The Biggest AFR Target MISTAKE Tuners Make?

[@hpa101]

You asked for more track footage, engine noises and b-roll. We present to you less of these things, in the form of a podcast. You're welcome. Stream via your favourite service here: www.hpatechtorque.com/ And merch yourself here: shop.hpacademy.com/- Taz

[@satanaz]

wat we asked for moar you gave us less? :(

[@hpa101]

You're not the boss of me, I do what I want - Taz. (PS: We still try to give you more of those other things in video content, just seemed like a good introduction to the podcasts 🖖 )

[@voodootuning2949]

It's really interesting hearing you mention finding best performance at 11.5 AFR on that GTR. I remember years ago some "pro tuner" berating me for running 11-odd AFR on a (completely different) engine. Telling me my engine must run like crap because he'd tuned so many GTRs and he'd "Never go richer than 12.5" 😏 Ahh, internet experts on car forums. Certainly don't miss those days! 😂

[@Danger_mouse]

Andre, thanks for the great explanation of the complex relationship between all these factors. I'm certainly no tuning expert, far from it, but we had to learn this stuff for ourselves years and years ago on our old 910 Turbo Bluebird rally car. It ran to Group A engine specs including no intercooler, 100 oct avgas fuel and an old Haltech E6 ecu. I had fixated myself with running 1bar of boost and with careful road tuning was able to get a very torquey, usable engine that didn't hurt itself for 3 seasons. Later I used the drive train in a road shell as a second car and obviously couldn't run avgas any longer. Using 98 Oct unleaded, dropping the boost to 13psi from 15, the car actually made MORE power due to being able to add more timing in and run leaner than we had when racing 🙂 The '1 bar boost' mentality meant we had to pull timing to prevent knock, and then add fuel to cool the excess turbo temps we saw on the pyro.... You live, and you learn. Great content.

[@hpa101]

The old story of 'giving the engine what it wants' is always easy to overlook, and sometimes when it comes to boost, less may actually be more - Andre

[@Danger_mouse]

@@hpa101 True 🙂👍

[@ben7020]

Thanks for covering this so well and explaining that this street car has a different approach than a drag car. 👍

[@Tomisuperwar]

As a r33 gtr owner this information is really, really helpfull! Soon I'll be aproaching the mapping myself on an elite 2500 with hopefully, a good end result with the knowledge adquired!

[@gothicpagan.666]

On point as allways. The engine tells you what it wants, it's not interested in what you thing it needs.

[@rileylilwell5201]

The Nz wiring kits are awesome! Well worth it if you have an ecu that can handle it, and generally easier and cheaper to find that an other factory cas if yours dies🤙🏼

[@nismofreak33]

god damn that 34 is nice! rides that surge line a little bit haha

[@Jochenrh]

I'm sure the new trigger also helps finding a little bit of power as it defines engine position a bit more exact, giving the opportunity to run a better timing.

[@richieduck67]

Love watching these thanks for sharing will you do one on the R35?

[@hpa101]

If the chance pops up locally to make some more R35 content I'm sure we will. Anything in particular you want to know about them that we haven't covered previously on the channel? - Taz.

[@BourneThisWay]

13:30 That’s what Japanese tuners do. Sticking to traditions.

[@geoffreymoulton5707]

From my experience this is a little misleading of AFR increasing power, I have found that the ignition control that you have changed would more likely to be where the increase in power would have come from not the fuel, but yes moving from 12AFR to 11.5AFR can reduce some light knock , but I have found only minor changes in power (without knock) with AFR changes between 12.5-11.5AFR, Triggering systems on an RB is where I have found one of the biggest power gains, the cheap option you showed does help a lot but triggering still floats (I understand cost) but still a lot better than the stock CAS, crank trigger and CAS sync is the way to go. Three major changes here to achieve increase in power and reliability, Replacing the 20 year old aftermarket ECU with one of the better current technology aftermarket ECU's available, changing the triggering system, Getting rid of those 30 year old air flow meters. This is the Email that I received: Is This The Biggest Mistake Tuners Make? ❌ What is one of the biggest mistakes both professional and amateur tuners make when setting AFR targets? This lightly modified RB26 powered Nissan R34 GTR Skyline made 485whp with light knock occurring at 22-23 psi, and with only minimal changes planned it was expected to make LESS power to ensure reliability. By taking the time to check what AFR targets suit this specific setup rather than assuming what has worked for one RB26 tune will work for all, the result was an increase of power to 528whp at the same boost level, with no knock. In this Tech Talk, Andre explains why this was possible. He dives into why some tuners wouldn't find this power, along with the causes of knock and where they sat regarding this specific project. Also discussed are the Z32 airflow meters that were fitted in Japan, along with their removal, and the upgrading of the trigger system without breaking the bank (as if you own a recently purchased R34 GTR these days, no doubt your account is already pretty empty!). Watch Video I'm not challenging this teams tuning ability in any way, HP academy is great and I find them helpful, as there has been no real training for tuners so most of us tuners have self taught until HP academy came along,I personally fully recommend them. Keep up the good work

[@SuddothMediaHD]

I just got an elite 2000 for my R34 GTR, no plans yet for a trigger kit but this 4d tuning map sounds interesting but im afraid my tuner wont use it. thats why i got the 2000, unless you think the 2500 is a must get for a little more $ lmk

[@hpa101]

Best thing to do is to simply chat to your tuner about this. I'd watch this video (link below) first so you have a fair idea of what is happening and why, and it will also help you figure out if there is anything your tuner is saying that you should be alarmed about/make you walk away or the opposite where you might gain a lot more confidence you have chosen the right person for the job - kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4nZiZmOaLaborc&ab_channel=HighPerformanceAcademy I'd have a quick chat to your tuner and Haltech about the 2000 vs 2500 for your application too. Off the cuff it does look like the 2500 might be a better option, but really it is something you're best to get advice on from a few difference sources - Taz.

[@dartagnancarter1585]

I am no expert efi tuner just experienced with mechanical and carb tuning. Everyone seems to always relate lean condition to knock issues. There are lots more negative effects than this. Higher NOT can damage cooling systems, intake and exhaust valves and seats can be damaged, forged pistons possibly expand larger? Bores and rings mirror and wear quicker? The list goes on. I think about o2 sensors failing faster than normal? I belive if you are running some exhausts too hot you can harden hangers welds and bolts and these can then break easily?

[@juiceman4211]

Man you real knowledgeable....nice job

[@Mr16bit]

500whp in an r34 unopened largely is nothing to sneeze at! Its got to be an 11 second car with that sort of power.

[@BjornFSE]

THat's awesome, great video & explanations. brings some interesting clarity

[@daneprostamo-brown6552]

This is what I want to put in my series 2 C34 Stagea. The KV8 would shit all over my current Nistune for a plethora of reasons including what you outlined with the addition of a vast amount of engine protection features that it possesses. How straight forward was the integration with factory attesa ets-pro or for example a full race ETS-pro controller? Is it still just as simple as spicing into the TPS signal +ve?

[@nightkids7163]

cam belt whip still a problem with that trigger setup. you're still getting your engine position from the cam...

[@manitoublack]

Also was I hearing Compressor surge at 13:58 - 14:00?

[@kovarikma]

Definitely!

[@greggreg6975]

Yup!

[@greggreg6975]

@@TomBudin I thought it was the same thing, just happening at a different time? Please explain mate.

[@nismofreak33]

@@TomBudin no

[@nismofreak33]

@@greggreg6975for the most part compressor surge is basically when the turbo is flowing more air than the engine can swallow and thus relieves itself back through the compressor. Bad cases can cause severe damage to the turbocharger bearings due to the shock of loading up, unloading, and loading back up over and over again. The more common surge, frequently known and flutter or dose, is basically the same thing, just less damaging, its basically just a case of you being on boost, then suddenly snapping the throttle shut, the turbo is still making a little bit of boost due to the latency of the system. That air has to go somewhere, usually out a blow of valve, or back through the turbo compressor. Thankfully the turbo is also spinning down at the same time so the shock isnt as violent. The noise is litterally the sound of the pressure waves releasing and being chopped up by the compressor. If you actually stick a gauge on the compressor housing you can see it happening. The pressure will go down, then hang, then reduce, then hang, then reduce etc until the pressure differential is gone. In the case of this video, the surge could also be caused by the twin turbo setup. Its a common thing on GTRs, or anything twin turbo feeding a common pipe really. Most likely due the piping and the turbos chosen. At certain loads the turbos will sort of "trade blows" with each other. One will surge, then the other will, and so on and so forth. hope this helps lol

[@Andrew260RS]

Awesome video. Can’t wait to install my 1000cc injectors in my GTR. Question: why does the NZwiring not work on some ECU. I have a Haltech Platinum Pro and it’s not compatible but the elite is. Not really sure why.

[@burn4005]

You have limited trigger patterns available on the platinum pro as it's designed for stock plug and play. The trigger pattern of a cam 24-1 is not available in this ECU. However a 12 tooth crank with a separate home trigger is.

[@Andrew260RS]

@@burn4005 Yes your correct. I could buy a PRP trigger kit. But like Andre suggested the cost is huge. I have been searching far and wide trying to find a affordable replacement solution. I even thought about upgrading to the Haltech elite series ECU just for the NZ trigger kit but don't really want to spend $1000 in order to buy a cheap trigger kit. That would defeat the purpose of saving money. I might just run the stock CAS and limit the RPM to 7000RPM until I find a solution. I even thought about manufacturing my own. I don't know if I can copy NZwirings trigger design but use 2x sensors instead of one. 1x sensor for position and the other sensor for homing. Not sure if this would be possible. This is only a 500hp street car.

[@davey_projects2977]

Very nice. The 24-1 on cam is interesting. Might be a better option for converting my engine to full sequential without needing 2 sensors. One day. In the last dyno run, what do you think the little bit of turbo flutter sound is at 13:59?

[@nicoleibundgut534]

I was suprised that Knock accured at 480hp with 100 octane. I mean there are running alot of rb26 engines with higher powerlevels with pumpgas. My saab 9-5 Troll is running at 10.7 at the revlimitier.

[@hpa101]

As explained in the video, this was due to the initial lean AFR - Andre

[@richa7263]

Great video. Loved the super in depth explanation of what you want to achieve with the car and how youre going about it. Roughly what are R34's going for in NZ these days? I'd ask my brother who lives down the road in Wanaka but he doesn't have a clue about cars lol.

[@BC-1983]

$150k nzd - $300k nzd depending on condition and if it's a private sale or car dealership. Upper end values are sub 100,000km examples from dealerships who are also selling r32 and r33 models for around $100k mark. Privately value for money much better, but very few for sale or high ks.

[@richa7263]

@@BC-1983 thanks for the reply mate.

[@stangetz7838]

I kinda heard a turbo surge noise on the last dyno video!? Thanks for sharing!

[@dx4picco650]

I was going to comment the same thing, at about 14 minutes in the video

[@luker3456]

Sounds like turbo shuffle, very common on upgraded twin turbos and just kind of a feature

[@hpa101]

Hey team, actually no, you're not hearing compressor surge during that dyno run. What you're hearing instead is the boost control solenoid venting the air from the wastegates back to atmosphere. It's a pet hate of mine and normally I plumb the vent side of the solenoid back to the air intake which silences the noise. That's not possible with the current boost controller though. Basically how this works is that the solenoid pulses at perhaps 20-30 Hz and vents boost pressure off the wastegate actuators to control boost. Depending on the duty cycle and frequency this can become more or less prominent (you notice higher in the rpm range the noise goes away as the duty cycle changes). Surge is a very real issue but not one we should come across with well matched turbos at WOT (particularly given how laggy these turbos are). Surge under WOT on the dyno is also incredibly violent and you would feel it (usually you'd abort the run) and at minimum see it in the shape of the dyno plot - Andre

[@stangetz7838]

@@hpa101 Sorry, I just dot' think so

[@hpa101]

@@stangetz7838 why not? Given the limited information you have from this video, and Andre's explanation as someone who physically is working and tuning the car why do you think differently? Give us your 'data' to discuss :) - Taz.

[@stephenthompson9722]

With Nitro RC cars all the tuning is done based on how the engine responds, amount of revs, sound and how much smoke the engine produces. Do car tuners ever listen and get a feel for how a car tuned or is only looking at Data?

[@dj4monie]

It's not an RC single cylinder engine. Data is more reliable. Especially with unleaded fuels.

[@sircefiro]

Have you noticed much difference between the 100 octane & 98?

[@dstirls7089]

Was there a bit of turbo shuffle or surge at 13:57?

[@hpa101]

It's the boost control solenoid venting the air from the wastegates back to atmosphere. No time to sort right now, but it's a pet hate and will be rectified - Andre.

[@tabryis]

More vids liek this!!!!! Your views and view lengthvwill *explode* I promise you.

[@burn4005]

why on earth would you run an EBC when you've got a KV8 in the car?

[@hpa101]

Simply time limitations. We will integrate boost control into the KV8 at a later point - Andre

[@jobijon80]

Any idea of the ig timing at wot?

[@Takeitlightly6]

Ok is it G reddy or greddy?

[@hpa101]

GReddy I thought, but might as well just cover all the bases where possible? 😅

[@curvs4me]

What a car!! I'm drooling on myself. Great catch on that AFR change additional near 50hp is noticeable on the butt dyno lol.

[@ryanc4756]

How is the CAS considered an upgrade? You've reduced the resolution by 6 X and with a good ECU the OEM CAS works very well. Adaptronic posted a video specifically addressing how going to a 24-1 on this application greatly reduces resolution. The link is here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/laSodaiEfNOFgaM

[@burn4005]

It kinda is due to eliminating the keyway drive of the camshaft. This removes a component of the "wobble", with the cam belt elasticity providing the rest. The OEM trigger becomes a more significant issue when the keyway for the cam becomes worn and backlash occurs. I've got a 36 tooth crank trigger and the ECU reports a 3 degree scatter of the cam driven home signal relative to the crank in the logs at high loads. An effective 12 crank teeth is fine resolution wise for a high speed motor such as an rb26. Was good enough for Honda in their k series!

[@hpa101]

Sadly a good ECU and the stock CAS actually doesn't work very well, particularly once you add aftermarket cams. I've probably tuned a couple hundred RB and SR engines by now and I'm very well versed with the shortcomings of the stock CAS. There's levels to this and some ECUs admittedly do a better job than others but simply looking at the rpm trace through a ramp run on a dyno will show you just how poorly the stock CAS works even if it's not immediately apparent from the engine operation. Ultimately the proof is in the outcome and I've used trigger systems like this on multiple occasions to turn an engine that was completely untunable into one that performs flawlessly. Is it as good as a crank trigger? - No. Is it better than the stock CAS? - 100% There's also a lot of confusion about how much resolution the ECU needs to do a good job and Nissan's 360 sensor is borderline ridiculous and complete overkill (they must have figured this out as their newer engines have reverted to lower resolution trigger systems). Look at what some OE's deem acceptable like Mitsubishi which essentially only provide 4 engine speed inputs per engine revolution with excellent results. With low resolution like this you may expect to see small timing movements at very low rpm but as soon as the rpm rises the timing is rock solid. Personally I tend to aim for a minimum of 12 teeth per crank revolution which coincidentally is exactly what this option provides - Andre

[@stevenb3851]

Is knock a must stay away from thing? I thought it's not so much of an issue if your ecu can react to pull timing if needed?

[@manitoublack]

Spends +100k on R34GTR ~$2500 on Emtron $? on getting HPA to wire it in ~$2250 on Greddy intake kit But then decides that $1000AUD ((~1100NSD) for a new Ross balancer and crank trigger mount is just too much🤔? (+install a $50 AEM single slot trigger wheel on the cam as a home using the oem optical sensor) Even using the AEM disc alone (it's actually a 24+1 disc, but when used with a crank trigger, you only wire up the home signal) at $50 will give the same results as the NZ-Wiring kit for $350 less if money was actaully tight.

[@AlistairLattimore]

After giving both kidneys and a left nut to get the R34 GT-R in the first place, guess the owner didn’t want to part with the last nut or take out a second mortgage 😂

[@burn4005]

I did pretty much this. Im using a 1000hp ATI balancer with a 36-2 wheel welded to the hub and a ZF hall sensor for the crank and the stock optical CAS with the AEM 24+1 wheel with only the +1 sensor wired to the ECU. the ecu reports a 3 degree scatter in the crank reference relative to the home (timing of the home isn't important) but putting your crank sensor on the cam like this kit does means you're leaving 2-3 degrees of timing on the table. I'd pay $1000 to get 3 degrees more ignition timing at 25psi any day!

[@manitoublack]

@@burn4005 I went witht he ross balancer kit on both my SR20 and CA18DET. Don't want to trust a 20-30 year old elastomer balancer when ringing the cow bell. Some times it's worth saving a few $$, in this case it seems as if a better solution was on the table at a relativly small price increase

[@burn4005]

@@manitoublack unfortunately I'm ringing the cowbell a little too loudly (550awkw) for a Ross without going to a race or gold, then requiring an aircon recation kit + associated fan clearance issues that go with it. I understand ross have re-engineered their balancers in the last few years but a string of problems in previous generations spitting belts due to alignment problems did enough reputational damage for me to avoid them. the rebuild interval on an 1500hp ATI is 10 years, and i'd be replacing a ross after that period anyway due to the properties of the bonding rubber changing over that period. the ATI is just 3 bolts, pull shell and replace the elastomers with a 40 USD kit.

[@kaisuhina8024]

How the hell can you spend 100k on r34?

[@goldar4846]

You speak too slow. I waited so long for you to complete your sentences, I died.