The Assassination of DPP Froslass by the Coward Tiering Council

Discord: / discord
Patreon: / pokemonbkc

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

(this video gets its title from the excellent film THE ASSASSINATION OF JESSE JAMES BY THE COWARD ROBERT FORD.) 'tis the season to free Froslass...again. www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sand-veil-in-dpp.3558511/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/revisiting-evasion-abilities-in-dpp.3597155/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-snow-cloak.3721756/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/to-the-memory-of-froslass.3732872/

[@sealeo5772]

Never forget that the justification for this ban was a ladder replay at 1200 elo.

[@cyrussouth]

Lmao fr ?

[@thepirate2945]

did they provide a replay of this match?

[@kefkapalazzo1]

Lmao no way bro please be exaggerating

[@itamar586]

Banning Snow Cloak as a whole (instead of banning Snow Cloak+Snow Warning) in DPP OU for the possibility Hail will be activated by an opponent Abomasnow is the same as banning Contrary in gens 6+ for the possibility of switching into Defog. It's uncompetitive when you raise your evasion yourself, it's a strategy when you use the rare opportunity for your advantage. No serious player will say Contrary should be banned because of Defog, so I have no idea what the DPP OU council is thinking

[@siddhantkamble9502]

The example you provided is if anything much much more common.

[@yourdagan]

The rarity of the situation doesn't matter. Sand Stream is much more likely to be in play in an average match, and yet it's no more or less fair for Sand Veil mons (compared to Snow Cloak mons) to be banned outright instead of instituting this simple clause where their trainer simply could just not bring Sand Stream themselves.

[@Blanktester685]

@@siddhantkamble9502 rarity is irrelevent.

[@EggscellentTree]

So what you're saying is sand veil should be unbanned if you dont use tar or hippo?

[@yourdagan]

@@EggscellentTree Essentially. If it's not on your own team, then it's not guaranteed to activate it. You're bringing the mon for reasons besides Sand Veil.

[@zade3488]

Smogon refusing to do more complex bans is actually a huge reason why I find it so hard to get back into the game. The game could be so much fun and have so many frustrating elements removed if people were willing to directly address the issues that exist with good complex bans. Imagine if we never had the Endless Battle Clause because it would be "too confusing for new players" and just banned every pokemon that could cause an endless battle.

[@Werelight]

It’s especially weird because we talk about drypass these days, which is a complex ban that’s actually really nice.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

It's like saying that RBY should be best-of-1 because people would struggle taking 3 sample teams from the Internet.

[@Mikel02127]

Smogon's obsession with avoiding "complex bans" is a detriment the tiering philosophy as a whole. It focuses on making things look pretty instead of addressing the core issue. There are too many instances of cases where a complex ban would both address the overwhelming issue while simultaneously keeping potential Pokemon viable via a different ability or otherwise, but no, it's easier to just ban the Pokemon and call it a day.

[@amberhernandez]

The tiering council when they have a ban complex, but don't want a complex ban:

[@tomgorey9294]

body slam+iron head rachi=not hax hail frosslass=hax ok council

[@zander2758]

Thats what gets me the most personally, banning sand veil because of good pokemon like gliscor and sand being very prominent makes sense, but froslass just isn't that good and neither is abomasnow, jirachi is one of the best pokemon in the tier and can scum out games due to iron head flinches, like people getting haxed by jirachi is a far more common occurance than froslass winning a game because of snow cloak also its crazy.

[@Cobalt957]

BKCs video slowely turn more and more into stop motion productions

[@TR_DJ]

Smogon just said fuck you to my favorite pokemon

[@yourdagan]

This isn't the first time and will not be the last.

[@drewswoods]

A big issue that I see is the lag and video qualiy that froslass produces. On that metric alone, froslass should be completely banned from all tiers.

[@AdminAbuse]

Lmao

[@parkinglotmosh4360]

7:50 this is a tangent but honestly the "luckfest" parts of RBY are probably some of the parts that have kept it fresh to this day. if there wasnt shit like tauros having a reasonably high chance to just OHKO certain mons via hyper beam but also fudge it and sit there like an idiot recharging, the meta wouldve been solved decades ago

[@toastprobably9774]

As a DPP player myself, seeing Froslass get sniped by the council is kinda sad. I've never used it myself, but lead Froslass is cool and Snow Cloak basically never comes into play. Don't you just love Smogon tiering?

[@iantaakalla8180]

All that Froslass is is a suicide lead, but damn if it isn’t the best one before Aurora Veil Aurorus, and unlike Aurorus has some conveniences by being part-Ghost as opposed to being part-Rock.

[@hahawowawesome]

Sounds like we need the “Why RBY isn’t a Luckfest” video asap

[@yourdagan]

Still incredible he even made that claim.

[@ollybomb2100]

Remember when Smogon banned Houndstone because it had last respects, but immediately said that it would be unbanned as soon as basculegion released because only when two pokémon had a base 300 no drawback ghost attack could we know that move was broken good times

[@darienwest4748]

Good times. They didn't even let Basculegion get the move in the first place, cause they only banned Last Respects the same second that Home released, so they never actually "found out" if it would be broken or not 🤔

[@danyg0000]

@@darienwest4748it was using last respects in randbats where it was really good. I’m guessing that the justification was that Houndstone may be broken with last respects only because it had sand rush which allowed it to double its speed which on a move that is essentially an insta kill for every non-normal type Pokémon is broken. So a Pokémon with last respects but no speed boosting ability may be ok but this doesn’t make much sense because the only other two Pokémon with last respects have swift swim which is arguably better than sand rush and we knew they had swift swim before they were released. At least they did ban last respects and unbanned houndstone when Basculegion was released.

[@xaropevic7918]

​@@danyg0000Definitely too late for the ban, it would've been interesting houndstone's use in lower tiers pre-home

[@machoke333]

I used Froslass in every gen 4 OU team this is actually tragic for me

[@Richard-ec8xy]

Same I really liked using scarf to outspeed +1 dragons with ice beam and stop other things with a D bond or a trick

[@MenwithHill]

Didn't expect to be so on board but yeah, I am outraged too now

[@Lankpants]

I'm not 100% sure that the "worse player using RNG to beat the better player" argument really works for this one. Mostly just because the odds of you going against a TTar or Hippo are above chance and if you do you actually have to make good plays to win. Even against weatherless teams I think the core of this team is just so pathetic that it's still not going to come free. As far as stupid RNG strats go, this one is really weak. Under very specific circumstances it could BS you out a win, but like, you're more likely to just lose because of the garbage you bought. It's uncompetitive, but it's also just hot garbage.

[@solomonpnq]

Yeah, I feel that, it's not like Abomasnow is the "Giratina" of DPP OU where you'll see it on every team; there's definitely a lot of things that can check this strategy, and it's not worth losing a pokemon for, I believe.

[@watercrystals9744]

Smogon has genuinely lost the plot The people running the show have become so disillusioned with what made their formats good to begin with and have become completely consumed with this nonsensical and ridiculous attempt at trying to homogenize everything to create this false impression that they're some type of official authority on the game The thread in PR about Dark Void in Doubles OU embodies this like nothing else You have people like Lily genuinely trying to defend the hill that "We can not say Moody is broken if Glalie is the only Pokemon with it" which is down right baffling and legitimately insulting to anyone who has an intelligence of above that of a toddler The fact that critical thought is somehow not something that is ever allowed to be included in an equation for how a problematic situation should be resolved is insane, and that instead we're subjected to adhering to an extremely rigid and inflexible tiering policy that was written almost a decade ago, that is apparently infallible because people like shiloh decided it to be This is a goddamn battling simulator for a niche community that like a children's bug collection game, this ridiculous attempt to create a facade of legitimacy has been nothing but harmful to the actual accessibility of the game and instead does nothing but drive both new and old people away

[@crazycoolkids00]

Preach it, brother.

[@hawkticus_duel_shack]

Hell, they tried to ruin RBY competitive by removing their Best of 3 competitive rules. And the RBY people rioted and forced them to back off. I don't really play a lot of Smogon, but I listen to whats going on in the meta and I have no freaking clue what the higher up people are doing.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

It's like Microsoft: only making things look like macOS instead of preserving funcitonality

[@swaggin1716]

It’s okay froslass, I still love you.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

What's next? Are they gonna introduce RU tiers in gens 1-4 to make tier sequences homogenous?

[@majelalover8837]

RIP to my spikes offence teams (emotionally breaks down)

[@Rhy2412TitanGamer]

Meanwhile, jirachu has made a career out of causing paralysis and flinching pokes to death 😩

[@MegaDav1234]

Watch them ban Dugtrio in ADV for Arena Trap next

[@yourdagan]

There's nothing off the table. They get away with brainless bans all the time because Smogon encourages coddling players over anything else. What makes Gen III OU better than all the other generations has been being eroded for years and will continue to be so, as evidenced by the Speedpass suspect test.

[@Last_Respecter]

This dumb ass tiering action single-handedly forced me to quit playing dpp ou and am now enjoying gen 9 ou. I’ve been playing comp gen 4 since diamond/Pearl came out. These bums couldn’t care less about the uncompetitive nature of Jirachi which has turned tides in important tournament games by way of parahax, but Froslass gets the hammer because some council guy shat on some dude in 1200s low ladder. Not a single f about what the player base thinks. Proper oligarchy. Until we get a new dpp council with different members, don’t really want to play. The guys currently on are too unpredictable with what they allow and ban.

[@Shing_]

Pretty sure on Jirachi's part it's much more complicated topic than them not caring about it. The last survey showed that the players wanted to take action against Jirachi, but rather not ban Jirachi and instead Iron Head, which the DPP council can't do to the due to smogon's rules with complex ban. Trust me, most DPP players n the council wants the Iron Head banned, but it gets denied by the old gen council. So the DPP is extremely stuck on a problem that's not easy to answer. To say the council not care about the community is pretty harsh. Like most players preferred if the Snow Cloak + Snow Warning ban was an option, but that's unfortunately too complex by smogon standard so that's not an option. I'm not saying the Froslass ban is a good thing overall, because I've still seen discussions about it till this day. But there's just some of your points that raises me an eyebrow.

[@oopsalldeoxys5060]

The tiering council really has to go, they just feel so disconnected from the rest of the community and are constantly making decisions based on aesthetics and not practicality

[@ShinyTillDawn]

they're power hungry

[@king_slimy8859]

Idk about power HUNGRY but it's definitely a bunch of losers desperately holding on to the idea that theyre on the council. The prestige of it and making it seem oh so difficult, the aesthetic of this "job" they sometimes frame it as. You decide which 6 pngs someone gets to smack into 6 other pngs holy christ. At most a format will have a few thousand players, let them handle themselves. Your hobby isn't going to crumble into dust and blow away because new players have to read why things are banned, and in a similar but inverse vein, because you banned the funny yellow guy and perhaps discovered he wasnt that big of a deal. Just make changes do things. Thousands of players aren't going to stop playing and never play again because the meta got a little weird for 2 weeks that happens all the time for any random reason.

[@Deredeo13]

BK James: "Go back to bed" Smog Ford: "but I gotta ban Froslass" BK James: "You think you do but you dont"

[@boop53]

i dont play dpp but this sounds like it sucks poor Froslass :(

[@invertr]

one of my favorite teams to use was a mono-ghost team led by froslass, with its unique ability to place hazards among ghost types being very central. very sad to know that it cannot exist under the current ruleset

[@punishedchad8733]

I remember like gen 6 or 7? ou or uu i used to play and wanted to run non speed boost (blaze) blaziken but it was still not allowed, is that a similar thing?

[@bkebradley]

The more I hear you talk about the Smogon people, the more I'm glad I just play randoms, they sound so shitty

[@mordredgx]

i am starting to wonder if the council members even play this game like jesus christ

[@slugmaguts69]

Happy new years! I love Smogon drama!

[@aaronbaldwin1673]

#JusticeForFroslass

[@phantom370]

Guess we will be seeing Clif getting banned next.

[@tysondennis1016]

I would have a complex ban where you can't have a team of Froslass + Abomasnow. Thus, Froslass can still be used, as she will provide counterplay against hail, with attacks against her becoming 20% less accurate. The existence of Ttar and Hippo means that there are passive weather setters in OU outside of Aboma, unlike why Cacturne is banned from ADV OU, where the fact that Ttar was the only existing Pokémon in OU with a weather ability meant that unless someone either a). Didn't bring Tyranitar, the single best OU Pokémon in the tier, or b). Brought Ttar, but made sure that there was a Sunny Day/Rain Dance mon, for the entire battle, Cacturne will be using its increased evasion to compensate for its poor defensive typing, low speed, and frail bulk, setting up spikes and going on the offense with Needle Arm.

[@deezcastforms]

I'll have to wait til tomorrow, but this oughta be good

[@redwarrior118]

The BKC proposal

[@teriso1793]

Is there a possible way to do a complex ban of snow cloak and abomasnow? Froslass was by far my favourite lead in DPP, and i think a complex ban solves the issue and keeps froslass in the meta

[@nSenuh]

BKC

[@toadallynoodle5414]

BKC

[@stealthy9156]

Sure is him

[@spiciestbirb]

#FreeFroslass

[@soma467]

More Smogon Drama !

[@mtk77621]

Fun fact: this video was made during covid

[@BeforeThePast]

BKC you sound kinda based

[@JohnCena-fr5ff]

Can you make a video about why gsc OU is often regarded as the most skillful meta? Like, I have seen people compare it with chess. Why?

[@Guy-hd5lx]

Well, can’t say I’ll miss getting cheesed even harder by hail, an already cheese strat.

[@andrewshotathompson5116]

I wonder what would happen to the metagane if evasion clause was to limit evasion users to one per team instead of a blanket ban I feel that would be an interesting experiment

[@ShinyTillDawn]

Cacturne in ADV would fuck up the metagame.

[@andrewshotathompson5116]

@@ShinyTillDawn Oh i'm not suggesting releasing anything into existing metas, i just think it would be an interesting experiment. People might end up with teams based around specific evasion abusers as well as ways to counter the opponents single evasion user, or a team might forgo evasion entirely to focus on something else I just wonder how that would play out in practice is all i'm saying

[@kammerverschluZ]

I also love that movie❤

[@BigBoneBusiness]

So as a noob who has only been a mildly interested outside observer, I've frequently wondered: if this is run on a simulator 99% of the time (as far as I understand), why not program something like Snow Cloak to simply not be functional unless the battle is in AG or something similar? Does it set a dangerous precedent for self-balancing the game and changing it instead of regulating it? Is it for the benefit of people who might want to use Smogon rules with their actual cartridge?

[@tmgn7588]

The moment you change something, not everyone will agree on it. Type or other changes are better left to custom communities.

[@rjante2236]

​@@tmgn7588You say that, but Freeze clause is a change to the game's mechanics.

[@thatguy00271]

the video playback is baaaaaaaaaaaaad

[@Slaapaav]

they banned cacturne from ou so this is fair

[@algar6616]

Free fross

[@kiranearitachi]

Ill take reasons i play vgc for 500

[@vaughnrudy8084]

If the worse player won they were the better player #real

[@willjoyce5013]

I get it but as an outside observer this besmirching of Mr. Mime as illegitimate and certain legal strats as cheese feels like competitive players not liking anything outside of the norm that gives them advantage. We have comboes in MtG and only morons lament them unless banworthy, it's a legit strat and it doesn't matter if you're the better or worse player if the thing does as intended. Without them everyone would be on our versions of stall or hyperaggro. Sometimes players deserve to get punished for building / playing too fairly. You guys complain about RNG all the time when you signed up for RNG, that's all Pokemon is. If someone builds a team that flips coins until they win or lose they built and piloted something designed around such well if you lost to it. If you played more games you'd win too off RNG but it's only looked down on when against you I agree, the start of the video feels like it comes out of bias except specifically to Froslass' banning

[@willjoyce5013]

I'm all for complex bans and complex addendums to bans

[@ShinyTillDawn]

Pokemon is partly a luck-based game, but there are some elements of luck we want to cut out and other elements we don't.

[@willjoyce5013]

@@ShinyTillDawn I get that but until banned they're valid options. Sometimes we just lose to a combo or such but that's that deck / team / whatever in the respective game doing its job and I can appreciate that. When it doesn't it usually loses spectacularly

[@xaropevic7918]

I get it that as also a MtG player but on MtG your gameplan can be either generalistic, disruptive or fast enough to counter play against it. You can't defeat the "baton pass combo" by killing the opponent's pokémon fast enough, and if they setupped and passed, there is no defensive counterplay, after all, if something is tanky enough to deal with Idk, +6 metagross in gen3, that would be an obviously broken wall. So you can't either outaggro them or stall them out, only disrupt them, with things that are way more niche and worse than thoughtseize or counterspells. Also you admitted that there are broken combos, which happens usually due to low interactivity or uncompetitiveness, and a great example is the most recent one, geological appraiser combo. While actually some samples showed that Amalia combo had better win rates than Geological Appraiser, it is healthier because it has more opportunities to react with interaction (despite being more resilient) and less matchup fishy (good luck trying to resolve it against control when is the single card that matters lol), so it was banned because most games were pretty repetitive and just a matters of "interaction check", which kinda happens the same to baton pass, it is just a check to see if you hae counterplay to it or not. Also one difference other than being different games, but different organizations, while WotC's P&R (I think this is its name, right?) cares about competitivity, it has other priorities, which sometimes is fine and good, sometimes is not, Smogon's number 1 motto is competitiveness, which means that how matchup reliant a meta can acceptably be in both formats is really different (also due to card game limitations and other differences) and another factors that to smogon, the most skillful player should win unless you aren't lucky, so cheese strats that don't use skill DURING THE BATTLE are disregarded, while on magic, the skills during building is valued more for those

[@notjack2491]

Jirachi + Iron Head is okay based off a survey where no respondents found it fair, but 80% didnt want to take any action. But one 1200 elo clip is all it took for the book to get thrown at Froslass. Edit: Not to mention, the originator of wanting Froslass banned, Excal, in a post about the fairness of DPP Jirachi years before said he didn't want to discuss or debate smogon tiering policy about the matter, yet goes out of his way to cite it and reference it to get a niche Pokemon (who, honestly, is outclassed by things like Walrein for Hail abuse, and is often used as a lead spin blocker) like Froslass banned. Talk about polarizing

[@phantom370]

The "elite" making decisions for all us deplorable players.

[@meteorjohnson139]

@@phantom370 Exactly. Seems the real world really does show itself in Art smh.

[@Altthiel]

Unbanning drypass, thus making a complex ban on baton pass and then banning froslass for the sake of "no complex bans" is beyond baffling to me. I'll miss you froslass...

[@the_blahhh]

Collateral damage = dry pass celebi. Froslass? Never heard of em.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

No complex bans, eh? Does this mean we can reverse Alderon's Proposal in BW OU?

[@hattruck8607]

Why not just ban the combination of Snow Warning and Snow Cloak? Yes,I know that sounds like Ald*ron's Proposal,but unlike Gen 5 rain,Gen 4 hail is far from OP

[@yeet8036]

Why did u censor aldarons name

[@internetguy7319]

the problem was never complex bans, it was bad tiering

[@gb4206]

No one shall mention the cursed one's name.

[@jimmy13morrison]

​@@gb4206voldemort?

[@fidgety9001]

Because the dpp tiering council doesn't have the option...except for some reason with baton pass to bring it back without statpass or trap pass. But despite years of outcry the community can't even get an official discussion on Ihead because the global old gens council, who are, as mentioned, more concerned with things looking consistent rather than being functional, deems it "Too Complex"

[@bigbrainenergyguy]

So I've got to get this off my chest. I'm a new player to competitive pokemon, got into gen 3 because of jim cool. People criticize smogon a lot for how it's handling the current generation and accused them of trying to run every tier under the same formula. I've felt these accusations are too simplistic and I've defended their decisions in gen 9 as "doing the bet they can." Now I'm not so sure. The attitude of so called "tiering admin" Shiloh in the thread about banning speedpass from gen 3 really rubs me the wrong way. Now, I agree something should be done about ninjask teams as they are a matchup fish that nearly auto-wins or auto-loses most matchups (not to mention the sand attack sets fishing for subs), which is clearly not healthy for the format. Yet here's what they have to say about it: _"hi, going to make a post as tiering admin._ _while its true that it is not explicitly written that we need to make as few changes as possible, the issue of BP in ADV has been something that has consistently gone against how we tier in other tiers, and at this point continuing to make exceptions to tiering policy in order to keep trying to whittle at the problem is clearly not working. every other tier at this point has always looked at the root cause of the issue with BP, which is the move itself and not specific abusers._ _time has long passed where we can just keep saying to ban smaller and smaller elements and keep trying to find the ideal outcome for how to keep baton pass in the metagame while taking the smallest possible approach at each step of the process. this does not have to be written anywhere within tiering policy in order for it to be something that we follow. at a certain point where every other tier has either banned the move or banned stat passing in total, ADV cannot keep going down this path where BP is needed to be looked at every 6 months when a new strategy is found. it is clear at this point the issue lies with the move, and even the idea of just suspecting speedpass (as is being done) is pushing what should be acceptable at this point._ _the tiering policy is a bit outdated at this point in numerous ways, and the goal is to have an update to it within the next few months. cases like this will be included, but as of now how the ADV council has gone about this is in line with Smogons tiering, and what I had advised them to do."_ First of all, what's the rush? Outside of gen 3, the only tier that's more popular is the current generation. Nothing else comes even close. This is despite the fact that baton pass teams have apparently been a consistent issue. It seems that new players (like me) are still coming in and loving the tier, while experienced players are content to make bans targeting specific abusers of BP in order to preserve more legitimate teams that use the move. Clearly targeting BP itself isn't necessary to keep the tier alive, so I must ask: why the rush? Why not just continue targeting specific abusers? The tier is thriving and top players are content to ban specific abusers, so why the rush? Is it too expensive to continue doing suspect tests? Doubtful. So again I ask, why are we suddenly in a rush to have a permanent solution? This brings us back to the beginning. The accusations leveled at smogon. Maybe I was naive to dismiss those arguments when this "tiering admin" who doesn't even play gen 3 comes into the forum and berates us for not doing things like every other gen. At this point they're just admitting it. They want gen 3 to be run the same way the other tiers are and hate that it gets "special treatment," but maybe the issue isn't gen 3 getting special treatment, maybe it's the other gens that are being run poorly. Considering none of them even come close to the popularity of gen 3, this is a perfectly reasonable conclusion. Despite this, smogon tiering admins want to come in and force it to be like other gens. At this point, all I can ask is "who the fuck do you think are?" I'm by no means an incredible player, but I did reach #54 on the gen 3 ladder after about a month of experience, so I must be decent even if that was a lucky run. I hate ninjask teams because they aren't fun to play against even when I win. Something needs to be done about them. I acknowledge that something needs to be done, and at the same time I will echo HCLAT's sentiments in that I would rather do nothing than allow this treatment of gen 3 to become the new standard for how the tier is handled. Smogon hates complex bans and would rather keep things simple, but while simplicity is pretty it isn't automatically better or healthier for the metagame than a complex ban. It seems to me that the egos of the people running smogon have gotten too big for their britches, and I would hate to see them ruin this game that I now love, just because they want to simplify to the ruleset to look neater.

[@hawkticus_duel_shack]

I don't know if you heard, but Smogon tried to ban RBY from doing a Best of 3 as they have traditionally done, because apparently the DPP players wanted to do a best of 3. This did not go well for Smogon as the RBY players lost their shit and nearly rioted and so they walked it back, but yes, the heads of Smogon don't seem to have any respect for the older formats and so want them all to act the same as the modern ones, which is just stupid. The old ones have their player base and they like it the way it is, buzz off and leave them alone.

[@xaropevic7918]

I also tried to defend the management of them at gen 9 because there isn't much to do, the format is so powercreepy in offense that you need like 10 bans and still not enough, but they could've been more proactive on tera by quickbanning it for a week and then unbanning and suspecting it, or better, revealing the type for a week to suspect that measure and then knowing if more would need to be done or not (obviously better than the way it is now), but suspecting gliscor and then not auspecting either gholdengo or kingambit was a red flag and then now today/yesterday they quickbanned sleep (when if they wanted less complex rulings, or ban hypnosis or valiant and darkrai), which is not only worse than this on the sense that soft bans breloom and amoonguss out of the metagame (they have way more of a niche than froslass), but changes a lot of lower tiers, which is another problem of clauses on OU, a lot of times they ban things that affect lower tiers when that shouldn't necessarily be the case. It is fine to each tier has their own ruleset imo because the number one priority from smogon should be competitiveness, THEN consistencity, and if being incosistent makes it more fair, then who cares, if I want to play UU well, I should know its rules

[@xaropevic7918]

How did I forget about last respects pre home? Houndstone would be really interesting in the lower tiers pre-home

[@brandonstephens2644]

Is the Coward Tiering Council CTC's real name?

[@darkshadow0308]

That can't be the goat's true name

[@xtinaxendrix]

The tiering mains are currently forcing an unpopular ban on all speedpass in gen 3 when the problem is clearly one abuser, Ninjask, who we aren't allowed to suspect because they prefer to "ban mechanics instead of abusers" which is totally how they're approaching gen 9, right? RIGHT?

[@akfrost]

I sometimes do wonder if the pokemon company is paying them, because I can't think of any reason why "we can't ban the current gen gimmick" would make sense otherwise.

[@moleyswag1311]

Just ban it all. Ban everything, everywhere. Oh, ten mons getting banned at once in current gen OU? I love the energy, but NOT ENOUGH BANS

[@Azdaja13]

They should just ban the Pokemon games outright. That'll solve everything. In fact, they should ban themselves too just to be sure.

[@SteveScapesYT]

Essentially if it was worth saving Dry Pass Jolteon or ADV “good” BP, it’s worth the effort to save Froslass. Certainly at least as worthy a cause as saving BW Rain.

[@homuraakemi3287]

I think if we REALLY want to get into 'Rules Parity' nonsense like Smogon is so often excessively fond of then the final boss is 'Why don't we ban Snorlax in Gen 2?'

[@olivergro7105]

Because zapdos completely takes over the meta and it's just a battle of who keeps there zapdos the longest. Snorlax is annoying but it counters so many important targets that it's needed for gen 2 OU.

[@yourdagan]

He's already made a video about that. But the fact is Smogon has no shortage of nonsense decision making. It's founded upon it.

[@zander2758]

​​@@olivergro7105i don't think the OP was denying that, he was just pointing out the "rules paroty" contradiction, i mean hell if zapdos was that broken if lax got banned then zapdos could be banned afterwards and so on, i've always heard that something broken keeping other broken things in check is not a argument that flies basically anywhere, i'm not saying this is what should be done btw, i think gen 2 is fine in the state it is in, but it does show how contradictory it is and many new players to this day ask how a pokemon who has 100% usage and the whole metagame revolves around it isn't banned, or how gen 2 has some restrisctions on trapping moves not present in any other gen.

[@hawkticus_duel_shack]

@@zander2758 Because Gen 2 is weird. Its probably the only Gen where "Broken checks Broken" is actually true. Lax checks a long list of busted Special Attackers and he's required to do that cuz Chansey doesn't threaten them. I assume you know this, but Im just saying it for clarity. But yes, if the Tiering Council was being consistent, they would try and force that on the Gen 2 folks, who would riot like the RBY folks did.

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

If Showdown's Legality Check had links for posts from the Council which itself describes and referred to previous discussions regarding said topic that your team was deemed illegal for, the 0.5% of new players that they were oh so worried about would be remedied if they really care in the first place.

[@Dave_Chrome]

I didn't usually run Froslass myself, but I've seen it especially in lead position often enough on the ladder to not agree with the ban. I've never personally encountered a Snow Cloak strategy Froslass, ever. Actual Froslass sets, many many times. This sucks

[@themetalgoddess]

Why do some of these council members let their unresolved Double Team/Sand Attack trauma make their decisions? Are they seriously making the case that Snow Cloak is somehow worse or 'less competitive' than Iron Head Jirachi? Why are some RNG elements somehow seen as worse than others? Like, I get it with Chomp and Gliscor, 'cause those mons can become game-winning machines with that one free turn they might get (since they're stellar mons anyway), but are Froslass & Glaceon EVER gonna be a gamewinner after one free turn?

[@Azdaja13]

Because they're idiots with fragile egos that have deluded themselves and each other into thinking they're "perfecting" the game and they'll contort logic to do whatever they feel like doing when really trying to remove luck from a game where luck plays a huge role is the height of stupidity.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Also, no Pokémon that has Snow Cloak wants to run it. Alolan Sandslash and Beartic, as offensive sweepers in snow/hail in lower power levels, wants Slush Rush. Alolan Ninetales and Vanilluxe always wants to set snow/hail. Nobody uses Articuno. The non-Snow Cloak abilities of Piloswine and Mamoswine help them with resistances or, since Gen 8, blocking Intimidate. And it is noteworthy that since the competitive shift since Gen 6, no Gen 6-onwards Pokémon has Snow Cloak. And yes, a doubles strategy with an Articuno with Bright Powder and Snow Cloak is used, but that is more a demonstration of the increased bulk Snow provides. Even better, this is generalizable to every single generation where Snow Cloak is out. While it is true evasion strats should be banned, here it can be a tripwire - they don’t ban Snow Cloak because no one uses Snow Cloak. If they do, then it is banned.

[@14fluffies]

Damn that lead PorygonZ put in work.

[@pikminologueraisin2139]

if even the lead metagame is going to become lame in dpp ou imma stick with adv

[@yourdagan]

Once upon a time not too long ago, Gen IV OU used to be more popular than Gen III OU. Now, that's utterly far from the case. You won't see the respective councils ever doing reflection upon why that would ever happen, however. They can't see how their own policies are creating metagames fewer and fewer people desire to play.

[@David-gi7vu]

BKC can you make a video about bw ou volc and cloyster suspect + gems debate? The thread on smogon is pretty interesting

[@metamaxis]

First video I've seen of this guy, and already like him. Preach.

[@SamaelDionysus]

Justice 4 Froslass!!! 🤍💙🤍💙🤍

[@grayblood2419]

Scizor Apology video when

[@Izuhra]

BKC is the most logical pokemon discussion host :D

[@petrie911]

Snow Cloak shouldn't be banned to begin with.

[@vvvvaaaacccc]

here's hoping the DPP community can get this amended according to their wishes, like how RBY got the best of 1 decision reverted to best of 3.

[@doc_1203]

a travesty indeed

[@michaelballack3051]

I know you don't usually comment on recent generations updates or tiering decisions but any thoughts on the controversial and uncontrollable mess of generation 9 OU?

[@MrEntinen]

Would it not be somewhat hypocritical of BKC to go on his 11th rant on how people who don't even play [a tier] should keep their uninformed mouths shut and then go and spout an uninformed opinion on [a tier] he doesn't even play?

[@Spicynugz223]

I liked that JimCool brought a council person to discuss it, I would possibly ask that BKC discuss with a tournament player/high ladder gen 9 player about Kokoloko concept, comparing it to Gen 5/7 (in my opinion those gens are the closest proxies for team building against too many threats like this gen), and defining the end result for the meta game state (ultimately ban Tera/keep Tera but ban abusers which ultimately reduces the pool of pokemon too much)

[@Spicynugz223]

Having so many pokemon in the pool bc it’s fucking gen 9 is part of the team building problem, but it’s actually even bigger than that because Tera switches their types and counter play (take kingambit: can’t WoW Tera fire, tera fairy on knock off/draco meteor/close combat , Tera flying on eq, and that’s just defensively. Offensive Tera is monstrous with dark and fighting, or Tera blast fairy).

[@Spicynugz223]

In the thread that Jim linked in his video, I liked one of the posts where a user basically asked if we’re just too used to past gen power levels for OU and if we need to redefine the new power level ,which is fair given the surge of viable 570+ BST mons on top of classic strong mons from past gen’s, Zama Deoxys Darkrai all falling too.

[@yourdagan]

The last time he's commented upon it was just to talk about how absurd it was for Tyranitar to fall to RU.

[@arkelon]

So i guess this is why i got recommended that baton pass video earlier

[@dylanf3108]

They really took my boy. My favorite gen 4 addition.

[@corumj1962]

7

[@Kuroo39]

Only 1800 and above elo players for each tier (scaled down for tiers with low player counts) should be able to vote for stuff like this, and this includes council members.

[@yourdagan]

Does Gen IV OU even have 1800 players? Even Gen III OU didn't like 6 months ago, and the majority of year prior to Autumn in general. A silly proposal.

[@zylen3167]

@@yourdagan1800 elo, not top 1800

[@yourdagan]

@@zylen3167 I did not misunderstand you.

[@Kuroo39]

@@yourdagan I mentioned 'scaled down for tiers without a lot of players', learn to read. 1700~ is enough for gen3 and 4 nowadays as you can reach that in a few days very reasonably if you play a lot. The elo requirement is there so whoever voting at least understands what the tier is actually like to play as to even get to those numbers you need to play a bunch of games with decent players.

[@yourdagan]

@@Kuroo39 Gen III OU is not "low playcount". Perhaps specify your terms more.

[@BiggerK]

Thank you Big Kevin 🐔

[@EIbows]

Why's the frame rate in this video so horriric

[@Eddie_Enfer]

I get complex bans bros, but dudes, remember your opponent can run an Abomasnow too, so the complex ban did not solve the "problem" I think smogon should address this in a greater way, like the freeze clause of gen one, why not deactivating the evasion abilities and basically have an abilityless mon?

[@ShinyTillDawn]

Showdown wants to limit the amount of cartridge mechanics to alter (ex. Counter desyncs) to keep authenticity.

[@Rose-ez7yn]

serperior is broken since it has an ability that can literally give it an evasion boost after getting hit by defog, a very common move mind you. this breaks evasion clause so bye bye serp 👋

[@rjante2236]

I see people argue against your point but cry for Froslass to be banned. I just don't understand these people. You can't do both, plain and simple.

[@hattruck8607]

I love that title😂

[@Veecy]

"I am a big fan of getting rid of every kind of stupid strategy that a worse player might use to try to cheese a better one." This explains a lot about why you so strongly dislike modern BW OU

[@Magikarpador]

maybe it's a hot take but like i kinda wish they just kept tiers as how they were at the end of the generation instead of continuing to change and mess with older established metagames.

[@yourdagan]

Now, as someone who is highly fond of Gen I OU but is highly critical of Gen II OU, I see parallels in their discourse. I can say that Gen II OU is inherently slow-paced because of the Sleep Talk mechanics, lack of boosting moves and high base power moves, restriction of Spikes to one layer, maxed out stats across the board, and the nigh necessity of explicitly walling Snorlax---and thus myself conclude it's therefore unenjoyable, while a proponent of the tier concludes the opposite. The point is that the facts of what the metagame is like and the consequences for how it plays out can easily be agreed upon, while the opinion of the game's quality remains a matter of debate. Similarly, I can point at numerous freeze wars (brought on by the nigh impossibility of curing freeze), the upwards of 7 turns spent sleeping which can come off turn 1 from a 60% accurate (or 75% accurate move at best) and not uncommonly from a mirror matchup both trying to land it, the omnipresence of paralysis, the baked-in importance of critical hits chance to certain mons' viability (both as users and victims), and even the commonality of Blizzard (90% acc) vs the virtual absence of Thunder (70% acc), as all elements supporting the notion that Gen I OU is an RNG-fest that revolves around getting lucky---and yet conclude that it's a good and fun metagame despite that. So even if there are people who say RBY is RNG and therefore it sucks, they aren't wrong about the first part, just potentially about the second. Having a negative view of a metagame doesn't change the facts forming their basis for disliking it.

[@yourdagan]

Yes, a Sand Veil + Sand Stream complex ban does make sense. A bunch of Pokemon that have no other option, like Cacturne and Sandslash, *should not* be punished just because of metagame trends and the *opponent* bringing a mon(s) that make themselves stronger. That's an issue with opposing teambuilding. Besides, missing moves is inherently a part of Pokemon. Using Hydro Pump or Thunder is just as much of a gamble as bringing Sand Stream in a meta with Sand Veil allowed. It's myopic/short-sighted to be so focused on RNG like these evasion abilities you can "control" through bans when Pokemon is fundamentally RNG all the way down. All that's being done is making the game more barren.

[@Jaybird-145]

I caught myself writing multiple massive paragraphs about this, but I don’t wanna bother, especially since there’s a nonzero chance you’re just trolling anyway. Basically, it’s unreasonable for an opponent to deal with an SV mon. The only way to eliminate the risk of immediate loss (through missing 57,000,000,000 attacks in a row against a little goober) would be to never use Hippo or ttar, and forcing players to do that would be absolutely asinine. You should never lose a game based off of the mere EXISTENCE of a singular, INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND PROMINENT Pokémon on your team. Also, it’s way less reasonable to deal with SV misses than hydro pump or thunder misses. You can choose to run surf or tbolt, and if you miss, you have other Pokémon with 100% accurate moves to fall back on. Running Hydro Pump or thunder is a choice of risk reward that most players specifically choose to make in the team builder. If your opponent brings SV, there are no other moves or mons to fall back on. Pokémon is random, but the point of bans is to keep it somewhat competitive (while still replicating a gameplay experience you could hypothetically have on cartridge). Also, SV mons are inconsistent. Players who care about consistency use actually decent mons, like fighting types, to deal with ttar. SV mons aren’t for players who want to outsmart their opponent or play better than them (perhaps winning with assistance from luck), they’re for players who want to rely entirely on luck. If you like sandslash that much, then please go and play in a lower tier, because I’ll be honest: it really just sounds like you’re venting. To put all of that in a different way, Sand Veil is banned for the same reason that the Sleep Clause exists: nobody who plays OU wants to (or should have to) deal with Deoxys-S (Breloom for a better example) and putting all of their mons to sleep. Stuff like this isn’t reasonable, Hydro Pump is. Edit: looks like it ended up being massive regardless

[@yourdagan]

@JonathanWalker-hc3qy @JonathanWalker-hc3qy Notice how you honestly think someone who disagrees with you is trolling. It's a childish mentality to believe that the opposite side has no validity, genuineness, or credible basis. No, it is not unreasonable for an opponent to deal with a Sand Veil mon. The accuracy drop is 20%, *in the event they DO bring Sand Stream*, which is the same as Hydro Pump when using a 100% accurate move like Ice Beam. People regularly willingly run Hydro Pump not uncommonly at all. They are already well accustomed to that level of risk and the consequences of missing. Second of all, having to play against Sand Veil is nowhere near an automatic loss. You have a 1/5 chance to miss 1 attack, which may or may not matter. With the exception of Garchomp, 1 miss against them is far from the end of the world. In cases where they are simply stalling with Substitute, as opposed to attempting a Swords Dance sweep, you have plenty of opportunities to counteract. And then, you go into this bit about Sand Veil being for this or that, when the reality is, some mons like Cacturne and Sandslash have no choice but to be Sand Veil, and are unavoidable casualties of such a ban policy, yet they are far from useless outside of using their ability, with Cacturne having Spikes and Sandslash having Rapid Spin and its defensive bulk plus Swords Dance. Everything you said regarding the alleged motives of players using "SV mons" is irrelevant when the point is about SV mons outside of Sandstorm. A player of these mons has as much control over whatever team their opponent brings as they do which attacks their opponent misses: none. And really, how dare you insinuate this is motivated by some sort of favoritism on my part when your entire argument is founded explicitly upon favoring the convenience of Sand Stream users against other players. You really should reexamine your reasons for believing all the things you've claimed---if it isn't just motivated purely by the simple desire to have one less thing you need to worry about losing to, which I suspect it is. What this is about is Smogon not continuing to arbitrarily limit parts of the actual game just because they don't want to risk losing to it because it inadvertently counters their favored way of playing they so desperately wish to not be forced to change. That attitude is anything but "competitive"!