The Bible AFFIRMS LGBT? Sean McDowell vs. Matthew Vines | Pastor Reacts

[@mmttomb3]

The lengths man will go to justify his sin is astounding.

[@GarrettFemister]

So true. And he keeps using the words, “I feel.” Feelings are irrelevant when quoting the Bible.

[@Label07]

Like many Christians celebrating every holiday pagans do and say they are giving it to Christ.

[@raiova8550]

@@Label07 Literally every day in a year was a pagan holiday once. What day can we choose that wasn't used by pagans as a holiday in the past?

[@indeed8211]

the fact you dont know an American printing magnate in the 1800s changed all US bibles to replace pedophile with homosexual is astounding

[@mgntstr]

@@Label07 idk what holiday you are thinking of but Yule up in here of these parts of Scandinavia... by the time Christmas was becoming a holiday for God we spent this day in drunkenness and fornication, and punishing people who sinned against us with "presents" of firewood or rocks thrown into their houses breaking windows and doors in the coldest season of the year. Giving a holiday to Christ is good.

[@shadowm2k7]

I used to be a progressive Christian like this. I basically didn't want to change my lifestyle so i thought i could change God to fit with what I was doing. But when we meet Him, He isnt going to be the God we wanted, the God we thought he was. Hes going to be the God He says He is!!!!

[@timothyvenable3336]

Amen!

[@Astroqualia]

He won't be the God we wanted, and we won't be the creation He did, great way to finish that statement 😊

[@KM-zn3lx]

@shadow.... I'm actually afraid of meeting God, all 3 in one! Anyone else?

[@Astroqualia]

@KM-zn3lx if you're afraid of meeting God and not looking forward to it, you should change your mind about how you're living life so you wouldn't be.

[@Astroqualia]

@user-nm1yd6wg7j no, this is where a Greek lexicon comes into play. Fearing God doesn't mean afraid, it means more like an awe inspiring intense respect. Not being scared of something.

[@l456tatertot3]

Timothy 4: 3-4, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."

[@andrewmeneely9774]

Progressives like too ignore the obvious... ITS ALL.MARKETING AND A DIFFERENT GOSPEL ! AND PAUL SAYS TEACHERS OF THIS ARE ACCURSED !

[@LKBaird2016]

We are either approaching the end of the Last Days, or we're in them right now!

[@peterfraser9070]

@@LKBaird2016 then you should hunker down in a bunker somewhere, or go out on the street and rant about it.

[@stevenrhynes1556]

It is incredible how true it is.

[@Chrissycolelive]

As a woman who lived as a homosexual for 10 years “ Christian’s” in the community would do mental gymnastics to make it fit. Lie to themselves all of that. I even went to a gay church and I kid you not I felt like something was wrong. I know now that was the Holy Spirit. If the Bible says men should not lay with men what would make someone believe one could marry them? God told me in my spirit a same sex marriage is not recognized in Heaven and I’d be binding myself to death. I have been free for years I went to the source. I asked Jesus would I go to Heaven staying in a lesbian lifestyle and it wasn’t long after that I had a vision I was in Hell it was vivid and awful took time but I am free with no desire to look back.

[@waido_]

No marriage is recognized in Heaven. There is no marriage at all in Heaven.

[@aaronadamson7463]

Well, other than the marriage between Christ and the church

[@marshavoiers327]

What God has joined together, let NO MAN PUT ASUNDER OR TEAR APART. MARRIAGE IS ACKNOWLEDGED BY GOD IN HEAVEN, WHILE WE ARE HERE ON EARTH. HE EVEN SAYS THAT THE MANS BODY IS NOT HIS OWN , IT NOW BELONGS TO THE WOMAN....THE WOMAN. THE BODY OF THE WOMAN , NOW BELONGS TO THE MAN. That means 1 man, 1 woman as it was in the Beginning. A man shall cling to his wife. Not husband or wives. Not woman clinging to women or husbands.

[@f.m.e.305]

So wonderful to hear of the Lord pursuing you, you listening, yielding and responding. I welcome prayers for my daughter who also needs this holy and righteous revelation from our God and a turn to Him. Amen.

[@IsabelOrtiz-h5y]

❤❤❤

[@MerBlack]

McDowell is one of my favorite apologists because he stands firm upon God’s Word, and is incredibly respectful. This is a wonderful discussion!

[@KM-zn3lx]

I also like Mike Winger. I wish he'd debate more! Why not have Wise Disciple debate? That would be great!

[@StephenZipprich]

​@@KM-zn3lx probably because they'd get on stage together and agree on every point and there wouldn't be a debate haha

[@GarrettFemister]

Frustratingly respectful. That’s the reason he’s debating this guy instead of me. 😂

[@MamaD-db4jj]

I would say this...this debate actually got me to open my Bible to follow along!!! Thank you for that. I've read it cover to cover many years ago. Time to get back since we are living in end times. In regards to this debate...Vines needs an awaken as to the many who are attempting to twist the Bible text to suit their lifestyle! Shalom & Blessings...

[@peterfraser9070]

When you're re-reading the bible, maybe you ought to do as he did and actually look very closely and study it; cause he has gone beyond the superficial misunderstandings of people and has actually discovered the truth - and people like you can't handle it.

[@MamaD-db4jj]

@@peterfraser9070 First, you are commenting on a comment I made 10 months ago! I don't even recall the debate if this is what it was. Second, I do not even tune in to that channel anymore. So I have no idea what's going on there. Third, do not accuse me of what I can or can't handle. You do not have a clue about my life or my relationship with Y'shua! What's important is our walk and growing our relationship with Abba Father. Thank you. Shalom & Blessings 🙏 One Love ❤️

[@moosechuckle]

I’ve been a Christian for about 22 years. I’ve only been into debates and apologetics about 4 of those years, and the most shocking side is always the new age followers. That side constantly depends on bending the scriptures to meet them where they are, and not bending themselves to meet the scriptures. The ideology of “acceptance is love” and “love without expectation.” I cannot fathom how one can read Christ’s interactions with people, and assume that he doesn’t call us to turn away from our sinful lives, and change.

[@shadowm2k7]

Yes this is true. This was me until about a month ago when God WOKE ME UP 😭😭😭!!! I was twisting scripture to suit myself & the life I wanted!!! I would justify it with things the Bible says like "Come as you are" etc. Without leaving changed !

[@moosechuckle]

@@shadowm2k7 I think we all have that experience to a certain extent; however, there has to come a time when you ask, “what if I’m wrong?” I think another part is an unwillingness to listen to opposing views. There’s a delicacy there, where you may not want to listen to hardcore atheists arguments at the beginning of your salvation, but at some point you want to make sure what you believe is true. Or, at the very least, fully understand the opposite side.

[@radscorpion8]

@@moosechuckle I don't really see it as being shocking in the sense that new age followers simply don't take the bible as seriously as you do. They generally consider the bible to either be a flawed document with many errors or one that is highly interpretable. Either way the end result is an interpretation that falls in line with the core new age philosophy which they have read or heard from other new age authors and channellers / mediums. It would be no different than an atheist only taking parts of the bible that are historically reliable and ignoring the parts that may only be based on limited testimony, for example. So when you're reading one of Christ's interactions, they could just take it to be either highly metaphorical language or just ignore certain parts of the bible as being untrustworthy and not words that Jesus really said. Either that or they just don't know because, it is also possible that many new age believers never read the whole bible to begin with. Personally I am partial to new age thinking, but that's only because I see evidence that it works in the real world, and many independent testimonies that agree on working procedures. With monotheistic, mainstream religions there appears to be very little of this evidence (just go to church, pray, but usually prayers do nothing), or what little evidence for prayer exists could be better explained by new age thinking than the bible. If the church could make a more appealing case for religion I would definitely be open to it, but if its just baseless claims that their scripture is the holy word of God and calls to read the scripture, I simply can't take it seriously, anymore than a Christian would take seriously the idea that the book of Zeus is the holy word of Zeus, and that they should follow the things Zeus' son said and did. I am sorry, but to most of the world Christian ideas are just superstitions and will likely remain that way until solid evidence is presented suggesting otherwise

[@Mommybecca9804]

​@robertstephenson6806 What about in the sermon on the mount where Jesus said just *looking* with lust is committing adultery in ones heart? Also, remembering that Jesus was a Jew who kept the law, & considered the OT (that they already had), as Holy scriptures (from God), & that Jesus (2nd person in the Trinity, & described as "the Word") IS God...what was said about sexual sin in the OT *was* said by Jesus.

[@shydalelewis3966]

​​@@radscorpion8have you actually done what Jesus said to do? And not some church. It's not all about going to church and prayer it'd sad how we don't even know the reason for Jesus religion isn't the answer but Jesus is. If you'd actually read the gospels and do the things God says to do you'd be very surprised in the world you think was just physical when there's actually lots of spirituality that takes place. Most non believers have trouble with spirituality since they think they dont experience any which isn't true this hole world is down spirituality, what we do physically is a result of things most people don't have the ability to see. I wouldn't wanna be a person who can see demons everyday naturally that sucks but alteast they know life for what it truly is and that's there is spirituality therefore some higher being must exist and is eternal.

[@Mamachuaof3]

This is amazing to listen to!!!! It was SO obvious that he was not reading the Bible, he was seeing what he wanted rather than Gods clear word!

[@tomgarrison5313]

Well, you need to read the bible to get God's perspective on the issue.

[@Boethius411]

GDSWHTHORYSSRTHTMSSGSYSWHTYTHNKSCLR Ancient Hebrew was written with no vowels and no punctuation and there was no system developed to distinguish what they were and where they should go until the Masoretes created one and added accents during the Middle Ages. So I repeat, How sure are you about that clear message?

[@GarrettFemister]

Yes, he just keeps bringing his “feelings” into this.

[@advancedstupidity5459]

One of the best points against homosexual relationships is that the Bible DOESN'T have any concept of sexual orientation. The Bible clearly condemns sexual acts between two men or two women. It says nothing about their orientation because it doesn't need to. It's not a condemnation of the person, but the act. It's so interesting how Vines frames it as "permanent orientation," suggesting that changing your sexual orientation is impossible which isn't true. Many Christians were once homosexual and were able to defeat that struggle once they became Christian. It's just a preference for one thing and distaste for another, and those preferences can and do change all the time.

[@MiniLinlin]

Meanwhile, many people seem scared of celibacy. However, apparently the less sex a person has, the less the brain will desire it. Personally, I understand if people may be romantically attracted to someone of the same sex, but it's inevitable that many people regardless of orientation will become defensive when someone suggests it may be better not to have sex.

[@advancedstupidity5459]

@@MiniLinlin As a man who is finally practicing celibacy in my relationship for the first time, it's so much better too. Sure, it's difficult sometimes, but if we make it to marriage it will be so rewarding and way more special. Self control is one of the most ignored and underrated virtues in our society. We live in a culture that is obsessed with instant gratification and it's severely damaged our social fabric in more ways than just sexually. True freedom and liberation comes from breaking the shackles of sin. People find living under God's law to be restrictive, but being a slave to your own selfish desires is far worse. You can be temporarily happy this way, but true joy comes from submission to God's will to give your life purpose. So in regard to homosexuality, while embracing that sexual preference as an identity and living that "lifestyle" may make you feel good, the happiness that comes from it is fleeting. Being able to deny that part of yourself and follow God may be difficult, but it's ultimately the choice that brings joy and spiritual satisfaction.

[@MiniLinlin]

@@advancedstupidity5459 I agree with that. Celibacy doesn't have to be that scary thing a lot of people make it out to be. I definitely think it's very admirable for anyone to decide on celibacy as a way of living life or navigating relationships, but it's definitely very unpopular. As for me, I only wish peace to those that come to value this virtue and that want to give it honor.

[@Astroqualia]

​@MiniLinlin that's a good point, and that's also true about literally everything, from drugs, to any type of mental stimulation, food, water, thinking, etc etc

[@masteringr6714]

The point about it being an act and not a part of who someone is is sooo important. The only reason we think it is a part of who someone is in our modern culture is because of the sexual revolution. Sex has now become a part of who we are and not an act that is performed for a purpose. By the way, this applies for everyone, regardless of which side of the fence they are on.

[@Bluuuz]

Thank you so much for this analysis. I am in a church in England that is struggling with this topic and there are some vocal Vines fans who sound so ‘reasonable’ but are misleading so many away from core scripture. This has been really useful in helping me stand up to their arguments.

[@CassTeaElle]

Just like most deconstructionists, Matthew doesn't seem particularly interested in proving himself right. Just trying to prove someone else wrong. He puts all the responsibility on Sean to prove that we can't extrapolate a pro-gay message from the Bible, but I wish Sean would have pushed back more and insisted that Matthew explain (using scripture) why he thinks we CAN extrapolate a pro-gay message from the Bible. Because Matthew did absolutely nothing to prove that point.

[@andrewmeneely9774]

He can't the Bible condemns homosexuality .. IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS . IT JUST DOES OVER AND OVER . T

[@CassTeaElle]

@@andrewmeneely9774 yes, that was the point of my comment

[@tetrahydra710]

I agree because from a debate perspective, his points would have no value or base, so the argument would be rendered invalid.

[@peterfraser9070]

So gay people - made by God as we always have been - are to be assumed to be guilty until proven innocent? Matthew presented his case very eloquently and provide his points to be right; your prejudice is getting in the way of accepting the truth of what he says.

[@CassTeaElle]

@@peterfraser9070 I don't have any prejudice. I'm simply following the truth of scripture. He did not give good reasoning for his views... all of Matthew Vines' theological views on the topic of homosexuality are extremely easily refuted by a careful examination of the text. And I most certainly never claimed that someone is "guilty until proven innocent" just because they have same-sex attraction. I have same-sex attraction myself. Your comment is just completely ridiculous.

[@josmclove4426]

Useless channels get millions of views and this important channel gets next to nothing! People are missing out 😢

[@GarrettFemister]

Well said. I just found this podcast.

[@AbsoluteTruth57]

Let's pray they seek God and their eyes open before he returns.

[@MODO100percent]

This channel has great topics, I would recommend this channel even though I disagree with Nate on multiple things

[@looks-human]

This is a useless channel aswell

[@joshlin9693]

Same tactic that the serpent used on Eve...Did God say...? We often just don't want to agree with what God says. He just wants it his own way and for Christians to be in agreement so that everyone feels good about their activities.

[@Theonly_Onyx]

Amen.

[@prockfisherman8661]

Man i wish i could explain the bible like Sean McDowell.

[@ariadneferreira2252]

Me too! He is absolutely amazing.

[@whiteheart7915]

I love your facial expressions when Sean makes a good point, you look like a proud father. Recently discovered your channel and have really enjoyed your content. I hope God blesses your ministry and you continue to promote the Gospel through your videos!

[@woodcookers408]

It's really cool to see Sean engaged in a debate. I've appreciated his grace-filled and respectful discussions with people who have very different views from his, but it's also nice to see him a little more on the offensive. And yes, i realize he does this a lot - it's just not what I'm used to seeing on his channel. Love it. Good stuff. Oh, and great commentary, Nate.

[@DanDelzell]

I can't believe I only recently found your videos. These are excellent examples of rightly handling the word of truth.

[@bartididthat]

I love how he’s always relies on the scripture to back up his own views. Super informative

[@JSRINTX]

Here's the question, is, Jesus, your Lord, and savior only on your terms or on his? I'm the first to admit i'm a sinner, I fall short a lot. The one thing I don't do is try to claim that my shortcomings are not shortcoming. You can't repent if you don't believe what you're doing is wrong.

[@bullish3584]

Facts. I do believe Jesus is my salvation. I don't believe that I am worthy, I am still a sinner who falls short of God, and it is going to be his perfect judgment on my acknowledged wrongdoings. I pray to know him better.

[@mattparksmusic]

Nate, your content is absolutely excellent. I have one technical suggestion for you though: Would you please try to equalize the volume output of your microphone with the videos you watch? This is a minor issue, but it is across much of your video library (of which I have recently watched probably 30-50 videos). Should be a very easy fix and it will make it where we, your admiring audience, do not have to adjust volume depending on who is talking. Thank you brother, and please keep these videos coming. It is so helpful to hear a careful analysis of arguments the way you do it.

[@CKDNatedogg]

Coming up on 30 years of having given my life to Christ and only recently have come to appreciate theological debate. Alot of what Ive seen being taught, whether willfully or through ignorance, is frightening. Lots of friends have made cases for what may have been obvious once, is now blurred and convoluted. Admittedly was once content with just leaving things at "well we both love Jesus, thats enough." How can we confess love for God if we dont keep His commands? We're supposed to let His Word transform us and not try to tranform the Word to fit our lives.

[@seeqr9]

s slavery example is actually and argument against his position. Pro slavers were making the same argument as he is for his position.

[@jonathanferrero7305]

I can't LIKE👍 this video enough! Awesome video! Great debate from Sean, with great commentary to top! I recently discovered your videos, and I'm absolutely loving them! They're a huge blessing and encouragement! Keep up the great work!

[@GroovyGabe]

McDowell did the online version of a few of my classes at Biola. I loved listening to his lectures!

[@xavierharris9065]

It would have been better to say, "We Need to Write a Modern Bible so that there is no Sin." And as for Gen. 2: 22-23, "What is a Woman?"😂😂

[@psyck]

A woman is your momma. 😂

[@xavierharris9065]

@@psyck but what are "Mommas" Pronouns 🤔 😆 🤣

[@JW-sg7tt]

@@theLionandtheLamb1now you get it! 😂

[@noahm44]

Persons that can get pregnant*

[@Chrissiela]

What is a woman?? Interesting question.👍 I asked the same question night before last on his video about women teachers. I actually think it's a very relevant question when it comes to topics like these because of the fact that scripture uses Adam and Eve (and the marriage relationship) as a figure/type for Christ (THE man) and the Church (THE woman). That's of significant importance, as has been pointed out repeatedly on this channel in relation to both topics, yet it needs to be understood that when it comes to Christ and the church, THE "woman" (typified in EVE) is made up of BOTH women AND MEN (according to the flesh). Paul, who also used Mary (mother of Jesus) as a figure for "the church" (those IN WHOM "Christ" - THE "man" - is to be formed, through which "the SONs of God" are to be made manifest), spoke of HIS OWN "travail in birth" ("as A WOMAN" whose hour is come" - John 16:21 ) as "part of the process he went through as he went from being "a child" to becoming "a man." This is something Jesus told his disciples (MALE, according to flesh) they would all have to go through. And this language is not new to the NT (where both Jesus and Paul use it), it is also used in the OT by Isaiah, Jeremiah and Zechariah (if I'm recalling correctly, I'd have to look it up). It's all very facinating!! And if it weren't for the specific passages about sexual immorality and that which is considered "an abomination," I'd have to wonder if getting hung up (so to speak) on the type/shadow is necessary.

[@zaoific]

Been loving the Pastor Reacts and Debate Teacher Reacts series.

[@duaneburcham8445]

Does anyone else think the 2 guys sound like each other? I had to quit just listening and actually watch it so I could tell who was talking.

[@CelticSpiritsCoven]

Same here. I don't know who's talking unless I watch this. I had another browser open, and I was completely lost just hearing their voices.

[@Mommybecca9804]

Yes! Glad to know I wasn't the only one😏. I had to actually watch, not just listen. 😊

[@kathrynvessey4659]

Not at all.

[@llcoolray3000]

Yes, they sound identical. Made this a tough listen. Sounded like someone's internal monologue arguing with themself.

[@spndrtwentythree5239]

Same I got confused on who was talking

[@daesong1378]

Logos will always be a legacy for Dr Heiser to me. May he rest in peace. 🙏

[@Alan112573]

Let's pray for Matthew's salvation! What a trophy of God's grace he would be

[@leluyaa]

Amen ❤

[@Jomarshun]

1:03:00 I was EXACTLY thinking that same scripture a couple of seconds before you answered, "yes, there is".

[@TheLotusPanther]

I found this really profound from a teaching perspective. Lots of good truth and enjoying your vids.

[@narclem]

Am I missing something or doesn’t Paul’s writing in Romans 1 speak explicitly enough with relevance to the issue?

[@timffoster]

Vines is claiming that gay **identity** is never addressed in the Bible, so gay marriage is a new concept that needs to be affirmed by the Church. With this in hand, Vines is dismissing all passages that talk about gay *behavior*, including Rom 1.

[@staciewittenmyer1011]

​@@timffosterthe "gay behavior" in rome was not lgbt marriage. It was sex cults that worshipped by having sex with someone representing a pagan god. that is not anything like a lgbt family.

[@Peace-on-earth771]

and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Romans 1:27,

[@kathrynvessey4659]

Yes… if we can be convinced that these lifestyles are based on innate identities, rather than to the putting into action of sinful desires, then Vines has a point. The Bible does not support this argument.

[@moses9647]

​​@@kathrynvessey4659but I think science has relatively confirmed that sexual orientation is not a choice. even the church at large has moved away from "being gay is a sin" to "practicing homosexuality is a sin". The Bible suggests both are a sin but there's been a movement to acts and not disposition (hate the sin, love the sinner). The failure of things like conversion therapy is evidence of this.

[@METALHEADMUSIC9999]

i hereby nominate you for all biblical debates from here until the end of time. That is all. Thank you for your insight and knowledge. God bless.

[@beckybates543]

Thank you for this! I stumbled upon this and will start following thanks!!

[@jeffreywp]

You are spot-on at 28:42 to point out that sexual orientation was an early 20th century invention of Freud and the (de)evolution of sexuality being about who you are. Excellent point. Thanks for providing your insights throughout this discussion.

[@anthonyd.1428]

It was made mainstream by a wicked man named Dr. John Money. Look him up and his work if you have a strong stomach.

[@Murk_Matter]

Ive heard of that man by Voddie Baucham and i say i was shocked to learn about this especially since he coins the terms people use now

[@WalkerJani]

It is a early 20th Century Construct, That being said There was no need for sexual orientation then Because Anything But a biblical marriage was frowned upon, if not worse, Killed. But the bible was SUPER clear that what Modern day Homosexuality is, its strictly forbidden, and is an abomination to God. Everyone understood this 2000 years ago, It just shows how misguided and Demonically influenced some people are today.

[@Boethius411]

Except that Karl Heinrich Ulrichs was the first person to speak about orientation a good 50 years prior to Freud’s sexual development theory. So it’s not actually spot on. Also Freud believed that we were all constitutionally bisexual at birth… meaning that he was fundamentally opposed to the idea of orientation pointing us in one way or another. He’s just wrong to pin any of this on Freud or his contemporaries or any of their kooky ideas.

[@Boethius411]

Magnus Hirschfeld also predates Freud and like Ulrichs was pro the concept of orientation where as Freud was opposed to it.

[@bamaboi49]

I just watched your videos 2 days ago. I’ve never sat and watched discussions like this. And I am now interested.

[@ericmiller6828]

Nate you are a freaking super hero. I'm so addicted to watching these reacts (Debate or Pastor). Keep up the work my man. What I love is how you dismantle the power behind persuasive rhetoric and bring truth back to the forefront.

[@seaglass.jen86]

20 minutes in and already this is so rich. Thank you.

[@aaronwalcott513]

"And let us not be many teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." If he's not willing to bring his book in line with the scripture, he's leaving himself open to forcing God's divine alignment, and that's a risk no one should be willing to take.

[@praveenkumarbunsee2220]

I recently found your channel. Your careful analysis of both sides in a debate is good stuff. Much appreciation from here in Trinidad 🇹🇹.

[@smartazz61]

The Bible does say you must be celibate if you're gay. How? It says man shall not lie with man as with a woman. Why do you need frosting on that cake?

[@BreadBaker33]

This was actually exciting! Please do more b of these videos!

[@jovondeonte89]

Sean destroyed him. crazy how Matthew still hasn't repented after being proven wrong

[@dansaber4427]

You can be LGBT and Christian 👨‍❤️‍👨

[@junkim5853]

@@dansaber4427 I disagree it's like saying you can be an atheist and be a Christian at the same time.

[@dansaber4427]

@@junkim5853 God created everyone with a unique orientation. As unique as your God-Given fingerprints. No Two are the same. One of the letters is for you. You are included. No exceptions. Zero excuses.

[@junkim5853]

@dansaber4427 where did I say the atheist and a Christian are the same? Please read properly. The Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, and Christians for thousands of years always believed it. Denying that homosexuality is a sin is like denying that atheism is a sin for a Christian.

[@samueladams1775]

@junkim5853 are you saying Jesus is wrong? I ask, because you contradict the Old Testament and what Jesus said. God said homosexuality is an abomination.

[@TheTrailLeastTraveled]

Matthew 7: 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[@jeremypeirce3735]

I would say, the biblical writers didn’t have a 21st century understanding of alcoholism either, so if a person is genetically predisposed to addiction or violence, does that mean they’re not accountable for their behavior?

[@psyck]

They may not have known it as the disease we know it as today but they sure as heck knew it was a disease. If you read the Bible, they knew so much about human behavior. Genetic and circumstances… those are our burdens to bear and the weight of those burdens are different for everyone. Definitely not an excuse for bad behavior. That’s why I think fellowship is important. Not just during church but to have a good fellowship of friends and family around you. Some people can handle more weight than they are burdened with and can help those being crushed by their burdens.

[@n1njachikin]

Proneness to temptation is not impossible to overcome. My family has a history of alcohol addiction. I’ve simply chosen not to drink.

[@psyck]

@@n1njachikin my family didn’t really drink and I became an alcoholic. We all have our choices to make and burdens to carry.

[@heidiherrick5992]

Ephesians 5:18: "Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery.

[@lizwes7438]

Also mentions how if you have hate for someone that you have murdered them in your heart, which is a sin. Feeling a little lazy to cite the verse properly, but if you're curious you can look it up. Human nature has been the same since the dawn of time.

[@therealsenpaiii6674]

I don't know if you'll see this but I'm working to be a pastor and I've been watching your videos and it's helped answer a lot of questions. The context and meaning etc

[@j96569]

Here comes my rant. When we as Christians keep on saying "Look, it's clearly written here in Scripture" and they keep answering "I don't believe so", when do we flip the table and get on with the actual harvest? This clearly isn't fruitful and at some point we should accept we are throwing pearls before swine. The hours and hours of debate and discussions of this topic on YT means we've addressed it. We can't take responsibility for other people's response to God's moral law. Can't the (universal) Church have a new council, make the declaration, and anathema this teaching so we can move on?

[@timffoster]

But the discussion was indeed fruitful. It teaches people how to think biblically, if nothing else. Identifying and rejecting false Doctrine (as seen in Ephesians 4) is one of the works of the church. Pronouncing anathemas is important, but gospel preaching is not the main mandate for the church. Making disciples is. And disciples need to know how to divide truth from falsity.

[@kathrynvessey4659]

Amen to that… I pray that more Christians are equipped to contend for the faith… I am trying…

[@gramajan4]

Wow, your "One Flesh" analogy is beautiful, thank you for that!

[@UnCustomMary_Luke10]

Couples that cannot have children can adopt orphans, which may be what God had in mind to give orphans and infertile couples that ability to make a family and give orphans a home. Older people people marry to bless their union in Gods name. And they never mention Romans 1 26-32.

[@dannik9932]

Homosexuals can argue for adoption as well. They cannot argue against Genesis 2:8-25 and the creation of woman being from man and returning to him in marriage.

[@RonHilton]

Thsnks Nate. Great analysis as always.

[@masteringr6714]

I sincerely feel bad for Matthew. His spirit is genuinely trying to cling to Christ but his flesh is clinging on, even more powerfully, to his desires. Because of this he is doing everything in his power to figure out a way to make the text maybe, possibly, leave open the idea that a marriage can be between two people of the same sex. You talked about this in another video but we must to die to ourselves DAILY. Some desires may not go away but they are just that, desires, and nothing more. They do not define WHO we are, only Christ can. I am praying for you Matthew!

[@LennyChildOfJesus]

“We were born this way!” Yeah and Christ said to be be born again.

[@jackjumper4231]

1:08:08 The closing exchange sums up why we should reject this entire notion of same sex marriage. His greatest argument was twisting the words of his opponent taking a minor point it was put out there to undergird the main point, and attacking it, as if it was his only argument. They don’t want the truth. They want their way.

[@butterpecan5642]

I rewinded a few times just to listen to the intro music before watching the rest of the video. Very catchy beat

[@adifferentangle7064]

This did my head in. Obvioudly if you're lining up for the gates of hell when you die because of your "partnership", your "marriage" is not biblically legitimate. 😂

[@gowest8184]

I'm going to have to watch this video twice. Or maybe 3 times. There's a lot of good info in here and I feel like I cannot capture it all in one watch. Great stuff.

[@havocsquaddropout6681]

That's not a debate, its a hermeneutics class for Vines. Kudos to Sean!

[@DentalonRocks]

So much respect for Sean. Man hé can explain so good. And so calm. With someone Who doesnt taken responsebillity

[@KM-zn3lx]

Right a false teacher won't acknowledge when they're wrong because they know they're wrong, they just want to twist truth to make it fit. A round peg in a square hole!

[@R3ldi]

Unfortunately Vines backed out of a potential debate with White on “does the New Testament affirm same sex marriage.”

[@kanji3945]

As he should have

[@EmberBright2077]

If you're referring to James White, that is for the best. He would only set the conversation back.

[@R3ldi]

@@EmberBright2077 back to the scriptures 😏

[@gregorybarrett4998]

Nate, I love your material and the way you handle it. Suan Sunna recently put out a video discussing three things he came to unlearn in the course of his Christian walk. One of them involved what he described as his naive assumption that, if we limit the field to include only devout, educated, articulate, intelligent, honest Christians who sincerely desire to align themselves with revelation, then simply arguing from Scripture will be sufficient to establish agreement, unity, and peace. Suan suggested two models as analogies for the Church: the first is something like a university, in which we try to persuade one another through reasoned and evidence-based argumentation; and the second is something like a well-ordered society, in which those matters unyielding to such persuasion can nonetheless be resolved whether through legislation or through executive operation or through judicial verdict. He eventually came to the conclusion that persuasion is valuable but insufficient even in the ideal condition and that therefore God's wise design includes provisions for the various otherwise intractable conditions.

[@foolish_god]

Vines talks about how the church has gotten things wrong. This shows how the church can be wrong. It leads to questioning what else they could be wrong about. This adds the framework by which to judge the currently accepted beliefs. This applies then to gay marriage What Vines, McDowell, and Nate don't see is how if Vines gay marriage argument becomes the standard, his own framework then applies to him. Let's say the church now accepts how gay marriage is good. NOW: the church has been wrong in the past. It could be wrong now. Therefore, we should question and destroy this new normal that the church has established as a standard.

[@Tristan-fz8jg]

This conversation in a nutshell. McDowell: (Reads scripture) Vines: "Thats wrong because its your inserted interpretation..." "Context matters" McDowell: (Shows context) Vines: "It's not about the context, it's about the information we don't have..." McDowell: (Shows information we DO have) Vines: "We've potentially interpreted this information wrong" McDowell: "Is there any scripture that would back up your argument?" Vines: "I think..."

[@bamaboy7489]

Mcdowell is fed up with vines ignorance lol

[@aubrieweaver2302]

This video is wonderful! Love your content! It reminds me a lot of Isaac from the Daily Disciple channel: firmly speaking truth in love!

[@carlpeterson8182]

It is fine if part of good fruit is teaching those to live out the fruit of the Spirit and living those out oneself. One of the fruit of the Spirit is goodness. WE are good when we obey the Lord and His scripture. So that does not help Vines at all. There is also self-control. One cannot engage in sexual immorality because one has self-control.

[@samanthawise8991]

I think I saw you at the Brentwood, TN Unshaken event this past weekend. I knew I recognized you from somewhere but I couldn’t quite remember where from. I am terrible with names and faces. 😅 Then I saw this video and you mentioned Summit Ministries and I remembered the name of the booth I saw you at. Then it just clicked. I went there to see Frank Turek because his lectures and books were one of the main reasons I became a Christian. But it was also really cool to see other people from the apologetics community there as well.

[@suebethiantexas2475]

A phychiatrist trying to help a family member told me in the early 90s that it is so sad about the gay issues because they can’t be helped or his profession will be sued in court.

[@killiemon]

Are you talking about gay conversation therapy? There is no evidence it works and lots that it is incredibly harmful and abusive. That's why it's being outlawed in many jurisdictions.

[@RebeccaK-ke9mt]

I have been a Christian all my life. I have recently started my spiritual journey, being one in the spirit with God. There is a big difference that I am now only just learning. I used to believe the way to Jesus was to do good, I’m now learning that it comes from the texts. Channels like yours is helping with my journey. Thank you, and God bless.

[@DS-ld8ns]

Huh, Doing God isn't the way to Jesus, Doing good For Goodness sake is GOOD Jesus approves.

[@justgreatmagic]

Why does the LGBT community think the things they do are something new? Human nature is the same today as it was in the days of Noah, Moses, Lott. The Bible is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow.

[@timffoster]

They think it's new because they're talking about "identity", not action. if you're the sort of fellow who falls for that line of thinking, then yeah, you think new. Christians should be the first to spot and rebut that particular lie.

[@teresatedder2501]

That's what I don't understand about their thinking and rationale as well. Here's a question: how do other creatures such as dogs or cats know about the instinctual and natural act of sex? It's not something they sit around and have to come up with...they just know and act upon it. And male dogs aren't going out and having relations with other male dogs (it's a ridiculous example, I know...but it's applicable). And the natural process of male and female is instinctual...God given and created. So anything outside of that (hence, the God given order) is not his design or purpose...even for heterosexuals. So, how is this a new concept? Did people back in early biblical times need a social influence to lead them into sexual immortality? If the devil was in the garden of Eden influencing Adam and Eve how is it that other humans (e.g., those in the days of Noah) are exempt from the same influence?? Sex outside of marriage between man and woman is wrong. I'm sick of this being twisted.

[@justgreatmagic]

@@teresatedder2501 it’s like when a baby is born and craws to attach to the mothers bosom , they just know what to do.

[@timffoster]

in fairness, Matt V is not trying to say that *homosexuality* is new - he's trying to say that *gay identity* is new. He's hoping people will think there's a difference. But the wording in Lev 18 and 20 precludes that distinction, since it condemns all forms of the act, period.

[@justgreatmagic]

@@timffoster correct, but it isn’t. It’s our way of reshaping sin and behavior.

[@rick09hunter]

This videos should have more likes!!!

[@hamasathecold7842]

I would be interested in hearing your response to Wesley Hill, he has some very engaging and helpful thoughts on this topic, and as a celibate Christian with same sex attraction I’ve found his thoughts helpful for years. He has always been respectful of the text, and lives out the teachings of Scripture in his day to day.

[@Soulja4ChristWeAreAtWar]

It is specifically discussed in Leviticus and Romans.

[@narclem]

So it is either Vines is extremely ignorant and untrained in the Word of God or he is willfully disobedient. Neither of which are good.

[@samueladams1775]

I suspect he is willfully disobedient and tries to justify his sin by saying it isn't a sin/abomination.

[@JW-sg7tt]

The mental gymnastics are mind boggling.

[@MisterRose90]

You know. I see a theme, for what it's worth, reflected in the relationship between Christ and the church and between man and women. Acceptance of this comes with a no small amount of humility. There is a reason that that analogy is used. The theme seems to be something like guidance and protection. The one with greater wisdom guides and protects one of lesser wisdom. The dynamic between the man an the women reflects the service between the lesser being and the greater being. There is and exchange of service between the two parties. In the context of marriage it's the women being guided and protected for by the man. In the context of the relationship of the church, it's The Lord guiding and protecting his sheep and his sheep doing as they're commanded just as you would expect your wife to do as you command. I hope I explaining this in a way that makes sense. If you are seeing this and you are thinking that I belittling women then you have missed the point. All our service is essential and appropriated and anyone who is willing to enter into that service should be shown gratitude for that service and rewarded. That in itself is another theme that could be discussed.

[@chaseorosco9017]

I’d love to see you do Dr. White’s dialogues with Alma Alred.

[@PalmavePo]

That's the problem, now it's all about experiences and feelings. The play on words and wokeness. It's always about how Vines reads this and that as what he wants to interpret as. Feelings, that's all he is.

[@jkaise42]

Sean is awesome also very welcoming when it comes to talking with people from both sides.

[@Warhol-jb9zx]

In the ancient world, same-sex behavior was widely considered to be a vice of excess that might tempt anyone, like gluttony or drunkenness. Same-sex attraction wasn’t understood as the sexual orientation of a small minority of people. Affirming Christians are not overturning the Christian tradition on LGBTQ people-until recent decades, there has been no Christian tradition on LGBTQ people.

[@benlokibryant]

Leviticus 18:22? Romans 1:26? Leviticus 20:13? Arn't these all verses saying homosexuality it wrong?

[@B.r.o.o.o]

Ptr. Voddie addressed Vine's claims, along with other false teachers(pro-lgbt pastors) in one of his teachings. I hope you can react to that. that would be awesome. Ptr.Voddie's statements were very Bible based and firm.

[@ss7cindersh]

When we are exegeting a passage we should be asking why was this passage written. When it comes to Genesis 2, an argument could be made that it tells creation details differently than chapter 1 where it says that on the 6th day God created man and woman. So we do not really need the details of chapter 2 for creation purposes. We would not need more detail than we got in chapter 1. This means chapter 2 serves a different purpose. I would argue that Genesis chapter 2 is written specifically to give the definitive answer to what marriage is to look like and provide insight into why it should be that a marriage is to be the union of one man and one woman. Anything other than that by default is contrary to what God has created and established.

[@bethfollowerofChrist]

you always make a better argument with scripture. Everything we say should point back to The text to The Word to The Truth

[@Soulja4ChristWeAreAtWar]

No text? The Bible is explicit about it in Leviticus and Romans. 🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦

[@mesafamily5830]

Great video once again! This Vines guy is going through the ringer: First James White, then McDowell, now my man here! lol

[@jra4127]

This conversation has me longing for Christ’s return. This world needs Jesus so bad.

[@joshuawoodin]

Well done nate I learn alot about debate strategy on top of watching modern day debate channel I'm excited and hope you review david woods debates he is doing 2 in November I believe 1 against a muslim and 1 against an atheist. Please review his debates soon ?

[@zacdredge3859]

Nate falling more into Debate Teacher Reacts as the dialogue progresses is the best part of this video. Think he forgot by the end. 😂

[@bennettlacour3095]

McDowell crushed it. Would have liked to see him press Vines on the biblical “principles” that support same sex marriage.

[@krystallos81]

God isn’t what we want him to be, he is what we need him to be.

[@pamelamohn5931]

What I hear with this "debate" is one side is interested in God's Word, and the other side is interested in arguing (although politely)and trying to validate his own view.

[@archangel2174]

I'm wondering why Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 weren't brought up in the debate. If anyone can explain that, that'd be great. I feel as though a great case against homosexuality could be made there.

[@libertylover4575]

When he read the Galatians list of the fruits, I wish Sean had pointed out that SELF-CONTROL is NOT being exercised if a man gives in to list for other men, as it’s described in Romans 1.

[@gregariousguru]

This page is great 👍

[@gary4034]

Historical problem with in Christian church has been a weak understanding of scripture, that has allowed false doctrines to flourish. Some would argue it has always been. Thanks for bringing thought provoking material. God bless 🇬🇧🙏

[@butterpecan5642]

@11:55, he says, "i supposed it's a question of how broad it is".........immediately the verse "BROAD is the path that leads to destruction".

[@stevedalley8378]

Genesis 19, Leviticus20, Romans1. Mark4 Ephesians4.✝🛐

[@royrichards345]

Honestly the issues I encounter when pondering these matters is not what the Bible teaches about it, its pretty clear to me. My own mental obstacles usually come when they tell you they were born that way or, what are they supposed to do? Since they can't help their attraction. What I found is that some people resort to Matthew 19:12, saying they should basically stay in constant rejection of their attraction and so relinquish any hope of marriage. Empathically I could just never tell anyone that this is what they're supposed to do... Any advice or reading material in this regard would be great, since I really want to form solid ground to stand on in this matter, given that I've made several lgbt and non-christian friends in University and the topics do come up quite often.

[@mdace34]

Here’s the thing, if same sex relations is biblically sinful it’s an obvious conclusion that EVEN IF someone has those feelings, they must reject them as sinful feelings. Any other argument or reasoning in an attempt to justify those sinful feelings would lead to a slippery slope which would cause people to try to justify other sinful feelings.

[@tinameyer7080]

Having same sex attraction is NO different than our attractions to MANY sinful things/behaviors. When convicted, we are to turn from our sinful thoughts/ways. We ALL struggle with sin. Sometimes we are successful in dying to the flesh...other times, we are not so successful. Hence our NEED for a Savior.

[@mjmh7050]

I think at the end of the day it's a hard truth. We have to deny a lot to follow the Lord. I've felt that same way, but as I get older I see that there is so much brokenness. It used to see very unique to me, but it seems less unique now that I have see/experienced more pain in life. Compassion is good. Christ had a lot of compassion, so you don't have to give that up. But you do have to truly believe that Christ is better than what this world says we have to have. I have many friends who have not married (and wanted to), and had to deny their desires (though I know it's different). Many things on this earth are painful and unfair. Weve come to believe our desires are us, but they are not our identity. Those are just some thoughts Hope you find truth and wisdom.

[@paulajames6149]

I had watched this full debate awhile back. So good to hear your thoughts on it. There is no support for gay marriage in the Bible and I would say it is quite the opposite. The Bible opposes that lifestyle and the deception of it. I must say Sean generally is mild mannered and generous/gracious in conversations and interactions with those of different opinions. I saw him getting worked up which surprised me. I think it is nice to see his passion come out and to see him fight for truth. Great job Sean.

[@pamelamohn5931]

God's Word is meant to change us; not the other way around.

[@ProudChristian73]

I didn’t notice this the first time I watched it, but when Sean starts hitting Matthew with the facts he is heavy chest breathing (watch his chest and follow along with your breathing to see how panicked and more than likely angry he is)! These people are absolute geniuses at manipulating the Bible text to confirm their sin! Also it is absolutely not understandable how anyone could use the Bible to back slavery, which is why slave owners wouldn’t allow slaves to not only learn to read but not have a Bible. It’s clearly talking about indentured servitude, and for no longer than 7 years! The people like Matthew remind me of 2 Timothy 4:3-4 “For a time is coming when people no longer listen to sound doctrine. They will follow their own desires and will seek teachers who will tell them what their itching ears desire. They will reject truth and chase myths” (Paraphrased)!

[@daydee4218]

I watched Matthew Vines years ago and he loves to Cherry pick scriptures to fit his belief even when it's clear. That is the reason he can't back up anything from the scriptures. It's still good to watch this kind of debate though where both are respectful to each other.