin Bass adaptation with him leaping over Gollum yelling “Ta-taaa” while invisible. Its far too flippant and lacking artfulness.

[@TheBrotherGrim]

It's definitely a bit too light hearted for the moment in view of its connection to Lord of the Rings and the larger story, but I still have a huge soft spot for that Rankin Bass animated Hobbit. I used to constantly beg my mom to rent it out from the local library when I was super young, and going back to watch it these days always feel so charming that I can kinda overlook it

[@oscarstainton]

@@TheBrotherGrim That I do understand. There's a lot I like and indeed love about the Rankin Bass animated film; not least the music and songs, most of the voice work, and the storybook charm it exudes. Still, there are aspects I strongly dislike and the "Ta-ta!" scene is one such moment because of how it affects my feelings of this version of Bilbo. That being said, I do respect anyone's feelings of enjoyment or nostalgia for the film.

[@jbrisby]

Rankin Bass flippant and lacking art? You don't say!

[@BY-bj6ic]

@@oscarstainton The animated movie is why I read the book. I never knew it was a book until I saw it in a library in the late 70's.

[@jamesonbetts1832]

I wish more authors did this. Sometimes things in a series become more complicated than an author originally intends, and by going back they can fix any speedbumps in the overall story.

[@TJDious]

Yeah bro look at all the pants-peeing tantrums when George Lucas did it and tell me you can't see why anyone would be hesitant.

[@feliciastaldotter5168]

​@@TJDiouswell theres a difference between doing good changes and bad changes.

[@Svensk7119]

I wish that, too. But not everyone will have enough call to re-publish an updated version.

[@jamesonbetts1832]

@@feliciastaldotter5168 More so between necessary and unnecessary changes, but your point stands

[@MrFiercetrim]

Stephen King did it for his first book in the Dark Tower series. Just like Tolkien's change, King's change actually worked well with the theme of the overall Dark Tower story. If the creator wants to change something in their created universe, so be it!

[@nOT_sURE08]

Tolkien over here casually inventing the Mandela Effect.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Ha!

[@Lucius_Chiaraviglio]

Got to appreciate that attention to detail -- hardly anyone is that thorough.

[@Wanderer_Rogue]

You should look up how much effort he put into analyzing the math of moon cycles and calendar accuracy to ensure the moon is waxing and waning or full at the appropriate times of his story compared to actual history.

[@MarkoBotsaris]

We also hear Bilbo, just before re-telling the true story at the Counsel of Elrond, directly apologize for the older made-up story as there were a few people like Gloin at that meeting that had only heard that version from him. In that apology, coming after giving up the ring willingly and then living in Rivendell for may years he also seemed to imply - at least as I read it - that he finally understood this strange behavior was probably related to the ring's effect on him. I suspect Bilbo is supposed to have understood a lot more than he openly reveals, and of course this makes the scenes in Rivendell where he is sending poor Frodo off with the one ring all the more poignant. In the PJ movie I'd say the scene where Bilbo apologizes to Frodo actually seems more explicit about this, but probably that is only because film is just a more explicit medium. Bilbo was ALSO supposed to be the translator/compiler of the "Silmarilion" as well during that stay in Rivendell, and I imagine him slowly putting two and two together over the years as to what the workings of fate tended to look like, and how such things might be related to his and Frodo's stories. Personally I would have loved a written account of Bilbo interviewing Glorfindel about the fall of Gondolin. 😂 Anyway, I think we would be hard pressed to find other examples in history where a RETCON of a novel by its author, corresponds to a RETCON of another author's story who is himself a character in the original novels.

[@mvsh]

I'm baffled because this is the first time I've heard about this, and not because I see myself as some kind of Tolkien expert, but because I always binge-watch any content creator which talks about Tolkien and his work, and has been doing this for years, and somehow no one have told me about what could arguably be the most ingenious bit of Tolkien's work.

[@12classics39]

“No secrets between us, Frodo.” That line always makes my heart melt. It shows the level of love and trust that Bilbo and Frodo shared, and how they really became a little team, taking care of each other and communicating healthily while living together during those years.

[@Wanderer_Rogue]

Right? I believe he told Frodo the true version from the beginning.

[@Nostradevus1]

Did Bilbo know it was "someone else's property"? I mean if I found a gold ring buried in the mud in a mountain cavern that's sparsely populated by goblins I would have figured it belonged to a long dead victim of said goblins and was just lost to time.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

I don't think Bilbo knew the ring was anybody's property when he picked it up. Of course, he figured it out later when Gollum tried to get it back.

[@saturnsextilevenus]

​@@JonathanRossRogers yeah and why would Bilbo feel bad about stealing from someone who wanted to eat him lmao

[@JonathanRossRogers]

@@saturnsextilevenus Trying to avoid being murdered and stealing the property of the potential murderer are distinct moral choices. Bilbo didn't know Gollum's intentions at the beginning of the riddle game. By the end, Bilbo knew Gollum wanted to eat him and keeping the ring helped Bilbo survive because it allowed him to sneak by Gollum and escape. If the ring had been nothing more than a shiny piece of jewelry, there'd have been no justification for Bilbo keeping it. The significance to the Lord of the Rings is that Bilbo starts being corrupted by the One Ring soon after he picks it up. He lies to Gandalf about winning the ring in a riddle game.

[@Jerma985_fan]

​@@JonathanRossRogers bro just blew my mind I never thought about it that way

[@DieselpunkJono]

My favorite trivia about Tolkien’s changes to The Hobbit is that he felt compelled to amend Gollum’s description to include his small size after Tove Jannson (creator of the Moomins) drew him as a giant when she submitted illustrations for a possible illustrated edition.

[@kaengurus.sind.genossen]

My German Edition, a reprint of the original translation from the 50s, has an illustration of Gollum, in which he looks like a giant toad more than two times the size of Bilbo.

[@Pollicina_db]

WHAT? I never knew she was a fan of Tolkien, thats crazy

[@DieselpunkJono]

@@Pollicina_db not sure if anyone knows how much of a fan she truly was or wasn’t. I remember reading somewhere she illustrated for Lewis Carroll as well but apparently thought he was “pathological”

[@Frrk]

Just googling that, these illustrations are so fun to look at!

[@jokurandomi93]

I have a copy of The Hobbit illustrated by her. Of course me being finnish it holds a special place in my heart. It's a bit weird seeing gollum as a lanky giant, but I've always just shrugged it off as artistic license since there is also one pic where Bilbo examines the mithril armor he received from Thorin back at Bag End, and instead of mail, it's full on upper part of plate armor helmet included. They are very nice illustrations, but just take them with hefty dose of artistic license.

[@permarkusrisman6471]

I love how Tolkien changed The Hobbit. It would have been so easy not to change it and just write another story, as many other writers might have. Instead he braved on and changed giving us something magical!

[@TheLeadhound]

It is amazing how much better the story is with this change. Also quirky how he works the retcon into the plot.

[@charlie-obrien]

Creating the world of Middle Earth was the entire focus of JRR Tolkien's life as a writer. "The Hobbit" published in 1937 and "The Silmarillion" in 1977, 4 years after his death. To say that he was dedicated to the world he created would be the understatement of epic proportions. To me he is one of the greatest authors of all time, worthy of mention with the likes of Cervantes, Dickens, Twain and Hemingway. I realize that I did not remark on the revisions he made in his work, which was the point of the video (very well done, BTW). But I always feel that Tolkein being regarded as a fantasy author can sometimes take away the monumental shift he caused in literature itself, with his world building. Tolkien has been imitated by many, but none ever feel as satisfying as the exemplar he gave to us.

[@InsaneRabbitDaddy]

But Tolkien isn't just a fantasy author, he's THE fantasy author. Every writer of fantasy who comes after has to decide to either allow his work to be influenced by Tolkien, or utterly reject Tolkien.

[@InsaneRabbitDaddy]

But Tolkien isn't just a fantasy author, he's THE fantasy author. Every writer of fantasy who comes after has to decide to either allow his work to be influenced by Tolkien, or utterly reject Tolkien.

[@RealRoknRollr3108]

Its actually pretty small the list of writers who create universes of such brilliance they stand the test of time. Great storytellers of the 20th century - Stan Lee, Lucas, JK Rowling, GRR Martin. Oh and Kathleen Kennedy

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

Bilbo saying something like “I lied before, here’s the true story” during the council of Elrond confused me when I read it. A friend who was familiar with Tolkien explained the change to me, and eventually I was able to read the original text myself in the Annotated Hobbit.

[@parmesanzero7678]

The copy I read from my local library as well as the copy I inherited were both prior to the change. I remember distinctly thinking how dastardly it was of Bilbo to effectively take two gifts from Gollum, who played fair when Bilbo didn’t.

[@istari0]

This is the sort of thing Tolkien can manage because he's so great and devoted so much time to creating the overall Legendarium. Few other authors could pull it off.

[@charlie-obrien]

It was his whole life. "The Hobbit" published in 1937 and "The Silmarillion" in 1977, 4 years after his death. To say that he was dedicated to the world he created would be the understatement of epic proportions. To me he is one of the greatest authors of all time, worthy of mention with the likes of Cervantes, Dickens, Twain and Hemingway.

[@johncronin9540]

@@charlie-obrien. He was a great author, and certainly his work was quite encompassing, but it was more of a secondary thing (I don’t like to use the word “hobby” as that makes it sound too trivial). He was a philologist professor at Oxford, and among academics, he is also known for his translation of “Beowulf” from the original Anglo-Saxon (or Old English) into contemporary modern English. Ironically, many of his peers didn’t think his work would amount to much, in terms of being successful with the general public. His most enthusiastic supporter was C.S. Lewis, also an Oxford Don (of Medieval and Renaissance literature) who turned out to be correct. Tolkien and Lewis were both members of The Inklings, a group who would meet weekly at a pub in Oxford, where they would read aloud from the projects they were working on, and critique each other’s work. I would have enjoyed just being in that room.

[@chs76945]

Thanks for exploring this. This is 100% the kind of analysis I love this channel for. The majority of writers wouldn’t bother to fix an inconsistent detail in a story they wrote 15+ years before. Most of the remaining writers would have just had LotR refer to the retconned events and leave the reader to figure it out. Of the remaining few, everyone but Tolkien would have just written the changes and been done with it. Leave it to JRRT to not only make a perfect retcon, but to build it so artfully that the retcon HAD to happen. Truly amazing craftsman.

[@michaelmetcalfe639]

I actually own a first edition copy of the Hobbit. Also own a copy of the first edition with changes it is really cool to compare the two

[@rustyshackleford3316]

I remember reading The Hobbit in 8th grade back in 1996 and having the movies a few years later. Truely a golden age.

[@marlyndonnelly2206]

It also speaks to the great respect Mr. Tolkien had for his readers.

[@Rick_King]

I'm reading Lord of the Rings for the first time in twenty years, so this video is very appropriate to me right now. Excellent video! I'm going to explore your channel some more now!

[@Radien]

The Hobbit, in all of its humble charm, is my favorite installment in the Rings epic, and this adds yet another wonderful page to the things I love about it. Thank you for sharing!

[@jamesheartney9546]

The revised version makes for a far better story, even apart from setting things up for the Trilogy. Gollum is more vicious, Bilbo's danger much more acute, and character motivations much more plausible. It also helps explain why Bilbo waited until the desperate rescue of the dwarves from the Mirkwood spiders before revealing his ring to them (the ring's bad influence making Bilbo uncharacteristically duplicitous). One thing I used to note in my re-readings of Hobbit and LOTR was that the ring wasn't capitalized in the Hobbit, or even in the early chapters of LOTR. Only after we learn it is indeed The One Ring that it gets capitalized going forward.

[@TrappyJenkins]

Tolkien writes a fun childrens story, business men were like "that was great, make another!" so he made an great epic with themes and serious tone

[@erynlasgalen1949]

The Battle of the Five Armies is not exactly for young children. Also the carrion birds who followed the Elvenking's army. That was disturbing.

[@jennyjohn704]

@@erynlasgalen1949Tolkein didn't write 'The Battle of the Five Armies', that was a movie loosely based on parts of The Lord of the Rings and parts of The Silmarilion with very little material from The Hobbit.

[@erynlasgalen1949]

@jennyjohn704 I was speaking of the battle at the end of the book, not the movie named after it. Tolkien seemed to forget himself a little by the end of The Hobbit and stuff got real. Don't get me started on Jackson. The very beginning of the Unexpected Journey movie where Thranduil turns his Armies away and leaves the Dwarves to their fate is a slander on Thranduil's character. Smaug's attack on Dale and Erebor came as a surprise. Erebor and Dale are a six day's march from Thranduil's stronghold, and there was no instantaneous communication. How could Thranduil have been there to turn coward? Don't worry. I've been a Tolkien geek for over fifty years, and I'm intimately acquainted with the material, even beyond the Silmarillion.

[@BodywiseMustard]

"with themes" lol

[@dougie1968]

​@@jennyjohn704are you on hard drugs? Of course Tolkien wrote the Battle of the Five Armies. It's the climax of the book.

[@rogerdudra178]

Greetings from the BIG SKY. First time I read the Hobbit was in 1970. Read the whole series every 10 years to now. A very good story.

[@orrointhewise87]

Even if he did leave the original version in I'm sure fans today would have found a way to explain away this mistake. The Ring, wanting a new bearer, would have released its hold on Gollum, at least enough, giving him the will to let it go willingly to Bilbo. But either way he found a way to make it work ^.^

[@nathanokun8801]

Videos like this one are why KZbin is so useful a medium for information (if done with careful study). This study of what happened to THE HOBBIT woukld not be easily done in other mediums. Good video.

[@charleslarrivee2908]

And it's also worth noting, Tolkien at one point planned to go EVEN FURTHER, by essentially rewriting the entire Hobbit so that it would stylistically fit more smoothly into the narrative of the Trilogy. He was talked out of it around Chapter 3, but we can still see his initial forays into this idea in "The Quest for Erebor" section of UT.

[@mattvanlandingham8034]

When Bilbo found the ring on the ground, he didn't know if it belonged to anyone, or had been there for decades. When first meeting Gollum, Gollum didn't say he lost a ring or even owned a ring. The ring was found in dead darkness in a cave, why assume Gollum knew about it? Within the first few minutes of meeting Gollum, Bilbo knew he was a threat, not a friend. At that point, why TF would Bilbo go into whether Gollum was missing a ring? "Hey Guy, I know you've threatened to kill me and eat my corpse, but did you by chance lose a ring?"

[@Hi_Im_Akward]

I didnt know about this. It's a clever way to recover from a plothole and honestly reinforces the lore of the one ring really changing a person including from the first encounter. I always thought the way Bilbo behaved about the ring was really good planning. I don't claim to be a deep Tolkien fan, more of a casual enjoyer but I do appreciate a good writer who cares about their work including the plot holes.

[@Lotschi]

What a nice video, love this and makes me appreciate Tolkien even more!

[@CornG4397]

Even after the changes, I distinclty remember reading the original hobbit and realizing that there was no way this was originally supposted to be more than a invicisiblity ring Bilbo using the ring for stupid amounts of time with no break (forgive my memory here I read the book when I was 14) when he saved the dwarves from that prison in murkwood and such gave away to me that the ring seemed to have no drawbacks on bilbo at that stage

[@bricelory9534]

Yea, same. I do think Tolkien did a good job in LotR of building a way out of it just being a ring of invisibility - by showing that it took 500 years to fully corrupt Gollum, hinting that it was beginning to claim Bilbo after so many years, and having Sauron regaining his power only after the events of the Hobbit, so that it's more sinister nature was hibernating until its master was ready for it again. But I remember a very similar impression after reading the Hobbit then Lord of the Rings the first time.

[@StuartQuinn]

​@@bricelory9534I justified it to myself by reasoning that the ring was much more potent since Sauron has returned, that's why it affected Frodo so much more. Plus the physical proximity to Mordor.

[@autonomouscollective2599]

@@StuartQuinn I read The Hobbit and TLOTR again just last year, and I reasoned the inconsistency differently. While Bilbo was wearing the ring, rescuing dwarves and stealing from Smaug, Gandalf and others were driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur. And so my reasoning was that Sauron was too distracted to notice somebody wearing the ring and he couldn’t bend his will towards it. But your take makes sense as well. 😊

[@andrewz4718]

I had the same thought, Frodo had to use it so sparingly and the weight of the world was on his shoulders each time he did while Bilbo could just slip it on and hop around gleefully it was like a different ring. Also the ring had this whole self preservation thing going for it yet it was happy for Bilbo to sneak around the last dragon one of the few things that could destroy it without falling off. A retcon too far for me he should have left it alone or change it to have Biblo find another ring in the dragons hord.

[@tsm688]

@@bricelory9534 500 years? it made gollum instantly capable of murder

[@ericgeddes3353]

Hey Robert. Thanks for making these! I was wondering if you guys could do a character study of Bilbo sometime?

[@stoner36s]

The first time I read The Hobbit, I loved it. The second time I read it, it was different than my memory of the first time. I have been a collector for years as an adult and I didn't realize the editions I read at 14 were what are now 30K books at Sotheby's. I would need to hit the lottery to afford the books I casually read at 14 years old. I'd kill for those books today.

[@Jaasau]

Dude was so GOATed that he could fill a MASSIVE plot hole so well that it actually REPAIRS your cars’ shocks when you drive over it.

[@solarisdevorak]

So if the goat is the greatest of all time why are people adding an ED to the end of it? Greatest of all timed? Doesn't quite make sense.

[@ScrewFlanders]

@solarisdevorak A common usage is to create a verb out of a non-verb; it's called "verbing." Thus, the acronym G.O.A.T. becomes the verb "goat." Once the verb has been formed, the word "stands on its own," so to speak. Consider another example of verbing in the verb "knight," which is formed from the noun of the same word. However, the standard meaning of both "goat" and "knight" must be _transitive_ in nature, as they involve the bestowing of an honor _on_ a person _by_ someone else (i.e., one cannot knight himself). Therefore, to make either verb transitive, the -ed ending must be added. In this way, we have Sir John being *knighted* by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, just as we have John RR Tolkien being *goated* by the public.

[@jeffcowles5328]

Best explanation of this I've come across thank you. I have been rereading these books over and over since I was eight and learn something new every time. Handses!?!

[@Wanderer_Rogue]

String.. or nothing!

[@olivergiggins7931]

I like to think sometimes that there was an outcry in the 1950s with people complaining about the Hobbit Special edition, how "Tolkien was censuring literature" and wearing T-shirts saying Gollum Showed Him The Way Out. More seriously , it's a great example of how the modern obsession with "canon" can limit storytelling.

[@7easton7]

Clever! The earliest version of "Greedo shot first!"..

[@Thaumh]

I believe there is also a passage from the Council of Elrond in which Bilbo tells everyone the real story, and begins with an apology for those who heard or read his original version with a more pleasant Gollum.

[@denisvalente6844]

yup that's right. Gloin was at the council and had only heard the fake story

[@jollykimjongun9700]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate the master at work. All these years later his craft blows my mind. Well played Tolkien, well bloody played indeed.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

I did wonder about Gandalf in the Fellowship saying Bilbo had told him a false story. What? No, he didn’t. Did he?

[@la_scrittice_vita]

It might not be heroic, but I always liked Bilbo sneakily taking someone's property when he had been advertised to the dwarves as a burglar.

[@TomHollis-y6o]

this was fantastic Robert! I knew of the change but had never really heard the full story. thank you for saying it out here including the later changes to the LOTR.

[@kennethbrack4061]

Bilbo's reference to his original story of how he got the ring was always a bit mysterious to me since I had never read the 1937 version of the Hobbit. Thanks for the explanation !

[@joeybox0rox649]

"The truth is stranger and more interesting than fiction." Great job, Robert. This untold detail in the original publication is very important. I learn something new about Tolkiens' legendarium, with every one of your videos.👍

[@brianclimbs1509]

I just subscribed because you keep finding interesting LOTR stuff to talk about. I think the sense of history (and its mutability) that this detail highlighted made his world more compelling to read about.

[@TheEmperorsChampion964]

Now that is how you flawlessly pull off a retcon, modern writers should take notes

[@denisvalente6844]

he changed what? 100 words. couldn't be much more than that. And in doing so masterfully changed everything

[@heidibottcher137]

This details are amazing! I´ve heard of the first version but to think now that Bilbo explained the reason to others and us is mindblowing for me. Tolkien really was a special writer.

[@neusch67]

It'd have been an interesting angle for the ring to have convinced Gollum to give the ring up because the ring believed that Bilbo was a better chance of the ring making its way back to Sauron

[@ChrisMattern-oh6wx]

Not possible. Those who have the Ring do not give it up, and the Ring cannot convince them otherwise. Bilbo was only one to ever do so, and he was largely uncorrupted and he gave it to Frodo, whom he loved and trusted as a son. Gandalf himself remarked how incredible the feat was, even with his strong encouragement (he almost forced it). Anyways, Bilbo was the *last* person the Ring would've wanted to be passed on to. It would've preferred an Orc.

[@neusch67]

@@ChrisMattern-oh6wx you definitely make a good point. The ring always has to go the long way round to getting away from a bearer. It changed size to fall off Isildor, it tried to make Frodo walk into the open for the Nazgul to snatch, and it tried to get Frodo to wear it so the Nazgul could locate him.

[@arielview6601]

Which reminds me that Gandalf assured Frodo that dark forces don't control everything.

[@gonpala]

@@ChrisMattern-oh6wx Sam also gave the ring up

[@billcard7074]

IIRC, Gandalf explains this in a passage of the books. The Ring chose to leave Gollum, as it could make no more use of him; but instead of being picked up by an Orc (as the Ring would expect) it was picked up by the unlikeliest person imaginable, Mr. Bilbo Baggins, a Hobbit from the Shire.

[@gerardskippon3099]

Thank you, Robert, I am always fascinated by each insight into Tolkien's World.

[@jeyfromnowhere]

"...and most casual readers probably wouldn't be paying enough attention for it to bother them." Now they would review-bomb the book and decry the breaking of canon, likely with a few slurs thrown in.

[@realnovadamus]

Why yes, Robert. It does indeed sound good and I subscribed some time ago, sir! Thanks for the awesome content. You’re great at what you do!

[@ilovenycsomuch]

His commitment to every detail really paid off leading to such a satisfying world of lord, ironically every little detail played an important part (like any little hobbit could play an important part)

[@Vienticus]

Yeah, one of the prime things of concern in my story is the continuity of the people within it. How things carry from book to book, even though characters come and go, is important.

[@MrLeafeater]

Cool! Here's some bonus engagement; now I gotta find a pre-1951 copy of "The Hobbit".

[@elzar5987]

After watching this I decided to research my copies of the hobbit. I found one of my books is worth around £200 thanks a bunch!

[@InDeepGeek]

Fantastic!

[@dfailsthemost]

Had it been left the way it was, we'd all be talking about how powerful the riddle game must be or maybe how this was an early sign of the bit of Smeagol still within Gollum being strong enough to honor his word.

[@SvengelskaBlondie]

2:54 In the later version, not only did Gollum accept it, he was given THREE ATTEMPTS. he failed all of them, the last attempt he said two answers (string or nothing). That doesn't really help back up the whole "it wasn't a fair question" thing, then again I doubt very much Gollum cared at that point. His evil side would have had Bilbo strangled regardless of the outcome, pretty sure of that.. 9:40 That's quite an amazing way of changing the story without changing the story, Tolkien really was quite the author.

[@loganskiwyse7823]

I knew I had read the original version as a child, and knew the current version was slightly different. But since it was as a child, I really did not pick up on how subtle or specific the changes were. Nor how complete he had made the changes a part of the overall story. Thanks for this video, this is the type of detail into how a writer delt with a what would have been inconsistent dialog between stories is an amazing example of how even what turns into a mistake can be used as a creative tool.

[@pattysherwood7091]

We listened to the audiobooks for years because they were so relaxing. I am glad to learn this interesting part of the story.

[@TeflonDave]

I remember reading this is the foreword decades ago. Some of my friends thought it was just a part of the kayfabe, but I always suspected he made a legitimate change. Though, I'd never seen an original to compare. Great video. Thanks!

[@gerrimilner9448]

i knew this, but had never put it together. thankyou for doing so

[@DocBree13]

Please don’t ever spare us your Gollum impression - it’s perfect! I really respect Tolkien for making the revision - I honestly think it was important to do so, but nearly no one else would have. How amazing that he incorporated the first version in such an integral way!

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Reminds me of my own writings as an ameteur writer. I originally wrote a story that began in media res. Then 100-or-so Chapters in I went back and filled in the 40-or-so Chapters it took to get to that original starting point.

[@KT-dj4iy]

3:50 One of the things I like about your videos, and that sets them above others of similarly high quality of content (and one in particular, the author of whom shall remain nameless), is precisely that you *don't* attempt accents or any kind of affected voice. It would take the voice abilities of a Stephen Fry to have a chance of succeeding, but even there I don't think he'd pull it off. Furthermore, I personally don't think that "in world" affectations of any kind are warranted, or even useful, in these essay-style presentations. So well done! Keep up the good work of using only your own clear, might I say quite mellifluous, but otherwise unaffected accent and tone. 🤓

[@Man_The_Machines]

Incredible!! Another level of genius!

[@RadicalCaveman]

I basically knew this stuff, but you sure did an excellent job of covering it.

[@cecileroy557]

I enjoyed this so much - thanks. I read The Hobbit to my twins sons when they were young and we enjoyed it so much!!

[@Gotblade]

Sounds like designing the workings of a fine watch. Everything necessary to make it work with nothing unnecessary! It must have been fun to craft such a thing!

[@themysticshield]

So I had the opportunity to read both versions. As a long time reader I throughly enjoyed both versions. But I completely understand why the story was changed. Overall a wonderful overview over a very short topic on the greater story.

[@bryandoehler8962]

I did not know this about the Hobbit book. What a wonderful way to resolve the issue.

[@lakrids-pibe]

What has it got in its pocketses? It has got legos in its pocketses.

[@maxmusterfrau5127]

Why didn’t they took someone like you for directing rings of power? You are so passionate and you would be as truthful to the source material as u could. Love ur work :)

[@Palendrome]

Because they hate the source material

[@Road_Rash]

This will never be an issue for me as I have never read the books, original or reprint, nor do I intend to... I'm good with the movies & cartoons from the 70s...

[@erynlasgalen1949]

Eeeww. You envision Thranduil as Eric Von Stroheim? That's not how Tolkien's magnificent Elves look. That Rankin-Bass cartoon was heresy.

[@Road_Rash]

Good thing nobody's requiring you to like it...

[@markp6062]

Excellent! I knew about the gift story, but not all the great detail around it. Thanks for sharing!

[@elrond3737]

Tolkien's change is awesome. Makes the ring the villain that causes Bilbo to lie(the original) about how he got the ring

[@Alvarin_IL]

Amazing details! What a great storyteller! Unfortunately, never managed to push myself into reading a non-tldr Silmarillion...

[@DeereX748]

It was easy for me to understand how the Ring had such an immediate effect on Bilbo after he found it. The Power within the Ring played to his vanity and ego, like it did to everyone else who ever held it, from Gollum to Isildur to Bilbo. Even Boromir was influenced by it as he tried to take it from Frodo just as Saruman and Denethor II were subjugated by the Palantir. Anything corrupted by the Power of Mordor turned one's own personality against them, the subliminal greed and desire for power present in all of us. Only Faramir and of course, Aragorn seemed able to fight its allure once he saw through its insidious attempt to control them. LOTR is an allegory as much as an epic tale.

[@thelasonj]

So very interesting, Geekster! I love how you explain the lore. Thank you. Be well. 😊🩷🩷

[@RSpracticalshooting]

I got the big green cloth bound version when I was in 5th grade and I've loved Tolkien ever since.

[@Jarimir]

I love his commitment to the 4th wall even as he reached through it.

[@SurferJoe1]

Wonderful bit of insight. Never knew a lot of that!

[@mattyboyb523]

This was incredibly enlightening!! Thank you

[@johnfox4691]

Thank you for explaining this. I never knew about the changes.

[@kevinderrick2787]

Loved this summary. THANKS!!

[@MelissaThompson432]

My family used to quote Gollum, from the books we read in the 70s. Those quotes are not in books you can get now. However, I don't see how Bilbo got the ring dishonestly when he got it the same way Smeagol got it: he found it and picked it up.

[@InterrogatorchaplainAsmodai]

In fact he murdered his cousin for it

[@thelastjohnwayne]

Being a lifelong LOTRs fan having read the books in the mid 70s when I was very young ( a wee lad ) I found this fascinating

[@jebise1126]

even in "present" version of story bilbo is sneaky bastard already

[@torch_k8110]

How incredible! Making an old incongruous idea a key instigator for another story

[@WorldofRockhounds]

I'd love to make something LORT related out of stone.

[@Panicagq2]

There are so many minor scenes and interesting items/locations that went mostly undescribed. I love imagining the men that Sauron's flunkies hired to ferry black clothes and Mordor-bred horses across Anduin by night so the Nazgul could ride across Eriador looking for 'Baggins' from 'Shire'. It's a throwaway line in Gandalf's tale at Rivendell, but it took hold of me. Did they survive that job? I'd love to see interpretations of the Glittering Caves, or the stone of Erech on the Paths of the Dead, or the stone basin Galadriel used for her Mirror...such a rich world with so much to choose from. With his ego, what kind of schmancy pedestal would Saruman store the Palantír on? Hmmm....

[@john.premose]

Go ahead. I give you permission to do so.

[@Wanderer_Rogue]

The "Woses" or Wild Men had these cool statues made for them, and of course the most infamous rock carved figures would have to be the Argonath, the sentinels guarding Gondor on the great river Anduin, which bore the likenesses of Isildur and Anárion. Myself, I'd probably carve (if I knew how) the three trolls who Gandalf tricked into turning into stone! 😁

[@NewsRedial]

Dayam, it just occurred to me that there is a similar generational them in Dune and TLOTR. In TLOTR, Bilbo turned away from his responsibility and passed on the painful task of dealing with the ring to Frodo. And in Dune, the, Dune, the Emperor Paul Atredies shirked his responsibility to save humanity through the Golden Path and it was taken up by his son Leto.

[@robertlee6949]

I am an old geezer now (76) but I remember the end riddle being: "What walks on 4 legs when young, two legs when grown and three legs when old? Somehow that got lost in the riddle factory and revisions. The answer, of course, is Man. We crawl when young, walk when grown and use a cane when old... Lucky for me we now have hip replacement surgery so my cane is in the closet for now.. ;-) Ha!

[@Tar-Elenion]

Original version of The Hobbit: "Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves *(or Gnomes)* and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before *they* came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves *lingered in the twilight **_before the raising_** of the Sun and Moon; and afterwards they wandered in the forests that grew beneath the sunrise. They loved best the edges of* the woods..." The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders 1966 revision: "Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before *some* came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves *lingered in the twilight **_of our_** Sun and Moon, but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost.They dwelt most often by* the edges of the wood..." The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders See Douglas Anderson's The Annotated Hobbit

[@erynlasgalen1949]

You know, that is still the same version of the history. Thranduil's adopted people were indeed those Elves who had never made the journey to Aman. The Green-elves stopped before crossing the Misty Mountains and became the Silvans. There are hints that there are even Avari among them who were forced to abandon Cuivienen. Even Thranduil and Oropher were Sindarin elves, followers of Thingol who never led his people to Aman. All of them were 'dark' Elves. About the less wise, there might be disagreements. At least those Elves never made magic rings that caused trouble for everyone. Oropher specifically traveled east back over the mountains so that his people could live with nature as intended. I'm a nature lover myself and agree with Oropher. Tolkien clearly favored his Noldor. Tastes will differ.

[@Tar-Elenion]

@@erynlasgalen1949 No, not the same. Read the bolded portion. The earlier one is utilizing the Sun and Moon from the Two Trees mythology. The later one has the extant Sun and Moon.

[@erynlasgalen1949]

@@Tar-Elenion Okay, gotcha. I still think the Laegrim were there, still east of the Misty Mountains before the sun first rose and after. It's something unique to Thranduil's folk that they don't worship the Noldor the way Tolkien does, much less consider themselves less wise for not being reliant on technology. The idea of different Elven cultures was quite a revelation to me.