The Best of Thrones - The Red Wedding and How to Subvert Expectations

[@HelloFutureMe]

Check out the other videos in our The Best of Thrones event and please make your own (we'll add them to the playlist if you do!) tinyurl.com/y5aottog (featuring the Take, Nando v Movies, Now You See It, and GreyArea) Get my writing/worldbuilding book here tinyurl.com/y5mwpyyj aaaaaaand be in to win a free copy by supporting me here www.patreon.com/hellofutureme. Stay nerdy! ~ Tim

[@matthewmuir8884]

I didn't think the Red Wedding was very good writing-wise when I first saw it. I saw it coming from a mile away because it was being built up so much that I knew something had to go horribly wrong. It also came across as shock value to me because I was thinking, "Really? If you kill Robb off now, then his arc; the arc of a character whose point of view we've been following since the death of his dad in season 1, will amount to nothing. Kill him off now, and he will have the exact same impact on the story as he would have if these guys decided to kill him in season 1: nothing. For writing and investment's sake; don't kill him now; kill him after he does something." As a result of all this, Shrike's death in the Mortal Engines film got more emotional investment out of me than the Red Wedding. But that was all before TLJ and season 8; all that gave me some appreciation for the Red Wedding: at least it didn't come out of nowhere. Though I will say, you are absolutely correct about the things that are good about the Red Wedding and what is necessary for a good subversion of expectations.

[@chandrawagner4061]

I know you said you don't plan on doing just game of thrones but a look on the dany subversion in either the same format or as a comparison to this video would be amazing. Whether you agree with the Dany twist or not I would love to see you discuss it this way because I personally did not like it but I still found myself comparing certain points in this video to the Dany thing and being conflicted. Any way I thought it would be a cool idea. Awesome videos btw!

[@sarasamaletdin4574]

It was kind of cheating to pick Red Wedding as your episode ;) but fun you did participate in the collaboration

[@MavenCree]

I pre-ordered your digital book but when does the physical one come out. Is it not going to be available on Amazon Canada?

[@bennettriegel8590]

Will you ever put your book on iBooks or make a physical copy?

[@netimarneto6473]

The best twists aren't the ones we didn't see coming, they're the ones we should have seen coming. Bro. You're a genius.

[@richardpreston5154]

I was just about to write this comment and then saw it was already the top one haha

[@IIDEADBIRDII]

He isnt a genius. Hes just using common sense.

[@netimarneto6473]

@@IIDEADBIRDII No doubt. But I'm also commenting on his execution of the line itself.

[@X3._.n3]

This is so true. I thought Walder Frey was being too nice and I *still* didn't see it coming. I should have seen it and I didn't.

[@ajizel13]

And thats why season finale isnt as bad as you think

[@bascal133]

You know it’s a good twist when the first time you see it it’s a shock and the second time it seems obvious and you see clues everywhere.

[@asarishepard8171]

tahts cause you can read subtle clues too :P

[@ziltoidtheomniscient2398]

thats a great way to describe it. that's why Dany's downfall kinda makes more sense the more I watch clips of season 1. I know a lot of people feel differently though.

[@mykeebeast]

@@ziltoidtheomniscient2398 after the red wedding i knew dany was inevitably going to go "mad" I started paying more attention to these little details and they kept saying this from the first episode!

[@Eukleides89]

@@ziltoidtheomniscient2398 Yeah, I think Dany was always meant to go mad, just that the execution of it in season 8 sucks.

[@thedeadcannotdie]

@@Eukleides89 Dany's crucifixion of the slave masters and her burning of Sam's family and many more subtler clues all have forshadowed Dany's slow descent into madness. I definitely agree the whole 'taking of King's Landing' should have had atleast 5 episodes

[@dokidoki777]

It's been years and people are still talking about it. That's how you know it was a damn good scene.

[@asarishepard8171]

i was careful not to spoil that for everyone that hadn't read the books :P but I can say I did throw the book across the room I was so shocked.

[@irov5884]

I'm so sad i saw this scene before even knowing about the show, that's actually after seeing this scene that i started to watch GoT but so the red weddings had no effect on me i knew it was going to happen :(

[@itsknowledge6139]

GOT season 1-4 is the best television in history. Change my mind.

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

Doki Doki I couldn't agree more!!! :)

[@enicot]

Memorable, yes. Good, I don't know. Considering how awful the GoT world is, I'd liked to see Rob's arc more than pretty much any other character's. I stopped watching GoT after this episode since it was no longer interesting, what came after has always felt like watching people fight to the death for the shiniest turd. It's a great show, expertly produced and acted. To me it just lost all the stakes instantly in exchange for shock value.

[@IMMORTALone84]

The last scene of the finale will show Eddard Stark waking up from this dream and telling Catelyn that he has decided not to go south.

[@wanderingrandomer]

That would honestly be amazing!

[@abubakarimran6553]

I wouldn’t put it past d & d

[@holysecret2]

As stupid as that would be, at least it would open up the door for a redo of the series. Though I would be fine if they started from late season 3 / early season 4 for a redo. Up to that point almost everything was close to perfect.

[@kingmuizz708]

Would not put that past them

[@antheathetiefling8581]

"My lord?" "On second thought, let's not go to kings landing. It's a silly place "

[@NevG27]

Dany's madness could have been the next "Red wedding" if D&D knew how to write. I hope when (or if) GRRM finishes the story, it's a masterpiece like this.

[@its__maria]

It would have been so good to watch her slow decent into madness (preferably over at least 1 season) instead of a couple of episodes

[@iaingoldie1542]

It all comes down to Young Griff. Without him so much of Dany's descent into madness just doesn't make sense.

[@Markadown]

@@iaingoldie1542 As Martin once said about the show - small change of killing a character here or missing character there will have a butterfly affect on the story that is to come.

[@rae8959]

Dany should be Macbeth essentially

[@btchiaintkidding7837]

@@iaingoldie1542 yep. When she was burning the innocents, thats when i thought, "whoA , so martin's gonna turn her into madqueen, damn!that would be interesting to read with these griffin characters . Guess thats why he introduced them so later in the books" . He needed them for these.

[@Tyranastrasza]

My expectations were subverted this season. I expected it to be good.

[@chandrawagner4061]

😂😂😂

[@theharaldrsaga]

@@Poroner I thought they were writing a bunch of bad seasons, so they coud subvert our expectations by making the final season good. Well it was a double subversion. The last season was horrible. Ya got me Benioff. Ya got me.

[@arielshligman2146]

Why

[@PatrickOMulligan]

Your were not paying attention to season 7 then.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

That was season 7 for me.

[@nenegrey2282]

When the Rains of Castamere starts playing and Catelyn's expression immediately changes... chills. And that last "Mother..." from Robb... tears.

[@notsansastark2541]

eoe123321 really? Wow! Why did he say greywind?

[@Guardsman-sy8qm]

The whole of Westros knew to fear that song.

[@KingSpeechRo]

Honestly Robb was so stupid throughout his campaign you should've seen it coming

[@nenegrey2282]

@@KingSpeechRo Oh, I did. I knew he wasn't coming out of this season alive. As they said, he lost the war the moment he married a common girl and broke his promise to Lord Frey, and when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. The scene is still touching, though.

[@KingSpeechRo]

@@nenegrey2282 he lost it the moment he ignored everyone who counciled him and cut off Karstarks head. As they told him he WOULD lose their men for doing it. He could've held him prisoner until the war was over and wouldn't have lost the men. This is the part where you realize he was his father x 2 with the righteous stupidity

[@axiantia]

Last time I was this early GOT was good at subverting my expectations

[@danielmeijer4782]

Axiantia or just good in general

[@nicholasengel9823]

I really liked Daenerys' going mad

[@axiantia]

Nicholas Engel I definitely agree that it would have been a interesting IF it was pulled off well. It was literally only there for shock value with very little lead up to her suddenly killing a bunch of innocent people

[@nicholasengel9823]

@@axiantia I actually was waiting for several seasons for her to finally show her evil/mad side. I was actually very happy and finally liked her character again when she started killing civilians

[@axiantia]

Nicholas Engel Look, I agree completely. I was just waiting for her to go mad as well. The thing is, they pulled it off terribly. They had some foreshadowing but nothing showing us how she turned. Instead it was like a sudden switch was flipped with no explanation. Again, I would have loved for her to go mad. It would be amazing to watch and really interesting. It’s just that what she did last episode went against everything the character stood for and nothing really showed us what made her truly go mad. All in all, this entire season was rushed and should have been 10 episodes to really explore her going mad

[@delraycoles6145]

I still love the littlefinger quote about the Starks "Quick tempers, slow minds" Our author let us know everything about our fan favorites in those few words.

[@RonquixoteDIII]

I'm a slow learner, it's true...but I do learn

[@TheMetallicaMonster]

Lol yep. "wUt dO DrAGoNs eVeN eAt aNyWay?"

[@wargod248]

Actions no longer having consequences was one of the worst things to happen to the show in later seasons. The Red Wedding was a wonderful buildup of actions having consequences that made perfect sense in hindsight. It was horrible to watch, but it was our protagonists’ actions and flaws that lead to their fall. It was built on the themes and tone of the story, not just a subversion for subversion’s sake.

[@TGPDrunknHick]

Honestly even before it happened I expected something like it. that's just have the series had been going to that point. the exact manner and total fallout was a surprise though.

[@qayyuma9622]

Ponibius s5 was the least season with consequences for a characters actions (Jon’s death and Cersei’s walk of shame )

[@roscojenkins7451]

DnD " we're going to send one of the lead characters with 6 fan favorite secondary characters north of the wall into the heart of the most dangerous lands" Fans: "What will it cost?" DnD: "a couple red shirts and a secondary character" Fans: "oh...giving everyone plot armor, then? Well, what will be achieved?" DnD: "Narratively.... Nothing. But it'll pad a few episodes..."

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

AND exactly why I "noped out" at the onset... I get BAD feelings when the TV starts spouting a series even before the books are finished... Serials (TV) move faster than books. It's systemic... AND with a writer as careful to craft as Martin, it's a cinch the TV-trash is just going to take up a formulaic machination... just as quickly as they can get the Craftsman out the door. ;o)

[@mayolicious69]

@@qayyuma9622 I would probably say the High Sparrow fits the bill too

[@tony951jl]

Robb also lost all of the karstarks soldiers when he beheaded lord karstark when his mother and wife told him not to. Forcing him to ask lord Frey for support

[@holysecret2]

He mentioned that

[@-eurosplitsofficalclanchan6057]

He said that in the video

[@alaricdelano8159]

With the writer's currently method he'd just have asked Dany how she gets her men to respawn then just hammer away all day to get every man he needs to win the war.

[@irrevenant3]

6. "It dulls the senses" was also an important beat because it emphasised that driniking and partying had left them in a position where they'd made themselves vulnerable.

[@rubix4195]

Funny enough, Arya "dulled" a lot of people permanently under the guise of having a drink at a party.

[@spockman4250]

I think a great element of Rob's story is the fact that his "flaws" are the ideals that other stories strive to reenforce. He marries Talisa because of LOVE rather than and arranged marriage of duty. He beheads Karstark for JUSTICE rather than let a child murderer go free for political gain. In other stories, the audience roots for the hero to make these choices because they reflect the values we want to see in characters, but in the world of GOT, the character's values mean nothing when up against practicality and strategy. It subverts expectations because it subverts the very values we look for in a fantasy hero. In hindsight, we wish Robb sold out his values for political gain. We wish he ignored Talisa and married for strategy. We wish he discarded his sense of honor and justice and made peace with Karstark. To me, that's where the genius of the Red Wedding shines.

[@vinsanityreviews]

The really important distinction to note between what goes on here in the Red Wedding and in earlier seasons is that it subverts expectations, not NARRATIVE TROPES and character logic. That’s where the writers in season 8 have gone wrong- It’s not character regression

[@MoffatLee]

I think Arya should have teleport backstabbed Robb at the Wedding, that would have subverted my expectations even more, making it even better... right?

[@vinsanityreviews]

Lee Moffat I think Jon should go ‘mad’ in the next episode and become a totally different character too! That’d be sick!

[@jo.k.4210]

@@vinsanityreviews Yeah, he always was a dragon..

[@BigHenFor]

I agreed with you until your last sentence. And this is why: "When someone tells you who they are the first time, believe them." People are often blinded when they are emotionally invested in someone. When that person does something iffy, especially to someone disliked, people tend to makes excuses. Many of Daenerys' fans failed to note her reaction at the poetic, but horrendous death of her brother at the hand of her husband Khal Drogo. She did not behave normally at all. Furthermore, they still cheered her on when her response to any issue was to kill the people who were, or who she thought was in her way. No-one asks if it was politically or morally wise for her to do it. Even when she killed the Tarlys for choosing "not to bend the knee" instead of imprisoning or banishing them, it seemed that everyone thought the ends justified the means. The truth is Daenerys was always going to go too far. Her youthful inexperience, narcissism, and overweening confidence mean she lacks real insight into her self and her circumstances to avoid using the nuclear option, and becoming the very thing she swore to destroy - a lethal tyrant. The only problem with the show is that the showrunners ran out of stamina. They were offered a 10 episode season by HBO, but they had had enough. They were going to Disney, and insisted they could wrap up the story in 6. They served themselves better than the story. Season 8 was underwritten and rushed. Not enough was laid out for everyone to be satisfied, and for some that dissatisfaction has shifted to anger. Well, I'm disappointed but not angry. There's more happening in the real world to be mad at for me to go there for a TV show. I'm disappointed in the choices made, but not surprised. That's the way Hollywood works. And the showrunners ran the show into the ground because of their impatience. But, what can we learn from this? Firstly, showrunners may have too much power. As D & D ran out of steam, the end product should have been handed on to those willing and able to maintain the storytelling. Their impatience to get things over and done should have been a red flag to HBO, but the Sunk Cost fallacy kicked in. No-one likes to change jockeys during a race, right? But this wasn't a horse race, and past results do not guarantee future returns, especially when your key players are burnout. They should have been replaced but they weren't.

[@SeeFoodDie]

BigHenFor I’m going to subvert expectations and not read a word you said. That would equal same amount of thought the writers had for season 8...

[@GentlemanOrc]

If you subvert expectations correctly, people will look back and think, "yeah, this is more logical than what I was expecting, damn"

[@JD-mz1rl]

How to NOT subvert expectations: Red Wedding: before the Rains of Castamere plays, a meteor falls from the sky and kills everyone there. The effect on the plot is the same, and by golly, that certainly would subvert expectations, but the entire audience would hate it, because a giant meteor appearing *doesn't follow logically from the events detailed prior.* Likewise, in S8 GoT, when Dany murders everyone, it is not presented satisfactorily, because given her character up to that point, it was not a logical decision for her. Even though you could argue it was foreshadowed, her character had not been developed to give any indication that she would murder innocent women and children.

[@UdyKumra]

It was maybe foreshadowing, but foreshadowing is not character development.

[@JD-mz1rl]

@@UdyKumra yes that is what is stated

[@lindseycassella3015]

That's a great way to describe it.

[@Meesterlijker]

This comment basically nails it.

[@NoKOzKamui]

"Obviously the meteor was foreshadowed in S02E01, were you see a red meteor in the sky" - D&D

[@LyricalCinnamon-jc2os]

The writers kind of forgot about basic logic and intelligence.

[@marineros2000]

is it like when dany forgot about the iron fleet?

[@msgirly6827]

@oROGUEo im pretty sure the person knows. He/she was going along with the joke

[@Wizard_Pikachu]

@oROGUEo People forget things. Quite simple.

[@sgx9874]

the quality of this season is real subversion. you expected it to be good. but the themes and logical narrative of the past 3 seasons should have made it clear it would be a terrible season. it subverts the trope of having an epic finale.

[@4rs0n1sm]

I mean, they went from adapting a book series to writing their own end in 6 episodes, it's not really surprising it flopped.

[@rynardtsieberhagen3049]

Fun fact, Jaime Lannister told Roose Bolton to tell Robb Stark that "The Lannisters send their regards." when Roose set him free.

[@cheeseisjar3058]

In the books he just goes “you’ll give my regards to Robb stark” or something. It’s great though.

[@Jaykey-mj2mp]

And in the Books it’s Jamie Lannister sends his regards

[@Bipolar.Baddie]

The best part of this scene is when the doors close and the Rains of Castamere start playing and you can see true fear in Caetlyn's eyes as she begins to understand what is happening

[@neelbhavsar1977]

They did prepare you for a probable massacre from the start. When you pull off a solid twist that's anchored in the established plot, you gain the viewer's trust. When you subvert the viewer's expectations without a grounded explanation, then you lose the viewers trust. Great video

[@FrostedSeagull]

Neel, Well said. 🙆‍♀️

[@josh043p6]

This! This explains why so many people hate the final season. There are no more consequences! The Red Wedding isnt just some SHOCKING event for the sake of shock *cough* Dany *cough* There was a clear outline of events that led to this. We just have to pay attention.

[@TheAkwarium]

I knew it's gonna be a shitty ending from the moment on when Cersei suffered no consequences of blowing up the Sept of Baelor, I knew the show's only gonna get worse from that point on

[@jonathanbacklin9425]

The Only way to survive game of thrones is to be the camera man

[@biggles4876]

Or be Arya in the middle of a battle

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

Back when GRRM was still involved and still cared. Back when I was still involved and still cared.

[@carterf3585]

It sure was nice when they still had brilliant book material that subverted expectations in an intelligent way.

[@nicholasengel9823]

The last season was actually quite good apart from the strategic choices in the long night

[@TheMurrmursonbottle]

I don’t know why people were surprised when the quality of the writing declined when they didn’t have book material to rely on. Of course D&D aren’t as good writers as GRRM, people would be stupid to think that WOULDNT happen. The reason people think this season is so bad isn’t because the writing is TERRIBLE but because everything is terrible compared to the masterful writing of GRRM and the production team behind his ideas for the first four seasons

[@bgill7475]

The sad part is that the acting and production for the sets is still amazing, it's just the writing that's really bad.

[@willster2967]

Nicholas Engel The Long Night is from this current season. It none of this season has been very good at all.

[@alphabah49]

@@TheMurrmursonbottle great observation. I've been saying this for the longest

[@Ben117-r9p]

Because it made sense, it didnt have to make characters make stupid decisions to have it play out, it made sense for all of the characters to make the decisions they made in the episode, it felt natural, not just unexpected for the sake of it

[@johnnythesnow253]

This episode completely broke me. I was so devastated and couldn't get over it for almost week

[@primeirrational]

Haha yeah, I feel you. I read it first. It was in the middle of the night. I thought for myself "just one more chapter". I was very tired. Then, like, how it ended. Jesus Christ. I got fully awake and kept reading the whole night!

[@reginaphalange9417]

When I first saw the episode, I was shocked during all the evening. And the editing also makes the end of the episode darker, as the footages continues a few seconds after Cathlyn is killed, without any music, including in the credits

[@alas48]

I watched it the next day after my father died. He was a fan of the first season and I started watching it because of him. I cried so much and wondered how could this story go on? Both in the show and in my life, then I watched the next episode and realized it was all a dance between hope and despair...

[@e.r.8383]

I watched this late at night with my sister and we had to watch Pets TV afterwards in order to go to bed

[@francis7336]

Same, I had to rewatch this scene three until I realised they would not come back from the dead

[@erwinsmith9786]

Robb was a military genius, unfortunately not a politic one

[@siddharth8184]

What millitary "genius"

[@Sp1rit19]

It didnt help that he had the worst help in Westeros lol

[@Sp1rit19]

@@siddharth8184 The kind of genius that defeat it Tywin Lannister in every battle they fought

[@negativezero8174]

Which Robb? Seems like both

[@mijanhoque1740]

Siddharth The military genius who defeated Tywin Lannister in all their battles. He won 3 battles and was absolutely whooping tywins ass.

[@colinthome527]

What made Game of Thrones so great ? 100% George R. R. Martin.

[@-eurosplitsofficalclanchan6057]

Exactly

[@nikhiliyengar1510]

I love the books for dropping quite a few hints about Roose's betrayal, from the fact that their houses were historical rivals, where he sends other Northern bannermen to fight a battle instead of his own to conserve his strength and cost Robb at the same time and also a letter he receives and drops into the fire in an Arya POV. All these details make his ultimate betrayal more realistic and meaningful.

[@seansillah2703]

The Red Wedding made me so angry I almost threw my laptop on the floor..... but it also made me fall in love with GOT.

[@mrvulture8981]

Back when GoT was great...

[@Christian-vq3lr]

Someone yeah, such a long time ago... it’s been like, what, a week?

[@viorp5267]

@@Christian-vq3lr 4 years...

[@Christian-vq3lr]

Viorp even if you didn’t like the battle of winterfell and the first few episodes, last weeks episode was really good, and the previous season was also good, so I don’t know where this 4 years thing comes from

[@MoffatLee]

@@Christian-vq3lr All of the Dorne plot, Arya surviving multiple stab wounds and then swimming through filthy water, Ramsay plot armour and his 20 Good Men, Tyrion turning stupid once he meets Daenerys, Varys doing the same, Littlefinger being dumbed down so he can be wrecked by 'super-smart' Sansa. Teleporting Ironborn Fleets that are built in no time on the Iron Isles which have practically no timber. Everything related to the Walkers after Hardhome, especially the episode where Dany goes beyond the wall and loses a Dragon. Arya becoming a better fighter than Brienne. Euron 'Finger-In-The-Bum' Greyjoy. Brienne finding both Sansa and Arya on her wild goose chase. Stannis sacrificing Shireen to try to beat Ramsay instead of doing it when it actually would matter like against the Walkers. Bronn and Jaime plot armour in their fight against Daenerys. Really I could probably go on and on if I spent more than 5 minutes thinking of the problems the show has had, especially from season 5 onwards. Also, you should note that I haven't even started talking about the problems in Season 8 which somehow manage to surpass everything I've mentioned already. So yeah, it has been a long time since it was good, you're just delusional because there were MOMENTS when it was good in the last few seasons and you were constantly looking forward to THE PAYOFF like everyone else who only started to accept how bad it's gotten now instead of realising that it had dropped in quality a long time ago.

[@mrvulture8981]

"Dany kind of forgot about the Iron fleet"

[@matthewparker9276]

You also forgot that the red wedding was set up as the reuniting of arya and robb, and the start of the hounds redemption arc.

[@kevinjohnanand]

The funny thing is, they did a mini version of Robb's story with Oberyn in season 4.

[@mkalyan4289]

idk why that scene dont get as much attention as red wedding gets, it was equally shocking.

[@chiara-luciapaone-hoyland6870]

@@mkalyan4289 the red wedding includes established characters from episode 1 who constitute a massive part of the overall show's content/plot - we expect to see a lot more of Robb's since the show seems based around his war with the Lannisters following Ned's death. Oberyn's death was shocking but it didn't change too much of the show and its seemingly established future plot, I think

[@wudz4372]

@@mkalyan4289 it was more shocking for me than this scene. When I watched the series I hadn't started the books, but I found it very weird that Walder would shrug off the promise that a Stark would marry a Frey, when Cat spent quite some episodes setting up the nasty reputation of the Freys. It was just, "something's odd, something's going to happen." With Oberyn, we had a couple of episodes getting to know him very little, but enough to root for him. And he had the duel, but the twist was too sudden, and gruesome. We barely had a second to process 10 seconds ago he had won before his head exploded.

[@chiara-luciapaone-hoyland6870]

@@wudz4372 not a single part of me expected the 'Red Wedding' based on the wedding that happened moments before. But I agree that because Oberyn wasn't established it was shocking to see him die rather than someone who might have been in the show for longer. Gotta admit after the Red Wedding I was always on edge for every character haha

[@joshuakyalo9645]

Oberyn's death in the books was more meaningful than in the show. Mostly because in the fifth season of the TV series, the Dorne storyline was not explored as well as it was in the books.

[@breezy3392]

Robb had a brilliant military mind, good for battle strategy. Political strategy...not so much

[@avekatumba4794]

Brianna Johnson But his sisters have learnt well from the Lannisters

[@breezy3392]

@@avekatumba4794 Jon has learned how to bring people together and lead them, Sansa has the politics, Robb would be the battle tactition, Arya the Faceless Assassin, Bran can get the intel...What would Rickon's role have been?

[@Zeuseus6609]

@@breezy3392 mascot

[@coleschubert9868]

Hmmmmmm foreshadowing for jon snow.

[@samsulh314]

Brianna Johnson Rickon would be the bait. Lol

[@theotherside931]

*It doesn't matter. As long as fans didn't see it coming, D&D are okay with it.*

[@marineros2000]

and if you didn't like it, you just say that because you didn't see it coming.

[@marineros2000]

@GenericGamer no.227 oh my friend i totally agree with you, i said my comment as sarcasm, in fact even GRRM said in one of his interviews that he could always just bring aliens at the end of the show and it'd surprise the readers, but it wouldn't be a good story telling.

[@marineros2000]

@GenericGamer no.227 oh lol, i never r/whoooosh, because it usually leads to a fight, and i really don't like online fights xD

[@supremeplatypus7192]

What's this about Dungeons and Dragons?

[@elsiekarp]

Alienation of allies: when he shuts grey wind up in a crate, thus distancing himself from one of his most powerful and personal allies in combat. God I love this story.

[@userunknownxx1]

The Red Wedding is like the most memorable episode of the entire series. That and the one I hate the most because I loved Rob Stark.

[@jayceeleon]

The crazy thing is I genuinely was depressed that whole week after I watched it, I also had terrible dreams. Will never forget it

[@YourBlackLocal]

“Script writers don’t just include this stuff for nothing” Tell that to the Night King. P.S: Great Video as always.

[@chandrawagner4061]

Just somebody please, please tell that to D&D

[@LydsTherinNotamon]

Good* script writers

[@shimmanojoe2221]

One of my favourite episodes by far If the red wedding didn’t leave you feeling like a family member had passed away for at least a couple days you have no heart

[@marineros2000]

i guess i have no heart.

[@holysecret2]

@@marineros2000 you have a *heart* of *stone*

[@therenx8385]

I was laughing at the red wedding. No, I'm not joking and no, I'm not a psychopath

[@wanderingrandomer]

My favourite scene in Game of Thrones is actually the destruction of the Great Sept of Baelor at the end of Season 6. It is just so masterfully built up to the climax in terms of music and sense of unease. It's a really shocking moment, but is kind of inevitable for the High Sparrow in the same way as the Red Wedding is for Robb Stark: in his righteous pursuit of justice, he is blind to the dangers of court politics. When Margeary notices that 'something's wrong', I get chills!

[@michaeldeboer9940]

He used court politics to win, using the faith militant’s power and the king’s approval to win. He didn’t expect Cersei to blow up the Sept, a complete disrespect and insult to politics and rules. He expected fear. He didn’t expect her to not care about any of their lives.

[@wanderingrandomer]

@@michaeldeboer9940 Ok, fair point. He underestimated Cercei's willingness to sacrifice her ilk. The High Sparrow had the arrogance to assume he knew the mind's of big players of the game.

[@LBJ50]

please do a video on how the writers Dan and Dave forgot these lessons when writing Dany's tragedy in season 8 episode 5

[@Nmoren]

I deeply regret that I spoiled most of GoT for myself before I decided to watch it because I thought I wasn’t going to enjoy it. So I never got to experience the true Red Wedding

[@ineednochannelyoutube2651]

Exact same situation, but I read the books instead. However, I knew the Red wedding was coming and my jaw still hit the floor. I saw all the clues ahead of time and I was literally shaking with uncontrollable tension. there were also other unpredictable elements I wasn't privy to, like, do you know what they did the their bodies in the books? It's really sick and made me loathe that fat bastard. (Lord Frey.)

[@skyz6708]

I've seen the leaked script. The ending will be marked as one of the biggest let downs in TV history.

[@poeticyy]

A good second part to this video would be to explain why Danaerys turn did not feel satisfying.

[@DPAE-xc4ph]

Or when Bran becomes king and Jon Snow is cast away like a nobody. Bran said earlier in the season that he could not become Lord of Winterfell because he was the three eyed raven yet he's perfectly fine becoming king because Tyrion had a nice speech? Come on. Also, nowhere ever in his story did it even hint at him becoming king and half a million people had to die for him to get there but 'everything that's happened has brought us where we are now'. It feels like D&D rolled a dice and chose at random. Jon Snow would have been fine as king. We expected it but that doesn't matter. He went from a bastard, to the leader of his friend group in the night's watch, to the commander of the night's watch, to the King in the North and then is the true heir to the iron throne. Him becoming king finishes his arc perfectly. Yet D&D had to be geniuses and 'SUbveRt mY ExpECtaTiOns' by casting him out because Grey Worm (a powerless soldier) said so. People will say, "Being north of the wall is what he wanted." He sure didn't seem happy when Tyrion told him and it always seemed liked Tormund wanted Jon to be north of the wall more than Jon ever did. 'The lone wolf dies but the pack survives'. NONE OF THE STARKS WILL EVER SEE EACH OTHER AGAIN. I loved this show more than anything and I defended it all of season 7 and 8 but the final episode was the most stupid and most unsatisfying things I have ever watched.

[@Altrantis]

Because there's a jump in logic. She's always been bloodthirsty, but specifically for those who do evil. She's always been protective of the weak and the downtrodden. So one day people are mean to her and she decides to kill everyone? It was never about herself.

[@emiliaromana2683]

Hey, I watch your videos for a while now and I must say: Thank you. I write books myself and you have helped me a lot in becoming a better writer. Please keep up with this great videos about worldbuilding und fantasytropes and all of the tipps. It is really well done! So ... like Bran said to Theon: You are a good man. Thank you. :)

[@gachaverses]

cute!

[@coleschubert9868]

I never had any interest in the books until season 8.

[@soyou9212]

Same. I might start reading the books now in preparation for the newest book.

[@TactikalTemplar]

2:16 - “Terry Brooks’ The Sword of Truth.” *Terry Goodkind Enters the Chat*

[@Adeon55]

I had to replay that, myself. "Am I mishearing that? Who is Terry Brooks? Is that a nickname??"

[@Overlord734]

"Now I live mostly in the past" - average GoT fan.

[@Adeon55]

Oh no, it's true x.x

[@HuevoBendito]

First Marvel and now a GoT video series? Awwwww yeaaaaaah

[@GP_1834]

What's next "one godly scene"(Godzilla series),"one heroic academia scene"(my hero academia ),"out of this world"(series with space in them like star wars or star Trek"

[@jackweiss5480]

@Gaurav Prahash Even though these are not happening you just made me very hype.

[@mikyto7313]

Oh wow, I'm here early. Praise Supreme Leader Mishka.

[@kmpg8037]

Praise be to our Supreme Leader!

[@Chronocrits]

One of my favourite scenes (though it is hard to watch) is when Roderick is executed by Theon. You see the desperation in Theon’s eyes not to carry out the deed. Then you see him failing horribly to actually perform the execution clean. The whole scene is pure internal conflict. Powerful stuff.

[@issavirgo4838]

Honestly we should crowdfund to have you and The Take team rewrite season 8

[@yandhiadi3021]

First One Marvelous scene , Now Best of Game of thrones . I'm prepared .

[@Maceykatie]

How could you discuss avenging fathers without mentioning the legend Inigo Montoya!

[@shaunaburton7136]

I couldn't watch the actual episode but it impacted people who never watched it. That's powerful for a tv show.

[@kirstenpaff8946]

Game of Thrones reused the sweet moment before killing off a character trope so often that it became cliche. Whenever I see two characters have a touching moment now, my reaction isn't "oh that's so sweet", it's "I see dead people". All of the impact of the death has been robbed, because I am just rolling my eyes at the cliche.

[@jamesacolatse7447]

You are a beautiful writer. The perspectives you talk from are powerfully impressive and leaves one flabbergasted.

[@ZerogunRivale]

In many ways, these aren't even totally and wholly subverted expectations. Robb made too many political mistakes. Robb did not listen to his counsel. Robb let too much slip through his hands, despite his many battlefield victories. In many ways, expectations were NOT subverted. The reality is, the expectations you had deep down, the ones you didn't want to acknowledge were there, but were alive somewhere deep inside of you, were totally and completely fulfilled.

[@ppsarrakis]

nailed it.

[@JKozlovable]

Yeah, I believe that the expectations that were subverted were our romanticized views on stories, where, despite the hero's stupidity and folly, he always manages to stand proud over adversity. Logical conclusions are often disregarded in favour of said romantic storytelling, so that's why GRRM's subversion of the tropes is so effective. He subverted the reality of how stories are often told.

[@Di7manya]

I think its more that those expectations are grounded in human nature. We want the people we care about to be happy and do well. The best stories are the ones that make us feel things, that make us like or understand the characters taking part in them. When you develop characters like Ned and Robb Stark we attach to them because they are noble, loyal and good. Even if they make mistakes we still root for them because they are good people we care about. We can't control it, because its in human nature to hope for the best in the face of the harsh nature of the world.

[@zshaikh13]

Homie that was literally his point in this video

[@bel410la]

The Red Wedding was actually based on the Black Dinner in Scottish History where two brothers were invited to a dinner of King James II, they brought forward a black bull head which is a sign of death, then they were dragged out of the home, and beheaded. It was hard to read when I first read the books, it was no less hard to watch in the show even when I knew it was coming. But I agree it was masterfully written bits and pieces were perfect. I loved this video, can't wait to see more, and I love the end of your videos when you play the rain. It's so calming.

[@chalonhutson]

The second time watching this, when Talisa says they will name their son “Eddard”, it freaking killed me!

[@batmansdragon8820]

That was a very coherent, intelligent, professional video. Very much worth watching.

[@nemdenemam9753]

Its funny that they are claiming the fans of the franchise where the red wedding happened are just unhappy because they didnt get what they expected in s8

[@MaxIronsThird]

You're a genius, everyone wanted Robb Stark's unborn child to die in amazingly gore fashion.

[@extraplain2412]

The funniest thing is every "twist" they've made in season 8 aren't really unpredictable you could see them coming a mile away, they were just the easiest outcome for the characters without logic. Yes our expectations were subverted because we thought something much smarter and interesting would happen.

[@nemdenemam9753]

@@extraplain2412 the fact that they disregarded the azor ahai prophecy was pretty surprising to me. Unless they flip it and say that Dany is that apocalyptic occurance that was foretold by the religions of two different continents. Which would be really surprising since she is not the first mad Targaryen with a dragon. Im really curious if they are just gonna disregard it completely or say that the azor ahai killing his love was true but the whole lightbringer and her sacrificie being necessary for the win wasnt true. But yeah the rest are like: yeah you suprised me...by chosing the most uninspired possibilites. Although I'll give them the nightking story not explored as they plan a whole new series to dive into that (not that I care for that series at all but at least i can see some coherent idea behind it)

[@extraplain2412]

@@nemdenemam9753 Yeah why even bring it up at all if they aren't going to follow up on it? At this point I'm not expecting any answers to anything set up that they will hide behind "it's good to leave things ambigious". I'm expecting the finale to try to be surprising but there's nothing left of the story other then what's obviously going to happen. I was excited when I heard they were doing a prequel but now that I know this is what happens to the night king and the white walkers I kinda don't really care anymore. There might be a hint to them in the last episode but even that will feel like a cop out since we're at the end. Unless they plan to pick GoT up in 10 or so years it doesn't really matter what happens. It's a depressing feeling.

[@angelmora3660]

@@extraplain2412 Nope, no hint no nothing. It was probably the most unsatisfying ending I could've think of and yet that is exactly what happened. The Night King was just evil, Cersei was just mean, Bran's powers were useless, Daenerys went crazy just because, Jon was brought to life to have a meaningless ending, Arya was inmortal and turned into Christopher Columbus because...? And I'm falling short.

[@themk4982]

This video was amazing. I’d LOVE to see another Game of Thrones analysis, I think I and so many others are familiar with the show if not the books to the extent that it’s quite easy to understand the concepts you’re talking about, despite how complicated they are. Of course your stellar presentation and explanation of the concepts are a great help also, so thank you.

[@chelseafan3709]

I think it's interesting that Danny takes casterly rock, as Robb wanted to do, and it lead to nothing.

[@ppsarrakis]

what happened to it anyway... they explained it at all?

[@chelseafan3709]

@@ppsarrakis Euron had them blockaded from the sea and Jaime used it as a distraction to take highgarden. I don't think they kept it for long.

[@aussiejed1]

If Tywin had still been alive it would have meant more, as the perception of his family was important to him and losing their ancestral home is a bad look. He didn't care for the castle but he wouldn't be happy about losing it. Jaime doesn't give a damn about it but correctly predicts that Tyrion thinks they do - that Tyrion is fighting Tywin in his mind, not his brother and sister. That said, Tyrion is supposed to be smart enough that he would understand how his siblings feel about their family home and would not support taking it.

[@LibertyBridgeProductions]

Couldn’t agree more. Best twists aren’t the ones we don’t see coming but the ones that we should’ve seen coming

[@j.quiles8624]

Im early *Spoiler Alert* At the end of all Mishka will sit in the Iron Throne

[@lookihaveausernametoo4231]

Is it a spoiler of its THAT obvious?

[@pisoprano]

All hail Mishka!

[@hdhdvsjah1878]

Hey get out boy! It’s Hot Pie and I am ready to fight for him

[@hitrapperandartistdababy]

Who the hell is Miskha?! You mean Mhysa??

[@smarie2842]

The Red Wedding, The Purple Wedding, The Beheading of Ned Stark, A Crown for a King, and the Trial of Tyrion Lanaster were all well written never forgotten scenes in GOT.

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

What about the burning of King's Landing?

[@aacsmiles]

I never wanna hear the words “subverting expectations” again.

[@itsnotnaeyo]

Dude is talking sense and throwing serious shade. I'm here for it!

[@scalpingsnake]

The best way to supprise an audience is make them not expect something that they could have expected -Me

[@marineros2000]

well, GRRM said he could always make aliens come down to earth at the end and it'll surprise the audience, but it wouldn't be a good story.

[@holysecret2]

Me sounds like a wise person

[@temacc]

Unbelievable. So great. I truly don't think I'd ever be able to even consider writing the stories in my head if not for your videos. Thank you for your hard work.

[@STR33TSofJUST1C3]

Rewatching the Red Wedding is just so damn painful. *For all the good reasons.*

[@julioacceus253]

The best part about the Red Wedding is that you can go back and find so many factors that led to it.

[@SpiralSine6]

Wow, no shoutout to Patchface for predicting the Red Wedding as well?

[@nikhiliyengar1510]

This is for the show, thought that was fairly obvious.

[@MasterRoyalSnow]

We get it, you read the books

[@radu0011]

wow he was just joking around why would you 2 correct him or mock him ... @Nikhil Krishnan @Royal

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

He pointed it out briefly

[@jackcollins2568]

Baby Ned getting stabbed is equally disturbing as Ned getting beheaded.

[@Jona69]

In summary: subverting expectations works when it makes sense and is meaningful.

[@waywardkrow2731]

I rediscovered this channel recently, and it's just amazing how you're explaining so many concepts to writing so elaborate and eloquently, so that I can understand and learn from your videos. I have ambitions of taking my own writing more seriously going forward, and your content inspire me to do just that. Thank you! :)

[@heikesiegl2640]

the makers of "the crimes of grindlewald" thought it was a great idea to make queeny a bady. because it was unexpected. but as we all know, just because something is unexpected, doesn't make it a good twist

[@cebokhumalo602]

"Overcoming one's flaws does not mean you succeed..." bro, that's hella deep

[@fang609]

God I loved those good old days back when they had books to work with and George would get involved with the show and they didn't throw subversions left and right and the characters acted like themselves. Those were the days.

[@TheJreesing]

I swear every time I watch one of your videos, I get a urge to become a fantasy writer. Great video as always and can't wait to pick up your book!

[@ginge641]

The good seasons of Game of Thrones were basically about a few Othellos in a world of Iagos.

[@poseidonc1259]

Oooooh... probably one of the best foreshadowed pieces of storytelling. Not only was it shocking & impactful in the book, but it was well translated onto the screen as well.

[@WillRock07]

I feel like the big difference here is that expectations were subverted successfully with Neds, Robb, and Catelyns deaths, because the characters who caused their deaths were at the time fairly background characters, so we couldn't know what they'd do, even with the small hints of their villainy before it. With something like Dany torching kings landing, we've known her for 10 years and you can't just "subvert expectations" with a character we know so well without some SERIOUS work put into the character development, which they neglected because they wanted it to be more of a shock. A real shame.

[@SamP-uh1mm]

I'm currently rewatching GoT (again) and your videos enhance the experience so much! Thank you Tim!

[@kindle1951]

Funny how subtle HBO builds up our expectation on such a great show, yet subvert it by giving us D&D.

[@Arcananine77]

"The best twist are not the ones that we didn't see coming. But the ones we *should* have seen coming." I love this line!

[@flik221]

I'll go ahead and wait for the books to come out

[@I_Am_Bowi]

And this is exactly why Rhaegal dying was so terrible. Pure shock, no clues beforehand and it did not make sense either.

[@d.b.4671]

How to subvert expectations: _don't_ have a worldwide social media network of people blurting out, *"The Red Wedding is coming! The Red Wedding is coming!"* with no regard for anyone who hasn't read the original material. :P

[@mindlessjack3189]

Hey Hello Future Me, just wanna let you lnow that you are one of the best literature channels out there. By far my favorite, and i always look forward to your uploads. Keep up the awsome work !

[@SynneDennis]

While I don't disagree with why Roose declined the wine, keep in mind that he's also a healthnut.

[@Di7manya]

He even says to Jaime that he doesn't drink in a previous episode. That's why its imo both a hint and a misdirection. It is consistent with his character but its also meant to be suspicious because in that same exchange Jamie notes how odd it looks to other people.

[@KamKing19]

I’m honestly enjoying this analysis of how different functions of shows work.

[@baamnight6878]

Subverting expectations is also a genre of comedy right? Is the Red Wedding a comedic scene?

[@SS-md3hh]

Rlack Babbit only if you have a very very dark sense of humor! 😅

[@nikhiliyengar1510]

The Entertrollment version certainly manages to be. ;)

[@maxell9544]

Yes, it was hilarious

[@holysecret2]

No but S8E5 certainly way. At least I laughed throughout, I'm not kidding. The supposed "tragedy" had no impact on me because it did not make sense to me. But you always have to ask "to what end"? You can subvert expectations in all manner of ways, that does not mean they all aim for the same kind of response. You can be amused, shocked, horrified, humbled, compelled, fascinated and (many more emotions) with unexpected twists. Really depends on the context and content of the subversion.

[@Chris-jw8vm]

I'm happy they're doing the one marvelous scene thing for this. No matter your opinion of the latest season you have to admit that the fans weren't happy so it's nice to look back and remember why we loved the show.

[@FrostAtlas]

To put it simply, subversions used to have subtle setup

[@ShadowProject01]

Enter Arya’s character arc. Great as always. Keep up the good work.

[@mrzoonix6368]

Most important lesson: "Never go full TLJ"

[@kingartemiz2xxx786]

I disagree with that, though.

[@BasicShapes]

The Red Wedding really pissed me off, but then I realized it made perfect sense because Walder Frey was trying to ally himself with the Lannisters. What a hell of a scene.