The Beauty of RuneScape | Ramble

[@heboxjonge]

I am aware that i missed clue scrolls as things that incentivize players to train skills. in hindsight sherlock was maybe not the best idea. but well in the first place clues are optional in general. and its not that you cant complete a clue without skills. just less effective cus you gotta drop some of them.

[@Erik_Arnqvist]

When I was new I found that highly motivating in the sense that it gave me a tangible reason to get 87 herblore or whatnot

[@Notahamneem]

Clues give a goal which I know tons of people use as a progress guide (I mean theres multiple 'trail only' iron accounts). Not to mention clues are usually not worth completing, and if your going for all pets you be doing A LOT of skilling. Skiling makes up such a huge portion of this game and I can fully appreciate not having the time or energy to sit down and grind out 99s but you gotta like it somewhat else why not just go play a game with no skilling and a better pvm experience like WOW?

[@erikstrand9876]

cluescrolls in runescape2 didnt have all the weird requirements of modern clue scrolls and it was fine. These requirements are just a way to force you to spend more time on the game. It's unethical manipulation tbh

[@heboxjonge]

@@Erik_Arnqvist strong fella, uses the obstacle as motivation

[@heboxjonge]

@@erikstrand9876 toxic mods..

[@gangiskon]

"everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weights" - Ronnie Coleman

[@heboxjonge]

yeah buddy!

[@rampartj1843]

Once skills became useless in terms of Gp/Hr I think a lot of the player base started to dislike skilling, zulrah & vork and many others killed profitable skilling methods

[@tetee6789]

Even guardians of the rift, new runecraft minigame totally crashed rune prices, I know runecraft used to be so shitty skill to train but...

[@TehBleuBelly]

Definitely don’t speak for everyone, but for me I find it quite enjoyable that there are a bunch of seemingly unrelated requirements or QoL boosts for a lot of things. It starts a wild goose chase that is probably more fun than the content I am preparing for in the first place. Removing that would be a mistake imo, but idk maybe I’m the strange one

[@heboxjonge]

no ur not, thats how osrs just is. some only want the rewards without the effort. and thats what i dont like, when those players complain

[@selkokieli843]

I often enjoy the preparation phase planning more than doing the actual goal😅

[@ExoticLlama]

And it's the best part of starting new accounts, imo. Your path is never the same on two accounts due to updates, learned mistakes / improvements over the last acc, or just simply not feeling a grind so you change it up.

[@foxlery]

I've decided I want to do A! For that I should do B, and before that C, cool... Wait but then there's Q, huh and would make sense to do E at the same time, but then I have to do Y... hmm maybe I won't do E, alright back to doing Q, oh I should do W... (*3 hours later you're doing none of these things*) gaming

[@Yltimate_]

Name a more iconic trio than Jim, Billy and Timmy

[@heboxjonge]

Jim stood up against big pvm, props to him

[@MegaMrYutube]

Jeremy, Richard, and James

[@zachariahhowell4342]

Nice points & advocacy for vertical progression within a skill. You are quite right that "I want an AFK method" usually means "I don't like the current training methods for this skill". Which is a different problem! Making skilling more fun is the real solution.

[@zachariahhowell4342]

..of course Jagex's way of making things more fun being skilling mini games is debatable, but several of them do serve the fun purpose.

[@StealthofBlade]

Giants' Foundry did a great job with the scaling through moulds. I think that's a great example of what can be implemented into other skills.

[@Lost_Pikachu]

The beauty of this game are the 2-8 hour grinds that suck at first and by the time your done, you're glad its over and for a brief minute you feel accomplished

[@Lost_Pikachu]

@matthewxie1771 just got 99 agility. My concept of time was out of wack

[@SoldierXfreedom]

My biggest gripe is making every skill alike. Some skills should be inherently slower, some more intense, some fast, some AFK. It seems like the goal of the community is to offer the same training methods for each skill, which removes the uniqueness of the skills. Whats worrying is people saying we should have Forestry for other skills.

[@TacetTheTerror]

I think the biggest issue is the over focus on PvM in Runescape over the years. The two main times I quit the game was upon dungeoneering's release and when Theater of Blood was added to OSRS. They were the main turning points in both versions of Runescape where it became very apparent that skilling is dead and the game only cares about PvM now with skilling just being an afterthought. The amount of people now that just want to get full best in slot with around 1,500 total level rather than finding max cape to be priority is rather staggering. The game has power creeped skilling to irrelevancy with boss/raid loot dropping nearly every useful resource in the game, making gear stronger and stronger with 0 downside to weaker equipment, and by a increasingly larger percentage of all useful unique experiences in the game being combat focused. As for low effort skilling, it has its place. On track to have max cape in the first year of making my HCIM and nearly 75% of my exp can be viewed as low effort methods. Have a lot of time to idle in game, and when I do play I offset the dozens of hours of low effort with mid to high intensity skilling. I personally have nothing against Forestry or Shooting Stars, even wanted those teas that were sad to see not get in despite passing a poll, but would say 1 click 6 hour duke mining and 6 hour NMZ is a bit too broken. As long as a method requires active interaction every 10-20 minutes or so would be fine with everything having a 20k-ish method.

[@RandomGamer9]

"People have to skill to access the wider game." Skilling is the wider game!

[@jwolfe1844]

100% agree with your perspective. This game is grind. I love that I can stand out for putting in the time to earn something, to go a different path than the next person. This is a game to be enjoyed through interaction, not auto-pilot.

[@flowers7348]

The champions cape was a huuuugeee grind, I went very dry on several scrolls but I wanted the cape so I did it and it felt great to finish it. Ive collected 100k Starflowers from the cosmic plane and everytime I open my bank it makes me smile seeing them. 200+ days played and im not close to a max cape but I do feel the social pressure to max / make gps.

[@spakjoeXD]

Wait, 100k starflower?! Insane my guy! Awesome

[@jonasvanmaldeghem688]

the skills are the backbone of this game and I'll never forget picking flax and spinning it and mining at the Varrock East Mine

[@tubiethetubiest9354]

As a skill enjoyer myself I feel the same way about the Combat achievments. I don't like that doing efficient Clue scrolls is locked behind it.

[@bare_brain]

having these challenges and grinds that take hundreds of hours for some things are what makes this game so fun and rewarding

[@mategido]

100%

[@thelegacyofgaming2928]

People are completionist, so even if they hate it, they still want the 99's. I thought this was obvious.

[@snaccs4244]

I really enjoy your content. Always very informative and organized with your thoughts. Keep up the good work fellah!

[@created1711]

12:22 things like this are why hebox is my favorite content creator lmao

[@unreale2695]

I am 16 and quite new to the game and watching this video really captures my perspective on the game. Skilling is not a chore its a core part of the game and for me its the most fun part of the game atleast so far. Really enjoy all your videos and i very much agree with you even though im a much younger a newer player then most people.

[@heboxjonge]

Upcoming skilling prodigy, love to see it :)

[@hypedsniipe7401]

Skilling would be fun if they completely nerf the pvm drops and make skilling profitable , its a joke that most skills are less than 1m p/h profit even in the 90+'s. People got too used to zulrah and vorkath drops and now expect all supplies to come from PvM , this should not be the case . Bosses should have tables similar to GWD , 10-100k normal drops with rare big uniques that hold value, people shouldn't be able to reliable farm vorkath for 3m p/h in resource drops , it floods the economy and makes all gathering skills completely useless. People enjoy profit , if crafting air runes suddenly became 3m p/h i guarantee people would start doing and in turn enjoy the content because they feel rewarded for it.

[@SuperWoods26]

the marathon analogy sums up this debate perfectly! nice ramble! STAY HARD SCAPERS

[@-Seasons-]

My main gripe with this is people on reddit try to flex that OSRS is one of the grindiest games out there, and then turn right back around and bitch about XP rates or that its too hard to get levels. "OooO owchi my arthritis from doing 5 minutes of MLM". If they just straight up said they want OSRS to have RS3 xp rates and training methods I would respect them more.

[@Saeder]

Great video! Thanks for taking the time to make this in-depth ramble! Lot of great points

[@TheBuddaBrot]

nerf resource drops from PVM. make skilling great again

[@Hybriidzv1]

It never will be good except for niche methods that are high APM. Most of the idiots that say they want it to be good gp want afk 2m/hr and that's never going to happen unless the alch value of an item can achieve that. Blood runes and sepulchre are both good money makers but unpopular due to high effort or with sepulchre high effort and skill. In terms of how low effort it is amethyst is good money for the effort,mlm is ok, and mining reunite ore is good as well.

[@Hybriidzv1]

I will add that woodcutting and fishing in particular don't have very great money makers but due to the nature of the way these skills are with low APM they shouldn't be 1m+.

[@Hybriidzv1]

Thieving and hunter also have great moneymakers but people mostly don't like doing the good money making methods either.

[@ovs4744]

This is such a nostalgic delusion. Most skills have a 1m+ moneymaker but people want this impossible mmo experience of being able to smith the best gear possible or chopping magic trees being insane money.

[@jnastymoney9090]

​@@ovs4744not only that, but how exactly does OP think removing Magic Logs from Wyverns will make chopping Magic Trees 1M/HR. You gonna start paying 10K a Magic Log?

[@GOWJaredGH3]

You spoke on everything very well. I feel the exact same way man. You are a humble dude, never once sit there talkin about 200ms when you are a MAXED Max fella. respect Jonge

[@Awenixx]

Thanks for the shoutout bro

[@XxSupaBAMxX]

Something I thought about is the fact that nmz and splashing existing for 0 effort training methods is actually bad for pvm/raids: it means that you will have a hard time finding a decent team because getting very high stats in those is considered "free" because it can be done effortless. That means that (semi efficently) raiding is gated behind an actual meaningless time sink. If this wouldn't exist, people wouldn't expect it from you as much and you might have an easier time finding teams even with suboptimal stats.

[@Aziz4runescape]

Enough is enough. Thanks for uploading

[@AutumnElegy]

I liked your comparison of skilling to a marathon. I think Jagex made a big mistake from the get-go in OSRS by setting the precedent that skilling will inevitably become easier and faster. If the expectation was that a certain grind will always be basically the same, people wouldn't complain, because it is how it is and it will not change. Same is true of a marathon - nobody complains that it's too hard, because it is what it is. If you can't handle it, just don't do it, or get good. I think the absolute best result for this game would have been to limit major content releases to every 6-12 months minimum, and only do VERY minor QOL changes otherwise. This would give them enough time to really think deeply about the content and how it will impact the game in the long term. They need to be thinking about what each update will result in over the next 5-10 years, not just if it will appease the current low attention span reddit mob that will quit in a couple months anyways. This isn't a tactic that would likely result in big player count gains in the short term, so instead the game is heading down the same crash course that RS3 was however many years ago. It inevitably will lead to RS3 v2: unrecognizable game that alienates the original players, low player count, MTX cash cow, and a never-ending update loop that continues to have diminishing returns on player retention. RS is a game that I want to be able to still play in 10-20 years and still have a familiar experience. Unfortunately the impatience of short term players (and employees) and capitalist profitmaxxing over game integrity just won't allow it.

[@AutumnElegy]

@@legendaryplumber576 is this a threat???

[@nc8186]

It really doesn't matter if there are low effort low xp methods. It's when we get updates like runespan that will cause concern. So far we don't have that. I still think it's hilarious the HLC which I'm technically apart of find more issue with afk skilling than with boosting and alting and buying gp to get 200m all faster. It's very delusional.

[@AutumnElegy]

You really don't think we have methods like runespan?@@nc8186

[@owenwalms]

The combat achievements have very nice rewards, but I know I'm not at the skill level/willing to put the time in so I don't get them. But when it's the other way round, why do people feel entitled to skilling rewards? I don't get the mentality towards it

[@Mason-lr5dz]

Combat achievements are skill-gated, skilling is time-gated.

[@XxSupaBAMxX]

​@@Mason-lr5dzthis is a distinction without a difference since your skill in pvm is a function of your time and effort.

[@Nagatoobito]

@@XxSupaBAMxXskilling is the same thing over and over and over doesn’t change or get any harder or easier , it just stays the same

[@draketurner2102]

as opposed to getting 100 KC at a boss? Zero repetition across kills?@@Nagatoobito

[@Zch]

The bosses don't change either besides like inferno solves. This take only makes sense if you only PK and don't pvm@@Nagatoobito

[@Ishkiz]

great video, totally agree with the points made

[@AnonymousBadassery]

You hit the nail on the head for a lot, friends always ask me why I still enjoy RS after all this time, and its the feeling of satisfaction having completed a long goal or overcoming an obstacle of something hard. I've had a hardcore for 5 years now, and while I meandered around a lot, I set the goal to get the quest cape and 2k total 2 years ago and my account rapidly progressed, there were tons of skills I thought I hated and wouldn't do, and 80 stats felt out of reach, but in the course of getting the quest cape I pushed past all those obstacles. The day I killed Galvek and grabbed that cape was one of the most memorable days on the account. After quest cape I started doing more pvm, and naturally some skills just got to 90 levels by playing the game, and I started to realize I could max, something I saw as impossible before. Fast forward a year later and I'm at 2238 total, with only pretty fast skills to go (even just 5 mining levels!). I've learned so much going for max, and its actually fun to see random people and have them complement my hc because of how far along I've gotten. I am *so* excited to max, potentially in a month with what skills i have left. Along the way I also discovered a lot about what I like, I used to mostly do afk methods, and I thought people like you that did 3t4g and multiskilling were just making things way too complicated for no reason, but as i got further into the max grind I started realizing just how much time it would take, and how doing those methods when you had active time would shave off tens to hundreds of hours from the overall grind. Thanks to your max cape speedrun series I decided to give zmi multiskilling a try and got 99 fletching on the way to 99 runecraft, it ended up being one of the more enjoyable and satisfying 99's. and then Agility came along, and I felt like I was going to burn out on the grind until I discovered Hallowed Sepulchre. It ended up being so much fun that I entirely ran 92-99 at sepulchre and found out there's at least one Agility method I can tolerate. All that to be said, setting those goals and accomplishing them both gave me that satisfaction of overcoming obstacles, and also let me learn a lot more about what I enjoy, I find that I actually enjoy more active methods of playing the game, and that a lot of the "boring" part to me was anything that was more afk, even though when I started a lot of these grinds I believed the opposite about myself. I think a lot of people would be cheated out of really getting to engage with the game and learn what they like and dislike if you add a lot of safe, actual afk methods that reward low xp, because people in general are way more likely to pick something safe and consistent, even if it takes all the fun out of a game. I've played RS since classic, and as long as it exists I probably won't stop, achievements in this game are just so much more rewarding and fun than other games, and investing in an account that I know will keep those gains in the long term is a feeling that very few games offer in the modern era. There's a million more things I could say on it too, but I'll leave it at that, keep up the good work, I enjoy seeing your opinions on different aspects of the game!

[@Awenixx]

This was an epic read bro! Early congrats on maxing!

[@heboxjonge]

such a nice comment man! gl and early gz on maxing :D

[@campfire_minis]

I'm currently on my way to finishing the Desert Elite Diaries, one of the final two diaries for the cape. At the beginning of my KQ grind I absolutely hated jt. The boss had no drops I as a main account could really make use of, it isn't my favorite pet, and 256 maximum kill count for the head seemed like way too much effort for the four-five minute kills I was getting (when you factor in banking and running all the way back every time). I think your outlook has summed up a lot of how I've been feeling about the game recently. This grind was the original cause of my burnout in late 2022, and I couldn't believe I was being "forced" to camp this slow KC boss for something I wanted so desperately. I wanted the game to be something it wasn't, and I quit. Well, I'm back now, and instead of pushing myself to forcibly do the content I dislike I've been cutting away at it when I can after work. I'm up to 151 KC now and feeling better than ever. It isn't a matter of if I will ever complete the diary anymore, but when. Thanks for the great video, it was inspiring and thought provoking. I feel as though our community could benefit from more of these sorts of video essays.

[@snickers980]

Not sure if this is ignorant or been asked before, but why do you have multiple forms of tick manipulation in your inventory at a time? Love the content btw

[@jirixx7297]

Max cape is almost a prereq for going for competitive times in cms (mainly solos) 99 thieve is also a must for any team size competitive times, 90 herblore and 99 farming also very important

[@zoidsfan12]

Tbh skilling is the fun part of osrs for me, for many years I was a skiller and did no pvm. The main people that hate skilling are people that pretty much view the game as pvm with skilling as a extra activity. But the truth is that skilling is just as important, it keeps the game alive by giving you more to do than just combat. The joy of osrs is options.

[@rask7723]

Here again to acknowledge the goat. Still great to see the effort you put in. I pray that it will pay off and you can aquire a massive IRL cashstack.

[@Simonkniv]

"I hate pvming" So I want a afkboss, that drops tbow/scythe, with a low droprate. Thats the same mentality they have about 30kxp/h afk mining. Im glad I quitted back in 2015 as the game became so much easier. They are doing the same mistakes that they made with rs2...

[@imtehkilla24567]

I've really been enjoying your content, and this video is really cerebral and a solid analysis of the current environment. I don't even want to go on the reddit most the time, because anytime I have an unpopular opinion based upon actively playing ironman during the entirity of OSRS the entire hivemind takes turns jerking each other off. I'm motivated to train skills like RC and agility to max because its a challenge to overcome, I don't want easier/less engaging methods to make it more "easier" or more afk, and I think its valid to want others in the game to have a consistent experience instead of the huge gap between casuals and the old guard we currently have. Edit: I also want to point out that GOTR is an example of great content, that you've demonstrated can be really challenging and rewarding with a high skill ceiling, but is still accessible to the masses without having insane xp/hr while still being engaging. The new changes are not in line with content like wintertodt,GOTR, etc.

[@gamingguru2k6]

I know it sounds silly, but my main two goals for my account are a max cape and a Saradomin Godsword. I don't care if certain skills or quest are not to my preferences. I just switch between skilling and questing so I can have fun while working towards my goals. I probably can't get max cape before sailing is added, but I don't care. Sailing sounds like it will be fun. I know forestry has helped make skilling more fun for me. I like minigames associated with skilling as additional ways to grind.

[@jetlife3854]

although I might not totally agree, I really enjoy hearing your opinion. I’d love to watch more rambles bro

[@birdbrid9391]

this game really has a way of digging into human nature, surprisingly so. at a fundamental level, this debate boils down to the two paths that people have had to tread for millennia when met with an obstacle -- to pave over it (reshape the world around you) [ask for QoL/buff updates], or to improve your ability at surmounting it (shaping yourself around the world) [learning efficient skilling methods]. each of these approaches has its place, they're the optimal choice depending on the circumstances, and a well balanced adult has experience in both. but it's clear that this era of rapid technological improvement has created a situation where the median individual can just wait for other, higher capable individuals, empowered the compounding effect of technology on a person's ability to reshape the world, to do just that for their own convenience. essentially we've become accustomed to the de facto truth that eventually, any one thing will get cheaper, easier, and faster. it is thus almost always an overwhelmingly better decision to wait for things to get easier, than to improve ourselves so that things get easier; the latter is usually faster, but the former spends less energy. but a human is the result of evolutionary pressures incentivizing organisms to improve themselves -- all of life is like that. so a deep part of us yearns for the struggle, and for the overcoming of hardships, and for the satisfaction of improving one's situation, specially with one's own work which is independent of any other person or thing which may take away our progress on a whim. we understand intuitively that self-made improvement is more robust long term. and those chemical reward systems are still present in us, despite currently being sub-optimal (as not everyone really needs to worry so much about being very self-reliant. modernity is the era of specialization). it is really no wonder that there appears to be a trend of high level players (in every game) to be interested in self-improvement in the general sense. neglecting this instinct often takes a toll on one's mental health, as it leaves an unfilled void in the shape of life purpose. another thing is that as one grows older, learning becomes harder. neural paths crystallize and resist change so as to not forget abilities that seem to work just fine. it becomes more effort to beg for change than to change oneself. an odd phenomenon, that i believe is very real purely on casual observation, is that those who have diverse, tangible sources of fulfillment (relationships, family, academic achievement, material hobbies,...) are very likely to respond to the noticing of one's inadequate ability to do some game content by simply practicing; instinctively and unquestioningly. so, runescape. i think people who strictly want the game to be easier are blind to the reason for why they even value the content that they wish to simplify. anyone would agree that if an achievement took 10k hours, it's a more impressive feat than one which took 1 hour -- at these extremes there is no debate, but for whatever reason it is the intermediate values that people aren't so sure about. logically it would follow that therefore, a 50 hour achievement is worth less than a 200 hour one, yet it is argued that turning the latter achievement into the former causes no such devaluation. there is a reason why no one gives a shit about private servers and what people accomplish in them. besides the fickle nature of them, where progress may be wiped by a disinterested developer or a c&d from jagex, there is also the fact that training skills and killing bosses in p-servers is often little more than passing a check to the effect of: "are you awake? can you click your mouse a couple times?" yet these servers do exist, and if they exist it's because they were made, and if they were made like this it's because *enough* people wanted it to be so. private servers are what lies at the extreme end of being "player-run" -- they're made by players who take a copy of the game and have free reign to modify it to their whims. viewed like this it's rather obvious why we *feel* like some osrs updates have been "private server-y". it's because 2013-present updates had considerably more decision-making by the player base than those made before then. this means that players act as a force that pushes the game's design in the direction that feels better at the time of deciding where to go, but which ultimately leads to a place where the content is less valuable, resulting in waning and complete loss of interest. the masses don't necessarily know what they truly want, what's best for them, what results in more value over time. this is why a significant portion of successful software projects are led by effectively benevolent dictators, because the pros of being a dictator of software outweigh the cons (which have been made lighter by losing the possibility of mass starvation).

[@heboxjonge]

🤝

[@comrade_raptor]

This is exactly what happened to World of Warcraft as well. Well said.

[@yoyokeepitup]

I'm assuming this is mainly geared towards duke mining, or was this aiming to talk about shooting stars as well? Duke mining, no doubt, needed to go. I feel like shooting stars are in a really solid place, it's fun to run around with people and constantly swap locations to stay on a T6+ to receive a solid 20k mining xp/hr with lots of AFK time. You can achieve very similar things at the motherlode mine, without the annoyance of 5-10 mining bots in every single world crowding the place.

[@heboxjonge]

the video is not about a specific method. its about the whole mindset and shift to "idle" skilling and effort. what im about to say is not targeted to you individually, but if players think star mining is solid right now they have lost it and only say that cus stars benefit them. the xp/h is not the problem at all. what the problem is, is that you can idle for up to 25minutes while you can just walk away from the pc. every other afk way of training a (gathering skill) has like a 30s - 3min afk time. whick makes the xp per click decently high but nothing crazy. with 25mins of shooting stars, 1 click is now suddenly like 8-10k mining xp. the effort (click) to reward (xp) ratio is completely off. I actually made a proposal to stars here: twitter.com/heboxjongeRS/status/1712849294942749095 we could even make it so that the "chunks" stack just like coin pouches for thieving do but that you have to crush them with 1 or a couple clicks to start mining again. the xp rate would stay the same but the afk time would be reduced to like 3mins to be in line again with other methods and stars would still offer a great relaxed mining training method. let me know what you think.

[@yoyokeepitup]

@@heboxjonge This begs the question: Why? Like why make these skills more tedious for the sake of making them more tedious. Why did we add coin pouches to thieving? It adds an annoyingly tedious mechanic that hinders the 95% of the legitimate players to fully hinder the 5% that sit there breaking the game rules by autoclicking. Where do we draw the line? How come nobody in these arguments brings up splashing, or nightmare zone, where you click a super ranging pot every 20 minutes and go eat dinner. Does it not count because it's a combat skill? What's next? Should we nerf karambwan fishing? It's like 6 minutes of AFK for 3k fishing xp, hell that's almost the exact same rates as star mining for a small change in AFK time. What about zeah blood runecrafting? Why does nobody bring this up? There used to be ZERO "AFK" ways to train runecraft, before extended zoom your best bet was roughly a 10 second walk as your "AFK" time. Now you can run for a full minute to the ZMI altar, or a full minute to the blood altar. Should we remove that? Sure it isn't 10 minutes of AFK, but it adds huge amounts of AFK time to a skill that previously had absolutely none. That's an insurmountable increase compared to what star mining did to mining. If you're literally half efficiency on motherlode mine, we're talking one click every 1-2 minutes, you'll still catch up to star mining in xp/hr that's how unbelievably slow it is. I think most of the lines drawn in the sand by the high level community are forgetting a major role in keeping a game successful, and that's quality of life. Adding quality of life to the way you train skills and go about your gameplay doesn't take away from the game, it just adds to how enjoyable it is to play. Star mining doesn't ruin the mining skill, it doesn't even come close to it. Duke mining does, and we've dealt with that.

[@heboxjonge]

@@yoyokeepitup pickpocketing is a shit thieving training method to begin with, the pouches were a dumb fix to combat the most basic autoclicker. and yes nobody brings up nmz and splashing anymore because those skill are already worthless because of those 2 methods. afk methods have a place in this game and ive used many of them myself while going for 200ms. my issue with stars is that they are out of line with other (gathering) afk methods. like you say bwan fishing is a good 3-4min afk just like redwoods, then you have to bank or drop logs. but then stars are suddenly 15-25min afk with just 1 click to keep mining. the xp/h from stars is fine, i would even be fine with it if it was increased but the afk time needs to be reduced to 4mins imo. having stars at 15-25mins sets a bad precedent for future (afk) skilling updates. this isnt making stars tedious, but it will make them more like an osrs skilling method.

[@MrVincjento]

I 100% agree❤ I am a father of 2 and am glad to have 1hr in the evening to do something like gaming. So runescape is just not the game for me anymore. I still watch the content because I love the game. But I know I would frustrate me to death to log in get ready for something and only be able to play for maybe 40 mins. So I find a game which realy is simular to rs but idle. Rs should keep to its core. Already a skillcape is not as impressive as pre EOC. Men I respected the rcskill cape back then. I think you make a solid point regarding make content more viable again instead of adding more layers (to skip them)

[@heboxjonge]

appreciate you and this comment :) have a nice day sir

[@Whyamibzsdmh]

I feel like the game started going on a downwards slope in 2019. You rarely saw the developers catering to entitled players before that. Entitled used to be something describing the average reddit user, not the average OSRS player. People's view of the game and even the game itself has been flipped on its head and it has really taken a toll on the game and the quality of the updates. It's almost rare to see a good update these days and the effect of the bad ones still linger, ToA and Forestry comes to mind. We even almost got a new prayer book that would have ruined the game completely.

[@heboxjonge]

yeah i agree completely man, luckily we can still stop certain updates before they hit the polls, like forestry tea's (or after for the prayer book) but yeah its grim too see

[@Tim82621]

6:25 And whats wrong with that? Im personally a maxed player who enjoys high apm tick manip methods. But if someone doesnt, im perfectly fine with them ‘skipping’ it to reach the content they enjoy. After all most people play the game for that very enjoyment. And the people interested in the other methods will most likely try them out anyway, since theyre much faster

[@Tim82621]

I do like removing the skill requirements from raids tho

[@heboxjonge]

when 1 method is just so much easier than all the other options, you remove the decision making aspect of progressing your account, which is in my opinion a core aspect of osrs.

[@Tim82621]

@@heboxjonge the decision should come from the time spent, if id have to do 10 hours of afk agility to reach the same xp as 1 hour of sepulchre. I’d go for sepulchre. But it would give others another option

[@heboxjonge]

@@Tim82621 i see where you are coming from but i still dont think every single skill needs a method like that. theres also decision making between the skills. listen back to the wildy elite example if you want.

[@clancamper]

I've lived through seeing my old farvorite MMO's die or become unrecognizable from the exact same reason: Devs try to cater to a playerbase that doesn't actually like the game, the changes alienate the older players, and the new ones lose interest. I really don't want to see that happen to OSRS too

[@porchugal]

this is exactly how I feel. every time I see one of these posts complaining about mining I think "why are you playing this game if you hate it?" as if there aren't other games for them(RS3)

[@Mason-lr5dz]

Subscription rates for OSRS are higher than ever, and the game is easier than ever to progress in.

[@a_random_uim]

agree with pretty much all points, but i do think it makes sense for gathering skills specifically to have a slow but afk method. shooting stars were already afkable for 2 hours prior to this update its just that you had to self scout and pray no one crashed you, i do think a slight nerf is in order but overall think this update is fine, albeit a slippery slope. for non gathering skills i do hope they keep their personality and dont get watered down to all be the same in terms of methods

[@exantiuse497]

Why exactly is a nerf needed? The stars were added in the game in 2021 (and in RS2 in 2008 and afaik they function the exact same way) and nobody had an issue with them. Now that they're a popular method people are talking about nerfing them even though the xp rate and the AFK time are unchanged compared to 2 player star before the change. Why? For the record, I haven't mined the stars once since the change, I have no personal interest in mega-slow AFK methods, I just don't think I lose anything if those methods exist for others to use

[@scoops2]

100% with you on this and I'm not even close to ever being max - I'm a mid game player and I'm ok with the long term grind

[@tom4465]

Seems pretty simple to me. Which skills are the issue? Can those skills be improved? Making idle variants of progressing an unpopular skill is like giving up on it.

[@heboxjonge]

no skills are the issue, they all have been updated massively over the years. ppl know they can make things easier if they complain about it, so they complain.

[@boshabadoo]

I think a lot of players are in this new meta of content hopping through mmos. Play the new raids in WoW, FFIV, etc. and avoid content drought. At least a lot of people I raid with do this. It just doesn’t work that well with osrs in my opinion because it’s more of a grind than other games. The problem is that many of this type of player have fragmented or narrow minded views of the games. The thrill seeking adventurers don’t want to stop to click on rocks and trees. Opinion based on my experience. I personally love playing all aspects of whatever mmorpg I’m engaged in. (Maxed iron btw)

[@4kirb]

love the ramble

[@EugeneYus]

the community is literally going through deja vu. bots, complaints of skills, the conversation of game being easy, i dont know where to put the blame but honestly no blame should be put anywhere, we did vote it all in for the most part. edit: your perspective on what players want now adays is really good. content creators imo killed the aspect of learning the game and progression. we viewers see beginning to end game content in a few minutes

[@The1Jebrim]

Good video!

[@storm_osrs]

Improve Continuous Revision 1% Better Each Day Modify / Renew /Examine Focus on Progress Delay Instant Gratification

[@dilliondantin]

A HUGE issue is the gross overuse, and misuse of the word "forced." This is a progression-based MMO, not a spawn-private-server. Ever since Covid, the grind aspect, and the respect for those big achievements, has gone downhill so bad, that it's nearly 6ft deep. Nothing but entitlement and "gimme gimme gimme what I want NOW" Bunch of baby, beta bitches. LOVED the Goggins section... sigh... I miss the old-school aspect of OSRS

[@raicoron3466]

Very specifically what Runescape handles better than any other game I've ever played is the concept of friction. Not even accounting for tick manipulation you can do most actions in the game automatically which is slower, or manually which is faster. Even something as simple as putting watermelons in the compost bins or combining saltpetre with compost, you can choose to either automatically do these actions or manually input way them for way faster output and the cost of way more input. This makes it so that every time you do anything in the game you have to make a choice. Those choices matter and they add up over time. This game is an MMO and that means that everyone will play it differently despite following similar paths. Making these choices are what enforces your journey as your own. That's the real beauty of Runescape, that everyone has a different Runescape despite it being a 2007 clicker game. Tick manipulation is one of the best parts about osrs, and it's not because I love tick manipulating everything. It's because it adds a very clear line between the types of players and how they play the game. The average Redditor will type about how they'd rather do amethyst for 300 hours to reach 99 mining than do 10 minutes of granite because "their wrists would explode." Having tick manipulation lets you put in easily 10-30x the effort as the afk options for 2-5x the output depending on the scenario. The effort being higher than the reward is a very important part of tick manipulation too. It makes it so that only the most determined and driven gamers will choose to pursue those options. I personally only tick manipulate if I like the method. I give every method in the game a fair chance, but some just aren't worth it to me. I did 3 tick sand for 99 crafting and really enjoyed it on my ironman. I tried doing 1.5t daeyalt and I realized I was only doubling my output at the cost of 100x the input. I decided to just watch youtube while clicking every minute or so at daeyalt and enjoyed that more.

[@heboxjonge]

well said! yeah 1.5t daeyalt aint it lol

[@agwar143]

Why am I not surprised that you like David Goggings. Stay hard RSN!

[@Jamsterman25]

Honestly anyone who will only interact with skilling through a 20k/hr afk method is not going to stick around 15,000 hours to max that way.

[@Switxhed]

It’s not really about just doing it all the way to max. It’s just extra low effort passive xp. I’d setup something afk on my phone to do passively at work, gain a free 100k+ xp then come home and get full xp rates.

[@tott598]

I agree with your point but theres also this. I maxed shortly after eoc and quit soon after that because the game was messed up because of many reasons. Then i started again on 07, but some skills i just cba to get to 99 again, mining being the worst of all so i dont mind stars at all, also 92 unlocks amethyst wich is also super afk for low rates, thats why high mining is important. Other afk methods?... It depends on whats already there and if fits in to the game, thats the only thing thats really important.

[@firedupyew1909]

same story here

[@bambo418]

Well if you cba getting some skills to 99, then just don't? Like mining to 85, even pretty chill like mlm, doesn't take a huge amount of time, and from there you can basically do anything you like.

[@tott598]

@@bambo418 i was not getting it to 99 before but i am now because of stars, i will repeat that i got em all before already, its doing it again that bothers me, and if theres afk methods (for any skill) that i can grind in the background and dont hurt the rest of the game, then whats the problem?

[@bambo418]

@@tott598 if doing it again bothers you, then don't. The problem is that it turns a lot of skilling into an afterthought, when it should be an integral part of the game. Especially something as prestigious as a max cape should take a lot of effort, in the same way that getting a pet drop should (on average) take a lot of effort. With such super afk methods you remove that for a big part. You don't need to get 99s. If someone doesn't like skilling that much, then instead of wanting to have it changed, they could just accept that it's not really something for them and deal with the limitations of that. I think the video makes these points quite well too, that's certainly what I took away from it.

[@tott598]

@@bambo418 look at it from the perspective of game design, then "if you dont like it, dont do it", lets designers create whatever they want, because if you dont like it then just dont do it, if a dev actualy things like this he should probably look for a different job lol... Its also a perspective that on the scale of skills just has no merrit, if you dont like a minigame you can ignore it, if you dont like one of the multiple possible training methods you can ignore it, but usualy theres always something thats acceptable, if theres not, well then theres a problem with the design of the skill. The focus and not needing 99s is also a strange angle that really is not a point at all, just more emty arguments that fit your narrative, the skillcap on osrs is 99 so obviously the ultimate skillgoal is 99. If its powercreep your conserned about then i think guardians of the rift had a much bigger impact of devaleuing the rc cape, i didnt see any drama about that update, but when its a skill as hated as rc i guess people dont tend to complain as much. And i have also seen box's video so you dont need to keep repeating him, defeats the purpose of having a conversation tbh...

[@BarbarishFTW]

I completely agree with players having too much influence on gameplay, because in essence it seems like people generally don't understand what will make them enjoy something. It's because of the challenge they keep playing, if they couls get everything super convenient and easy it would delete any sense of achievement. This is also a reflection of how we are as a species lol, we want everything but when we get it it's not enough, joy is in the process, rarely in the goal. This is why people LOVE microtransactions, because they can get what they want fast, but then they don't even realise that it devalued the entire thing they were trying to achieve in the first place, and complain that the game sucks. Tldr people generally don't know shit about their own response to processes and acheivments in life. (and in this case a clicking simulator 🤫😁)

[@heboxjonge]

well said

[@MING00P]

Stay hard, brother! This game has endured so long because of what it is. It's a grind. Everything you do is progress. It doesn't matter how many hours you put in, or what method you're using. You and your account get better each day.

[@plaig]

Hilarious that this new playerbase who hates skilling so much just voted in a new skill.

[@bluedeathbuny77]

I think people just want AFK methods with low exp rates, so they can progress their account while doing other things. Working, hanging with family, taking care of children etc. I think most things come from the age of the player base now and the responsibilities for most at that age. What time they have to actually sit down and play. They then want to use that valuable time to Boss, do slayer, quest etc. Things that you can't do 99% of the time while having real life responsibilities. Would I rather get 50k exp an hour over 10k exp an hour? Absolutely I would, However if the 50k exp an hour requires full attention for that rate. I'd rather use the time that I can actively play the game doing my favorite skill/ quest/ boss etc. I think I have some opposite opinions than you do, I think dividing methods is best. Low exp rate, low intensity, low reward or no reward. medium exp, medium intensity some reward. High exp, high intensity with rewards. Fishing is a good example of this. Between slow catch rate options, but you are far more able to afk with low exp rates. you can do barb fishing with no rewards(besides exp) but good exp rates , you can do temp with lower rates, but better rewards but you're more active.

[@Explosivepoo]

You are completely right. played alot back in the days and never was closed to maxing pve skills but i can't even imagine runescape as a complete afk game. theres a reason why osrs exist and thats the grind. if the grind can be completed without effort you mightaswell play cookie clicker.

[@foxlery]

Is your primary complaint regarding forestry that the exp/effort ratio isn't what it should be? You mention your dislike of it frequently, but which aspects if not just the exp/effort. You mention adding unlocks/log slots to things like mlm and blast mine, but isn't that what forestry did for woodcutting? What about other mini-gamescape type content? Gotr, which you seems to like, giants foundry, and your thoughts on the hunters guild on the way?

[@heboxjonge]

i voted yes for forestry originally cus the idea sounded cool, would just add a little extra to woodcutting. but we all know that that didnt happen. all other content you listed is fine by me. my main issue with forestry is that its just not what was described in the blog. if the main reward from the events was the bark to just buy a (good designed) 2h axe and some other things to speed up normal woodcutting + the new tree mechanics it would be a very good update. but it turned out that the events are the main attraction cus you get over half you xp/h from it when chopping most trees. and then im not even talking about the execution of the whole update that is STILL going on 4 months later

[@coke614]

My biggest gripe is that for high end speed run content you NEED the high skilling requirements to run those raids. The only raid that doesn’t have that is TOB and then toa you need 85 mining which isn’t that bad, but for cox 95 thieving and wc is a requirement. Now I have all but thieving done, but I do dislike having to train agility and thieving and mining to max just to get the perks. I know I don’t have to, but at late game it feels kind of needed. Now I can afk stars while I play a different account which is nice, but before that it was mlm which isn’t afk. I do do VM sometimes but sometimes I need something fully afk.

[@heboxjonge]

yeah i can see that but do you think removing those reqs from the content would be a valid option? it doesnt take away from the skill needed to complete those rooms, just makes it a little bit more consistent. or maybe they can add another way of being more effective at those rooms with something raid related.

[@Silly_Rum]

What about mysterious paydirt for mlm that you can trade Percy for either say 10 nugs or maybe 3000 xp? Let us unlock that through nug payment like the upstairs. Similar how you can unlock stuff from camdozal

[@heboxjonge]

would rather see actual changes to mlm itself as its rather stale. this would just buff xp for the sake of higher xp/h. maybe both can happen tho

[@Silly_Rum]

@@heboxjonge fair. Maybe a whole rework? Its pretty crap

[@Its_Me_Nathan666]

yee brozzer we in da bin

[@R_T_D]

I hope Sailing is click intensive and no AFK :)))

[@ExoticLlama]

The suggestion about potions in COX requiring more resources at lower levels is similar to how RS3 added "improved" recipes to potions in the expansion to 120 Herblore I also completely agree with your thoughts on the Max cape at the end. A few years ago, the RS3 comp cape was changed to be equal in stats with the Max cape, making it purely cosmetic. I think that its fine to have long-term goals and rewards for people that accomplish them, and really disliked the change, as it was done purely to accommodate people that want to put in minimal effort to max and then only focus on pvming. The game is more than pvm, and once you have something like Golden Reaper accomplished (equivalent of greened Bosses tab in collection log), one might realize that there's a lot more to do in the beautiful game we play.

[@Shaladir]

One thing might be, many skills are quite useless in themself if you get at high levels. Why for example smith and fletch if the best thing you get at max is rune armor or magic short bows, even if you are an iron. RS3 smithing armor shows how it could be done, or combine skills more to pvm.

[@Its_McKennon]

In the years it took me to max my uim, I heard many players complain about all skills, talking about how they hate slayer cause it's boring, or runecraft cause it's slow, or whatever. My response has always been "Well, nearly everyone who plays Old School Runescape is an adult. There aren't really that many kids coming home after class and booting up the game. If you are an adult, and you are choosing to spend your time doing something that you don't enjoy, complaining about it, why would you do that?" I did plenty of grinds I didn't love while maxing, but I also understood the benefit I would have from the cape, so I did it and never complained. I think people focus on the annoying/slow training of certain skills too much, and not the reward they are working toward.

[@heboxjonge]

slaves to the dopamine

[@ShanQXD]

Man just described a job

[@Just_Creepin]

Can we get this man the "Goggins" RSN please

[@Mo_Egan]

I watched Aaty’s vid and I think the problem is that only certain skills have afk methods. The average person will just have those times where they would like to afk something, but what if they run out of afkable skills that they need to train for their goal? The can either not log in because they can’t give their full attention, or they can afk train something that doesn’t align with their current goals, and that feels bad. edit: and those goals are usually for actual locked content, not QoL stuff like diaries imo

[@heboxjonge]

if you cant play you should log out yes

[@Nagatoobito]

Your Talking to a guy that clicked a tree/rock for 10k hours of his life @mo_egan you won’t get past his mental spectrum lol

[@highalchemy]

5:40 100% nail on the end. I hate how the tweet suggesting 20k/hr methods across the board complete kills all unique builds, whether ironmen or not it destroys so many unique options for players to experience, why bother collecting seeds for farming, to train herblore, when you can afk herblore for 20k/hr? The list of problems is endless like the possible ways to play this game are endless. You will receive a lot of backlash for sharing this stance publicly but I promise you there are thousands of people silently agreeing with you, but the loudest will always be the most negative.

[@leroyd6778]

I learnt alot about delaying gratification and performing tasks i find mundane and unappealing for future reward when playing rs2 as a kiddo

[@shancius1]

I think there is 1 bigger issue that is usually overlooked. A lot of people that are / want to play OSRS only have 1 or 2 hours active playtime each day, those people would prefer doing more fun pvm / skilling activities instead of being stuck at the iron ores to get their mining level. A good example is runecrafting, this used to be the most hated skill by far, but now a days, most people like doing it because of GOR.

[@derpalot]

if it is not fun, then play other games

[@frederikjensen9613]

I saw this person get X xp/hr but I can only get half of it, so now the skill is just bad for me. It's a bad way of looking on a skill, but it is really easy to get in this mindset.

[@raicoron3466]

Box you have to understand that I have 8 wives, 4 full time jobs, and 32 children. I only have 15 seconds a day of free time and I NEED to be able to queue up a 6 hour action that gives me 20k exp per hour. If you disagree you're clearly toxic, elitist, gatekeeper, girlboss that wants to keep ADULTS like me down! Just because I hate runescape and can't stand to be on the game for more than 10 minutes at a time doesn't mean I don't deserve max cape. I pay my $12.50 to jagex too, that means I get to vote and you better BELIEVE I'm voting YES to the new botting skill.

[@pausmth]

I was expecting to disagree with you, but really after listening to your thoughts at the end, I, nearly, completely agree. Honestly the freaking agility shortcuts that require some random diary are probably the most annoying... Good video! 👍

[@spakjoeXD]

I totally agree with main point here being that the game is CREATED to be a wild goose chase of unrelated pieces. If we make everything have a 20k/hour AFK method I dont think that it "cheapens" the game, it just makes it so that people in 5 years (or however long) are going to be maxed by doing... nothing.

[@chriscohen9559]

Haven't watched yet and I'm sure you're going to address it but I hate this mindset that skilling is seen as forced for stuff like diary rewards and clue steps. I understand it's nice to get an extra herb patch or have some monsters drop noted bones. However I've never seen that stuff as being required things to get that many players make such rewards out to be.

[@terjeandersen5447]

You can't first say that levelling mining/woodcutting for optimized PvM is completely optional and then 5 minutes later say that adding rewards that affect different skills is the worst thing in the world. Because gjetting those rewards would be completely optional, and it will only be relevant for optimal efficiency. Exactly like skilling is for raids.

[@heboxjonge]

actually, you have a good point here. that is a contradiction. but its not completely the same tho as those skilling buffs can have an annoying upkeep mechanic. and skill reqs for raids is just a 1 and done thing. also the raid mechanics dont change when you have a lower or higher mining level. just the speed of completing that room, meanwhile some skilling buff could change the method slightly. still good that you pointed it out, p much the only valid critique so far in the comments.

[@terjeandersen5447]

@@heboxjonge Yeah, true, it's not directly translatable - and sorry for being crass! It just bugged me in just the right way, I guess! Otherwise some good points overall in your video - just wanted to point that out!

[@Beastarro]

the philosophy of diaries locking pvm behind "high" skill requirements is to prevent that content from being suicide botted, which is why jagex is looking at adding more diary restrictions rather than taking them away

[@heboxjonge]

0 pvm content is locked behind diaries? bots are running 500 invo ToA with budget gear as we speak, do you actually think some skill reqs is stopping bots? half of the bots are hacked accounts too

[@energyjtww]

"We want a new skill" also same community, "we want to level the skill without playing the game"

[@chilwil07]

"we are gonna bash ppl who want low rate high afk methods" also same community "look at this person unhealthily spam click funny knight man for hours a day"

[@chilwil07]

rs players at age 40 with severe carpal tunnel be like

[@tsadrertewrt1439]

you ok buddy ? Take a break from the game or better yet find a one you enjoy@@chilwil07

[@apexbaines9014]

This is so true… the new skill is a total farce. Mining is boring yes and I train RC with tears of Guthix but that’s my choice and I know I’m never gunna mad unless I do something new.

[@Compieslation]

perhaps more afkable methods are added to make it more appealing for new players to stay around

[@AIIu_]

What's appealing about afk methods to a new player? Shouldn't we introduce actually fun methods?

[@rsPinge]

I totaly agree with everything you say except for the achievement diaries. I feel like you should be rewarded if you get those high lvl requirements, especially the elite ones. But i can also understand the argument behind locking things with high skill requirements are bad. But atm i feel like hard diaries have better rewards than elite diaries and that feel very weird and non-rewarding. Im currently going for achievement diary cape but its more for the flex than the actual rewards. My point is that i feel like elite diary rewards should be boosted in some way, feels like hard diarys are better than elites in some cases

[@weesh4010]

This is a hot take. I know that this is your personal feelings, but things change when you have other things that MUST take your time. having a low (very low) afk xp/hr method for all skills seems like it's not the worst idea i've ever heard. I achieved max whilst parenting 2 small children, it was a goal that I had before my first was born. from 2000 ttl lvl to 2277 took me 2 years. I had only been able to play they game for 1-2 hours when i had the chance to actually get on the pc/ mobile. I watched my friends progress in pvm, leaving me in the dust as I progressed towards my goal. If i had a meathod of afking when my full attention to my family wasn't needed I would have definitely taken it. Sure, it wouldn't have sped my progress up very much (if the meathods were low xp/hr) but I would have taken anything. For the time I was focused on maxing, alot of my friends had moved onto another games or stopped playing for another reason aswell. In hindsight, it would have been nice to spend the time that i had where in i could actually play the game to progress in other aspects too. You can think that I'm complaining about being a parent, but I am not. I completed my goal. I'm just saying that i'm sure that it wouldn't have taste less sweet if i could have knocked 100 hours of in game time to max. Just because you have one goal that you're working towards, doesn't mean that there aren't other things that you want to do after. Time is a precious thing. I could be in left field, but I'm sure that I am not alone. people come from all walks of life, and not everyone's goals totally align. I think that if things can be implemented in a way that no one feels their effort has been devalued, what's the harm?

[@chukarec]

ALL THE CHADS WHO BOT SKILLING LOVE SKILLING

[@DragonOnline100]

If people made money skilling, they might feel more motivated to do it. Although I agree with your reasoning, one of the biggest issues with training skills to the end game is that the entire mid game is made up of pointlessness just to get to the end game! Give it some value! Osrs needs invention!

[@J__Lucas]

Something that also is a factor is how useless skills have gotten over time. You used to be able to atleast get resources sorta-quick through skilling, now for 90% of resources you're incentivized to PVM. You used to be able to chop trees and make some decent gp on the way there, but now all you get from it is exp. There's no secondary incentive anymore.

[@SupThereBoi]

Everybody wanna be a max caper, but don't nobody wanna click no stupid ass rocks.

[@kasperfurbo668]

Love these rambles. Keep them coming!

[@stooge389]

I *kinda* agree about passive methods, but on the whole I disagree. As long as any method that's AFK and gives ~20k xp/hr isn't more profitable than, say cutting Magic Logs at 99 wc (~150k-200k gp per hour max) it's not going to fundamentally alter the game. At 20k xp/hr, any given skill takes around 651 hours to complete. There are 23 skills. At that rate, it will take a player around 14,973 hours to max their account. I've been playing for 20 years, and that's 3x as much as I've played in all those years.

[@cidtasakaal4771]

I would have to agree with this video completely. I see a lot of people complaining about QOL issues when it comes to AFK skilling methods. As someone who has played Ironman for a very long time, we no longer have those pedantic methods like charter ships, buckets of sand, etc... I think players need to understand that it's okay to not have something leveled. After years of playing my FM level is still just 83. I hate WT and I hate burning logs. I have 2.1k total level. There is no need for me to go higher, so I won't. It's okay to do the bare minimum requirement and just never touch it again. I hit 86 con and it hasn't leveled since I hit it. I don't like construction. I have all the bits and bobs in my house, that's good enough for me. Previously my biggest gripe was how long it took to get through slayer to unlock PVM, but this was my personal issue as an iron. Now end-game is no longer gated by slayer so it's been resolved. I would never vote no against new methods because they made things easier, but seeing where the game was and seeing where it is now. The devs have made INCREDIBLE leaps and ingenious solutions to fixing major issues with the core loop of the game for irons, and normal accounts. Sand grind is a blessing from heaven by comparison. Personally I think all non-buyable skills should have 2 methods. An interactive minigame method and the normal method. Virtually all skills have this now and that's all they really need. What I want is more Minigames like Volcanic Mine, and Foundry. I would love more interactive middle grounds between the tickmanip methods and the AFK methods. Give me more Hallowed Sepulcher. I would eat a skilling raid up like candy. I don't want to see more AFK methods because in reality it doesn't add anything to the game.

[@PieZR0k]

Sounds like they wanna play RS3

[@RihardM]

if jagex will release osrs themed cookie clicker where people can afk in it could solve something i bet

[@ironrazor7244]

Melvor Idle is what you are looking for pretty fun honestly

[@TheCpadron19]

I think the diaries are fine where they're at. If anything, they need to rework the Skilling level unlocks. For example, no one cares about being able to smith a full set of rune armor at 99 smithing.

[@heboxjonge]

why does there always need to be a reward at the end of a skill. whats wrong with level up a skill you like? and if you dont you just leave that one for now

[@BobSmith-vu3zm]

I think you got very close to saying the more technical explanation: runescape is an anticipation game. We all think of dopamine as level up = dopamine, but what's the purpose of that if you have no motivation to level up in the first place? And as it turns out, the primary of purpose is anticipation. Indeed, you get way more dopamine over the course of wanting/anticipating/working towards a reward than the during the 10 minute bliss when you actually get that reward. Adding in all those intricacies enhances that anticipation, so does ironman mode, and so does randomness. Albeit too much anticipation may damage the players relationship with the game, but that's a different conversation. By streamlining minigames, making AFK methods, you're simply decreasing the anticipation the game relies on to get you to play it. I do think you're missing the logic that people just naturally become more invested in something the more time they put into it (which runescape asks a LOT of), and therefore will have stronger opinions. I think it's a good thing people "want" to play the game, but a bad thing when the "want" becomes a "need". And again it goes back to anticipation. Too much anticipation can turn the "want" into a "need", so it's either: 1) Making a ton of complexities so peoples' anticipation isn't shifted to just one thing (sort of like the MLM idea) 2) Explicitly remove some part of what's causing the "need" (like skilling barriers you briefly mentioned) 3) Let them get the "need" faster (which, like the AFK methods you talked about, isn't a real solution) 4) What I think is the best solution: make content where people like the content for what it is, rather than the purpose it serves of working towards a reward. Runescape requires a lot time, so I think 1000s of hours in there's no way to anticipate how people will will play, so the best thing is to just make sure people maintain a healthy relationship with the game.