The Breakthrough Phase

[@dbuck1964]

It’s not about the experiences, it’s about the craving and attachment. Great video.

[@TukenNuken]

I generally have these weird energetic experiences in the body after eating a giant bowl of beans

[@dinninfreeman2014]

I belive the scientific term is called gass

[@gregjustsitting]

I had an enlightenment experience when I was 24 and I chased a repeat of it till I was 39. In a sense I am still SEEKING a repeat, but now I am settled that it will never happen again. I am now 70. Only a complete letting go of that EXPERIENCE can set me free, that may even be my second satori. My end of seeking. Thanks for your vids

[@HardcoreZen]

You can hang on to these things for a very long time.

[@romanryunin487]

If you want to repeat an enlightenment experience, then it wasn't enlightenment experience. True enlightenment experience means you see there was never any enlightenment experience necessary as everything and everyone already is enlightened.

[@lopezb]

@@romanryunin487 Yes, but over years of sitting maybe we start to realize that we have been chasing the wrong rabbit all along. There are no shortcuts. Which is of course the shortcut. Suzuki Roshi talks about the "way upward" and "way downward"....our practice seems to involve both....

[@ZenAndPsychedelicHealingCenter]

@@romanryunin487 Sounds good in theory but, in real life, people do tend to chase after their first awakening experience. It's a normal, human thing to do but tends to get in the way sometimes of solid daily practice.

[@romanryunin487]

@@Bradtheartguy Depends what you mean by that.

[@pajamawilliams9847]

Brad, this spot on and perfectly in line with what I've been learning over the last year. Maybe youll never see this comment, but I'm sure You've seen some of the embarrassing comments ive left a while back. This is a bit reason why a teacher is important and, as i havent had one, you were that force that pushed me back from all that spiritual ego. So thanks!

[@amysherman1258]

"Eventually it's gonna be the Gene Simmons tape..." Bwhaha! I need that on a t-shirt. Thank you.

[@Yeti_Boop]

I've never had those experiences except for when I was on acid... BUT, thanks to Brad and other zen authors I've read over the years I know that's not "it". It was just a weird, cool experience. I'm so thankful I have people like Brad Warner to let me know it was just another experience. So, videos like this do help people.

[@Yeti_Boop]

And I'm not being sarcastic. I do mean what I said. I recently did take it again, and I realized halfway through, eh.. I'm just high. That's all it is. Sure it's fun, and there are cool colors and mind bending experiences.. but that's not why I do zen. I do zen to see my ordinary life for what it is. No amount of acid will give you that. So, thanks Brad.

[@HardcoreZen]

Thanks! I appreciate your comment.

[@InnerRevolutionProject]

completely agree! Thanks Brad for taking a strong stand here

[@SaxonShore]

"When you get the message, hang up the phone." - Ram Dass

[@dbuck1964]

Outstanding quote!

[@lopezb]

Just read your Tricycle piece. Great article, that says it all and is a great encouragement to just "shut up and sit down". Which I will do right now!!!

[@MakeDemocracyMagnificientAgain]

One of the most important videos you've ever made, Brad!

[@jacobhoppen1964]

Loved this video. Spot on, and cracked me up. Thank you.

[@AlexReyn888]

When you get tired of looking for something special, you notice that there is nothing special around. And that's exactly what you were trying to find. There is nothing wrong with mystical states, if they come naturally - don't push them away, if they leave - don't cling to them, don't try to repeat anything. In that case, they can be something like a temporary medicine for you. It is foolish to cling to the sunlight, forgetting about the sun itself. But there is no need to reject sunlight either.

[@cryo115]

My breakthrough "wizz bang, I'm a mask that all reality wears" experience eventually lead to a horrible super alienated experience. I thought that whole "at ease, nothing to gain, nothing to lose" feeling was the point and that I could stay there. In a reply on some platform, you (Brad) said "It's never going to happen again" and even though I kinda knew that, I didn't like it. 3 years later, I've started sitting again but just because it helps a bit day to day. No more wizz bangs for me.

[@HardcoreZen]

Good for you!

[@tankofun]

i have a peculiar question, cryo... had you ever come in contact with some "master" or someone like that prior to your "wizz bang" experience, a teacher on a meditation retreat for example? i am asking because i am starting to believe that for the awakening experience, people need external intervention - in Christendom, you got the apostles" laying on hand" to pass on the "Spirit", in buddhism / on retreats, the masters/teachers "initiate" people into meditation.. in yogic traditions, gurus also pass on something with some weird initiations! so.. I wanna know, whether it is absolutely required or whether someone can awaken all by himself. even buddha did not awaken by himself, he had 2 masters, who probably at one point in time, cracked his "shell" (skandhas) to help him awaken later on... i don't wanna get in touch with any masters, i wanna know whether its possible to do by my own or whether i am wasting my time here.

[@Bradtheartguy]

I had an ' enlightenment experience' about 5 years ago. Absolute certainty, and peace. Feeling like I remembered something I had always known. I thought I was an all knowing sage or something. Turns out it didn't give me any helpful practical knowledge at all. A lot of people think it will give them mastery over their minds, but it doesn't make you a psychology expert anymore than it makes you a computer expert.

[@HardcoreZen]

That sounds about right.

[@eriklares90]

I have been interested in Buddhism for a while, and as I have researched it, I have gravitated towards Zen more and more. As I have been trying to find out more, I have been trying change myself. In short, I was unhappy with myself and have spent the past several years trying to be a more compassionate human being. Anyways, I have been reading Hardcore Zen, and in the part in which you are talking your first enlightenment experience resonated. I haven't maintained a regular practice with Zazen, but through chipping away at the negative aspects of my personality, taking time to understand why I react to situations the way I do and, in short, chipping away at my ego, I feel as though I have had, if not an enlightenment experience, I have had a similar experience in which it seems everything I was striving for, trying to understand myself and other people to bring peace to myself and others sort of just... clicked. One day, after about 6 years of trying to better myself (2 years ago), I just felt different, somehow more in tune to the world around me. Anyway, I just wanted to share. I thought it was interesting I got to that part of the book today (which made me think about when my perspective suddenly changed) and saw this video. Thank you for helping to make Zen practice so easily digestible!

[@HardcoreZen]

Thanks Erik!

[@jiiiiim_xyz]

I realise this video is 6 years old now but It really struck a chord for a few reasons. Going through a pretty difficult time in life currently and I'm wondering if it's the flip side of a previous 'blissful' time, or a pre cursor to a 'blissful' time. But one thing I do notice is that I'm always more committed to daily meditation when I'm having 'bad' times in life, probably as I'm trying to escape the bad times and I'm never trying to escape the good times. But I would love to see a video of how time works :) (I'm sure it's existing already.. I'll have a hunt)

[@thegline]

This is one of the things I look most for when I bump into someone billed as any kind of spiritual teacher: What kind of relationship do they have to "peak experiences" or "joy"? If they're promoting something that promises to turn your life into never-ending fun and joy, that's suspect. Nobody can give you that, because then it'll be THEIR joy, not yours. Oh, if you do a piece on time being funky, def. read Carlo Rovelli's books on the subject. They're short but mind-boggling in the best way.

[@czitek1]

Great video. I going back to it. Listened again... Very helpfull. Thx

[@dannymartin6447]

Good post. Sounds like a "middle way" reminder.

[@Nate_Higgins]

An important point. These experiences eventually just become another attachment. Maybe that's why they're important.

[@dbuck1964]

Theravada and Vajrayana monks actually, practice creating and sustaining these types of experiences, called Jana’s, in part for developing deep, concentration and focus in the mind, and also for the practice of continually not attaching, which is what allows them to remain.

[@AJ-ch3pk]

We certainly share very close opinions on the use of drugs and how that relates to Zen practice. I think the most important thing is not lying to oneself, which I hate seeing others doing. If ones drug use is recreation, just call it what it is, what's the problem? Neither advocating nor discouraging. Neither praising nor blaming. I really do have qualms with messages either anti-drug use or pro-drug use.

[@djmileski]

What u said about the unnoticed other side of bliss is akin to the middle way (neither what is thought nor the opposite) and Tao te Ching opposite dependence. Appreciate that as well. The motorcycle sound made me think u had an epic soundtrack bleeding in lol

[@lopezb]

Thank you, Brad, for clearing out the garbage! "It's not good for you, it's really not good for you!"

[@arthurscargill8010]

I'll be honest, I didn't see the Gene Simmons Sex Tape plot twist coming.

[@mmore242]

That's equinimity you're talking about. "Even all the time".

[@garad123456]

One thing I'd like to hear comment from you to is physical transformation of the body. So, I had a "spiritual breakthrough" if you will, after being seriously troubled for six months. But what is going on after that for 2,5 years now has been a very distinct changing process in my body. It's VERY tangible. I can feel it in simple things such as how I get up from bed and how my bodily strength/fatigue etc works. Also its very apparent in my jaws and neck and back. There are different phases to it that cycle on somewhat weekly rhythm, sometimes I feel a kind of "pressure" in my back, or certain kind of pain, tensions, or other things. These cycle back and forth, and every now and then I can clearly notice how the muscle system in my body has sort of unified or retrained itself. This also positively affects things like sexuality and eating etc. Only time I heard a spiritual teacher talk of this was Adyashanti when he said that for a good 4 years his body went through formidable changing & reordering. Can you relate to my experience?

[@HardcoreZen]

Interesting. I have not noticed anything similar with myself. Although I did notice that my vision seemed to get clearer and I seemed to be aware of sensations that I had not been aware of before. Nothing approaching anything like supernatural senses or that sort of thing. It was just all more acute. I remember looking at the very subdued browns and grays of the decor at Zen temples in Japan. And I thought, "This makes sense. To anyone who has done this practice long enough, these muted colors are much easier to take." Bright, colorful, or excessively noisy places are hard on the senses.

[@DuaneToops]

I'm not sure I've a had an actual breakthrough experience but, I've definitely had periods where my practice felt like it was really clicking, I felt like I was really moving forward, really making progress, and didn't realize how caught up in that feeling I got until my practice started to feel like it hit a wall. I found myself struggling and striving to get back to that 'feeling' of everything being good. I'm kind of going through that now as well, lol. So thanks for this!

[@HardcoreZen]

Yeah. Ultimately there's no such thing as "progress." It's an illusion. Sure, if you compare this moment you're actually experiencing right now to a your (always inaccurate & incomplete) memories of a moment the past and then set up some imaginary metric by which to judge them relative to each other, you can say "progress" has happened. But that's only a way of thinking about things. It's not how things actually are. This moment is exactly what it is. Comparisons with other moments are just thoughts.

[@DuaneToops]

@@HardcoreZen I totally agree. The 'goal-less-ness' and the 'progress-less-ness' of practice is something that is easy to 'know intellectually but, it's much more difficult, (for me at least) to 'know it emotionally, psychologically, or existentially. It's one thing to say it's another thing to genuinely accept it, or to genuinely believe it, lol. In my case, it's usually when my practice has entered a kind of dry spell that I begin to see how many 'goals I still have hidden away and how attached to the idea of 'progress I still am, lol.

[@alexhristov1167]

You are killing all my spiritual dreams.

[@CrawlingAxle]

It seems like these experiences are the goal of Sanbo and Rinzai schools. Am I wrong?

[@bw4025]

I am not sure that peak experiences hold us back. Generally, a peak experience is met with gratitude and the realization is added to other peak experiences: like a configuration in the mind and heart, an accumulation of light, that is then carried outward: perhaps as accumulated merit. It is tested in our interactions with others. You are a fine teacher: I am also not so sold on 'bliss': every peak experience that I have had, arises out of a deeply sorrowful state. i also agree with your comment on the drug experience. very sober.

[@blorkpovud1576]

13:36 Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance.

[@ou-rb2gv]

I like this version of the Heart Sutra; The Heart of Prajna Paramita Sutra Translated by Tang Dharma Master of the Tripitaka Hsüan-Tsang on imperial command. When Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva was practicing the profound prajna paramita, he illuminated the five skandhas and saw that they are all empty, and he crossed beyond all suffering and difficulty. Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness; emptiness does not differ from form. Form itself is emptiness; emptiness itself is form. *So, too, are feeling, cognition, formation, and consciousness.* *Shariputra, all dharmas are empty of characteristics.* They are not produced. Not destroyed, not defiled, not pure, and they *neither increase nor diminish.* Therefore, *in emptiness there is no form, feeling, cognition, formation, or consciousness; no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, or mind; no sights, sounds, smells, tastes, objects of touch, or dharmas; no field of the eyes, up to and including no field of mind-consciousness;* and no ignorance or ending of ignorance, up to and including no old age and death or ending of old age and death. There is no suffering, *no accumulating, no extinction, no way, and no understanding and no attaining.* Because *nothing is attained,* the Bodhisattva, through reliance on prajna paramita, is unimpeded in his mind. Because there is no impediment, he is not afraid, and *she leaves distorted dream-thinking far behind. Ultimately Nirvana!* *All Buddhas of the three periods of time attain Anuttarasamyaksambodhi* through reliance on prajna paramita. Therefore, know that prajna paramita is a great spiritual mantra, a great bright mantra, a supreme mantra, an unequalled mantra. It can remove all suffering; it is genuine and not false. That is why the mantra of prajna paramita was spoken. Recite it like this: Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha! Copyright © Buddhist Text Translation Society Proper Use, Terms, & Conditions.

[@quitschiek5038]

I still don't get how some Soto adherents can be so ignorant of the whole zen history which is full of stories of adepts who went through a breakthrough experience. Even Keizan Jokin's Denkoroku is. It's another thing if we believe those experiences or e.g. see them as just another illusion of the mind. But for so many - at least in retrospect - they were defining moments in their life. If advice against overdoing anything is justified, it should always include any Buddhist practice, including zazen. No word about that in the video above. It is the typical blindness of a certain zen school. Of course you can overdo sitting and indulging in Dôgen's worldview as you can overdo sex or other habits. And of course can very extreme feelings be worthwhile and beat the "middle ground" or way, as well as extremely unpleasant lessons are naturally avoided. To be able to stay serene is nice, not to be open to the strong emotions of life - especially after you have reached the ground of serenity - is in my eyes a mistake. No one who has seen through things must be afraid to go to those extremes, not the ones which are normally avoided nor the pleasant ones. If s.o. claims to have had an awakening experience, the question for me is simply if it shows in his life in terms of non-attachment. This was also taught in Zen from the early Chan days on, it means to see if you are able to drop any attachments even to zen dogma and even zazen. If you can't handle zazen freely (applying the meditating mind without being dependent on sitting), you will simply state that it handles you and that "zazen is doing itself" to avoid being found out having one or the other "addiction" left. It is a matter of rhetorics. The best way to handle kensho or satori experiences, if there are any that may seem to be such, is for me what a zen master recommended (and goes well with Dôgen, I believe): To see your own life as a lifelong kôan. So where I agree is: Whatever strange and eyeopening experience you had, life goes on and requires your personal answer, day by day.

[@kirtundercoffer7655]

Comment on ~9:17 : individual enlightenment experiences are not annutara-samyak-sambodhi otherwise he wouldn't "lose them" and we wouldn't try to "get them back". Most enlightenment experiences that people talk about do have some insight but these don't result in unsurpassed wisdom or the ability to rest and function all the time from that wisdom. Which they would if they really were complete and unsurpassed enlightenment.

[@HardcoreZen]

I doubt that! Even the Buddha didn't claim he could do that trick.

[@barence321]

Not being able to rest and function from wisdom may actually be resting and functioning from wisdom.

[@ou-rb2gv]

The body is not the mind, otherwise, the body would never fail you.

[@SinorBlim]

I really don't know what I'm doing. I've been practicing for almost 5 years. And I have yet to "breakthrough".

[@blorkpovud1576]

I hope it's been otherwise beneficial.

[@SinorBlim]

@@blorkpovud1576 oh it has. Absolutely

[@barence321]

Just go straight "don't know," for 10,000 years nonstop. -- Zen Master Seung Sahn.

[@sceptre1067]

meanwhile so distracted by your bookshelf. :-) in a good way. reminds me of browsing a local indy sf/f bookstore here.

[@HardcoreZen]

I've got a problem when it comes to books. Many of the books you see behind me were hard to come by.

[@timothykent7285]

Do you know anything about the connection between Steve Jobs and Zen? I was reading somewhere he practiced and was close to Kobun Chino.

[@CaridadeCaio]

Great video, thank you! Should I read Harcore Zen or I had better read the second one first?

[@MartinSnyman]

What is your favourite horror movie? Thank you for this and for leaving the motorcycle mechanic in the video published (very Zen of you).

[@HardcoreZen]

I watch a lot of science fiction films, but not many horror films. My girlfriend likes horror films. She showed my Child's Play and some of the other Chucky films. I liked those.

[@djmileski]

Not to state the obvious but I have noticed that my expectations (especially of a break thru phase per si) is the antithesis/“preventer” of what seems to be the true meaning of all this subject. Even saying preventer implies a breakthrough phase in the future. Obviously tricky to talk about. Some times I feel like Austin powers on this stuff

[@AJ-ch3pk]

I do think enlightenment experiences should decrease a certain addiction to the acquisition of it, though. The more you've got it, the less you "want it", kind of thing. I think that's kind of the point. I think your observation of this person you're speaking of could very well be true, though. These might be the kind of people that think they've "got it" after they've had this experience, then quit practice, when the experience actually calls for the opposite course of action. They've experience, but they haven't learned. Maybe post-kensho practice is this learning. They've plucked their fruit upon sprouting, before it's had time to ripen. Ashame. The learning is the greatest gift.

[@InnerRevolutionProject]

great video! thanks Brad (:

[@ou-rb2gv]

I think to know that you're on right path, is to intuitively know that you've "attained" a non- discriminatory mind. Sometime you hear Linji/Rinzai teachers say things like, "What good is zazen?" It's true to some degree. What does the mind rest upon? What is it hinged upon? If nothing is attained, "How can there be a path?" It's a good point. Yet, how will you "obtain" this non- discriminatory mind? How can you grasp "It?" Sometimes you hear Linji/Rinzai guys say things like, "I don't know my own enlightenment." That's because it's not a mind that's *settled* for things like bodily sensations. The mind exists, resting upon nothing. "When it halts, that is enlightenment." (-VM XuYun.(

[@ou-rb2gv]

Conversely, if you don't know your own enlightenment, of what use was it to you or anyone. *BOTH STATEMENTS ARE TRUE.* how can you fathom it?

[@blorkpovud1576]

Ok it's settled. The next video will be about time.

[@HardcoreZen]

Oh boy. It's a tough one!

[@blorkpovud1576]

Probably in proportion to how interesting the subject matter is, so all good!

[@RatzRatzRatz]

yes - not attachment - this applies to all states of mind…

[@derris3989]

thanks brad. bless you.

[@HardcoreZen]

Thank you!

[@danielpinojr.8312]

With my "goal-less" practice, I do not look toward having a "break-through" phase. The very act of Zazen, is a breakthrough! 🕉#TimeIsWeird 😄

[@HardcoreZen]

True!

[@ou-rb2gv]

Wow. You guys settle cheap.

[@djmileski]

Seeking something secretly implies fear of the very opposite. Seeking enlightenment (supreme achievement) secretly implies all the extreme fears (failures) happening. Aka extreme misery?

[@djmileski]

I agree with u and appreciate your sincerity on these “things”. Yet, (sincere question) why do u sit in Zazen then?

[@HardcoreZen]

Honestly, it gets harder and harder to answer that question as the years of sitting zazen every day pass. Initially I did it because I wanted to see what meditation was. Then I read some stuff about enlightenment and I wanted that. Then I realized I wasn't gonna get that kind of enlightenment. But I also noticed that sitting was a good thing for me to do. So I kept doing it. These days doing zazen is like brushing my teeth in the morning. I don't like to go out and face the world without doing it.

[@pandaprrr995]

Man great lecture. Do one on time as well please 😇

[@HardcoreZen]

I'll think some about it. Buddhist ideas of time is (are?) a hard subject.

[@GardeTsangmo]

Buddhist Pal...much better than some who call themselves masters :D , thanks for your videos, Brad, I love your bookshelf!

[@HardcoreZen]

Thanks. That bookshelf is the reason I can never move again.

[@rnunezc.4575]

Any spiritual practice that it's goal becomes enlightment , what ever that means , as a higher level or enlighten person to be which is above reality is imo off. For me elightment if understood as accepting simple reality just as it is with the ups and downs centered more in the present that's all there is..but a main change I had in my life these last decades is the feeling towards the living conscious universe especially plants and animals.

[@markbrad123]

Country is the best for enlightening experiencing. With enough varied activities doubt one will ever get bored. And also just consider how less you suffer compared to the old way of thought exaggerated self identified being.

[@fraktaalimuoto]

Question. Your description of dealing with bliss sounds like active suppression. Am I understanding you approach wrong? While I generally speaking agree what you say, that one particular matter felt a bit off. Might be just that how I heard it, but just trying to get helpful clarification.

[@umeahalla]

Also wonder about that, wouldnt it be more the interpretations of the thoughts and feelings, rather than the actual feeling that would cause the more trouble?

[@HardcoreZen]

It's not quite suppression. It's more like letting go.

[@HardcoreZen]

Yeah. The thought "Oh! This is good!" can make you want to try to extend a feeling that actually needs to do its thing and then fade away.

[@fraktaalimuoto]

@@HardcoreZen Thank you Brad for clarification! :)

[@adamJKpunk]

Hardcore Zen simultaneously saved and destroyed my life. I spent far too much time in Ohio.

[@HardcoreZen]

Some people can deal with Ohio longterm. I admire those people. Seriously. I couldn't do it.

[@TaraBaileyTgirl]

Full disclosure I've studied with vince and his wife Emily on there mindfulness courses on mediate io. and this video is very much part of a bigger system which the gole or endpoint in equanimity. Its a reworking of and old theravada system dating back to the visuddimagga but built upon by Mahasi Sayadaw. The Mahasi tradition vince comes from is very conserned with these stages of insight as knowing the teratory can help you get unstuck after a big insight experience. I think in this case you took vince out of context and missed the point. That may be because of the way these videos are delivered as stand alone pieces with little explanation as to the purpose of knowing the insight stages. And no I don't do drugs I took precepts from bhante bodhidharma before you ask 😜

[@HardcoreZen]

Thank you. That's interesting. I don't know a whole lot about Theravada. But I'm always suspicious of assigning concepts like "stages" to these things. I'm not sure that really makes sense. Though I understand that maybe this is just the way this tradition deals with things.

[@TaraBaileyTgirl]

@@HardcoreZen definitely zen Buddhism in has quite the opposite approach to Theravada and the Mahasi tradition especially. Interestingly you see a lot of teachers switch between these two traditions. Zen practitioners who give up zen for a supper structured approach where you always know what too do and what stage you are at. Bhante Bodhidharma is one of these. And on the other side many Mahasi people find eventually that zen practice is simply less necrotic and there is a richness and depth to "don't know mind" that is more rewarding than the Mahasi style. Personly I think it's about finding a balence between discriminating wisdom and bieng open too that "beginners mind" for lack of a better term.

[@ou-rb2gv]

I feel bad... Should I? Whatever happened to not being a jerk?

[@HardcoreZen]

You should not feel bad.

[@alienbynight8843]

Where does "enlightenment is a tangerine!" fit in with all this? Im a little confused. It seems true enlightenment is seeing the mystical in the mundane i.e a tangerine. Are you saying theres different kinds of enlightenment some of them being not true enlightenment? And would you say that your tangerine "experience" was alot different than your bridge "experience". Also nishijima likes to say that zazen makes you king of the universe. How does that fit in as well

[@HardcoreZen]

You must read my books! Be careful. It could warp your mind! But, in terms of what I wrote in Hardcore Zen, the experience I wrote about having while crossing a bridge on my way to work is probably something like what Vince Horn is calling "The Breakthrough Phase." Many people would call such an experience an "Enlightenment experience" or "Satori" or "Kensho." Sometimes people try to train themselves to have such experiences. Those kinds of experiences are not necessarily bad or false. They can be very helpful. However, when you start to fetishize such experiences and claim that such experiences are the goal of Zen practice, that's a problem. You can also get attached to such experiences in unhealthy ways. What I was trying to say when I wrote about the tangerine was that each and every moment is the true experience of the enlightened state, even if you don't notice it. Zazen makes you notice that you are the King (or Queen) of the universe. But you also notice that everyone and everything else is also the King/Queen of the universe too.

[@Uji_Metal]

@@HardcoreZen "but you also notice that everyone is king/queen of the universe" Thats the best part. Thats the true treasure. Because of that recognition/sensation that you are not alone. A universal celebration. The universe celebrating the universe. See you can be king of the world, and have all the riches, all the jewels, all the women and all the drugs, but you still feel alone. But to meet the real dragon is another thing, its the true jewel, its what makes the difference between a "king of the unsatisfied world" and a true Zen Gangster.

[@ou-rb2gv]

Does form or emptiness occur separately, or at the same time? Ha! Let's see you prove either...

[@HardcoreZen]

Done!

[@doriuniverse]

Now I have to watch that kiss sex tape for the uninteresting sex. Thank you brad, I appreciated your perspective on avoiding bliss states. Makes sense. Ps. Your thumbnails make me laugh. A tiny bliss state. 😆

[@tanko.spirit7754]

"evened out"... well.. why don't you just say "the middle way"! :P

[@MakeDemocracyMagnificientAgain]

exactly right :P ;D

[@EmeraldLavigne]

* and others

[@gr3108]

I do not agree with you, on the bliss element. In fact it is irrelevant for meditation if you will let it overcome your or try to tone it down. If you are toning it down you are wasting time and mental effort to fight something that is obviously occurring naturally when the mind calms itself down. Secondly at least for me personally I can attest that this state occurs every single time I do a sitting, that is every day, and for the past year I have experienced no negatives. (It is unlike the first breakthrough experience which can inflate your ego and feels really addictive with its "I have to go back there"). Moreover the negative element, as coming down is indeed almost simultaneous but that counts for every pair of pleasure and displeasure, so I see nothing especially dangerous here. From my experience (and no I am not a Buddhist since I do not accept the first noble truth), the bliss with its wavelike pattern carries you more easily to the idea that everything is in fact a subject to change and there is no sorrow but joy in the dissolution itself. Indeed the comparison with orgasm is an acute one. The joy of it is not the prolongation nor in the titillation but at its climax where the union with the partner, the dissolution of the desire in its achievement are one. There is the negation of the ego right there, what gets you addicted is the idea that " the orgasm" is to only way to reach that, whilst in fact it happens as every thought comes into the surface and dissolves back, when it reaches its purpose. There is nothing special in the bliss, nor do I think it should be avoided.