The Ashen Forge: Episode 101 - Freeholding with Guest Liniker | An Ashes of Creation Podcast

[@Listoic]

Dygz not playing what could be the best new MMO in decades because he can't go on an open ocean pleasure cruise is mind-boggling.

[@TheoryForge]

I think he will play once he feels and sees what release is like -Fantm

[@GuildaNovaOrdem]

Thanks! was nice chatting with you guys!

[@TheoryForge]

Thank you and I am looking forward to the next time! -Fantm

[@danielcerny8831]

For pure pvpers who hate any pvp that is out of their control ashes is not the game but still I believe in Steve's vision of risk vs reward. Will I go for all the risk? No at least not always and without some form of risk mitigation ie good pvp gear and setup if I want to go exploring the open seas but I know the risk and I prepare for it... If that is too much for some? Well I don't see any other way which is not too much the other way around

[@TheoryForge]

PvP is 100% needed for nodes to work and generate world change. The level of control, wherever it ends up with testing, will I think definitely be a measuring stick for most players and whether they stay. I am super interested to see how people take to open seas PvP when their ships spaws all the way back on land. -Fantm

[@Fiddlez14]

I think most people are confused by AoC. They think PVP,PVE, casual,hardcore. They want to know what label it is to see if they want to play it. As far as i can tell and the reason i am a big fan is the focus is more on the experience rather then trying to create a label to fit under. It has PVP, it has PVE, it has casual and hardcore elements. All in service to the vision of creating a world to exist in, really supporting the idea of a RPG, except your character exists in an actual world with real danger and intrigue. People are concerned about the PvP in this game but if you dont want to PVP you will probably go for very long periods without any. Besides the corruption system/inventory/TTK/ looting times/spawn locations etc , there will be social and political aspects that will be a deterrent to PKing.

[@TheoryForge]

That is a very good point. Maybe we should stop looking for a categorical experience and just enjoy the experience

[@drezaoc]

Thats It 👏🏻

[@devincook1396]

I think we will have to hear a more clear vision from Ashes developers about what the average pvp encounter would look like. Is this something you encounter daily? Is it something you might see 1 or 2 times per week, is it less than that? It all comes down to moderation and what recourse is there afterwards? I think they are still debating this internally so they have outlined their tools, but never nailed down a solid vision of their expected numbers for pvp encounters. The current explanation seems to have people on the fence... The open seas idea is interesting, but I think forgoing the corruption system, that they tout as a protection on land, sends the wrong message. A lot of players look to the corruption system as a balancing force, and they have to state their case on the open seas issue, because it's not there as just a preventative, but it is also a comfort to know that they are going to face some degree of punishment and risk as an equivalent exchange for ganking me. If they want to make piracy different from highway robbery and bandits, they should find a way that keeps the corruption system. I mean there are no bandits more infamous than the pirates of old, so why they wouldn't face these negatives doesn't make sense from a story telling point of view. You can sink a ship and kill its crew and then sail right to port with their goods? weird. Perhaps they expect encountering other players on the open seas to be so uncommon that the corruption system would be over kill and it would result in a below risk vs high reward situation.

[@TheoryForge]

You are right. The open seas decision is an interesting one. My main complaint is as you said it removes the semi protective factor of PvP but adds a lot of PvE content. Seems like an odd balance to make. -Fantm

[@Fiddlez14]

I think there's a clear direction or vision they are looking for. So this is something that will be need to be tested. They will need to make the penalties or punishments severe enough to discourage a majority of players. The problem is most players don't have experience with this type of system.

[@devincook1396]

@@Fiddlez14 I feel the OVERALL idea is clear, they want a risk vs reward balance in the world through pvp without there being unbridled amounts of pvp going on. However, beyond that, we don't really know what their idea of a balanced risk vs reward will look like. Balancing the corruption can only be done if they have an idea in their minds that "X" amount of encounters per week is their goal. Plus without the corruption system, what does balance look like in the open seas? I actually played a game called Tera online that had an infamy system that was along the same lines. There were no factions and killing players was allowed, but you would gain infamy and the punishments became more severe the higher the infamy, excluding the sanctioned guild declarations of war pvp. PvP outside of the guild wars wasn't as common, and you could see players with infamy from further away, because they glowed red, which was normally enough to avoid them if you weren't actively fighting alot of mobs. I enjoyed the system compared to when I played older versions of WoW, where people you saw that were flagged red were all flat out enemies and not potential friends in a faction-less system so that kinda plays on the psyche too.

[@Fiddlez14]

@@devincook1396 I don't think it's as simple as just a system they want to implement. It's much broader. I definitely believe I know exactly what he is trying to build. UO would be the closest thing I believe if you're old enough. In Ultima there was just a "corruption" system and crafting. You could break in to people's homes/castles,steal boats etc. When you went out in general it was relatively safe but there was always that presiding sense of danger. Players much stronger would come by and rob you, which I am not sure if AoC has considered. I created a PK killer and one day while roaming in a common area for PKs I saw a low health one running....I gave chase and found 5 heavily armoured PKs waiting on ambush. Now you don't need to be a Bounty Hunter but using their services or just knowing that players have the capability of killing you changes the dynamic. It's not like WoW where everyone is just the enemy.

[@megamcee]

Oh, putting faces to the forum names will be fun.

[@TheoryForge]

Sure will be

[@bernardogriz]

Pela Nova Ordem!

[@iurisilva3160]

Nova Ordem

[@davidsumpter4933]

I have a small concern with nodes and freeholds. A node is leveled and maintained by the xps in the zoi. Since you can't get a freehold till 50+, how many of these level 50 players will remain in the zoi instead of exploring and questing elsewhere, then comming home at the end od the day contributing nothing to the node. Or do you think everyone will stick to the local content and the couple of level 50 dungeons?

[@geticced]

I'm sure there will be other ways of contributing to a node, other than just collecting xp around it (by killing stuff, doing quests, etc.). You could imagine players coming to the node, back from a gathering run, where they process/craft stuff. That will also add to the node xp. But, dungeons and the content around nodes isn't always going to be the same. It all depends on the node, its level, etc. So you might not always see the same dungeon around the node, or same world boss, etc. It's going to take some time before players really establish themselves in certain nodes. I expect the starting areas to level up first, but as the game goes on and as the players progress, we might see changes to that, as players discover more optimal locations for high level nodes, etc.

[@TheoryForge]

Hopefully by level 50 the node will already be stage 3 or higher. If not, hopefully, the world will be so big and fast travel so limited that the only realistic thing to do is stay at the node and do content, assuming they provide said content. -Fantm

[@sliceofheaven3026]

How do you do a mmo where you can quest forever? If you play 2 to 4 hours a day then how can the quests just keep going on in a way that they are meaningful and not just kill and fetch type quests? Maybe AI can in the future gives us that kind of mmo experience but until then I think we are stuck with getting new content once in a while.

[@TheoryForge]

Horizontal progression should be abundant and meaningful. That's one way to do it. With Ashes the hope is there will also always be player driven conflict which provides changes to the world through the node structure.

[@sliceofheaven3026]

@@TheoryForge Well Guild Wars 2 has horizontal progression but that is also dependant on steady updates in the form of living story. Player driven conflict is present in a lot of mmo games already currently. Not sure that content qualifies as quests. Also if players are having to repeat the same kind of node based pvp conflict for months on end withouth new stuff added in the content will probably grow stale like in any other mmo out there.

[@geticced]

(if you're responding to Dygz) I don't think he necessarily meant quest in the traditional sense, as in go talk to this person, and do x, y or z. It's more about creating a dynamic world, where events will act as quests. An event pops up, and you have to do something, whether it's gathering materials, killing mobs, etc. EQ Next was going in that direction, afaik, and Ashes is definitely going in that direction (though you'll obviously have regular quests like in WoW or any other game). With that kind of system, you don't run out of quests. They just keep popping up at random, depending on what happens in the world. Adding new content on top of that, with new stories, quests, zones, is just a cherry on top. GW2 actually does something like this, and it doesn't have a great treadmill system. It also drops new content with new stories and maps in each expansion. It honestly sounds just like what Dygz might be looking for. I personally dislike having no endgame, where you just run around doing the same stuff every day, running the same events, just so you can get some gold or w/e. The reward system in that game is meh, and the only real reward is getting a more convenient gaming experience, rather than getting more power. That game is all about enjoying doing random stuff, it's all about enjoying playing the game, because like I mentioned, the rewards are awful, and if you're someone who enjoys getting rewards for completing stuff, then this game lacks in that area. It's sadly not enough to keep me playing the game, although it's just what a lot of players are looking for.

[@PherPhur]

Alright, last message, I won't spam. When Steven was on here a couple weeks ago IIRC he had said you'd be able to bid with both gold or these favor points, as if to say you could bid against people bidding with gold, with favor. Then in Stevens recent appearance on Kaos's show he was saying there would be gold bidding on some freeholds and separate freeholds that were bided on by favor, as if to say certain ones are favor only. But then he preceded to make a note about how those ideas are still very loose and subject to change. Also, keep in mind how Steven stressed very hard when he said that siege declarations would be the price of what the node is worth. As if to say that was going to be incredibly expensive. Sieges should be quite rare, intentional and coordinated.

[@danielcerny8831]

Also there is always the talk only about the "pvp" griefing but how about the "pve" griefing like going out of your way and killing the mobs in front of other player who on pve server has no way of fighting back

[@TheoryForge]

I would think that's pretty rare. At least I've never encountered it. -Fantm

[@danielcerny8831]

@@TheoryForge that is pretty common tactics to get you to leave valuable hunting grounds when pvp is not an option. By making you frustrated and your farming not as effective

[@MrSibercat]

BDO has pvp corruption system, it works pretty well

[@TheoryForge]

That's the hope. That they take previous systems like BDO, AA and Lineage 2 and iterate on them in a positive way.

[@Peregrinum]

Pela Nova Ordem! 🐺

[@sahiibshow8206]

I have watched this show for years and years. Dygz don't like PVP, is this so hard to understand? Also Dygz almost always say opposite thing what you think he should do. Hes mind uses Reverse psychology. Learn these things about Dygz and don't push to him what you think is good for him and you can talk so much useful stuff here not arguing trying to force him your ideas and will. I love you all, but i still don't understand how wont you know Dygz after so so many years guys ;)

[@TheoryForge]

Dygz is dygz. You are 100% correct.

[@weneedmoregold]

I played Lineage 2 for a decade and as a pvp player I wanna say - Ashes 100% need control they PvP side gameplay. They should not make this game like survival games. Or it gonna be just not a hardcore, but asscore. Freehold system with such mechanics when u lose everything when someone won a Siege and can robe you - will look this game more than Rust, but not L2, AA and etc games what was insipiration for Steven.

[@TheoryForge]

Love that term. "asscore"

[@PherPhur]

I said griefers, not gankers. Serious griefers don't think, they just kill. Give them 4x xp penalty, make give them a little debuff, give a chance for their gear to drop? They die and drop their gear? Farm it back and do it again. One of my best friends is like this, it makes no difference to them, the fact they can is all that matters. And anyone who's been playing video games a lot online the past 10 years knows that's a sizable portion of players, or just played Rust for a few hours.. good lord. But not nearly as large as the portion of players who will die once or twice to a grief and uninstall. PvX in AoC isn't going to work at it's true potential if they scuff the launch by not starting off with corruption tuned to 1-2 kills you get bricked levels, especially this day in age for video games, you mess up on your presentation at launch and you've just severely fucked the whole project up permanently. Corruption will surely be tuned very tight at launch. And i'm not saying Steven bowing to either side, but there's a way launch needs to happen cause it's better to have the hardcore griefers leave than the sensitive casuals, better number wise too in terms of business(not like that should matter, but it is icing on the cake). Also, I will kill a farmer just for looking like a farmer, if he's solo and I think I can take him. That's what people don't get, they try to apply their reasoning to these people, but to me the loot and corruption are secondary, I'm on a mission and that's just the cost/reward. The mission gets completed either way those things are factored in. Unless it's so dang severe it feels like I got bitch smacked by a GM when it happens. But a tight tune on start will put many griefers off the game, make casuals feel like Intrepid cares about them, then they'll tune it back to 2% like Steven wanted. Bounty hunters won't exist for weeks, so the systems attached to corruption won't matter until it's time anyways. Edit: I wanted to note that I don't consider myself a griefer either, at least not a hardcore one, I don't body camp, I wait for people to eat/drink, I'm just a villain looking for a little mischief and maybe a great fight. So read what I said about my own playstyle and now imagine the griefers more hardcore than me. These are the hackers, these are the cheaters, you remove them from the game and they make a new account. It's not about even winning to those people, it's about making someone elses day crap, that's a griefer. To the extremes they are the soon to be murder hobos that will auto attack you for hours with a stick just to piss you off. Corruption will be to them what getting buffs, raid consumables, food, ect ect is to someone going for a world boss, just the cost of doing business. They don't think "the loot sucks and I'm getting too much penalty" if the corruption isn't just absolutely wrecking them, they think "this game(of griefing) is hard". They're not trying to kill a world boss, they're trying to kill you or piss you off. Just think about what a sweatlord would go through to do something PvE related in a game, now apply that same resistance to stress and long or hard work to the griefer. The reason there isn't vastly more hackers/cheaters in games is because of the IQ filter, but for AoC.. murder hobos, murder hobos everywhere.

[@eliassantos4754]

PELA NOVA ORDEM! 💚💛🖤✨

[@joaomdsm]

Pela Nova Ordem

[@baska-]

Zergs will probably ruin Ashes, this guy is a good example.

[@TheoryForge]

Zergs should be difficult to form meaningfully but we will see what comes out of tested. -Fantm

[@leonaevangelica]

PELA NOVA ORDEM!

[@lucasharushi]

Pela nova ordem!

[@PherPhur]

Dygz ->😩🍰🤏