The Aspects Of The Atonement & The Calvinist Dilemma | Leighton Flowers | David Allen

Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, discusses the aspects of the atonement and the inherent problems Calvinists face by promoting Limited Atonement with Dr. David Allen.
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #Theology

[@KadeStro90]

As someone who’s grown up in a Calvinist home, school, AND church, thank you for blessing my life with knowledge of God’s love for ALL! Merry Christmas and thank you for what you do in JESUS NAME!

[@bornagainbeliever1429]

Amen!

[@JohnK557]

Amen!

[@iglesiadedios.8816]

Praise God!❤

[@TheB1nary]

God’s love for ALL has never been an issue.

[@EricAlHarb]

Come home to the Orthodox Church

[@CynVee]

Unlimited thumbs up and Merry Christmas Dr. Flowers to you and your family.

[@gdot9046]

I believe in limited thumbs up.

[@AlexanderosD]

Merry Christmas Leighton Flowers and David Allen! Keep sharing the Gospel, unlimitedly!

[@emf49]

Another fascinating discussion. I can’t believe the complexity of this Calvinistic systematic! I’m attempting to share the ‘dangers’ of it to my family and friends but it’s so difficult to do this simplistically.

[@jjphank]

This is simple God only predestines plurals: God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@Yaas_ok123]

Get Adam Harwood's Christian theology. Blessings !

[@salvadaXgracia]

Simply put, Calvinism teaches that God only saves those he chose for no apparent reason ("Unconditional Election") and rejects all others with no hope and sends them to hell to suffer forever to get glory for himself. (They would use more euphemisms but that is what it amounts to.)

[@dw6528]

DW: Yes that is to be expected. Imagine a young woman who marries a man and then discovers he can be triggered into states of violent anger and he is now beating her. Her parents start to see the signs of those beatings on her face. But whenever they start to share their concern for her - she insists she is the one who causes the incidents. She blames herself. She insists they do no understand. They do actually understand.. But she doesn't' like what they understand. She wants them to have the same understanding that she has. This is essentially the pattern with Calvinists. They have a god who creates the vast majority of individuals within the human population - specifically for eternal torment in a lake if fire - for his good pleasure. They have a god who creates a large percentage of believers for the lake of fire also. These believers are called CHAFF believers. Calvin's god purposefully deceives CHAFF believers - giving them a FALSE SENSE of salvation. The CHAFF Calvinist will go through his life experiencing a constant stream of infallibly decreed FALSE PERCEPTIONS of election and salvation. He will eventually wake up in the lake of fire and at that point realize he was created as a CHAFF believer. What you see in this picture - is that Calvin's god is predominately MALEVOLENT towards his creatures - and minimally benevolent. The Calvinist does not like that picture - any more than the young woman whose husband is beating her. They're response to the EVIL components of the doctrine - is the same response. They live in denial. May the Lord bless you for your heart of compassion for them!!!

[@TheB1nary]

@@salvadaXgraciathere is a reason - even if it’s not apparent to you: His good pleasure.

[@JohnQPublic11]

Great talk on the aspects of atonement.

[@jordyE..]

As a Calvinist who has been watching many Calvinist critiques online, this video I feel actually represents Calvinism properly, so a big thumbs up to Leighton and David allen for not strawmanning our different positions. May we continue to have fruitful dialogue like this one!

[@JD10503]

You do realize you're giving praise to heretics, don't you?

[@jordyE..]

⁠@@JD10503these men aren’t heretics, they affirm salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Therefore I believe they are apart of the church universal. Wrong about soteriology but right concerning Christ

[@JD10503]

​@@jordyE..They affirm a theology that is contrary to the Bible. Is that not the definition of heresy? There is only one true belief, and it's the very theology they oppose.

[@jordyE..]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@JD10503can I suggest a book? Finding the right hills to die on by Gavin ortlund There is a difference between primary, secondary and tertiary doctrine. We don’t kick people out of the kingdom for secondary or tertiary disagreements. From my perspective soteriology is top shelf regarding secondary issues.. so it is very important. But they haven’t committed unpardonable sin in getting it wrong.

[@JD10503]

​@@jordyE..When it comes to God, every hill is a hill worth dying on.

[@Lorac-wb7io]

I can’t explain in words how much this channel has helped me in my reconstructive theology, because my former pastor convert to reformed theology and hurts many believers in my church . Confusing many of us as or you are Calvinist or Arminian. Now I found this pastor Dr Flowers and give my soul a peaceful life after all this . The joy I felt once was gone and now is resurrected. Merry Christmas to all ! Let’s celebrate the born of the savior of the entire world

[@ZachFish-]

@@fisherman9435What’s this debate look like from that perspective?

[@paolovalenti779]

read my response to this video.

[@ZachFish-]

@@fisherman9435 The topic in view of those who can lose their salvation.

[@ZachFish-]

@@fisherman9435 Probably blocked it. Merry Christmas

[@coreylapinas1000]

Leighton, I would really appreciate if you did a video on Walter Martin's view on the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. God bless you for this ministry. It gave me the answers I needed.

[@Yaas_ok123]

Blessings and merry Christmas from Finland !

[@gracearmor]

I love these dialogues with Leighton and David about Limited Atonement. Jesus is the Savior of ALL MEN!

[@brianschmidt704]

As usual a good commentary on the flaws of the calvinist system doctor flowers. I grew up in a Calvinist church. And so I understand the difficulties that you are describing here. I also know some people who are five point calvinists. I am really hoping that I can get him to watch your debate with doctor white in march. Merry Christmas

[@krazzykracker2564]

I hope the debate will be good. But I suspect it will be a crap shoot. White would only accept a debate in which he could manipulate things. He is not a good fath debater.

[@dw6528]

@@krazzykracker2564 That is correct!!! Under the rules of a Debate platform - a common problem is a person who is a capable *GAME ARTIST* A skilled person can use rhetoric and DOUBLE-SPEAK to make his position *APPEAR* coherent when the truth is the opposite. James White is a DOUBLE-SPEAK artist.

[@brianschmidt704]

@@krazzykracker2564 Yes, yes, I am praying that doctor flowers will try to guide the conversation so that it's not about who's the better talker

[@paolovalenti779]

read my respnse to this video.

[@dw6528]

@@paolovalenti779 DW: What response??

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

I love me some brother Allen ! Everytime!!

[@mrupholsteryman]

I can't help putting the phrase " what we have here is a failure to communicate"... for all the right reasons...

[@bguptill]

I am so very greatful for this discussion. I love how Dr. Allen broke down the 3 forms of the Atonement: intent, extent, and application. I'd like to focus on the concept of "universalism" and how it relates to "limited atonement" vs "unlimited atonement." Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. John 5:28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. Revelation 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Daniel 12:1 Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. At first glance, there does seem to be an unlimited component to Christ's atonement in that both the righteous and wicked are resurrected. However, I believe the "sin bearing of Christ" is applied at the Great White throne judgement in Revelation 20. While ALL will be resurrected, not all will have eternal life in the resurrection. Some will be resurrected to judgement and a second, eternal death. Consider Paul's commentary on the orignal sin (and subsequently, the original death judgment): Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. By a single transgression, sin came into the world, and death through sin (Rom 5:12). For that single transgression, Adam, Eve, all their children, the animals, the plants, and the very ground and world itself. The whole of creation was cursed for Adam's sin. This is a UNIVERSAL judgement for a single transgression. So in order for a resurrection to happen, how many sins need to be forgiven? One. If there was a universal judgement for a single transgression, than atoning for or forgiving a single transgression would result in a universal resurrection. So what we see is that Adam's death judgement was a corporate judgement. But what does Romans 5:16b say? It says the "free gift (of righteousness and life) arose from many transgressions." Therefore, Christ's atoning gift is applied INDIVIDUALLY to many, not corporately to the one transgression. And that is what the Great White Throne judgement is... an individual judgement. So it is in the great white throne judgement where Christ's atonement is applied, not in Adam's corporate death judgement. So how does Adam's corporate death judgement get "repealed" invoking a univeral resurrection by all? 2Ti 1:10 NASB95 - 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, The corporate death judgement of Adam is repealed or "abolished" by Christ's appearing! This makes sense; if you have a corporate judgement, that judgement is only just so long as everyone under that judgement deserves that judgement. But a SINGLE righteous person would render a corporate judgement unjust. Therefore, in order to necessitate a repeal of Adam's corporate death judgement, Christ appeared - a righteous person - thereby causing a repeal of the corproate judgement in lieu of individual judgements. Then, it is the individual judgments where Christ's atonement is individually applied to all who believe. Rev 5:2-7 NASB95 - 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. The seals of the book contain the judgments of God. God waited to judge individual sin until one had come who could take away the sin of the world.

[@paolovalenti779]

read my response to this video.

[@benanderson4118]

Rob Bell connected his reformed theology of unconditional election with 1 Tim. 2:3-4 (God's will that all be saved) and said that instead of God choosing a few people as the elect at the foundation of the world, he chose all. Since all are elect, they must all eventually be saved, even those who are first cast into hell, thus universal reconciliation. Bell's belief is consistent with Calvinistic non-faith election, and strangely, agrees with unlimited atonement since all are elect. Bell is really a product of Calvinism.

[@RandyNathanYan]

Thanks!

[@Orthocurious]

Hi all. Does anybody have 2 extra tickets to Leighton vs James White debate in Houston? My Wife and I weren’t able to buy tickets until now, and they’re sold out. Really hoping we can purchase some off of someone.

[@biblicaltheologyexegesisan9024]

excellent discussion do this with other guests on other topics it is really important

[@kobusleroux1155]

We have to sow the Word, unconditionally, and God already decided.

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

Wow that is heavy! On top of God determining all the hideous evil of the world, on top of determining all of our thoughts and eliminating all epistemology now we can conclude that God determines preachers to offer salvation to people who have NO atonement provided for them. Talk about salt in the wound. So happy God determined me to reject Augustinian Calvinism and believe that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

[@dw6528]

DW: Yes! But the bigger issue is how Calvin's god treats the believer. Calvin's god not only creates the vast majority of the human population for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure. He also creates a large percentage of believers for the same. These believers are called CHAFF believers Calvin's god deceives the CHAFF believer - giving them a FALSE SENSE of salvation. John Calvin -quote But the Lord....instills into their minds such *A SENSE* …..as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11) -quote He illumines *ONLY FOR A TIME* to partake of it; then he....strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8) These Calvinists will go through their whole lives having a constant stream of infallibly decreed FALSE PERCEPTIONS of salvation. They will at some point wake up in the lake of fire - and then realize they were created a CHAFF believer. Therefore the Calvinist has NO CERTAINTY of his salvation because he has no way of knowing he is being divinely deceived. Only the HARD-CORE Calvinist will acknowledge that aspect of their doctrine. And no Calvinist pastor dares to TELL THE TRUTH because they know they will lose their congregation if they do.

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

@@dw6528 I can add another. The god of Calvin makes the “elect” to have uncontrolled anger issues, porn addictions, greed and all the rest of the works of the flesh. It seems if he were going to irresistibly save them he might irresistibly make them “holy” or at least have impeccable morals. You can’t make this stuff up. You almost have to disregard your brain to accept reformed (deformed) theology.

[@TheB1nary]

The alternative is that lots of things happen without God’s decree. So then you have a God who either willingly (or unwillingly) cannot cause things to happen directly to His glory. You limit God equally.

[@TheB1nary]

@@dw6528OK. The alternative is that the atonement is still limited -- by man’s free will choice. God wants all to be saved but they will not be. 😊

[@dw6528]

@@TheB1nary TheB1nary: by man’s free will choice. DW: That use of the term "limited" would have different implications. If you had a choice between [SIN] and [NOT SIN] - and you chose [NOT SIN] - you would not typically consider yourself as being "Limited" You would rather consider yourself blessed that you were given a CHOICE In Calvinism - the state of nature - including every man's nature - at every nano-second in time - is 100% meticulously predestined - and at any nano-second in time - cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to be. And since an infallible decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE to that which it decrees - it follows - ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS do not exist for humans to choose. The difference between the two systems then - is that in Calvinism - humans are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything simply because the infallible decree does not grant ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS for humans to choose.

[@jolookstothestars6358]

I believe hyper Calvinists understand Calvinism the clearest.

[@dw6528]

DW: Yes I agree! I believe it boils down to emotional disposition. There are Calvinists who can look at the doctrine which stipulates a god who creates the vast majority of the human population - and a majority of believers - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure. And those Calvinists do not have a negative emotional response to it. They are willing to accept it. They have a desire to be faithful to the doctrine. They will not permit themselves to compromise the doctrine. However - the MODERATE Calvinist pastor knows if he is faithful to speak the WHOLE TRUTH about the doctrine - his congregation will dwindle down to a few HARD-CORE Calvinists who are happy to tell people they were created for the lake of fire. So the vast majority of Calvinist pastors (Including John MacArthur) present a highly sugar-coated ARMINIANIZED version of Calvinism to their congregations.

[@jolookstothestars6358]

@@dw6528 Yup. If I were ever to become a Calvinist I would be a "hyper" because I couldn't in good faith offer the gospel to someone who may not be elect. Someone who has NO HOPE in this world to ever be saved. Which to me goes against the nature and character of the God of the Bible.

[@jolookstothestars6358]

@@dw6528 Its honestly shameful that there are "Christians" who believe and teach the theology like hyper calvinism, its truly sad.

[@dw6528]

@@jolookstothestars6358 DW: Well there is another way of looking at that. The HYPER Calvinist is typically a person who is trying to be TRUE to his doctrine - and not compromise it. The MODERATE Calvinist is in a constant TAP-DANCE of denial and evasion and obfuscation of those aspects of the doctrine which the HYPER Calvinist simply accepts. The MODERATE Calvinist lies to himself about his doctrine - in order to find his doctrine palatable. And the lies he tells himself to find it palatable are the lies he is going to tell the NON-Calvinist in order to make the doctrine acceptable to them. So the MODERATE Calvinist operates in a degree of dishonesty. Even though that dishonesty is altruistic in nature - it is still dishonesty. So we can give some credit to the HYPER Calvinist for operating in a higher degree of honesty

[@kevinsBiblicaldiscussions]

God bless Leighton. I would love to have a conversation with you sometime

[@jjphank]

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@manager0175]

There is a difference between Atonement, propitiation, and expiation. Expiation for all fallen creation (John 1:29). Propitiation for all mankind (I John 2:2). Atonement for those that believe (John 3:16-17).

[@Notinmywoods]

The Gospel is a command, not an offer.

[@marcelocardoso1507]

Exactly, if limited atonement were true there would be no point in calling disciples to spread the "Good news"/Gospel to the whole World because for some people it's actually terrible news and you can't possibly know who are them.

[@princekermit0]

What I heard from this, was this of the Calvinists it can be said: "For God so hated the absolutely depraved human world, that He damned His Only Begotten Son on the cross, that whosoever (but not really whosoever) believes, along with the unbelievers, that they all should perish, and not have everlasting life, but those who were secretly chosen to be His elect believes will not perish, but receive life everlasting." And this glorifies Him how exactly? Yeeeeesh.

[@wolfwind9658]

one day the question hit me, how can one take the Lord's name in vain if he decrees all things?

[@JohnK557]

Sin itself makes zero sense in Calvinism. How can one miss the mark when all they will do is what God decrees. Isn’t God the one who sets the mark?

[@awesomefacepalm]

​@@JohnK557it's like God grabbing our hand and hitting us with it while saying "stop hitting yourself!"

[@JohnK557]

@@awesomefacepalm Exactly!

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

I would think Calvinists have to spend most of their time trying to make their systematic make sense since it flys in the face of all logic and common sense.

[@dw6528]

DW: Excellent point! This is where we find a certain pattern within Calvinist thinking - which is called *AS-IF* thinking. The Calvinist asserts his doctrine is TRUE while simultaneously treating his doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE For example - the Calvinist will assert the doctrine of decrees which stipulates that *NOTHING HAPPENS* that is not knowingly and willingly decreed. An infallible decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees. So with Adam in the garden for example It was decreed that Adam would infallibly eat the fruit That decree was infallible An infallible decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees Therefore the only event granted existence was the event of Adam eating the fruit The only impulse granted existence within Adam's brain - was the impulse to eat the fruit. Therefore - Adam did not have CHOICE in the matter - simply because no ALTERNATIVE OPTION existed for Adam The Calvinist response to that aspect of his doctrine is an emotional response of denial. So he will treat what the doctrine of decrees stipulates *AS-IF* it is FALSE And that is one example out of hundreds of examples in which the Calvinist treats his doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE

[@JohnK557]

6:50 I disagree. Every orthodox Christian does not limit the application of the atonement. If you properly understand the death, burial, and resurrection then there is no reason to limit the application. Salvation is complete in Christs life. We (believers) are raised with Him to new life. They are different elements of salvation. No one is saved solely based off of the fact that Christ died for all sin you also have to be in Him so that you are raised with Him. Gods word never limits the atonement so neither can we…….

[@Orthodoxy.Memorize.Scripture]

As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, we don’t need to speculate or innovate about these things because our Church has preserved the apostles teaching on this topic.

[@toddwinters7066]

I am not a Calvinist, but I listen to R.C. Sprout (have a book or two). And, even Sproul differentiates between the “Sufficiency” of the cross verses the “Efficiency” by saying the cross is sufficient for all but only efficient for those who believe. Neither side appears to even listen to one another on these discussions. 2Timothy 2: 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, Beloved, let us love one another, openly and when in public (online) lest the world see/hear us and the name of Jesus be blasphemed because of our behavior.

[@casenswartz7278]

As a Calvinist. THANK YOU! You seem like a level headed person who’s goal is unity, God bless

[@dw6528]

DW: Did you notice what R.C is obfuscating? R. C. knows - the doctrine of decrees stipulates an infallible decree PREDESTINES every impulse in the human brain. And he knows an infallible decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees. So what he is obfuscating is the fact that on his doctrine - the reason a person has a NON-BELIEF impulse in their brain is because that was the only impulse an infallible decree granted existence within their brain. R.C. does not want to tell THE WHOLE TRUTH - because he knows if he does - people will reject the doctrine. So he obfuscates the doctrines components of DIVINE MALEVOLENCE - in order to make the doctrine APPEAR to be benevolent when it really isn't Eventually we discover - Calvinist language is not a TRUTH-TELLING language - it is a COSMETIC language. It is language designed to hide the DARK SPOTS on the face of the doctrine in order to create a COSMETIC appearance Blessings!

[@TheB1nary]

@@dw6528stop it 😂

[@dw6528]

@@TheB1nary DW: I know! The truth hurts sometimes. But that goes to what Dr. David Allen was saying in this video. The HYPER Calvinist tends to have an urgency for being TRUE to his doctrine - and he is willing to swallow DARK implications of it. The MODERATE Calvinist spends a great deal of time and energy trying to obfuscate and evade what the HYPER Calvinist accepts.

[@TheB1nary]

@@dw6528 “the truth hurts” 😂🤣

[@John-bibleinsights]

As long as we maintain that "all the ones who believe happen to be the elect" (3:00), the debate between Calvinists and non-Calvinists will never cease. When we make the distinction that the elect of the NT were a very special group of first-century people, "chosen as the firstfruits to be saved" (2 Thes 2:13), divinely enabled to receive the gospel as truth and given gifts as needed to successfully launch the early church, all of the contention goes away, and God is glorified for his effective church-launching strategy. "All who believe" today are simply "Christians" - albeit, nonelect Christians - people who, by God's grace, simply heard the gospel, believed the gospel, received the Spirit. 😊

[@leobaltazar]

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

[@wolverine114]

I found interesting that he said “ as scripture says ‘he bore the sins, of all people’”. Where does he get that? John 3:16 for example isn’t saying he bore the sins of all people. If the cross bore the sins of all, then all are saved. There is no way out of that without sounding like a universalist.

[@danielpickering8814]

1 John 2:2....not universalist, Abraham believed and it was accounted to him as Righteousness...when we believe in Christ it is accounted to us

[@timothykeith1367]

He rambles on, then says this 6:45 : "Every orthodox Christian limits the atonement in the application". In other words the non believer applies an anti gospel - even if they have never heard of the gospel.

[@ZachFish-]

Whachu mean?

[@robertwheeler1158]

I appreciate the fact that Drs. Allen and Flowers clearly distinguished between the views of moderate Calvinists and Hyper-Calvinists. But I am still having difficulty distinguishing between the "extent" of the atonement and its "application." Either someone's sins have been covered by the blood of Christ and he is forgiven, or they and he are not.

[@grizz4489]

May i suggest this. Jesus paid for all sins of all men . The result of this is that sin is no longer a barrier between God and man. In other words, every person has access to God. Jesus paid for all sins SO THAT HE can now give eternal life as a gift to whoever believes in Him.

[@Yaas_ok123]

When you believe, sins are forgiven. But we must stay in Christ by following Jesus in repentance. Believing and "living like the world" is no-no.

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@grizz4489 But if Jesus paid for the sins of all men, then all men are forgiven. Their sins have been paid for.

[@grizz4489]

@@robertwheeler1158 paying for sins to remove them as a barrier does NOT equate to automatic forgiveness. 2 cor 5:19 explains this. God reconciled the world to Himself. In other words God no longer has a beef with mankind because of sins. BUT man now needs to be reconciled to God . Reconciliation is a two way street. The way man is reconciled to God is through faith in Christ where he then has eternal life and Gods forgiveness and placed into perfect fellowship with God. All of that is possible BECAUSE Jesus paid for sins so as to remove them as a barrier between God and man.

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@grizz4489 So a person can have his sins forgiven and still not be reconciled to God?

[@bobswisher4082]

Wow us against them battle within Christianity. Don’t you think a good debate with someone like Vodie Bachman would be good?

[@leodegariobocong9175]

Hi. Dr. Flower what do you mean of provisionist is that the same of contentiounism because there is cessationism thank you Dr. Flower and favor of our living God be upon you and your family always.

[@steventhompson8130]

I agree that God elects to save those who believe in Lord Jesus because of the Gospel; however, I think the 5-point Calvinist would counter your objection to Limited Atonement by saying that only the elect will respond in faith; *So,* although the offer of salvation is made to the people indiscriminately, the elect are the only ones who are meant to respond in faith, because the Gospel is for the elect. *A Biblical similarity to Limited Atonement* would be that God sent the Messiah into the world to preach the Gospel to the humble, the crushed, the heavy laden. *Luke 4:18-19* (WEB) 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” *[Isaiah 61:1-2]* *Matthew 11:28* (WEB) 28 "28 “Come to me, all you *who labor* and are *heavily burdened,* and I will give you rest." In other words, the Gospel is not designed by God to save those who are proud and obstinate, although they also will hear the Gospel as it is preached indiscriminately. *Matthew 11:25* (WEB) 25 "25 At that time, Jesus answered, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you hid these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to infants."

[@TheB1nary]

Isaiah’s mission was like that: “go to a people who WILL NOT LISTEN”. But he had to go nevertheless.

[@godsstruggler8783]

"You're just the delivery boy" Yep.

[@mikem3789]

God should not be assumed limited, human beings should not try to place limits on God, on relationship with God. God decides, the final decision is God’s to make. God’s say, goes. Glory to God, The Kingdom, The Power and The Glory Forever! 😊

[@TheB1nary]

Well, yes. Calvinists wouldn’t disagree.

[@JesusProtects]

Where can I listen to the entire conversation?

[@daddylee4216]

Just subscribed, love the channel. Quick question for all... what in your opinion is the best scripture reference to refute calvinism to a Calvinists? Like which areas do you think are the hardest ones for them to justify and explain away?

[@gdot9046]

Mostly reading AW pinks book “sovereignty of god”. That will give you lots of ammo.

[@daddylee4216]

@@gdot9046 thank you

[@stevehardwick7285]

Who's debts have been atoned for, removed, forgiven? Born again Christians or everyone? I see no dilemma.

[@awesomefacepalm]

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. Atonement=\=forgiveness The sins of the whole world has been atoned for. But only the believers have been forgiven.

[@stevehardwick7285]

So your understanding is that every person in the world has had their debts removed?@@awesomefacepalm

[@awesomefacepalm]

@@stevehardwick7285 No, forgiveness is the removal of sins. Atonement is what made forgiveness possible. 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, *even denying the Master who bought them*, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. These people are clearly not born again and are under judgement, but Christ bought them too, yet they rejected him.

[@stevehardwick7285]

The whole world is participating in the Olympics. The epidemic spread throughout the whole world. The whole world is watching the U.S. election. What do these statements mean to an Arminian or "provisionist?"@@awesomefacepalm

[@awesomefacepalm]

@@stevehardwick7285 In that context it means nations. But I just showed you that Christ atoned for the sin of everyone, even those who reject him. So John 3:16 in the light of this passage means everyone, and not only all kinds of people.

[@gerardgmz]

Im not a Calvinist, but im trying to make sense of how someone's sins could be paid for and still end up in eternal damnation. Furthermore, are the sins of those who didn't hear about Christ before Him and after, paid retroactively? And on what basis would they earn salvation?

[@TheB1nary]

Superb point. Something that retractors of Calvinism don’t really answer.

[@williammarinelli2363]

I have no problem with "Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world." I don't reword that to "Behold the Lamb of God, who saves every person in the world" although provision is made for them. Everyone's sins are forgiven, but access to the grace whereby one is saved is granted to the one who responds positively to the Gospel message and believes. Or, as the Bible states in Mark 3 - "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men." I don't reword that to say "All the children of men shall be saved" although provision is made for them. The man healed in Matt 9, to whom it was said, "Be of good cheer, thy sins be forgiven thee" is one that God is pleased to then save on the sole condition of belief, for "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." I believe what was reconciled includes us (not knowing the first thing about you) but extends beyond the planet - "having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." 2 Cor says, "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them" and I see this reconciliation mentioned in the past tense in the first part of Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" but continue reading the verse and salvation is mentioned in future tense "much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." So there is more than the universal reconciliation, or universal atonement, involved in the salvation of the soul, or as the Book just stated, much more. My question of curiosity to anyone who states in these forums, "I'm not a Calvinist." In his book entitled _Chosen By God_, Sproul boils Calvinism down to "in its most elementary form, is that our final destination, heaven or hell, is decided by God not only before we get there, but before we are even born." Could I get a yay or nay on whether you're on board with that? Again, just curious.

[@grizz4489]

I suggest you study the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20. Those who are cast into the lake of fire are NOT cast in there because of sins. The word sin can not even be found there. No one goes to Hell for their sins, Jesus paid for all sins. People are cast into the lake of fire because their names are not found written in the book of life. They do not have life, eternal life.

[@gerardgmz]

@@grizz4489 Interestingly enough, a few weeks ago, a friend and I were talking, and I had this idea: just as salvation isn't by works, neither is damnation. I was like 🤯

[@grizz4489]

@@gerardgmz The last sentence in your original comment you mention earning salvation. Salvation could never and is never earned . It is a gift, free gift through faith. It has always been through faith.

[@sheilasmith7779]

When Augustine had concerns that Christians boasted of their salvation, he constructed a solution. And his solution was to proclaim that humans have NO part whatsoever in their salvation. God does everything, humans do nothing, except sin. This belief, eliminated human will, human action, and human responsibility. All of TULIP is rooted in Augustine's belief, and Calvin's belief about Christian boasting.

[@dw6528]

DW: Good points! You will notice also that the TULIP was created about 100 years after Calvin's death - and is carefully designed to OBFUSCATE the aspects of divine malevolence which are predominant parts of the doctrine. Take the "T" in the TULIP for example - it is designed to function as a lie of omission. A lie of omission - is communication designed to mislead - by strategically omitting critical facts which if not omitted would not mislead. The critical fact in this case - is the fact that the doctrine stipulates - the state of nature (including every man's nature) at every nano-second in time - is 100% meticulously predestined - and at every nano-second in time cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be. The Calvinist uses the "T" in the TULIP to FALSELY attribute mans abilities/inabilities - and thus man's eternal destiny - to the state of his nature. When the TRUTH is - an infallible decree determines both the state of man's nature - at every nano-second in time - as well as his eternal destiny. Blessings!

[@JD10503]

You call it divine malevolence, but let me ask you this. What reason does God have to love fallen man? He would have been well within His rights to strike Adam and Eve dead. And He would also be within His rights not to provide salvation in the first place. So, what reason i there for Him to show anything but hate towards those who are not saved? Now, I do believe that every moment of our lives is decreed ahead of time. But God is still not bound to show love to anyone. If we are hated by Him, then it's no more than we deserve. Even the elect deserve nothing less.

[@dw6528]

@@JD10503 JD10503: You call it divine malevolence. DW: Creating the vast majority of individuals within the complete human population throughout time - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire for pleasure. Do you define that as Divine benevolence? JD10503: What reason does God have to love fallen man? DW: Your question is designed to function as a lie of omission. A lie of omission is communication designed to mislead by the strategy of omitting critical facts - which if not omitted would not mislead. The critical fact you are strategically omitting is the fact that Calvin's god personally authors every impulse that will come to pass within every human brain - and makes those impulses come to pass infallibly and thus irresistibly - by antecedent conditions ( infallible decree) which is totally outside of human control. The real question is - why do you need to hide behind lies of omission - which are designed to paint FALSE PICTURES? Why do Calvinists have a need to be dishonest?

[@bradbrown2168]

Is PSA assumed here as The Atonement work of Christ?

[@ladillalegos]

I watch this video many times already, it’s like a Masterclass on Atonement

[@kelseyvanevery7587]

Arminius was a Calvinist. Calvinist "lite" maybe, but a Calvinist. Arminius was appointed by Theodore Beza [who presided over the Synod of Dort (Dordt)] to serve at Dort. Arminius spent the rest of his life trying to prove that he was a good Calvinist.

[@ericsloan858]

He Jesus atone our sins thereby removing the effects of sin or not? Atonement is a definite act! There is not partial or potentional atonment. His sacrifice and death didn't merely make atonement poissible in the future. It was finished. Did he pay for your sins or not? It doesn't mean he paid payment a possibility onbly if you would do the work of chosing

[@sethmcmullen2332]

If a Calvinist ever says, "Did Jesus fail on the cross?" ask them, "What did he mean to do?" Jesus did whatever he set out to do. Jesus didn't set out to eternally secure an elect people on the cross. Calvinists set their own standard on what they wanted Jesus to do, and when Jesus didn't do that, they said he failed. Has it ever occurred that maybe he didn't do what you want him to? Maybe he had a different purpose than what you want. Maybe Jesus did what he planned to do and not what you want him to do. Maybe Jesus died for everyone because he wanted to die for everyone. Maybe he succeeded as planned, and it's the Calvinist view that turns atonement into failure. Jesus didn't die on the cross to eternally secure an elect group, so when the Calvinist says he did, they make him a failure. By God's standards, he succeded; by the false Calvinist standard, he failed.

[@grizz4489]

Here is a point i think is missed. The blood of Christ has different benefits for different people that involves different conditions. 1.) The blood of Christ has benefits for all people, unbelievers and believers. 2.) Benefits for believers. 3.) Benefits for faithful believers. All of these can be backed up with scripture.

[@webgold3408]

I contend that the Gospel is not an offer. It is a proclamation of Christ's defeating sin and death. A case in point is Peter's sermon in Acts Ch. 2. In that message Peter never says anything about an offer. He does not say anything about repentance or faith. He does not say "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life", "open your heart and let Jesus come in", or "let go and let God". Yet, after preaching that sermon about 3,000 people were saved.

[@makemoneynow8690]

To you have a video explaining Matt 20:48 and Mark 10:45? " to give his life as a ransom for many"?

[@gdot9046]

Let the scripture teach you. Read Hebrews 2. Just as all offerings weren’t universal, so Christ was just for his sheep. So when it says many, it means many!

[@jettoth3]

In John chapter 10, Jesus clearly tells us that the atonement is limited to His sheep. Who are His sheep? His sheep are those who hear the voice of the Good Shepherd and they follow Him.

[@fernandosviewpoint]

Can a God who calls to salvation those who can not come be trusted? I do not think so!

[@Yaas_ok123]

Luckily He is not like that !

[@dw6528]

DW: BINGO!! Very insightful!!! Yes - Calvin's god is DUPLICITOUS. He has two wills His SECRET will - is DETERMINATIVE - it determines whatsoever will come to pass His ENUNCIATED will is NON-DETERMINATIVE and in most cases is the exact opposite of his SECRET will When his ENUNCIATED will is the opposite of his SECRET will - it functions as a FALSE-REPRESENTATION of his SECRET will. Now in Calvinism - all of the promises to the believer are classified as the ENUNCIATED will of Calvin's god. So when the Calvinist reads "You are beloved" he has no way of knowing if Calvin's god's SECRET will (for himself) is the exact opposite.

[@TheB1nary]

Jesus Himself stated that there were some “who could not come” and some who “would not”.

[@Yaas_ok123]

@@TheB1nary They had their reasons and it was their choice.

[@TheB1nary]

@@Yaas_ok123 “cannot come” and “would not come”. Read those again.

[@Good_apollo76]

As a calvinist (who is working while listening to this so a bit distracted to be fair) I don't think you actually portrayed the calvinist belief. I had issues while listening where I thought that your logical implications of where "our system" goes is based on a false premise of our beliefs. I have noticed this with Dr flowers a few times now. I believe he is doing his work in good faith and do not hold this against him. But I think both sides likely have a lens they are looking through and cannot actually see the other person's presuppositions in this.

[@bobthrasher8226]

Rom 6 and Col 2:11,12 tell us that we realize freedom from slavery to sin through baptism into Christ's death and resurrection. So it would seem God's "intent" is, at least partially, to "save" from the power of sin.

[@jrmitchell12]

Where is an example in scripture of this offer that you is spoke about in this video. Something like "Luke went to Jimmy and said 'Jesus has paid for your sin and if you accept that then you will be saved.'". Like, an example of where they have said specifically that their sins were paid for in order to talk about the good news to that person so that since their sins are covered they just need to accept that and they will be saved.

[@mattleitner5194]

👍🏻

[@Inconceivable73]

So according to Provisionism, how does God provide salvation for, say a Chinese peasant living in the Xia dynasty roughly around 2000 BC? Let's assume this place was clearly unreached with the gospel with no (read: ZERO) gospel-witness. Did God not love these people? Did Jesus' blood atone for their sins? Are these people in hell? I'm very curious how Provisionism explains this.

[@michaelcarpenter7068]

4:01 I only slightly disagree here as there are only two views of a transactional kind of atonement. Another option is to not hold to PSA and suddenly it’s not about Jesus taking the penalty for some or all or potentially all.

[@sethmcmullen2332]

The Governmental view is much more consistent.

[@michaelcarpenter7068]

@@sethmcmullen2332 I’m more of a Christus Victor guy myself.

[@greglogan7706]

What does it mean to "believe in Christ"?

[@grizz4489]

To believe in Jesus is to be persuaded that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God AND to persuaded or convinced that Jesus' promise to give eternal life is true. Have you believed in Jesus for eternal life...?

[@greglogan7706]

@@grizz4489 Thanks for the thoughtful response. How do you know that is what the speaker meant? Is "being persuaded/convinced" re eternal life absolutely necessary to "believe in Christ"? Is it an "essential" to be saved? What would be our basis re such a claim?

[@grizz4489]

@@greglogan7706 Im glad for the interaction ! This is such an important topic. I will answer your questions in reverse. A.) What is the basis ? The gospel of John. The purpose statement is ( John 20:30,31 ). It was written to tell people how to have eternal life. B.) Is believing in Jesus essential to be saved ? Yes. The word believe appears 100 times in John. Jesus says that the only condition required for a person to receive eternal life is to believe in Him. See John 3:16 ; 5:24 ; 6:47 ; 11:25-27 ect.... C.) Is being persuaded or convinced RE eternal life absolutely necessary to believe in Christ ? I hope i understand your question. Let me say this... a person either believes ( persuaded or convinced that something is true ) something or they dont. If there is any doubt then that is not belief. Please read ( John 11:25-27) . Look what Jesus asks Martha ? He is saying " Martha, are you convinced that what i am telling you is true ? Here is another point to consider. To believe in Jesus is to believe in Him for something. It is to believe in Him for eternal life. Another point... this gift of eternal life that Jesus promises is NOT a temporal life that can be lost or taken away. It is divine life ,Gods life, it is forever, irrevocable, irreversible. Read the gospel of John and we can see that Jesus promises that whoever believes in Him has ( present tense ) eternal life, and you will NEVER perish, never hunger, never thirst, never come into judgment, never ever be cast out, never die spiritually, can not be plucked out of His hand or His Fathers hand ect... Another thought.... if a person believes Jesus died was buried, and raised but ALSO believes that they must live a faithful and obedient life to get into heaven, have they believed Jesus's promise about eternal life ? Does that person believe John 3:16 ? No. Another point....when a person believes in Jesus, they get eternal life at that moment. " He who believes in me has ( present tense ) eternal life. One more point. No where does Jesus say that continued belief is required. ( See John 4:13,14.) Only one drink. One moment of belief. The text does not say continuous drinking, continuous belief. The water is the message of life, to drink is a metaphor for believe. Whoever believes the message that i give Him will never thirst. Conclusion, 1.) believing in Jesus for eternal life is distinctly different from discipleship. 2.) Our assurance of salvation should come ONLY from Jesus's promise and not from anything else. Our love for Jesus can fail, our faith can waiver, our moral conduct can vary. Jesus's promise for eternal life.....we can count on, He is reliable and faithful. Read and study the gospel of John. Blessings

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

I'm convinced that the INTENT, the EXTENT, and the APPLICATION of the Atonement - are UNIVERSAL.

[@TheB1nary]

So all are saved? 😂

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

@@TheB1nary Isn't THAT Good News?

[@TheB1nary]

@@TyehimbaJahsi it would be if you can’t be bothered loving Christ and continue to do your own thing and show no repentance and yet still stand before Christ in heaven. But that’s not the picture Christ Himself gave us; and that’s not what the bible teaches. And yet, the gospel is still “good news” to those who are being saved.

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

@@TheB1nary I'm sorry, is Christ the Savior of the WORLD, as the Bible calls Him, or is He not? Is He the Lamb of God Who takes away the Sin of the WORLD, or not?

[@TheB1nary]

I know you find these concepts difficult, so I will put it simply: does the Bible state that ALL will be finally saved, and if it does, WHERE?@@TyehimbaJahsi

[@Jennifer13515]

Many Calvinists don’t consider the gospel to be an offer anyway. More like a proclamation - “God saves sinners- whoever believes” but they think when they say that, only the pre-selected people will be enabled by God to believe. The gospel proclamation is like a dog whistle - they know only the pre-selected people will respond (and even for the pre-selected people it’s only whenever God decides to do the regenerating - could be the first time they hear or hundredth time, on that system God often leaves pre-select people in their sins even most of their life for some reason, we don’t know why) so in their mind, they haven’t lied

[@jonathansteele1057]

Exactly, as a calvinist I, and the ones I know, believe the gospel is a command, not an offer in the sense offer is being used here. It is the means, along with the Spirit, God uses to save the elect. What is clear in reformed theology is that salvation is initiated and accomplished by God. Therefore the atonement is not made for people God will not save. This is because Christ, as high priest, intercedes on behalf of everyone for which He makes the sacrifice. His intercession is of a nature that pleads the merits of that sacrifice. The two acts are inseparable. The debt earned by the elect was imputed to Christ and cancelled at the cross and intercession is made on behalf of said elect. They are then justified by faith in that work, a faith granted to them by God and empowered by the Spirit. Non-elect have no sacrifice, no priest, and no intercessor and their debt was not imputed to Christ on the cross. God does not work in possibilities or opportunities but in accomplishment. Though the Bible uses language that helps us understand things on a human level which is experiential such as repent and believe. That language is often confused to appear as if God is working in potentiality.

[@Jennifer13515]

@@jonathansteele1057 thank you, I’m glad I was able to articulate the view in a pretty satisfactory matter. Of course I still totally with the Reformed Theology worldview; but I do try to listen and try to be able to understand how other people get there.

[@dw6528]

DW: Yes that is correct! But the issue is not what the Calvinist considers. The issue is the language the Calvinist uses when he communicates. He will use language which STRONGLY INFERS things which are the opposite of what his doctrine stipulates. The reason he does this is because he is dealing with his own internal struggle with the components of DIVINE MALEVOLENCE which are a major part of his doctrine.

[@jonathansteele1057]

@@dw6528 could you give examples of that language?

[@dw6528]

@@jonathansteele1057 DW: Sure. You will notice that Dr. Flowers will occasionally say - the Calvinist uses the same vocabulary that every one else uses - but he has a different dictionary. This practice is called INSIDER language. The practice entails taking words from the language - and creating ad-hoc meanings for those words - and HIDING the meaning from OUTSIDERS. So for example - Calvinists will use "Permission" language which is designed to mislead. Here is John Calvin on the subject -quote When [Augustine] uses the term Permission - the *meaning which he attaches to it* will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of god is the supreme and primary *CAUSE* of all things….(Institutes 1, 16, 8) So here we have the word "Permission" being used as a replacement word for *CAUSE* In Calvinism it works this way: 1) What Calvin's god CAUSES to come to pass - he permits 2) What Calvin's god does NOT CAUSE to come to pass - he does NOT permit. So the Calvinists use of "Permission" language is deceptive. The Calvinist will also use language designed to paint FALSE PICTURES of their doctrine. An infallible decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees Therefore ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS do not exist within creation for humans to choose. The Calvinist will use language designed to paint FALSE PICTURES of ALTERNATIVES which people are given choice in the matter of - which do not actually exist in their belief system.

[@primeobjective5469]

14:58 -- Correct. Reformed theolgy is false, no matter how much they boast that their systematic humbles them. While they sing their endless praises for their own divine election, Calvinism has God commanding the vast majority of mankind - He alone has fated to be burned forever - to "Repent" to a God who NEVER wanted them, & have "faith" & believe in a gospel that was NEVER intended to save them. Within their systematic, God commands - those He alone reprobated before they were born - to generate their own faith in God for salvation, but does NOT demand the same from His Elect. Oh no, God gives His Elect His gift of faith through their doctrine of Irresisitble Grace, yet, withholds it from the rest of mankind. Regardless, even if the rest of mankind generated their own faith in God, it would be futile because God never made propitiation for their sin (Limited Atonement), & if Christ has not been raised from the dead for them, their faith is worthless (1 Cor. 15:17). The God of TRUTH does not command the vast majority of mankind, to believe a LIE. In Calvinism, their version of God most certainly does, and then damns them forever according to His 'plan A', for the good pleasure of His will to glorify Himself.

[@stetsonscott8209]

​@@tgrogan6049yes. But I'm a universal reconciliationist, which is considered heresy by most. I haven't been given the grace to believe otherwise and I find that terrifying (and I'm terrified that I'm terrified because God hadn't given us a spirit of fear). I tried giving it lip service for decades, but then I'm just a liar. I can believe in hell, but jewish hell - which is corrective (by destroying who you are, if you are wicked). Basically, wickedness is damned at every point, as 8t is participation in the chaos void. God is being, being separated seems like destruction - but we are living in the bodies of old, dead, wicked men. So I think I can affirm that all the wicked are destroyed in hell forever, it just doesn't mean suffering of infinite quality and quantity. If the ignorant are condemned by the law of God written on thier heart, then it stands to reason that we should generally have some intuition about justice - and most people who really think about it at best have a very hard time seeing infinite conscious torment as justice - Given God knew the risks and chose them for us. It seems to me He wants us to trust Him now and learn now for the sake of our relationship with Him and others. Justice to me is having to live out the pain of your sins in others and having to learn to let go of your ego and learn to be somebody else who loves God, which means surrendering to Christ in any physical or spiritual dimension, because He is life itself - the fruit of the tree of life is to love God in the form of a relationship through His son.

[@Loves2HugItOut]

“While they sing their endless praises for their own divine election…” Exactly! 💀 I’ve never known exactly how to phrase that point.

[@eeman1335]

The atonement is defined as per the parable... _Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field._ -Matthew 13:44 Many attribute the man as the believer selling his life in exchange for Jesus. This is an incorrect interpretation. The previous parables have already established that the MAN here is the Creator Himself. Beginning verse 44 with _Again_ shows that this parable is a continuation on that topic (Matt 13:36-43) and the definitions have already been established. The _Man_ in the parable here in verse 44 is indeed Jesus who sells all He has by emptying Himself (Philippians 2:7) into the form of a man and buying or _dying_ on the cross to purchase the field (world) which contains both tares (unbelievers) and wheat (believers). So then, He is the Savior of all (1 Tim 4:10), even though at the judgment He will not keep all. However, as the parables continue concerning the Man and what He purchased is sorted through like this.... _Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth._ -Matthew 44:47-50. This is the conclusion of all the parables in Matthew chapter 36.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

Why can't both be true, that Jesus died for both the world and for the elect? Jesus died for the whole world yet only those that are elected are chosen out of the world. When I hear elect the elect of God I hear "I choose you out of all sinners bthe world."

[@paolovalenti779]

The bottom line is, the bible isn't for any private interpretation! The bible does teach us the proper way to interpret scripture. Using the principle that Christ spoke in parables, and without a parable He does not speak is the key! A parable is an earthly story that teaches us a spiritual truth concerning the Kingdom of God or His salvation program. So, According to what we read in the book of John, In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, & God was the word.... the word became flesh- Hence Jesus who is God in the flesh is the the Bible speaking to us in its entirety. Therefore the bible is like a 3 dimensional book where the scriptures convey 3 levels of truth. The 3rd dimension is purely spiritual and only if you are given eyes to see, God will reveal this to you. This spiritual realm is teaching us God's salvation plan or some aspect of the gospel. Therefore we treat the entire bible as one cohesive book, where the author is Jesus who is speaking to us. When the scriptures were recorded, God had to orchestrate specific historical accounts to teach us some deeper aspect or spiritual truth concerning the gospel. This is exactly what a parable is. In order to find spiritual truth we need to compare scripture with scripture, and our conclusion has to harmonize with everything the Bible teaches us. Anyone can isolate a few scriptures to create a conclusion that fits their narrative or denominational doctrines. BUT does this conclusion harmonize with all scriptures? Something to think about, why would God choose a people to return back to God? The bible tells us why... Psa 14:2 "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Psa 53:2, doubles up on this) Isa 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. :7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities." Anyway, we don't have free will to get ourselves saved because we as a fallen vessel do not seek after God, he is our enemy. Making decisions isn't free will. Actually the bible tells us in 2 places that we are selfwilled, meaning all our decision making is based on self, leaving God out of the picture. For this reason, our decisions are what makes us accountable to our sins and we can't blame God. So no, we are not robots! Plus when we make decisions, it's based on internal and external forces. But the final outcome is what God preordained. This takes all pride away from us because it is God who does all the work in saving those He chose. Thankfully He does because Satan owns the human race and God decided to take some back. Hence, Christ had to pay for all their sins to be pure in the sight of God. Christ dying for someone and then sending them to hell would be double jeopardy!!!! Question to the ADMIN, how does a baby or little child become saved if the bible doesn't teach an age of accountability?

[@bguptill]

The mistake you make is in assuming that “not seeking after God” means man doesn’t have the ability to make choices. Deuteronomy 30 doesn’t say “I’ve set before you seeking after me or seeking after self.” So the common Calvinistic strawman that man doesn’t seek after God is irrelevant to the actual choice set before us: life or death, blessing or cursing. It is not too difficult for us to choose. Deuteronomy 30:11-15 (NASB95) 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, Furthermore, God gave us an example of a totally depraved man who was dead making the choice between life & death. Genesis 20:2-3 (NASB95) 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married.” 7 “Now therefore, restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.” 8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore children. 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife. Further, Calvin failed to recognize the cause of the sin nature - our fear of death. John 8:34 (NASB95) Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. Hebrews 2:14-16 (NASB95) 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. The story of Abimelech demonstrates that, far from preventing someone from choosing life, our fear of death which causes our sin nature actually can motivate us to choose life. So it is certainly not too difficult for us to choose.

[@paolovalenti779]

@@bguptill God created us as inteligent beings, and through our selfwill we can make sound decisions too. With our sin nature it's never good enough and every sin needs to be purged. In these earthly examples you gave God is painting a picture for us. Let me first say, we have the chronolgy wrong, God has to first rebirth us spiritually, which gives us a will to obey any of God's commands. Therefore all the scriptures we read concerning making some decision or obeying God's command, is a picture of somene who is spiritually alive. As a fallen vessel we can still make godly decisions in life but for the most part it's for selfish reasons or fear that we will end up in hell. By me obeying God's commands is out of love and respect for God. Perhaps this is when we actually have free will, but even so we still desire our will to be God's will. thanks for your input but I'm not here to be right and I pray for wisdom and on what you have responded with. God bless!

[@paolovalenti779]

​ @bguptill also read romans 9:13 - 33, it's God getting inside our head with the topic we are discussing.

[@bguptill]

⁠@@paolovalenti779 if you look again at Abraham, Gal 3:8 says God preached the gospel to him and then credited him with righteousness for his faith. 15 years after he believed, God changed his name, symbolically indicating being born again. After that he was circumcised symbolically representing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (in dwelling is circumcision of the heart). Abraham was made righteous AFTER he believed. Righteousness = life. Abraham was never regenerated nor indwelled by the Holy Spirit, yet he believed. Further I just gave you an example of someone who chose life while they were dead in Abimelech. The role of faith in salvation is to qualify us as descendants of Abraham to whom God promised to regenerate & make righteous. You don’t need to be regenerated to qualify for human adoption. Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB95) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. Romans 4:16-18 (NASB95) 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR SEED BE.” Abraham’s descendants are whom the grace of God is given, for they were promised righteousness before they were born. So it is God’s promise which regenerated the descendants, not their faith. Their faith merely qualify them as descendants to whom the promise was made.

[@ricksaunders8074]

So the doctrines of Grace are what John Calvin didn't like the phrase Cslvinusm GOD knows We don't Not one person that believes in the doctrines of Grace They still witness As we are command So when the Bible use the phrase Chosen Elect Predestination means what So GOD just waits on you ? HE never says I thought I had that one GOD NEVER SAYS OOPS

[@Redeemed26]

Making an offer to someone in bad faith makes you a fraud. If God wasn't offering atonement to everyone He couldn't judge them for not accepting it as they were never given opportunity to have it in the first place.

[@JD10503]

That's easy. The reprobate have no offer. We may end up making offers to them because we don't know who they are. But God never intended them to be saved, so there is no offer for them.

[@Redeemed26]

@@JD10503 I Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.". John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.".

[@JD10503]

​@@Redeemed26So, you're a universalist then? All refers only to His elect. All of His elect.

[@gdot9046]

They get an offer and they are responsible for responding to that offer the offer is valid to all.

[@ddr5138]

@JD10503 What you're describing is not an "offer" at all since you have no choice but to accept, and there is absolutely no offer at all to those who were damned from and to all eternity -- unless you're saying that God is being sadistically devious. Choice can not be a component of the equation whatsoever. That's the fatal inconsistency of Calvinism. The logical endpoint is theistic fatalism.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

Appreciate that this video was much more irenic that most. But as a 5-point Calvinist myself, I can affirm wholeheartedly the universal extent of the atonement, but a limit to its application. I reject Owens’ argument regarding the injustice of God punishing sins for which Christ has atoned. Christ’s atonement has a primary function of assuaging God’s wrath toward the whole COSMOS. Christ has paid for the sins of that COSMOS, which includes the sins of men, but is also a statement of God’s displeasure towards this fallen world in general. Finally, there is an image bearer in the world by which God can be known, Christ, and so God is satisfied. Next, Christ having paid for all sins now “owns the debt” so to speak. He can forgive it or hold us to it. For example, if you owe the bank $10,000,000 and Bill Gates purchases that debt from the bank, it just means that you now owe Bill Gates. Bill Gates would either have to forgive you… or hold you to it. Christ has received authority to forgive or retain sins. He chooses how to apply the benefits is His atonement. He chooses to save all those who He and Hjs Father have chosen from before the foundation of the world.

[@glennluppold4233]

Brent if God is truly Love in the most self sacrificing all encompassing true sense of the word, why then would He NOT choose all? He is just and holy (God's nature); he makes provision for ALL and in love allows his fallen creatures to choose life. Not all do so, and they are justly left in their sin, condemned already. The Bible clearly teaches (in many passages) that Jesus died for the world, for ALL people. True love must have a choice, or it is not love.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@glennluppold4233 - God’s Omni’s don’t work like that. God’s omniscience doesn’t imply that He gives or desires to give all knowledge to us. It implies that He possesses all knowledge and He gives us what He chooses. We can have no knowledge without Him. God’s omnipotence doesn’t mean He gives or desires to give all power to us. It implies that He possesses all power and He gives to us what power He chooses. Or put another way, there is no knowledge or power in the world unless it comes FROM GOD. God’s omnipresence is similar. There is no “presence”, or “existence” in the world unless God gives it from Himself. Now, just apply those same principles to Omnibenevolence and Omnilovingness. Do those attributes of God mean God must give good things to you and I, or that He must love you and I, or do they simply imply that if we are to receive anything good or anything loving… it must come from God… since He and He alone is GOODNESS itself and LOVE itself and possesses in Himself all good and love, and is for us the fountain of all goodness and love? When you begin to understand what I am saying, you start to see that all is of grace. You begin to see God working in all that is good in the world.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@glennluppold4233 - I’m also interested in where you get this principal: “True love must have a choice, or it is not love.” Are you suggesting that the members of the Trinity must be able to NOT LOVE each other in order for them to love each other? What does that even mean?

[@JD10503]

As a 5-Point Calvinist myself, I reject any idea of universal atonement. God didn't waste a single drop of Jesus's blood on those He does not wish to save. The reprobate have no Savior and no salvation because they were not created for anything but destruction.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@JD10503 - Yea, that’s just silly, and unbiblical. Christ’s atones for the sins of the whole cosmos (1 John 2:2). Of course the atonement is universal. In the end, the whole world is made right. Of course not a single “drop of His blood” is wasted. It accomplishes the purpose God had for it, (a) it purchases the entire cosmos for Christ so that all power and authority might be given to Him, (b) it allows for Christ to forgive the of sins of all those He intends to save, and (c) it allows Christ to sit as judge over the servants He has bought (ie all men). The Scripture speak of men WHO CHRIST BOUGHT that will be destroyed: 2 Peter 2:1: But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying THE MASTER WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. Jesus has purchased all things by His blood. He judges what He owns. Be careful to divide the Scriptures right… lest you be one of those servants He judges. Remain humble in all things. Merry Christmas.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

6:44 No, it’s not true that every orthodox Christian limits the atonement in the application. I don’t. The atonement is 100% effective in God’s view. He accepted Christ’s sacrifice for all sin universally. Now, many of us will reject that grace by God and will take on our punishment for ourselves, outside of God’s mercy, but the atonement was 100% applied to all of our sins. Atonement is not limited at all.

[@treysmith5513]

The issue is that all this focus is on the "atonement" when it probably isn't even in your new testament unless you read the KJV, which it appears only once. And now we have a bunch of people trying to develop doctrines and theology around a word that maybe appears once. Calvinists will say that when Jesus died, he secured the salvation of the elect. Why the heck did he come back to life again? Study and ask the Bible, "What saves?.." Don't assume you know just go to scripture and find out, Romans 5 states it, and Romans 8/1 Corinthians 15 flesh it out. I'm not gonna give out the answer, but see if you can find out. I will say this, when Jesus died, nobody was yet saved, perhaps with exception to the crucified criminal who repented. An hour after he died, nobody was saved, 24 hours after he was crucified, nobody was saved... so what saves?

[@Yaas_ok123]

God saves and has done so through history by faith. That's why Abraham is father of faith. People before Jesus believed "forward" to Jesus (God accepts that as saving faith) and we believe "backward" to Him because He is revealed.

[@grizz4489]

You said " when Jesus died no one was saved . " That means that you are also saying that no one in the old testament was saved . So what would your explanation be of....1. ) Matt 8:11 ? 2.) What about at the transfiguration, was Moses and Elijah saved ? 3.) John 11: 25-27 was martha saved ?

[@grizz4489]

God saves, and it has always been through the conduit of faith in Him

[@benanderson4118]

"For by grace you have been saved, through faith." (Eph. 2:8). The word atonement is the "means of forgiveness." KJV also uses the word "propitiation" 3 times for the Greek hilasmos, although the meaning is "expiation" of sins, meaning the removal of sins. NIV uses "atone" 6 times in NT. Thus, salvation is accomplished by God's grace (Christ died for our sins on the cross, Rom. 5:6-8; 1 John 2:2) and man's faith in Jesus Christ upon hearing the gospel (Acts 16:31; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 1:13; 2 Tim. 1:12 etc). Apostle Paul calls this "reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18-20). For an example of salvation before Christ died: “Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”” (Luke 7:48-50) When Christ died, it was for all people, all time, all sins, whether OT or NT.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

Calvinists are not able to know if they are even elect, according to their belief. They are trying to be God by going against the whole counsel of His Word. They say we aren't even able to hear or see unless God regenerates us before they even come to Jesus, which takes the need for Jesus in salivation in my opinion. Accordkng to them we aren't able to hunble ourselves, yet we have the prodigal son. It's limited atonement yet Scripture says go out to the world. Only if God told His disciple to go to each elect person then they might have a leg to stand on.

[@davidpilcher3283]

You can argue all you want about the difference between Calvinists who believe in unlimited atonement versus those who believe in limited atonement but it is all meaningless semantics. If you believe only the elect as defined by Calvinism can be saved then you believe in limited atonement period. Saying you believe in unlimited atonement might make you feel better about yourself but it doesn't change the fact that you do actually believe in unlimited atonement. You cannot both believe in unlimited atonement and also be a Calvinist. The two are mutually exclusive.

[@davidpilcher3283]

Should read "doesn't change the fact that you do actually believe in limited atonement"

[@Loves2HugItOut]

⁠@@davidpilcher3283 “if you believe only the elect as defined by Calvinism can be saved…” everyone CAN be saved

[@Loves2HugItOut]

@@davidpilcher3283​​⁠​⁠​⁠no there was not a limited atonement. The atonement was for the whole world, so therefore anyone CAN be saved. Just an analogy it’s like saying with Old Testament times “EVERYONE is given a lamb for atonement, so will you by faith offer the lamb? If not the lamb will profit you nothing. Now, EVERYONE has Jesus for their atonement, so will you by faith put your trust in Him? If not you won’t be COVERED in the blood.” Is everyone COVERED in the blood? No, of course not, only believers. But does everyone have an atonement for their sins? Yes. The gospel is about telling people of this atonement so they will receive it and then be COVERED by it. He is the propitiation for our sins and NOT FOR OURS ONLY but also for the WHOLE WORLD!

[@Terrylb285]

God chose to plant the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden . God chose to allow the serpent in the Garden . God chose to let Adam choose for all of humanity.God chose to allow Satan to be the God of this world. God chose Noah and passed over the rest of humanity. God chose Abram and passed over the rest of humanity. God chose Isaac over Ishmael .God chose Jacob over Esau . God chose the nation of Israel and left the other nations to themselves. God chose to spare only those who had the blood of the lamb on the doors in Egypt. Jesus chose 12 disciples he could have easily chose more , He chose not to heal some people, Chose deliberately to speak in parables so not to be understood.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

As good as this guest (and Leighton) are on so many issues, we have to stop misunderstanding “the elect.” It’s vital to understand that everyone is elect. That’s Jesus’ and Paul’s whole point. They’re correcting the errant and pervasive Jewish theology that taught only SOME people were elect, themselves. Jesus and Paul say NO! all people are elect, Jew and Gentile. Everyone. No one is not elect. See Matt 22, Rom 5:18, 10:11-13, 11:32 and Ephesians 2:11-21, 3:4-6

[@Redeemed26]

I John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.".

[@grizz4489]

In the video, one benefit of the atonement was not very clearly addressed. It is this.... Jesus paid for all the sins of all of mankind of all time. So what does this accomplish ? Jesus sacrifice paid for all sins of all men thus removing sin as a barrier between God and man. Every person therefore has access to God. See Cornelius. Every person is savable because the barrier of sin has been removed. Jesus paid for all the sins of all men SO THAT God now can freely give the gift of eternal life to whoever BELIEVES in Jesus for it !! Those who believe in Jesus receive eternal life, forgiveness of sins and are brought into fellowship with the Lord. God so loved the world THAT He gave His only begotten Son SO THAT whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

[@sheilasmith7779]

grizz: That is exactly how I understand it. He died for the sins of the world, not the sinners. Only when we believe does salvation happen for us.

[@michaelgrijak8623]

The gospel is not an offer of salvation to everyone. Rather, the biblical gospel of the grace of God is the DECLARATION of the finished work of Christ at Calvary for His people and His righteousness imputed to His elect so that they will stand before God the Father and be glorified.

[@buzzbbird]

W R O N G ! The elect are the Blood Jews, saved and unsaved Saved Non-Jews remain Non-Jews Saved Jews remain Jews Elect, as a noun is never, in the Bible, pertains to any non-Jew. The atonement is applied at the cross, the nealing of the breech between Man and God, makes forgiveness and faith meet in salvation.

[@John-bibleinsights]

"Elect, as a noun is never, in the Bible, pertains to any non-Jew"???? Hmm... "Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect..." (2 Timothy 2:10 ESV) - writes the apostle to the Gentiles.

[@ZachFish-]

4:05 So universalist vs everyone else. Jesus atones for all who have faith. The question is actually ~ Can anybody have faith (if everyone is able but not everyone comes to have faith then Jesus’s atonement is still for all who come to faith). He bore all sins of His people (Those with faith) just as the old sacrifices. If you play the sin that’s payed for game, application has to be for everybody since their sins are forgiven. 15:00 How is this a logical conclusion? 15:50 How would that mind frame be the logical conclusion either?!

[@shredhed572]

"He bore the sins of His people." He bore the >sin< of the World = all people. Not "sins" Look up the word pecuniary. Our debt wasn't pecuniary

[@ZachFish-]

@@shredhed572 How would that not be universalism. We are condemned because we are unrighteous, no?

[@flyfishing739]

OMG Armenians are the one with the dilemma of Universalism which is what literally every single consistent Armenian is HAHAHAHA!!!

[@ddascola01]

As I have experienced, it seems to me that Calvinists have an excuse for this dilemma. To them, it's not a dilemma because, to them, God hates those He reprobated and rejected b4 they were born. So to offer these non-elect people something that's not available to them, a Calvinist would come back and say, "it's not really an offer that's being made to the non-elect, and who are you, oh man, to question God?" or "Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated"; or that the Calvinist "doesn't claim to understand why God did it this way, but it's just the way that it is." Seemingly to the 5 point Calvinist, God is not really offering the non-elect anything because it's going to go through one ear and out the other unless you're elect. So I don't really see that as a good argument with staunch Calvinists who adhere to the L in TULIP. Thoughts?

[@JohnK557]

If you tell an atheist the truth that God obviously exists because they are witnessing creation therefore there must be a creator is that a bad argument just because they reject the truth?

[@fernandosviewpoint]

I agree that in the matter of determination, election, limited atonement, the only way to uphold to such doctrine is by sacrificing reason and you can't convince a person that has put a stop to thinking, yet through a discussion in this topic there my be a benefit to a third person who is honestly concern for the truth.

[@ddascola01]

​@JohnK557 I apologize, maybe my word choice was not good there. I probably would have been better to say it's an "ineffective or unconvincing" argument, and this for the reasons listed. Because I certainly understand and agree w/ what you're saying, but what I'm looking for when I asked for "thoughts", is not necessarily an analysis of my statement, but a potential good response to the hypothetical (and also, real life example) statements that I know many "Limited Atonement" Calvinists will give when presenting Professor Flowers and Dr Allen's argument, in the manner it was discussed here in the video. I think the Calvinist brain is wired so that they make it all about "God's sovereign, deterministic power" and nothing about our involvement. Because they would or could just say that it's a human argument and it's our human sympathy that thinks it's God who's being disingenuous when the offer of salvation through faith in Christ is made to a people who he decreed were hardened from birth and cannot receive the offer. They genuinely think the non-elect are hated, they genuinely think that "all people" means all the elect, or if it is a reference supposedly to everyone who populates the Earth, then it's with the understanding that God has decreed good and bad soil whereby some will receive it and some will not. It's almost as if the non-elect are invisible to God, despite the fact that they actually exist, and the appeal that is made to all men via the messengers that God has chosen to deliver the gospel through, will only land, and produce fruit, upon the soil that God has fore-ordained to receive it with gladness, and this according to Whom He has deterministically chosen from before the foundation of the world. Then they could just simply say the other soil, that is the soil that produces no fruit, or where the word gets choked out, Etc, these were also God's deterministic choices because God has determined that in order for His elect to receive His irresistible Grace, in a world where the wheat and tares have sovereignly been decreed by God to grow together, you basically have to throw a handful of seed all over the place. But it's only in the spots that God has fore-ordained it to grow, that it will grow. So a calvinist would or could potentially say, "the seed of the word of God and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is never ineffective in accomplishing the purposes that it was designed to accomplish, when it lands upon the ground that God's sovereignly decreed the seed will work in." Then they would or could argue that, "God has also decreed that his non-elect people will be the ground where the seed cannot grow, since the seed was never intended for that hardened bad soil". So it seems to me as this circular reasoning, and sometimes I just have to walk away because I get tired of beating my head against the wall with these people.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

10:28 “limitarians” 😂😂😂😂😂

[@harrisarms2151]

Don’t listen to these conclusions of particular redemption (limited atonement). Even the Hypothetical Universalists who helped Allen with his research reject Allen’s conclusions and assertions.

[@jjphank]

Arminianism is king;; God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@BereanFellowship]

You have alot to say about this matter, please show me the errors of my scripture rendering concerning this topic on my channel. Nobody has offered any objective criticism yet.

[@scottamering6414]

I truly do not understand the desire to defend man (and his fair shake…so to speak) and to impugn God for a proclamation of the truth that man cannot believe on his own. John 1:13 says clearly “not of the will of the flesh or of man, but of God”. Jesus proclaimed the truth and said over and over “he that hath ears to hear, let him hear” in the gospel accounts. The book of Revelation reveals the same in which Christ again stated “he that hath an ear to hear”. How about the account in Revelation 14:6-13 in which the angel of the Lord proclaims the gospel to all on the earth, even the unrepentant. Is God not to be glorified in the proclamation of the truth!? The idea that man wants to be saved is not biblical. And the gospel is about Christ and not about man!!

[@simonbutcher8534]

The whole concept of who has and who hasn’t had their sins atoned by the blood of Jesus is always going to be hard to understand if you consistently only view things from man’s perspective. Non Calvinists seem unable to try and see both from a heavenly and an earthly viewpoint. If Christ’s sacrifice has atoned for every sin, then whether or not you apply it, the penalty has been paid and it would be unjust to exact more punishment for the same sin. And the Bible is clear that God is Just in all His works. Your biggest problem as a non Calvinist will always be - what, when all is said and done, is the difference between you and your unsaved neighbour? Why are you saved and he/she isn’t? Your answer can only give credit to YOU for choosing wisely and this takes some of the credit away from its true and rightful owner - GOD.

[@SSNBN777]

The guest claims to not be a Calvinist, but then he said at 5:55 one must “repent of their sins”, along with having faith in Christ, as the requirement for salvation. This is no different than Roman Catholicism's works salvation, and Calvinism’s Lordship Salvation. I'm surprised Leighton didn't call him out on this Gospel error.