The Art of War in EVE Online

The Mittani (leader of Goonswarm's) delves into the art of war in EVE Online.
Blog: Ten Ton Hammer, Sins of a Solar Spymaster #57 - The Art of Nullsec War.
Audio: Fly Reckless podcast episode 53.

[@Dennis-lz9lw]

This video is pure gold, finally somebody touches the aspects of war outside EVE mechanics. It's what sets this MMO apart, really - in WoW & co, social connections are mostly irrelevant, in EVE they can decide between rise and fall or a corporation/alliance. Nicely done, The Mittani!

[@rinnapiim]

***** well the level you compete in wow is nothing compared to eve online....

[@nikkidalyeeveetrainer3666]

+kroooassant yes yes it is :P eve forever

[@FrChrisJohnson]

As the guy who provided the original cotton-mouthed audio for this (Fly Reckless ep. 53, check it out), I'd like to thank you for making me more famous anonymously than I ever could have done on my own. :)

[@shayneoneill1506]

wrap a sock around the mic in future, or better still get a pop filter. Or both!

[@FrChrisJohnson]

At this point, we are in the future by about 3 years? So, will do! :)

[@itai82]

@Jaggling There are ways of flying safe and making tons of ISK. You just have to stay open to learn all the time, and *never get fixed on a specific way of doing things. Always learn from every mistake no matter how small. Losing 5 transports, you should have adapted every time, asked questions every time, rethink your actions, etc... There are countless ways of getting things done. The challenge is a big part of it. Its not an easy game. In Eve you learn the hard way, that's the fun of it!

[@paulstewart5570]

“You can only fight the way you practice” ― Miyamoto Musashi, A Book of Five Rings: The Classic Guide to Strategy

[@DaHuntsman1]

I love it as well, it basically tells you "get good fast or you're dead"

[@Anticitizen2501]

Thumbs up for Fly Reckless Radio! PK is the best!

[@eveDjakku]

I hate alliance wars, I hate the meta side of EVE, I hate Goonswarm, I hate the CSM, I hate 0.0 alliance leaders think that they can speak for the entire player base, I almost even dislike Mittani's voice. But this is a really great EVE Online video, infact it is quickly becoming one of my favourites.

[@Tazkar]

That's the entire point of Sun Tzu's Art of War, it is not about matching wills with the enemy. It is about Breaking His Will to Fight, preferably without ever even engaging in battle to begin with. Sun Tzu understood that War is not an honorable battlefield, you go into battle having already won. You do not go into battle seeking victory.

[@typhoonrinah9652]

Almost 10 years later and this is still just as true as it was back then. Learn from history and don't repeat the same mistakes.

[@KaraGlitch]

Thank you for the video. I enjoyed it, and who knows maybe I may get to play on such a level at some point. :)

[@mattytfame]

I've yet to use a spreadsheet, I've donated generously to others and have succeeded in reaching my goals. EVE is a game where social skills are rewarded, playing without the aid or help of others will get you no where in the game. I venture to say that success in the game is determined by the individuals goals, for some to reach their goals, it may take a certain level of intelligence. The Mittani plays a game without logging in, if you read Sins of a Solar Spymaster, you'd see he's smart.

[@SunStealer001]

The principles of conflict and struggle are consistent no matter what the conflict's form is.

[@ReverendMak]

Sun Tzu was the guy who beheaded his patron's concubines because they weren't following orders in his pretend army, supposedly. The guy was about results by any means, not evenly matched contests of will. In fact, he explicitly taught that it is better to outnumber your enemy 10 to 1 than to have to fight an evenly matched battle, and that the greatest victory of all is when you can win the war without fighting the battle. Getting the other guy to walk away from the board certainly counts.

[@troyatcrossgatechurch4785]

Thats the wettest sounding narration I've ever heard.

[@TheRealLowhyres]

this was one of the best put together videos i have seen in a LONG time. Breaks down common sence, since u would be surprised how many dont have it, and break down how eve has been changed since Jan 04 when i started playing. Wish they would bring back default warp to at 15km. and cap recharger t2s going for 20-25m. Pirate life back then was worth it. now its not as rewarding, only those tears make it all worth it.

[@hershu4]

great stuff... really taught me what I didn't know. I would be that noobie CEO you were talking about.

[@casey360360]

Your attemps at 1DH and the surrounding FAIL controlled systems make much more sense. I can see why MM and Brick got tired. I salute you sir o7

[@Mathignihilcehk]

That is not war, that is a battle between friends. You don't want your friends to be unhappy, so you play without war-tactics.There is a fundamental difference. For example, war tactics include dividing a group in half. Insert three or four spies, bring up an issue that the group agrees to disagree in, create a situation where this escalates slightly, and blow it way out of proportion. You break the bonds of friendship, and the group falls apart. Battle tactics include check-mating the king.

[@Scampcam]

Of course, not to mention if all the miners stopped I imagine the alliances would carry the rest of Eve, either through expanded industrial sections or because it's so much more profitable that they can afford raised prices.

[@RamblinRichard]

good video, was a good listen.

[@Scampcam]

Actually, I think you'll find this is exactly what Sun Tzu was talking about, though in an altered aspect. Going for weak points, demoralization, etc. It's all valid concepts in more than actual warfare. And in a game like Eve where shares some likeness to real warfare campaigns? It may not be "honor" like chess, but it's a way of winning.

[@mattytfame]

Social skills you learn in real life (or haven't learned in your case), Can be applied to the game. Business skills you learn in real life, can be applied to the game. Tactics and Strategy you use in real warfare, can be applied to the game. No one is saying the game is real life. We're only saying that the methods you use in real life to be successful, can be applied in EVE to achieve success.

[@GIGAR4]

Nice video. Some "tactics" can be disagreed frowned upon, but you don't argue with results. So, yeah.

[@DaHuntsman1]

exactly, everything you do in EVE ties back into the butterfly effect, where everything you do effects pretty much everyone in the game, because you must account for the interests of several thousand people

[@DaHuntsman1]

Its that feeling that interests people, because the game reinforces the notion of "expect no quarter so give none"

[@tailesin1]

That has to be one of the most effective guides of how to conduct a war in Eve I've seen. That is the way war is carried today, or at least it should be, End of Story. I think he should be running the US Armed Forces....... I might look at joining the Goons........

[@ricebrown1]

Good video. You need a pop filter or apply de-esser on your audio. The quality will come out much better.

[@Mazthoril]

"Best possible friend; worst possible enemy" (11:14) If they are can control prices so that goons get cheap plex and non-goons don't, then that's precisely in line with what he is describing. I'm speaking as a player currently at war with goonswarm. You don't have to like them to respect them!

[@llillian4055]

This is nice, only he's wrong about Russians. Recent history in EVE has shown that they band together when attacked heavily same as any other enclave ... they enjoy wars between RU coalitions, but when the chips are down, they go RU vs not RU.

[@biggiewall]

The sad truth is that if anybody ever be pitted against the Mittani and they share your view, they will lose because it often comes down to how far each side is willing to go to win. The side that is willing to go to the most drastic of means to win, will win.

[@snowballolee]

thank tou for the vid, it has help me understand what it is to go to war in EVE thankyou

[@RobertSela]

Good old Orbital - The Box background music. Those guys will never be matched and that song was awesome. Just as EVE itself.

[@hobbesrs]

Hi, while i'm not in the CFC (goonswarms coalition) I can tell you that Goonswarm hasn't left eve. They are a large mass of people and up until a recent nerf to their income they were basically going to steam roll anyone. But they're passive form of income was nerfed and currently they are going for a landgrab while they have the swimming pools of money left over.

[@TrueNorth1970]

almost a decade later and yet another Fountain War these lessons seem to hold up pretty well - "for some reason" :) . Sun Tzu still works. :)

[@Mathignihilcehk]

In this you are right, but only by a technicality. Eve isn't war, but neither is Eve a game. Eve is a medium by which people may war or play a game. War can occur on any and all mediums. War can be declared regardless of the reason. In EvE, people declare war for fun and land, but the same is true for history. The moment either party crosses the implied line of game-fun into war is the moment the game becomes a war. When spies, grievers, and exclusionary strategies are in use, there is war.

[@OcihEvE]

I'm sure I can condense this all to a few short lines. - Meta, Meta and more meta. - Spy on opposition, bribe their echelon. - When that fails, monitor their inactive spells when most of their members are in burn out breaks and break their main fleet. - EVE is absolutes. Beat an alliance once, you can continue to do so until they are extinct. It takes months to rebuild, hrs to relaunch invasions. - Crab bucket gaming. For better or worse it will be the demise of EVE as a popular MMO.

[@trixer230]

As of today, many messages of this video have been forgotten in the game. Specific parts are hyper focused on to the point its ineffective and other stratagems have just been forgotten. Eve has devolved into whoever can do the next big troll, or who ever has the most popular streamers.

[@lazygamerz]

My dayjob is lobbying governments to fund rejuvenation biotechnology (read the book Ending Aging by Aubrey de Grey if you wish to know what it is). Which will extend our lives more than all previous medical technology combined, within my lifetime. Therefore I consider a game something to squander time having fun in order to keep me sane. If I worked all the time on things that get me the most return on investment, I would ONLY lobby and exercise every waking moment, but I would go insane.

[@Punishthefalse]

I am not a big fan of the Goons but I agree with the Mittani's strategy. Only dead men fight fair.

[@ethereal3600]

as a starting ceo in eve having faught and lead 6 small wars and involved in or fc'd in a large fight or 6 lol im by no meens as experianced as you thou i am well known for crazy stragitys that work realy well and this video sumes up my mind set and gives a good feel for the complexitys eve online brings to game world like no other i say great job please excuse my gramer

[@bileborgg]

he's restating Sun Tzu's war of war in a very simplified way so those who do not desire to read may gain the more simplistic information.

[@Mazthoril]

Sun Tzu didn't write a book on playing chess. He wrote a book on winning wars. If getting your opponent to "toss the board and walk" is the most viable path to victory, you'd be a buffoon to consider yourself "above" that.

[@Mathignihilcehk]

Essentially, war is only a real-life issue, where-as battles between friends are solely in-game. War can not be fought without forcing the enemy to surrender, and as the video explained, this is best done through the use of real-world war-tactics through a different medium. What you described is much more efficient, but could bring you real consequences. Instead of fighting a war in-game, you fight a war in real life, using live rounds, and possibly nuclear blasts... faster yes but...

[@Mathignihilcehk]

That depends on your definition of winning. For some, winning is conquering the entire map, subjecting the masses to their rule. For others, it is amassing wealth at which point war is an utter tragedy. If your goal is to conquer the map,(governments IRL have the same exact goal, mind you) then making everyone give up is exactly what you want to do.

[@ndalby187]

the principals of all warfare are the same, tsun tzu wrote the guide 4000 years ago, i enjoyed this video even though i prefer to be the guy behind enemy lines doin dirt against enemy supply lines. Fly Safe

[@Razgriz__1]

@natebooce the slow pace and unforgivable environment is what draws so many people to the game, it comes closer to waging war then most other mmo's

[@Apettyexistence]

Wow.... WTF.. Isn't this a video game?

[@swesal]

This video/post just shows how in love with himself Mittani is. It's comical to hear how much he thinks he has accomplished.

[@TheIrishSpectre]

For everyone making a stink about the goons, use their tactics against them. Additionally, if everyone not allied to the goons bands together, and uses their tactics against them, you could secure a key victory, proving that goons are not invincible. After proving their mortality, secure breakaway groups for your alliance/coalition. Use them, who have first-hand knowledge of battle tactics and strategies, to beat the goons at their own game. Crush them until they don't control a single planet.

[@DistinguishedPenguin]

I couldnt say it any better. It would be improbable that an alliance would completely control Nullsec, and that power would crumble under it's own weight eventually, but nobody would want to be peaceful under that power, if there's no war or retaliation, there is peace, and peace is boring, the END of EVE if that ever happened. Why completely remove a source of fun and isk, when you can juice a little out a little bit... dont take the whole beehive, let it produce more honey to juice out.

[@FrChrisJohnson]

Hey there, me again. I was wondering, do you happen to have any other episodes of Fly Reckless archived? I've lost my archive and was looking for a couple things. :) Thanks!

[@lonesoldier33]

lol I like Goonswarm's recruitment ad at 4:08 :)

[@conectado2]

This is the reason I want to play EVE, to see people suffer, to ruin the game for everyone else, that must be one of the most beautiful feelings in the world... good games are about winning, great games are about making everyone else lose. (I don't play because I have no money)

[@Ehal256]

The only time we get a beating is when we do it to ourselves.

[@natecantbefound]

besides what I said in that last comment, hella good video, learned a lot agree with a lot you said. I wont probably have a chance to use it but non the less good video

[@Mortechai]

The Mittani and the GOONS that follow him are the reason why there aren't any more good fights in null.

[@grothaal]

You will want to put in at least a 1 hour session. Thats what I do, I do short sessions and once and a while a more extended session like 3 hours. Skills are trained offline, meaning you really dont have even to play to level up (focusing is important), but to get ISK you will have to put some effort in to build up economically. Join corps as soon as you see theres nothing else you can learn alone, but dont be shy to jump from one to another at the begining. You are learning.

[@blodspawn]

I se your point it meaks sens, it is a Harsh strategy but effektiv thx for meaking this now i nowe Wat to expect en a Corporation war hang on and hop your Leader knows Wat he is doing

[@lazygamerz]

I want to play a game where the deep end of the pool is without a bottom, but still have a safe island for people to learn the simple rule "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose". insecure space (AKA null sec) where you can be shot at will by anyone and everyone, is so exciting it can't be compared to any other games. Even Doom 3 flashlight-run (try to win with flashlight alone) is lame in comparison. Even low-sec (where you can be shot at will also), is so exciting its fun to just BE there.

[@Rhysman30]

This video tells you how to win a war in eve, a sov war, not a pantywaist wardec. Call it pathetic or not, it is accurate, and it is how you win. If the game had actual mechanics for determining the winner of a battle more than just a slug fest with who did the most damage winning, i'd agree with you. I'm the kind of person who doesnt like Zerg warfare, i think the most adept should be victorious. But this is eve, it's a numbers game. The best way to win a fight is to make sure you have more.

[@ChibiViolin]

Its awesome right. I spend my whole time on EVE spreading dissention between small clans and alliances alike all to further my profits and bolster my ego. I use my own organisation sperated in cells to create false conflict or to escalate ongoing minor situations into something more profound. I dont think I'll ever be or want to be one of the greats but with every conflict I solve weather of my own design or otherwise my reputation grows. But damn it takes alot of time and patience.

[@mattytfame]

"Health care professionals don't make diagnosis through youtube comments" Right there with Politicians aren't corrupt Christians never sin Never said I was a health care professional either. Just said I've had training in Psychological profiling and such.

[@Davionious]

Many Chess games end with one opponent laying down their King.

[@Foxtube128]

look at the corporation finder, it took me days of talking to different recruiters to find the right corp. so you might find one faster or slower depending on your play style.

[@InvokeZero]

Damn it I wish my old FC had even half the understanding of war you did - we wouldn't have been so steamrolled if he did. More than half of the things you talked about were used on us, but not all, and our alliance still crumbled due to the player demoralization and essentially the hatred of our self-appointed, arrogant and belittling FC.

[@vinceglartho]

And that's the responses we're looking for. I tried to be like you once, then I relized that eve has become a game all about new and better ways to screw people over. And if GS kills eve............we'll go to another game and kill it, too. There are plenty we're already in, just waiting for more time away from eve. O and thanks for the disclaimer, it tells me how much you truly care for my well-being. And there ARE ways for CCP to fix tons of the problems in eve, they just don't want to.

[@UrbanCohort]

It's hard, often impossible, but in this case I think you can pick it up through context.

[@Dreez76]

g00nswarm and Mittani is full of shit when they take credit for the destruction of BoB. BoB was destroyed by the use of a current faulty ingame-mechanic that was later FIXED - the possibility to disband an alliance by ONE individ. Would that exploit/flawed mechanic not have existed, BoB would've squished g00n a long time ago.

[@ShadeyDarkpaw]

alliance can still be disbanded by one person noob

[@NorthernXP]

I robbed a goon, took his titan. His emo rage is certain. I robbed a goon just to try it, hope my goon friends don't mind it!

[@TheLawlicious]

the thing I love about this game... its a kick in the balls compared to every other game out there

[@Spyre1984]

@icer363 I don't discredit these methods of gaining tactical advantages. I just choose to merit particular methods over others. ;)

[@chrishallsify]

"I am by no means the only authority on war." LMAO! Major poseur alert here. This was hilarious, intentionally or otherwise.

[@reddog418]

Yes thank you for emphasizing my exaggerated point that the line should be drawn at the game and no further. Making someone not want to play isn't winning.

[@Sheopaard]

I kind've agree with what u say, it is better to beat somone straight up and with honor? Eve is nothing like chess. Eve also brings in the social aspect unlike any other game can do or has done. This is just one of many aspects in eve. Like in real war, you will try to get any edge you possibly can to win( griefing is subliminally encouraged in this game if u didn't know).

[@Jaggling]

@brygdomin Skilled crafter is a generic term, I was specifically going for building munitions, not glamorous but seemed profitable. And I was in a 'secure' sector space where the campers were blowing up the police along with players at the gates. I did ask questions, a lot of them, and 99% of what I got back was trash talk about being a noob, which I was but was trying to get better, the majority of people who were talking in these channels were all about displaying their lack of maturity.

[@Cannibal713]

What are you talking about. Morale is a basic requirement of any army. As much as bullets or beans. Whether it is the Pharaoh's army of ancient Egypt or a commander of a star fleet. How many battles have been won because the opposing side was completely exterminated? Not many. More often then not one side flees, of better yet refuses to fight. One will only fight as long as they have the morale to do so. Attacking the morale of an army (fleet) is a time honored practice. Sun Tzu would approve.

[@brokencage9723]

shame Vily and piggles never watched this.

[@karrakis]

@KrazyKommieKiller If part of "your character" is effective large-scale organizational tactics, leadership, logistics and objectives-based strategic deployment, I'd say that's no bad thing. No war has ever been fought on "neutral terms," even in games, and least of all in EVE, a game where failure has lasting, meaningful consequences and is to be avoided at any cost. And results *do* mean a damn thing when you are protecting the interests of 3,000 people.

[@mivapusa]

The images with people in them, about the middle of the video, where are they from?

[@Rhysman30]

This is most certainly not chess, and it isn't real life either. Soldiers dont require food, and they dont stay dead. This is Eve, it's almost not even comparable. When it is comparable, it's almost a parallel to what Sun Tzu writes; attack logistics, attack allies, espionage, demoralization. Perhaps you should read the book.

[@DaHuntsman1]

you never attack their strongest link, as theres a very high chance you will lose your fleet, and end up fucked for the rest of the war, whereas taking out the enemys weaker links, and eventully stranding the enemys main force, is a much safer, and assured method of your enemys destruction, as a army is only as strong as its weakest link

[@Mathignihilcehk]

Not bad, he didn't cover internal destruction. Or the important implications of war. War is the last resort, after countless failures to find another way. More than quit playing the game, the goal is to ruin their life, or get them to join you. Goonswarm eh... Improbable that they would post this. Even more so that it still works. You have my attention.

[@longhairdlout]

We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile

[@Spyre1984]

Does this game really require the dark and disturbed understanding of tearing another man's soul apart, just to enjoy it? It's a strange game indeed.

[@Spyre1984]

@KrazyKommieKiller I like the cut of your jib, and I agree with you. I get the feeling that the characteristic "cruel learning curve" of the game has given lots of players the excuse they need to take the game to this level of zero morality, if it means gaining a step above their fellow players.

[@skitzoemu1]

bill Sun Tzu never wrote a book about playing chess and there are lots of things in here that are referenced to the book attack where the enemy is weak and you know the best victory is the battle you never had to fight. plus your own saying falls back on itself if you win a battle of wills your going to cause your enemy to leave the table or through it in a violent means because at some time they know they have lost so have no choice.

[@superpescado]

Have you even read the art of war? It mentions those types of tactics many times.

[@darian1968]

The thing is its better if you can understand more languages it helps you have friends globally . Now we had a few issues as well now sorted out because of a barrier its now all good. Now you never pick on your own team members unless that is the idea win the trust and then take everything they own. Goon did that with BOB. No surprise there. Always find ways to win even small victories are good for moral, More to follow some day. Peace and fly safe.

[@blackfang101]

Thats a pretty good description, i mean eve is like that yes. Now then back to my ethnic enclave:D

[@shadekiller19]

guys stfu... I liked your video, nice take on the subject and it was really interresting

[@taekwondodo05]

in other words, "war, war never changes."

[@goninzo]

Just a heads up, this is not The Mittani reading this, but just some pubbie.

[@TheLongRedMan]

Can someone get this guy a glass of water

[@Jaggling]

@itai82 I was learning, I had just gotten my first Cruiser, along with a Destroyer for 'ratting' and my 3rd transport, I scouted the path first with my Destroyer, and it was all clear then went back to bring the transport through and poof gate camper. I was leap frogging Cruiser and Transport on the last attempt again in 'secure space'. There is a difference between a fun challenge and having your entire months work wasted cause some people can. I quit the game after six months of this.

[@Maadhawk]

Skymarshal... using the term from "Stars at War" by David Weber?

[@razorbomb2]

even though i am against goonswarm what mittani said was a great.

[@IasharKoranin]

Chess is not war, it is a test of strategic thought, but not technically moral or the allegiance of the pawns to the commander. War is though. Technically by many rules, if the opponent forfeits you win the match.

[@mattytfame]

I can understand what you mean, but where else do you get to roleplay a ruthless warlord with no honor, applying the concepts of war set before us by great military leaders? No one should decide how another person plays the game, if being ruthless and wining by any means necessary is fun for someone, they should do it. In fact it's usually the vicitim that makes it personal in the game. Gankers just gank miners, and the miners over react and start taking it personally.

[@Mathignihilcehk]

Not necessarily. I would declare war for the sole purpose of gaining peace, because during your "ebb and flow" property and time is destroyed repeatedly. This barbaric processes, in my opinion, should be stopped as soon as possible. But a very large number of people would consider war's goal to subjugate or destroy all enemies. This is true for EvE also. Besides, rarely do nations expend the effort I R L to subjugate or destroy.(In this series, there is a reference to such an occurrence)

[@brygdomin]

@Jaggling Narrow-minded view there. There is more to Eve Online than null sec stuff. If you don't like that large-scale stuff, join a smaller corp in npc null sec, or faction warfare in low sec, or what ever. You shouldn't call a blanket boycott of new players playing Eve Online just because your particular experience was not good.