The Army's Secret Plan to Conquer the Moon

[@kylehill]

*Thanks for watching!* TO BE CLEAR: I cannot confirm or deny the existence of a [FACILITY] moon base.

[@deleted-something]

Yea but everyone knows [redacted]

[@F3rum]

May I request the link to the documents you were mentioning? I'm curious and want to look at them myself. Thank you for being you.

[@crowdsourcedlife]

Yo Kyle where is that link at? How you gonna lie in a video like that...

[@isturma]

I want you to compare this to the show "For All Mankind." They BUILD a moon base, and so do the Soviets. Also, I'm a monster and I'd have a rocket-propelled net trap that launched them into the black.

[@JayVal90]

history (.) army (.) mil /faq/horizon/Horizon_V1.pdf

[@cthuwu2138]

I am in love the notes on the 'Death Ray' since they essentially translate to "we don't know how it works, probably a laser or something" "We can't make it yet, but surely it's not *that* hard to make a thing that just outright kills people"

[@jakehr3]

It's honestly my favorite bit of this whole lunar base report. "Just throwing it out there: death ray. Any takers? I mean it's pretty self-explanatory" It feels a lot like Dr. Evil's request of sharks with laser beams on their heads, but it turns out that it is not feasible so you just get ill-tempered sea bass.

[@7devin197]

The aliens won’t let us have one yet but Jeff saw it and said it was really cool

[@1dgram]

Doesn't need to be a laser, just a directed electromagnetic ray or perhaps a particle beam could work: X-ray, gamma ray, high-intensity UV/IR, proton accelerator, neutron beam, microwave

[@Earthenfist]

I like the "Particle beam" one. "Works really well, but the equipment's too bulky for man portability". Which suggests that they could have had particle beam emplacements for defensive use.

[@Plystire]

Kinda puts into perspective a bit what current day "off record" military is capable of 🤐

[@FranklyBuilt]

That’s “moons haunted” reference had me dying 😂 bravo sir

[@gamerlucky]

i rather say alien salves 😂😂😂 looking at our "human" terms and history of colonization 😢

[@Bffgjhyfffgg]

Its amazing that it says "Death Ray: Not yet available but not thought to be too hard." And that was in the 60s. And despite never setting up the moon base we still decided to develop Death Rays.

[@hcolider2817]

I'm sure there's any amount of technology that exists that we don't know about, but haven't seen because there hasn't been another large scale conflict that would warrant using it

[@franciscol3510]

@@hcolider2817 And letting the enemy know about it would be fucked up, at the very least we know the US army is developing ''recoilless guns'' which are basically railguns

[@jamesphillips2285]

@@franciscol3510 Railguns have huge recoil. Recoilless rifles are rockets (with reaction mass to push against). Were you perhaps thinking of "Caseless ammunition"?

[@musewolfman]

I'm loving the one above it (Dumbo II): "Lighter and more accurate than Davy Crockett" Then in the very next box, "heavy and takes up a lot of space." The Davy Crockett was supposed to be a man-portable nuclear mortar.

[@SG-tx1fz]

I'm thinking more like lasers

[@rhyael3933]

My grandfather, William Collopy, worked on a few of these renderings in the reports. I remember him telling me stories of how he had a single office with a guard and locks on his trashcan. He always said, "Someday I can tell you more, but these things won't be declassified for a long time after I'm gone." So when the renderings at the 1 min mark started showing my jaw dropped. Figure 1-13 I think is the Lockheed Martin Apollo module that he would have worked on.

[@sithdude2436]

That's so cool!

[@shugucchi]

Yo someone get this gguy more likes to have a pin

[@darkthrone56]

Very cool. How where things like this rendered back then? Or is this like a matte painting?

[@rhyael3933]

@@darkthrone56 Often there would be more than one person working on a drawing. My Grandpa for example did a lot of the line work and someone else would do the hand-rendering in pencil and ink. He would work with his mentor Ludwik Ziemba who did the bulk of the renderings but over time as he learned my Grandpa would also render. Mike Acs's flikr account has gathered so many wonderful scans of the works. Many I never saw due to classifications.

[@jakefromstatefarm1405]

that sir, is bad ass

[@michaelmclaughlin4488]

The fact they made a graph for the Davy Crockett mini nuke is just as insane as everything else the military was up to in the 50s and 60s but somehow more mental

[@grahamfisher5436]

Think 🤔 StarFish Prime 🌌🔆🌌 😉

[@glasstuna]

Focused on winning no matter the consequences. That was the problem. Still is to some extent.

[@SirBilliam96]

With current technology, regular firearms could easily be made viable for use on the moon. To fix the aiming issue, all that would need development is an electronic system that links into a helmet mounted display to show where the barrel is pointing, similar to how we use IR lasers to aim rifles with night vision. Since recoil would be an issue, we could use cartridges with a lower powder charge. But let's be even more realistic: Automatic turrets surrounding the base would be much easier to implement since they won't miss and can actually take hits without worrying about dying.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

Yeah, and for that matter just seeding the area with remote frag mines in ridiculous numbers could be very effective. Obviously a combined arms approach is better, but then again, if moon soldiers are bouncing around on foot in the open in fragile pressure suits, they probably deserve a Darwin Award anyway.

[@dewlittle1211]

Regarding the electronic system and HUD you are talking about. It already exists. And they both just started being deployed in the US army this year. They are called the IVAS and the NGSW-Fire control which are separate but related programs. I believe it wouldn’t be very hard to reprogram them for a lunar environment. I imagine they would probably be even more useful on the moon due to the weight factor of them becoming null, and being able to take advantage of the longer distances bullets would be able to travel.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

@@LDSG_A_Team vacuum welding of parts for weapons? I would assume that until a colony is able to produce material from raw form all the way to a finished product, it would be far more cost efficienct to ship nearly everything up there in complete form, at least for complex machinery like weapons. Less unused material to transport, only the bare minimum needs to go on a rocket.

[@giggityguy]

This is canonically how UNSC weapons work in the Halo universe. The "Smart Link" uses directional data for your weapon and adds a reticle as an overlay to the user's HUD. This is why a lot of the marines have a visor or a little digital monocle.

[@ZJ_Rubicon]

Can't you just put a Lazer on a rifle? If you zero the Lazer and rifle on the moon it would probably be basically point of aim point of impact out to at least 100yards.

[@sweetrocks610]

Damn did they find oil on the moon?

[@interstellarsurfer]

Just trying to keep the commies from equitably distributing the moon dust.

[@bradleygeiman9070]

They found something

[@RadBruce.]

Did someone say OIL?

[@orealz]

Time to bring freedom to the moon!

[@Ahrpigi]

Do you mean FREEDOM JUICE?!?! 🦅🇺🇲💥

[@jussim15]

Now i'm imagining a world where the Soviet Union never colapses and we ended up with a Lunar war.

[@jollygreeng1]

*cough cough* watch "For All Mankind" *cough*

[@pavuk357]

@@jollygreeng1 it is nice but tbh by season 4 they did a lot of changes and ignored some stuff for ussr to survive past 90s that makes it hard for me to take it seriously.

[@dionisisschoinas5918]

Check out a series called "For All Mankind"

[@mitaskeledzija6269]

Ty for the recommendation bois

[@bobfurguson1721]

boy do i have a show for you. For all mankind on apple tv

[@jasonpapai]

When defending your Lunar Base, always remember to have sufficient amoonition.

[@CodSlap]

The scifi show ’For All Mankind’ explores this 60s-moon-colony stuff pretty nicely.

[@1Meme2UniteThemAll]

found on Apple TV

[@JonBrownSherman]

Kyle went full Warhammer 40k logic with that frozen meat dust line

[@musewolfman]

That is literally the NASA plan for if an astronaut passes away on the space station and Earth can't send someone up. Well, except for the fertilizer bit, but that is kinda the next logical step.

[@EmissaryOfStuff]

I think someone was having a lot of fun coming up with Project Horizon.

[@ApothecaryTerry]

"What did you do today honey?" "I designed a *moon base!*" "Oh that's nice, I'm getting a divorce, you never see the kids anymore and we never make love. Why don't you love me anymore?" Sorry, the story quickly got tangential.

[@sdfkjgh]

@@ApothecaryTerry: That's ok, he's already on the rebound with Selene.

[@KrossFire330]

things like scaled down crossbows would work pretty well. Very accurate with no gravity and drag, plus they only need to be big enough to puncture space-suits. Could basically have a fully automatic, magnetic rail-gun that fires small metallic 'bolts', which are automatically (and rapidly) fed into the launcher.

[@truthseeker2321]

They would be better, but you would need an abundance of arrows or bolts. If you missed your target, they would keep on flying until hitting something far away.

[@nateg08]

Crossbow wouldn't work in a vacuum. The fetchings on the bolt (arrow) are what keep the flight stable. With no atmosphere the the bolt would end up tumbling. You might hit with the tip, or the knock, or sideways. At very close range it might be OK, but any real distance would be no good. Think of it like firing a stick from a bow here on earth.

[@ironnj]

Slingshot with caltrops

[@wren_.]

@@truthseeker2321 maybe a harpoon that could be reeled in then? it’s big, clunky, and sharp enough to pierce a space suit.

[@sillygreatjaggi7946]

Jorg spraves magazine fed crossbows

[@scarletletter4900]

The more I learn about the basics mechanics of war in space, the more I think that waging war in space is a catastrophically bad idea.

[@Tej132]

Waging war in itself is a bad idea

[@scarletletter4900]

@@Tej132 fair point.

[@blackoutalt2339]

counter argument: it would look really cool though

[@scarletletter4900]

@@blackoutalt2339 that's a very weak counterargument, unless you're really that into "strongman" nonsense.

[@blackoutalt2339]

@@scarletletter4900 The joke ^ Your head

[@nathancarter8239]

We did an experiment once in a leadership class to show the strength of groups wherein we were trapped on the dark side of the moon and had to rank a list of items to bring with us in our trip to return to the moon base, and we were into either individuals trying to survive (the category I was a part of) or a group of people trying to survive (and pulling more expertise to sort the items). I managed to skew the data by doing as well as or better than the groups (that's STEM, baby!), but one of the items caught me off-guard: a pistol. I discarded matches because there's no air, and I discounted the pistol for the same reason, only for it to be revealed that the pistol can act as a means of propulsion in desperate situations. So I was at least aware going into this video that pistols do work in space, but I had no idea they'd be so dangerous.

[@learner_of_light]

A pistol can be a means of propulsion in zero-gravity, but trying to use it to propel yourself on the moon which has a whopping 1/6th of Earth's gravity seems very dubious.

[@Salesman9001]

@@learner_of_light You can do IRL rocket jumps on the moon with a large caliber pistol! 1cm higher per shot! Assuming you already jumped really hard

[@Bob5mith]

@@learner_of_light You were supposed to jump then shoot. Using an inflatable raft to carry stuff was a much less dubious revelation.

[@spvillano]

@@Bob5mith if it's a self-inflating raft, the charges could be useful - not on the moon, but in spaaaaaaace. You know, a real life iron man and far less well guided. Brief bursts could work - maybe. Sustained, x=rnd movement. For that example though, that's a lot dicey. When giving a class, I try to smooth such wide variables out to prove a point, then employ socratic methods to discuss why it was smoothed. One SME or even experienced STEM person now is the SME and the rest, bozos. Bozos win clown games, not real life situations. But, can have bursts of brilliant insight, which is the value of a group that otherwise is going to spout useless nonsense. Leading to the adage, committees - no one is as dumb as all of us combined. A not so gentle reminder that while we might blunder as a group to a solution, it's just as likely we'll come up with the bonehead award for the decade, proceed accordingly, leader. Included in my class, "admit when you fucked up, everyone does and accepts that, they mistrust the 'perfect, dear leader' accordingly, whereas they forgive a fuck up". And listen to, "This is going to sound dumb", that might just lead to an idea that'll get you out of the shit. It has for me. And I've been in far too many "in the shit" situations over the decades than I care to count. Boy, am I glad to be retired from the military!

[@Bob5mith]

@@spvillano I misremembered. This is the actual assignment: Scenario: You are a member of a space crew originally scheduled to rendezvous with a mother ship on the lighted surface of the moon. However, due to mechanical difficulties, your ship was forced to land at a spot some 200 miles from the rendezvous point. During reentry and landing, much of the equipment aboard was damaged and, since survival depends on reaching the mother ship, the most critical items available must be chosen for the 200-mile trip. Below are listed the 15 items left intact and undamaged after landing. Your task is to rank order them in terms of their importance for your crew in allowing them to reach the rendezvous point. Box of matches Food concentrate 50 feet of nylon rope Parachute silk Portable heating unit Two .45 calibre pistols One case of dehydrated milk Two 100 lb. tanks of oxygen Stellar map Self-inflating life raft Magnetic compass 20 litres of water Signal flares First aid kit, including injection needle Solar-powered FM receiver-transmitter

[@HiR0SHi.the.D0G]

You can never have to many moonbases

[@Kyuuwai]

US Army irl: " Make a moon base " US Army in movies: *_"NUKE IT"_*

[@chrisgaming9567]

One of the charts shown in this video literally shows the path of a projectile carrying a nuclear warhead on the moon

[@uselesscrap2701]

@@chrisgaming9567 apparently they also planed to use Davy Crockett according to the wikipedia article, but i will read the full original to make sure.

[@deathangellink]

i think a weapon already created before called "metal storm" would be the best candidate, it was a project of making a weapon using a series of encased ammo that was electrically discharged, the system was so adaptive that you could suit it to any shape necessary, and also can adjust the rate of fire as you wish, with a hypothetically rate of fire of 1 MILLIONS rpm, which basically make the gun a big shotgun

[@mr.ackermann807]

Never heard of that before. I would use a modified grenade that has smaller shrapnel for more area covered and eithervthrown or launched by high psi has gun or folded spring loaded metal arm like those spears that have a hold handle with a groove to get extra leverage of the range. The shielding is another design but don't fully know its works. All this back then.

[@airplanenut89]

I remember Metal Storm, could possibly be a decent idea for defense.

[@butchbabytoaster]

Funnily enough, Starfield has a few weapons that work on the same principle. I don't remember their names because I watched one video talking about them once, but there's 3 of them.

[@evolutionarydeadend6812]

I remember it being featured on Future Weapons. Blew my mind at the time Lol but so did the the AA12 when it was featured on FW

[@JediJerry630]

7:48 “Lunatics” is an underrated pun 😂

[@dovahkat9635]

Given the conditions, I'd unironically say that a crossbow or something similar would work quite well. Low tech, doesn't need gunpowder, magnets, etc. And the bolts can be modified to suit the situation. Use a standard metal bolt for precision shooting, or swap it out for an explosive bolt to cause some chaos.

[@nathanh6439]

My first thought was low tech via crossbows or spring launched projectiles, too.

[@LolWutMikehSM]

Without air to stabilize the fins, or at least with "much less" "air" i wage bows would behave pretty weird

[@Imperial_Lizardgirl]

Modern crossbows? Sounds like a cheat! Certainly needs to be used.

[@orchdork775]

Operating that with big astronaut gloves seems difficult

[@AnonymousAnarchist2]

​@@orchdork775Wellllll. The bulky space suits we became familure with where not the first, not the ones planned for the US military. The first, and the ones the military had lined up where skin tight rubberized suits, cooling was acomplished via evaporation of sweat through the suit; in a vacuum sweat is far more effective, and warmth was provided by an fairly normal flightsuit that was metalized to reflect excess solar heat, and trap in warm ice crystals formed by the body. This worked increadibly well in our first missions to orbit, but it had some downside for the scientific community This suit design was abandoned in orbital flights and the Apollo mission because in zero gravity the sweat would get everywhere and there was a possibly it could corrode or otherwise short out electronics, and an certainty that it would corrupt any scientific data gathered. We needed moon rocks that had not been chemically altered by human sweat after all, and we also did not want to keep paying for all that extra weight that came from coating all electronics in rubber to keep it safe.

[@dolphin2.0.]

7:23 DON'T SHOOT! I'M WITH THE SCIENCE TEAM!

[@sertandoom4693]

Armored suits were a thing in science fiction- Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein published in 1959. If one side's strategy is punch holes in suit, the other side might find a way to counter that.

[@immaTraitor]

I was also immediately thinking of weaponized stinging, pinching arthropods in tiny space suits. Lunacrabs for the win!

[@Psycotimis]

love that the graph for trajectory altitude vs range was for the Davy Crocket.

[@chrisgaming9567]

I noticed that too

[@SymbioteMullet]

5:58 that diagram says Davy Crockett. They were considering using shoulder launched nukes on the moon!

[@DavidRichardson153]

In fairness, this was before the Outer Space Treaty was in place, so it was going to be considered. Maybe this played a part in the treaty's creation.

[@SymbioteMullet]

@DavidRichardson153 Quite likely. Or it was Elon Musk going back in time because he wants to be the one to nuke the moon first. Never can tell with that weirdo.

[@bigbluealien1]

Was going to say those are some strong shoulders you've get there, but maybe you can shoulder launch a Davy Crockett on the moon, would be lighter and is recoilless

[@benjaminhogan9607]

Honestly I think you could. You might want a bipod, a nice rock to set up on, and a buddy to help out, but it sounds doable.

[@Phantom0fTheRouter]

Davy Crockett was vehicle borne, smaller Dumbo II was explored for moon ops.

[@jozak78]

Awesome, that graph for weapon trajectory was for the Davey Crockett, a tactical nuclear weapon

[@kidwithadoomguyhelm471]

never thought an unrelated video about moon bases and the government would be great criticism for starfields gun design

[@dean.9731]

I’d imagine razorwire would be incredibly busted on the moon as a form of base Defense

[@Leispada]

Yes, but dont underestimate the casual jump So fences need to be high and wide

[@boosterh1113]

Yes and no. On the moon, coming into contact with razor wire goes from mildly annoying to lethal, but because of low gravity, it is much easier to bypass an earth scale barrier. Your razor wire would either need to be extremely high or (more likely) a field 20m thick.

[@callak_9974]

Imagine trying to put that much stuff down while in a spacesuit....

[@Leith_Crowther]

In additional to the normal jump, we can also expect space soldiers to have a gas propellant to shortly propel them some direction in the air. Not only do you have to defend yourself from a jump, you have to defend against a double jump. Razor wire would at best be an effective delay in some kind of choke point.

[@mastermind3660]

Something similar to project horizon is the plan/research nasa did to create a self-replicating lunar factory in 1982 apart of a conference it’s specific name is “Replicating systems concepts: Self-replicating lunar factory and demonstration” with illustrations too :)

[@danielreimer3292]

I was hoping you'd talk about the development of the gyrojet! It was actually made and I believe it was intended for space war. Love your videos!

[@JosephHarner]

It's also a load of hot garbage, sadly. The low initial projectile speed combined with inconsistent thrust made for a highly inaccurate weapon. Because it took significant time/distance to get up to speed, it also was completely ineffective at close range. The concept isn't all bad. Throw in some electronics for guidance, and a faster-burning initial launch charge (such as seen in recoilless guns like the M3 MAAWS), and you might be able to make something halfway practical (albeit terribly expensive).

[@KristovMars]

I was waiting for that too (I grew up playing TSRs Star Frontiers). But michelin men bouncing around shooting shotguns is pretty crazy so I'm not complaining.

[@05Matz]

I was always wondering if an SMG-sized Gyrojet gun with a very large capacity might be a good weapon for suppressive fire for a unit on the move. @@JosephHarner They'd be relatively light because the 'cases' are part of the projectile weight, and the barrel and other components do not need to be pressure-bearing nor is a long barrel helpful, and the terrible accuracy (probably merely 'poor' accuracy with better-made ammunition?) might not hinder it that much when spraying 'from the hip' to keep enemies from shooting at you while you move? But the Cyberpunk 'smart' direction is also an option popular in fiction. Technically DARPA already demonstrated a laser-guided .50 BMG round simply steering itself with some kind of aerodynamic device, something self-propelled would be nice but not actually necessary for (gently) guided bullets.

[@IanPendleton-gh6ox]

The first thought that came to my mind on the subject of weapons on the moon was modifying military shotguns so that they could be fired safely on the moon. Shotguns already fire shot instead of normal bullets, and those shells could also be modified so that one doesn't need precise aiming to puncture holes in enemy astronauts. If anyone else has something to add on to this idea or knows some flaw that I missed, I'd love to hear about it.

[@IHTACast]

It seems like the best option would be an incredibly high potency laser that could compromise the integrity of the space suit’s pressurized material.

[@Killtime1013]

I bet this "frag gun" would be the earlier equivalent to the eventual flak cannon from the unreal tournament.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

What a great series

[@XboneMalone]

As Kyle probably eluded to - all D2 players know the moon's haunted L7 guardian

[@TheOneLookGamer]

Had to scroll waaay too far to find someone who mentioned this!!!

[@Texmatt21]

Kyle you HAVE GOT to watch For All Mankind. Its an alt-history space race where the soviets were the first to land on the moon. The changes to the timeline are fascinating and include moon bases, men on mars by 1994, and a female president.

[@SeverinHawkland7855]

That sounds better. Way better.

[@silverbullet5632]

I would simply describe it as an alt-history where the space race didn't end. Describing it as you do is a bit of a spoiler as the race to the moon happens during the events of the show.

[@fouchi3203]

For All Manking is goated, Apple really produce a good show

[@Racecarlock]

I really don't like that that show has basically obscured the national geographic documentary about the apollo program that has the same name. Even if it is a good show.

[@fouchi3203]

@@Racecarlock what if it gave it more exposure tho

[@backwoodsjunkie08]

Id say a low pressure birdshot/#4 would do the trick! Maybe adding rifling to all shotgun barrels would also help spread the shoot out as well

[@SnuffitLabs]

Hey Kyle, the pistol on the moon would fail badly for reasons other than the ones you mentioned also. On a pistol (which is an autoloader) the the "slide" is kicked backwards by either recoil or gas pressure from the fired cartridge. That bolt goes over the space between your thumb and the rest of your hand. Big temp controlled astro gloves would be ripped fairly quickly (as have the hands of people who don't know how to properly handle one on Earth. The gas operated pistol like the .50ae Desert Eagle would probably not cycle at all since the gas would probably bleed too much pressure away too quickly as the bullet leaves the barrel. Recoil actuated autoloaders may have a fighting chance of cycling, but here is where the other problem comes in. Autoloaders are tempermental on Earth where our temps stay fairly constant compared to night and day on the moon. The lubricating oil you use in summer generally gets a bit too thick when you get into the single digit temperatures that means your modern autoloading rifle just turned into a musket (you are guaranteed to have the shot loaded in the chamber). If that isn't bad enough, it's been well recorded that the regolith dust got into everything during the moon missions. The last thing you want to get into your firearm is a mix of powdered rock and glass dust. In truth the best firearm, if you really need one in space, is going to be the tried and true design of the revolver (which is a handgun, but not a pistol). While it would still be tempermental about dirt (you still would have to do regular cleanings), the pusher for the cylinder wouldn't be affected at all by how much gravity there is. The cartridges are contained in a metal cylinder so jams will be fairly non-existent compared to a spring-fed magazine. The worst problem you'd have is reloading . . . and that's what speed loaders are for. The best advise I could give though, as an obvious firearm enthusiast, is that there is enough moon for everyone . . . just share it. Rather than fighting with the neighbors, you may need them one day if some of your life support breaks.

[@joewilson3393]

These plans the military comes up with can be amusing sometimes. Like the one for a zombie apocalypse. They make them to train junior officers on how to plan this stuff out on the scale needed for higher ranks. They give them absurd scenario's like zombies or mass riots over ice cream shortages and stuff like that.

[@GotMyTowel42]

that is awesome

[@robo5013]

The military actually has a Zombie Protocol. It's in case of some kind of massive, quick spreading bacterial or viral outbreak. Once initiated all military personnel have 24 hours to make it to the nearest military instillation, doesn't matter what branch of service, and after that 24 hours anything that moves within firing range of the perimeter gets taken out. Go ahead and say that it's BS but I live in the middle of the world's largest concentration of military might. The headquarters of the USAF is less than 5 minutes from my house. Norfolk Navy Base, HQ of US Atlantic Fleet and the largest navy base in the world is 15 minutes away. Air Station Oceanna, where the Navy parks its aircraft when the carriers are in port (and when they are in port they are at the Newport News Shipyard getting repaired/overhauled, 20 minutes from my house), is less than an hour away. It is also the HQ of the Navy Seals. There are also numerous Marine Corps bases, Weapon Depots and Army bases within an hour of my home as well. I have talked to many service personnel and more than one has told me about the Zombie Protocol. I never ask them about it so they aren't agreeing to a question just to fvck with me. All I have to do is party with them and start talking about zombies and occasionally one will talk about it.

[@alementary]

lol glad to be in the timeline where this is happening

[@Glyph8888]

Loving the space videos you're making recently! Working on a hard sci-fi project and it's really good inspiration Edit: Finished the video, and I think I'd defend a moon base with a fragmentation projectile, but perhaps since you don't need too much piercing power, coilgun technology could work if more developed to reduce issues such as recoil and bringing gunpowder on a spaceship

[@jaredmills06]

If I were equiping ground troops, and using them against modern space walk systems, I would probably go with something like a micro cross bow bolt with a bladed head, about the size of a .17 or .22 long rifle bullet, held in sabot and fired, with a light powder load, from a .410 shotgun platform with a rifled barrel to impart spin; spin is CRITICAL. Modern space suits are made with kevlar and other materials which are suitable for stopping small caliber amunition, much like soft body armour, however bladed arrows and bolts are not stopped by kevlar. Without the shearing force of the blade, a much larger caliber round is needed which will impart more recoil. Since making a hole IS the goal, we only need to penetrate the suit just enough to expose the interior to vacuum and so small caliber bolts would be sufficient. The biggest problem however, is stabilisation. With no drag to stabilise the shaft with the fletchings, the sabot must impart sufficient spin to maintain stability through gyroscopic force, otherwise it will be just as useless as a .22 against the space suit.

[@royrogers3133]

Artillery rounds on the moon could travel hundreds of miles. Imagine shelling soviets on the other side of the moon right after you detect that their guns have fired and just waiting for their rounds to hit you.

[@chuckles819]

I just like the idea that they spent the amount of time on boom sticks and not the crushing radiation you would get from being on the moon constantly.

[@learner_of_light]

That's why the moon bases in those illustrations were underground.

[@chuckles819]

@@learner_of_light unless you stayed underground, it would still be a nightmare on the surface, every time you went, though. You'd probably have to have short allotments for service time in any lunar base. It seems like a non-starter to me that we don't have a way of dealing with constant radiation issues beyond walling ourselves off from the source of it, yet.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

But what about nuclear waste radiation! 😅

[@chuckles819]

@@IllustriousCrocoduck that's actually not a problem. We can bury it or just leave it in containment on site. It's not dangerous beyond our ability to tell future generations when our society crumbles from opening it up.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

@@chuckles819 it was a joke.

[@aleks5405]

To be fair, modern day anti-air laser turret might be a good backbone for base defence on the moon. It doesn't require ammunition but would need enormous battery banks for sustained combat. Also, diversifying the armanent is also important. Fragmentation based weaponry is possibly the best option on the surface but I'm not sold on them being used inside a base.

[@DougVanDorn]

Yep, and you don't have to worry about weather effects on your lasers on the Moon, either. Clouds won't block or reduce the energy of your beam, or spread it. And from the other side, you can't kill innocent flocks of birds that happen to be flying by with a laser emplacement on the Moon, or mess with the weather by repeatedly superheating tubes of air your laser beam passes through on the way to its target.

[@kmodo93]

Pigeon guided rotary shotgun turrets! But it is kind of insane that at one point there was something that was actually considered too expensive for the US military to exploit...

[@kentslocum]

I'm pretty sure there's an entire TV show about the Soviets and Americans establishing military outposts on the moon.

[@ethanwilliams9235]

listening to this grinding blind well, wasn't expecting "moon's haunted" or "space wizards" lol. Love your content Kyle!

[@F_the_G]

Man I would really love to see 30+ minute videos from you. Just from time to time.

[@AlkisGD]

Imagine a game like Elite Dangerous with planetary combat and proper physics. It could end up being hella fun!

[@DecafKauffee]

$58 billion? That’s only twice as much as it’ll cost to fix the Boston subway system!

[@rogerreger9631]

But would some how be considered to expensive to do due to “reasons “ and “increase cost of taxes”

[@brefasdra]

$58bn in 1960 dollars to now is 600bn

[@DecafKauffee]

@@brefasdra That’s what I get for commenting before finishing the video 💀 I’m too ashamed to delete my mistake

[@ericdanielski4802]

Nice video.

[@themarlboromandalorian]

Yeah everybody needs to read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". Nobody will need to speculate on it anymore.

[@sdfkjgh]

10:30 Acid-laced cream pies & buckshot-filled rubber chickens. *I'MONNABE SPAEC JOKER!!!*

[@rantingrodent416]

Seems like the ideal would be something that uses lunar regolith as ammunition, given the difficulty of maintaining supply lines when orbital mechanics make your supply route to the moon very predicable.

[@jasonreed7522]

Another option is to make what is effectively a CRT TV but remove the screen and crank the power to get a highly steerable electron beam. The only input and moving part is the electricity. The downside is that it would probably get declared a warcrime if it isn't already. (And magnets could be used to deflect the beams, but i assume its possible to find a speed and firing angle that ensures the beam always hits.)

[@rantingrodent416]

@@jasonreed7522 you're just describing the theoretical "death ray"

[@jasonreed7522]

@@rantingrodent416 good point, I'm used to deathray being a generic term from fiction where a cartoon villain shoots someone with it and they disintegrate. I suppose IRL death rays are just any beam weapon that kills quickly. Probably the most important factor is figuring out how to make an immediately lethal dose portable and safe to operate. (A failed deathray would probably be a cancer gun, and that is definitely a war crime and not useful for battle)

[@TheArklyte]

I feel like the whole weapons report relies heavily of there not being any "lunar BMP/IFV" present. Humanity in 1958: we can colonize, industrialize and militarize the Moon in 7 years Humanity in 2023: we can maybe go back by 2030... but likely won't. Because it's not profitable so I can't get a fifth yacht out of it.

[@Sir-Green13]

I think melee weapons and shields could go a long way. You just need something that punctures. Nothing better than pointy objects such as swords axes spears halberds and daggers. Maybe a mace for transfer of kinetic energy would be interesting. ( plus a spaceman knight would be so cool!)

[@southernfriedwestcoaster]

Space knight does sound cool👍

[@lanceleader2]

Space knight you say, look for The British Interplanetary Society Lunar Spacesuit from 1949@@southernfriedwestcoaster

[@Flesh_Wizard]

Chainsword combat for the Emperor

[@KristovMars]

Now I'm evisioning US Army Space Knights armed with a spear-cannon. It's a spear, with a built-in shotgun. It's almost straight out of 40k, and yet would be entirely practical in a mid-60s Lunar skirmish.

[@ntdscherer]

I'm reminded of the saying "don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

[@RJ_Ehlert]

I never expected it to be an actual broomstick.

[@lethalxlegion8738]

"Moon's haunted" is still one of my favorite meme's ever. Thank you for adding this 🤣🤣

[@sourabsharma3803]

Jason Mamoa Lite version! 😂

[@Chaedron1]

I would think deployable drones with ball bearing like projectiles would be the best way to defend a moon base from Russia or China as the case may be. Ones that use a gas propellant to maintain its position in space. You could just have a line of them sitting a few hundred feet off the ground ready to shoot any space suited trespassers and decompress their suit. You would also probably have surveillance satellites orbiting the moon too with some sort of defense capabilities like lasers or more projectiles capable of taking out large numbers of troops.

[@Imperial_Lizardgirl]

Stealth Raptor bio-drones, with spear throwers mounted on the back 😂 anyway nice idea.

[@randompheidoleminor3011]

These would be susceptible to electronic jamming, standoff weapons, or even something as simple an up-armoured moon rover. Considering the moon's lower gravity armoured vehicles will be able to have much more armour than Earth tanks and weigh the same, and a ball bearing isn't really an effective armour-piercing projectile.

[@Chaedron1]

@@randompheidoleminor3011 Well I was thinking more for anti-troop defense. But if we are talking tanks then drones and satellites would have a similar a similar advantage in being able to carry heavier loads. Satellites could easily carry anti-tank ballistics and if you have ever seen the moon lander tanks would still be super awkward going over the moon terrain. And would be less maneuverable than a more agile drone floating in space being maneuvered by gas thrusters. I also assumed that any electronics would shielded from magnetic interference as a matter of course. Though, EMP could likely knock out any communication between drones and base so they would neeed an AI backup to return home or perform evasive maneuvers until comms is reestablished.

[@ntdscherer]

Why floating drones to defend a fixed position rather than land mines? I think you would want the drones for attack, not defense.

[@sid2112]

I first read of Project Horizon in the 1990s. I feel we got cheated out of something awesome.

[@THarSul]

fun fact: death rays are possible without access to exotic radiation, because another means of taking out a combatant in space would be with heat; it should be possible to use a high power infrared laser to exceed the capacity of the enemy suit's thermal regulation systems, giving the opponent severe heatstroke at lower power levels, and baking them alive on the lethal end of the spectrum.

[@Jerre69]

Looks like the for all mankind series. Really good show.

[@Blasharga]

could a shrapnel fragment, or gun projectile fly all the way around the moon and hit you in the back (like in cartoons?) Lets say you have a base with claymores shooting fragments in a 180 degree cone. Imagine that.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

No, it would still eventually be pulled down. Most of the time. Maybe some smart person can crunch numbers and figure out the point at which certain sized projectiles could escape its gravity if fired with enough force.

[@learner_of_light]

No. You'd need a more powerful gun than even a sniper rifle. 1,681 m/s is how fast the shot needs to go. And even then, it will orbit irregularly and crash into the moon eventually because the moon has uneven density, and thus gravity. Read up on "mascons".

[@chrisgaming9567]

Yes, provided that you're shooting the projectile horizontally at the right speed and that there's no terrain in it's trajectory. There were even specific designs for "moon guns" with projectile velocities slow enough to avoid the possibility of projectiles entering orbit.

[@adamxei9073]

God I need to stay off the coffee.

[@floria-loubunda7303]

Ok je sais que personne vont me comprendre parce que je suis francophone . Mais je trouve l'application de la physique terrestre vis à vis l'environnement lunaire vraiment fascinant. J'ai appris tellement de chose, par le billet d'un sujet auquel je n'aurais jamais penser. Sans parler de votre rendu un brin humoristique, je trouve ca impécable. Bref excellente vidéo, merci beaucoup ❤

[@backacheache]

Vous savez que KZbin a une traduction intégrée ?

[@floria-loubunda7303]

Yeah I forgot about that 😂

[@resiliencewithin]

Les français aiment toujours exagérer

[@milokiss8276]

Shotgun for vacuum situations, But also note that an amount of situations would call for fighting INSIDE stations- Thus, You would need something that won’t damage your own station’s hull.

[@spreadItWide]

So much for the moon... I hope a government doesn't reach it first... especially ours. But they do have the best chances of accomplishing it right now.

[@coreytaylor5386]

I hope they do, it would be so badass to have the 51st state be the fucking moon, on top of the moon's resources it would cement the US as being the dominant power in space and earth for centuries to come if it was even close to break even costs to export the most valuable of the minerals and metals to earth.

[@battlelawlz3572]

The United States would be the state that SHOULD be there first. You think Ukraine got it’s defense budget out of thin air, think Taiwan has a large Navy to keep China out? Think NATO can defend itself without the help of the “world’s police” ? Grow up bro.

[@spreadItWide]

@@coreytaylor5386 how about "no power" in space. No countries. If someone builds something on another planet, you get to have as much space as you need to build your structure. Governments don't own the Universe, no more being a prisoner and a slave.

[@Vexas345]

I wouldn't be mad to make it just a NATO base. Someone has to protect the poor thing from Russian "landers".

[@Totalinternalreflection]

​@@battlelawlz3572wtaf?

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[@guaravsharma8601]

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[@paperizzy]

Can they just give us healthcare lol

[@orealz]

Don't have the budget for it lol 🤥

[@davidioanhedges]

@@mopspear The Average US citizen pays more for healthcare in taxes than the average EU citizen ... and then the US citizen has to also get Health insurance so they can access healthcare .... the taxes only provide Medicare and Medicade which they don't qualify for ..but somehow cost more than universal healthcare elsewhere ...

[@Vexas345]

The US Army already has universal health care.

[@WouldntULikeToKnow.]

@paperizzy, exactly what I was thinking.

[@phatphracker]

That altitude vs range chart from the report said "Davy Crockett" on it. What that weapon vaporized isn't that significant. It was designed primarily to create an overpressure that could damage exposed or unarmored battlefield assets. That's not really going to work that well without an atmosphere, so am I missing something there? I'm kind of disappointed Kyle didn't cover the nuclear component of this plan.

[@markkarasik2211]

true. A neutron bomb might be effective because I doubt spacesuits of the era offered sufficient radiation protection but they hadn't been invented yet.

[@johnnyd430]

0:14 so you might say... The moon is a harsh mistress? 😎

[@gelya420]

2:52 gay moose

[@Oveewankenobi]

First

[@TaeSunWoo]

I was watching moonbase related stuff last night then I wake up to this video 8 hours later? Alright Kyle, you’re working hard I see

[@jimgtf]

The " Types of Weapons for Defending the Lunar Outpost" charts really made me nostalgic for a game of Rolemaster (or indeed, Space Master.)

[@linzalabamaawake5230]

Will you please do an episode with all of the classified or declassified government documents/projects/operations, etc? pLEASE❤❤❤

[@GGrimmmm]

I was reading a HFY story about confrontations between Chinese on Lunar base Chang’e and US on Artemis. The commanding officers of each base talked before any fighting could occur and decided to stay neutral despite their home countries going to war. The author described a hand grenade as a WMD in space, as all you’d have to do is punch a hole in a room and you’ve killed everyone there. Like is too fragile in space for us to be killing each other too

[@Salesman9001]

Unless you are using defensive grenades with fragsleeves grenades shouldn't perforate any Lunar stations, or if they do get a few holes from larger fragments then self sealing properties of any lunar base should fix that. Why does defensive grenade make a big difference? They can be huge! 900-1.8kg of explosives and some fragments can be up to 50g in weight

[@WildfangShadowFox]

Weapons I would use - Sling shot (+ Moon Gravel = endless ammunition) - a knife - another knife but on a stick ( increases range) - reverse psychology - Moon Dancing especially Moon Walk to demoralize the opponent

[@MrStrumTheory]

“Moon’s haunted” reference was appreciated. 👍🏻

[@jonathanwessner3456]

Rail guns with flechette ammo. create a "core" that blows the flechette apart at a set range so it expands as a cloud. Bunch of sharp, high speed, "darts" would probably shred spacesuits, unless they are armored in such a way as to make them even slower, putting them into your fire zone longer

[@joshuakarr-BibleMan]

3:45 Give your secrets to a company so they can go look for them on the internet. I can't think how this could possibly go wrong.

[@adamattwood5097]

I find it interesting that we commonly use the word “defense” when talking about weapons designed for attacking . To me defense is the opposite of attacking. Such things as a castle wall, a shield, or body armor are things that stop or slow an attack. It’s almost like humanity has forgotten that defense and counter attack are not the same thing.

[@robert17282]

3 UST 2410), but it is more commonly known as the Outer Space Treaty of 1967. Article 2 of this treaty states that no nation can make a territorial claim to any celestial bodies.

[@Beaned109]

10:31 I would defend myself with mantis men

[@Bad_Wolf_Media]

Dense-coiled concertina wire would be a good start for a defensive perimeter in a vacuum. Yes, it's relatively easy to get through, but if you try to cut it, you're going to risk tears in your suit. If you clear it with explosives, you're going to alert the complex. Add in a very low-power electrical current that will set off an alarm if interrupted, and it doesn't matter HOW it's cut, it's going to give you away. It's simple, minimal installation effort, and minimal upkeep needed.

[@locke03]

I think my moon weapon of choice would be a VR suicide drone powered by cold gas thrusters and equipped with payload that worked like a scaled-down M30A1 warhead. They could hit targets at shorter ranges using their own power, or a electromagnetic catapult could be used to throw to within engagement range of further targets.

[@anaryllis1240]

Using fragmentation weapons makes sense, but it also means combatants will take a step back in technology and use heavy metal shields sense gravity is so much lower. On a side note multi layered space suits that fill with a gel or foam when punctured should not be that difficult to figure out.

[@RecliningWhale]

A slingshot that fires ball bearings while not the fanciest or most advanced tech should work fine. And without drag or an atmosphere to worry about, it should have some insane range.

[@GronTheMighty]

A pressure washer with a tiny aperture might be a decent moon weapon since it should freeze the water spray and turn it into a spray of ice pellets. Even if it doesn't directly incapacitate or kill enemies, it'll tend to stick, melt on surfaces, and could fry electronics and bring dirt onto optics :D

[@theroguenetwork1083]

Aw yeah, we're getting on the watchlist for this one. Lets gooooooooo

[@cephaleaorion4888]

9:34 absolutely goated reference

[@aurorathekitty7854]

I can't wait for space industrialization. I can't wait to buy a product that says made it low Earth orbit or made on the moon or made on mars or made in the astroid belt. Any one of those would be awesome.

[@Zerbii]

Fast forward to today: China is building an ion cannon and the US is outsourcing resupply missions.

[@CptJistuce]

The ballistics graph for a Davy Crockett on the lunar surface is the most 60s graph I have ever seen.

[@NILgravity]

there was a darpa funded weapons system called metal storm that would be an updated version of the claymore on a stick. they were pushing it 20 years ago and I still haven't seen it so I don't know what limitations it has. I do remember that it has no moving parts.

[@rednecktek2873]

Zombies! Go with zombies! No atmospheric issues, no need for expensive space suits, low maintenance. Brain yogurt tubes are light and small for shipment.

[@nf5113]

Recoilless rifle with beehive rounds. No recoil and firing like 5000 darts in that general direction. Put a couple of laser sights on either side of the barrel, You don't even need iron sights.

[@brandonspears6996]

What about crossbows? I know that you have to aim them, but they don't need an ignition source to fire. Unless the reduced gravity affects the drawstring