The Art of Worldbuilding - What Makes a Good Fake Game?

I've long complained about SAO's poor use of its fiction game setting. But what does a GOOD fake game look like? This season's Bofuri and Infinite Dendrogram provide two GREAT examples.
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In the depths of his Mother's Basement, Geoff Thew creates videos analyzing the storytelling techniques of anime and video games. He has been named the number one Worst KZbin Anime Reviewer by The Top Tens.

[@GeorgeKinsill]

Overlord has the most realistic game design, in that it started out as a brilliant game, moved to pay to win mechanics, then lost its player base, resulting in it being shutdown.

[@yoshifan2334]

There was a nice bit of irony to Ainz flexing cash shop items at shalltear during the season 1 fight

[@chrisschoenthaler5184]

Indeed. How does the MC defeat one of his subordinates when she gets brainwashed? He uses a bunch of overpowered pay-to-win items to cheese the fight, because he couldn’t have won fairly. “Here is a class of spells that are so overpowered that max-level casters can only use them once per day!” “Cool. Let’s make an item that can let players use them again every minute or so, but sell the item for five bucks apiece.” “Wow. Not even an hour after the update, and we’ve already sold five thousand of them.” “Clearly, this was an excellent idea.” *two months later* “Ninety seven percent of our player base has quit. We’re shutting down the game servers.”

[@charliejones5563]

looking back ot this comment, I think it's less to do with dwindling players and more like the game being really fucking expensive to maintain

[@malcolmholmes2596]

Aka the EA method

[@downix]

Accurate

[@emostiker222]

the fact that maple gets a skill for eating that hydra in the first episode implies that the devs of new world online wanted players to eat the hydra.

[@noukan42]

Wich is not that weird in the first place. Eating monsters to gain immunities is a roguelike staple.

[@ningensan8198]

I guess such a thing was meant to be discovered later on and not on your second day in the game 😂

[@meinhard6537]

I think you were ment to eat it after defeating it.

[@nuxxism]

I'm coming to opinion that skills are granted by an AI that creates effects based on player actions. That's why Maple's combinations end up overpowered: the AI was only designed to handle "normal" player actions. It's also why no one can copy Maple. The AI is a true black box where not even the devs can trace the decisions it makes.

[@Mernom]

@@noukan42 What was weird is why the hell does bite has unblockable damage? Usually you need to kill the enemy before eating them.

[@spo97]

how dare you not mention the most important thing about bofuri: that maples turtle is named syrup.

[@buggart]

You mean the flying fortress?

[@spo97]

@@buggart thats the one

[@skullythekidd0175]

That is sooooooooooo precious

[@FF-tp7qs]

And her real name is Kaede which is Japanese for maple leaf

[@muhammadsyafiq1004]

and her guild name is maple tree

[@nojatha4637]

Bofuri is badly made game on PURPOSE (because the author wrote it to be bad) but gets better as the developers patch out exploits and adds new content. It’s really interesting to see how this is done. Kinda reminds me of No Man’s Sky.

[@themysticarcher3313]

Honestly the terrible game design and watching the developers deal with that is one of my favorite things about bofuri

[@olos5437]

yeah it makes it more realistic to how devs do updates and stuff

[@linnen_elm]

@@olos5437 not that realistic when the casual player who found that exploit- plz dood.. you had no idea how crazy speedrunners and hardcore player are... for a legit casual example is that, in Genshin tournament- the player took an advantage of pausing the game to collect energy recharge- imagine, in a speedrunning where time is essence, they deliberately wasting time by pausing the game in order to progress even faster- and a mere puting +100 stat on def is such no brainer for some random veterans, like that one guy build a kokomi crit despite -100 crit. Those exploit, vets should've already done that before even a mere casul like bofuri girl tried that first, _smh_

[@Tomzin20]

@@linnen_elm this game is meant to be expensive and decently new, also, a vrmmo is diffferent from a real game, specially one that isnt just vr, its full dive vr.

[@linnen_elm]

@@Tomzin20 yea try name a single popular/decent/massive game that didn't have beta tester or leakers or data miners. yep there is none. do you know what happen if game didn't get tested before it launch? Cyberpunk, no man sky, tower of fantasy, etc full of messed up shjt you know. I won't bother, like there are other dozen decent LN out there, i won't miss a single thing by skipping this combustible garbage of show. but I do love watching a pile of trash burning

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

JRPGs: "Omg Player-killing is so mean and evil! Only psychos do that!!" Western RPGs: *Confused cat being yelled-at meme*

[@dj_koen1265]

Jrpg players: omg killing other players is so mean only a psycho would do that Western players: *but thats the best part *

[@justpepe253]

Oh god I remember being Maxed on Swordsman and waiting for people at the lower level areas just to get the red player status. Baiting other high level players into hunting me and entering the city. Man those were good times.

[@maniacmohawk5513]

**cries in gta online**

[@HeresorLegacy]

Honestly I'm kind of at the JRPGs side with that one. To me it's pretty annoying getting PKed in open world, but it's also part of the fun. In WoW it was one of my favourite pasttimes to go to Durotar and the Barrens to help out Horde Newbies, while playing as Alliance. (Mostly because questing in the Barrens is boring AF). Also the perks of being a Shaman was that in case a random boi tried to hit me my lightning shield procced. I mean seriously. I'm helping you with your killquests and you hit me? What's wrong with you? Overall I never liked 1v1 PvP much. That's why I loved GW2 and it's WvW battleground.

[@luctran8245]

@@HeresorLegacy i loved pk honestly, but camping on low lv player feels like a scum move

[@enelytecaaa]

SAO ~ Sexual Assault Often

[@mothersbasement]

This actually made me laugh out loud

[@enelytecaaa]

Mother's Basement mission accomplished lmao love ur vids keep up the good work

[@dantewilson182]

That fits the show completely.

[@Lakefront_Khan]

Well it is Japanese, what did you expect? Besides I'd play it.

[@user-xr9tw6xh7o]

@@Lakefront_Khan MB stans are disgusting. Can't believe you guy look up to him.

[@ThePigKnight]

Bofuri: The anime where the MC actually gets nerfed by the devs.

[@nickshaffer80]

But then they eventually give up nerfing her cause they think it will drive up player engagement and sales, as she is starting to become the de facto mascot and people want to see if they can grind to be just like her

[@alchemysaga3745]

@@nickshaffer80 Which actually makes sense. Why would you risk losing thousands of players because you choose to basically bully a child for accidentally taking full advantage of the skill system that was part of your advertising campaign, vs let her do the thing and draw people in by literally exemplifying that same system.

[@jacobbissey9311]

@@alchemysaga3745 Eh, the nerf they applied was a result of an unintended interaction between two abilities, and it technically didn't apply only to her, she was just the player primarily impacted, largely because she was the reason this exploit was noticed. In case it wasn't clear or you were unaware, the exploit was that devour when applied to the surface area of a tower shield was insanely OP, and the nerf was to put a daily limit on devour, changing Maple from literally unbeatable to merely crazy strong. That is how MMOs get nerfed, they don't penalize specific players, they make changes to the rules of the game. The way she interacts with the skill system isn't the problem, it's the fact that the devs keep including nearly impossible challenges with obscenely OP rewards, and Mapletree (mostly Maple, but also everyone else except the twins) keeps being the reason the "nearly" was included. Maple's gear, angle form, demon form, machine god form, the pets, Sally's gear, Chrome's skull gear, Iz's crafter gear, Kanade's puzzle boxes, and probably a few things I'm forgetting were all unique rewards for completing challenges that were supposed to be too difficult, too boring, too niche, too elaborate, or too weird for anyone to conceivably accomplish. The stated reason for why they stopped trying to nerf her was the marketing thing, but the real reason was that they couldn't figure out how to do so, as she was legitimately playing the game as they designed it, but because they are bad at game design they designed themselves into a corner. It wasn't that they wanted to bully her, it was that having a crazy OP player with unique super powers that no one else can replicate has the potential to result in negative feedback and vehement backlash, which could cost them their jobs, so they were worrying about trying to figure out *how* to nerf Maple, until the marketing stuff showed them that they luckily didn't *have* to nerf her like they were expecting to.

[@UNSCPILOT]

But they can't Nerf her fast enough and things spin wildly out of hand

[@nerosoul2506]

@@nickshaffer80 they decided that a) they're going to remove some of the things that got maple to be so powerful without nerfing her and b) buff everything else so its more even

[@mog1755]

"I'll take my real name, translate it to another language, and that will be my game name!" Another similarity between both of these shows and reality.

[@artofthepossible7329]

I like using Hebrew names for a fun use of this since their actual meaning is generally not thought of when the character introduces themselves, particularly in modern days. Have a character trait or event based on this meaning and watch as others realise that they should have seen this coming.

[@erika.s]

Not me searching for name meanings to fit for the game theme XDDD

[@shadowclaw7210]

I just make up something really edgy so people would avoid me.

[@uc4490]

@@shadowclaw7210 TheInevitableDarkAbyssOfDecay Game: Too Many Characters

[@shadowclaw7210]

@@uc4490 sounds like light novel title.

[@elsewhereprince3969]

"Broken, imbalanced at times, player hostile design" "en-deadening" "Secret evil NPC genocide societies, or weird perverts in penguin costumes who use fake potions to trick other players into fulfilling their neko-mimi fetishes" "could literally exploit such a system in their sleep." "gamers really like to complain about things" "Moe's her way into newer scarier exploits." These lines are golden

[@tiramin]

Best line imo is "unless you play EVE Online"

[@joshuaford6700]

I believe almost all those lines describe guildwars 2. Dat game is dope.

[@joshuaford6700]

@godd howard I played it some but I was a halo guy back then.

[@williamwalton9154]

@@joshuaford6700 very true. My Necromancer turned 7 years old last month which shocked me how long I had been playing on and off.

[@bogdangiusca5057]

Agreed

[@sugoidude7823]

SAO was trying to be taken seriously while having a laughably designed game. Bofuri is trying to be taken as a joke while having a laughably designed game.

[@Only_Habibi]

Alicization is good. And if you stop nitpicking, first half of S1 is enjoyable as an anime.

[@AlexsTheWizard]

Mohammad Habib Mannan and tbh as much as the second hand of season 1 is not as good as the first half of season 1 it really isn’t all that bad. There is plenty of bad anime out there and the second have doesn’t really fit the criteria, it just doesn’t live up to the first half. And yes alicization is damn good.

[@Mernom]

@@Only_Habibi Does alicization still has the incredibly bad 3d scenes?

[@TGPDrunknHick]

@@Only_Habibi the real problem is SAO was designed by a madman who wanted an epic quest and story. the game was never intended to be balanced in the first place given all the unique skills and such that the developer gave himself.

[@ceal2137]

@@TGPDrunknHick Yeah if I remember in the LN Kayaba said that he wants to reveal that he is the last boss once they defeated the boss at floor 100 and while everyone is in despair the Hero, the one who got dual wielding skill would fight him. When I read that part I was like "dude are you even sure they will reach floor 100?"

[@deathbower]

Having just watched Bofuri, I'm convinced that special skills were created on the fly based upon how wholesome a player was. Kind of genius tbh - it means that all the toxic players can get normal skills but you have to be a genuinely good person to excel at the game.

[@slevinchannel7589]

"ID really wants to be analysed, interpreted and interacted with by its Audience. For that, it made its Lore and World as accesable as possible for that." Very epicly said. We need more of this, that's clear. Furthermore, the Embryo-System is indeed cool, but a whole new layer of Coolness is added if we’d all realize that this proves the System named ‚Nen’ from HxH can be used for Games and Novels, too. HxH can have Spin-Offs and Games and more. Embroys prove that.

[@ashcyr3711]

so like deltarune but in real time? sweet

[@ashadanver]

A maple themed guild calling itself "Maple Tree"? ...and full of adorkable characters who you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of? Is this about Canada?

[@essexclass8168]

>Valentine tank

[@STN4D]

Watch the Anime to understand it lmao

[@someone-you-do-not-know8522]

Yes.

[@bobrandomness1055]

More or less honestly. One of the two main characters is named Maple, who has a pet occasionally flying turtle named Syrup, that all live in a large treehouse. And the guild is named Maple Tree. Everyone in that guild is also some various flavor of badass. They are all also really nice.

[@Gilhelmi]

Honestly, Canada has one of the most powerful militaries on earth (just behind the US) purely because you can never predict what they are thinking. Just like Maple. Friendly, kind, and kicks ass, almost by accident. Then they sincerely apologizes because they didn't mean to kick that much ass, and now they feel bad.

[@AO1hasyoutube]

Bofuru makes me think about how my sister hopped everywhere when she played oblivion

[@Ralathar44]

I'm a 35 year old man that has been playing MMORPG for 2 decades. I still hop travel alot :D.

[@DixieSchizo]

Oblivion without 100 acrobatics tigger hopping is blasphemy

[@insiainutorrt259]

She played it corectly... you should probably apologise

[@shadowpod13]

You should check out Ritualist on Audible. It's a LitRPG novel. The MC ends up maxing out his jump skill during a tragic turn of events. But then uses his Jump skill to help him with other things.

[@gctypo2838]

Not quite the same, but I b-hop habitually in every FPS I play, even games where it has no benefit. I don't even play CS I just like pressing spacebar.

[@esaualfaro3447]

Also something amazing about Bofuri I´d like to point out is: Maple is not a gamer. So the way she approaches the problems of the videogame are not what your typical gamer would do. Since we all have some experience with videogames, we can all assume what the game wants you to do (like jumping on enemies, get a key to open a door, move right on a 2D platformer...), but since Maple is not a gamer she gets creative and does silly stuff to solve her problems (maxing defense so she doesn´t feel pain, playing with/eating the monsters instead of killing them with the knife). In contrast, Sally does everything she can to complete quests, minimax her character based on a concept, engage in serious PvP. I think it is just fascinating to have a game where both experienced and unexperienced players can have fun and a positive experience playing.

[@esaualfaro3447]

@brandon roberts All the girls are very cute, my favorites are Maple and Kasumi!

[@l0sts0ul89]

A real gamer would try to find out how to fuck and exploit the game as soon as they can.

[@STN4D]

@@l0sts0ul89 But can they do it like Maple?

[@greatninja2590]

@@STN4D No cause Maple has plot

[@azirul9311]

@@greatninja2590 sounds very wrong out of context

[@mr.applejuice8546]

Me after losing a game of UNO: "The term "it's just a game" is such a weak mindset"

[@drlc6051]

Me after losing: it's just a game Me after winning: "it's just a game" is a mindset for the weak and unintelligent

[@bagged_milk67]

bruh did somebody reverse card your comment

[@linuxstreamer8910]

i love that her turtle pet is faster than her and 2 of her friends are a glass cannon and she is a walking wall

[@NoWayItsHoshi]

3* sally,mai and yui they all have crap defence

[@HazeEmry]

@@NoWayItsHoshi but Sally at least can dodge

[@omega9216]

@@HazeEmry Sally has yet to take a single point of DMG in the novel and they have been playing for over a year now.

[@olynodren]

I was pleasantly surprised when Bofuri had a functioning dev team behind it lol. It was such an interesting, if completely obvious, change to all the other video game isekais

[@ismael8391]

And they also nerf her

[@malachiwilliams4938]

Ismael YES!! They actually made an overpowered isekai(ish) protagonist not too overpowered. The author made her struggle a little bit as well, so that’s neat I would say.

[@Maxwell_Twist]

@@malachiwilliams4938 I mean, she still basically can't be killed.

[@MrLuzakman]

@@malachiwilliams4938 yeah, overpowering the most powerful mage in game without a single offensive stat. Totally not OP

[@Alb410]

@@Maxwell_Twist not until they added piercing damage that negates defense

[@theshadynorwegian6036]

Me Hears bofuri explained. Huh. She's literally the spiffing brit if the exploit abuse was unintentional

[@ensec6630]

they do drink tea...

[@theshadynorwegian6036]

Ensec northshire gold? No? Oh how disappointing

[@imperlast2]

@@theshadynorwegian6036 Yorkshire gold you mean

[@theshadynorwegian6036]

imperlast2 forgive me queen elizabeth for i have sinned

[@DSiren]

New World Online is fair and balanced.

[@mugenthainfinite8096]

The end of maple's story is gonna be her getting banned for breaking the game multiple times

[@Gilhelmi]

Then the community riots online because they have all fallen in love with her (like a sister, let's not be creepy). The last 10mins would be the devs apologizing, and the last scene would be her putting on the VR helmet and reentering the game with her friends.

[@ismael8391]

@@Gilhelmi that would be a nice ending but I think they would also riot because she is like the ultimate final boss of the game and everyone wants to defeat her.

[@charliekahn4205]

Isn't the game in beta, anyway? If that's the case, why would they ban anyone for doing their job?

[@ashrimpcalledhank]

@@charliekahn4205 the game is way to populated and too many long time players to be in beta. Any closed beta I participated in last only 6-12 weeks.

[@CABRALFAN27]

Infinite Dendrogram taught me a lesson that all LN/Manga readers probably learn at some point; Even if your series gets an adaptation, there's no guarantee it'll even be any good, much less good enough to justify additional Seasons. I tore through the LN at record speed, and it was so good, so I was shocked at how unknown it was. It's a hidden gem, and a mediocre Anime adaptation that treated it as just another VRMMO Isekai that could make a quick buck rather than understanding what made it so interesting in the first place, means it'll probably stay that way.

[@slevinchannel7589]

Nowadays, Adaptation-Fails dont just exist but get normalized. There’s more and more of them and it’s tragic to see that the Anime-Commmunity barely even realized.

[@kendallwarner1901]

I’d never heard about it until this video, which I watched only a few days ago. Now I’ve made it all the way through all 50 chapters of the manga and can confidently say this story is AMAZING. I’m genuinely sad there isn’t more content out and that the anime is so mediocre.

[@CABRALFAN27]

@@kendallwarner1901 I'm not sure how far the Manga goes, but I've been reading the Light Novels (I'd read the original Web Novel, but thanks to its mediocre Anime, it doesn't have a large enough fanbase, as opposed to, say, Re:Zero, for it to be translated) pretty much religiously since discovering it, and I'd definitely recommend it. If the Manga goes past the Anime, I might have to check it out, too, just to see some of the scenes visualized properly.

[@abnormal9613]

Just going to point out that the anime was so bad that when I started reading the ln I had no idea that rook and Marie were in the anime

[@damanrando7608]

Most unrealistic part of bofuri... They look at the LFG board and the only thing people want is DPS... No one looking for Tanks... No one looking for healers... Just DPS

[@lordofgangstas]

That actually really depends on the game, in some games it’s just more viable to focus almost exclusively on DPS and just not bother with tanking. I haven’t played it in ages and never got into raiding, but at least for dungeons that’s how the meta is for Guild Wars 2 - why bother with a tank when you can just kill the boss faster and avoid having to deal with attacks entirely? This would be even more appropriate in a VRMMO where physically dodging attacks is a viable option, rather than hit chances and damage just being a game of math like in WoW

[@schwarrzsechz591]

I think because is vr you can dodge the attacks so they only go to DPS Players

[@profwaldone]

I think it is seposed to show that maple is changing the meta so most people are chosing partial or full defence builds, thus severly redusing the damage output of avarage parties

[@TheEmolano]

It's the sub you watched the anime. There was a lot of healer requests, and other classes too. I don't remember about thanks though.

[@kosakos1999]

It is kind of accurate when you go into a pub in TF2 and there is 6 snipers and 5 spies on your team, while no one plays medic or power classes.

[@DJVm4GOD1]

Maple is a precious child. Pretty smart too. She knows how to advance her abilities and take advantage of what she has despite not being a gamer.

[@tanuki01]

All hail the walking fortress!

[@sdbzfan1]

@@tanuki01 more like flying fortress

[@tuan6497]

gamer : Am i a joke to you ?

[@tanuki01]

Nguyễn Tuấn yes, yes you are

[@tanuki01]

Ryou Misaki I just got to the Flying Fortress part. It makes sense that her pet is a turtle

[@PuchimonExtreme]

Conclusion. "What makes a good fake game?" "Get more 'alive' characters."

[@samsemy6825]

Who woulda though! Characters that don't wanna kill themselfs are better!!

[@PuchimonExtreme]

@@samsemy6825 Not really what I was referring to but...

[@artofthepossible7329]

@@samsemy6825 "Living is not breathing but doing." The want of death is completely different.

[@skyty0]

"Like JoJo stands, it's not about what you have, it's about how you use it." I keep telling that to my girlfriend and she doesn't believe me... :(

[@fntthesmth423]

if your girlfriend is talking about what i think she is, which is to say your dick size, that's what we call a "red flag"

[@killerbug05]

@@fntthesmth423 it's called a joke bro

[@charliec.1347]

As a computer science major, the idea of a video game world like in Infinite Dendrogram, where the lore is created and evolved through simulation instead of being hand-written is incredibly fascinating. Sort of reminds me of Dwarf Fortress but more accessible and with more direct interactions between the player and world.

[@Bogglemanify]

I would recommend looking up some of the stories from Eve online if you haven't already

[@charliec.1347]

@@Bogglemanify Oh my god, yes!

[@Fish-ub3wn]

Rimworld.

[@TH3BR1CKWALL]

all i can see in Infinite Dendrogram is no mans sky. I want to say its impossible but that would be me being short sighted and not thinking out of the box.

[@129das]

That just sandbox design.

[@remuj6457]

Bofuri be like Min-Maxing: A Complete Guide

[@aggammer3485]

More like maxing: the complete completion

[@kintamas4425]

So she becomes supergirl?

[@bobrandomness1055]

Jason Pan She, as said in the video, basically moe-s her way into being effectively unkillable while also being rather strong due to some special magic. So....i guess its somewhat of an accurate comparison? I don't know anything about supergirl

[@kintamas4425]

Bob randomness honestly I don’t know much about supergirl myself but I reckon she has the same skill set as Superman. In the video Jeff said Mc becomes able to fly...

[@bismarkeugen6881]

The best way to put it is she is a min-maxed tank with status effects(Poison and Paralysis)and a counter-attack shield as her main damage output. The flight is the turtle.

[@ASecretLynn]

My favorite "fake game" anime is by Far Log Horizon. It entered a genre rivaled only by SAO at the time, and showed me everything that SAO wasn't and would never be, all the while posing some interesting moral questions and captivating world building.

[@Fish-ub3wn]

log horizon season 3 incoming :D

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@Fish-ub3wn "ID really wants to be analysed, interpreted and interacted with by its Audience. For that, it made its Lore and World as accesable as possible for that." Very epicly said. We need more of this, that's clear. Furthermore, the Embryo-System is indeed cool, but a whole new layer of Coolness is added if we’d all realize that this proves the System named ‚Nen’ from HxH can be used for Games and Novels, too. HxH can have Spin-Offs and Games and more. Embroys prove that.

[@Pensive_Scarlet]

One important thing to remember is that the very concept of "player-hostile" was actually a vital component of the earliest video games. It's interesting how this concept has re-emerged as an element used to market sci-fi fiction revolving around high end video game experiences. SAO is just a high-stakes quarter-muncher reincarnated into a different medium. The same seems to apply to Ready Player One, too.

[@sonofamitch8522]

Please make a review of SAO abridged, there is like 2 vids on it, and I would love to hear our anime Pope to say "BallsDeep69" to explain how underused Klein is -Your beloved Arch Bishop SonOfAMitch

[@hrafnikullrsonn91]

Oh by the God's yes. Do this.

[@alucard347]

@@hrafnikullrsonn91 In the words of our glorious emperor. DEW IT

[@aa-on1ps]

We need this

[@kylerivera3470]

Maybe a review on what we've seen on ALO so far. There are already more than enough videos on SAO proper, but the ALO arc came after just about everyone had already made a video or twenty.

[@dawgly4815]

"Thanks, Balls"

[@cmk5498]

I would really love to see a fighting game esports anime, no rpg stuff I want to see a good writer flex their skills and show what they can do with the inspiration from real world counterparts

[@pyrowisp]

so like king's avatar but anime? (btw really recommend king's avatar it's a great show)

[@s3studios597]

This is somthing I've wanted to see too. And I'd want it to be actual console fighting games, not VRMMO stuff. I wanna see how different people approach the same character like how one person may play Ryu by zoning while someone plays rushdown. I wanna be able to see mirror matches. Hell, if you get the full experience, have multiple games and a protagonist who plays them on different levels.

[@PolyChromium]

Have you seen EMPLemon’s video on HungryBox the Super Smash Bros player? It’s not an anime, but if it was then it sounds like your kinda thing

[@Gang3rs]

you know bringing that up.....i would actually be into that

[@cmk5498]

@@pyrowisp King's avatar was almost there but it was still an fps game, Id enjoy it if they did that for a 2d fighting game

[@wilhelmweston9903]

Ok so I have a theory on Bofuri. I dont think its broken at all in the skill system. The problem is that the game is less then a year old and not all the skills are know yet. that means the meta will be shifting like crazy. I think Maple just stumbled on to the ideal tank skills early. Payne is the highest Lv person in the game at 60 so that mean noone is lv caped yet. That says that there are tons of crazy skills out there to be found, and that maybe Maple is just ahead of the rest due to her oddball personality. Also it looks like players have two classes. the one they pick at start and the subclass they build via play style. Maple is a Tank/Blue Mage. Sally is a Swashbuckler/Red Mage.

[@slevinchannel7589]

"ID really wants to be analysed, interpreted and interacted with by its Audience. For that, it made its Lore and World as accesable as possible for that." Very epicly said. We need more of this, that's clear. Furthermore, the Embryo-System is indeed cool, but a whole new layer of Coolness is added if we’d all realize that this proves the System named ‚Nen’ from HxH can be used for Games and Novels, too. HxH can have Spin-Offs and Games and more. Embroys prove that.

[@smokybear3659]

I think 24 hour re-spawn times are cool if your going for a more realistic game.. in theory. What would actually be the reality of this game is fall damage death and now you have to wait 24 hours which in my opinion is such a turn off if your really enjoying the game. Everyone fucks up and ig it’s more of an adrenaline rush to know that if you fuck up it’s game over for 24 hours. However if we’re thinking realistically here I can assume that there’s pvp. So imagine you get in and the towns/city’s are safe zones but everything else isn’t. Couldn’t you take a guess that there’s at least one fucker waiting for newbies to pop out from the town for him/her to torment. My point is that 24 hours sound cool but would be awful in practice.

[@invalid3354]

And that's exactly what happened, some guy got pissed off and spawn camped a guy over and over again till he quits

[@randomguy1706]

not really because ALOT of REAL games punish you way worse for way more stupid reasons.

[@JC-jz6rx]

as an indie developer, I've never clicked so fast in my life. I love games, I love anime, but I love discussions on anime and games even more.

[@kylethomas9130]

Is it weird to be interested in Isekai as a genre, because I'm studying what people think are fun video game mechanics?

[@bishop8958]

I relate to this, I'm trying to get into game dev myself, I've done a metric fuck-ton of research by now, but I still find these discussions interesting, now I just need to actually finish a project.

[@JC-jz6rx]

Bishop don’t work on a project , work on a prototype of a mechanic.thats how you start. Focus on what you like first. Do you like story writing, level design, or are you a coder.then use whatever you chose to propel your motivation into learning the things you might not find as interesting.

[@bishop8958]

@@JC-jz6rx Well, the part that I find most interesting is making webs with how different gameplay elements can tie into each-other in interesting ways, but to do that I kind of need gameplay elements to tie together in the first place, and therefor also core systems to run those elements on. I don't mind the less-interesting things as much as most people, but my issue is when I inevitably have to take a break, I have trouble getting back into it the next day or the day after, on the project I've been going working on, I made a pathfinding system in like a day, back in December, then proceeded to not touch it for 3 months.

[@JC-jz6rx]

Kyle Thomas no, it’s every mmo ever in theory

[@BlazeMakesGames]

I mean when it really comes down to it, designing a fictional game is essentially just making a magic system in a fantasy show. Except while in a normal fantasy you can maybe handwave away some of the grander effects that having magic in a world would do to said world thanks to its scarcity or how hard it is to learn; In a game you have to consider those ramifications to the extreme since people will exploit the shit out of anything they can get their hands on and bitch about anything they can't. There's no such thing as too hard to learn or acquire in a game since once one person figures it out, then it's in a guide on the internet. Just look at the Jedi Debacle in that old Star Wars MMO. Fortunately it does come with some other random upsides since you can have completely arbitrary game rules like say disallowing PvP and destruction in towns to prevent the 37,000 wizards on the server from fireballing the shit out of everything.

[@Lemus_Delgado]

BlazeDrag this might be one of the best summations of creating fictional games I’ve ever read.

[@knight4light]

I have a bachelors in game programming... what cracks me up is how bofuri is sooo badly programed. or genius programed? i can understand doing certain actions get you skills. But then there is the whole "imma eat this and gain skills as well" ... the fact that that EATING has been programmed to give skills. unless its somewhat auto generating. the coding in the backend must be insane. There are so many combination exploits that could happen. Its why i laugh at the devs trying their hardest to rebalance lol. its not possible. not with the way their skills aquired. they coded themselves into a corner.

[@tanuki01]

Yeah; but game designers tend to ignore or forget those things in real life too, so focusing on how a game is broken is a good change of pace

[@B-lockdown]

What was the Jedi Debacle?

[@Lemus_Delgado]

knight4light I’m willing to bet that somebody on their design just forgot to comment on their code and now they just can’t figure what they can change to balance their game.

[@KitsunenoHibi]

Bofuri is AMAZING. Watching Maple just "te-he" her way through this game leaving a legacy of horror behind her left me in stitches every weak.

[@MogFlintlock]

Hearing you talk about Bofuri reminds me of one of the things that I think isn't used enough; the potential for a game to be acknowledged as flawed or unbalanced within the bounds of the story (which applies to card game anime as well as VRMMOs). A lot of the poorly thought out fake games tend to treat their systems as an author would treat any other magic system, where the players kinda just treat it as 'a thing that exists immutably and we just have to deal with it', ignoring that A. I've yet to find a popular game that didn't have at least some problems with balance or player and B. the laws of a system are governed by devs who are by no means beyond reproach. While a perfectly balanced game is a nice thought, it frequently breaks my suspension of disbelief when I see characters do stuff that is clearly busted in half and then brush it off.

[@Saltyoven]

I'm planning on making a dnd campain based on the idea of a broken fantasy rpg. The playable characters are all npcs who have all become self aware of how fucked up their world is and learned to survive by exploiting bugs in the system.

[@Saltyoven]

each character has a signature power based on game bugs. an Example: T-Pose Sempai: slides along the ground in a T-Pose. No one knows how he fights but slashes appear near opponents he's close to. (all close range maneuvers have advantage, and close range physical that connects has a bonus d6 die where if you land a 6, inflicts fear status on enemy)

[@HazeEmry]

Idk why but I'm thinking what if in the Yu-Gi-Oh anime the main character is able to bypass the games mechanics and win by ass pulls. BUT the reason why he's able to do it isn't because of some mystical, interplanetary, dimension hopping deities, it's because his duel disc is simply one of the few faulty ones made in a factory that somehow allowed the duel discs to be in circulation

[@snorpenbass4196]

....so Bofuri is basically "why non-griefer players like playing MMO's, even bad ones", and ID is "how a SOA-like game might actually work instead of being a shitshow that shows the creator has no clue what games are like"? Coo'.

[@aincradarchive]

The creator of SAO knows how games work, do your research Sword Art Online main inspiration was the pioneer of MMOs called Ultima Online. A MMO with no class system and where all the skills level up thanks to grinding. Sounds familiar?

[@natchu96]

ID actually handles worldbuilding and characters arcs pretty well...or the light novel does anyway. The anime is, as is the usual by now, rather rushed. And well it's a pretty broken and unbalanced game but basically every player is broken in some way and it's really only the NPCs that get shafted, so it could be worse.

[@STN4D]

Bofuri is just fun to watch since you don't have to worry about anything at all other than Maples' weird skills

[@noukan42]

Sao is not a mmorpg tho, it's a death game made by a madman for the sake of having an adventure that just looks like a MMO. SAO has many flaws but the game not being super realistic is not one, because we know the dev and what he wanted to do, wich is not a normal mmo. I don't remember enought of ALO and GGO as games, but they seem closer to what a normal MMO looks like.

[@natchu96]

@@noukan42 It was very much marketed to the public as an MMO, and none of the development staff involved with the game actually had any idea about the death game plot, except the man who created the technology for the game. So, no, it had every reason to be a properly designed game, especially after getting a beta test and everything. ALO and GGO have their own extremely questionable decisions to poke fun at...especially ALO which retains almost all the flaws of its predecessor except for the lack of ranged combat. And even then "class" roles are locked by race...as is the larger PVP faction conflict as a whole. So you're literally looking at pure DPS parties going to war with healers and blacksmiths and this is just supposed to be okay.

[@TGNXAR]

I just noticed, in the scene where Sally was carrying Maple piggyback to exploit her high speed vs. Maple's terrible movement rate, you could see in the background the edge of the render horizon. Neat detail.

[@ShinGetsu857]

I think it coul boil down to a much simpler question : "Are those game fun ? Would I have fun playing those games ?" Both Infinite Dendro and Bofuri answer this with a resounding yes. Those games sounds fun. I'd love to play them. Bofuri offers a liberty of builds even larger than a Dark Souls, while Dendrogram adapt to your f*cking personality and action to make something you WOULD enjoy. Pretty much every other game from the SAO universe are the complete opposite of fun. Maybe GGO could be, but again it's just a FPS, so nothing strange about that.

[@sanstheblaster2626]

Bofouri shows accurately the social aspects of an MMO RPG (so, with in-game chats where the most famous comments are things like "ur mum gay, noob" or "too op Sakurai plz nerf") Log Horizon shows accurately how the combat system of an MMO RPG works (so, uh, manly by learning boss patterns until you know exactly what an enemy will do from the way they will move their feet, redirecting the damage towards the tanks, buffing like shit your DPS dealer and then beat the shit out of the boss during the recast time.)

[@worldweaver2691]

yep

[@JeremyCoatney]

I want an adorable giant flying turtle mount.

[@vaiyaktikasolarbeam1906]

and ACID RAIN!

[@inura25]

FFXIV

[@shadowpod13]

Well actually... It's a normal turtle that she Giant Sized, then she's using a psychic movement skill to make him fly.

[@Shalakor]

@@shadowpod13 So, using him as a mount is the equivalent of using Magnesis on stacked mine carts in Breath of the Wild...

[@zidaryn]

@@Shalakor Yep. At least as far as I know.

[@LieshaCichol]

6:35 "Chat log, which, side note, I wish were subtitled better." Don't worry, Japanese watching raw have trouble reading it as it goes as well (most pause to read)

[@hangoverbirdman6339]

Yea, I don't think anyone could read that fast, those chat logs at the end are one of my only gripes with bofuri. Also didn't expect to see you here, I love your translation work!

[@sengiko]

In gogoanime there is always a guy that puts all of those chats in the comment section

[@twilightchaosangel011]

I have an issue on my tv with Funimation where I cant pause and the chats go too fast to read more than one subtitle :(

[@ningensan8198]

Its better so they dont take much of the episode screen time! I just got used to pausing at the end to read them

[@Mernom]

@@sengiko I've never seen that.

[@BigHeadClan]

Artistic Vision within an MMO really is an unsung aspect of game design and I couldn't be happier when you brought it up Jeoff. I can still clearly remember playing WOW for the first time back in 2005, I was blown away when I realized the Night Elf starting zone was atop a massive tree. I then proceeded to run across the entire continent to Winter Spring at lvl 8 (While dead) spending hours simply to admire the world Blizzard created based on the Warcraft games and books. Eventually I found myself sneaking into an admin restricted zone called Hyjal and seeing the skeleton of the WC3 final boss lying against the world tree. It's an amazingly memorable moment driven solely by a desire to explore the world the developers had created. That's a sensation I can only really recall for a handful of games like the openings to FF7, Half-life or Resistance 2, the final boss fight of MGS4 etc.

[@randumo24]

Bofuri's game, NWO would be a much more successful game than Infinite Dendrogram's. While ID's has a really cool idea with the Embryo system, it also sucks at the same time. Whatever you end up getting in your embryo basically chooses what role you will end up playing in that game for the rest of your time playing. There isn't much freedom of decision on what to do in the end. If you want to go out and so something where you're fighting, but you end up with a passive embryo, you're basically screwed. While NWO might seem unbalanced for the main characters, I think that's really for anime entertainment purposes. It seems like, outside of certain introduced powerful characters that are needed for entertainment, the thousands upon thousands of other players seem relatively equal. Having such an expansive world to interact with where you can do pretty much whatever you want to is the kind of game that would be extremely successful.

[@weberman173]

i mean, i agree, but wasnt the embryo system designed in a way that it most closely matches the Players "character" so its unlikely that someone who only wants to fight would get a passive embryo and vice versa but yay ID has a problem of inbalance by design, as embryos are REALY not equal, as we saw so often in the show with superiors just being. WAY to powerfull in any awy imaginable

[@NoOne-gg5mc]

10:12 So players like me who cares more about the fashion than the stats are freaks of nature? Sounds about right.

[@meursaulty6672]

May I direct you to the streamer Dan Gheesling, who would only choose to wear gold armor on his very first playthrough of Dark Souls.

[@kylerivera3470]

Well, it ultimately comes down to how far people are willing to go down the path of the killer clown-suit. Certain games though have set bonuses and ways to customize equipment appearance which helps deal with that problem to a certain extent.

[@evros7753]

Bro just mod ur shit and change how the armour looks

[@elsewhereprince3969]

I like systems like in GW2 where you can choose a piece of gear for stats and then apply the skin of a different gear for the appearance.

[@diogoantonio3644]

Try FFXIV , the true endgame is the glam (like the transmog in wow but free)

[@Beriorn]

7:19 I'd watch an anime based around a game and playerbase like that of EVE Online. Big political schemes intercut with massive space battles? Yeah, I'm game for tha- wait a minute... wouldn't that just be Legend of the Galactic Heroes?

[@jakematthews6474]

I thought that log horizon was closest too that style of game.

[@danielthemaniel8601]

I'd watch an Avabel Online anime PS join my guild Dark★Mark

[@trygveplaustrum4634]

No, Legend of the Galactic Heroes is too preachy. They are constantly noting how war is bad, while still engaging in war. EVE Online corporations recognize and instead embrace their supposed villainousness. The following are both quoted from their respective sources: Yang (LotGH): "The greatest freedom is the freedom not to get involved." Mittani (EVE Online): "Who is right and who is wrong doesn’t really matter: if we do not invade Fountain, someone else will--and they will enjoy the kind of wealth that we once had, while we wallow in wrenching poverty."

[@spark9189]

@@trygveplaustrum4634 the best part about those quotes is the eve online one is from a real person

[@danielward9758]

@@trygveplaustrum4634 i swear everything i hear from these EVE stories make me amazed there hasn't been a space epic series written/filmed about them

[@pilotman9819]

At least in Bofuri the players know when someone is OP ans discusses what to do and even the Devs stepping up as someone found a way to totally destroy the game. Like, if GGO were real and someone like Kirito would appear and best a mini game with a newbie character that players who had been playing for years couldn't finish is an immediate BS call and instant hackz report for me.

[@weberman173]

iirc it wasnt a "newby account" tbf, still bullshit, but not a "new account" Hacks bs IIRC as its a SEED Nexus game, certain stats did get converted between ALO and GGO when he converted his character, so he has the equipment of a new player, but possibly the stats of a top player, a top player who is relativly strongly stacked towards Agility and speed(not to the extreme of Yuuki but still extremly stacked towards that) and thats what that minigame needed, extreme speed and agility, together with reaction time. Kiritos build is similiar to Bofuris situation in that "its a build unpopular/unused in the game do to reasons unknown to the viewer" just that it isnt as one sided GGO at least partialy had competent fictional gamedesgin PARTIALY i say. Heck, ALO is a better example of weird game design. especialy with the Race system and the "goal" being to reach the top of the world tree, and only one race woudl reap the benefit of it.... Meaning the game is DESIGNED to discoruage inter racial interaction and alliances, yet only certain races have certain magic, and one of the races is legit basicly useless without support from other races(sprigans aka kiritos race) which is by design discouraged

[@aeldariambitions6334]

7:30 In a way, Bofuri reminds me (in a good way) of all the new players I've taught over three and a half years when I play D&D 5e. Every year I've played with this group brings two or three more people who've never touched the game before; they seem to have an entirely different mindset. . As a Pathfinder and WFRP hound, I love myself a mix of some crunch and the story told through mechanics. I like a name and a method to my madness that' *NOT* DM fiat (5e is...not the best when it comes to avoiding fiat). But to them, this isn't a game or even a storytelling activity - it's a social event. They are here to hang out with the crew, and treat the game more as a medium of interaction, a unique hurdle to interfacing with us. This is in sharp contrast to my more experienced players and myself, who pore over rules and mechanics, erratas and FAQs looking for things we can exploit and stories we can tell with those mechanics. While we can get up to some pretty funny hijinks, nothing ever tops the zany bullshit that the clear-minded new guys and girls bring to the table. Their ignorance of the game allows them to come up with bizarre character concepts that _actually work_ mechanically and are _fun to be with_. Ignoring all the moe nonsense Bofuri puts on, it can be a real comfort show about how the experiences we make in a game are equally, if not more, important than the scoreboard. -If I'm full of it, someone please tell me. Is this a toxic way to think about games??-

[@prozorozo]

This is so wholesome I'm like?!?!??!

[@SegaBlackOps]

You hit the nail on the head for me when you mentioned playing a game for fun. I love Bofuri mostly because it's about a bunch of people and eventual friends coming together and having fun playing a game!

[@RoarTheRapper]

Bofuri Has become one of my new favorites. This is coming from a guy who doesn’t really like video games of this style. You also put me onto “recovery of an MMO junkie”, which is still one of my favorites.

[@goldmemberpb]

Bofuri has definitely been the surprise hit of the season for me because it just has that super solid production value to not only sell the comedy but its action that Infinite dendogram doesn't.

[@Ralathar44]

This tracks, Bofuri isn't really a video game. it's more of a Moe Isekai with a video game aesthetic. It ignores how games work whenever it's convenient. So just keep enjoy the fun cute Moeness of it :D.

[@STN4D]

The only anime this season that I had no problem with the CGI

[@TurtleGamers1]

Yoo I fucking loved recovery of an MMO junkie, but I had forgotten about it Such a cozy show.

[@wiphinmagus7943]

Yeah, that's a really wholesome anime, although the combat scenes are shit.

[@Giantnyaloka]

Bofuri aka. a show about devs that don't nerf an obviously broken combo, but rather remove the possibility to anyone else to obtain it. In a game with a competitive scene. GENIUS

[@alchemysaga3745]

Note: The Light Novel explicitly states that many skills are auto generated by an AI based off the parts of the game they hard coded. Example: They coded in the ability to eat things (food) to increase stats. Someone else apparently coded in for creatures to be edible if their materials they are composed of would be edible. The AI looked at those two things and basically went, "If x can be eaten for stats and skills, and y is made of one of the Consumable materials, then players should be able to consume y in exchange for stats and skills provided they can meet the criteria to consume Y without dying." In world, this was advertised as a draw point for the game- that you could hypothetically end up with an entirely unique character. The LN even addresses that the developers also adjusted the AI following the first event to make the AI less likely to play along with attempts to game the NPC AI to allow for easy getting of Maple's signature skill. It can still be done, but not as easily- and it's less sought as a result of the reduction in OPness, and increased difficulty of getting it.

[@MVimah]

Unfortunately my biggest experience with MMORPG's is wow and every time I see an overpowered protagonist in these games.... I immediately think "FUN DETECTED. BAN!"

[@marsupialmole3926]

I see that you do not understand MMOs then... Or you're a psychopath, kind of hard to tell

[@MVimah]

@@marsupialmole3926 With Activision Blizzard its very easy to tell

[@marsupialmole3926]

@@MVimah Oh right, current WoW. Sorry, you mentioned WoW experience and I thought you meant WotLK or something, you know, back when the "overpowered protagonist" class of Death Knight was running rampant and making the entire game less fun for everyone else.

[@Kulunu1992WOW]

@@marsupialmole3926 They shoot themselves in the foot with, what did they call it back then, Hero class? I think if they had used the Idea of having to sacrifice a character to become a Death knight I think no one would have had a problem. But with only having to have a (was it level 58 or level 70?) character and then you could create the Death knight and then make him so strong was a bad idea. But if he wasn't better then others the players would have also complained as the "Hero Class" was nothing really special only shaved level time of.

[@Kittsuera]

nah, its Nerf it into the ground. OVER CORRECTION is the only kind of correction.

[@powwowken2760]

I thought I was going to love Infinite Dendrogram, turned out it was pretty boring, tries SUPER hard to manufacture tension it hasn't earned and I wasn't really impressed, even if the waifu was legit amazing. I thought I would hate Bofuri, turns out it's amazing, the action scenes are crazy well done, the characters are cookie cutter but entertaining, the meta aspect of the main character actually being constantly nerfed is a welcome addition and also, and I can't state this enough, the action scenes are actually super well done, especially in comparison to Dendrogram

[@Ralathar44]

Bofuri has much higher production values and got a better adapation. Infinite Dendrogram has a better source story, but the execution in the anime fumbles it. Bofuri is a broken MMORPG with little to no narrative and rides almost exclusively off of cuteness, but the execution makes people like it. But Infinite Dendrogram feels like an actual MMORPG and Bofuri feels like an issekai. Take for example how Maple is just allowed to be a broken chosen one and now all her party members are also getting to be broken chosen nes. But the devs just don't care. In a game with as much PVP as Bofuri has shown realistically the game would be a dying garbage fire. This is the level of imbalance that Bright wizards dream of achieving 5% of. Maple is nearly impossible to kill with a full tank build and zero offensive, mobility, or utility stats. Yet the show has her showing top tier offense, able to completely bypass her mobility weakness, and she has tons of utility. Where does her damage and ability to 1 shot bosses and players come from? She has no offensive stats so the baseline damage of hydra must just be brokenly high, and yet no nerfs despite it literally 1 shotting foot ball fields of players (that she also instant cast PBAOE stunned in that same football field sized area). Instead of properly balancing her they just disallowed anyone else from getting her build, creating a chosen one dynamic instead of an MMORPG dynamic. And, unlike Dendrogram, the world setting does not allow this. They give lip service that balance matters, but Maple and co are the only ones who break the game like this. I don't care what the source material says, show don't tell. If you say it but it never actually appears, then it doesn't really exist.

[@schmaul2644]

I agree. I liked ID and looked forward to next eps, because the game itself was a cool idea. But every episodes problem was solved by some new hidden deus ex machina rule, and that's just boring.

[@BadassOverlord]

I read the ID light novel and enjoyed it a fair bit, same with the manga, so I was decently hyped. Couldn't even finish the first episode.

[@android19willpwn]

I thought I would enjoy Bofuri, turns out it's a very conventional moe show with some action-level fight moments but only a moe-level understanding of fights. The Gang meets an enemy, the enemy attacks, they attack back, the match resets to neutral with no visible change on either side, repeat until someone drops dead. It's not a /bad/ show, it's just not any better than the hundreds of other mid-tier moe shows out there. Which is a shame.

[@Ralathar44]

Dues Ex Machina every episode? what? That's only happened twice lol. Once in the first episode when his embryo woke and once when he fought the ogre and Flying the Flag of reversal awoke. That's 2 out of 3 major boss battles...one being episode 1 to set up his base abilities. -1 if you take 1 back for him being horribly ambush murdered in PVP as a battle where he didn't get saved....which basically doesn't happen in these type of shows. He got REKT by the necro monster and Nemesis gave him a potion and then bought him the time needed while he slowly regen'd hp, then he finished it using his two exisitng major skills. My Hero Aca has done ALOT of dues ex machina in it's battles/contests and Bofuri just can't stop throwing new broken powers at the MC, with her being directly saved multiple times by the new skill. Hydra and "impossible" boss are the two most blatant ones. I don't see ID doing anything beyond the ordinary in that regard TBH. If anything it's less BS than many of it's competitors atm.

[@fluffywolfo3663]

5:14 That takes me back to my Destiny 1 days (And to a slightly lesser extent, BL2). Whenever you thought a broken-ass mechanic was gone, you just found a new exploit, and broke the game all over again. Fun times.

[@mRidley508]

With bofuri being a part of this episode we must all remember to hail the almighty defense queen

[@ElliottBelser]

I hope that people don't treat Pervert Penguin Dodgy Potion Unwilling Nekomimi Fetish as equally valid.

[@lordofgangstas]

Let’s be real tho, the lad definitely made his character design better with that

[@kylerivera3470]

I mean, obviously. Anyone who doesn't treat that as the ultimate way to play the game needs to be burnt at the stake!

[@shawnheatherly]

Yeah, I'd pay top dollar for a game where you've got a stand reflective of your personality.

[@laserbuddha]

I'm so tired of all these game animes that have this serious attitude towards everything (it was fun for a while). They all have these fake intellectual philosophical quandaries about life, death, and religion. And they sprinkle in some symbolism so that every wannabe philosophy major can feel smart when they make their lame philosophical observations. Or some dumb premise about if you die in the game you die in life, because we all know that characters walking around constantly depressed, in pain pondering about something makes it really artsy. And then you have Bofuri a series about kids that actually have fun together playing video games.

[@tyrant-den884]

Bofuri is probably the most anti-.Hack anime there is.

[@laserbuddha]

@Afqwa I think it becomes really difficult to speculate about the experiences that are in those kinds of hyperrealistic computer games like Log Horizon, Bofuri, etc. E.g. what would be the point to do something in a simulated reality, if you could do it IRL? E.g. imagine a computer game that was so realistic that you couldn't feel any big distinction between doing something in the real world or in a computer game, like Log Horizon, etc. I don't think they actually would attract traditional gamers. My point is if you liked the PHYSICAL ACTIVITY of sword fighting wouldn't you join a fencing club? It would make sense that people who like sword fighting IRL would like a simulated version of it. But if you look at today's gamers, even if they like sword fighting games, very few of them join a fencing club, because they like the computer games version of it, but not the physical activity of sword fighting. So my point is, what I think you specifically look for in gaming animes, is something like "the King's Avatar". This is about a professional gamer and the gaming community and I think it has all the elements you actually look for in a gaming anime. (I call it anime despite it's Chinese.)

[@HadirUntukAnda]

dont forget about the better SAO anime, SAO:GGO

[@laserbuddha]

@@HadirUntukAnda I really liked it, felt it's a bit underrated.

[@RandomWatcher840]

For all infinite Dendrogram is a game about having infinite ways to play, the story has a morality of good guys are good and do good, and bad guys are bad and do bad. Sure, the game itself isn’t going to stop you from having fun being a bandit/mercenary/evil overlord, but the story sure is telling us how the heroes are playing it the right way and the villains the wrong way.

[@jordanbuckingham8117]

I've wanted to talk about a tidbit that occurred to me when I was watching Maple adorably rampage through her MMO, one of the things you need to take into account when design a video game like New World Online is that what you let players DO. If you let players decide their own stat progression or allow them to allocate their stats some are going to either do it poorly or try to min max. This is the thing about game balance, do you make it so that a stat can only be a set number higher than your lowest stat? or do you make the total defense route a viable way to play? Because that is something you got to take into account when doing game design. Clearly the intent when that system was conceived was that players balance their stats to their liking to best fit their play style, in this case they didn't take into account that someone would put ALL their point in one stat. And that should have been the first thing they tested, because if you let players make an unplayable character then you have a problem. If a player makes builds their character and found out they did it 'wrong' they are going to get frustrated, and whats more you've wasted their time and that's not something you can give back. There was a quote from an engineer that I will carry till I die: "Never assume that your end user is idiot, but never forget that they are."

[@MikeyInsanity]

Bofuri is something completely outside the kind of thing I normally like and yet I like it. And it is definitely fun watching the devs see this one kid constantly break the game and not being able to stop her no matter how many updates they do just to nerf her. Partly reminded me of the World of Warcraft episode of South Park.

[@Ralathar44]

They only nerfed her once, and despite Hyrdra 1 shotting an entire football field of players on a class with no offensive stats they didn't even nerf hydra. There is no actual attempt to balance her. It's basically just a throwawy line they use to tell you "piercing damage exists" and nothing more. Until she fails, dies, or runs of out devour charges and it causes her to lose to something the devour nerf also basically doesn't matter. As of currently it's an arbitrary number they mention that never actually has any impact on how a fight plays out.

[@sambucktooth]

@@Ralathar44 its not explained in the anime(i presume i havent watched it yet) but in the novel when maple's shield eats something a crystal appears and will power an attack, in the novel maple used EVERY magic crystal to nuke all those mages

[@Ralathar44]

@@sambucktooth Irrelevant. Even with that limitation it's still broken AF. She has no offensive stats at all, she shouldn't be 1 shotting higher level players EVER, much less in AOE. With proper full tank build balance even killing a single player should take a reasonable amount of time.

[@sambucktooth]

@@Ralathar44 she had HUNDREDS of crystals by that time the nerf was to put a limit on how many crystals she can gather, that nuke was the equivalent of thousands of MP if not more...

[@Ralathar44]

@@sambucktooth You're only making it worse lol.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

I agree with the whole bit about BOFURI's scenarios and mechanics in-game like the perpetual sunset and eatin a piece of sky. that aone would make the game worth it even if the metagame was disgustingly broken

[@pieoflords5082]

"he constantly changes his looks and playstyle. you know, like how actual humans play mmos" me, looking at my mmo streak: tank with white hair, tank with white hair, tank with blue hair, tank but this time with an axe and blue hair, tank with white hair

[@fluffy7358]

"All hail the walking fortress" The line that instantly sold me on Bofuri. Actually made me laugh out loud.

[@10fingers61]

Digging the editing in this one. Good job, Geoff.

[@mothersbasement]

Credit goes to Adamnator and Trey for their hard work on it! I'm just the words guy.

[@charlesguillergan8759]

Was getting worried about him, he hadn’t made a sao vid in so long but it’s good to know he’s still alright

[@IAMUtubeSockPuppet]

About the tweet at 8:02 For people who are mastery oriented, this type of thinking makes sense. Loss can be a powerful motivator to find ways to improve. "Angry" is bad word choice, but some degree of negative emotional feedback to losing is normal for those who want to win. Perhaps because I do care, badly, to improve in games (and in PvP, the only way to measure that improvement is winning more often), I can sort of understand the sentiment. Especially if the phrase "it's only a game" was used to invalidate someone's investment in competitive play and the outcome of a match. But saying it's GENERALLY a bad thing? Ridiculous. People play for different reasons, and some could honestly care less about winning. It's a poor argument too, assuming "Ninja" is even levying it at those who would say "it's just a game" (in likelihood, they're limply aiming it at people who agree with them already, for validation). It's like telling an atheist they're going to go to hell; they don't see the world the same way at a fundamental level. It's toothless, and just makes the person making the argument come off as (or revealing themself to be) an ass. Some of the people who DO care could stand to really examine themselves and ask if the effort HERE is worth it. I've given up on some games, and while a few of those I badly regret, in others it was retroactively obvious that the frustration at my failure to improve was more detrimental than any satisfaction I gained from victory. Even for those who play to win, the game overall had better be fun unless you're SO good that playing a game you don't like it paying your bills. Caring about losing less in competitive games isn't a bad thing, so long as a) mastery is something you actually care about and grants satisfaction as you improve/prove your prowess, b) the emotional trauma of the loss doesn't exceed the satisfaction of improving, c) you're emotionally intelligent enough to contain your frustrations to yourself. Likewise, not caring about competition is a valid way to play games. As Geoff says later in the video, "games are art," and for a final opinion I want to state that one of my favorite multiplayer experiences, Souls games, happen to be a genre where multiplayer is well integrated into the narrative experience (or, at least, not excised from it). Likewise, I enjoy fighting games that can evocatively express characters in actual play, even if it leads to a degree of imbalance, over something that sells away its soul for perfect eSports balance. ---------------------- Also, on a different topic, I would hope that any hypothetical entertainment product that produces and torments fully sapient AI would never make into pre-production.

[@alb.88]

Im pretty sure bofuri never stopped making me smile. By far one of the most enjoyable and fun binges i've ever had

[@ebenaceto9497]

Speaking of fake games, are you excited for Log Horizon season 3!?

[@Menhtrol]

It's getting a third season!?!?!?! Holy fucking shit :D :D :D :D :D

[@bibicute942000]

Good grief, why I feel like a thousand years have passed since the last season.

[@radude4763]

You’re making a joke right, fame game fake season?

[@Vandreand]

Database database we are living in the database!

[@ExplizitDuester]

lucky me, just finished season 2 3 days ago :D

[@thunder_2124]

7:48 Ninja is losing his mind right now.

[@JonoSSD]

Damn, I miss Log Horizon. One of the best and most underrated mmo anime.

[@JohnSmith-io3ii]

Had to pause this one half way through because Bofuri has been sitting in my queue, so I wanted to go catch up. I'm glad I did it was great.

[@ehmjeyy7814]

I decided to check out Bofuri because of this video, and I'm so glad I did! I really enjoyed it, and I'm really looking forward to Season 2

[@OggerFN]

BOFURI is incredible. I can't stop watching it. I watch every single episode as it comes out and it is just so fulfilling.

[@snotenberg7]

This video is the reason I have an addiction to infinite dendrogram. I have read all 14 of the light novel volumes currently translated on bookwalker, and I am in the process of making a dendro OC. It's so dense and well realized that there are even classes players actively avoid because they dont work well in the meta. I am 100% addicted and cannot wait for volume 15

[@NerdOracle]

I'm hoping one of these VR MMO series eventually tries to touch on how the introduction of full-dive virtual reality that can be experienced at a faster rate than the real world is affecting their worlds. particularly in the case of things like schooling, government, business, etc. it sounds like something that should be making busy work and mental labor much more time-efficient and should be a hot commodity even outside of entertainment. paperwork, schoolwork, conferences, long-distance collaboration could be like 3 times faster and much more convenient as well. imagine artists or writers, any other sort of creative hobbyist using VR to make their art at a break-neck pace. maybe even prisons have a use for virtual reality. maybe it has some application in editing, streaming, hell even a video-sharing platform(not too unlike our own right here..) one day.

[@SecretIdentityStudio]

Bofuri is adorable and great. Haven't checked out ID yet.

[@EvaFuji]

You should it's pretty good and unique

[@Ralathar44]

Bofuri is a mediocre world/story with a great adaption and good production values. ID is a great world/story with a mediocre adaption and production values.

[@SebastianRivera-mv8hg]

YES, GEOFF IS BACK, been waiting for a new video for like 3 weeks, keep it up man

[@Xenodyne]

Lol I mixed up Log Horizon and Infinite Dendrogram, thinking Dendrogram was going to be more than 12 episodes and now I'm sad. Also, can we take a minute to appreciate Franklin's VO's performance? What an amazing english dub performance!

[@TheCreepypro]

really nice to hear that there is way more to both of these shows than anyone else has bothered to mention I feel way better now about going to check them out

[@ScytherInsomniac]

Man , I don't keep up with SAO but it sure does live rent-free in that head of yours lmao.

[@abrahamruiz6779]

Uuuuh, I'll be waiting on that potential Judgement video essay.

[@codybrown6330]

I still can't get over how good some of the fights in Bofuri are. They aren't mindblowing or top tier, but they are still really nice to look at. Something I didn't expect from a moe show.

[@sukikurai]

god damn it you know exactly what to say to get me into an anime. the way you’re are describing infinite dendrogram or however it is spelt is making it sound that the anime i have always been looking for

[@Eli-el4ls]

When are you gonna talk about the beautiful madness and chaos that is Doroherodo?

[@AemilianaRosewood]

Please rise higher so our Lord may see your comment :)

[@marinehakobyan7005]

plz do a video about dorohedoro manga i beg yooooooou.

[@android19willpwn]

when Netflix lets it out of Netflix Jail because the basement boy is a good, law abiding citizen.

[@Fish-ub3wn]

Yes please, Dorohedoro is... Doro?

[@marinehakobyan7005]

i am curious of how other people found about dorohedoro's manga. because boy is this manga underrated.

[@MNewton]

Two things about dendrogram: One, while the 24 hour penalty may be something in a game, in the anime it has absolutely no narrative weight. When our boy gets offed, they show a scene of him taking off the helmet in the real word that lasts maybe five seconds and then the very next scene is back in the game as if no time had past. We are told it was twenty four hours but it might as well have been fifteen seconds. Two, at the beginning of the anime I had a pretty good handle on the mechanics, but as it went on and especially toward the end I had no idea what was going on at all. After I watched it to the end of the season I literally had to go to the wiki entry to figure out what had just happened mechanically. As an example, sometimes he can get buffs from his miasma and using the halberd form and sometimes that doesn't work and it was absolutely not clear to me why this was until I read the wiki entry and even then it seemed like the answer was 'plot convenience.' Also, if said miasma will debuff him if he's not using the halberd form then why is he frequently striding through said miasma with sword form out and not being effected by it? It clearly effects him when he first uses it, accidentally shooting himself... but not later? I imagine all of this is clearer in whatever source materiel there is, but it was not clear to me in the anime at all. I watched this anime purely through the recommendation of this channel and while I enjoyed it for what it was I feel like it was on the whole pretty average for this type of show.

[@darkrite9000]

So close to the end of the video I heard something quite familiar with the background music, upon focusing on it, it became clear. That's one of the songs used in Final Fantasy 13, my ears rarely lie to me, and my memory nearly never fails me. So yeah that's nice to hear, and this was a good video.

[@JazzyWaffles]

Literally the moment you described Bofuri, I stopped the video and proceeded to watch the entire first season. Season 2 is a whole year away and I already want to see it... (T^T)

[@baconsir1159]

Bofuri be like “ A Tank?! *In an MMO?! UNHEARD OF!!* “

[@coyraig8332]

Specifically a (mainly) solo tank

[@Saltyoven]

hard disagree with infinite dendrogram, but bofuri is the type of vrmmo anime I've been wanting explored for an extremely long time. I wanted one where the game was actually terrible, and the op protagonist gets there because they exploited what was in place. And it to be reflected because the game itself is broken rather than the writer not caring.

[@Kelarys]

I was really hoping you would talk about either one of these soon, and I'm delighted to get a 2for1. I already loved LN of Bofuri and it was the book I most wanted to see adapted to anime, and I'm having a blast. That montage song is a total bop. And Infinite Dendogram has really impressed me with how well written it is, to the point that they successfully convinced me to ship the characters even though one isn't real. I think I might just take you up on that suggestion and go read the books.

[@taintedmyth0s636]

9:34 I'm sorry, is that a Team Yell Grunt? Obligatory joke aside, this is a great video. I got the notification for it when it came out but hadn't had a chance to watch it. You bring up a lot of awesome points that I hadn't thought of. It also led me to Infinite Dendrogram which I hadn't heard of, and you've definitely made it sound like it does cool things with the idea of a video game. Basically, great content as always, you're really skilled at your craft :)

[@ashrimpcalledhank]

When I first watched Bofuri I wanted to know if they straight up skipped a closed beta. I have closed beta six different MMORPGs and I know most of Maple Mayhem should have been caught in closed beta before the game opened to the public.

[@khaiodie2273]

5:43 maple falls and everyone immediately checks for a scratch

[@Zerolink30]

I have watched both show and by far Bofuri is my favorite off the 2. The idea that a new game gets exploited, hacked, glitched etc just adds to the game's "realism" the only difference is Maple is doing it by accident and plays for fun while others do it bc they always want to win. Which btw i tend not to consider Maple broken sure she has mad DEF and HP but at the cost off everything else, 0 SPD (she can only walk), 0 MP( if it wasn't for her shield's Devour she probably could only cast Hydra once), 0 DEX (she can never dodge a hit), 0 STR (i would be impressed if she does more than 10dmg per hit)

[@olandir]

5:30 "The most loveable cinnamon roll to ever exist" is such a perfect description of Maple!

[@slimjim1002]

* in a show/anime/movie * “Hey, you want to go play call of battlefield on our X-Station?” “Nah, id rather play MineBlox.”

[@KRP71390]

As someone who first read through the first I.D. LN, then watched the anime episodes corresponding to said LN, and has just finished the second LN with plans to watch some more anime, I can completely agree on a couple of points that lack storytelling in that anime. It hasn't come up too much yet but, due to spoilers, I already knew a significant reveal going into the first volume, and was rather amused at the multiple bits of foreshadowing I'd found in the second and third chapters that point out what I'm expecting to be revealed in either the third or fourth LN. So when I got around to watching the animated episodes covering that LN, I was a bit disappointed that they completely cut most of it out. In fact, while I may have to watch it again, but I don't think there was a single actual reference that someone who isn't already in the know might be able to use to guess that plot point in those episodes. There were a couple more references in the second volume as well, and, while I've yet to watch the relevant episodes, I'm already expecting those references to be cut, too. I get the feeling that, if this were left up to people only watching the anime, the 'twist' will end up a bit too unexpected, at this rate. Some of the other bits of foreshadowing and such are also there, but those were more subtle in the first place, and even then stuff was cut. As a supplement to what I'd already read, it works out fine, but I can't help but pity the lost opportunities. Then again, this tends to be somewhat common when translating LNs to other forms of media.

[@microwaevy]

I'm really happy you made this video. I'm someone who loves both Infinite Dendrogram and Bofuri but since the start of the winter season all I've seen are cynics who visibly don't really care about the VRMMO genre or just pit both shows against each other even though what they're trying to accomplish are completely different. It would be awesome if you could read ahead the novels in Dendro and make a video in the future about it, because I definitely agree that the series is made in a way that begs the reader/consumer to interact with it and pick apart the threads it uses to make up the thematic fabric of the story and its characters.

[@koreaboo6749]

I didn’t even get halfway through the video before I went to go watch Bofuri. Thank you for introducing me to this show. I had so much fun watching this.