Calvinists WRONGLY Presuppose THIS In JOHN 6 w/

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Soteriology 101 w/ Dr. Leighton Flowers

2 ай бұрын

Dr. Leighton Flowers joins ‪@AKRichardson‬for a discussion around John 6 and the recent debate with Dr. James White.
Calvinists must presuppose Unconditional Election and read it into John 6 in order to come away with a Calvinistic interpretation.
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• A Discussion on John 6...
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Пікірлер: 226

@TwoKrows 2 ай бұрын

The sooner we recognize Calvinism as a post-reformation heresy that drives people away from accepting the messiah and call it out as such the better off the faith will be.

@TwoKrows 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5String it doesn’t. Christ was not a Calvinist. Paul was not a Calvinist. The thief in the cross was not a Calvinist. To Israel belongs the election. Calvinists are thieves trying to steal what doesn’t belong to them theologically. At most the earliest you see Calvinist ideas is Augustus and he did not get it from the bible. He got it from his former Manichaeism. The only way to get this Reformation tradition (given to us from Calvin the infallible pope) is to force it onto the text. Hence - the worst of all heresies.

@andrettanylund830 2 ай бұрын

Amen

@andrettanylund830 2 ай бұрын

True

@Solideogloria00 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5StringCalvinism doesn’t come from Scripture but from men’s speculation over a thousand years later

@RobertGoldston 2 ай бұрын

Calvin born July 10, 1509

@AlexanderosD 2 ай бұрын

It's sort of comical to imagine; God comes along and says, "I've chosen that all who humble themselves and believe in my Son, I will be faithful and grant forgiveness and eternal life!" Calvinism shows up and steps in front of God saying, "Oh! Looks like only some of you guys are selected for eternal life! Who knows why God has chosen only specific people. There's no way of knowing His sovereign will, totally unconditional arbitrary selection, it's a mystery! You don't want to question God's sovereign will do you!? Alright....you folks come on in...not you Frank!"

@graftme3168 2 ай бұрын

That's the same mindset the Pharisees had. "We are the chosen and everyone else is already damned." Jesus also spoke against them for preventing others from entering the kingdom who DESIRED to enter! If you study the Pharisees, you will see that Calvinists are modern day Pharisees. Same religious, non relationship mindset. Lots of zeal, no heart.

@jdominguez777 Ай бұрын

Would this also go along with Roman’s 9 where it says He “endured”. like how would God endure something He already decided on?

@SheilaODrane 2 ай бұрын

Once I declare, "pigs can fly," I can then name all the things flying pigs can and can't do. White's primary assumptions are wrong that Pigs can fly.....therefore everything built on the assumption will be wrong. Calvinists, search scripture confirming the TULIP assumption. Start with total depravity. If true, Abel could not have made his righteous decision without first receiving an intervention by God. There is no scripture declaring God did anything to cause Abel's decsion....or the actions of Abraham, Noah, Moses or Job....or others.

@lindajohnson4204 2 ай бұрын

Not only did it never say thar Abel got a special intervention by God, but the intervention that is shown, God speaking to Cain (who can hear Him, though He us dead in sin btw), God says (through a question) that Cain can still do the right thing, repent and believe, showing it through bringing an offering that reflects the fall and the coming Messiah, and he will be accepted. And see, Cain and Abel had the same parentage (despite the false teaching out of Babylon, that Cain was the spawn of Satan). The Bible teaches that both Cain and Abel were born of the same parents, who fell in the garden. Cain was no more fallen than Abel.

@SheilaODrane 2 ай бұрын

@@lindajohnson4204 Exactly. Cain and Abel were no more "fallen," than their parents....and Adam and Eve were created by God to choose through their free will what they would do. The nature of humans has never changed. We are Adam and Eve, living lives absent the benefits of Eden, and with consequences placed on us by God....i.e., increase in birth pain, etc. Calvinists, READ Gen 3 carefully.

@MineStrongth 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5String None of that teaches total depravity.

@andrettanylund830 2 ай бұрын

Yay

@SheilaODrane 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5String True, sin entered the world, as did the conscience of man to be righteous....same for the choices of Adam and Eve. We are them, minus the benefits of Eden and plus the curses mentioned in Gen 3....death being one of those curses.

@KISStheSON... 2 ай бұрын

It's just so frustrating anymore🤦‍♀ The Calvinists have been programmed by their teachers to read ALL people (past present and future) into John 6 when it ONLY refers to the children of the house of Isreal at THAT TIME who had already been listening and learning of the Father by their forefathers who didn't walk away from God. THEY were GIVEN (past tense) to the Son knowing that they would come to Him because the Father and the Son have the same voice. The Father gave the Son the children of Israel who were already following the Father. The other children who were spoken of in John 5 were not learning from the Father, they were taught about false gods by the forefather who walked away from the Father unto idols. They were taught the law WITHOUT the prophets which means they would not hear God when Jesus spoke because the prophets spoke of the Son. It's so simple that it's painful to listen to ignorance that comes out of the programmed Calvinist's mouths. The Calvinist is a mirror image of the people spoken of in John 6 which is painfully sad and frustrating. It's simple. If you set your mind on learning only the law without the prophets you will become unable to hear God's voice even if He is standing in your face as it was in those days. However, if you were taught the law AND the prophets you would have heard God's voice coming out of Jesus and you would have naturally followed Him and freely swallowed every word He said. The irony is pretty CLEARLY written in John 6:45 because it literally says, "John 6:45 “It is written in THE PROPHETS, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” Get it? They didn't LEARN what was written in the prophets because had they they would have KNOWN. Ugh. They only SWALLOWED the law which is why Jesus said to them, "And ye have not his word abiding IN YOU: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not." Because they didn't SWALLOW the words of the prophets. John 5 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? 💌💡

@d.carpenter7519 2 ай бұрын

And it wasn't even the Law. They added their traditions and writings (Mishna/"oral law") and followed that above Moses.

@KISStheSON... 2 ай бұрын

@@d.carpenter7519 Amen...they followed their traditions according to the law.

@d.carpenter7519 2 ай бұрын

@KISStheSON... Jesus said if they believed Moses, they would believe Him. The scribes and Pharisees didn't follow the Law. Jesus said they left off the weightier matters of it. They ADDED their traditions TO the Law. Mark 7 shows this. They taught for doctrines the commandments of men not the Law of God. Obedience to the actual Law was always supposed to be done in faith, but the Pharisees made it all religious works of flesh in their traditions.

@fnjesusfreak 2 ай бұрын

@@d.carpenter7519 Their traditions, as Jesus said, were an end-run around the law. Like trying to maliciously comply with God (that doesn't work).

@KISStheSON... 2 ай бұрын

@@d.carpenter7519 I don't disagree...Paul explained it perfectly here: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. and here: Romans 10 1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

@EulersIdentityCrisis 2 ай бұрын

@8:40 this point was massively underappreciated after the debate. This is White admitting he has to presuppose a non sequitur to even get his system off the ground.

@primeobjective5469 2 ай бұрын

Calvinism steals the hope of some believers, replaced by a suffocating sense of predestination. The narrow path they once envisioned with excitement stretches before them, a bleak and desolate road.

@scienceandbibleresearch 2 ай бұрын

It’s not suffocating when you realize that you’re dead in sin and wouldn’t choose God unless he first predestined you to eternal life in Christ.

@johndisalvo6283 2 ай бұрын

@@scienceandbibleresearch. Get off your high horse Pharisee! Christ died for ALL and ANYONE CAN BE SAVED! You’re NOT SPECIAL!

@andrettanylund830 2 ай бұрын

Depraved 🤣🥺🤔 we're made in the image of God. He gave us a brain

@scienceandbibleresearch 2 ай бұрын

@@andrettanylund830 : Yes, and we use it to invent ways to flee and hide from him.

@malvokaquila6768 2 ай бұрын

So true, Calvinism is so false anyone who merely reads their bible KNOWS that it is false. All it takes is sixth grade reading comprehension.

@d.carpenter7519 2 ай бұрын

If James White is one of the best debaters on the calvinist side, then do the lesser debaters also make tons of bad faith arguments?

@johndoe-ln4oi 2 ай бұрын

James White: "I learned the word 'exegesis' and I use it often when I speak. Therefore 'intellectual argument'".

@scottibreiding 2 ай бұрын

greek greek greek, exegesis, greek, aorist tense, greek, accuse opponent of isogesis, exegesis, greek, i win.

@johndoe-ln4oi 2 ай бұрын

@@scottibreiding lol-true.

@johnknight3529 2 ай бұрын

That literally happened to me once, when I ventured into the comment thread of a Calvinist video, and said something like; "That's not the way I read the text being discussed here ...", and someone quickly respond with something like - "Who cares how you read the text, what's important is How God meant the text to be read". I tell ya, this Calvinism stuff positively invites people to assume that what they make of Scripture (or anything else) is placed in their mind by God Himself, because there is no alternative on Calvinist doctrine . . . since everything that pops into anyone's mind is placed there by God . . (That TULIP jive is a great recipe for both narcissism, and callousness toward others, it seems to me ; )

@trebmaster 2 ай бұрын

I'm reminded of a Seinfeld episode where Costanza gets a job from lying on his resume and fakes his way through the "Penske file" case and acts like he's working hard on it just by acting all flustered and frustrated, so people just assume he really is legitimate about what he's involved in. Same thing goes with James White in this debate. He acts all flustered and cries foul, but where is the substance? This debate is his Penske file.

@tamaraholloway9634 2 ай бұрын

It seems like Calvinism treats grace and faith as a magical substance that God bestows on the elect. Or like God magically charms them so that as a reprobate can do no other but choose against God, they can do no other but choose God. If a woman hated and rejected a man, and he gave her a substance without her consent that she couldn't resist that would make her fall in love with them, what would we think of that? Oh but let's special plead because it's God, so it's good. The fact that the Earth still abides, and Man still exists, and the lost still have time to hear and believe the Gospel and be saved IS ALL GRACE. Grace isn't defined by Calvinistic reformed systematic, but by the Word.

@fnjesusfreak 2 ай бұрын

Five-point Calvinism seems to suggest that mankind are merely marionettes in the hands of a cosmic puppeteer, who, according to their reading of Rm 9, makes some people for no other reason than for his own self-aggrandizement when he casts them into Gehenna laughing like a maniac!

@fnjesusfreak 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5String If we are mere marionettes, everything is actually being done directly by God himself - which means humans don't have any agency or responsibility, and haven't done anything that would require something so drastic as Jesus' sacrifice. It also means that Adam and Eve couldn't have been deceived, and that God caused Eve to eat the apple!

@malvokaquila6768 Ай бұрын

Calvinists also think that God is an incompetent creator and communicator. They teach that God decreed all sin and evil along with everything else, and when we sinned we lost the capacity to respond to God's offer of reconciliation. Of course this nonsense is nowhere in the text. That's why they say that you need their MAGIC interpretations that show the afore mentioned nonsense. If you don't listen to them and read your bible you know that it is directly contradicted by what scripture says.

@AndrewKeifer 2 ай бұрын

Isn't it interesting that the men are asking Jesus about "works of God" and Jesus responds with just "work of God?" To my mind, they're asking about following rules and Jesus is telling them only to believe.

@carld2796 2 ай бұрын

Does the Father draw? Yes, How then does he do it? We really don't have to guess. Six chapters later, Jesus himself makes it abundantly clear: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (Jn. 12:32). He draws "all people" (none excluded, no favorites, just "all")through the work and message of the cross. His work is to produce faith in our hearts by someone preaching the gospel in the power of the Spirit (oh blessed feet!), the Spirit of truth bearing witness to it in our hearts, and if he so chooses, by signs and wonders (even cessationists believe in the possibility of a sign and wonder from time to time). "Faith cometh by hearing (No passive regeneration mentioned anywhere) and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:14-17).

@SheepDog1974 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5StringWe get it. You're a Free Will denier... God draws those only whom will hear, listen, turn, repent and follow Him... In John 6 Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience making them understand that if they had followed Moses and listened (John 5) that they would hear His voice and follow Jesus. "My sheep know my voice and they follow me"

@SheepDog1974 2 ай бұрын

@h2s142 the innate God wired desire to ask this question. ;-)

@graftme3168 2 ай бұрын

Also, that is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. To "convince the WORLD of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement." Jesus' death and resurrection changed everything.

@graftme3168 2 ай бұрын

@@SheepDog1974You're partly right. The condition that the Gospel puts on salvation is believing. You have added to that. That's why the road is narrow. You can't put anything else on it except Jesus! He is the way (road). And, He is the gate as well. The way to salvation is faith in Jesus. The entering into salvation is through the gate, which, again, is Jesus! Adding to the Gospel doesn't save anyone. If your foundation is wrong, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter what else you believe or don't believe. And, it don't matter what you do or don't do. NOBODY builds their house before laying the SURE foundation. It won't stand! Get the Gospel right, or you got nothing. Most people create a false gospel because they use doctrine to determine the interpretation of the Gospel. It's supposed to be the other way around. You cannot properly divide the Word of God without the proper foundation. The Gospel is the ONLY foundation you can build on. Every "house" that isn't built on the Gospel is built on sinking sand. It will never stand to the end. It must be built on the Rock (Jesus), which is the SURE foundation, and the house will NEVER fall. You can't mix Jesus with other "materials." It must be the SOLID Rock!

@SheepDog1974 2 ай бұрын

@@graftme3168 I am in firm agreement with all you wrote. What did I say that was added to the gospel?

@reg7916 2 ай бұрын

Amen, it's to trust in what He did, nothing we can do🌻

@emilesturt3377 2 ай бұрын

Augustinian-Calvinists would do well to remember that even Augustine (though, in the Orthodox view, a little muddled with a faulty deterministic thinking in later life) held to more possible "room" in conversion for a free (from a causally determined) response from man, and definitely in his view of "cooperative grace" in the life of sanctification, was far more in keeping with the universal Patristic consensus. It is so true that it is almost like - for some people - being dragged into the kingdom, or very strongly influenced; but conversion is very different for very many people in the complexity of life. These debates are not really about who "believes in Scripture" or not, it's about the interpretation and the pre-suppositions we ALL bring to the text. In the Orthodox view, Adam - by general "natural" revelation, conscience, and by the assistance of Grace Himself - maintained the ability to hear God post fall; and we also - in Adam - maintain that ability to respond, even pre-regeneration, which is why the Apostle says that we "have no excuse" and we "suppress the truth in our wickedness". By grace, through the proclamation of the gospel, our foolish, ignorant and darkened hearts are illumined, and we respond, and are included in Him, and now relationally "alive" in Him, we see Jesus as the "icon", the "Image of the invisible God"... And the admonishment to us continues to be the ability to respond, take action and cooperate... "Wake up sleeper! Rise from the dead! And Christ will shine on you!" What was vague, "an unknown god", comes into focus. The Reformed Calvinist (minority) view of total inability (which clearly breaks with the ancient, Apostolic, Patristic consensus) is the only "apparent" problem with the verses Calvinist adherents are keen on quoting in John 6 against the non Calvinist stance... The inevitable conclusion of this interpretive system is that you have to say that a large part of humanity, as the non elect as Calvinism sees election, were created with absolutely no chance of final salvation because man does not have any semblance of free will to be able to cooperate (or not) with God. The idea that people can justly be punished forever for a state of sinfull life that they - could not in any way, shape or form - escape (without being born again through zero cooperation of their will via effectual and irresistible Grace in the Reformed view), makes zero sense. Punishment is to do with the outworking of something that a creature could (by Grace) have avoided. Similarly, reward (or degrees of it) is linked to the ability of man to cooperate with the Gift of Life (Who Is the Gospel) "Salvation is of the Lord" "For the Lord has become our Salvation"

@eddiebrock720 2 ай бұрын

@soteriology101 from Eph 2:8 and as someone who has held the calvinist position last 20 years, I have always looked at faith and salvation as the “gift”. But now I am not so sure. I see where eternal life/salvation is the free gift of God, but can not identify where “faith” is a free gift of God. Thanks!

@gospelfurtheringfellowship7820 2 ай бұрын

Is it possible as one who supports the program monthly (under a personal account) to have a question of mine addressed like those who have theirs addressed when they spontaneously give a super chat? I am a provisionist after the same manner Bro. Flowers explains it. From that perspective, can you pinpoint WHEN the Father gives those who have been listening and learning from Him to His son scripturally?

@robertbobby3325 2 ай бұрын

I choose for God's grace to be irresistible to me. Won't you choose your chosen place?😊

@emilesturt3377 2 ай бұрын

That which God wills to determine... No man can resist. That which God wills to remain indeterminate... We can resist. The Divine will, desire and act of creation, and of sustaining the universe, and of becoming incarnate in order to assume our Universal Human Nature and saving it... (and potentially all persons)... No man had a part in. The Divine will and desire that all might be saved - through the activity of the Spirit in the Church in the world - and the response to Divine Grace and the appropriation of that saved Human Nature by individual persons... We very much have a part in. To you Calvinist guys, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him, comes to me", and, "All that the Father gives me will come to me" simply consistently must be speaking of the predetermined elect individuals (the sheep)... to us guys, it's obviously speaking of those who became sheep in this life (which can be anyone... "WHOEVER" / "ALL") It is so important to keep the distinction between Nature and Person. We were not individually - as unique "hypostasis" - "in Adam" - we simply partake of his nature. This is also why we're not born guilty of his sin (though affected by its effects). And this is why, we as unique persons, may partake of Christ's Risen Human Nature, and so appropriate that "once for all" sacrifice and provision. The Father and the Son are always "bigging each other up" in the Scriptures: The Father is giving "to the Son"... and the Son is giving "to the Father" ... all within the Spirit. We are drawn by, and into, the Holy Trinity. For the Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him, may have eternal life. For the Father's will is that I should lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. This "willing" is, in context, a desiring, and not referring to a Monergistically, irrisistablly "determining" causation without any cooperation of creaturely autonomous agency... for apostasy is also a clear classical Scriptural and traditional teaching of the Church.

@duncanwashburn 2 ай бұрын

Here's one person's opinion: When we are not "in Christ" we are in the state mentioned in Eph 2:1-4. When we receive God's free gift as alluded to in John 1:12, offered because of God's grace, received because God's gifted all the ability to choose by faith (or reject by faith in something else), which is salvation, we become "in Christ". All those "in Christ" are elected and predestined; all those that reject the free gift of receiving Christ, remain "outside of Christ" and unsaved. ALL glory belongs to and goes to God Who is the Giver of ALL good gifts (James 1:17)

@cecilspurlockjr.9421 2 ай бұрын

John 6 is simply CHRIST telling people that they can't have THE FATHER without THE SON and can't have THE SON without THE FATHER. It has nothing to do with anyone being predestined to salvation or the lake of fire for eternity . Calvinists prove their foolish ignorance as they read their satanic anti gospel presups into these precious beautiful texts where our SAVIOR CHRIST JESUS is telling those there and us now WHO HE IS as THE SON OF GOD and GOD HIMSELF..

@unitedstates3068 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5String so you are saying only females are elect? Quote: "He said what he meant" >> "when he said "no man" it immediately excluded some people by definition it is not everyone" context doesn't matter in calvinism - just word hopscotch

@unitedstates3068 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5String "He said what he meant, you don't come on your own, it is invitation only" >> Matthew 22:1-14 those originally invited didn't come.... whoopsy >> Revelation 22:17 what are the conditions? context kills calvinism - everytime

@unitedstates3068 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5String just mirroring your selective understanding.. ok so you said "I said "Jesus said No man" which means it is not all men." - so all women and just some men... * I never said what Jesus said is satanic - just you misunderstand the context and meaning though outlined in the video. * "It is evident you don't even know what the gospel"....really? simple --- > John 6:29

@graftme3168 2 ай бұрын

Also, if they would read to the end of the chapter, Jesus says the very reason that He said that nobody can come to Him unless the Father calls him. He said it was because He knew who did not believe. That is why Judas was never saved. He never believed Jesus was who He said He was. Judas didn't LOSE salvation. He never believed! It's pretty clear at the end of the chapter. (I think it's verses 64 & 65.)

@graftme3168 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5StringYou have conveniently left out verses 64 & 65. Jesus specifically says that God draws believers to Jesus. He says the very reason that God doesn't draw someone to Jesus is because they do not believe. That is why Judas wasn't saved. He didn't believe. It is clear.

@user-le2nn8rs1y 2 ай бұрын

Renard, Thank you for your reply. You have said so much here , however I will have to take 1 comment at a time if this is OK. First, let's reread all of Romans 6. I believe as we read the whole chapter it explains when we are baptized into Jesus we are baptized into His death. This is where we died with Christ. Here I'll put the verses down here . 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Here I believe is a clear picture of the operational effects of our new birth when we put our faith in Christ. So many ask the question....does grace mean you can do anything you want? Paul in Roman's 6 says NO...AND HERE'S WHY. I believe Romans 6:6 clearly says that true salvation is being crucified with Christ. Our old Adam's history actually ended and now our NEW MAN, the New Creature actually begins. If one digs deeper in scripture, everything about Adam 1 is sin. When we put our faith in Jesus Christ, God is not remaking our old Adam. He is crucifying it. Just as Galatians 2:20-21 says. So now as you go further and see what Paul dealt with in Galatia after the Judiazer Christians interfered, Paul said he would stay with them UNTIL CHRIST WAS FORMED IN THEM AGAIN. So it appears the work of the Holy Spirit is forming Christ in you...the hope of Glory, that was the Mystery now revealed, Colossians 1:24-27. We are a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST. Paul also reiterates in Philippians 3....that I may KNOW HIM, and the power of His Resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death....... You see, Calvinists think they were predestined to salvation. WRONG. The CHURCH, this Mystery kept secret, but now revealed after Jesus resurrection , is that WE, HIS BODY, THE CHURCH was predestined to be conformed to His Image, that can only happen through the cross. This Calvin completely missed. Why, because Calvin never taught or understood our identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life. The power of His Resurrection Paul is talking about is that power of rising up with Christ to newness of life. This newness of life is our new birth. Being born from above only comes THROUGH CHRIST. And our water baptism is all pointing to our spiritual baptism. When I was baptized , my pastor said: buried with Him in baptism unto death, and as he raised me out of the water said , and raised up together with Him a New Creature. Those words came right our of heaven itself and took me over 40 years to fully grasp the depth of its truth. I hope I have made my comment clearer to grasp. If not, please ask or question that which you either may have misunderstood, or what I may not have clearly stated. The last think I want is a misunderstanding about our new birth. God bless I just want to add....salvation is instant. Our understanding of it and our growing up into the fullness and stature of Christ is a daily growth. We start as baby's who know our sins are forgiven, then mature to young men who have overcome the evil one....re spiritual warfare, to Father's, as Paul referred to himself, those who can bring others along to maturity through His Word.

@user-le2nn8rs1y 2 ай бұрын

Here's one of many things I get out of John 6. It isn't that they believe something....but "what" they believe about Jesus. I think this chapter makes clear that WHAT we believe is vital. When those who were followers walked away saying what Jesus said was "too hard" ..must be explored as well. Calvinists might be like those who walked away, seeing today many who say they are saved walk away from what is hard. To eat my flesh and drink my blood has a very deep meaning re I AM CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST. It's not the Catholic understanding either. It's to so identify with Jesus in death and out of that comes our resurrection life. These are those whom Christ will resurrect in the first resurrection. Against such the second death has no power. WHY? Because when we die with Christ NOW Romans 6, we have in a sense spent that 2nd death now and are given NEW LIFE NOW. Those who omit Romans 6 as Calvinism does, may actually be facing that second death later.... Calvin like all calvinist teachers avoid totally our identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life. Our resurrection life Now aka being BORN from Above comes as a result of our first being baptized into His death. Calvinists skip this. They go directly to Ephesians 2 believing God waved a magic wand and voila....you are instantly raised up together with Him....however Romans 6 clearly show the order of our being raised up together with Him. Resurrection life comes out of death. Our resurrection life comes out of our death with Christ., not our death at the fall. This is just one of many in John 6 that expose calvinism along with many false doctrines. They simply preach ANOTHER GOSPEL.

@tomthomasiii1169 2 ай бұрын

NKJV is a junk translation

@MyRoBeRtBaKeR 2 ай бұрын

It's a predestined outcome, yet the destination is the last day. Well, what about in between? I wonder if they believe you can go to an outside source to witness to your claim because that's the only way you can come to an effectual calling. I believe unless you can use God as your witness, IE His Word, then it is eisegesis, or is that not what that means, lol

@johnknight3529 2 ай бұрын

It amazes me that people act like it's some sort of deep thought that in order to believe in the Son, you have to believe in the Father. (In logic lingo, it's a given ; )

@exnihilo7806 2 ай бұрын

11For who among people knows the thoughts of a person except the spirit of the person that is in him? So also the thoughts of God no one knows, except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God. 13We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, [i]combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. The bottom line with Calvinism is that it was an intellectual endeavor to understand soteriology. With all things in scripture we need to be humbly inquiring of the holy Spirit. It's not Sola scriptura. It's scripture as understood by the holy Spirit. The holy Spirit should be in the lead and the intellect should be following behind. But they have it in reverse. And I've noticed that a lot of the people who are drawn to Calvinism are prone to being intellectually driven and adverse to the spiritual

@SSNBN777 2 ай бұрын

Calvinists were “convinced” by the words of Calvin into believing the way of salvation. Yet Calvinists claim men can't be “convicted” by the words of Christ into believing He's the way to salvation. John 6:63-68 GNT What gives life is God's Spirit; human power is of no use at all. *_The words I have spoken to you bring God's life-giving Spirit._* [64] *_Yet some of you do not believe."_* … [65] And he added, *_"This is the very reason I told you that no people can come to me unless the Father makes it possible for them to do so."_* [66] *_Because of this, many of Jesus' followers turned back_* … [67] So he asked the twelve disciples, *_"And you-would you also like to leave?"_* [68] Simon Peter answered him, *_"Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life._*

@Anteater23 2 ай бұрын

3:30 but in Calvinist view you don’t know which unbelievers are part of the elect, so I don’t get your point.

@mikelyons2831 2 ай бұрын

Those who believe/receive/trust in Jesus become the Chosen, Elect, Believers, Saints... this is not Rocket science... unless you have been incoctrinated into the extra biblical teachings of Calvinism.

@bobthrasher8226 2 ай бұрын

WE, as mere people, don't know who is elect, but God/Jesus would know who is elect or not and this is God speaking. So if God says the bread of life is given to YOU (speaking to the crowd - who are following primarily for the wrong reasons) then does He mean ALL or not? If He didn't mean ALL then why didn't He say "some of you?"

@mikelyons2831 2 ай бұрын

@@bobthrasher8226 That does not mean they all will be irresistibly coerced/forced to receive Jesus as Savior. We have choice. See John 5:40, Matthew 23:37, 1 Timothy 4:10, 2 Peter 2:1, Romans 1:18-23. Notice the word "might" in John 1:7, John 3:17 & 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

@bobthrasher8226 2 ай бұрын

@@mikelyons2831 I think we're in "violent" agreement.... I was just beginning my argument from the Calvinist perspective. Finish reading my statement.

@grizz4489 2 ай бұрын

Another position on election...... God calls ALL born-again believers to a life of service in THIS life. Some respond to this summoning, some do not. Of those who respond to this call, some are not faithful in this service and some are faithful in service. In God's future kingdom, those who served God faithfully in this life will be elected / chosen for service in the Kingdom of Heaven ! Election has to do with service for faithful believers in the future Kingdom of Heaven !

@coreykeplinger3391 2 ай бұрын

I can't explain it but I know that I know that I know I am saved. Why? Because the Bible says I can know. I completely reject Calvinism. They might say it's because I'm not really saved. I guess they think only Calvinists are saved and that is a cult like mindset I hate to say.

@coreykeplinger3391 2 ай бұрын

@@kgar5String There is so much to unpack here that if I addressed everything you wrote, I would get writer's cramp, It is so easy for things to be misconstrued when you have a discussion behind a keyboard, rather than a live conversation where you can interrupt someone to challenge their point. I will however leave you with some logic and simplicity. If God is the deciding one on who is saved and who is not, and God shows no partiality nor favoritism to anyone; consider this: God only saves sinners. All have sinned. All will be saved. Calvinists are therefore Universalists. However, if a decision/response is required from man to be saved then that better fits in with the Gospel and provisionism. I'm sorry i did not address many or any of your points but i said why. If there is a way we could have I live conversation, i would be willing to have it.