The Army's Secret Plan to Conquer the Moon

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"Project Horizon" was the US Army’s secret attempt in the 1960s to come up with a viable plan for long-term American colonization of the Moon. But with the Soviet Union already ahead in the space race, the hundreds of pages of classified reports also had to consider what would happen if a lunar base was attacked by the Red Army. How do you fight a war on the Moon? What special factors do you have to consider? Noted Science Zaddy Kyle Hill explains.
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[@kylehill]

*Thanks for watching!* TO BE CLEAR: I cannot confirm or deny the existence of a [FACILITY] moon base.

[@deleted-something]

Yea but everyone knows [redacted]

[@F3rum]

May I request the link to the documents you were mentioning? I'm curious and want to look at them myself. Thank you for being you.

[@crowdsourcedlife]

Yo Kyle where is that link at? How you gonna lie in a video like that...

[@isturma]

I want you to compare this to the show "For All Mankind." They BUILD a moon base, and so do the Soviets. Also, I'm a monster and I'd have a rocket-propelled net trap that launched them into the black.

[@JayVal90]

history (.) army (.) mil /faq/horizon/Horizon_V1.pdf

[@cthuwu2138]

I am in love the notes on the 'Death Ray' since they essentially translate to "we don't know how it works, probably a laser or something" "We can't make it yet, but surely it's not *that* hard to make a thing that just outright kills people"

[@jakehr3]

It's honestly my favorite bit of this whole lunar base report. "Just throwing it out there: death ray. Any takers? I mean it's pretty self-explanatory" It feels a lot like Dr. Evil's request of sharks with laser beams on their heads, but it turns out that it is not feasible so you just get ill-tempered sea bass.

[@7devin197]

The aliens won’t let us have one yet but Jeff saw it and said it was really cool

[@1dgram]

Doesn't need to be a laser, just a directed electromagnetic ray or perhaps a particle beam could work: X-ray, gamma ray, high-intensity UV/IR, proton accelerator, neutron beam, microwave

[@Earthenfist]

I like the "Particle beam" one. "Works really well, but the equipment's too bulky for man portability". Which suggests that they could have had particle beam emplacements for defensive use.

[@Plystire]

Kinda puts into perspective a bit what current day "off record" military is capable of 🤐

[@sweetrocks610]

Damn did they find oil on the moon?

[@interstellarsurfer]

Just trying to keep the commies from equitably distributing the moon dust.

[@bradleygeiman9070]

They found something

[@RadBruce.]

Did someone say OIL?

[@orealz]

Time to bring freedom to the moon!

[@Ahrpigi]

Do you mean FREEDOM JUICE?!?! 🦅🇺🇲💥

[@FranklyBuilt]

That’s “moons haunted” reference had me dying 😂 bravo sir

[@gamerlucky]

i rather say alien salves 😂😂😂 looking at our "human" terms and history of colonization 😢

[@michaelmclaughlin4488]

The fact they made a graph for the Davy Crockett mini nuke is just as insane as everything else the military was up to in the 50s and 60s but somehow more mental

[@grahamfisher5436]

Think 🤔 StarFish Prime 🌌🔆🌌 😉

[@glasstuna]

Focused on winning no matter the consequences. That was the problem. Still is to some extent.

[@jussim15]

Now i'm imagining a world where the Soviet Union never colapses and we ended up with a Lunar war.

[@jollygreeng1]

*cough cough* watch "For All Mankind" *cough*

[@pavuk357]

@@jollygreeng1 it is nice but tbh by season 4 they did a lot of changes and ignored some stuff for ussr to survive past 90s that makes it hard for me to take it seriously.

[@dionisisschoinas5918]

Check out a series called "For All Mankind"

[@mitaskeledzija6269]

Ty for the recommendation bois

[@bobfurguson1721]

boy do i have a show for you. For all mankind on apple tv

[@SirBilliam96]

With current technology, regular firearms could easily be made viable for use on the moon. To fix the aiming issue, all that would need development is an electronic system that links into a helmet mounted display to show where the barrel is pointing, similar to how we use IR lasers to aim rifles with night vision. Since recoil would be an issue, we could use cartridges with a lower powder charge. But let's be even more realistic: Automatic turrets surrounding the base would be much easier to implement since they won't miss and can actually take hits without worrying about dying.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

Yeah, and for that matter just seeding the area with remote frag mines in ridiculous numbers could be very effective. Obviously a combined arms approach is better, but then again, if moon soldiers are bouncing around on foot in the open in fragile pressure suits, they probably deserve a Darwin Award anyway.

[@dewlittle1211]

Regarding the electronic system and HUD you are talking about. It already exists. And they both just started being deployed in the US army this year. They are called the IVAS and the NGSW-Fire control which are separate but related programs. I believe it wouldn’t be very hard to reprogram them for a lunar environment. I imagine they would probably be even more useful on the moon due to the weight factor of them becoming null, and being able to take advantage of the longer distances bullets would be able to travel.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

@@LDSG_A_Team vacuum welding of parts for weapons? I would assume that until a colony is able to produce material from raw form all the way to a finished product, it would be far more cost efficienct to ship nearly everything up there in complete form, at least for complex machinery like weapons. Less unused material to transport, only the bare minimum needs to go on a rocket.

[@giggityguy]

This is canonically how UNSC weapons work in the Halo universe. The "Smart Link" uses directional data for your weapon and adds a reticle as an overlay to the user's HUD. This is why a lot of the marines have a visor or a little digital monocle.

[@ZJ_Rubicon]

Can't you just put a Lazer on a rifle? If you zero the Lazer and rifle on the moon it would probably be basically point of aim point of impact out to at least 100yards.

[@CodSlap]

The scifi show ’For All Mankind’ explores this 60s-moon-colony stuff pretty nicely.

[@1Meme2UniteThemAll]

found on Apple TV

[@KrossFire330]

things like scaled down crossbows would work pretty well. Very accurate with no gravity and drag, plus they only need to be big enough to puncture space-suits. Could basically have a fully automatic, magnetic rail-gun that fires small metallic 'bolts', which are automatically (and rapidly) fed into the launcher.

[@truthseeker2321]

They would be better, but you would need an abundance of arrows or bolts. If you missed your target, they would keep on flying until hitting something far away.

[@nateg08]

Crossbow wouldn't work in a vacuum. The fetchings on the bolt (arrow) are what keep the flight stable. With no atmosphere the the bolt would end up tumbling. You might hit with the tip, or the knock, or sideways. At very close range it might be OK, but any real distance would be no good. Think of it like firing a stick from a bow here on earth.

[@ironnj]

Slingshot with caltrops

[@wren_.]

@@truthseeker2321 maybe a harpoon that could be reeled in then? it’s big, clunky, and sharp enough to pierce a space suit.

[@sillygreatjaggi7946]

Jorg spraves magazine fed crossbows

[@EmissaryOfStuff]

I think someone was having a lot of fun coming up with Project Horizon.

[@ApothecaryTerry]

"What did you do today honey?" "I designed a *moon base!*" "Oh that's nice, I'm getting a divorce, you never see the kids anymore and we never make love. Why don't you love me anymore?" Sorry, the story quickly got tangential.

[@sdfkjgh]

@@ApothecaryTerry: That's ok, he's already on the rebound with Selene.

[@JonBrownSherman]

Kyle went full Warhammer 40k logic with that frozen meat dust line

[@musewolfman]

That is literally the NASA plan for if an astronaut passes away on the space station and Earth can't send someone up. Well, except for the fertilizer bit, but that is kinda the next logical step.

[@scarletletter4900]

The more I learn about the basics mechanics of war in space, the more I think that waging war in space is a catastrophically bad idea.

[@Tej132]

Waging war in itself is a bad idea

[@scarletletter4900]

@@Tej132 fair point.

[@blackoutalt2339]

counter argument: it would look really cool though

[@scarletletter4900]

@@blackoutalt2339 that's a very weak counterargument, unless you're really that into "strongman" nonsense.

[@blackoutalt2339]

@@scarletletter4900 The joke ^ Your head

[@Kyuuwai]

US Army irl: " Make a moon base " US Army in movies: *_"NUKE IT"_*

[@chrisgaming9567]

One of the charts shown in this video literally shows the path of a projectile carrying a nuclear warhead on the moon

[@uselesscrap2701]

@@chrisgaming9567 apparently they also planed to use Davy Crockett according to the wikipedia article, but i will read the full original to make sure.

[@JediJerry630]

7:48 “Lunatics” is an underrated pun 😂

[@conwarlock3537]

You should also carry a regular more earth-like weapon with you, in case a fight either offensively or defensively moves into a pressurized station. You'll have air resistance, and range isn't really relevant because stations wouldn't be huge, so it really would essentially be the same as earth.

[@jamesphillips2285]

You may want frangible ammunition designed for aircraft [or] apartment use in the habitats.

[@jamesmnguyen]

I wouldn't want to risk punching a hole in the only wall keeping me alive. But that's just me.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

well, the same as Earth until the bullet hits the walls & it suddenly stops being a pressurized environment... not that the person firing the gun would be able to notice for an extended period of time

[@RipOffProductionsLLC]

Also, the "poke hole in suit and let vacuum do the rest" will only work for so long until someone invents armored spacesuits, or at the very least some kind of shield(which would be a high priority for anyone planning a space war) so investing in some kind of gun with high penitration potential that is easily aimed abd operated while in a space suit should therefore also be a priority, even if it's going to be left in a locker somewhere until the armored kosmonauts start coming up over the crater lip.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

@@RipOffProductionsLLC nah nah, you're missing the real solution to Space Armor: Lightsabers!

[@HiR0SHi.the.D0G]

You can never have to many moonbases

[@nathancarter8239]

We did an experiment once in a leadership class to show the strength of groups wherein we were trapped on the dark side of the moon and had to rank a list of items to bring with us in our trip to return to the moon base, and we were into either individuals trying to survive (the category I was a part of) or a group of people trying to survive (and pulling more expertise to sort the items). I managed to skew the data by doing as well as or better than the groups (that's STEM, baby!), but one of the items caught me off-guard: a pistol. I discarded matches because there's no air, and I discounted the pistol for the same reason, only for it to be revealed that the pistol can act as a means of propulsion in desperate situations. So I was at least aware going into this video that pistols do work in space, but I had no idea they'd be so dangerous.

[@learner_of_light]

A pistol can be a means of propulsion in zero-gravity, but trying to use it to propel yourself on the moon which has a whopping 1/6th of Earth's gravity seems very dubious.

[@Salesman9001]

@@learner_of_light You can do IRL rocket jumps on the moon with a large caliber pistol! 1cm higher per shot! Assuming you already jumped really hard

[@Bob5mith]

@@learner_of_light You were supposed to jump then shoot. Using an inflatable raft to carry stuff was a much less dubious revelation.

[@spvillano]

@@Bob5mith if it's a self-inflating raft, the charges could be useful - not on the moon, but in spaaaaaaace. You know, a real life iron man and far less well guided. Brief bursts could work - maybe. Sustained, x=rnd movement. For that example though, that's a lot dicey. When giving a class, I try to smooth such wide variables out to prove a point, then employ socratic methods to discuss why it was smoothed. One SME or even experienced STEM person now is the SME and the rest, bozos. Bozos win clown games, not real life situations. But, can have bursts of brilliant insight, which is the value of a group that otherwise is going to spout useless nonsense. Leading to the adage, committees - no one is as dumb as all of us combined. A not so gentle reminder that while we might blunder as a group to a solution, it's just as likely we'll come up with the bonehead award for the decade, proceed accordingly, leader. Included in my class, "admit when you fucked up, everyone does and accepts that, they mistrust the 'perfect, dear leader' accordingly, whereas they forgive a fuck up". And listen to, "This is going to sound dumb", that might just lead to an idea that'll get you out of the shit. It has for me. And I've been in far too many "in the shit" situations over the decades than I care to count. Boy, am I glad to be retired from the military!

[@Bob5mith]

@@spvillano I misremembered. This is the actual assignment: Scenario: You are a member of a space crew originally scheduled to rendezvous with a mother ship on the lighted surface of the moon. However, due to mechanical difficulties, your ship was forced to land at a spot some 200 miles from the rendezvous point. During reentry and landing, much of the equipment aboard was damaged and, since survival depends on reaching the mother ship, the most critical items available must be chosen for the 200-mile trip. Below are listed the 15 items left intact and undamaged after landing. Your task is to rank order them in terms of their importance for your crew in allowing them to reach the rendezvous point. Box of matches Food concentrate 50 feet of nylon rope Parachute silk Portable heating unit Two .45 calibre pistols One case of dehydrated milk Two 100 lb. tanks of oxygen Stellar map Self-inflating life raft Magnetic compass 20 litres of water Signal flares First aid kit, including injection needle Solar-powered FM receiver-transmitter

[@deathangellink]

i think a weapon already created before called "metal storm" would be the best candidate, it was a project of making a weapon using a series of encased ammo that was electrically discharged, the system was so adaptive that you could suit it to any shape necessary, and also can adjust the rate of fire as you wish, with a hypothetically rate of fire of 1 MILLIONS rpm, which basically make the gun a big shotgun

[@mr.ackermann807]

Never heard of that before. I would use a modified grenade that has smaller shrapnel for more area covered and eithervthrown or launched by high psi has gun or folded spring loaded metal arm like those spears that have a hold handle with a groove to get extra leverage of the range. The shielding is another design but don't fully know its works. All this back then.

[@airplanenut89]

I remember Metal Storm, could possibly be a decent idea for defense.

[@butchbabytoaster]

Funnily enough, Starfield has a few weapons that work on the same principle. I don't remember their names because I watched one video talking about them once, but there's 3 of them.

[@evolutionarydeadend6812]

I remember it being featured on Future Weapons. Blew my mind at the time Lol but so did the the AA12 when it was featured on FW

[@dean.9731]

I’d imagine razorwire would be incredibly busted on the moon as a form of base Defense

[@Leispada]

Yes, but dont underestimate the casual jump So fences need to be high and wide

[@boosterh1113]

Yes and no. On the moon, coming into contact with razor wire goes from mildly annoying to lethal, but because of low gravity, it is much easier to bypass an earth scale barrier. Your razor wire would either need to be extremely high or (more likely) a field 20m thick.

[@callak_9974]

Imagine trying to put that much stuff down while in a spacesuit....

[@Leith_Crowther]

In additional to the normal jump, we can also expect space soldiers to have a gas propellant to shortly propel them some direction in the air. Not only do you have to defend yourself from a jump, you have to defend against a double jump. Razor wire would at best be an effective delay in some kind of choke point.

[@dolphin2.0.]

7:23 DON'T SHOOT! I'M WITH THE SCIENCE TEAM!

[@jozak78]

Awesome, that graph for weapon trajectory was for the Davey Crockett, a tactical nuclear weapon

[@immaTraitor]

I was also immediately thinking of weaponized stinging, pinching arthropods in tiny space suits. Lunacrabs for the win!

[@SymbioteMullet]

5:58 that diagram says Davy Crockett. They were considering using shoulder launched nukes on the moon!

[@DavidRichardson153]

In fairness, this was before the Outer Space Treaty was in place, so it was going to be considered. Maybe this played a part in the treaty's creation.

[@SymbioteMullet]

@DavidRichardson153 Quite likely. Or it was Elon Musk going back in time because he wants to be the one to nuke the moon first. Never can tell with that weirdo.

[@bigbluealien1]

Was going to say those are some strong shoulders you've get there, but maybe you can shoulder launch a Davy Crockett on the moon, would be lighter and is recoilless

[@benjaminhogan9607]

Honestly I think you could. You might want a bipod, a nice rock to set up on, and a buddy to help out, but it sounds doable.

[@Phantom0fTheRouter]

Davy Crockett was vehicle borne, smaller Dumbo II was explored for moon ops.

[@Psycotimis]

love that the graph for trajectory altitude vs range was for the Davy Crocket.

[@chrisgaming9567]

I noticed that too

[@sertandoom4693]

Armored suits were a thing in science fiction- Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein published in 1959. If one side's strategy is punch holes in suit, the other side might find a way to counter that.

[@IanPendleton-gh6ox]

The first thought that came to my mind on the subject of weapons on the moon was modifying military shotguns so that they could be fired safely on the moon. Shotguns already fire shot instead of normal bullets, and those shells could also be modified so that one doesn't need precise aiming to puncture holes in enemy astronauts. If anyone else has something to add on to this idea or knows some flaw that I missed, I'd love to hear about it.

[@Texmatt21]

Kyle you HAVE GOT to watch For All Mankind. Its an alt-history space race where the soviets were the first to land on the moon. The changes to the timeline are fascinating and include moon bases, men on mars by 1994, and a female president.

[@SeverinHawkland7855]

That sounds better. Way better.

[@silverbullet5632]

I would simply describe it as an alt-history where the space race didn't end. Describing it as you do is a bit of a spoiler as the race to the moon happens during the events of the show.

[@fouchi3203]

For All Manking is goated, Apple really produce a good show

[@Racecarlock]

I really don't like that that show has basically obscured the national geographic documentary about the apollo program that has the same name. Even if it is a good show.

[@fouchi3203]

@@Racecarlock what if it gave it more exposure tho

[@chuckles819]

I just like the idea that they spent the amount of time on boom sticks and not the crushing radiation you would get from being on the moon constantly.

[@learner_of_light]

That's why the moon bases in those illustrations were underground.

[@chuckles819]

@@learner_of_light unless you stayed underground, it would still be a nightmare on the surface, every time you went, though. You'd probably have to have short allotments for service time in any lunar base. It seems like a non-starter to me that we don't have a way of dealing with constant radiation issues beyond walling ourselves off from the source of it, yet.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

But what about nuclear waste radiation! 😅

[@chuckles819]

@@IllustriousCrocoduck that's actually not a problem. We can bury it or just leave it in containment on site. It's not dangerous beyond our ability to tell future generations when our society crumbles from opening it up.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

@@chuckles819 it was a joke.

[@Killtime1013]

I bet this "frag gun" would be the earlier equivalent to the eventual flak cannon from the unreal tournament.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

What a great series

[@kentslocum]

I'm pretty sure there's an entire TV show about the Soviets and Americans establishing military outposts on the moon.

[@kidwithadoomguyhelm471]

never thought an unrelated video about moon bases and the government would be great criticism for starfields gun design

[@XboneMalone]

As Kyle probably eluded to - all D2 players know the moon's haunted L7 guardian

[@TheOneLookGamer]

Had to scroll waaay too far to find someone who mentioned this!!!

[@mastermind3660]

Something similar to project horizon is the plan/research nasa did to create a self-replicating lunar factory in 1982 apart of a conference it’s specific name is “Replicating systems concepts: Self-replicating lunar factory and demonstration” with illustrations too :)

[@joewilson3393]

These plans the military comes up with can be amusing sometimes. Like the one for a zombie apocalypse. They make them to train junior officers on how to plan this stuff out on the scale needed for higher ranks. They give them absurd scenario's like zombies or mass riots over ice cream shortages and stuff like that.

[@GotMyTowel42]

that is awesome

[@robo5013]

The military actually has a Zombie Protocol. It's in case of some kind of massive, quick spreading bacterial or viral outbreak. Once initiated all military personnel have 24 hours to make it to the nearest military instillation, doesn't matter what branch of service, and after that 24 hours anything that moves within firing range of the perimeter gets taken out. Go ahead and say that it's BS but I live in the middle of the world's largest concentration of military might. The headquarters of the USAF is less than 5 minutes from my house. Norfolk Navy Base, HQ of US Atlantic Fleet and the largest navy base in the world is 15 minutes away. Air Station Oceanna, where the Navy parks its aircraft when the carriers are in port (and when they are in port they are at the Newport News Shipyard getting repaired/overhauled, 20 minutes from my house), is less than an hour away. It is also the HQ of the Navy Seals. There are also numerous Marine Corps bases, Weapon Depots and Army bases within an hour of my home as well. I have talked to many service personnel and more than one has told me about the Zombie Protocol. I never ask them about it so they aren't agreeing to a question just to fvck with me. All I have to do is party with them and start talking about zombies and occasionally one will talk about it.

[@royrogers3133]

Artillery rounds on the moon could travel hundreds of miles. Imagine shelling soviets on the other side of the moon right after you detect that their guns have fired and just waiting for their rounds to hit you.

[@jaredmills06]

If I were equiping ground troops, and using them against modern space walk systems, I would probably go with something like a micro cross bow bolt with a bladed head, about the size of a .17 or .22 long rifle bullet, held in sabot and fired, with a light powder load, from a .410 shotgun platform with a rifled barrel to impart spin; spin is CRITICAL. Modern space suits are made with kevlar and other materials which are suitable for stopping small caliber amunition, much like soft body armour, however bladed arrows and bolts are not stopped by kevlar. Without the shearing force of the blade, a much larger caliber round is needed which will impart more recoil. Since making a hole IS the goal, we only need to penetrate the suit just enough to expose the interior to vacuum and so small caliber bolts would be sufficient. The biggest problem however, is stabilisation. With no drag to stabilise the shaft with the fletchings, the sabot must impart sufficient spin to maintain stability through gyroscopic force, otherwise it will be just as useless as a .22 against the space suit.

[@danielreimer3292]

I was hoping you'd talk about the development of the gyrojet! It was actually made and I believe it was intended for space war. Love your videos!

[@JosephHarner]

It's also a load of hot garbage, sadly. The low initial projectile speed combined with inconsistent thrust made for a highly inaccurate weapon. Because it took significant time/distance to get up to speed, it also was completely ineffective at close range. The concept isn't all bad. Throw in some electronics for guidance, and a faster-burning initial launch charge (such as seen in recoilless guns like the M3 MAAWS), and you might be able to make something halfway practical (albeit terribly expensive).

[@KristovMars]

I was waiting for that too (I grew up playing TSRs Star Frontiers). But michelin men bouncing around shooting shotguns is pretty crazy so I'm not complaining.

[@05Matz]

I was always wondering if an SMG-sized Gyrojet gun with a very large capacity might be a good weapon for suppressive fire for a unit on the move. @@JosephHarner They'd be relatively light because the 'cases' are part of the projectile weight, and the barrel and other components do not need to be pressure-bearing nor is a long barrel helpful, and the terrible accuracy (probably merely 'poor' accuracy with better-made ammunition?) might not hinder it that much when spraying 'from the hip' to keep enemies from shooting at you while you move? But the Cyberpunk 'smart' direction is also an option popular in fiction. Technically DARPA already demonstrated a laser-guided .50 BMG round simply steering itself with some kind of aerodynamic device, something self-propelled would be nice but not actually necessary for (gently) guided bullets.

[@DecafKauffee]

$58 billion? That’s only twice as much as it’ll cost to fix the Boston subway system!

[@rogerreger9631]

But would some how be considered to expensive to do due to “reasons “ and “increase cost of taxes”

[@brefasdra]

$58bn in 1960 dollars to now is 600bn

[@DecafKauffee]

@@brefasdra That’s what I get for commenting before finishing the video 💀 I’m too ashamed to delete my mistake

[@Glyph8888]

Loving the space videos you're making recently! Working on a hard sci-fi project and it's really good inspiration Edit: Finished the video, and I think I'd defend a moon base with a fragmentation projectile, but perhaps since you don't need too much piercing power, coilgun technology could work if more developed to reduce issues such as recoil and bringing gunpowder on a spaceship

[@IHTACast]

It seems like the best option would be an incredibly high potency laser that could compromise the integrity of the space suit’s pressurized material.

[@kmodo93]

Pigeon guided rotary shotgun turrets! But it is kind of insane that at one point there was something that was actually considered too expensive for the US military to exploit...

[@alementary]

lol glad to be in the timeline where this is happening

[@TheArklyte]

I feel like the whole weapons report relies heavily of there not being any "lunar BMP/IFV" present. Humanity in 1958: we can colonize, industrialize and militarize the Moon in 7 years Humanity in 2023: we can maybe go back by 2030... but likely won't. Because it's not profitable so I can't get a fifth yacht out of it.

[@AlkisGD]

Imagine a game like Elite Dangerous with planetary combat and proper physics. It could end up being hella fun!

[@THarSul]

fun fact: death rays are possible without access to exotic radiation, because another means of taking out a combatant in space would be with heat; it should be possible to use a high power infrared laser to exceed the capacity of the enemy suit's thermal regulation systems, giving the opponent severe heatstroke at lower power levels, and baking them alive on the lethal end of the spectrum.

[@RJ_Ehlert]

I never expected it to be an actual broomstick.

[@aleks5405]

To be fair, modern day anti-air laser turret might be a good backbone for base defence on the moon. It doesn't require ammunition but would need enormous battery banks for sustained combat. Also, diversifying the armanent is also important. Fragmentation based weaponry is possibly the best option on the surface but I'm not sold on them being used inside a base.

[@DougVanDorn]

Yep, and you don't have to worry about weather effects on your lasers on the Moon, either. Clouds won't block or reduce the energy of your beam, or spread it. And from the other side, you can't kill innocent flocks of birds that happen to be flying by with a laser emplacement on the Moon, or mess with the weather by repeatedly superheating tubes of air your laser beam passes through on the way to its target.

[@robert17282]

3 UST 2410), but it is more commonly known as the Outer Space Treaty of 1967. Article 2 of this treaty states that no nation can make a territorial claim to any celestial bodies.

[@DefiantPunk0810]

I can't believe the government actually considered the science of an actual moon war. I'm so happy I know about this.

[@sourabsharma3803]

Jason Mamoa Lite version! 😂

[@sid2112]

I first read of Project Horizon in the 1990s. I feel we got cheated out of something awesome.

[@rantingrodent416]

Seems like the ideal would be something that uses lunar regolith as ammunition, given the difficulty of maintaining supply lines when orbital mechanics make your supply route to the moon very predicable.

[@jasonreed7522]

Another option is to make what is effectively a CRT TV but remove the screen and crank the power to get a highly steerable electron beam. The only input and moving part is the electricity. The downside is that it would probably get declared a warcrime if it isn't already. (And magnets could be used to deflect the beams, but i assume its possible to find a speed and firing angle that ensures the beam always hits.)

[@rantingrodent416]

@@jasonreed7522 you're just describing the theoretical "death ray"

[@jasonreed7522]

@@rantingrodent416 good point, I'm used to deathray being a generic term from fiction where a cartoon villain shoots someone with it and they disintegrate. I suppose IRL death rays are just any beam weapon that kills quickly. Probably the most important factor is figuring out how to make an immediately lethal dose portable and safe to operate. (A failed deathray would probably be a cancer gun, and that is definitely a war crime and not useful for battle)

[@Craxin01]

Some of this preexisting planning is quite good to hold onto. Leave the military stuff out, use the rest.

[@milokiss8276]

Shotgun for vacuum situations, But also note that an amount of situations would call for fighting INSIDE stations- Thus, You would need something that won’t damage your own station’s hull.

[@ericdanielski4802]

Nice video.

[@adamxei9073]

God I need to stay off the coffee.

[@Sir-Green13]

I think melee weapons and shields could go a long way. You just need something that punctures. Nothing better than pointy objects such as swords axes spears halberds and daggers. Maybe a mace for transfer of kinetic energy would be interesting. ( plus a spaceman knight would be so cool!)

[@southernfriedwestcoaster]

Space knight does sound cool👍

[@lanceleader2]

Space knight you say, look for The British Interplanetary Society Lunar Spacesuit from 1949@@southernfriedwestcoaster

[@Flesh_Wizard]

Chainsword combat for the Emperor

[@KristovMars]

Now I'm evisioning US Army Space Knights armed with a spear-cannon. It's a spear, with a built-in shotgun. It's almost straight out of 40k, and yet would be entirely practical in a mid-60s Lunar skirmish.

[@ntdscherer]

I'm reminded of the saying "don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

[@manadorkuk]

Death Ray has a con that says "not yet available but not thought to be hard" and that's makes me laugh way more then it should

[@themarlboromandalorian]

Yeah everybody needs to read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". Nobody will need to speculate on it anymore.

[@Blasharga]

could a shrapnel fragment, or gun projectile fly all the way around the moon and hit you in the back (like in cartoons?) Lets say you have a base with claymores shooting fragments in a 180 degree cone. Imagine that.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

No, it would still eventually be pulled down. Most of the time. Maybe some smart person can crunch numbers and figure out the point at which certain sized projectiles could escape its gravity if fired with enough force.

[@learner_of_light]

No. You'd need a more powerful gun than even a sniper rifle. 1,681 m/s is how fast the shot needs to go. And even then, it will orbit irregularly and crash into the moon eventually because the moon has uneven density, and thus gravity. Read up on "mascons".

[@chrisgaming9567]

Yes, provided that you're shooting the projectile horizontally at the right speed and that there's no terrain in it's trajectory. There were even specific designs for "moon guns" with projectile velocities slow enough to avoid the possibility of projectiles entering orbit.

[@F_the_G]

Man I would really love to see 30+ minute videos from you. Just from time to time.

[@paperizzy]

Can they just give us healthcare lol

[@orealz]

Don't have the budget for it lol 🤥

[@mopspear]

I bet it would be more expensive actually!

[@davidioanhedges]

@@mopspear The Average US citizen pays more for healthcare in taxes than the average EU citizen ... and then the US citizen has to also get Health insurance so they can access healthcare .... the taxes only provide Medicare and Medicade which they don't qualify for ..but somehow cost more than universal healthcare elsewhere ...

[@Vexas345]

The US Army already has universal health care.

[@WouldntULikeToKnow.]

@paperizzy, exactly what I was thinking.

[@spreadItWide]

So much for the moon... I hope a government doesn't reach it first... especially ours. But they do have the best chances of accomplishing it right now.

[@coreytaylor5386]

I hope they do, it would be so badass to have the 51st state be the fucking moon, on top of the moon's resources it would cement the US as being the dominant power in space and earth for centuries to come if it was even close to break even costs to export the most valuable of the minerals and metals to earth.

[@battlelawlz3572]

The United States would be the state that SHOULD be there first. You think Ukraine got it’s defense budget out of thin air, think Taiwan has a large Navy to keep China out? Think NATO can defend itself without the help of the “world’s police” ? Grow up bro.

[@spreadItWide]

@@coreytaylor5386 how about "no power" in space. No countries. If someone builds something on another planet, you get to have as much space as you need to build your structure. Governments don't own the Universe, no more being a prisoner and a slave.

[@Vexas345]

I wouldn't be mad to make it just a NATO base. Someone has to protect the poor thing from Russian "landers".

[@Totalinternalreflection]

​@@battlelawlz3572wtaf?

[@adamattwood5097]

I find it interesting that we commonly use the word “defense” when talking about weapons designed for attacking . To me defense is the opposite of attacking. Such things as a castle wall, a shield, or body armor are things that stop or slow an attack. It’s almost like humanity has forgotten that defense and counter attack are not the same thing.

[@DouglasWatt]

Reasonably powerful lasers that can quickly melt space suits is probably the best option, for personal defense or fixed positions: 1. The transportation risk is much lower than carrying explosives into space. 2. They can be charged via solar power 3. Without an atmosphere the effective range for a well attenuated laser is going to be further than most projectiles, esp. if you only care about melting space suits. 4. They shouldn't be too bulky, compared to most other solutions. That said, fragmentation weapons are still useful for emergency defensive lines due to their one-to-many properties that current lasers lack. And you'd probably want one mobile artillery piece for long distance engagements.

[@floria-loubunda7303]

Ok je sais que personne vont me comprendre parce que je suis francophone . Mais je trouve l'application de la physique terrestre vis à vis l'environnement lunaire vraiment fascinant. J'ai appris tellement de chose, par le billet d'un sujet auquel je n'aurais jamais penser. Sans parler de votre rendu un brin humoristique, je trouve ca impécable. Bref excellente vidéo, merci beaucoup ❤

[@backacheache]

Vous savez que KZbin a une traduction intégrée ?

[@floria-loubunda7303]

Yeah I forgot about that 😂

[@resiliencewithin]

Les français aiment toujours exagérer

[@lumiereforbes8118]

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[@ferdinandramirez7890]

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[@ferdinandramirez7890]

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[@lumiereforbes8118]

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[@lumiereforbes8118]

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[@guaravsharma8601]

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[@jimgtf]

The " Types of Weapons for Defending the Lunar Outpost" charts really made me nostalgic for a game of Rolemaster (or indeed, Space Master.)

[@phatphracker]

That altitude vs range chart from the report said "Davy Crockett" on it. What that weapon vaporized isn't that significant. It was designed primarily to create an overpressure that could damage exposed or unarmored battlefield assets. That's not really going to work that well without an atmosphere, so am I missing something there? I'm kind of disappointed Kyle didn't cover the nuclear component of this plan.

[@markkarasik2211]

true. A neutron bomb might be effective because I doubt spacesuits of the era offered sufficient radiation protection but they hadn't been invented yet.

[@rednecktek2873]

Zombies! Go with zombies! No atmospheric issues, no need for expensive space suits, low maintenance. Brain yogurt tubes are light and small for shipment.

[@GGrimmmm]

I was reading a HFY story about confrontations between Chinese on Lunar base Chang’e and US on Artemis. The commanding officers of each base talked before any fighting could occur and decided to stay neutral despite their home countries going to war. The author described a hand grenade as a WMD in space, as all you’d have to do is punch a hole in a room and you’ve killed everyone there. Like is too fragile in space for us to be killing each other too

[@Salesman9001]

Unless you are using defensive grenades with fragsleeves grenades shouldn't perforate any Lunar stations, or if they do get a few holes from larger fragments then self sealing properties of any lunar base should fix that. Why does defensive grenade make a big difference? They can be huge! 900-1.8kg of explosives and some fragments can be up to 50g in weight

[@MickHaggs]

Honestly, I'd be more surprised if they DIDN'T have plans for lunar military bases and action

[@RecliningWhale]

A slingshot that fires ball bearings while not the fanciest or most advanced tech should work fine. And without drag or an atmosphere to worry about, it should have some insane range.

[@Beaned109]

10:31 I would defend myself with mantis men

[@Pope-enhiemer]

Lasers would suck on the moon when your enemy realizes they can just kick up a dust cloud and be totally protected.

[@superfly9291]

You know what's great. One of those scientists absolutely already had an answer to "What weapons should we use for fighting on the moon?"

[@SnuffitLabs]

Hey Kyle, the pistol on the moon would fail badly for reasons other than the ones you mentioned also. On a pistol (which is an autoloader) the the "slide" is kicked backwards by either recoil or gas pressure from the fired cartridge. That bolt goes over the space between your thumb and the rest of your hand. Big temp controlled astro gloves would be ripped fairly quickly (as have the hands of people who don't know how to properly handle one on Earth. The gas operated pistol like the .50ae Desert Eagle would probably not cycle at all since the gas would probably bleed too much pressure away too quickly as the bullet leaves the barrel. Recoil actuated autoloaders may have a fighting chance of cycling, but here is where the other problem comes in. Autoloaders are tempermental on Earth where our temps stay fairly constant compared to night and day on the moon. The lubricating oil you use in summer generally gets a bit too thick when you get into the single digit temperatures that means your modern autoloading rifle just turned into a musket (you are guaranteed to have the shot loaded in the chamber). If that isn't bad enough, it's been well recorded that the regolith dust got into everything during the moon missions. The last thing you want to get into your firearm is a mix of powdered rock and glass dust. In truth the best firearm, if you really need one in space, is going to be the tried and true design of the revolver (which is a handgun, but not a pistol). While it would still be tempermental about dirt (you still would have to do regular cleanings), the pusher for the cylinder wouldn't be affected at all by how much gravity there is. The cartridges are contained in a metal cylinder so jams will be fairly non-existent compared to a spring-fed magazine. The worst problem you'd have is reloading . . . and that's what speed loaders are for. The best advise I could give though, as an obvious firearm enthusiast, is that there is enough moon for everyone . . . just share it. Rather than fighting with the neighbors, you may need them one day if some of your life support breaks.

[@Gohka]

I do find it quite funny and typically American that they were like "damn guns won't work in space how tf are we meant to shoot eachother then?", "OH I know, what about grenades and landmines!?" while seemingly completely ignoring things like crossbows and spears that I'm sure cost a lot less than a mine.

[@CptJistuce]

The ballistics graph for a Davy Crockett on the lunar surface is the most 60s graph I have ever seen.

[@christopherdriesenga4156]

The problem with fragmentation weapons is that you are throwing hundreds or thousands of fast pieces of metal into random unstable orbits with no way of knowing when and where they might impact the moon again. They could even end up peppering your own troops and equipment.

[@Jerre69]

Looks like the for all mankind series. Really good show.

[@Tinil0]

Death Ray marked "Not yet available but not thought to be too hard" is killing me.

[@TheDiplomancer]

According to the scientific treatise known as "Mass Effect", proximity mines would still be used to defend against someone trying to approach you moon base.

[@robo5013]

I like how in the Netflix show Space Force they were planing on using CO2 BB guns.

[@johnnyd430]

0:14 so you might say... The moon is a harsh mistress? 😎

[@cephaleaorion4888]

9:34 absolutely goated reference

[@ChampionCynthia]

I would defend myself with the Moonlight SY-3 from Destroy All Monsters. Its got a tank, laser guns, laser CANNONS, and is a rocket-shaped VTOL all at once! Perfection.

[@anthonystark5729]

You have to imagine someone reading that at the time going "Mine on a stick? So kind of like a shotgun, then? Why cant we just use shotguns?"

[@jpitt916]

6:56 idea: Space Porcupine launcher!

[@TigerofRobare]

I like how the US Army went from Sputnik to Moon Base two years before Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space. Also, did they consider the logistics of building and supplying a Moon base? I mean, getting the material there is one thing, but how do you build it? Could you operate a construction vehicle on whatever they had for batteries? I imagine the combination of vacuum and extreme temperature would play havoc with hydraulics. Where would the workers sleep and be protected from radiation? How easy is it to dig in the regolith? How would you make concrete without water or weld steal beams without oxygen?

[@mattsgamingstuff5867]

No clue what they planned. But probably assumed that they'd use radioisotope thermoelectric generators to get their first actual reactor and minimal base built. On the intermediate term it looks like the radiation dose rate is around 60 uSv/hr this is roughly 10x what you get while flying in a commercial airliner at max altitude. Probably not great forever, but for 1 month-ish stents starting out pretty managable (cancer risk is more the concern than any actual acute issue). The annual radiation worker limit is 50000 uSv/yr and that would allow 34 days of unshielded moon exposure (and it does not appear that the worker limit poses any real health risk). So you could realistically scrape by without shielding for ~28-30 day windows/year(trying to adjust for transit, may need to lower depending on Van Allen belt dose). If the US military was willing to accept slight cancer risks, they could probably leave people up there a year or two at a time without any major issues (from radiation). Microgravity seems to do some nasty things to the body, and it is not clear if very low gravity will be any kinder (it might be better but no data), so there is more than radiation to consider here. Solar flares are a different matter, but a very small limited use emergency shelter could be a first step item (could use stored water and materials as shielding). The logistics is almost certain what killed it, because that's what makes the price tag ridiculous. Getting all that stuff there would have been an economic non-starter. I'm assuming they planned to bring up prefabbed modules and snap them together on site. After all modular construction was already on people's radar from the start of the concept of a space station. I'm pretty sure digging and more advanced construction capabilities were pretty far down the chain of things to do (I could see an electric powered jackhammer being a thing eventually). The moon radiation dose is 2.6x the space station and we leave people up there for a year or so (the low gravity honestly seems to be a much bigger health hazard than the radiation). Then there are the mental health aspects of prolonged confinement in a small area. Given infinite resources and risk tolerance it could and can be done...but infinite resources don't exist and people have a much more balanced risk appetite.

[@crystalsoulslayer]

"Death Ray: CONS: Not yet available but not thought to be too hard." I might need to read this here document.

[@singular9]

This is why I highly recommend the show "For All Man Kind". Surprisingly accurate.

[@Bad_Wolf_Media]

Dense-coiled concertina wire would be a good start for a defensive perimeter in a vacuum. Yes, it's relatively easy to get through, but if you try to cut it, you're going to risk tears in your suit. If you clear it with explosives, you're going to alert the complex. Add in a very low-power electrical current that will set off an alarm if interrupted, and it doesn't matter HOW it's cut, it's going to give you away. It's simple, minimal installation effort, and minimal upkeep needed.

[@aprildawnsunshine4326]

Make projectiles from moon dust! That stuff is crazy sharp and you'd just need to get it moving fast enough. It'd be like shooting a cloud of razor sharp sand and completely shred anything in it's path.

[@CrankyQuokka]

Why am I getting "Space Force" vibes with poking people with scissors as a valid space combat tactic? 😂

[@ReiAyanami8]

Low G environments might be one of the only times a mech suit makes sense, and even then they're still greatly impractical.

[@rayzor2121]

To answer your question Kyle: A moon dust thrower, don’t want to have to carry ammo around.

[@robertjohnson9187]

The Soviets would have just put bears in space suits but leave their claws poking out for tearing up enemy space suites.

[@fuzzbuzz6581]

I upgraded to 5th Gen Laser Sharks at my lunar Facility. I see you over there "Kyle".

[@generalbutterscotch4887]

I feel like once spacesuits become sleek and maneuverable enough, you'd probably just be able to straight up throw javelins at people to great effect.