The Arkham Games Failed Jason Todd

Jason Todd is a character to whom so much injustice has been done and I'm not just talking about what happened IN the comics.
Which injustice do you think is the worst?
Monty Zander's Videos:
Gotham Knights: • Gotham Knights Critiqu...
The Arkham Knights: • Arkham Knight Critique...

[@redchariot4006]

Something that I also hate is that alot of people think of Jason as the edgy Robin. When he was actually a good kid and a competent Robin. Not a fan of what Knight and Three Jokers made to his character, great video. Happy to have stumbled upon your channel

[@malikreeves6011]

I always hated how progressively more needlessly violent Joker murdering Jason has become. What’s with this weird obsession with making Joker soooo…13 year old edgy fanfiction-y bleh???

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Yep, as a fanfiction fan I am actually kind saddened that the tropes and (non good) writers have made their way into the mainstream. But it's also non-fanfic writers being incompetent and not knowing how to make something emotionally impactful without making it progressively more horrific.

[@TevyaSmolka]

I still forget the Jason todd mother subplot was a thing in the comics and the weird thing is though is that the current comics with red hood aka Jason todd his story with his mother even ignore that plot point currently which is confusing in itself at least in my opinion.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

As is the trend, they throw most of the interesting parts away

[@TevyaSmolka]

@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 yeah that's true man this sucks, especially because besides Jason todd who keeps losing his history the same thing is happening to two of my favorite characters going on with both companies as we speak, which are Jonathan Samuel Kent superboy who got aged up for some bullshit reason just because DC wanted to make a headline of him being the first bisexual superman which doesn't work because his story was developed property to get to that point at least in my opinion, but that's a topic I beat to death at this point so I won't dread on that story but you get my point with that trainwreck of a idea. The second is Peter Parker and Mary jane story which keeps on getting destroyed for garbage stories like the current ASM run which is so bad that it ain't even funny but just sad and depressing, but to summarize it basically marvel themselves keeps on putting Peter parker and Mary jane through hell just to keep them separated because they believe Peter parker and Mary jane work better separated and Peter being not happy is relatable at least in there eyes. Which in my opinion I call bullshit because the Peter parker and Mary jane I knew and love are married and they have there daughter Mayday Parker Spider-girl alive and kicking in the universe and they are all a aweosme family which I approve. Heck its not just me but Across the Spider-verse animated movie that came out this year and made a killing at the box office proves that Peter parker Spider-Man and Mary jane actually being married and they have there daughter Mayday parker Spider-girl even as a baby in that movie is a actual success that the comics just to need to listen and let peter parker be actual adult and move forward with his story and stop holding him back for garbage but that's just my opinion.

[@parsapouyafar1047]

I agree with everything said in this video but can we talk about how Jasons morality is also thrown out of the window with him helping scarecrow in the game I mean Jasons willing to kill bad guys but he wouldn't be working with a group of criminals terrorizing Gotham

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Yeah, like Monty Zander said in his video, Jason Todd thinks they're all scum. He'd never work for any of them

[@svrmaster103]

When i began actually reading Jasons time as Robin i was surprised by how different he was from how i saw him beforehand and it's unfortunate how he's misrepresented now. Good video👍

[@Temple277]

First sign of red hood in Jason was one issue in urban legends it was #2 where jason todd basically killed an abuser, thats one of the reasons fans wanted him dead in dc comics if im not mistaken. So what my point is is that he wasnt that much of a great person before he became red hood basically.

[@svrmaster103]

@DCTemple27 You mean Diplomats Son? Because in that story the abuser was a son of Diplomat who assaulted a girl and was going to get away with his Crime and get off Scott free back home and ended up causing his victim to commit suicide leading to Jason in anger confronting him and its left ambiguous as to whether he pushed him or not. I don't think Jason killing an abuser getting away with his crime makes him a bad person as it is understandable why he would do it and that is only one example as most of his time as Robin he kept true to Bruce's code.

[@Temple277]

​​​​@@svrmaster103 Well but killing this abuser doesnt make him any better, its like a ying yang thing, where even if u kill piece of sht People ( and yes i agree those kind of People deserve it) u still kill them and u doesnt make the crime count any lower, so basically instead of killing innocent people u kill piece of sht people but ur not any different because u still kill them, u do the same thing they do but to a different kind of People, thats why jason todd wasnt really a great person to begin with before death in the family, its because for example, dick grayson became something better then batman, thats the best that came out of batman, the same could be said about jason if he wouldnt do what he did (killed an abuser and instead of doing good things after coming from the dead to life he started doing more bad things Just with a different kind of people), and thats why i never really was a fan of anti heroes, their philosophy simply beats themselves because they try to Justify their own terrible behavior while they dont know that they simply do the same but not against good people, instead they do it to evil scumbags and etc. Aight sorry for the long comment, in the end both of us wont agree with each other so its not really worth all these arguments 😂, i just shared my pov and u can do the same, we Just talk as People With respect talk to each other, so Just wanted to make that disclaimer if u want to continue the discussion ✌️.

[@raffimohammed53]

Great Video as always! I always thought that while I did enjoy Arkham Knight as a game, the character of Jason Todd did not work here, not only as the secret identity to the Arkham Knight character (I mean, c'mon, when he first appeared it was so obvious who it was), but his presence was merely used to show the relationship between Batman and Joker (a relationship that was portrayed very well throughout the 4 Arkham games) rather than exploring his own character and the relationship with Bruce. However, to give Arkham's Jason some merit, while Under the Red Hood did a far better job exploring the morality of Jason Todd, and the conflict between him and Batman, I feel that Arkham's Jason focuses more on the abandonment aspect of Jason Todd, which yes, does seem like 'Why Bruce you didn't save me', a line really loved in the game from him was (i'm paraphrasing here) 'It was all about YOU! The joker used me to spite YOU!' which goes to show how disposable Jason felt, not only from the hands of the Joker, but also from Bruce himself, where Jason was merely a pawn in the game between Batman and Joker, and this disposable-ness was further exacerbated by Tim Drake quickly being Robin after Jason's disappearance. In a way, I feel Jason resents Bruce as he feels that not only was he abandoned and disposed, but also he perhaps felt manipulated by Bruce for being Robin, and being another pawn in Batman's war with the Joker. It kinda reminds me of the fallout between Dick and Bruce in 'Old Wounds' from the New Batman Adventures, where Dick literally said in Bruce's face that he manipulates people and pulls their strings. I feel that Jason's characterization could have been better if perhaps there was some interactions between him and the other Robins (Dick and Tim were literally in the game, heck I felt Arkham failed Tim more than Jason considering how much he was put on the sideline), it could have contrasted the different relationships Batman had with his sons.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Yeah, the line about the Joker using Jason to spite Bruce was good. The only issue I had was that in the comics the reason Jason was angry is because he was blaming Bruce not for the 'using' itself but more what he saw as Bruce letting it go on and on instead of just killing the joker and stopping it from happening again. Whereas in the games it's not a questions of what is right and wrong Jason is just angry that it happened. Which I am not saying he doesn't have a right to be it just takes away from the nuance of the character, the morality and the kid's strength. He's not concerned that it happened, he's concerned that it keeps happening. That's why i love him. And you're right. I really think if Rocksteady wanted to do this, the batman should have been a thing, at the very least a background thing way earlier.

[@rotimigbadebo9609]

Another great video Miss! I've always viewed Jason Todd as the avenger of the bat family. He's the hurt kid that lashes out at the monsters so that other kids don't get hurt. He's often harsh but considering most monsters he goes against are unrepentant.....why shouldnt he be?

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Yeah, Jason's moral code is very nuanced. And if you know his background it makes total sense.

[@SalazarKnight]

I just stumbled upon your channel and I gotta say I love how much passion you've put into the videos. Excited to see the channel grow and evolve with time. Keep it up!

[@jakkdlaw]

I liked the Arkham games but you make a really good point. I am now thinking of so many other ways they could have made him better.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

I think if they were going to do anything with Jason or any of the batfamily really, they needed to be introduced in the games way earlier. And have Jason's Arkham Knight taunt Bruce in the Asylum by killing criminal after criminal in front of him to prove a point that Bruce either lets the Arkham Knight kill the (in his mind) scum or he kills the Arkham Knight to make it stop. That would tie into the reveal and Jason's point being that if Bruce had just killed the Joker at the beginning many would still be alive and many more (Jason included wouldn't have had to suffer).

[@jakkdlaw]

@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 That's a great idea, I wish they did that. Are you a writer?🤔

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

@@jakkdlaw I'd like to be. Just never seem to make the time for it, except for my youtube vids 😅 Though I do always keep in mind that it is easier to make things better in retrospect.

[@somerandomsmarta556]

I need videos on all Robins being done dirty. As a Tim fan I need it 😭

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

How Tim's character has been ruined is so incredibly complicated but ultimately adaptors not knowing what to do with him (kind of like Jason). My theory is that it started with Bruce Tim.

[@somerandomsmarta556]

@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 I still blame the New 52.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

@@somerandomsmarta556 The thing about New52 s there was actually decent stuff in it but it was just so mismanaged and they got rid of so much. And they misjudged a lot about certain characters. Still, I actually didn't mind the New52 red hood comics. Thought putting him with Roy and Kori was weird (prefer his Rebirth team) but what they actually did with Jason was pretty good.

[@UltraVioletKnight]

​@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 It started with the pre-N52 DC comics ruining his character by killing his dad and thus removing the family and school life that made him relatable and turning him into a generic Bat-son. Then the new comics broke up Tim and Steph which are a great couple for him to date "Bernard", some rando who hasn't been in comics for like 20 years. Now that dogcrap ship is the only one we'll get because DC wants to look progressive without putting in any effort. Batman Unlimited is the only good adaptation of Tim Drake but it's not much.

[@navidds]

ok I like how you properly articulate the feelings I've juggled in my head for years. Thanks for this content.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Thanks for the comment. I adore Jason. It's kind of sad that Arkham isn't even the worst of it.

[@salahdeanclemens2226]

Alot of Arkham retrospective are like that, just KZbinrs liking a plot twist that doesn’t work and Monty Zander is no different.

[@TheShockVox]

3:06 I’m super curious how you felt Johns ruined Aquaman. I haven’t read that run in years, and only member highlights.

[@joshuataylor7443]

I would disagree in 5:23 the idea to kill off someone motivates for another character isn’t lazy it’s how you use it I hate when people thinks it’s bad in if itself.

[@deterlanglytone]

Something that I always found weird about Jason Todd in the comics was just how little Death In the Family really matters to how to the story of Jason Todd. About the onl y element of it that is kept is that he dies and gets hit alot by Joker with a Crowbar. And I think I could live with removing the mother subplot, even though that whole dynamic is the story and contributes to Bruce's complicated feelings as Jason's dad. But Batman does also totally try to kill the Joker in the comic. So I always got a bit confused. I can understand latter going "I shouldn't do this." after some time has passed. But it does feel like a diservice to their relationship that the element is forgotton. Not that I particularly like Death in the Family anymore. Jim Starlin's interviews ruin that story, don't watch them. But the narrative in it is a interesting tragedy that enchances the characters' emotions and not subtracts. The comcis back then played alot with Jason and Motherfigures. Even entire story lines revolved around this aspect after he is brought back, Talia(ignoring that one element of bleh), Natalia Knight and Death in the Family itself. The relationship of Jason with these characters is a thing where even when he ran away from Bruce in the opening of Death in the Family, he isn't trying to replace him. He goes looking for a new mother, not a new father. Also shout out to the coffin scene in Under The Red Hood's comic. The subject is great, relating the coffin maker and his son with Bruce and Jason to act as a moment of Bruce doubting his own methods is great. Bruce gets portayed as a rock morally too often. When its the ablity to raise above his own temptions that is aspirational.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Thanks for the warning I won't read that interview. Despite it's unsavory creation DITF is one of my favourites. I don't think Jason was trying to replace Bruce but at the same time i think he felt as though he didn't belong because Bruce wanted to take him off Robin duty. Of course Bruce had good reasons but try telling that to a troubled teenage boy who has been failed by every adult in his life. So the discovery of a mother he'd never met was his chance for someone who might understand and accept him.

[@brandenaustin37]

Excellent vid. I really enjoyed the arkham games but i did feel jason felt a bit off. Im also pretty saddened how over simplistic the bat fam has been reduced to in some instances, not broadly but when it show boy does it. Also side note WTH is going on with Tim why is he still Robin and kinda just filling in the background in most cases and your point about Barbara was spot on too. So many writers are just so...weird with her

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Background is a pretty good way to describe Tim right now. I mean, they don't seem to know what to do with any of the characters right now but Tim they especially don't know what to do with.

[@MontyZander]

Subscribed.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Awesome 😁Thanks for hearing me out

[@MoojinBoi]

they failed a LOT of things in the arkham trilogy, every family member, most rogues, and god, poor kevin conroy, so much talent wasted on horrible voice direction, or a lack thereof really, leading to the most monotonous dialogue without a hint of emotion beyond occasional anger, arkham origins was SUCH an improvement on all of these things, i swear, and gotham knights thankfully blew all of it away with getting the characters right and having actual damn emotions

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

My feelings on the Arkham trilogy are very mixed. That would be a video all on it's own but I am not a gamer. I play games occassionally but not nearly enough to consider myself a gamer so I don't feel as though I could go at this trilogy from all the angles it deserves.

[@renardofranklin608]

What are thoughts on Superheroes no kill rule I personally think it depends on the character, but with character that are similar to Superman and batman in terms of morality then they shouldn't kill.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Honestly, the no killing rule is a video all on its own but long story short, good for some characters not for others

[@MichaelW52883]

Yea I felt the Jason is the Arkham Knight thing just fell really flat for me. Had he just been the redhood and did the under the red hood thing with his character it would probably felt less boring. Whats more annoying is that they tacted on his arch the last minute and didn't lead up to it with slight clues in Asylum that he could be there. I mean had they just threw in 1 tiny hint of Jason back then it would have felt so much better. Oh and Nice hair cut you look nice.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

No-one is going to tell ne that Jason was an element they had planned before Knight no way. My hair's the same as its always been. Looking at the video now I guess it does look shoulder length but it's actually down to my tail bone. I guess cause its so long it sits on my shoulder without falling over it.

[@joechiller3273]

12:05 I would argue the game does for the simple fact of having Jason work with Scarecrow and the rest of the rouges gallery. In the comics we've seen under all that anger and brutality Jason is a good person at heart and would NEVER work with people like them regardless of how angry he was with Bruce. Not to mention Scarecrow's plan entailed the deaths of alot of innocent people including the nice waitress at the beginning of Knight and the rest of the people in the diner and all for what? His anger towrads Bruce? Like those people had anything to do with it. The whole appeal to Jason is that while he may be willing to cross the line Bruce won't he's still at the end of the day going after bad guys specifically. P.S. Love your videos and this is coming from a guy who isn't even that big of a Jason fan ( Dick and Tim are my boys)

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Yeah, that's actually a really good point. I was really trying to give the games as much credit as I could taking into consideration the fact that the narrative through line is the joker and batman but that's no excuse for making, infamous criminal killer team up with criminals. It would be kind of like partnering the punisher up with kingpin. I adore Dick and Tim, sadly much like Jason, they have been lost in recent comics. Adaptations too actually. Jason at least has a couple good adpatation under his belt with under his bet with Under the red hood and even the Death in the Family interactive movie.

[@joechiller3273]

@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 Wow first thank you for the reply and yeah that's always been something that's bothered me about Knight Secondly yeah Jason and even Damian to a degree gave gotten the best adaptations out of the family leaving other to be forgotten (cough cough Cassandra Cain cough cough)

[@Temple277]

I think under the red hood comic book and its adaptation did red hood the best, arkham games Just tried but unfortanetly didnt get jason right imo. Also have u ever considered looking at the character of spawn? Would really love Dark kind of video (similar to ur incredible batman ego video) about spawns character, about his rises and downfalls, also ur videos are truly underrated and deserve more views and all, keep up the good work and have a great day! P.S do u love any of these shows? peacemaker invincible or the boys? Thats right! PEACEMAKER, OMNI MAN, AND HOMELANDER ARE GOING TO BE IN MORTAL KOMBAT 1! WHOOO!

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

Thanks for the lovely comment. I haven't read Spawn. I actually haven't read image comics in a while. I know of the character though. Seems pretty cool. As a big Garth Ennis fan I have ... mixed feelings on the boys. I am working on a video for that but it will be a long one and when I say long I mean several hours. It won't be done for a long time. :)

[@Temple277]

​​​​@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 Yea if u would ever want u could do a debunk of spawns philosophy or those kind of psychological analysis u usually do ( and personally i love it even though sometimes i disagree with u but ik where are u coming from), and yeah, perosnally i am looking forward to the boys video if u plan on making it. I also really hope that u will compare the boys comic books to the tv show. Peace! ✌️

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

@@Temple277 I welcome disagreement. It how I learn. 😀😀 Even on this video I said that Arkham Knight didn't destroy Jason's integrity to the same extent as Geoff Johns. Someone disagreed and said that it did because it had Jason teaming up with Criminals. And I thought, yeah, that's a pretty good point. Jason wouldn't do that. In UTRH he took control of the criminals, and/or killed them. Teaming with them?

[@Temple277]

​​​@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 Yea like red hood was turned from being a menace and Punisher esc character to a crying manbaby in the arkhamverse unfortanetly, and yeah as much as i love geoff johns run on GL and flash i gotta admit that he unfortanetly as well ruined characters like red hood as well. Suggestion: since if u look deeper into it winter soldier is actually a knock off of red hood which i think thats the only reason that winter soldier is so good because of his similar persona and story to Jason so i gotta suggestion (and yes sorry i made a lot of suggestions for u already in this comments section! 😂). U could do a comparison video for red hood/winter soldier (u could add Punisher as well since red hood and Punisher are almost the same character) where u talk about anti heroes in general and whether they're good characters or not and what makes them different from heroes/anti villains/villains. Could be good imho! Still waiting for the boys video but remember, take ur time! Quality>quantity! ✌️

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

@@Temple277 Yeah like most DC and Marvel characters the release of one can be lined up with the release of another very similar one. I think Winter Soldier has his own interesting components, namely the brainwashing. And Frank Castle is ... Frank Castle. He's a unique case in that there is a strange sense (at least for me) that nothing MADE him what he is. He was always that and what happened to him brought who he truly was out in the open.

[@DeerBoy736]

I agree to the point of the Arkham Knight was an inetersting take on Jason. But as you said he was basically just a plot device. Jason raise a private army to rule gotham is I say an interesting idea to explore. But the writing of the Arkham games was never the strong part of the series just look at the abomination called plot of City. The bat family is criminally wasted in the Arkham games. Your ending monologue makes me grateful being Tim Drake fan. Despite my frustration about the lack of proper story with him he at least just dissapeared which is slightly better than what other members of the bat family got over the past years. Lego Batman Dick Grayson is still one of the best if not the best Dick Grayson on screen. I can't put into words how much of a shame it is. Your thumbnail says: Jason Todd failed Jason Todd.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

You're right 😆. I meant as in the game not the person but I've gone back and removed the 'The', now hopefully it makes more sense.

[@DeerBoy736]

@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 Well who is "The" Arkham Knight. I get it, don't worry. I don't think it will cause any misunderstanding to anyone.

[@tonyantonellis9983]

Here is a suggestion for your next video. You can give us your own video review of why CW's Batwoman sucks. My reason is because they ruined poor Kate Kane when they had a chance t recast and improve her and CW replaced her with a made up successor who is not affiliated with Bruce Wayne.

[@whyitdoesntworkforme9206]

My mantra is, don't watch things you expect to disappoint you. I've never had any intention of wasting my time with batwoman. From what I've heard of it, it's a pretty poor interpretation of Kate Kane and batman universe as a whole.

[@tonyantonellis9983]

@@whyitdoesntworkforme9206 I'm so with you on that one. CW's Ratwoman made me doubt myself and I'm still hurt from it. And i hope Batwoman (Kate Kane alone) will be in James Gunn's DCU bat family where the character can be done justice. Amd I hope she will be played by Wallis Day, Kristen Stewart, Katy O'Brien or Mackenzie Davis.