The Best Fitness Test? 20 Minute FTP Vs Ramp | Cycling Training For Triathlon

[@mattnugy]

Am I the only one thinking: Aren't you supposed to stay seated during these tests?

[@MarkBernardinis]

I thought the same

[@SethPVideos]

Definitely meant to stay seated in the ramp test

[@chrisoman87]

And they did it in Zwift which says explicitly on the screen STAY SEATED lol

[@berkd557]

I mean the test is all about your highest output possible so I don’t believe it matters how you get there

[@christosandreev6392]

You're absolutely right. Standing you can produce more power than sitting and as a result sabotage your ramp test. Stay seated people.

[@Scootaholic]

I did a ramp and FTP test recently + diagnosed functional threshold in a lab with spiro and lactate. I resulted in 250 W in the lab. On the FTP Test i got 260 W and on the Ramp 240 W. In a race recently I also did an hour effort of 257 W. So you can see that the FTP value, which is equivalent to the 1 hour max. effort does not mean, that this is your functional threshold by lab test. Also it really depends on how you feel that day, when you do ramp or FTP, while in the lab you have all the data you need to do it correctly. But I think it gives a rough estimation. BTW, I hated all three tests :)

[@FrekeOne]

Great info thanks!

[@michael1]

Bear in mind that your performance is the best metric for your performance, not a lab test. The lab isn't giving you a more accurate or scientific FTP than riding for an hour did. These 'thresholds' are an abstract idea too - our bodies don't have thresholds. It's a continuum. As you note though your performance varies from day to day, test to test. Your figures are pretty much spot on. Perhaps because (unlike many) you can actually ride for an hour at an intense pace. Most of the FTP tests exist because people don't want to ride hard for an hour, and when FTP got popular it turned out most cyclists didn't want to ride 20 minutes hard either - which raises questions why they want to know what their FTP is.

[@berchrker]

great effort, do it again, this time invite Hank from GCN do to ALL the test you can find outdoors and then again indoors, just because we love to see him suffer, while doing that, you could look into critical power. for example sufferfest's FULL FRONTAL 4dp (TM) critical power test, compared to the already done tests. it would be a great colab, and im sure Neal Henderson of sufferfest would bring you some science for the suffering :)

[@Powerhamsi]

This is what we need!

[@evanmacdougall9715]

THIS. Came here to mention the 4dp test and saw this comment. Definitely need to include this AND a good discussion from Neal Henderson who is usually more than happy to discuss all the nitty gritty differences between all the tests.

[@ella46rrj86]

I also thought the content was educational, interesting but had a glaring gap by not mentioning Sufferfest's 4dp or Half Monty (a slightly more sophisticated ramp test). Please include in the follow up on critical power.

[@GavinHarte]

I really like the ramp test as I can do it once a month without it taking too much out of me to get a gauge for where I’m going with my training. It gives me an easily repeatable way of checking on improvement and as it is about going higher with no theoretical limit it’s easier to get pushing for more. On a traditional FTP test I have a feeling I know what I should be aiming for and try to get that rather than going for the highest 20 min average possible.

[@mauriciorosales1259]

Ramp test - always because it’s so repeatable, but I have done 20 min tests and feel that for ‘me’ the numbers are close. I can find many reasons to skip my 20 min tests but have never skipped a scheduled ramp test.😀 Thanks to both of you for suffering for us!

[@ultrarunningdan]

Shout out to the cat at 14:27 🐈‍⬛👊

[@evanmacdougall9715]

Even tho these tests are generally "good enough" for most amateurs and general cycling enthusiasts, the biggest problem is that different rider types perform differently in different types of FTP tests. As Dr Stephen Faulkner mentioned in the video, a ramp test assumes everyone ftp is 75% of their MAP. But that is not the case. So for riders with strong MAP abilities, a ramp test will overestimate their FTP. While for riders that are more time trialists or climbers with strong sustained power but lower MAP abilities, a ramp test may underestimate their FTP. And with a 20 minute (or even a 60 minute) FTP test, a sprinter or track pursuiter specialist who can hit amazing short duration power numbers can have difficulty holding a sustained effort and may have their FTP underestimated. And when you estimate your training zones based on these FTP values you can have significant issues. A rider whose FTP is underestimated will feel their workouts are too easy and can see their performance stagnate or even decrease. While a rider whose FTP is overestimated may struggle to hit their targets in their workouts and either burnout or be in danger of injury. On top of that, trying to calculate your training zones based on your FTP is also fraught with issues because as Stephen mentioned, not every rider has the exact same rider profile with the exact same percentage proportions between their power numbers. A sprinter or pursuiter may have an FTP that is 40 or 50% of their MAP ability, while a climber may have an FTP that is 85% of their MAP ability. Anyway, this is a can of worms because of the known flaws between these and other FTP tests. And regardless, these tests are generally "good enough" for most amateurs and general cycling enthusiasts. But for anyone intending to do any serious racing, a more nuanced power testing system is used and required.

[@kakarot2430]

How about using lthr ?

[@BenjaminWasHere]

Interesting clear. Can you point me towards anything online that would preload your points, expand and integrate them with these other ftp measures seen broadly about, producing another clean explanation of a more accurately aligned representation of an athlete's fitness level?

[@diegoprada5112]

I don't think the 20' test underestimates the FTP of a sprinter or track pursuiter who has difficulting holding a sustained effort, because FTP is about your ability to sustain efforts. In other words, being able to generate 1500 watts for 10 seconds does not mean you have a high FTP.

[@angry_tardigrade]

A 60-min FTP test will not underestimate a sprinter's 60-min FTP. Your argument holds no water.

[@michael1]

If you have 'difficulty holding a sustained effort' then your FTP is low. By definition. Note that FTP is really unrelated to sprint power - you shouldn't be using FTP to give you the intensity for sprints. If zwift does that then it's broken. No one doing 'serious racing' is using a more nuanced power testing system. If you race then your performance is the best measure of your performance.

[@OUTDOORS55]

The problem with the 20min test is pacing. Over shoot the initial pacing (even by a small amount) and you wont get accurate numbers. Undershoot and same problem. 20 minutes is a LONG time to try and guess what you can or cant do. Not to mention the trainer vs real road aspect. 300 watts on the trainer feels like death. 300 watts on the road feels easy. Huge mental component there that can easily cause bad numbers on the 20 minute trainer test. Just some thoughts..

[@pjbeattie1]

If its your first test then the “guess” may be hard. But once you’ve ridden on Zwift a bit and done a prior FTP test you should have a good gauge on where to start. On my first sets of 20min tests I followed some bud’s advice and went in a little low that felt hard but knowing I could finish. Then after 5 min I bumped up 5-10 watts. After 10min I still felt good so bumped up again. After 15 min I tried to push harder for the last 5 but just couldn’t. But that was the very first attempt. Now I know pretty much within 5-10% of where my numbers should be so I just start off at a number that is above my previous FTP average (before the 95% is applied) and try like hell to not only hold it but to slowly increase the number by 1 or 2 every 5 min. This is not fun but brings every ounce of effort out of me and after my training FTP feels just right. I can complete almost all training plans but sometimes have to knock the number down on certain days or on certain intervals but that is rare.

[@trepidati0n533]

Even if you pace the 20 minutes perfectly....the 95% number isn't an exact number...people can range from 88% to 97% which is massive.

[@pjbeattie1]

Ya of course, none of this is EXACT and only a tool for gauging improvement (or lack of) over time. There is no “number” that is somehow exact as a persons power changes daily with differentials in sleep, training load, recovery, fuel, stress etc. The true test is to go race and see if you can beat others. FTP is only a tool for training.

[@ab0s3r]

if there is such a huge difference between indoor and outdoor numbers for you, i would check my power numbers

[@bentleyisaiah428]

you all prolly dont care at all but does someone know of a tool to get back into an Instagram account?? I stupidly lost my password. I would love any tips you can give me

[@Evan-nk6yq]

I used to only take ramp tests, and zwift said my ftp was 336, then I decided to take a 20 min test and got 295. 295 seems way more accurate, and it was a brutal output. 40 watts is a huge difference, and this was even the Zwift ones

[@PavelMachyniak]

Off season/winter ramp test, during season 20 min test for me.

[@marcleber3702]

I personally really like the full frontal. True, it's a longer test, but there's less calculation in the end and I personally believe that it more accurately represents a true FTP.

[@marcydoodle]

I use the ramp solely because it better suits my training style (and makes me feel better), but it's severely off. Zwift calculated my FTP at 351 via ramp and 321 via a 20-minute test. My actual 60 minute all out testing was 305. I come from powerlifting and my power drops hard after about 40 minutes of continued effort. I assume most of the difference is due to inexperience and bad pacing, but even in a race setting, I can't maintain 351 over an hour.

[@robertkenney4336]

That was very informative. I think there is room for both. Ramp to find you limit and the FTP to what you can maintain. I will try the ramp test.

[@tridimita]

I've compares these two tests a couple of times having a 10/15watts difference (higher on ramp test). I find 20' test much more accurate taking into account my training numbers...

[@trepidati0n533]

Problem is the 20 minute test isn't great either...people can range from 90% to 97% which is huge. Honestly, if you don't do a follow up test the next day at your FTP and do at least 30 minutes w/o feeling like dying you probably overestimated there as well.

[@thehandtoolschool]

The one thing about the 20 minute test is it also teaches you about the mental aspect of endurance racing. Builds grit. One might say that is more important than the time savings of the ramp test. Doesn't mean I like the FTP test but that's how I'm rationalizing it anyway.

[@cyclingaddict7187]

I find that at the end of a race, if you have pushed hard enough, it will increase your FTP depending on how you have performed during the race. This, I find, is a lot more accurate because it is in race conditions and that’s where you push yourself the most.

[@jamiegracie2458]

Problem is you don't do a steady all out effort in a race, there's a lot more surges happening. I did a race a week before my last FTP test which got me a 2W higher FTP. The test one week later put another 10W on top of that.

[@GavinHarte]

If you’re able to race at your FTP number I’d say you’ve done the test wrong. Normally you race as a % of your FTP, not at or above it. Exception is obviously for a race shorter than 1 hour you should be able to push harder which might result in a higher 20min average.

[@neil0041]

I always look at my average power over an hour race as well. Unless there is loads of hills etc making uneven power it's far more accurate than using 20 mins and estimating

[@SpeedBoosted911]

I want to raise 2 important questions!: 1)Cadence, it affects your HR at same Power. Month ago i did ramp at 70 cadence and got 290FTP, yesterday i did at 90 cadence and got 225FTP (my HR raised sooner and got into Z5 at lower wattage, and it shut legs down). So - at what cadence do you do it? And what difference you saw in results at different cadence? 2)Does indoor Ramp Test affected by a well ventilated room versus room with 3 days windows shut ? Does it lower VO2max value if 3 days windows weren't opened?

[@jamesbyrne181]

Aren't u supposed to stay seated during FTP tests?

[@markthrelfall3577]

Yeah you shouldn’t do big stints out of saddle. But small sections to relieve your bum won’t impact the results

[@mauriciorosales1259]

I think you get in and out ( to relieved discomfort) but when you are close to the end (last 3 ramps maybe) your reading will be more accurate if you stay in the saddle

[@cyclecoachcyclecoachcom8071]

It's perfectly fine to stand during the ramp and 20-min tests. They're both designed to ascertain the maximum power you can maintain over the durations tested, and this can be done in any way (high cadence/low cadence, seated or standing, etc). The main issue with standing during the tests is that of balance and stability -- it'd be pretty grim if you toppled the bike over mid-test.

[@Second247]

@@cyclecoachcyclecoachcom8071 Zwift and Trainerroad recommend (or insist) that you remain seated during 1min ramp test to get proper FTP. I don't understand why it should matter, but that is their line. Perhaps some beginners who have not developed proper muscular endurace (or their bikefit is bad) can get huge boost in numbers if they stand up.

[@cyclecoachcyclecoachcom8071]

@@Second247 There's no physiological reason why you can't stand. You might be able to generate more power momentarily while standing but that's fine. The ramp test is designed so that you measure aerobic and non-aerobic power. If it wasn't you'd have to test in a different way (because power at the end of the ramp test - the MAP is greater than the minimum power required to elicit VO2max. Additionally, as I'm the developer of the idea that a ramp test can be used to estimate FTP (or 60-mins power) and the 75% that is used, I can tell you that my original work I did we gave "strong vocal encouragement" to ensure that people gave as much as possible however it was achieved.

[@TheChangpion]

Perfectly timed. I’m sure I need to another test in the next week or two. I think I’ll be going with the ramp test.

[@dazzakelly2024]

Ive done the Ramp test..324w then Crit City race, about 22 mins and average power was 324w! So bang on I guess.

[@lorenzmeier2228]

well not really, the ramp test should give you your best 60min power, the power you did in the crit was your best 20min power

[@fa1coner]

Your 20 minute power you multiply by 0.95 to get your ftp so in that case 324x.095= 308w. Was 324 the result given for your ftp by the ramp test or your average the last minute?

[@pal_lokomotivet2679]

@@fa1coner it must be the given. If he burned of at 324 his ftp would be in the low 200's

[@Second247]

@@pal_lokomotivet2679 But his 20min power wouldn't be over 300 if his actual FTP would be low 200. Overall with crit racing the thing is that pace isn't steady state power, but it fluxuates (even in Zwift), so his FTP is probably closer to his crit race than official .95% value.

[@pal_lokomotivet2679]

@@Second247 yes thats my point. it cant be low 200s. i just pointed ut it couldnt be the last min watts from the ramp test.

[@danielmacdonald4005]

I think people prefer the ramp test because they struggle at holding power for 20 minutes. If that's the case, it's also true that a ftp number is only accurate for the amount of time you reach in the test. What your legs can do for 20 minutes might be significantly more than what they can do for 1 hour or more.

[@pal_lokomotivet2679]

Thats why you multiply by 0.95. Its still not correct for me but for a great mass of people I guess it is since they made this a standard test. I belive the main reason why people prefer the ramp is that it helps with the pacing. This makes the test more reliable for comparing later

[@ianmoore3785]

It's also why you shouldn't "cheat" and suddenly go all in at the end. You're supposed to be on or around your limit the entire time. If you wait until the last 5mins and then go nuts, there is every chance you skew your results. If you maintain the same effort, maybe increase in short steps, throughout the test it is far more likely this is what you can maintain for long periods.

[@NinjaElephant]

I did a couple of both tests in close proximity of each other and found them pretty accurate to the Watt in my case. I love doing the ramp test for knowing my FTP and the 20 min for the Training effect if I feel like it. I take a 20 min climb to do so, either IRL or epic reverse in Zwift. Also I have a different (lower) FTP in TT Position and on flats. So close to racing season I do it the way I race it.

[@mcorbett01]

What a useful video. I’ve tried the 20min test on a Wattbike and both tests in Zwift. Definitely prefer the ramp test. Well done to both Mark and Heather for suffering for our benefit 😁👍🏻

[@heatherfell_oly]

Thank you Malcolm, I think I'm with you.

[@atlosass]

This is a great video on a topic I've long wondered about. Having done both tests many times, it always feels that they are testing two different things, yet the numbers are in the same ballpark. I think this calls for more GTN research!

[@heatherfell_oly]

Think we might need some guinea pigs, not sure how many more tests my legs can handle.

[@cyclecoachcyclecoachcom8071]

@@heatherfell_oly @anthony lo sasso. Heather, I wish you and Mark had asked me about this. I did the original work on this establishing how ramp (MAP) power estimates 60-minute power. I'd be happy to discuss with you. Anthony, they're actually measuring the same thing from a slightly different perspective. If you think of the 20-min test as a proxy for lactate threshold (LT) or critical power (CP) or maximal lactate steady state (MLSS) (all slightly different things) and you think of the MAP power as a proxy for VO2max. VO2max is the maximal amount of oxygen that can be utilised by the body. LT/CP/MLSS is the maximal amount of work that can be done for about an hour (LT is slightly different so what i've written is slightly wrong, but the convo would go off topic too much). VO2max sets the upper limit to aerobic energy production (LT/CP/MLSS) and humans tend to operate at similar % of VO2max (there is variance). The MAP includes some anaerobic energy as well. Hope that helps?

[@TheDanl80]

Ramp test, due to the repeatability from test to test to remove as many factor as possible that may affect the results.

[@timtaylor9590]

important note: if youre a tt rider do the tests in your riding position not upright or your training will be too hard based on an inflated number.

[@lifeisabeautifulride]

Loved the video! Thank you so much for suffering for us! I'm new to smart trainers and Zwift, so now I know which test I will be doing! Thank you!!! ❤

[@nickc4716]

The heat from those studio lights have got be worth 15 watts, at least.

[@oldanslo]

Modern LED lights are a lot more efficient and put out a lot less heat than traditional incandescent lighting.

[@michael1]

@@oldanslo Nonsense. My ftp is now 6 w/kg IF IT WERE DARK. Just a pity all the grand tours are during the day, outdoors, in the summer - otherwise I'd win every one.

[@mithral999]

I used the ramp test the first time I tested since I had no idea what I could aim for then did the 20 min a few days later. Going in blind to the FTP test I would have just gone too hard

[@mrnobody9821]

Ramp test and verify on a 20 minute free ride segment in any of the zwift worlds. Alpe du zwift is an easy one to benchmark against because of the average incline and elevation gain

[@clarklowe5632]

As a sprinter I get a much higher number on the ramp test. But is best for short sprint workouts. But longer repeats the 20 min is closer to what I can do.

[@teplak4805]

I've only done a ramp test so far. Haven't found the courage for a 20 min test 😅

[@chrisoman87]

My problem is it's like a massive Tempo workout so it takes a while to recover from it so it kinda screws up your training as opposed to a ramp test its a hell but much more anaerobic so you can recover from it easier

[@suttonfarms2343]

Just love the personalities and info, keep it up! :)

[@stephenhandel5565]

Would be interesting to see a live on screen results version of your testing next time

[@neillloyd67]

My FTP has been adjusted on Zwift courtesy of riding on Alpes du Zwift. My guess is i am a stronger climber which is why that happens but intrigued as to how riding up Alpes compares as an FTP test. In my own case i come in just under an hour so that is convenient

[@delkim3691]

my early spring (now) and autumn FTP is almost identical, but early spring RAMP is always around 20 w lower due missing +Z5 intervals through winter base/tempo/SS training

[@mjthecap]

take we take a moment to appreciate the perfect door opening skill by his cat at 14:27 ?

[@ssbagley]

And this is why I do both tests close togwther. A Ramp Test leans more towards a different system and is essentially measuring your VO2, not Threshold. From the 2 results you'll know if there's room to grow your threshold power.

[@peterlessard7066]

I liked the video. There is one more test you need to do, and that is the 1 hour test at the wattage of the ramp or FTP test. It probably should be done at least once a season to compare numbers. I find fluids or fueling becomes more of an issue when doing an 1 hour test on the trainer. Just a side note. Mark what was the room temperature for the FTP test? You barely broke a sweat.

[@gwhite7011]

I've done many 20 minute tests and quite a few ramp tests now. My FTP derived from the ramp test is about 30 watts lower than from 20 minute test but I use the lower figure to avoid burying myself in training. IMO ramp test is closer to 60 minute power

[@add1cted2l3arning]

GREAT EFFORT ON THE 20’ HEATHER 💣

[@baizhank]

Great work! Greetings from Kazakhstan!

[@FunkyFaulc]

As with using the same scale or same power meter consistently ... it is the same with FTP testing. Just use the same method so you can track improvements over time. The only time I'd be concerned about the FTP being off is if your endurance rides start feeling like an RPE of 5-6 instead of 3-4.

[@juanmanuelespil2896]

triathletes should do tests on tt position?

[@JimPurvis0]

All aboard the pain train! Toot toot!!! Great content Heather and Mark!

[@sandywatson1082]

great comparison, now compare your results with sufferfeast options which would be very interesting

[@AlexRepin]

I train with TrainerRoad and their test of choice is ramp test. For me, it seems like it's overestimating my FTP a bit. For example, the last time I tested I went from 199 to 222, and while endurance, tempo, sweet spot and over-under workouts are bearable, 3min@120%FTP VO2Max intervals seem a bit too tough, so I have to dial intensity down in order to complete the workout. It evens out in a week or two, though.

[@gwhite7011]

Try 20 minute test

[@SoupCannot]

Both tests have their place of course; but ramp test is better for estimating VO2max-power. If you want an estimate of FTP, Heather's results show that the ramp test will be pretty limited -- it estimated that her FTP (which should be power for 1hr) as higher than the power she actually maintained for 20 minutes! Conclusion: do both tests, and the result will help you decide whether you could benefit more from work on your threshold power or your VO2max power. :-)

[@TheRealBancroft]

Great efforts there, looks like it hurt! I find doing a 20min effect during a Zwift crit race to be the least mental effort 😀 as the racing is so immersive 🏊‍♂️ 🚴🏻‍♂️ 🏃‍♂️

[@TheRealBancroft]

*effort

[@jbages23cons69]

@@TheRealBancroft the same happened to me, i did a 30 min race on Zwift and it told me I had a new FTP, the race action was a great distraction

[@KG780c]

You should try the time trials too. Especially Zwift Time Trial Tuesday Bologna. Starts out nice but gets really nasty and allows you to really push your limits.

[@mudgie069]

I don't feel quite so bad with my 240 watt ramp test after watching this, good effort :)

[@roadglide]

Consistency is paramount. Pick the test that you like best as you will do it. Both are effective measurements.

[@TheKevinHarris]

I've done both and get very similar results, within 2 or 3 watts.

[@anonym9713]

If my ramp test result is significant higher than the 20 min test, do i have to do more SST?

[@zac1672]

Very good efforts. Both quality results

[@leonardfairground5937]

Very interesting as my figures were almost identical to Heather’s, but using the higher ramp test threshold in training programmes, I struggled to finish the harder workouts and had to lower the FTP.

[@KG780c]

I find the same thing but keep in mind inherent fatigue. When you do the test it is usually under somewhat ideal condition usually at the end of your last recovery week of your mesocycle if following periodization training. When doing intensive workout say on a Tuesday after one recovery day Monday after doing a 15 mile LSD run on Sunday and a 4 hour bike at zone 3 70% of FTP on Saturday. Failure on Tuesday workout is to be expected.

[@henryshih6790]

ramp or 20 min test? seems like people just go by whichever gives the higher number

[@thelmaviaduct]

Most will, but not all.

[@cabbieman]

How about doing the same tests in a controlled environment with all the gear then compare the results to see how accurate the zwift/similar tests are.

[@stefjanssen56]

With a ramp test i end up at 90% of the 20' test, talking about diesels

[@razorree]

what about doing 5 mins all out effort (and then 10 mins rest) before 20 mins effort ? that's part of the protocol as well ....

[@xiaoliuwu8539]

I have only done ramp test. From experience, it seems that I have to withhold a tiny bit(not doing the very “last” interval) when I perform the test. Otherwise, the ftp TrainerRoad calculates is just a little too high and I will fail my workouts. As mentioned in the video, the ramp assumes that ftp is some fixed formula of the watt of the last interval. This is a big assumption.

[@jackatmensacosacoaching]

In the end an FTP test should not be done to achieve 'bragging rights' but should give you a number you can use to set up interval workouts in a controlled environment, i.e. turbo training. In the 'real world' and FTP might help you slightly not to burn out during a race but is of limited value if the terrain is quite undulating or if other environmental disruptions (wind etc) exist. However, doing a similar test at moderate frequent intervals in a controlled environment can show your fitness trend (upwards or ..... downwards). Riding a specific zwift (or other) route as a time trial every so often might actually do the same.

[@wemorgan]

Indeed. What matters more than FTP is your power duration curve.

[@lukemarlow2]

Think what he is saying. Some people can’t hit 400 plus numbers at the end of the ramp test. Well if they are similar ftp of 350 of course they could hit them numbers. If they are 350 ftp then they wouldn’t need to hit them numbers. It’s all relative. Also, stay seated!

[@ltrtg13]

Have considered doing the Sufferfest's 4DP test?

[@wemorgan]

This is a far superior method as it collects multiple datapoints along your power duration curve.

[@colinmoore2926]

Probably not while zwift are a channel sponsor...

[@markthrelfall3577]

We can do the sufferfest test, we don’t have to stay with what is on Zwift. It is one we will explore for the future

[@wemorgan]

@@markthrelfall3577 I hope you can make a video in the future that opens up the understanding of the power duration curve and what tests like the 4DP aim to achieve. With a valid power duration curve you can also use it as a great race prediction too, since you only need to know expected duration, so course elevation profile becomes less relevant. TrainingPeak WKO and Mywindsock have a range of interesting tools. Related to this, there are more updates to the Stryd foot since your last review that cover much of this too. Keep up the great work at GTN!

[@cyclecoachcyclecoachcom8071]

@@wemorgan For clarity the ramp test also collects multiple data points (essentially FTP/CP/MLSS and W'/FRC and MAP/VO2max). All you have to do is a second test with the ramp/MAP (on a different day) of 20-mins to help establish these points. 4DP doesn't actually ascertain a power duration curve it just collects data a a variety of time points.

[@pal_lokomotivet2679]

Both testes are pretty bad at finding the threshold. This is the physiological relevant value in the area ftp is supposed to be and the significant value when it comes to zones and training. Are you over or under the point where you are accumulating lactate. With that said I would say the short ftp tests is more like a high score and most useful at finding improvements at exactly a FTP test kind of bike ride. Like a 10 km tt or something like that. With this in mind i would say the ramp test is superior because it helps you control the pacing. This will lead to a more accurate and comparable result for time to time.

[@maxjoukov]

Dr Skiba rules! CP and W'

[@wemorgan]

FTP is not your 1hr average power. TrainingPeaks WKO and TrainerRoad give a good explanation of what it is. Maybe GCN and GTN can make a video explaining the science and maths involved.

[@markthrelfall3577]

You’re absolutely right. Typically between 30-70mins TTE. 60 is often referred to as its in line with the vast majority. But yes, if you want to delve into the science and really rip the data apart you can. But for many, they just want a quick answer

[@Nikyadair18]

As a triathlete, should you do it on aerobars ??? People tell me I should. And my watts difference was about 20w

[@markthrelfall3577]

I tend to advise differently for different times in the season. If you’re in the midst of the winter, doing most of your training on the road bike - then test on the road bike so your zones are relevant to how you train. But as you get closer to racing, it’s best to try and do the test in the aero bars. Obviously it’s worth noting that it often drops when in the aero bars

[@robertkelly28]

Fair play guys. Nice one

[@onlyfoolriding8223]

If you are strong anaerobically, the ramp test could give you a result that is 10-20 watts higher, which results in training at a much higher number. You may burn out. Be careful.

[@colin47]

Great video! I am like Heather in that my ramp test is about 5% higher. I think the way to test the FTP test is workouts. If one can't finish workouts then the FTP is too high (I fail some long interval near FTP workouts when I use the FTP from a ramp test). If the workouts are too easy, the FTP is too low. Don't be scared to manually adjust your FTP a few percent. I usually wait until I fail a couple workouts before I adjust. I rarely find its too low before a new test because the test is a best effort.

[@MrRoyGS]

I originally did my first ever 20min FTP test out on an open flat country road with almost no traffic and got an FTP of 201W. Almost 6 years later I did an indoor 20min FTP test on Zwift and got an FTP of 207W. I waited 3 days and did a ramp test and that came out to 230W FTP. Based on the structured workouts on Zwift with an FTP of 201W, the workouts did not feel challenging enough. I feel now with the FTP of 230W the workouts are just right and challenging enough. On a side note, I don't think I went hard enough on the 20min FTP test indoor based on my average and max heart rate.

[@KG780c]

You should try wearing a head/sweat band as it will keep sweat out of your eyes.

[@flava1981]

And bike!

[@mrbsmakerspace5519]

Awesome thanks great to see and learn!

[@bripayton3723]

I've always done mine in the TT position

[@thenri1]

Great vid. Obviously ramp test for lazy me!,

[@patbroadbent6816]

I'm very interested in to see what the CP test involves, I us golden cheetah to analyse my rides and that automatically calculates your CP but I've always been a little wary of the result, so I normally calculate FTP with the 20 minute power ( I'm going to try a famp test soon, so I can also check max heart rate values). Keep up the great content

[@cyclecoachcyclecoachcom8071]

Depending on the CP test protocol (because these differ as well), you test over a selection of durations such as 1-min, 3-min and 15-mins as hard as you can and on different days. Then using the a regression equation of y=mx+C you can calculate your critical power (longish power similar to FTP that on average people can sustain for somewhere between 30 and 60-mins and you also ascertain your W' (double ewe prime). If you use WKO5/Training Peaks W' is replaced with FRC. This (W'/FRC) is your anaerobic spare reserve battery and measured in Kj and is the energy you have available for work done above critical power (CP)/FTP. This energy store can be depleted rapidly with say a maximal 30-sec effort or depleted slowly with an effort say 5% over CP/FTP

[@andrewr9219]

My only question with this, with ramp test, when you say ride till you can’t pedal any more.. when you can’t make the wattage? Or literally you still trying to pedal and failing the watts?

[@meatmotorendurance]

They also forget to do a 5-minute anaerobic blowout before the 20 minutes. My ramp tests always over-estimate FTP.

[@AntonSostaric]

Best FTP test is 60 min max paced effort. Simple

[@81antiloop]

Try it on a tacx neo trainer. Let us know the difference

[@Sand0rNL]

Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't you supposed to remain seated during the test??

[@jonchapman86]

Sufferfest half monty.......it kind of combines both......very accurate.... for me anyway.

[@LukasHridesbikes]

You should note that It is important to stay seated during the ramp test.

[@benbos1925]

Shouldnt they be done seated ?

[@kyoungseoun]

I, somehow, always have better results with the 20min test rather than the ramp test...

[@sachieltromp6129]

Ur prob more aerobic then anarobic

[@MTBScotland]

Doesn't really matter which one you do so long as you do the same one every time on the same bike/equipment etc. Gives "you" a baseline to work from for fitness. I could not at the moment do my FTP output for an hour.

[@jarettlouie6442]

If you're on a tri bike, should you do this test in the aero position or base bars, does it even matter?

[@noahclaes22]

I just did the Ramp Test today

[@chriswillis515]

Ramp test is my favorite much less sweaty

[@Nathan-1234]

For the 20minute FTP test on Zwift it includes a 5min hard effort in the warm up, Is it important to actually do it at 100% intensity ? it usually leaves me feeling as if I have burned one of my matches. would it lead to a false result to reduce the difficulty % of the warmup interval ?

[@hebrews11vs5]

I found out a really fascinating way to estimate how much power you can put out for 1 hr. It's a bit complicated but here it is the protocol: ride the bike for one hour. Record power and take the average. This power is how much you could hypothetically put out for one hour if you rode your bike for one hour.

[@wemorgan]

As good as a 60min test might be it tends not to be so repeatable.

[@markthrelfall3577]

👏

[@richardjt8708]

And then there is getting the pacing spot-on for the accurate number. The best thing and also an important point is that any of these tests is a guide. People will always be slightly under, right on it or just over. Hence some little tweaking is quite often need.

[@pal_lokomotivet2679]

Agree. I also do belive that most people can learn to feel when they pass lactate threshold more accurate than a short ftp test can estimate it. increase the power gradually and i can feel within 10-15 watts when this is starting to go downhill. Ftp is of by 30 watts for me

[@hebrews11vs5]

@@pal_lokomotivet2679 that's interesting that you can feel yourself passing the threshold. What would you say that feels like?

[@BarryM_Tri]

Was the road bike a deliberate choice Mark? Or does it matter?

[@markthrelfall3577]

I do most of my training on the road bike these days, so it made sense for me right now. But when in race season and using the TT bike more, I would switch to testing on that too

[@alexabbottboyd915]

I've found the best solution to how horrible the 20 minute test is - sign up for a Zwift race that should take just over 20 mins. That way you can go all out and it's far more engaging and the motivation to dig deep is much greater when you are trying to win. Not sure I can go back

[@astroguyco]

Great video

[@dewidavies7995]

I need to do a zwift ramp test.

[@JensDueOhlsen]

Great vid. Thanks

[@dewidavies7995]

Zwift cycling Level 32, Zwift running Level 4 cat D.😊

[@richcrompton6891]

Really interesting. I’m using a dumb trainer on Zwift, so my power numbers are not exactly accurate, but the main issue is there is no smart erg mode on my Saris fluid 2, so I’ve only been able to do the 20 min test. As my set-up is consistent, I am assuming the numbers I get are too, if not accurate compared to a smart trainer/power meter. Does this mean I can just crack on and train within the zones using this dumb trainer and the results will be similar or do I need to spend £500+ to get some smart kit?

[@thebestcela2]

Do you think 🤔 Ramp is more for beginners and ftp for advanced like IM?

[@jamiegracie2458]

In a way yes. Beginners will find it hard to pace themselves for 20 minutes. Especially if they don't have any idea about the number they can (or might be able to) hold.

[@IronMong]

great video, thanks. Do you have different FTP for a road bike and TT bike. I have 10% lower on the latter. Thanks

[@wemorgan]

Yes this is very common. FTP is specific to your environment.

[@heatherfell_oly]

It's more about the ability to retest and have a number to train to rather than anything else so do what you're most comfortable on.

[@dominicbrown9172]

How do you unlock the zwift GTN kit?